JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 09:00:09 AM
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... And so long after the assassination, too! (sarcasm alert)
See the clips posted by Robin Unger at the beginning of the thread, and the enlarged, cropped GIF posted by Duncan Macrae a few posts after that, and the really neat-o GIF posted by Royell Storing near the bottom of page 1, all from Tina Towner's 11/22/63 film in the "Tina Towner film" thread, this forum!
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS I guess I was wrong about Jacob's, Holt's and light-blue headscarf-wearing Simmons' being "captured" by Darnell as they were transitioning from the grassy slope to the Elm Street sidewalk in that 2-second clip of his -- he filmed them stepping down from the pergola's concrete patio onto the grassy slope!
My bad. (sarcasm)
OMG, will Iacoletti ever let me "live it down"? (more sarcasm)
PPS A special "shout out" to James Hackerott for pointing this precious thread out to me, and for his cogent observations in it, as well!
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All of this creative storytelling, solely based on this little bit of blur.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)
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All of this creative storytelling, solely based on this little bit of blur.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)
Iacoletti,
Do you think that's, from right to left, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, and Reed-Jacob, taking in the sights up there several minutes after the assassination?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Do you think that's, from right to left, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, and Reed-Jacob, taking in the sights up there several minutes after the assassination?
I don't pretend to know things or make up stories based on a little bit of blur. Sorry. How do you know Darnell is there taking his footage at that moment? Just because you want to believe it?
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I don't pretend to know things or make up stories based on a little bit of blur. Sorry. How do you know Darnell is there taking his footage at that moment? Just because you want to believe it?
Iacoletti,
Regarding the allegation that that's Darnell running towards your and Karen Westbrook's Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, and Carol Reed (or Stella Mae Jacob?) after he'd finished filming in the parking lot, why don't you read that whole first page, again?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Can you make out Westbrook's uhh ... Westbrook's light-blue headscarf in that "little bit of blur" you posted?
How about uhh ... Reed's (or Jacobs??) black, poofed-up hair and her white skirt and brown coat?
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Iacoletti,
Regarding the allegation that that's Darnell running towards your and Karen Westbrook's Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, and Carol Reed (or Stella Mae Jacob?) after he'd finished filming in the parking lot, why don't you read that whole first page, again?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Can you make out Westbrook's uhh ... Westbrook's light-blue headscarf in that "little bit of blur" you posted?
How about uhh ... Reed's (or Jacobs??) light-colored skirt and brown coat?
Calvery's blond I mean dark red hair?
edited and bumped
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PS Can you make out Westbrook's uhh ... Westbrook's light-blue headscarf in that "little bit of blur" you posted?
I have no reason to think that's Westbrook OR Simmons (or somebody else). Not enough information.
You guys see a blurry image and make up all kinds of details about it that you don't actually know. What else is new? Not only can you not prove the 3 Darnell ladies are the 3 people next to the sign in Zapruder, you can't prove that the Towner blur is either one! Not without knowing when and where Darnell was filming. No doubt you're next going to "see" Darnell's distinct face and clothing stripes too. And determine his exact height.
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I have no reason to think that's Westbrook OR Simmons (or somebody else). Not enough information.
You guys see a blurry image and make up all kinds of details about it that you don't actually know. What else is new? Not only can you not prove the 3 Darnell ladies are the 3 people next to the sign in Zapruder, you can't prove that the Towner blur is either one! Not without knowing when and where Darnell was filming. No doubt you're next going to "see" Darnell's distinct face and clothing stripes too. And determine his exact height.
You really are a piece of work, aren't you, John.
Too many of those Hatch jalapenos while you were "growing up"?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS You figured out yet that the Wiegman film started several seconds before the first shot, and ended well after the last one, and that it does in fact show Truly and Campbell and Reid (and some of her colleagues) on the sidewalk (or in the street) quite near the front steps during the assassiation?
LOL
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You really are a piece of work, aren't you, John.
Too many of those Hatch jalepenos while you were "growing up"?
Is that another one of your baseless assumptions?
P.S. There's no such thing as a "Hatch jalape?o".
PS You figured out yet that the Wiegman film started several seconds before the first shot, and ended well after the last one, and that it does in fact show Truly and Campbell and Reid (and some of her colleagues) on the sidewalk (or in the street) quite near the front steps during the assassiation?
No, I haven't figured that out, but feel free to demonstrate that it's true.
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Is that another one of your baseless assumptions?
P.S. There's no such thing as a "Hatch jalape?o".
No, I haven't figured that out, but feel free to demonstrate that it's true.
Habanero (with the proper diacritic), then?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS. No need to, John. Just ask your favorite photo-and-film analyst, Linda Giovanna Zambanini, and while you're at it tell her to remove that misinformation from Gloria Calvery's Find-A-Grave page.
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Habanero (with the proper diacritic), then?
Strike 2. But this is another good example of how you pursue knowledge.
PS. No need to, John. Just ask your favorite photo and film analyst, Linda Giovanna Zambanini.
She's not here. Why don't you support your own claims? Unlike you, Linda actually tracks down photos instead of just making assumptions based on ethnicities. Or blue blurs.
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Dear Brian,
Yes, it's sad that John simply can't see the light-blue headscarf on the gal up there (on the Pergola Patio in Towner's film), nor that there are two women accompanying her, one of whom has blond-ish hair, and the other of whom not only has very dark hair but is wearing a brown coat and a "white" skirt, just like Westbrook's "uhh ... probably Carol Reed".
We've seen your standards for determining when things are "just like". It involves squinting really hard and pretending to see things. Like a "striped skirt" in Wiegman. Westbrook didn't look at either Darnell or Towner in her interview, she looked at Zapruder. She knew where she was standing. That trumps your squint-and-assume methodology.
I figure his poor eyesight is due to practicing too much Ritualistic Onanism over the years and/or eatin' too many of them Hatch, New Mexico, habanero chiles, Voodo Chile that he is.
I figure that your poor logic skills come from making too many unfounded assumptions about everything.
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You dismissed yourself from credibility after about your first 20 fabrications.
How does that "win" your case? Are you suggesting that Stemmons scarf lady was the only person in Dealey Plaza wearing blue? You don't know when the Towner footage was taken, or when the Darnell footage was taken or even where the Darnell ladies were standing when he took it.
That's conjecture based on your interpretation of a blurry image.
That's conjecture based on your assumption that wearing blue is somehow unique.
Even if they are, that doesn't make the Stemmons sign people the same people.
John "Intellectually Dishonest" Iacoletti wrote:
Are you suggesting that Stemmons [sign] scarf lady was the only person in Dealy Plaza wearing blue?"
...
My reply:
If you were intellectually honest, Iacoletti, you would have said, "Do you think Stemmons scarf lady was the only woman in Dealy Plaza who was wearing a light-blue ... headscarf (and was accompanied by a very dark-haired woman who was wearing a brown coat and a "white" skirt, and another woman who had blondish hair, and, and, and...)?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS How's your poll coming along, btw?
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If you were intellectually honest, Iacoletti, you would have said, "Do you think Stemmons scarf lady was the only woman in Dealy Plaza who was wearing a light-blue ... headscarf (and was accompanied by a very dark-haired woman who was wearing a brown coat and a "white" skirt, a
and another woman who had blondish hair, and, and, and...)?"
What, do you think that if people watch the motorcade together, that they were somehow epoxied together for the rest of the afternoon? Brown coat, light skirt, "blondish" hair (if that's even what they are) are all even less distinctive than blue scarf. This is like saying several witnesses said "light-colored jacket", therefore Oswald.
PS How's your poll coming along, btw?
Well, with all that extra time you save by not posting the photos that you are talking about, maybe you could go look.
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Iacoletti
It's not just those individual facts, parsed and desperately "dismissed" by you, one-by-one, on a "putting out many wildfires" basis.
It's the undeniable matrix, the convergence of said (interconnected) facts that overwhelms you, Cypher.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Iacoletti
It's not just those individual facts, parsed and desperately "dismissed" by you, one-by-one, on a "putting out many wildfires" basis.
It's the undeniable matrix, the convergence of said facts that overwhelms you, Cipher.
That exactly the same argument that lone-nutters try to use to persuade you to accept their Oswald-did-it myth.
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That exactly the same argument that lone-nutters try to use to persuade you to accept their Oswald-did-it myth.
Iaconetti,
Do you agree that the three women "captured" in the Towner film up on the Pergola Patio several minutes after the assassination were the same three women who were filmed by Darnell as one of them -- the one wearing the light-colored-headscarf in the b&w film --- was stepping down to something on a lower level?
Or do you think there were two three-woman groups like that (with one woman wearing a light-colored headscarf) roaming around Dealey Plaza that day?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Iacoletti
It's not just those individual facts, parsed and desperately "dismissed" by you, one-by-one, on a "putting out many wildfires" basis.
It's the undeniable matrix, the convergence of said (interconnected) facts that overwhelms you, Cypher.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
John would reverse this and never show any given two blobs of metal at the same time.
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John would reverse this and never show any given two blobs of metal at the same time.
Very well put, agent Smith.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Very well put, agent Smith.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
On a board game on the assassination, John would steal the toy cop cars from the outside of Hardy's Store and claim it was just another day; no need for anybody to look scared.
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John would reverse this and never show any given two blobs of metal at the same time.
As always, thanks for your valuable input.
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Amazing he doesn't know the timing of the Wiegman film and therefore doesn't realize that Truly, Campbell and Reid were "captured" in it, standing near the steps when the shots started ringing out.
Feel free to point out Truly, Campbell and Reid in the Wiegman film.
PS I wonder if he even realizes that Hugh Betzner and Abraham Zapruder were almost directly in each other's camera's line of sight when Betzner-3 and Z-186 were simultaneously taken, that the group comprised of Jacob, Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons were in front of and just a little to the left of Zapruder in Betzner-3 and, conversely, in front of and just a little off to the right of Hugh Betzner in Z-186, thereby proving that Westbrook's "Me, Gloria Calvery, and Possibly Carol Reed" in Zapruder were, in reality, the following all-pretty-much-the-same-height ladies: light-blue headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons, light-haired Gloria Holt, and dark-complexioned, self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob?
This is such BS. You're claiming to be able to positively identify Simmons, Holt, and Jacob in this?
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-sign-people.png)
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Feel free to point out Truly, Campbell and Reid in the Wiegman film.
This is such BS. You're claiming to be able to positively identify Simmons, Holt, and Jacob in this?
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-sign-people.png)
Iacoletti,
Self-described "American Indian," dark-complected Stella Mae Jacob is immediate off-stage-right in the cropped photo you posted, but I believe any truly open-minded person can see that Gloria Holt, next to "her," has light-colored hair.
Can't you?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Self-described "American Indian," dark-complected Stella Mae Jacob is immediate off-stage-right in the cropped photo you posted, but I believe any truly open-minded person can see that Gloria Holt, next to "her," has light-colored hair.
LOL. You see what you want to see.
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LOL. You see what you want to see.
Iacoletti,
You were making a big stink about the apparent difference in height between, I guess, Westbrook's and your "Karen Westbrook" and her two companions in said black and white clip (LOL "Gloria Cavery" and "Possibly Carol Reed"/Stella "Runaway" Mae Jacob until, that is, I showed you a few days ago that the light-colored-headscarf-wearing gal only seemed a lot taller than the crying, light-haired girl next to her and the dark-complected gal next to her only because she hadn't quite yet stepped down to a lower level (on the pergola patio step, or the grass, or whatever).
Bottom line: those three young women in that short Darnell clip were about the same height, after all, as can be seen by looking at the same three gals in Betzner-3 and the Zapruder film.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Bottom line: those three young women in that short Darnell clip were about the same height, after all, as can be seen by looking at the same three gals in Betzner-3 and the Zapruder film.
That doesn't tell you where they are standing on Elm street. As we see in the Christmas photos, Calvery and Westbrook were about the same height too (Westbrook slightly taller). And nobody knows how tall Jacob or Holt were either.
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John, I'm trying to figure out your take of the three women in DP. It appears that the Z film and the Betzner film show the same three women (I've given up trying to keep track of their names).
I agree. Zapruder and Betzner (and Bronson) do appear to show the same women. The question at hand though is whether it's definitive that the Darnell clip taken much later at a different location shows the same 3 women, or whether it's just a guess based on a lot of handwaving. Because in Zapruder, Betzner, Willis, and Bronson you cannot see any facial details.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/darnell-3-women.png)
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Iacoletti,
You were making a big stink about the apparent difference in height between, I guess, Westbrook's and your "Karen Westbrook" and her two companions in the very short black-and-white Darnell clip (LOL ... gasp! ... "Gloria Cavery?" and "Possibly Carol Reed?"/Stella "Runaway" Mae Jacob?) until, that is, I showed you a few days ago that the light-colored-headscarf-wearing gal only seemed a lot taller than the crying, light-haired girl next to her (and the dark-complected gal next to her), because she hadn't quite yet stepped down to a lower level (on the pergola patio step, or the grass, or whatever).
Bottom line: those three young women in that short Darnell clip were about the same height, after all, as can be seen not only in at the very end of the Darnell clip, by looking at the same three gals in Betzner-3 and the Zapruder film, as well.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
edited and bumped
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You were making a big stink about the apparent difference in height between, I guess, Westbrook's and your "Karen Westbrook" and her two companions in said black and white clip
Yes, and I agreed with you. All it takes is evidence!
(though neither Westbrook or I ever said Westbrook was in Darnell -- you're still assuming the Zapruder sign ladies must be the same as the Darnell ladies).
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Yes, and I agreed with you. All it takes is evidence!
(though neither Westbrook or I ever said Westbrook was in Darnell -- you're still assuming the Zapruder sign ladies must be the same as the Darnell ladies).
John,
So, pray tell -- why don't you believe that the three "Stemmons sign" gals in Zapruder are identical to the three young women about whom we've been talking in Darnell?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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As always, thanks for your valuable input.
The symbolism is abundantly clear
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The difference is that nobody else (even Graves) is stupid enough to call it ?conclusive proof? or ?exact match?.
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PS Most-recent "poll" results: 5 to 2.
It?s 3 for, 6 against on Denis? Facebook group.
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You?re confused about the distinction between subjective opinion and conclusive proof.
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Some people will never be satisfied no matter what you say or do. I?m satisfied that the ladies are the ones I think they are. There are more to accomplish in the research field. I?m moving on.