JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on April 03, 2019, 05:31:25 AM

Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 03, 2019, 05:31:25 AM
John Iacoletti denies that it can be proved from the photos and films that his "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3 is  Big-Tall, Black-Blouse And Black-Headscarf-Wearing Woman (Gloria Calvery) in the Zapruder film.

If he were to were to read Dallas News' November 2012 article https://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtown-dallas/2012/11/22/two-eyewitnesses-reunite-once-a-year-on-anniversary-of-kennedys-death about JFK assassination witnesses Ernest Brandt and John Templin, ...

... and if he were to look at Robin Unger's infamous yellow-labeled Zapruder-151 frame and at Don Roberdeau's Map and find in them (gasp ... correctly-labeled!) Ernest Brand standing next to his (gasp ... correctly labeled!) 21 year-old friend John Templin, ...

... and if he were to look at the people, cars, and background in Betzner-3 and compare them with the people, cars, and background in Willis-5, ...

... Scrolling down until he finds said photos, and then enlarge them to his heart's content --
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm

... taking special care to notice that John Templin is in both Betzner-3 and Willis-5), ...

... and if he were to take into consideration the fact that Hugh Betzner -- whose "Betzner-3" was taken simultaneously with Z-187 and 0.874/second before "Willis-5" -- was standing on the other side of Elm Street, about 30 feet behind and a little to the left of Phil Willis (per Zapruder's LOS at Z-187) on the other side of Elm Street, ...

... and if he were to realize that Robin Unger's seriously mislabeled Zapruder frame is Z-151, and that Betzner-3 was taken simultaneously with Zapruder-187, and that Willis-5 was taken simultaneously with Zapruder-202, ...

... and if he were to realize that Abraham Zapruder can be seen standing on his pedestal and very near the L-R center point of both Willis-3 and Betzner-5 ( http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm ; ignore the red circle around so-called Black Dog Man in Willis-5), ...

... and if he were to realize that both Phil Willis and Hugh Betzner are visible in the background of Unger's yellow-labeled Z-151 frame (or at least in a clearer frame near it), ...

... well gosh, taking all of the above together (I mean he IS capable of doing that sort of thing, isn't he?), ...

... he'd realize that fedora-wearing trilby-wearing Ernest Brandt can be seen standing next to John Templin in Willis-5, and that John Templin can be seen standing next to your "Glasses Woman" (Gloria Calvery) in Betzner-3.

...

"Got it" now, Iacoletti?

-- MWT  :)

Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2019, 02:51:00 PM
Or do you require a POWERPOINT PRESENTATION, NOTARIZED STATEMENTS, AND DNA SAMPLES?[/size]

I require more than just your say-so.  For one thing, why should I believe you when you say that Unger mislabeled anything?

Secondly, why don't you just post the photos and mark who it is you're talking about instead of writing paragraphs and paragraphs of obtuse descriptions?

Thirdly, how does any of this rot show that the guy next to the Betzner blob is named John Templin?
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 03, 2019, 06:51:32 PM
I require more than just your say-so.  For one thing, why should I believe you when you say that Unger mislabeled anything?

Secondly, why don't you just post the photos and mark who it is you're talking about instead of writing paragraphs and paragraphs of obtuse descriptions?

Thirdly, how does any of this show that the guy next to the Betzner blob is named John Templin?

Iacoletti,

1)  In his yellow-labeled Z-151 frame, Robin Unger got six people wrong and didn't even attempt to label the Big And Tall, Black-Blouse And Black-Headscarf-Wearing Gal (your "Glasses Woman"). LOL  If I remember correctly, Unger has grudgingly admitted that he mislabeled self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob as "Gloria Calvary" (sic).

2)  I already have posted Betzner-3 and Willis-5, Iacoletti.  They're in that long article by John Hunt, Jr. at the McAdams website.  All you have to do is scroll down and find them.  Let me know if you need any help in spotting Abraham Zapruder in them.  Let me know if you need help in spotting your "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3, and the bare-headed guy (21 year-old John Templin) standing next to her.  Note how Templin is leaning a little bit towards your "Glasses Woman" in both Zapruder and Betzner-3, and how the peak of the fedora hat Templin's buddy, Ernest Brandt, is wearing can be seen peeking up from behind the right shoulder of the leaning-forward SS guy on the Queen Mary.

As regards Unger's yellow-labeled Z-151 frame and Roberdeau's map (in which Roberdeau recently moved Jean Newman to the other side of the unlabeled brown dot representing your "Glasses Woman" -- LOL), I'm afraid you're going to have to look them up, yourself.

3)  Have you read that 2012 Dallas News article about Templin and Brandt yet, Iacoletti? How do you imagine that Unger and Roberdeau actually labeled them correctly (they did, btw)?

Did they interview them? Did they read that article or one similar to it?  Did they meet them in Dealey Plaza one November the 22nd?

(IDK, but they did get them right.)

--  Mud Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2019, 09:58:57 PM
Iacoletti,

1)  In his yellow-labeled Z-151 frame, Robin Unger got six people wrong

That's easy for you to say -- with no evidence whatsoever.  It's just as easy to say that you got seven people wrong.

Quote
2)  I already have posted Betzner-3 and Willis-5, Iacoletti.  They're in that long article by John Hunt, Jr. at the McAdams website.  All you have to do is scroll down and find them.

No, you posted obtuse descriptions of them and links to offsite pages rather than just posting the photos and annotating them with who you are talking about.

And you still have provided ZERO evidence to support your identifications of Templin and Brandt, or how you decided that Templin was standing next to "tall woman" in Zapruder.  Nor have you marked where you think you see "glasses" on Betzner-blob.

Quote
3)  Have you read that 2012 Dallas News article about Templin and Brandt yet, Iacoletti?

Indeed I have.  All is says is that Brandt "waved around a blurry photo", and that he was wearing a fedora that day.  It doesn't say what photo or where he was in the photo.  BFD.

Quote
How do you imagine that Unger and Roberdeau actually labeled them correctly (they did, btw)?

I don't know.  But if you are going to cite them as authoritative, you better know how they made their determinations.  Particularly when you've picking and choosing what they got right and what they got wrong.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 04, 2019, 01:32:48 AM
No, you posted obtuse descriptions of them and links to offsite pages rather than just posting the photos and annotating them with who you are talking about.

And you still have provided ZERO evidence to support your identifications of Templin and Brandt, or how you decided that Templin was standing next to "tall woman" in Zapruder.  Nor have you marked where you think you see "glasses" on Betzner-blob.

Indeed I have.  All is says is that Brandt "waved around a blurry photo", and that he was wearing a fedora that day.  It doesn't say what photo or where he was in the photo.  BFD.

I don't know.  But if you are going to cite them as authoritative, you better know how they made their determinations.  Particularly when you've picking and choosing what they got right and what they got wrong.

Iacoletti,

According to the Sixth Floor Museum, Dallas News and other sources, 37 year-old Ernest Brandt was wearing his fedora hat while he and his 21 year-old customer, John Templin, were standing together on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street, "near the Grassy Knoll."

Interesting, then, that when we look at, in sequence, Altgens-6, Croft,  Zapruder, Betzner-3, Willis-5, Bronson-5, and the Bronson film, we do not see two men standing together anywhere on the sidewalk on that side of the street. Not to mention near the GK, and with one wearing a fedora hat!  -- Except, of course, for Robin Unger's and Don Roberdeau's correctly-labeled Templin and Brandt.

Breaking News:
Here's an excellent article I just now stumbled upon. It's obvious that Brandt's talking about Willis-5, don't you think? What other photo might he be waving around that "captured," from the intersection of Houston and Elm, JFK and Jackie on Elm Street, and Abraham Zapruder and Marilyn Sitzman on a pedestal in the background, and a fedora-wearing spectator (Brandt) in between?
https://lakewood.advocatemag.com/2009/11/01/view-to-a-kill/

And regarding Tall Girl's glasses, let me remind you that it was you that noticed them in Betzner-3 (obviously after having suspected them and then enlarging her face to confirm your suspicion) a couple of months ago.

You really don't remember calling her "Glasses Woman," John?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Michael Walton on April 04, 2019, 02:53:04 PM
Tom,

As John I said, it's not hard to post images here. You may want to take the time to learn how to post. I recall you saying you were in your late 60's so perhaps learning something new will keep those synapses firing away. Here's a post of Willis. See how easy it is?

(http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/S009.jpg)

But to a larger point, why do you keep blathering on about this? First it was your fixation on the Russians did it. Now you can't seem to let go of this glasses woman and fedora man and crying woman. If I'm not mistaken, this all goes back to one thing - whether the proposed time line of Prayer Man - and the people moving around in the various films and photos - is accurate enough to "prove" who exactly is up in the vestibule in the news film footage.

So John I wants more proof. So what? So what if it is the blue-scarfed woman down there or the Indian woman or whoever? Big deal.

The key here is one thing and one thing only - there is *someone* up in that vestibule. Is it Oswald? Is it a coworker? Is it a complete stranger who walked three blocks from their place of employment and then decided on a whim to walk down to that vestibule (maybe to get out of the sun) and watch the parade?

There's arguments and speculation that both support or go against whether it's Oswald or not. But in the meantime, it's amazing how you keep going on and on about this as it really doesn't make a damn bit of a difference in determining who killed Kennedy.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 07:43:09 PM
According to the Sixth Floor Museum, Dallas News and other sources, 37 year-old Ernest Brandt was wearing his fedora hat while he and his 21 year-old customer, John Templin, were standing together on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street, "near the Grassy Knoll."

The Dallas News article says nothing about "on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street, near the Grassy Knoll."  What sources?

Quote
Interesting, then, that when we look at, in sequence, Altgens-6, Croft,  Zapruder, Betzner-3, Willis-5, Bronson-5, and the Bronson film, we do not see two men standing together anywhere on the sidewalk on that side of the street. Not to mention near the GK, and with one wearing a fedora hat!  -- Except, of course, for Robin Unger's and Don Roberdeau's correctly-labeled Templin and Brandt.

Doesn't even look like a fedora to me.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2438/4515/products/product-image-350339932@2x.jpg)(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/z130-hat.jpg)

Other possible hats:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/willis-hats.jpg)
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/bronson-hats.jpg)

Quote
And regarding Tall Girl's glasses, let me remind you that it was you that noticed them in Betzner-3 (obviously after having suspected them and then enlarging her face to confirm your suspicion) a couple of months ago.

Show me the glasses, Tommy:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-blob.png)

Quote
You really don't remember calling her "Glasses Woman," John?

I changed my mind after examining the above enlargement.  Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 07:47:59 PM
So John I wants more proof. So what? So what if it is the blue-scarfed woman down there or the Indian woman or whoever? Big deal.

Agreed.  I don't care who Doyle and Graves think is whom, as long as they don't claim their wild guesses are proven facts.

Besides, given that you can't see Tommy's "hat man" in Betzner, OR Tommy's "glasses woman" in Willis, I'm not sure what he's on about.

Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 04, 2019, 11:07:22 PM
Iacoletti isn't to be taken seriously and just naysays everything you post...

If you look at Walton's Willis 5 image you can see Karen Westbrook to the right of Secret Service Jack Ready in the follow-up car...

Look at Westbrook in this motion view of the spectators in Zapruder and you will see the woman I am pointing-out in Willis 5 IS Karen Westbrook...She snaps her head toward Reed whom she is standing next to having gone to the watch the motorcade together:


Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 11:53:29 PM
If you look at Walton's Willis 5 image you can see Karen Westbrook to the right of Secret Service Jack Ready in the follow-up car...

There's no reason to think that blob is Karen Westbrook.

Quote
Look at Westbrook in this motion view of the spectators in Zapruder and you will see the woman I am pointing-out in Willis 5 IS Karen Westbrook...She snaps her head toward Reed whom she is standing next to having gone to the watch the motorcade together:

Ridiculous argument.  How does a head turn (where do you even see that?) show that the people are Westbrook and Reed in particular?
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 05, 2019, 03:33:59 AM
Agreed.  I don't care who Doyle and Graves think is whom, as long as they don't claim their wild guesses are proven facts.

Besides, given that you can't see Tommy's "hat man" in Betzner, OR Tommy's "glasses woman" in Willis, I'm not sure what he's on about.

"Wild" guesses?

LOL
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 05, 2019, 07:14:28 AM
There's no reason to think that blob is Karen Westbrook.

Ridiculous argument.  How does a head turn (where do you even see that?) show that the people are Westbrook and Reed in particular?


You show gross incompetency if you don't realize we can see the space taken by 4 persons from Jean Newman to Calvery in Willis 5...Go the same distance from Calvery to the woman I am calling Westbrook and you will see it is the exact same distance that those other 4 take...That proves it is Westbrook...It proves that woman is the 3rd woman left of Calvery...If you have good skills like myself you will see the same blue jacket on this woman in Zapruder as the woman I am calling Westbrook in Willis...The blue jacket on Westbrook is much more visible in the motion Zapruder video I showed that Iacoletti is pretending he can't see...You're not very good at this Iacoletti...

Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Larry Trotter on April 05, 2019, 05:23:52 PM
Tom,

As John I said, it's not hard to post images here. You may want to take the time to learn how to post. I recall you saying you were in your late 60's so perhaps learning something new will keep those synapses firing away. Here's a post of Willis. See how easy it is?

(http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/S009.jpg)

But to a larger point, why do you keep blathering on about this? First it was your fixation on the Russians did it. Now you can't seem to let go of this glasses woman and fedora man and crying woman. If I'm not mistaken, this all goes back to one thing - whether the proposed time line of Prayer Man - and the people moving around in the various films and photos - is accurate enough to "prove" who exactly is up in the vestibule in the news film footage.

So John I wants more proof. So what? So what if it is the blue-scarfed woman down there or the Indian woman or whoever? Big deal.

The key here is one thing and one thing only - there is *someone* up in that vestibule. Is it Oswald? Is it a coworker? Is it a complete stranger who walked three blocks from their place of employment and then decided on a whim to walk down to that vestibule (maybe to get out of the sun) and watch the parade?

There's arguments and speculation that both support or go against whether it's Oswald or not. But in the meantime, it's amazing how you keep going on and on about this as it really doesn't make a damn bit of a difference in determining who killed Kennedy.

Mr Walton;
The wording in this quoted posted reply indicates that you have chosen sides in said debate. If so, may I ask why? And, why do you, as indicated in this quoted posted reply, feel a need to discourage the debate as presented by Mr Graves, and Mr Doyle, and myself on occasion, while accepting, as indicated by the quoted posted reply
, the often and repeatedly expressed comments by those in opposition, as in Mr Iacoletti's and Mr Ford's quite often posted replies' disputing presented identity indicative information.
By the way, you do know, don't you, that your "posted image" that appears to represent Willis5 Photograph, does not include GloriaHoltImage, StellaJacobImage, GloriaCalveryImage, KaranHicksImage, and CarolReedImage?
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 05, 2019, 08:05:35 PM
Iacoletti isn't to be taken seriously and just naysays everything you post...

What's worrying, Brian, is the possibility that other members and guests (especially newbies) do take him seriously, and that they will collectively and with "input" elsewhere from people like Bart "The Fart" Larry Grayson doppleganger Bart " Ooooh...Shut That Door" Kamp and Linda "Calvery Is Running Woman!" Giovana-Zambanini, help to perpetuate the horribly inaccurate (as regards the identies of spectators/witnesses on the north side of Elm Street) "primary documents" known as Robin Unger's yellow-labeled Z-151 Frame, Don "I'll Get It Right Eventually" Roberdeau's map, and Karen "Probably Carol Reed Then Gloria Calvert Then Me" Westbrook's abomination of a Sixth Floor Museum interview.

If you look at Walton's Willis 5 image you can see Karen Westbrook to the right of Secret Service Jack Ready in the follow-up car. Look at Westbrook in this motion view of the spectators in Zapruder and you will see the woman I am pointing-out in Willis 5 IS Karen Westbrook...She snaps her head toward Reed whom she is standing next to having gone to the watch the motorcade together:


Good catch about that woman's turning her head towards the woman to her right in order to say something to her while the limo's coming own the street from the other direction, Brian.

It tends to confirm the "theory" that those four headscarf-wearing gals are watching the motorcade, well, together while ... gasp ... actually standing shoulder-to-shoulder!

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 05, 2019, 08:23:38 PM
Same to you Mr Graves when you noticed that the widest angle versions of Altgens 6 show the woman who is standing right next to Westbrook clearly...Iacoletti is cooked because if we could get an enlargement of that widest angle Altgens we would see in sharp detail that none of the women to Westbrook's left are possibly the Calvery group which in turns proves beyond a doubt that the Calvery group is them and they are shoulder to shoulder...

What a debt you and I owe to Iacoletti for mindlessly tying us up for months with endless hundreds of pages of idiotic denial so we could prove what we already knew... (LOL)

Thomas - Look even more closely and you will see Reed quickly turn and talk to Hicks! (at 8 seconds)...

Thomas, Thomas! Today is a good day...If you play with the scroll bar on that video at 8 seconds Reed turns far enough that you can freeze it to show her hair...The color of Reed's hair is exactly that of Reed as confirmed in the Christmas photos and we can now say with fairly good certainty that Woman In All White is Reed and Orange Scarf Woman is Hicks...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 05, 2019, 11:18:03 PM
Same to you Mr Graves when you noticed that the widest angle versions of Altgens 6 show the woman who is standing right next to Westbrook clearly...Iacoletti is cooked because if we could get an enlargement of that widest angle Altgens we would see in sharp detail that none of the women to Westbrook's left are possibly the Calvery group which in turns proves beyond a doubt that the Calvery group is them and they are shoulder to shoulder...

What a debt you and I owe to Iacoletti for mindlessly tying us up for months with endless hundreds of pages of idiotic denial so we could prove what we already knew... (LOL)

Thomas - Look even more closely and you will see Reed quickly turn and talk to Hicks! (at 8 seconds)...

Thomas, Thomas! Today is a good day...If you play with the scroll bar on that video at 8 seconds Carol Reed (all in white) turns far enough that you can freeze it to show her hair...The color of Reed's hair is exactly that of Reed as confirmed in the Christmas photos and we can now say with fairly good certainty that Woman In All White is Reed and Orange Scarf Woman is Hicks...

Good stuff, Brian.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 05, 2019, 11:38:03 PM
As pointed out by Brian Doyle, Carol "All In White" Reed's hair color is visible in Z-133:

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z133.jpg

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  That's Karen Westbrook wearing a light-colored headscarf and a dark raincoat to her immediate left.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:09:43 AM
"Wild" guesses?

Yes.  Absolutely wild guesses.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:12:44 AM
You show gross incompetency if you don't realize we can see the space taken by 4 persons from Jean Newman to Calvery in Willis 5...Go the same distance from Calvery to the woman I am calling Westbrook and you will see it is the exact same distance that those other 4 take...That proves it is Westbrook...It proves that woman is the 3rd woman left of Calvery...If you have good skills like myself you will see the same blue jacket on this woman in Zapruder as the woman I am calling Westbrook in Willis...The blue jacket on Westbrook is much more visible in the motion Zapruder video I showed that Iacoletti is pretending he can't see...You're not very good at this Iacoletti...

How does any of this nonsense prove that it's Westbrook?

The only thing you're "good at" is making stuff up.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:16:56 AM
Thomas - Look even more closely and you will see Reed quickly turn and talk to Hicks! (at 8 seconds)...

 :D  This quick head turn somehow means, not only that she is "talking" to her, but you also think that head turn somehow shows that it's Reed and Hicks in particular?  You're a riot.

Quote
Thomas, Thomas! Today is a good day...If you play with the scroll bar on that video at 8 seconds Reed turns far enough that you can freeze it to show her hair...The color of Reed's hair is exactly that of Reed as confirmed in the Christmas photos and we can now say with fairly good certainty that Woman In All White is Reed and Orange Scarf Woman is Hicks...

Complete and utter made-up fantasy BS.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:18:36 AM
As pointed out by Brian Doyle, Carol "All In White" Reed's hair color is visible in Z-133:

Let's see this alleged "exact match" to the hair color in the office photos.

(you do know that the Costella frames are oversaturated, right?
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 06, 2019, 01:19:57 AM

It is already explained:

When you look at the spacing taken by 4 people as seen in Willis from Jean Newman to Calvery you can then look at Westbrook and see she is the exact same distance left of Calvery that 4 people took from Newman to Calvery...

If you look at her height she is almost as tall as Calvery whose scarf just barely sticks above Jack Ready's head in Willis...

If you look at the blue color of her jacket in Willis you can see it in the motion video of Zapruder I posted...

But where my fine skills come in to play and win the debate is you can't see the white scarf on Westbrook in Willis...If you go to the motion Zapruder video you can see Westbrook has her scarf far back on her head with her hair sticking way out in front...This proves it is Westbrook because you can't see her white scarf in Willis because her hair sticks way out in front proving it is her...

Let me know if you need any further lessons in evidence detection Iacoletti...

 
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:27:36 AM
When you look at the spacing taken by 4 people as seen in Willis from Jean Newman to Calvery you can then look at Westbrook and see she is the exact same distance left of Calvery that 4 people took from Newman to Calvery...

 :D  As if any four people take up the same amount of space.

Quote
If you look at her height she is almost as tall as Calvery whose scarf just barely sticks above Jack Ready's head in Willis...

You're forgetting that you don't actually know that is Calvery.

Quote
If you look at the blue color of her jacket in Willis you can see it in the motion video of Zapruder I posted...

How does the jacket color tell you who it is?

Quote
But where my fine skills come in to play

LOL

Quote
and win the debate is you can't see the white scarf on Westbrook in Willis...If you go to the motion Zapruder video you can see Westbrook has her scarf far back on her head with her hair sticking way out in front...This proves it is Westbrook because you can't see her white scarf in Willis because her hair sticks way out in front proving it is her...

WTF?  A scarf pushed back on her head tells you that it's Westbrook?  This is your "fine skills"?  What drugs are you on?

Quote
Let me know if you need any further lessons in evidence detection Iacoletti...

You mean lessons in making ridiculous conclusions that don't even follow from the premises, which are flawed to begin with?

Westbrook pointed out blue scarf lady as herself, which means that she knew she was wearing a blue scarf.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 06, 2019, 05:57:16 PM
What you are looking at is a site troll being allowed to answer good evidence with contemptuous trolling...

We know it is Calvery by exclusion and their heights prove they are Calvery and Westbrook...

Iacoletti is dishonest because he's deliberately ignoring that we have now proven all the women from Westbrook east are not any of the Calvery group, and when you compare the height evidence to this fact it requires by normal standards of evidence that the women from Tall Woman east are the Calvery group standing shoulder to shoulder...

You can depend on the booby research community to respond by actively ignoring you when you finally present brilliant conclusive evidence...


Quote
A scarf pushed back on her head tells you that it's Westbrook?

Yes, and you're not answering a very intelligent and credible point of evidence and are showing your foolish nature and incompetency (or gutter denial)...It does for the reasons I described and you failed to credibly answer...Answering clear evidence with a question is a sign of knowledge of guilt and inability to refute what you know to be true...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 11:55:03 PM
What you are looking at is a site troll being allowed to answer good evidence with contemptuous trolling...

We know it is Calvery by exclusion and their heights prove they are Calvery and Westbrook...

We don’t “know” anything of the kind. It’s just another empty Doyle claim.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
"Wild guesses"?

Yes.  Absolutely wild guesses.

Iacoletti,

What kind of evidence do you require?

Never mind.

It would appear that a statement made to a smiling and nodding host (Stephen Fagin) while viewing one's "self" wearing a hair-hiding scarf and a figure-hiding raincoat from behind and 54 years after-the-fact is good enough for you.

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 09:05:51 AM

Iacoletti,

I know the following simplified explanation will probably be "lost" on you, but regarding those two photos (Betzner-3 and Willis-5) which were taken about a second apart and in which the Queen Mary was progressing from right to left and therefore obscuring different spectators from the photographers' lenses as it went along, the point is that by realizing Abraham Zapruder is visible near the center of both photos and, concomitantly, that the two photographers, Betzner and Willis, were standing only a few feet from each other as far as Zapruder's LOS was concerned, ... well, one can easily realize that John Templin is in both photos, standing to the immediate left of your "Glasses Woman" (i.e., the tall black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing gal) in Betzner-3, and standing to the immediate right of his buddy, suit-and-fedora-hat-wearing Ernest Brandt in Willis-5, and that it can therefore be unequivocally stated that that short sequence of spectators on the north side of Elm Street was comprised of, from right to left in Zapruder and obviously with no one else in between them: Ernest Brandt, John Templin, and ... gasp ... (your) "Glasses Woman".

Interested researchers and students can click on the link, below, and scroll down to and enlarge the two photos I'm talking about here - Betzner-3 and Willis-5.

BREAKING NEWS:

Please note that Ernest Brandt can be seen in Betzner-3 -- or at least the very tip of the peak of his trademark fedora hat, as it peeks up from behind the right shoulder of a SS agent like some kind of strange "bump".

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm

-- MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Larry Trotter on April 09, 2019, 04:18:16 PM
"Wild guesses"?

Iacoletti,

What kind of evidence do you require?

Never mind.

It would appear that a statement made to a smiling and nodding host (Stephen Fagin) while viewing one's "self" wearing a hair-hiding scarf and a figure-hiding raincoat from behind and 54 years after-the-fact is good enough for you.

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Mr Graves:
While I do not intend to watch/listen again to the SixthFloorMuseum interview of KarenWestbrook-Scranton, so correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall StephenFagin indicated by his response that there was a possible discrepancy regarding MsWestbrook-Scranton's self PersonImage identification due to an indication provided by a relative of GloriaLittle-Calvery, that possibly MsLittle-Calvery was not the PersonImage as identified by MsWestbrook-Scranton.


Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 04:47:59 PM
It would appear that a statement made to a smiling and nodding host (Stephen Fagin) while viewing one's "self" wearing a hair-hiding scarf and a figure-hiding raincoat from behind and 54 years after-the-fact is good enough for you.

It's better than some "technology-impaired" hack looking at a hair-hiding scarf and a figure-hiding raincoat from behind and 56 years after-the-fact.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 04:53:37 PM
I know the following simplified explanation will probably be "lost" on you, but regarding those two photos (Betzner-3 and Willis-5) which were taken about a second apart and in which the Queen Mary was progressing from right to left and therefore obscuring different spectators from the photographers' lenses as it went along, the point is that by realizing Abraham Zapruder is visible near the center of both photos and, concomitantly, that the two photographers, Betzner and Willis, were standing only a few feet from each other as far as Zapruder's LOS was concerned, ... well, one can easily realize that John Templin is in both photos, standing to the immediate left of your "Glasses Woman" (i.e., the tall black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing gal) in Betzner-3, and standing to the immediate right of his buddy, suit-and-fedora-hat-wearing Ernest Brandt in Willis-5, and that it can therefore be unequivocally stated that that short sequence of spectators on the north side of Elm Street was comprised of, from right to left in Zapruder and obviously with no one else in between them: Ernest Brandt, John Templin, and ... gasp ... (your) "Glasses Woman".

Why are you posting the exact same verbiage to multiple threads?  In fact, why are you creating multiple threads for you same silly argument?

But given that you can’t see “tall woman” in Willis, or “hat man” in Betzner, how do you even know it’s the same guy, much less that his name is Templin?

Quote
Please note that Ernest Brandt can be seen in Betzner-3 -- or at least the very tip of the peak of his trademark fedora hat, as it peeks up from behind the right shoulder of a SS agent like some kind of strange "bump".

Where?

And LOL at the “trademark fedora hat”. Stop pretending more familiarity with these people than you actually have. We’ve already discussed that “hat man”’s brim is too small to be a fedora.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 09, 2019, 06:43:58 PM
[G]iven that you can’t see “tall woman” in Willis, or “hat man” in Betzner, how do you even know it’s the same guy, much less that his name is Templin?

And LOL at the “trademark fedora hat”. Stop pretending more familiarity with these people than you actually have. We’ve already discussed that “hat man”’s brim is too small to be a fedora.

Iacoletti,

See that out-of-place dark "bump" on the right shoulder of SS agent William "Tim" McIntyre (standing behind Clint Hill) in Betzner-3, Iacoletti?

That's the top of Brandt's fedora.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12617&fullsize=1

(Regarding the "great distance" between Brandt's hat and Templin, please be aware of the fact that Templin was leaning away a bit from Brandt, as can be seen in the Zapruder film.)

.....

Speaking of "fedora," it's not surprising in the least that you, John "Mr. Disingenuous Himself" Iacoletti, would post a photo of the widest-brimmed one you could find.

LOL

Here's one with a much narrower brim, wouldn't you agree?

https://m.kohls.com/product/prd-2354265/mens-urban-pipeline-solid-fedora.jsp?skuid=46375039&ci_mcc=ci&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=connexity&utm_product=&utm_campaignid=&CID=shopping34&utm_content=15548302871312701020310070302008005&gclid=CJPH-5fCw-ECFQ-QxQIdNI0KSw&gclsrc=ds

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 06:57:36 PM
See that out-of-place dark "bump" on the right shoulder of SS agent William "Tim" McIntyre (standing behind Clint Hill) in Betzner-3, Iacoletti?

No.

Quote
Speaking of "fedora," it's not surprising in the least that you, John "Mr. Disingenuous" Iacoletti, would post a photo of the widest-brimmed one you could find.

That's what a fedora looks like.

Quote
Here's one with a much narrower brim, wouldn't you agree?

Despite the caption, that's not a fedora, it's a trilby.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 09, 2019, 07:08:52 PM
No.

That's what a fedora looks like.

Despite the caption, that's not a fedora, it's a trilby.

Iacoletti,

Does the top of Mcintyre's right shoulder look normal to you?

Regarding "fedora" versus "trilby" nomenclature, if you're right, then I guess the people who wrote those articles about Brandt and Templin just don't have as good a vocabulary as you do.

"Trilby," huh?

Why does this remind me of "vestibule"?

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
Does the top of Mcintyre's right shoulder look normal to you?

Yes.  I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  How far apart do you think "hat man" and "dude next to Betzner-blob" were when Betzner was snapped?
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 09, 2019, 09:41:10 PM
Yes.  I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  How far apart do you think "hat man" and "dude next to Betzner-blob" were when Betzner was snapped?

Dumb question since you can see that in Zapruder from the other side...

None of this overturns the fact we have proven the persons from Templin west are not the Calvery group nor are those from Dishong east...That forces the Tall Woman group to be Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 10:46:31 PM
Dumb question since you can see that in Zapruder from the other side...

Exactly.  Now apply that to Tom's "shoulder bump".

Quote
None of this overturns the fact we have proven the persons from Templin west are not the Calvery group nor are those from Dishong east...That forces the Tall Woman group to be Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...

You haven't proven squat.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 10, 2019, 01:30:57 AM
Exactly.  Now apply that to Tom's "shoulder bump".


John "The Voice Of Reason" Iacoletti,

Regarding "exactly" how far apart Templin and Brandt were standing in Zapruder, etc, why don't you google Roberdeau's map and figure it out for yourself?

Three feet, max?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 03:42:01 PM
Exactly.  Now apply that to Tom's "shoulder bump".

You haven't proven squat.


What kind of craziness is this...

I already have and Zapruder matches Betzner and Willis...

You get away with murder Iacoletti...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 05:33:59 PM

What kind of craziness is this...

I already have and Zapruder matches Betzner and Willis...

You get away with murder Iacoletti...

And you think that making the same claim over and over again is proof, Doyle.  You're wrong.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 05:38:30 PM
And you think that making the same claim over and over again is proof, Doyle.  You're wrong.

What you see in Zapruder matches what you see in Willis and Betzner because they were taken at the same time...

You are posting irrational claims that are not being vetted at a moderator level...

You are getting away with murder because we can take all images of those from Templin west and prove they are none of the Calvery group...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 05:45:13 PM
What you see in Zapruder matches what you see in Willis and Betzner because they were taken at the same time...

If that's the case, then Tommy's "shoulder bump" is not a hat.  It's too far away from the guy you keep calling Templin.

Quote
You are getting away with murder because we can take all images of those from Templin west and prove they are none of the Calvery group...

So then do it, already.   And then explain why you're only looking west.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 10, 2019, 06:08:48 PM
If that's the case, then Tommy's "shoulder bump" is not a hat.  It's too far away from the guy you keep calling Templin.

So then do it, already.   And then explain why you're only looking west.

Iacoletti,

If you were to look at Templin and Brandt in Zapruder, you'd realize that, although they are standing only about a foot-and-a-half apart from each other, Templin was leaning significantly towards Calvery (i.e., away from Brandt).

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z151.jpg

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Betzner-3 was taken simultaneously with Z-186/187, and Willis-5 was taken .874 later, simultaneously with Z-202.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 06:54:02 PM
So then do it, already.   And then explain why you're only looking west.


The two women east of the Simmons' group are not any of the Calvery group because their body shapes and ages aren't right...The perfect body shapes and heights for Hicks and Reed are seen in the women immediately to Tall Woman's left...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 07:08:22 PM
The two women east of the Simmons' group are not any of the Calvery group

"Simmons group".  LOL.
"Calvery group".  LOL.

Quote
because their body shapes and ages aren't right...

Oh, so now you can determine their ages!  This just keeps getting better!

Quote
The perfect body shapes and heights for Hicks and Reed are seen in the women immediately to Tall Woman's left...

Enough of your empty claims.  Show your analysis where you've matched their body shapes and heights.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 07:09:58 PM
PS  Betzner-3 was taken simultaneously with Z-186/187,

Then why did you post a link to Z-151 to make your case?
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 08:38:44 PM


The two women immediately east of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob are not Calvery, Hicks, Reed, or Westbrook...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
The two women immediately east of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob are not Calvery, Hicks, Reed, or Westbrook...

You haven't even proven that "Simmons, Holt, and Jacob" are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 10:52:29 PM
You can see their faces in Darnell...They are the same women despite your silly denials...Even the main Prayer Man nut admitted the one in the brown jacket and white skirt was Jacob...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 11:22:27 PM
You can see their faces in Darnell...

LOL.  This is nothing but a circular argument.  Even if we were all 100% certain who the Darnell women were, that doesn't mean the Zapruder sign people are the same people.

Quote
They are the same women despite your silly denials...

Claiming something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Quote
Even the main Prayer Man nut admitted the one in the brown jacket and white skirt was Jacob...

Karen Westbrook admitted the one in the blue scarf is herself.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 06:01:54 AM
  Even if we were all 100% certain who the Darnell women were, that doesn't mean the Zapruder sign people are the same people.


Yes it does because Blue Scarf Woman and the woman with the brown jacket and white skirt are the same women as seen in Towner...We can see those women are Simmons, Hicks, and Jacob in Darnell...You have nerve pretending you are getting away with ignoring/denying the blue scarf, brown jacket and white skirt seen in Towner...They are the Simmons group which in turn proves they are not the Calvery group...

Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 06:31:03 AM
Yes it does because Blue Scarf Woman and the woman with the brown jacket and white skirt are the same women as seen in Towner...

You haven’t proven that.

Quote
We can see those women are Simmons, Hicks, and Jacob in Darnell...

You haven’t proven that the tiny blurry people in Towner are the people in Zapruder or in Darnell.

Quote
You have nerve pretending you are getting away with ignoring/denying the blue scarf, brown jacket and white skirt seen in Towner...

You have nerve pretending that your unsubstantiated opinions are proof of anything.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 11, 2019, 07:36:23 AM
Then why did you post a link to Z-151 to make your case?

Because that's the frame we're all familiar with, compliments of Robin Unger, who tried several years ago to set in stone the identities of the people in it, and got only about half of them right.

You're welcome to muck around and look for Z-frames closer to Z-187 or Z-202.

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

Maybe you'll find one in which Templin and Brandt are playing hopscotch or something.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 01:39:32 PM
Because that's the frame we're all familiar with, compliments of Robin Unger, who tried several years ago to set in stone the identities of the people in it, and got only about half of them right.

Says you.

Quote
Maybe you'll find one in which Templin and Brandt are playing hopscotch or something.

I’m still waiting for a coherent argument that these people are even named Templin and Brandt. Just because there’s a hat?
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 11, 2019, 02:05:15 PM
Says you.

I’m still waiting for a coherent argument that these people are even named Templin and Brandt. Just because there’s a hat?

Iacoletti,

Do you see two white guys standing together anywhere else on the north side of Elm Street, and at a point that could be even remotely called "halfway," and with the older of the two wearing a "fedora" hat?

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Along the same lines, did you ever find (light-complected) Karan Hicks and Carol Reed "interspersed" with the non-South West Publishing Company employees in the crowd near the mythological "halfway point"? (Unless, of course, you agree with Westbrook that the dark-complected, poofed-up-black-hair gal "next to" the Stemmons Sign is, ".. uhh, probably Carol Reed," in which case you only need to find Hicks!).

LOL
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 02:26:19 PM
Iacoletti,

You really don’t need to put my name in every post.
 
Quote
Do you see two white guys standing together anywhere else on the north side of Elm Street, and at a point that could be even remotely called "halfway," and with the older of the two wearing a "fedora" hat?

So many assumptions...

How do you know Templin and Brandt were white?
How do you know they were on the north side of Elm street?
How do you know they were at a point that could remotely be called halfway?
How do you know that hat man is older?
How do you know that hat man is wearing a fedora?

Quote
PS  Along the same lines, did you ever find (light-complected) Karan Hicks and Carol Reed "interspersed" with the non-South West Publishing Company employees in the crowd near the mythological "halfway point"? (Unless, of course, you agree with Westbrook that the dark-complected, poofed-up-black-hair gal "next to" the Stemmons Sign is, ".. uhh, probably Carol Reed", in which case you only need to find Hicks.)

From behind and 56 years later?  :D
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 11, 2019, 02:37:15 PM
You really don’t need to put my name in every post.
 
So many assumptions...

How do you know Templin and Brandt were white?
How do you know they were on the north side of Elm street?
How do you know they were at a point that could remotely be called halfway?
How do you know that hat man is older?
How do you know that hat man is wearing a fedora?

From behind and 56 years later?  :D

Iacoletti,

If Karen Westbrook, your only source regarding the identification of "Gloria Calvert" (sic) in Zapruder, could spot herself and "Calvert" and "uhh ... probably Carol Reed" 54 years after-the-fact by looking at herself and "Calvert" and probably Carol Reed from behind in one Zapruder frame, then maybe you can spot Hicks by looking at all the photos and films 56 years after-the-fact.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 03:42:23 PM

A person who is questioning whether or not the two men next to Calvery are Templin and Brandt really should not be allowed to marr the good postings of credible researchers...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 03:56:20 PM
Iacoletti,

You really don't need to put my name in every post.

Quote
If Karen Westbrook, your only source regarding the identification of "Gloria Calvert" (sic) in Zapruder, could spot herself and "Calvert" and "uhh ... probably Carol Reed" 54 years after-the-fact by looking at herself and "Calvert" and probably Carol Reed from behind in one Zapruder frame, then maybe you can spot Hicks by looking at all the photos and films 56 years after-the-fact.

You keep forgetting that Karen Westbrook:

- was there
- was good friends with Gloria Calvery and saw her every day
- also identified herself from the front in Willis 5 (or as you call it "Willis 3")

On the other hand, your only source regarding the identification of Gloria Calvery in Zapruder is:

- There's a blob face in Betzner that you think is either turned, or half washed out, or has "complicated optics" that you think is wearing glasses.
- Craig Calvery (born in 1970) allegedly sent an email to Brian "349 falsehoods" Doyle saying "looks like mom from a height, profile, and glasses standpoint” in something called a "Butler photo".
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 04:45:47 PM
You keep forgetting that Karen Westbrook:

- was there
- was good friends with Gloria Calvery and saw her every day
- also identified herself from the front in Willis 5 (or as you call it "Willis 3")


We've already proven the 3 Women Westbrook called herself, Calvery, and an unknown are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...It is silly to say the un-scarfed head of Holt that shows blonde hair is Calvery after seeing the bright red hair of Calvery in the Christmas photos...Even Fagin challenged Westbrook's obviously errant identification...As did Calvery's own sons who said Tall Woman was their mother...

You're playing naysaying denial games here Iacoletti and your purposes aren't sound and don't deserve equal access with serious posters...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 04:51:21 PM
We've already proven the 3 Women Westbrook called herself, Calvery, and an unknown are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

No you haven't.

Quote
It is silly to say the un-scarfed head of Holt that shows blonde hair is Calvery after seeing the bright red hair of Calvery in the Christmas photos...

What "blonde hair"?

Quote
Even Fagin challenged Westbrook's obviously errant identification...

No he didn't. He merely pointed out that Chris (who hadn't been born yet) disagreed.

Quote
As did Calvery's own sons who said Tall Woman was their mother...

You've provided no evidence for this claim.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 11, 2019, 11:19:34 PM

You keep forgetting that Karen Westbrook:

- was there
- was good friends with Gloria Calvery and saw her every day
- also identified herself from the front in Willis 5 (or as you call it "Willis 3")

On the other hand, your only source regarding the identification of Gloria Calvery in Zapruder is:


Yeah, Karen Westbrook really "nailed it," didn't she?

Uhh ... to smiling and nodding (and prompting?) STEPHEN Fagin, while looking at "herself" from behind in the Zapruder frame and while "she" was wearing a hair-hiding headscarf and a figure-hiding raincoat, some fifty-four years after-the-fact.

Oh yeah, and from the minuscule Willis-5 Willis-3 images of, in reality, blue-headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons, strawberry blondish-haired Gloria Holt, and self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob.

In that equally great identification of herself in Willis-5 Willis-3, she was obviously confusing the very light blue headscarf she wore that day with Sharron Simmons' light blue one.

D'oh

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Westbrook remembered her old buddy Gloria Calvery so incredibly well that she referred to her as "Gloria Calvert" (sic) at least once in that interview, IIRC.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2019, 12:24:21 AM
Oh yeah, and from the minuscule Willis-5 Willis-3 images of, in reality, blue-headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons, strawberry blondish-haired Gloria Holt, and self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob.

It's not just people's names you chronically get wrong.  You can only see "blue-scarf-lady" in Willis FIVE.  And Simmons is SHARON.

Quote
In that equally great identification of herself in Willis-5 Willis-3, she was obviously confusing the very light blue headscarf she wore that day with Sharron Simmons' light blue one.

Too bad you don't actually know what color scarf Simmons was wearing.  Or how "light" Westbrook's scarf was.  You're just making it all up.

Quote
PS  Westbrook remembered her old buddy Gloria Calvery so incredibly well that she referred to her as "Gloria Calvert" (sic) at least once in that interview, IIRC.

Says the guy who knows these people so well that he calls them John Fagin, Sharron Simmons, etc.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 12, 2019, 01:33:23 AM
It's not just people's names you chronically get wrong.  You can only see "blue-scarf-lady" in Willis FIVE.  And Simmons is SHARON.

Too bad you don't actually know what color scarf Simmons was wearing.  Or how "light" Westbrook's scarf was.  You're just making it all up.

Says the guy who knows these people so well that he calls them John Fagin, Sharron Simmons, etc.

Iacoletti,

Apples and Oranges, dude.

Mountains out of molehills.

But thanks for implying that my... gasp ... horrendous mistakes are as momentous (or as "grave," if you will) as Karen Westbrook's all-time xxxx-up in her Sixth Floor Museum interview has turned out to be.

-- MWT   ;)

Speaking of mistakes, please tell us once again why you changed your mind about "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3.

"Insufficient evidence upon blow-up," or some such thing?

LOL
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2019, 05:52:16 AM
Iacoletti,

You don’t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
But thanks for implying that my... gasp ... horrendous mistakes are as momentous (or as "grave," if you will) as Karen Westbrook's all-time xxxx-up in her Sixth Floor Museum interview has turned out to be.

Too bad you can’t actually show that she xxxxed-up and not you. Again. That’s gotta hurt.

Quote
Speaking of mistakes, please tell us once again why you changed your mind about "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3.

Maybe you should just start 5 new threads about it.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 12, 2019, 05:32:39 PM

What "blonde hair"?


You can't get away with that Iacoletti...You are playing dumb and pretending you can't see the difference in color of the hair on the woman Westbrook told Fagin was Calvery and the hair on Calvery in the Christmas photos...The middle woman is un-scarfed and you can see her hair...It is clearly blonde and is clearly not the bright red hair you can see on Calvery in the Christmas photos...

You're ignoring/denying provable evidence and being allowed to get away with it...

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/3-women-comparison.png)

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/office-women-heights.png)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2019, 03:38:53 AM
You can't get away with that Iacoletti...You are playing dumb and pretending you can't see the difference in color of the hair on the woman Westbrook told Fagin was Calvery and the hair on Calvery in the Christmas photos..

She’s standing outside in direct sunlight. Of course the color looks different. Besides the Christmas photos are a month later.

Quote
The middle woman is un-scarfed and you can see her hair...It is clearly blonde

It’s not clearly blonde, it’s red.
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 13, 2019, 04:37:55 AM


It can be seen better in the brownies photo...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 13, 2019, 10:54:41 AM
Maybe you should just start 5 new threads about it.

Iacoletti,

I won't have to start five new threads about your disingenousness regarding "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3 if you'll confess to the following:

1)  In your desperation to not have to follow my lead by (gasp) referring to her as "black blouse - black headscarf woman" (or some-such thing), and your "fortuitously" noticing that she was possibly wearing glasses in that photo, and (hooray!) confirming for yourself by enlarging her face a bit that she really was wearing glasses ...


2) ... and rightly proceeding to refer to her as "Glasses Woman" ...

3) ...  you belatedly realized (or remembered?) that Gloria Calvery is wearing glasses like that in all of the photos we have of her ...

4) ... and so you abruptly started referring to her as "Tall Woman," instead.

5)  Then, upon being "called out" for having done so, ...

7)  ... you disingenuously over-enlarged her face to the point of extreme blurriness ...

6)  ... and posted said blurry, blown-up crop ...

7)  ... and proclaimed (like the carnival barker that you are), "Looky, looky, looky, folks!  She's not wearing glasses -- she just has a pet dragonfly and wears way too much mascara!"

LOL

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 13, 2019, 11:48:56 PM

If Altgens aimed his camera slightly more left we would have a high quality crisp image of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook in a row...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 14, 2019, 05:02:01 AM
Iacoletti,

You don’t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
1)  In your desperation to not have to follow my lead by (gasp) referring to her as "black blouse - black headscarf woman" (or some-such thing),

I don’t give a damn what you call her.

Quote
and your "fortuitously" noticing that she was possibly wearing glasses in that photo, and (hooray!) confirming for yourself by enlarging her face a bit that she really was wearing glasses ...

Nope. I thought she was wearing glasses until I enlarged the photo, at which point I couldn’t tell if she was or not.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 14, 2019, 05:02:37 AM
If Altgens aimed his camera slightly more left we would have a high quality crisp image of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook in a row...

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 14, 2019, 11:10:59 PM
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Iacoletti,

No, but you wouldn't be here effing-up gullible newbies, those who can't see very well, and even "established researchers" who ... uhh ... can't  think very critically.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 15, 2019, 04:52:24 AM
No, but you wouldn't be here effing-up gullible newbies, those who can't see very well, and even "established researchers" who ... uhh ... can't  think very critically.

Such as yourself?
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 15, 2019, 04:02:50 PM

And here we are at the infantile naysaying tit for tat that Iacoletti always tries to get the thread down to...Meanwhile Iacoletti has not been forced to answer that the man Graves is referencing IS Templin...Or that Tall Woman IS Calvery and does have glasses...

Since Holt doesn't have glasses that forces Tall Woman to be Calvery...This is what Iacoletti is trying to get the thread away from because he doesn't want to account for attacking good evidence... 
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 04:20:33 AM
And here we are at the infantile naysaying tit for tat that Iacoletti always tries to get the thread down to...Meanwhile Iacoletti has not been forced to answer that the man Graves is referencing IS Templin...Or that Tall Woman IS Calvery and does have glasses...

Because Graves says so?  :D

Quote
Since Holt doesn't have glasses that forces Tall Woman to be Calvery.

Don’t be absurd. Nothing forces tall woman to be Calvery.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 16, 2019, 06:01:06 AM
Because Graves says so?  :D

Iacoletti,

John Templin, Ernest Brandt, Jean Newman, and June Dishong are four of the very few people, along with A. J. Millican and journalists Aurelia Lorenzo, Mary Woodward, Ann Donaldson, and Maggie Brown, and, down the street, the Newmans and the Chisms, that Robin Unger and (in his early map) Don Roberdeau actually got right on the north side of Elm Street sidewalk.  So I'm not the only one who says Templin can be seen standing next to your "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3, and who says Brandt can be seen standing on the other side of Templin in Willis-5.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 16, 2019, 06:25:34 AM
Don’t be absurd. Nothing forces tall woman to be Calvery.


Nothing except all the evidence you've been naysaying in contempt and the fact you can't show Calvery anywhere else...You know that's Calvery as well as I do...
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 07:59:10 PM
Iacoletti,

You don't need to put my name in every post.

Quote
John Templin, Ernest Brandt, Jean Newman, and June Dishong are four of the very few people, along with A. J. Millican and journalists Aurelia Lorenzo, Mary Woodward, Ann Donaldson, and Maggie Brown, and, down the street, the Newmans and the Chisms, that Robin Unger and (in his early map) Don Roberdeau actually got right on the north side of Elm Street sidewalk.

Your assessment on what they got right or wrong means absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 08:00:56 PM
Nothing except all the evidence you've been naysaying in contempt and the fact you can't show Calvery anywhere else...You know that's Calvery as well as I do...

You can't show that it's Calvery.  I don't have to show that she is somewhere else.  You have the burden of proof.

Note that I said proof -- not stomping your feet and insisting you are right over and over.
Title: Re: Photographic Proof John Templin's Standing Next To "Glasses Woman" In Betzner-3
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 20, 2019, 05:26:44 PM
John Iacoletti denies that it can be proved from the photos and films that his "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3 is  Big-Tall, Black-Blouse And Black-Headscarf-Wearing Woman (Gloria Calvery) in the Zapruder film.

However ...

If he were to were to read Dallas News' November 2012 article https://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtown-dallas/2012/11/22/two-eyewitnesses-reunite-once-a-year-on-anniversary-of-kennedys-death about JFK assassination witnesses Ernest Brandt and John Templin, ...

... and if he were to look at Robin Unger's infamous yellow-labeled Zapruder-151 frame and at Don Roberdeau's Map and find in them (gasp ... correctly-labeled!) Ernest Brand standing next to his (gasp ... correctly labeled!) 21 year-old friend John Templin, ...

... and if he were to look at the people, cars, and background in Betzner-3 and compare them with the people, cars, and background in Willis-5, ...

... Scrolling down until he finds said photos, and then enlarge them to his heart's content --
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm

... taking special care to notice that John Templin is in both Betzner-3 and Willis-5), ...

... and if he were to take into consideration the fact that Hugh Betzner -- whose "Betzner-3" was taken simultaneously with Z-187 and 0.874/second before "Willis-5" -- was standing on the other side of Elm Street, about 30 feet behind and a little to the left of Phil Willis (per Zapruder's LOS at Z-187) on the other side of Elm Street, ...

... and if he were to realize that Robin Unger's seriously mislabeled Zapruder frame is Z-151, and that Betzner-3 was taken simultaneously with Zapruder-187, and that Willis-5 was taken simultaneously with Zapruder-202, ...

... and if he were to realize that Abraham Zapruder can be seen standing on his pedestal and very near the L-R center point of both Willis-3 and Betzner-5 ( http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm ; ignore the red circle around so-called Black Dog Man in Willis-5), ...

... and if he were to realize that both Phil Willis and Hugh Betzner are visible in the background of Unger's yellow-labeled Z-151 frame (or at least in a clearer frame near it), ...

... well gosh, taking all of the above together (I mean he IS capable of doing that sort of thing, isn't he?), ...

... he'd realize that fedora-wearing trilby-wearing Ernest Brandt can be seen standing next to John Templin in Willis-5, and that John Templin can be seen standing next to your "Glasses Woman" (Gloria Calvery) in Betzner-3.

-- MWT  :)

edited and bumped