JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on March 26, 2019, 09:33:30 PM
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Question #1!
How soon after the shooting did Mr Howard Brennan inform police that the shots had come from the southeast window of the sixth floor?
Question #2!
How soon after the shooting did the police find the 'Sniper's Nest' at the window Mr Brennan had helpfully pointed them to?
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Seymour Wietzman states here he was told the shots came from the TSBD approximately 15 minutes after hearing the shots. 12:45pm
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi2.jpg)
The rifle was found at 1:22pm.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0433-0013.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/boone765-1.jpg)
Looks like the rifle was found about 10 minutes after the alleged snipers nest. SN FOUND @1:12pm
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/theSNbag001.jpg)
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According to Sorrels, Brennan told him about the window about 20 minutes after the assassination and that the people standing around directed him to Brennan.
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Question #1!
How soon after the shooting did Mr Howard Brennan inform police that the shots had come from the southeast window of the sixth floor?
Question #2!
How soon after the shooting did the police find the 'Sniper's Nest' at the window Mr Brennan had helpfully pointed them to?
Thumb1:
Thank you, Alan ..If Howard Brennan had pointed out the SE corner window as the place where he's seen a man STANDING AND AIMING A HIGH POWERED (hunting) RIFLE then why wasn't that site discovered immediately??? I'm sure you know that Luke Mooney simply stumbled upon that site at about 1:06 pm which was about a half hour after Brennan told the police that he's seen the 175 pound man who was dressed il light colored khaki clothing behind a window of the TSBD. And Brennan could NOT have been referring to the SE corner window because a man could NOT have stood behind that window and aimed a rifle OUT OF THE WINDOW so that about 85% of the rifle was visible to Howard Brennan. The boxes stacked behind the window would have prevented any man who attempted to stand and aim a rifle from that window from doing so..... The man would have been squeezed between the window and the boxes.....
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Thank you, Alan ..If Howard Brennan had pointed out the SE corner window as the place where he's seen a man STANDING AND AIMING A HIGH POWERED (hunting) RIFLE then why wasn't that site discovered immediately??? I'm sure you know that Luke Mooney simply stumbled upon that site at about 1:06 pm which was about a half hour after Brennan told the police that he's seen the 175 pound man who was dressed il light colored khaki clothing behind a window of the TSBD. And Brennan could NOT have been referring to the SE corner window because a man could NOT have stood behind that window and aimed a rifle OUT OF THE WINDOW so that about 85% of the rifle was visible to Howard Brennan. The boxes stacked behind the window would have prevented any man who attempted to stand and aim a rifle from that window from doing so..... The man would have been squeezed between the window and the boxes.....
Brennan wasn't the only person to see a rifle in the SE window. Were all these people mistaken or lying? Bullet casings were found by that window. Let me guess. No one here is alleging the evidence is faked or the product of lies. Right? That is just a "strawman" claim. The evidence is all suspect but no one is responsible. It is just so.
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Brennan wasn't the only person to see a rifle in the SE window. Were all these people mistaken or lying? Bullet casings were found by that window. Let me guess. No one here is alleging the evidence is faked or the product of lies. Right? That is just a "strawman" claim. The evidence is all suspect but no one is responsible. It is just so.
It is a real possibility that the conspirators had someone make a piece of steel visible, through that window and plant a few empty cases, to make it appear the shots came from there, while in reality the shot might just have passed through the window, while being fired from the building behind it. The fact that the alleged SN was part of the corner of the building allowed a shot to come in one window and out the other.
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Brennan wasn't the only person to see a rifle in the SE window.
Yeah, if you count after-the-fact mentions of "projection" or "pipe thing". Nobody, other than Euins claimed they saw their "projection" discharge.
But these other reports (if they were made at the time) make it even more incredible that the so-called "sniper's nest" wasn't located by the Keystone Kops for half an hour.
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It is a real possibility that the conspirators had someone make a piece of steel visible, through that window and plant a few empty cases, to make it appear the shots came from there, while in reality the shot might just have passed through the window, while being fired from the building behind it. The fact that the alleged SN was part of the corner of the building allowed a shot to come in one window and out the other.
A ?real? possibility? Seriously? Can you name these conspirators?
The fact any individual can post this kind of crap 56 years after the event is frightening.
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One needs to look at the situation as it developed to get a better understanding of the sequence and timing of events. Brennan did not immediately run across the street and talk to ploice. Barnett (from memory) was the officer closest to the TSBD entrance and he initially went west and up Houston towards the rear of the building, trying to cover the rear and side fire escape. He returned after a minute or so. I believe he is the first officer that Brennan talked to and it was during Barnett's return to the TSBD entrance.
Many police deputies has gone towards the railyards and the instruction from the motorcade was to search there. Back at the TSBD I believe Sawyer had arrived some minutes later and after brief conversation that gave him some indication of an upper floor, took the passenger elevator with some other officers and could go no further that the 4th floor. Here he met briefly with Truly and Baker coming down on the east freight elevator from the roof. This must have been at least five or maybe 10 minutes after the shots. Total confusion reigned. Sawyer returned to the entrance. Mooney and other sherrifs deputies (Boone, Craig, Walters, Weatherford etc) eventually headed to the TSBD and began a "ramshackle" search. It does not appear to be coordinated in any meaningful way. I do not believe Brennan's precise "shooter location" was communicated to the people undertaking the search at all. Mooney was unaware of Brennan?s observation and the SN was "stumbled" upon independently.
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A ?real? possibility? Seriously? Can you name these conspirators?
The fact any individual can post this kind of crap 56 years after the event is frightening.
So you agree it is a possibility, to have a decoy SN but actually fire the shots through it, from the building behind? then this is something positive at least, this shows you guys can be brought around to face reality.
While I can't give you precise names of those conspirators on the ground, during the assassination
Walker knew who they were, he set it all up, and then took a flight to distance himself from the area as his alibi.
Right wing John Birchers un American KKK x military racist W.A.S.P's, he had a good pool to pull the shooter and spotters out from.
I have strong reasons to believe that a few under his command during service were the actual gunmen
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One needs to look at the situation as it developed to get a better understanding of the sequence and timing of events. Brennan did not immediately run across the street and talk to ploice. Barnett (from memory) was the officer closest to the TSBD entrance and he initially went west and up Houston towards the rear of the building, trying to cover the rear and side fire escape. He returned after a minute or so. I believe he is the first officer that Brennan talked to and it was during Barnett's return to the TSBD entrance.
Many police deputies has gone towards the railyards and the instruction from the motorcade was to search there. Back at the TSBD I believe Sawyer had arrived some minutes later and after brief conversation that gave him some indication of an upper floor, took the passenger elevator with some other officers and could go no further that the 4th floor. Here he met briefly with Truly and Baker coming down on the east freight elevator from the roof. This must have been at least five or maybe 10 minutes after the shots. Total confusion reigned. Sawyer returned to the entrance. Mooney and other sherrifs deputies (Boone, Craig, Walters, Weatherford etc) eventually headed to the TSBD and began a "ramshackle" search. It does not appear to be coordinated in any meaningful way. I do not believe Brennan's precise "shooter location" was communicated to the people undertaking the search at all. Mooney was unaware of Brennan?s observation and the SN was "stumbled" upon independently.
If Brennan reported that he'd seen a gunman aiming a rifle from that SE corner window at approximately 12:40 then why wasn't a investigator dispatched immediately to that site... We know that officers on the scene were reporting to headquarters and headquarters broadcast a APB for the suspect at 12:45....So how do you explain Mooney simply stumbling upon the spent shells behind the SE corner window at 1:06?
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If Brennan reported that he'd seen a gunman aiming a rifle from that SE corner window at approximately 12:40 then why wasn't a investigator dispatched immediately to that site... We know that officers on the scene were reporting to headquarters and headquarters broadcast a APB for the suspect at 12:45....So how do you explain Mooney simply stumbling upon the spent shells behind the SE corner window at 1:06?
What was more important at the time? Someone saw a man with a gun firing from the SE window of an upper floor. There have been several minutes pass by since the shots. How is that information communicated effectively. Do you send officers to that specific location? Do you block the exits? Do you organise a systematic search from the ground up? How is this organised?
What really happened was what I summarised in the previous post. Sawyer charging up using the "wrong" elevator. Other deputies (eg Mooney) entering via the rear door and simply looking around for anyone suspicious it seems. In other words "chaos" reigned supreme. Not everything needs to have sinister overtones......for all we know Brennan might have said the "top floor" to Sawyer who simply got to the top floor (4th) of the passenger elevator. Then saw Truly and Baker coming down, who reported the coast was clear on the upper floors. At that time determining whether there was a gunman loose in the building was surely a higher priority than visualising where he had been.
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What was more important at the time? Someone saw a man with a gun firing from the SE window of an upper floor. There have been several minutes pass by since the shots. How is that information communicated effectively. Do you send officers to that specific location? Do you block the exits? Do you organise a systematic search from the ground up? How is this organised?
What really happened was what I summarised in the previous post. Sawyer charging up using the "wrong" elevator. Other deputies (eg Mooney) entering via the rear door and simply looking around for anyone suspicious it seems. In other words "chaos" reigned supreme. Not everything needs to have sinister overtones......for all we know Brennan might have said the "top floor" to Sawyer who simply got to the top floor (4th) of the passenger elevator. Then saw Truly and Baker coming down, who reported the coast was clear on the upper floors. At that time determining whether there was a gunman loose in the building was surely a higher priority than visualising where he had been.
Your point about chaos and priorities is well taken, Mr Crow! Thumb1:
However... it is very odd IMO that Mr Brennan's quick, clear and highly specific information as to which window the gunman had fired from would have failed to result in someone checking out the window in question. Instead we get many minutes of aimless searching that culminates in a 'Hey look, guys, there's shells under this here window!' moment.
It almost seems as if not one witness pointed them to that window...
Cf Patrolman J. J. Hill's 12:37 dispatch:
"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."
(https://i.imgur.com/gNQkg1h.jpg)
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I agree that it seems to be an extended period for the SN to be "discovered". But it appears that little was coordinated in any meaningful way for some time. There were at least two uniformed police (Barnett and Smith) close to the TSBD at the time of the shots.Smith ran almost immediately towards the east and Barnett to the west as mentioned previously. I think Brennan approached Barnett on his way back towards the TSBD entrance. Sawyer appeared at the entrance via car some minutes later. Baker had already run inside.
There was no adequate sealing of the building. We know many employees entered the building and some managed to get out. Sherrifs deputies entered after searching the railyards. How was Brennan?s message conveyed to any of these groups? Sorrels arrived at the TSBD from Parkland and I believe attempted to instigate some order. In any event I would think the immediate priority would be to determine the whereabouts of the gunman, not necessarily where he had been. I think Mooney even says a preliminary check of the 6th floor showed nothing and he discovered the shells only after coming back from the 7th floor. I am unsure of any witnesses who recalled being told of the exact location supplied from Brennan apart from Barnett and Sawyer in the first 10-15 minutes.
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Your point about chaos and priorities is well taken, Mr Crow! Thumb1:
However... it is very odd IMO that Mr Brennan's quick, clear and highly specific information as to which window the gunman had fired from would have failed to result in someone checking out the window in question. Instead we get many minutes of aimless searching that culminates in a 'Hey look, guys, there's shells under this here window!' moment.
It almost seems as if not one witness pointed them to that window...
Cf Patrolman J. J. Hill's 12:37 dispatch:
"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."
(https://i.imgur.com/gNQkg1h.jpg)
Of course it couldn't have been the seventh floor window because that window was closed.....And it couldn't have been the sixth floor either because the boxes would have squeezed any gunman standing there too close to tghw window to aim a rifle from that window which would have allowed Brennan to see about 85% of the HIGH POWERED rifle.
Therefore I believe that Brennan told the police that he's seen the man STANDING AND AIMING THE HIGH POWERED rifle behind the WIDE OPEN window at the WEST end of the sixth floor..... And that's where Arnold Rowland saw the man ......
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I'm not sure why Brennan is always singled out as the witness to which window the shots came from. He is certainly an important witness since he gives his report within a few minutes and couldn't be influenced by later reports. But Bob Jackson saw a rifle in that window and pointed it out to Couch who also saw it. He did that at the moment of the assassination and not "after the fact." He saw a "rifle" and not a "pipe" object. There is no doubt that there was a person pointing a rifle out that window at the moment of the assassination. To suggest otherwise is to be dishonest like claiming when Marina testified that she looked in the blanket and saw a "rifle" and responded dozens of times to questions about a "rifle" that she saw only something made of wood. LOL.
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I'm not sure why Brennan is always singled out as the witness to which window the shots came from. He is certainly an important witness since he gives his report within a few minutes and couldn't be influenced by later reports.
We don't know what Brennan may or may not have said "within a few minutes".
But Bob Jackson saw a rifle in that window and pointed it out to Couch who also saw it.
Jackson said "I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw". Couch said "And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel", and that was after Jackson said "there's the rifle", so it's not like it was an independent identification of an actual rifle. Also keep in mind that these are recollections over 4 months later after the narrative was firmly planted in the American psyche.
Conclusion: they caught a brief glimpse of something narrow sticking out of a window after hearing shots and assumed it was a rifle. Just like Marina saw part of something in a rolled and tied blanket and assumed it was a rifle. Ruth Paine tells us what Marina said to her before she mistranslated it to the police.
Mrs. PAINE - And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.
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Incidentally, here's a photo I took from Brennan's position on a recent trip to Dealey Plaza.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brennan-view.jpg)
Jackson and Couch would have been another half a block away.
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We don't know what Brennan may or may not have said "within a few minutes".
Exactly, Mr Iacoletti----and the point applies to Mr Euins too, as well as to the witnesses (if neither Mr Brennan nor Mr Euins) who gave Patrolmen Hill & Brewer the information behind their 12:37 p.m. dispatches!
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Semi-on-topic question!
Mr Brennan, in his same-day affidavit, says:
"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds."
What does "nice looking" mean here? Neat?
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In JAQer/CTer wonderland, it couldashouldawoulda been a curtain-rod 'something narrow' sticking out that window. Or maybe a yardstick.
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In JAQer/CTer wonderland, it couldashouldawoulda been a curtain-rod 'something narrow' sticking out that window. Or maybe a yardstick.
In ODIA wonderland, "if I want to believe there was a rifle, then there was a rifle".
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We don't know what Brennan may or may not have said "within a few minutes".
Jackson said "I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw". Couch said "And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel", and that was after Jackson said "there's the rifle", so it's not like it was an independent identification of an actual rifle. Also keep in mind that these are recollections over 4 months later after the narrative was firmly planted in the American psyche.
Conclusion: they caught a brief glimpse of something narrow sticking out of a window after hearing shots and assumed it was a rifle. Just like Marina saw part of something in a rolled and tied blanket and assumed it was a rifle. Ruth Paine tells us what Marina said to her before she mistranslated it to the police.
Mrs. PAINE - And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.
It was probably the rifle.. but by all means, feel free to suggest what else the 'something narrow' could have been.
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In ODIA wonderland, "if I want to believe there was a rifle, then there was a rifle".
In JAQer/CTer wonderland, 'if I want to believe there was no rifle, then there was no rifle'
BTW, I'm not ODIA
I'm OPDIA
;)
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It was probably the rifle.. but by all means, feel free to suggest what else the 'something narrow' could have been.
Shifting the burden of proof again? Why was it "probably" a rifle (much less THE rifle)?
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In JAQer/CTer wonderland, 'if I want to believe there was no rifle, then there was no rifle'
Belief has nothing to do with it. What can be proven with evidence, rather than an arbitrary and capricious declaration of probability?
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Shifting the burden of proof again? Why was it "probably" a rifle (much less THE rifle)?
::)
A rifle was seen in that window
Or did Euins/Brennan imagine it
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A rifle was seen in that window
Or did Euins/Brennan imagine it
Euins is the one who called it "pipe thing". Brennan claimed to see all kinds of details.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brennan-view.jpg)
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By the way, describe the people looking out the 7th floor window. Yes, there are people looking out the 7th floor window.
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Belief has nothing to do with it. What can be proven with evidence, rather than an arbitrary and capricious declaration of probability?
If it shoots like a rifle it must be a rifle
Brennan said the gunman, after the final shot, stepped away from the window with the rifle
Jackson et al looked up too late to as much as what Brennan saw
BFD to JAQers/CTers huh..
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If it shoots like a rifle it must be a rifle
Brennan said the gunman, after the final shot, stepped away from the window with the rifle
Jackson et al looked up too late to as much as what Brennan saw
BFD to JAQers/CTers huh..
Brennan said the gunman, after the final shot, stepped away from the window with the rifle
Excellent point Mr Crapman.... Now please explain to the folks HOW a gunman could step away from the window with the barricade boxes stacked behind him? ???
So not only would the barricade have squeezed a man STANDING behind that window and prevented him from aiming a rifle down onto Elm street, that barricade would also have prevented him from stepping back away from that window. Thank you for presenting the proof that the gunman was NOT behind that SE corner window....
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In JAQer/CTer wonderland, it couldashouldawoulda been a curtain-rod 'something narrow' sticking out that window. Or maybe a yardstick.
Using Dishonest John's form of mislogic, no one saw John Wilkes Booth shoot Lincoln. They heard a bang, looked in that direction, and saw him holding a smoking object made of "wood" pointing at Lincoln's head. You can't make that kind of nonsense up. Jackson pointed out the "rifle" and another person saw it. A search found bullet casings by that window. John doesn't even believe his own nonsense. It's Alice-in-Wonderland defense attorney bull. Just playing the lazy contrarian again.
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Semi-on-topic question!
Mr Brennan, in his same-day affidavit, says:
"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds."
What does "nice looking" mean here? Neat?
Thumb1:
Maybe Brennan was bent just like Mr Walker the mastermind behind the assassination :-[
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Using Dishonest John's form of mislogic, no one saw John Wilkes Booth shoot Lincoln. They heard a bang, looked in that direction, and saw him holding a smoking object made of "wood" pointing at Lincoln's head. You can't make that kind of nonsense up.
You just did. Unfortunately for Strawman "Richard", nobody saw Oswald holding a smoking object made out of anything pointed at Kennedy's head.
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Maybe Brennan was bent just like Mr Walker the mastermind behind the assassination :-[
What does "nice looking" mean here?
I assume the guy didn't look like Mr Iacoletti's avatar ..... He didn't look like an evil killer from an old "B" horse sh-- and gun smoke western movie...
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I assume the guy didn't look like Mr Iacoletti's avatar ..... He didn't look like an evil killer from an old "B" horse sh-- and gun smoke western movie...
Hey, Jerry Organ worked hard on that!
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It was probably the rifle.. but by all means, feel free to suggest what else the 'something narrow' could have been.
feel free to suggest what else the 'something narrow' could have been.
Michael Paine said he thought it was camping equipment and he actually held the blanket and moved it around several times?.
Are you saying he was wrong?
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Using Dishonest John's form of mislogic, no one saw John Wilkes Booth shoot Lincoln. They heard a bang, looked in that direction, and saw him holding a smoking object made of "wood" pointing at Lincoln's head. You can't make that kind of nonsense up. Jackson pointed out the "rifle" and another person saw it. A search found bullet casings by that window. John doesn't even believe his own nonsense. It's Alice-in-Wonderland defense attorney bull. Just playing the lazy contrarian again.
Who did see the gun discharge at the back of Lincoln's head? Not that I doubt Booth was the perpetrator. I doubt there were many (if any) witnesses to the "gun firing" event. If only Oswald had leapt onto Elm after the shots.
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Who did see the gun discharge at the back of Lincoln's head? Not that I doubt Booth was the perpetrator. I doubt there were many (if any) witnesses to the "gun firing" event. If only Oswald had leapt onto Elm after the shots.
Probably no one saw Booth pull the trigger but there is no doubt that he did. That is the point. You can make a logical inference. Someone hears a gunshot and then sees a gun pointed at the person who has just been shot. What conclusion would a normal person reach? Maybe that the shot had just been fired from that weapon. Not that someone else shot Lincoln or that the object being held wasn't a gun but an object made of "wood." The issue here is whether there was a gunman in the 6th floor window as confirmed by Brennan and others. The answer is yes. Does that alone mean Oswald was the assassin? Of course not. But that is just the first link in the chain. The police find a rifle and bullet casings on the floor/window from which witnesses confirm the shots came from. The second link. That rifle belongs to Oswald an employee in the building. The bullet casings found by the window are from his rifle. More links. Oswald has no credible alibi for the moment of the assassination. He flees the building, has a bizarre political background. He is implicated in another murder less than an hour later. He resists arrests, lies to the police about his ownership of the rifle. Under the totality of circumstances and facts, the case is a slam dunk of guilt. Any counternarrative premised on Oswald being framed or blundering into guilt by, for example, lying about matters that would have assisted his cause by telling the truth are laughable defense attorney tactics to create false doubt regarding a client they know is stone cold guilty. It's absurd nonsense.
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Hey, Jerry Organ worked hard on that!
I do hope that Mr Organ doesn't aspire to become another Leonardo da Vinci.......
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Probably no one saw Booth pull the trigger but there is no doubt that he did. That is the point. You can make a logical inference. Someone hears a gunshot and then sees a gun pointed at the person who has just been shot. What conclusion would a normal person reach? Maybe that the shot had just been fired from that weapon. Not that someone else shot Lincoln or that the object being held wasn't a gun but an object made of "wood." The issue here is whether there was a gunman in the 6th floor window as confirmed by Brennan and others. The answer is yes. Does that alone mean Oswald was the assassin? Of course not. But that is just the first link in the chain. The police find a rifle and bullet casings on the floor/window from which witnesses confirm the shots came from. The second link. That rifle belongs to Oswald an employee in the building. The bullet casings found by the window are from his rifle. More links. Oswald has no credible alibi for the moment of the assassination. He flees the building, has a bizarre political background. He is implicated in another murder less than an hour later. He resists arrests, lies to the police about his ownership of the rifle. Under the totality of circumstances and facts, the case is a slam dunk of guilt. Any counternarrative premised on Oswald being framed or blundering into guilt by, for example, lying about matters that would have assisted his cause by telling the truth are laughable defense attorney tactics to create false doubt regarding a client they know is stone cold guilty. It's absurd nonsense.
What happened in Lincolns case can not be compared to the J.F.K one.
Booth ran for the hills, while Oswald went to the cinema after looking at shoes for his daughter, and according to Milteer someone like Oswald would be picked up to throw the public off.
With firecrackers been let off in the Plazza and a whole host of other decoys set in place, it is quite obvious that Oswald was innocent and did not even hear the shots which were fired from over in the Dal Tex
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Probably no one saw Booth pull the trigger but there is no doubt that he did. That is the point. You can make a logical inference. Someone hears a gunshot and then sees a gun pointed at the person who has just been shot. What conclusion would a normal person reach? Maybe that the shot had just been fired from that weapon. Not that someone else shot Lincoln or that the object being held wasn't a gun but an object made of "wood."
Marina?s piece of wood was 6 weeks earlier in a different location, Strawman ?Smith?.
The issue here is whether there was a gunman in the 6th floor window as confirmed by Brennan and others. The answer is yes. Does that alone mean Oswald was the assassin? Of course not.
Enough said.
But that is just the first link in the chain. The police find a rifle and bullet casings on the floor/window from which witnesses confirm the shots came from.
No witness ?confirmed? that shots came from there.
The second link. That rifle belongs to Oswald an employee in the building.
. . . and that?s where your argument falls apart.
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12:37 pm Patrolman J. J. Hill:
"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."
Anyone hearing this would focus on this window:
(https://i.imgur.com/gNQkg1h.jpg)
Now!
Just before Patrolman Hill's dispatch, at 12:36 pm, we get this from Sergeant D. V. Harkness:
"I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store."
At least that's what the transcript says, and the audio does sound rather like 'fifth'.
But!
If you listen to the start of Sergeant Harkness' dispatch-----------
https://soundcloud.com/dallasnews/jfk-dallas-police-dispatch-1 (https://soundcloud.com/dallasnews/jfk-dallas-police-dispatch-1)
------------he announces his number. One could easily make the mistake of thinking he is saying '250'. But he's not. His number is 260.
By the same token, he may also be saying 'sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store' a couple of seconds later.
I wonder whether the following might explain the remarkably long time it took for the 6th floor 'Sniper's Nest' to be found:
The first two dispatches identifying the window lead police to the 7th floor southeast corner, 2nd window from the right.
(Note: many people looking at the building from the outside started counting floors by the presence of windows------i.e. what we know as 'sixth floor' they counted as 'fifth floor'; what we call 'seventh floor' they saw as 'sixth floor'.)
Benign interpretation: the initial dispatches were erroneous or were interpreted erroneously.
Sinister interpretation: the second window on the 7th floor was indeed pulled up as JFK proceeded down Elm, and a rifle was indeed pointed out of it.
(https://i.imgur.com/gNQkg1h.jpg)
Those minded to favor the latter interpretation will note that note that DPD photographed precisely this area, and (as far as the record shows) this area alone, of the seventh floor::
(https://i.imgur.com/vtnCJsv.png)
Why was the southeast corner of the seventh floor of interest to them?
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C.f. these later images of the 7th fl window in question!
(https://i.imgur.com/ZzzKpWM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZyDRpPe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Mys6o4I.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TP0ywO6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jf3ozN1.jpg)
These photos are taken from a range of angles, yet the white spots/streaks don't seem to change position relative to the window.
Are they on the window-pane itself??
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What happened in Lincolns case can not be compared to the J.F.K one.
Booth ran for the hills, while Oswald went to the cinema after looking at shoes for his daughter, and according to Milteer someone like Oswald would be picked up to throw the public off.
With firecrackers been let off in the Plazza and a whole host of other decoys set in place, it is quite obvious that Oswald was innocent and did not even hear the shots which were fired from over in the Dal Tex
Sure it can if you are like some here trying to raise false dobut. They claim no one saw Oswald pull the trigger. Therefore it creates doubt he was the assassin. Using that same mislogic, no one saw Booth pull the trigger. What did they see and hear? A gunshot at the moment of the assassination. They look in that direction and see a person holding a gun or as one nut claims something made of "wood" pointed a Lincoln. According to CTer logic, no inference can be drawn about what happened. Maybe, for example, Lincoln committed suicide and Booth had the misfortune to pick up the gun. He realized it looked bad and panicked. An innocent man framed.
Brennan saw Oswald holding a rifle in the same manner as witnesses saw Booth but dishonest CTers argue that doesn't mean Oswald shot JFK. It's complete nonsense. A defense attorney tactic in a desperate attempt to raise false doubt. The only difference between Booth's flight and Oswald's is that Booth had a horse. They both were making tracks though. If you think Oswald went shoe shopping for his daughter right after the president had been assassinated in front of his building and all chaos was breaking loose and a police officer had pulled a gun on him, then you can't be taken seriously. And what kind of shoe shopping did he do without entering the store? LOL. Ridiculous. And then he sneaks into the TT without a buying a ticket. You don't find any of that behavior suspicious. Just Mr. Magoo out for an afternoon stroll while chaos is all around him.
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C.f. these later images of the 7th fl window in question!
(https://i.imgur.com/ZzzKpWM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZyDRpPe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Mys6o4I.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TP0ywO6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jf3ozN1.jpg)
These photos are taken from a range of angles, yet the white spots/streaks don't seem to change position relative to the window.
Are they on the window-pane itself??
Yes I believe they are dirty windows.....
Thank you for posting the nice large photos.....I've long been interested in the third floor window where Mr Wilson said that he was standing and watching the activities from his office window.....
(https://i.imgur.com/jf3ozN1.jpg)
In this photo he seems to be sitting and possibly talking to a tall woman who is to his left and close to the right hand side of the window.
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Yes I believe they are dirty windows.....
Thank you for posting the nice large photos.....I've long been interested in the third floor window where Mr Wilson said that he was standing and watching the activities from his office window.....
(https://i.imgur.com/jf3ozN1.jpg)
In this photo he seems to be sitting and possibly talking to a tall woman who is to his left and close to the right hand side of the window.
(https://i.imgur.com/jf3ozN1.jpg)
After closer scrutiny I believe that Mr Wilson is STANDING but a bit further back in the room than the woman who is closer to the window.
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Watch Brennan point out Norman to Harkness in the Hughes film and witness him hide behind the sergeant immediately afterwards.
Brennan was scared of the men on the fifth by then since he'd learnt of a shooting. That's where he thought the trouble came from(whatever it was), the fifth and that's what he's probably talking to the traffic cops about when caught by Murray, 2mins after the motorcade and they could care less what he's going on about.
IMHO, fwiw, etc.
Getting caught napping during a major event is worth lying about, all the alternate gets you is "you were there and saw nothing!?!"
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Sure it can if you are like some here trying to raise false dobut. They claim no one saw Oswald pull the trigger. Therefore it creates doubt he was the assassin. Using that same mislogic, no one saw Booth pull the trigger.
No one saw Oswald at all. A whole theater full of people saw Booth. Your analogy is ridiculous.
Brennan saw Oswald holding a rifle in the same manner as witnesses saw Booth but dishonest CTers argue that doesn't mean Oswald shot JFK.
Brennan didn?t identify Oswald in a lineup on 11/22, even after seeing his picture on television. He then embellished a story involving seeing a guy who would have necessarily had to have been crouched down behind boxes ?from the belt up?, and could also somehow determine how tall he was too.
Again, nothing like Booth.
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No one saw Oswald at all. A whole theater full of people saw Booth. Your analogy is ridiculous.
Brennan didn?t identify Oswald in a lineup on 11/22, even after seeing his picture on television. He then embellished a story involving seeing a guy who would have necessarily had to have been crouched down behind boxes ?from the belt up?, and could also somehow determine how tall he was too.
Again, nothing like Booth.
'No one saw Oswald at all' huh
Don't you mean no theatre patrons saw Oswald at all?
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/1274-001.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/failedtoidentify.jpg)
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Thank you, Mr Craig! Thumb1:
I really would like to see a contemporary photo of Mr Jack Dougherty! (Not because I think he was a gunman, but because I think it's just possible he innocently did exactly what Messrs Lovelady & others involved in the floor-laying had talked about doing------going back up to the 6th floor to get a good view of the parade.)
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Semi-On-Topic Question!
Could this be the man Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig will see getting into a Rambler?
(https://i.imgur.com/PcAjddE.gif)
Thumb1:
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Semi-On-Topic Question!
Could this be the man Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig will see getting into a Rambler?
(https://i.imgur.com/PcAjddE.gif)
Thumb1:
Looks like Lee Oswald to me.....
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Looks like Lee Oswald to me.....
The resemblance is uncanny alright! Thumb1:
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The resemblance is uncanny alright! Thumb1:
Can you stop action?....and enlarge the image....
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Can you stop action?....and enlarge the image....
Where is Bladerunner when we need him.....
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'No one saw Oswald at all' huh
Don't you mean no theatre patrons saw Oswald at all?
Sigh...
We?re talking about people who were there when the president was shot, Bill, not people who happened to be in a theater the same day.
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Using Dishonest John's form of mislogic, no one saw John Wilkes Booth shoot Lincoln. They heard a bang, looked in that direction, and saw him holding a smoking object made of "wood" pointing at Lincoln's head. You can't make that kind of nonsense up. Jackson pointed out the "rifle" and another person saw it. A search found bullet casings by that window. John doesn't even believe his own nonsense. It's Alice-in-Wonderland defense attorney bull. Just playing the lazy contrarian again.
Well no one saw Booth pull the trigger so it didn't happen.
I've got it! Oswald was measuring the window for curtains with Something Narrow Yardsticks Inc.
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feel free to suggest what else the 'something narrow' could have been.
Michael Paine said he thought it was camping equipment and he actually held the blanket and moved it around several times?.
Are you saying he was wrong?
My ask was for suggestions for what the 'something narrow' could have been
And all-of-a-sudden that suddenly gets me accused of calling Mr. Paine a liar.
Talk about jumping to conclusions.
Paine changed his mind or at least started to doubt it was camping gear, IIRC
He also estimated your tag-team buddy's pipe to be 37"
Pretty close to a broken down 38.4" Carcano.
Seems you've just shot yourself in the foot
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Euins is the one who called it "pipe thing". Brennan claimed to see all kinds of details.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brennan-view.jpg)
In this case, a 'pipe' with a stock and trigger housing in the window according to Euins.
You might be surprised what details can be seen in real life as opposed to a 72pt image on a web site
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Sure it can if you are like some here trying to raise false dobut. They claim no one saw Oswald pull the trigger. Therefore it creates doubt he was the assassin. Using that same mislogic, no one saw Booth pull the trigger. What did they see and hear? A gunshot at the moment of the assassination. They look in that direction and see a person holding a gun or as one nut claims something made of "wood" pointed a Lincoln. According to CTer logic, no inference can be drawn about what happened. Maybe, for example, Lincoln committed suicide and Booth had the misfortune to pick up the gun. He realized it looked bad and panicked. An innocent man framed.
Brennan saw Oswald holding a rifle in the same manner as witnesses saw Booth but dishonest CTers argue that doesn't mean Oswald shot JFK. It's complete nonsense. A defense attorney tactic in a desperate attempt to raise false doubt. The only difference between Booth's flight and Oswald's is that Booth had a horse. They both were making tracks though. If you think Oswald went shoe shopping for his daughter right after the president had been assassinated in front of his building and all chaos was breaking loose and a police officer had pulled a gun on him, then you can't be taken seriously. And what kind of shoe shopping did he do without entering the store? LOL. Ridiculous. And then he sneaks into the TT without a buying a ticket. You don't find any of that behavior suspicious. Just Mr. Magoo out for an afternoon stroll while chaos is all around him.
Oswald had a premonition that tennis was going to be big$$ and decided to buy Junie tennis shoes... Brewer did say the funny-looking guy was looking at tennis shoes after all. Well if you can call a thousand-yard-stare (so to speak) 'looking'
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Can you stop action?....and enlarge the image....
I can..not for you though
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Brennan said the gunman, after the final shot, stepped away from the window with the rifle
Excellent point Mr Crapman.... Now please explain to the folks HOW a gunman could step away from the window with the barricade boxes stacked behind him? ???
So not only would the barricade have squeezed a man STANDING behind that window and prevented him from aiming a rifle down onto Elm street, that barricade would also have prevented him from stepping back away from that window. Thank you for presenting the proof that the gunman was NOT behind that SE corner window....
Brennan had no idea* that the windows were close to the floor.
He would be kneeling at a window that low, while leaning forward into a firing position. He wouldn't have to step back when drawing back out of the forward lean, still kneeling.
*He thought the 2 amigos were standing as well. They weren't.
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I can..not for you though
I 've known for a long time that you're not interested in the truth.... You're simply a troll....So why would you want to present something that refutes the official fairy tale...
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Brennan had no idea* that the windows were close to the floor.
He would be kneeling at a window that low, while leaning forward into a firing position. He wouldn't have to step back when drawing back out of the forward lean, still kneeling.
*He thought the 2 amigos were standing as well. They weren't.
You're spewing old Bull S.... Mr Crapman..... Brennan said that he could see the man ( who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing) FROM HIS BELT UP.
IOW....Brennan saw the entire upper portion of the mans body.....so only a loon would believe the man was kneeling.
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You're spewing old Bull S.... Mr Crapman..... Brennan said that he could see the man ( who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing) FROM HIS BELT UP.
IOW....Brennan saw the entire upper portion of the mans body.....so only a loon would believe the man was kneeling.
Remember when you used to bank on Brennan's claims of only seeing the man from the waist up yet you had him describing his pants and had him standing and aiming through a closed window. He he, that was cool.
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Remember when you used to bank on Brennan's claims of only seeing the man from the waist up yet you had him describing his pants and had him standing and aiming through a closed window. He he, that was cool.
Pssst.....Brennan saw the entire upper portion of the man....And since I know that the floor was only about 16 / 18 inches below the window then logically as the man turned around ( which he could NOT have done in the tight space between the wall and the boxes behind the SE corner window) Brennan saw the man's butt...or an area below the belt. Thus he saw that the man was wearing trousers that "were a shade lighter" than the khaki shirt .
And for your info Mr (s)low Gun.... I've never ever claimed that the man was aiming THROUGH the glass window.....As a matter of FACT i've always tried to get others to understand that Brennan was NOT describing the SE corner window when he gave the sworn affidavit about an hour after the murder. And one of the major points that refute the silly idea that Brennan was describing the SE corner window is the fact that he DESCRIBED the man as STANDING and AIMING A HIGH POWERED RIFLE OUT OF A WINDOW....and he would have needed to poke the rifle through the glass pane to do that.
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Pssst.....Brennan saw the entire upper portion of the man....And since I know that the floor was only about 16 / 18 inches below the window then logically as the man turned around ( which he could NOT have done in the tight space between the wall and the boxes behind the SE corner window) Brennan saw the man's butt...or an area below the belt. Thus he saw that the man was wearing trousers that "were a shade lighter" than the khaki shirt .
And for your info Mr (s)low Gun.... I've never ever claimed that the man was aiming THROUGH the glass window.....As a matter of FACT i've always tried to get others to understand that Brennan was NOT describing the SE corner window when he gave the sworn affidavit about an hour after the murder. And one of the major points that refute the silly idea that Brennan was describing the SE corner window is the fact that he DESCRIBED the man as STANDING and AIMING A HIGH POWERED RIFLE OUT OF A WINDOW....and he would have needed to poke the rifle through the glass pane to do that.
I commend you on using the argument that was used against you to prove that you're nothing more than a fabricating bore. Your ongoing struggle with maturity once again rears it's head with the use of a person's name in your self perceived clever retort. However, you might fool the rare newcomer that shows up here from time to time but those of us that have caught your cyclical facts of fiction know the real you.
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Brennan was a dodgy guy, and blind as a bat , he working as a plumber in the train yards behind the Plaza, for the protestant Wallace clan, and I would not be surprised to find out he was a KKK member, or somehow connected to the radical right, and Mr Mac Wallace.
He could not i.d Oswald in the lineup and went home, he then seen him on T.V the F.B.I told him Lee was a Commie and he then made a positive id after Ruby killed him.
The paraffin test proved Howard to be a lier
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I 've known for a long time that you're not interested in the truth.... You're simply a troll....So why would you want to present something that refutes the official fairy tale...
Take a poll here and let's see who is deemed to be more interested in fact.
In regards the gif that you bobbleheads, for some strange reason, are falling all over yourselves in a back-slapping confirmation-bias frenzy, there is not one person in that scene who can, rationally, be mistaken for Oswald.
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Take a poll here and let's see who is deemed to be more interested in fact.
In regards the gif that you bobbleheads, for some strange reason, are falling all over yourselves in a back-slapping confirmation-bias frenzy, there is not one person in that scene who can, rationally, be mistaken for Oswald.
Nah...Let's not take a poll .... Let's stick to the subject .... The man who was NOT Lee Oswald who was dressed in light colored Khaki clothing who Howard Brennan saw aiming a HIGH POWERED rifle from a TSBD window was NOT behind the SE corner window....
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I can..not for you though
Enlarge it for him now I said 8)
Get it enlarged now Chapman
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Brennan was a dodgy guy, and blind as a bat , he working as a plumber in the train yards behind the Plaza, for the protestant Wallace clan, and I would not be surprised to find out he was a KKK member, or somehow connected to the radical right, and Mr Mac Wallace.
He could not i.d Oswald in the lineup and went home, he then seen him on T.V the F.B.I told him Lee was a Commie and he then made a positive id after Ruby killed him.
The paraffin test proved Howard to be a lier
The paraffin test proved Howard to be a lier
Wow!!.....You are very confused..... I can't follow your "reasoning"(?) ......
Brennan had 20 /20 vision at the time....And you're right, Brennan KNEW that Lee Oswald was NOT the man that he had seen STANDING and AIMING A HIGH POWERED rifle ( aka hunting rifle) out of a TSBD window. The paraffin test showed that Lee hadn't fired a gun that day....and that's supported by Howard Brennan's statement.... Brennan said that he could NOT identify Lee Oswald as the man with the hunting rifle...
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The paraffin test proved Howard to be a lier
Wow!!.....You are very confused..... I can't follow your "reasoning"(?) ......
Brennan had 20 /20 vision at the time....And you're right, Brennan KNEW that Lee Oswald was NOT the man that he had seen STANDING and AIMING A HIGH POWERED rifle ( aka hunting rifle) out of a TSBD window. The paraffin test showed that Lee hadn't fired a gun that day....and that's supported by Howard Brennan's statement.... Brennan said that he could NOT identify Lee Oswald as the man with the hunting rifle...
Brennan wore glasses on the day and even went blind not long after, how do you know he had 20/20 vision? d show me the eye test results and he did identify Oswald as the man in the window with the rifle, and the paraffin test showed Lee did not fire a gun then it did prove Howard Brennan to be wrong.
Brennan identified Oswald in a police lineup as the person who most closely resembled the man in the window, but Brennan said he was unable to make a positive identification.
A few hours prior to seeing the line-up, Brennan had observed a picture of Oswald on television. Brennan attributed this to part of the reason he felt he could not make a positive identification, he did not want the image to have impacted his decision.
On December 17, 1963, he told the FBI that he was sure that Oswald was the rifleman he had seen in the window.
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No fair lineup would ask you to pick the person who most resembles who you saw.
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No fair lineup would ask you to pick the person who most resembles who you saw.
Yes that's right....And according to Brennan he told the police before they took him to the police station that he'd seen Lee Oswald on TV and he did not look like the man that he'd seen aiming a the hunting rifle out of a TSBD window..... But they took him to view a line up..... and he told them the man that he'd seen WAS NOT in that line up.... The police persisted and would not accept his statement and asked him how he could be sure that number ? was not the man that he'd seen. And to get them off his back he said that the number? was the man who most closely RESEMBLED the man with the gun....But he was dressed differently than the man that he saw... We Know how Lee Oswald was dressed.....with a dark colored sport shirt and dark trousers wheras Brennan said the man that he saw was dressed in light colored khaki clothing but definitely not a suit.
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Yes that's right....And according to Brennan he told the police before they took him to the police station that he'd seen Lee Oswald on TV and he did not look like the man that he'd seen aiming a the hunting rifle out of a TSBD window..... But they took him to view a line up..... and he told them the man that he'd seen WAS NOT in that line up.... The police persisted and would not accept his statement and asked him how he could be sure that number ? was not the man that he'd seen. And to get them off his back he said that the number? was the man who most closely RESEMBLED the man with the gun....But he was dressed differently than the man that he saw... We Know how Lee Oswald was dressed.....with a dark colored sport shirt and dark trousers wheras Brennan said the man that he saw was dressed in light colored khaki clothing but definitely not a suit.
When Brennan told the cops that the man that he'd seen was dressed in light colored Khaki clothing, they told him that their patsy had changed his clothes before going to the theater.... But they omitted the fact that their arch villain Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald BOOOOOO! Hissss! didn't even possess any light colored khaki clothing.
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Enlarge it for him now I said 8)
Get it enlarged now Chapman
Come on hurry up William