JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on April 12, 2019, 09:11:19 AM
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In an effort to stimulate a more collegiate atmosphere I would like to propose a project that members from all sides can meaningfully contribute.
I suggest we create a timeline (as accurate as possible) for the key movements/events from the time of the assassination until Oswald is charged with Kennedy?s murder.
In order to appear in the timeline/chronology your proposal will need some for of documented substantiation. It may be a specific time or to have occurred between known events.
I am confident the collective intelligence of all members can produce a document of substance and significance. I know the exact time of Tippit's shooting will be contentious but for some we might have to agree to disagree to make any progress.
All times are Dallas (CST).
12.30pm (approximately). JFK and JBC shot in Dealey Plaza.
12.31pm. Decker calls from Car 1, "Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there.""
12.33. Officer Barnett arrives back at front entrance of TSBD after briefly checking rear and fire escape on Houston.
12.34. Officer Haygood was approached by James Tague (hit during the shooting) and a witness who identified the TSBD as the source. "I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top."
Inspector Sawyer arrives at front of TSBD in his car and talks to officers.
Motorcade lead car arrives at Parkland (Lawson).
Sawyer takes two officers and is accompanied by a male TSBD employee (unknown) to the 4th floor via the passenger elevator.
12.35pm. Frazier goes down to the basement to eat lunch.
12.36pm. Sgt.Harkness reports "I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store." The witness was Amos Ewins. Euins goes east in the three-wheeler to the front of the TSBD. He placed Ewins in Sawyer's car and went to the rear of the building.
12.37pm. (?) Truly sees Dougherty working on the 5th floor as he and Baker descend in the east elevator.
12.38pm (?) Truly and Baker briefly talk to Sawyer on the 4th floor as they descend on the east elevator.
12.39pm. Harkness reports to Sawyer who had returned to the front of the TSBD by this time.
12.43pm. Sorrels leaves Parkland in a car with Lumpkin, Turner and Senkel after watching JFK taken into Parkland ED .
12.45pm. From Dispatcher "Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is supposed to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle, - repeat, unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build. No further description at this time or information"
Dispatcher (Murray Jackson) on Channel 1. "87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area." 78 (Tippit) "I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View". 87 (Nelson) "87's going north on Marsalis at R.L. Thornton."
Fritz talks to Curry at Parkland and leaves for TSBD with Sims and Boyd.
Frazier returns to the first floor of the TSBD from the basement.
12.47pm. Dispatcher Channel 1. "Signal 19, involving the President. Suspect: white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty-five pounds, believed to have used 30 caliber rifle. Believed to be in the old School Book Depository, Elm and Houston, at this time."
12.52pm. 87 (Nelson)out down here (TSBD).
12.55pm. Sorrels arrives at TSBD and enters building by rear entrance. Talks to man at loading bay door and moves to front entrance. Asks Truly to prepare manifest of all employees names and addresses. Talks to Howard Brennan at entrance.
12.58pm. Fritz, Sims and Boyd arrive at the TSBD.
1.06pm. Mooney discovers shells and remnants of chicken lunch in the SE 6th floor window of the TSBD. Shortly after calls down to Fritz and Decker on the street below. Gerald Hill, Roger Craig and Officers,McCurdy, Walters and Vickery observe the SN shortly after.
1.07pm. Hill calls down to the street below for the crime lab.
1.09? Hill meets Fritz coming up on the elevator and informs him of the discovery on the 6th floor.
1.12pm. Fritz, Sims and Boyd arrive at the SN.
Hill meets Day on his way into the TSBD, then reports to Sawyer.
The fire truck arrives.
Owens arrives and reports to Sawyer at the TSBD entrance.
1.13pm Montgomery and Johnson arrvive at the SN.
1.15pm. Day and Studebaker arrive at the SN.
1.17pm. TF Bowley, "Hello, police operator?" Dispatcher, "Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio." Citizen, "There's been a shooting out here".
1.20(?) Fritz orders Senkel to collect all those who worked on the 6th floor TSBD and take them to City Hall to provide statements. I place this before the rifle find as Senkel mentions the shells but not the rifle in his report.
1.22pm. Boone finds the rifle.
1.35pm.(?) Shelley, Williams and Arce taken to city Hall. Lovelady and Dougherty taken also in separate car.
(?) Truly realizes Oswald is missing.
1.38pm. Lyndon Johnson sworn in as President.
1:40pm.(?) Truly goes to 6th floor and tells Fritz Oswald is missing and provides him with Ruth Paine's address.
Dispatch. "We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson."
1.46pm. Sawyer, "We have a man we would like to have you pass this up on to the CID to see if we can pick this man up. Charles Douglas Givens, G-I-V-E-N-S. He's a colored male, thirty-seven, six foot three, a hundred sixty-five pounds. He has an ID number in the Sheriff's Department, 37954. He's a porter that worked on this floor up here. He has a police record and he left."
1.48pm(?) Fritz leaves TSBD with Sims and Boyd . they go to Decker's office across Houston.
1.50pm. Williams, Arce, Shelley, Lovelady and Dougherty arrive at City Hall to provide statements.
1.52pm. Oswald arrested. Gerald Hill, "Suspect on the shooting the police officer is apprehended and en route to the station. Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theater after a fight."
1.58.pm Oswald arrives at City Hall. He is seen by Shelley, Lovelady, Arce, Williams and Dougherty.
2.00pm Day exits TSBD with CE139.
2.04pm. JFK hearse departs Parkland (Lawson).
2.05pm(?) Fritz, Sims and Boyd leave Decker's office.
2.15pm. JFK hearse arrives at Love Field (Lawson).
Fritz, Sims and Boyd arrive at City Hall. Fritz instructs Rose, Stovall and Adamcek to go to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. *Note that Adamcek states the time for this to be 2.30pm and their arrival at Irving to be 3.00pm.
2.20pm. Oswald taken to Fritz's office.
2.30 Rose, Stovall and Adamcek arrive at to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving.
2.35pm. Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving.
2.42pm (I think). Oswald first identified by name on radio or television as suspect.
2.45pm. (?) Walthers calls Decker to inform him of Oswald's rooming house number. Decker cross matches with 1026 N Beckley. *This information is somehow conveyed to Fritz.
Senkel is instructed by Fritz to go to 1026 N Beckley roominghouse. He goes with Potts and Cunningham.
2.47pm. AF1 departs Love Field (Lawson).
2.50pm. Michael Paine arrives at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving.
(?) Fritz tells Potts, Senkel and Cunningham to go to 1026 N Beckley
3.00pm. Montgomery and Johnson leave the TSBD with the bag CE 142, chicken lunch remnants and empty Viceroy cigarette packet.
Potts, Senkel and Cunningham arrive at 1026 N Beckley and talk with Mrs Roberts, Mr and Mrs Johnson.
3.15pm. Bookout and Hosty commence interrogation of Oswald in Fritz's office.
3.33pm. Oswald?s picture shown on TV and is seen by those at the roominghouse waiting for a search warrant.
4.05pm. Oswald is taken for first show-up.
5.19pm. Rose phones McCabe in Irving to apprehend Buell Frazier at the Irving hospital.
5.35pm. Rose and Stovall take Frazier into custody from the Irving police.
1.35am. Oswald arraigned for JFK murder.
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What do people think about the time for Fritz's arrival in the SN? I am thinking it must have been around 1.13 to 1.15. Also I believe another senior officer was at the SN before Fritz. Was it Lumpkin?
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What do people think about the time for Fritz's arrival in the SN? I am thinking it must have been around 1.13 to 1.15. Also I believe another senior officer was at the SN before Fritz. Was it Lumpkin?
I'm listening, please go on.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
...Mr. TRULY......I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?
Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here "I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz."
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs. ...
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Might be my faulty memory Tom. I just read Mooney and Hill's testimony.....nothing to support me there. Maybe it was the reference you posted about Truly informing Lumpkin before Fritz about Oswald's absence that I got confused by.
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What do people think about the time for Fritz's arrival in the SN? I am thinking it must have been around 1.13 to 1.15. Also I believe another senior officer was at the SN before Fritz. Was it Lumpkin?
Detective Gerald Hill was there in the SN ( Smoker's Nook) before Fritz arrived.... Mooney found the spent shells at 1:06..... Hill called down to send up the Crime scene documentation team ( Day and Studebaker) at about 1:10.... Fritz arrived a few minutes later..... at about 1:15.
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Detective Gerald Hill was there in the SN ( Smoker's Nook) before Fritz arrived.... Mooney found the spent shells at 1:06..... Hill called down to send up the Crime scene documentation team ( Day and Studebaker) at about 1:10.... Fritz arrived a few minutes later..... at about 1:15.
Thanks Walt. I know Mooney called down to Fritz on the street below after finding the shells. A few officers were present early. Hill, as you mentioned, and Walters, Vickery and Craig. Fritz arrived with Sims and Boyd. Then Montgomery and Johnson who guarded the SN while the attention was on the rifle. Day and Studebaker arrived a few minutes before the rifle was found.
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I believe Decker made this call from car 1 about 12.31
"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."
at 12.36. 260 (Harkness?) makes this call
"Witness (Ewins) says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
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Officer Haygood.......had been on a motorcycle behind Baker in the motorcade. He dropped his bike on Elm and initially went to the rail yards. He returned and was approached by James Tague (hit during the shooting) and a witness who identified the TSBD as the source. This was just after 12.34.
Mr. HAYGOOD. One Stated that he had seen the President when the first shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from?
Mr. HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was fired, he went completely out of sight.
Mr. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just to the right of his nose.
Mr. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the Presidential car at the time of the shot?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back.
Mr. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of the President's car at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west.
Mr. BELIN. Southwest of it?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Talk to anyone else?
Mr. HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book Depository Building.
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Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?
Mr. SAWYER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr. SAWYER. Officers.
Looks like Sawyer arrived about 12.34.
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Not sure if this is specific enough to be helpful.
http://jfk.hood.edu/?. (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Decker%20J%20E%20Sheriff%20Bill/Item%2002.pdf) Page 3, last paragraph
Cites for Decker arriving before Fritz, after Mooney found the hulls, before the rifle was found at 1:22.
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Thanks Tom. Will crosscheck from the material I can get hold of. I found in a SS report of 12/18/63 that Decker recalled Sorrels leaving Parkland before him. Decker got a ride to the TSBD shortly after.
We have this from Mooney....
"So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up."
So it seems Fritz and Decker we?re outside the TSBD entrance when Mooney found the shells.
In reading Gerald Hill's account he claimed to call down to get the crime lab up. Was not sure if anyone heard him and decided to go down. On his way down he met Fritz coming up in the elevator and told him of the discovery. He continued downstairs and say Day and told him. Then went to Sawyer. At this time the fire truck rolled up and Owens reported to Sawyer.
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Mr. BELIN - You then got on the elevator to go on back down?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct.
Mr. BELIN - How far did you take the east elevator down?
Mr. BAKER - As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and I was still looking over the building.
Mr. BELIN - As the elevator was moving?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; downward.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES - City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down.
Mr. BELIN - Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?
Mr. BAKER - It was a little over 5 minutes.
So Sawyer was still on the 4th floor as Baker and Truly were descending from the roof.
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Note that Sims and Boyd were accompanying Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr. BALL. What officer was that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know whether he did because I couldn't watch him.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.
Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?
Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.
Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me (likely Gerald Hill) and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.
Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.
So it seems that Fritz did not hear Mooney's call. Fritz and his men went inside and began searching thebuilding for a gunman. Only later was he informed of the discovery of the shells. This would explain the six minute or so time gap between the SN discovery and the arrival of Fritz in that location. Hill testified he talked to Fritz about the SN discovery and so I have added that in bold to Fritz's testimony.
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Not sure if this is specific enough to be helpful.
http://jfk.hood.edu/?. (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Decker%20J%20E%20Sheriff%20Bill/Item%2002.pdf) Page 3, last paragraph
Cites for Decker arriving before Fritz, after Mooney found the hulls, before the rifle was found at 1:22.
Mr. BALL. Did you go back there back to Elm and Houston?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.
Mr. BALL. Did you go over there?
Mr. BOYD. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with--Mr. Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also out there, and he rode back down with us.
Found this Tom, seems like Decker jumped in Fritz's car at Parkland. If they arrived together at the front of the TSBD about 12.58 and went inside shortly after and Mooney saw them below when he found the shells it might make the SN discovery closer to 1pm.
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http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-002.gif (http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-002.gif)
Senkel is ordered by Fritz to take those on working 6th floor that day to HQ for statements.
Arrive at city hall at about 1.50, just before Oswald arrives in custody.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-003.gif (http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-003.gif)
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Oswald arraigned for murder of JFK by Judge Johnston in 4th floor ID bureau at 1:35 a.m 23rd November 1963.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_tl.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_tl.htm)
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Oswald arraigned for murder of JFK by Judge Johnston in 4th floor ID bureau at 1:35 a.m 23rd November 1963.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_tl.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_tl.htm)
The Anthony Summers Collection: Goddess, Not in Your Lifetime, and Official (https://books.google.com/books?id=WvtTDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT913&lpg=PT913&dq=%22FBI+report,+classified+until+1975,+indicates+that+Oswald+was+never+arraigned+on+the%22&source=bl&ots=CCh2fQ8wh5&sig=ACfU3U1LxIDwHp2syDulx3PNvkBj-pmiIw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcoeO2p-XhAhVHC6wKHbKgA7gQ6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22FBI%20report%2C%20classified%20until%201975%2C%20indicates%20that%20Oswald%20was%20never%20arraigned%20on%20the%22&f=false) ...
By Anthony Summers
(http://jfkforum.com/images/ArraignmentOswaldAsummers.jpg)
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Trying to get a timestamp for the conversation between Truly and Fritz about Oswald missing.
Mr. BALL. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex, or the place to go to in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the address they gave us--it was in Irving, Tex.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. BOYD. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see him a minute before he left, and Ave went in there and while we were in there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted to go by there and we carried him there.
Mr. BALL. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had been arrested for the murder of Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we started to Irving.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the suspect for the murder of Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when we heard about him being arrested over there.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz?
Mr. BOYD. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. And then you went with Fritz up to your office?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you remember?
Mr. BOYD. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there.
Mr. BALL. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there---I don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was?
Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; yes, sir.
Boyd seems somewhat confused but Fritz was leaving the TSBD and going across the street to see Decker at about 1.40pm. The rifle was found at 1.22pm.
Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record---on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. You and who?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.
Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there.
Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?
Here is what Fritz recalled.....
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.
What did Truly say?
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect. And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.
My best guess is that this conversation occurs after the rifle discovery (in the northwest corner) and while Day is over by the western windows fingerprinting it. Somewhere around 1.45pm would be my best guess.
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The time Frazier went down to the basement for lunch and returned.
Mr. BALL - Come back up?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.
Given that the shooting occurred at 12.30 and that the normal lunch time was 12-12.45pm, this suggests that Frazier spent 5 minutes after the shooting before going down to the basement to eat and came back up at 12.45pm.
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Some good information from Sweatt.....my comments in bold.
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Name of Complainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy
Offense
ALLAN SWEATT, Chief Criminal Deputy, Dallas County Sheriff's Office.
Date: Nov 23, 1963
At approximately 12:30 PM, Friday, November 22, 1963, I was standing with a group of Deputy Sheriff's about 30 feat east of the corner of Houston and Main Street on Main Street.
The president's caravan had just passed and about a minute or 2 I heard a shot and about 7 seconds later another shot and approximately 2 or 3 seconds later a third shot which sounded to me like a rifle and coming from the vicinity of Elm and Houston street. Several officers and myself from the Sheriff's department ran around the corner and towards Elm Street and Houston and were told that someone had shot at the President. A man by the name of "Hester" told Deputy John Wiseman that the shots had come from the old Sexton building (aka TSBD). As we approached the building we were told the shots had come from the fence. Deputy Wiseman and a City Officer went to the front door of the building and I continued towards the railroad yards with Deputy Harry Weatherford and I stopped where I could see two sides of the building which was the west and south sides. Deputy Harry Weatherford went into the building through an open window on the 1st floor (this can be seen in a famous photo)and Deputy Wiseman and the DPD officer went in the front door. On the far side of the building opposite me were some DPD Officers. At that time I was told the President had been shot and that Governor Connally also had been shot.
Officers started coming to the scene and approximately 15 deputy sheriff's and a number of DPD officers were at location. At this time, Inspector Sawyer of the DPD came to the front of the building and started taking names of witnesses and I suggested to inspector Sawyer that I get two deputies and send the witnesses to the Sheriff's Office for statements instead of letting the witnesses leave the scene. Inspector Sawyer agreed with this plan and as witnesses were brought together they were taken directly across the street to the Sheriff's Office to wait until statements could be taken. (this is the first bunch of witnesses taken by Walthers)
While I was still at the front of the Building, Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney stuck his head out of the 5th floor window and the Northeast corner of the building and stated he had found some spent cartridge cases and he was told to let them remain untouched until the DPD Crime Lab arrived on the scene. ( so the witnesses went to the Sherrif's office before Mooney found the shells).
Shortly after, a DPD officer brought a boy in a sport coat up and said "here is the man that had done the shooting". As officers started to question him, the crowd began to talk and pass the word around that this was the individual that had shot the President. At that time, in the company of the city officers, I sent 2 deputy sheriff's to take this man into custody and to take him to the Sheriff's office. Also Inspector Sawyer was informed of this and he sent a DPD detective to the Sheriff's office to talk to the boy. (I assume this was Larry Florer, found in the Dal-Tex)
At this time Sheriff Bill Decker arrived at the location where I was standing and I informed him as to what had been done up to that time. I then returned to the Sheriff's Office to coordinate the taking of statements and see that all persons that were in the office gave statements. I separated certain witnesses who seemed to have more facts than others and turned them over to Mrs. Rosemarry Allen of the Dallas Sheriff's office, Mr. Wallace Heitman of the FBI and Mr. Forrest Sorrells of the Secret Service, and they took witnesses to the Polygraph room of the Sheriff's Office where they obtained statements.
At approximately 1:30 PM, I received word that a Police Officer had been shot on Jefferson Street in Oak Cliff and the suspect was supposedly at large in that area. (I think that 1.30pm might be a bit late for this? Surely news of an officer being shot would travel quickly).I immediately dispatched Officer's Buddy Walthers, James Ramsey, an Frank Vrla to the scene of the shooting (Walthers stated that he was involved in surrounding the library, looking for the Tippet assailant. The library call came at 1.34pm). Officer Bill Courson of the Sheriff's Office joined with them in Oak Cliff. Apprehension was made of the suspect in the Texas Theatre and suspect was turned over to the Dallas Police Department.
After this we correlated all statements, getting copies separated and in separate files. Sent a complete set of all statements taken to Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police Department
During this time, Deputy Bill Wiseman brought in two girls to me with some pictures they had taken. 1 picture was taken just shortly before the shooting of the President which shows the Sexton Building in the background. This picture was turned over to Secret Service Agent Patterson, who gave this woman his card, advising her that the picture would be returned to her.
I also received copies of pictures taken from a witness by name of "Betzner, Jr.", which have been included in the files of this case.
I have contacted all Deputies to come in this date and make their supplements of activities during the day of November 22nd, 1963.
I still have in my custody all original statements, supplements and copies of pictures by Betzner subject.
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From Buddy Walthers' first day statement......my comments in bold
After they left the area with the suspect, me and the officers who were with me got in our car and reported back to sheriff Decker at his office. (Oswald was under arrest and headed to City Hall by 1.52pm).Sheriff Decker then ordered me, together with Deputy Harry Weatherford and Deputy J. L. Oxford to go to a house at 25115 West 5th Street in Irving, Texas and met some officers from Capt. Will Fritz' office. We arrived at location and met detective Rose and Adamcik from the Homicide division of the Dallas Police Department. (It seems they arrived a few minutes after the detectives, maybe around 2.35pm).
Upon getting to the residence, we were met by Mrs. Michael Payne and upon showing our credentials and advising her who we were, she stated, "It's about the President being shot, Weve been expecting it. Come on in". (Given these comments and the fact that the women were keenly monitoring the news it is doubtful that they are aware that Oswald is under arrest at this time). She informed us that the lady standing beside her was Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Payne went on to explain that Mrs. Oswald spoke only Russian, however, he would help interpret as she spoke both English and Russian. Upon asking if suspect Oswald lived at this location, she advised that his wife and children lived there, but that Lee Oswald and his wife had been separated and he did not live there. Mrs. Payne gave us permission to search the house or do anything we wanted to and she also, through interpretation, gave us Mrs. Oswald's permission to do the same. Mrs. Payne then gave us a telephone number and stated that was the phone number of Lee Oswald, however, she advised she did not know an address where he was staying. At this time, I called Sheriff Decker and advised him of this and he criss-crossed this telephone number and gave us an address of 1026 North Beckley. He advised he would dispatch other officers to cover this address. About this time, Mr. Michael Payne came to this location. (Other statements by police put the arrival of Michael Paine about 15 minutes after they entered the house, therefore the transferring of the number to Decker by Walthers and discovery of the 1026 N Beckley address could be around 2.50-3.00pm)
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We also have this from Fritz regarding the discovery of the rooming house......
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. yes, sir.
Fritz confirms he arrived at City Hall from Decker's office on Houston after Oswald. He claims that the N Beckley address was known before the interrogation started.
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Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there---I don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was?
Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time?
Mr. BOYD. With Oswald at that time?
Mr. BALL. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was there besides Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI agents.
Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now, turning to your memorandum of the November 22 interview of Lee Harvey Oswald, what transpired from the time you first entered Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. HOSTY. As this interview form will show, the interview commenced at 3:15 p.m. I am certain of that time because I checked my wristwatch, and Agent Bookhout checked my wristwatch. We both agreed on the time, 3:15.
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Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there---I don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.
What evidence did they have at 2:15 that he was ?the man that shot Tippit??
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What evidence did they have at 2:15 that he was ?the man that shot Tippit??
John, while the question you pose is interesting in itself, the purpose of the thread is to accumulate a reasonably accurate timeline of events of the day. I have simply used the Boyd testimony as he quoted a specific time. I now need information on when Fritz starts to talk to Oswald in his office. The reason for this is that just prior to that interrogation commencing Fritz instructed the officers to go to 1026 N Beckley. Hosty and Bookout recorded 3.15pm as the time they started.
Does anyone have any ideas when Fritz first started talking to Oswald?
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This document revises a time when Frazier is first apprehended and when Rose and Stovall take him into custody.
(https://i.ibb.co/Bgyrfsd/37-F0-B9-F9-B688-4-C6-E-A474-0383-E893-EDF3.jpg)