JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: John Iacoletti on March 07, 2019, 08:58:46 PM

Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 07, 2019, 08:58:46 PM
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/3-women-comparison.png)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 08, 2019, 04:51:57 AM
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(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/3-women-comparison.png)

Dear John,

Thanks for posting the Zapruder frame, because in it you can see the subtle, dark horizontal stripes in Gloria "Real Deal" Calvery's greenish-colored skirt, which stripes or bars can also be discerned in the "sliver" of her skirt that's visible in frames from Couch-Darnell, if you know where to look for it (the "sliver" of skirt, that is) and enlarge a good quality copy of the frame properly.

(Calvery's standing to the immediate right of the gal with the orange-ish headscarf.)

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  As regards the black-and-white Darnell frame, above, the 3-second clip it came from can be watched at the very end of the video that Dennis Morissette posted on another thread.

Here it is:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1762.msg46539.html#new
After clicking on the "link," scroll up to find the video.

On a different issue and getting back to the Zapruder frame, above: If you compare the color the skin on the man's neck with that of the woman with the "poofed-up" black hair on the right, I think it's fair to say she has pretty dark skin.  (This is easier to see in ZFrame-60, in which that woman has turned her head to the right to talk with her comrades.)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on March 08, 2019, 12:57:30 PM
I've been wrong before on ID-ing people in this damn case, but I'm going to say that the 3 girls in the Z frame and then seen in the BW still are the same people. If you look at the hair in both and even clothing texture in both, it really does look the like the same people.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 09, 2019, 12:55:01 AM
No!

No!

No!

Graves has absolutely NO evidence that could possibly substantiate his fevered allegation!
 
He must have a serious case of the DTs, or be dosing on LSD, or something!

Or maybe he's off his "meds," AGAIN !

Since Karen Westbrook has positively identified two of the women she was with (big, tall and very dark-red-haired Gloria Calvery and ... uh ... herself) in the Zapruder film (albeit from behind and 54 years after-the-fact), there were obviously TWO three-woman groups down there on Elm Street during the motorcade, and it's shear rotten-bad luck that both were not caught at the same time in any of the many photographs and films that were taken that day!

And it's shear COINCIDENCE that both of those groups had a woman who was wearing a light-colored headscarf, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that both groups had a woman with medium-dark hair in the middle, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that both groups had a woman with a dark Hispanic or American Indian-like complexion AND poofed-up black hair, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that in both of those groups the three women were about the same height, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that the clothes worn in each of those groups was mirror-imaged by the clothes the gals in the other group were wearing, at least from the chest up!

I could go on and on and on, but suffice it to say that Graves is attempting to do some SERIOUS DAMAGE to our honest and rigorous JFK assassination investigation, damage that could take DECADES to fix if he's successful!

I mean, I mean, I mean ... where's Thierry "Fake News" Speth when we really need him?

-- M.W.T.  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 09, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
Seriously now,

Just look at uncropped Betzner-3 and Zapruder Frame 187, and you'll realize the three ladies in Betzner-3
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hunt/betzner3.jpg

are standing almost directly between Betzner's camera on the south side of Elm Street, and Zapruder up on the pedestal there on the north side of Elm Street, AND CONVERSELY, that the three women in Zapruder Frame 187

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z187.jpg

are standing almost directly between Zapruder's camera and Hugh Betzner on his (south) side of Elm Street (by the reflecting pool or fountain, or whatever it's called by the near hairpin curve at Elm and Houston).  Betzner's the guy In ZFrame-187 who's dressed in light-colored clothing and holding a camera in front of his face, to the right of the person dressed in shiny blue.

So, what does that tell us?

It tells us that the three women "down there by the Stemmons sign" in black-and-white Betzner-3 are the same three women in Zapruder about whom we've been arguing for a couple of years now as to whether or not one of them might be Gloria Calvery.

(The reason I chose Zframe-187, above, is because researcher Pat Speer says that the Betzner-3 photo correlates, time-wise, with that particular Zapruder frame, and Don Roberdeau's map says Zframe-186.)

So, now that we've established that, if we're Bart Kamp or John Iacoletti, we've got to ask ourselves, "Where is that other three-woman group, darn it? You know, the one that also has a woman wearing a light-colored headscarf? I sure as heck can't find it in that panoramic Bronson-5 photo."
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=15&pos=30

LOL
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on March 09, 2019, 09:01:04 AM
This appears to be them in the other film:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2WSqZi2ZMvE/XIOAEgRdmMI/AAAAAAAAFXE/t0J5urp_SA85lJryapi3DFda5FQ711p-gCLcBGAs/s1600/3%2Bladies.jpg)

The light blue scarf on the one girl in Z matches light blue in the above.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 09, 2019, 01:21:41 PM
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This appears to be them in the other film:

The light blue scarf on the one girl in Z matches light blue in the above.

Thanks for posting that panoramic Bronson image, Michael.

EDIT: When I first viewed Bronson imague you posted on my android, I could "scroll" the image "off screen" left and right, but can't do that on my laptop.  Can you?

For purposes of correlating the above photo with the Zapruder Film and Don Roberdeau's map, etc, please note not only Umbrella Man and Dark Complected Man (and Babushka Lady on the near side), et al., down the street, but that going the other direction we can spy hat-and-suit-wearing Ernest Brandt standing directly above the end of the limo (and John Templin, to our right, next to him), and at the far right edge of the frame -- "Woman All In White".

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 09, 2019, 11:26:49 PM
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Thanks for posting the Zapruder frame, because in it you can see the subtle, dark horizontal stripes in Gloria "Real Deal" Calvery's greenish-colored skirt, which stripes or bars can also be discerned in the "sliver" of her skirt that's visible in frames from Couch-Darnell, if you know where to look for it (the "sliver" of skirt, that is) and enlarge a good quality copy of the frame properly.

Yes, I can see a pattern in the skirt of the woman in Zapruder who may or may not be Calvery.

Darnell, not so much.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 09, 2019, 11:33:11 PM
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He must have a serious case of the DTs, or be dosing on LSD, or
And it's shear COINCIDENCE that both of those groups had a woman who was wearing a light-colored headscarf, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that both groups had a woman with medium-dark hair in the middle, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that both groups had a woman with a dark Hispanic or American Indian-like complexion AND poofed-up black hair, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that in both of those groups the three women were about the same height, and it's shear COINCIDENCE that the clothes worn in each of those groups was mirror-imaged by the clothes the gals in the other group were wearing, at least from the chest up!

Tommy thinks that sarcasm is evidence, but unfortunately for Tommy, he doesn?t actually know that the three Darnell women stood in a ?three woman group? on Elm street, nor does he even know that Holt, Simmons, and Jacob stood in a ?three woman group? on Elm street. Nor does he know how tall any of them were.

Reality bites.

Quote
I could go on and on and on,

Yes, and I?m sure you will.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 10, 2019, 12:19:04 AM
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Yes, I can see a pattern in the skirt of the woman in Zapruder who may or may not be Calvery.

Darnell, not so much.

Iacoletti,

What?

Why aren't you unequivocally stating that the big, tall, black-headscarf-wearing woman in Zapruder -- wearing the greenish skirt with the broad (but subtle), alternating, dark-colored and light-colored horizontal stripes -- can't POSSIBLY be big, tall, dark-red-haired Gloria Calvery, because because because, you know ... gasp ... Karen Westbrook DONE IDENTIFIED herself as the light-blue headscarf-wearing gal, and the average-sized, strawberry-blonde gal next to "her" as big, tall, dark-red-haired Gloria Calvery on the smilin' and noddin' Stephen Fagin show (albeit from behind and 54 years after-the-fact)?

What's gotten into you, John?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 10, 2019, 04:09:50 AM
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Why aren't you unequivocally stating that the big, tall, black-headscarf-wearing woman in Zapruder -- wearing the greenish skirt with the broad (but subtle), alternating, dark-colored and light-colored horizontal stripes -- can't POSSIBLY be big, tall, dark-red-haired Gloria Calvery, because because because, you know ... gasp ... Karen Westbrook DONE IDENTIFIED herself as the light-blue headscarf-wearing gal, and the average-sized, strawberry-blonde gal next to "her" as big, tall, dark-red-haired Gloria Calvery on the smilin' and noddin' Stephen Fagin show (albeit from behind and 54 years after-the-fact)?

Because it's just a claim -- not proof.  It's just more credible than your claim without proof at the moment, because she was there and you weren't.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 10, 2019, 04:15:30 AM
Note the relative heights of these people:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/darnell-3-women.png)

compared to these people:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/zapruder-ladies.png)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 10, 2019, 04:57:52 AM
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Note the relative heights of these people:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/darnell-3-women.png)

compared to these people:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/zapruder-ladies.png)

Iacoletti,

If you were to watch the 2-to-3 second clip which the black-and-white Darnell frame, above, came from, you'd realize that the gal wearing the headscarf (Sharron Simmons) and the crying gal (Gloria Holt) are still on the very edge of the grassy slope, and that all three of them have just come down from even higher up on the grass, as indicated by the Cabluck photo which shows two of them, -- the dark-complected gal on the left (Stella Mae Jacob) consoling the gal in the middle (Gloria Holt).

It's at the end of this video. Note how headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons eyes the ground and then kinda bounces down to the sidewalk at the very end.


-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 10, 2019, 08:07:19 PM
Iacoletti wrote

"Yes, I can see [an alternating-black-and-white-horizontal-stripes] pattern in the [greenish-colored] skirt of the [big, tall] woman in Zapruder who may or may not be Calvery.

[In] Darnell, not so much."

.....

Iacoletti,

When you say, "Not so much" do you mean "just a little bit"?

(Because if so, then you do see those two dark horizontal stripes, don't you, and by golly we're finally in agreement on something!)

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 12, 2019, 04:50:05 PM
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It's at the end of this video. Note how headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons eyes the ground and then kinda bounces down to the sidewalk at the very end.

I think you're probably right about that.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/darnell-3-women-2.png)

Do you have an actual known photo of Sharon Simmons?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 12, 2019, 04:50:40 PM
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When you say, "Not so much" do you mean "just a little bit"?

No, I mean not at all.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 12, 2019, 04:57:09 PM
Ok, I found her high school yearbook.  1962 Adamson High.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sharon-simmons-adamson-high-1962.png)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 12, 2019, 05:12:33 PM
Here's Gloria Holt (Samuell High, 1963)

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/gloria-holt-samuell-high-1963.jpg)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 12, 2019, 07:19:13 PM
to Thomas Graves' reply #12

To see the whereabouts of the three women when captured by Darnell please review the thread  ?Tina Tower film? by Robin Unger in this board about 14 threads below.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html)
Tina's film shows Jacob, Holt and Simmons walking eastward on the concrete terrace near or on the steps, not sidewalk, in front of the pergola. From stage left Jimmy Darnell races to the girls just before he captures the familiar black and white film of their approaching distraught faces. Just for FYI.


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 01:53:17 AM
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to Thomas Graves' reply #12

To see the whereabouts of the three women when captured by Darnell please review the thread  ?Tina Tower film? by Robin Unger in this board about 14 threads below.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html)
Tina's film shows Jacob, Holt and Simmons walking eastward on the concrete terrace near or on the steps, not sidewalk, in front of the pergola. From stage left Jimmy Darnell races to the girls just before he captures the familiar black and white film of their approaching distraught faces. Just for FYI.

Thanks James,

That makes sense.

At least I was apparently right about Simmons' (and Holt's, to a lesser extent) stepping down to a lower level at the very end of that short clip, at which point we can see that those three women really were about the same height!

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 13, 2019, 05:16:49 AM
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we can see that those three women really were about the same height!

Which can also be seen in Betzner 3...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 06:48:40 AM
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Which can also be seen in Betzner 3...

Of course.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 18, 2019, 10:10:13 PM

A poll is the lowest form of analysis...

A poll is only worth the credible evidence logic that is attached to it...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 19, 2019, 04:59:07 PM
Tommy asked for a poll so he got a Poll:
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Barry Pollard on March 22, 2019, 03:37:24 PM
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Ok, I found her high school yearbook.  1962 Adamson High.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sharon-simmons-adamson-high-1962.png)

Looks v good as does Holt, at least the face, if not the hairstyle.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 22, 2019, 04:01:19 PM
Only a person completely lacking in evidence analysis skill would even ask in the first place...Those are the same 3 ladies in Zapruder as in Darnell...It proves Westbrook is wrong in her 6th Floor Museum interview and Calvery is Tall Woman...

The one who pretends to be fighting for correct evidence is the same one who is holding up recognition of that same correct evidence...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2019, 03:02:56 PM
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Only a person completely lacking in evidence analysis skill would even ask in the first place...Those are the same 3 ladies in Zapruder as in Darnell...It proves Westbrook is wrong in her 6th Floor Museum interview and Calvery is Tall Woman...

The one who pretends to be fighting for correct evidence is the same one who is holding up recognition of that same correct evidence...

Doyle thinks that his wild guesses constitute ?evidence analysis skill? and ?proof?.

Note that the poll doesn?t ask, do you believe these are the same people. The poll asks, have Doyle and Graves proven it. Vehemently claiming something isn?t proof.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 23, 2019, 04:59:47 PM
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Ok, I found her high school yearbook.  1962 Adamson High.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sharon-simmons-adamson-high-1962.png)

Dear John,

Imho, she strongly resembles the gal wearing the light-colored headscarf in the Darnell clip.

In a high school photograph taken about one year before the assassination, the strong facial and hair-color resemblance of then-student Gloria Jeanne Holt to the crying gal in the Darnell clip convinced several of the more open-minded members of the world-famous Ejaculation Forum (de facto-controlled by James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio and Bart "The Fart" Kamp) that Holt and "Crying Gal" were one and the same person, especially since Holt said in her 1964 FBI statement that she'd watched the motorcade with (self-described American Indian) Stella Mae Jacob, who, with her poofed-up black hair, her dark complexion, and her "American Indian Nose," is easy to identify as the gal on the left in that clip.

The three women in said Darnell clip (as well as in b&w Betzner-3, the Tina T. color clip, the Bronson-5 color photo, and in the Zapruder film) are, therefore, Jacob, Holt, and Simmons, not ...

"uhh...PROBABLY Carol Reed, VERY RED-HAIRED Gloria Calvert (sic), and ME, KAREN WESTBROOK!!!, as is very obvious to ME when I view very red-haired Gloria Calvert (sic), and yes!, MYSELF!!! in the Zapruder Film, ... albeit hidden in a raincoat and a headscarf ...

...and...uhh...from behind and 54 years after the fact."


-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 23, 2019, 10:38:01 PM
Herr Crampffenfussen isn't honest enough to admit he was wrong...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 24, 2019, 12:35:48 AM
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Herr Crampffenfussen isn't honest enough to admit he was wrong...


Brian,

Iacoletti does, but unfortunately it's piecemeal to the extreme, subtle, and vaguely noncommittal-like.

Done at absolute last-resort.

--  Mudd Wrassler  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 24, 2019, 04:47:09 AM
That makes him slightly better than the other forum...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 24, 2019, 04:53:36 AM
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That makes him slightly better than the other forum...

Brian,

I fear, like Hannibal Lecter, John is in a special category all by himself.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 25, 2019, 06:49:02 AM
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The three women in said Darnell clip (as well as in b&w Betzner-3, the Tina T. color clip, the Bronson-5 color photo, and in the Zapruder film) are, therefore, Jacob, Holt, and Simmons, not ...

This is where you keep going off the rails. You could identify who the Darnell women are with 100% certainty and that still does tell you who the people who appear to be next to the sign in Zapruder are.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 25, 2019, 08:40:12 AM
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This is where you keep going off the rails. You could identify who the Darnell women are with 100% certainty and that still does tell you who the people who appear to be next to the sign in Zapruder are.

Only if you disregard (self-described American Indian) Stella Mae Jacob's dark complexion, poofed-up black hair, and dark coat in the Darnell clip and/or fail to note how those things directly correspond with how she looks in Zapruder (especially Z-60 or so where her head is turned and you can see her dark-colored skin), and/or if you were unable to discern in the Darnell clip that the light-haired "Crying Gal," albeit with longer hair, looks just like how one of Joseph's purported sidekicks that day -- Gloria Holt -- looked in her high school yearbook photo taken one year earlier, and/or that the gal wearing the light-colored headscarf in that two-second Darnell clip looks a lot like Joseph's and Holt's other purported 11/22/63 bud -- Sharron Simmons -- as you so kindly showed us when you recently posted Simmon's high school photo (good work, btw!), and how what those two gals are wearing in black & white Darnell directly correspond with what the two gals nearest the Stemmons sign in Zapruder are wearing, not to mention how the tone of "Crying Gal's" hair in Darnell corresponds well with the "strawberry blond" hair of the gal in the middle in Zapruder.

And the real clincher?

When you cross reference Tina T's film (in which she, luckilly for us, captured Darnell as he was getting ready to start filming Jacob, Holt, and Simmons stepping down from the pergola's patio onto the grass several minutes after the assassination) with the Zapruder film, you can see that for all practical "real world" purposes those three gals in Tina's clip must be the same three gals who are standing "next to" the Stemmons sign in Zapruder. Jacob's dark-coat and white-skirt combo, taken together with Simmons' light-blue headscarf and dark-colored raincoat, etc, are dead giveaways that those three gals in Tina's film (and, by extrapolation, in the film within the film -- Darnell) are the same three gals in all three films.

That's something that even an Inspector Clouseau could figure out, but evidently you can't, Iacoletti.

Why is that, do you suppose?

LOL

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 25, 2019, 08:45:06 PM
Please describe the methodology by which you?re ?matching? colors from a color film to shades in a black and white film.

Please explain how ?crying woman? in Darnell looking like Holt tells you who is standing where in Zapruder.

Please tell me how you know that Darnell?s clip of his 3 women was captured at the same time and place as the small, blurry sequence captured by Towner.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 25, 2019, 10:15:11 PM
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Please describe the methodology by which you?re ?matching? colors from a color film to shades in a black and white film.

Please explain how ?crying woman? in Darnell looking like Holt tells you who is standing where in Zapruder.

Please tell me how you know that Darnell?s clip of his 3 women was captured at the same time and place as the small, blurry sequence captured by Towner.

Dear John,

Already have, but with you it's "In one ear and out the other," with a healthy dose of "You can lead a horse to water ..." thrown in.

You will never "get it," John, but open-minded, non-contrarian, non-anal students will.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 26, 2019, 03:25:55 AM

More playing dumb from Iacoletti...He's just as aware as any of us that the visible blue scarf, brown jacket, and white skirt seen on the 3 Women in Towner matches the blue scarf, brown jacket, and white skirt seen on the 3 Women in Zapruder...As usual Iacoletti is desperately seeking to switch the argument to a falsely-rendered strawman whose sole purpose is to divert the discussion away from the hard evidence he's trying to deny and in to his disingenuous diversion for the purpose of avoiding honestly answering the real question...

This is proof that the 3 Women in Towner are the same 3 Women in Zapruder...Iacoletti is playing dumb and pretending he doesn't understand this basic argument...He's also trying to pretend there's a logical violation to it even though he knows there isn't...On most discussion boards when a person can be proven to be avoiding arguments using such dubious methods accusations of trolling usually arise and the offender is moderated... 

Once you prove the 3 Women in Towner are the same 3 Women in Zapruder then you can reasonably conclude the 3 Women by the Pergola patio are the same 3 Women who moved down to the sidewalk from their position in Towner to their position in Darnell...This is proof that the 3 Woman are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob because we can see their faces close up in Darnell...We have also proven where the Calvery foursome is in Zapruder...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 26, 2019, 10:27:30 PM
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Dear John,

Already have, but with you it's "In one ear and out the other," with a healthy dose of "You can lead a horse to water ..." thrown in.

You will never "get it," John, but open-minded, non-contrarian, non-anal students will.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Your "matching" methodology amounts to "it looks the same to me!".

I can't fathom how you think that's convincing.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 26, 2019, 10:30:46 PM
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Once you prove the 3 Women in Towner are the same 3 Women in Zapruder

You haven't.

Quote
then you can reasonably conclude the 3 Women by the Pergola patio are the same 3 Women who moved down to the sidewalk from their position in Towner to their position in Darnell...

 BS:  You have no idea when or where the Darnell sequence was taken.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 26, 2019, 10:54:26 PM
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Your "matching" methodology amounts to "it looks the same to me!".

I can't fathom how you think that's convincing.

Dear Iacoletti,

Do try to think in terms of probabilities from time to time in this case, especially as regards witness identification in photographs and films.

Question: What's the chance that there were two three-woman groups in the lower part of Dealey Plaza during the motorcade, and that both groups had 1) a dark-complected gal who had poofed-up black hair and was wearing a dark brown coat/white skirt, 2) a gal with strawberry-blond hair who was wearing a dark raincoat or dress, and 3) a thin, dark-haired gal who was wearing a dark raincoat and a light-blue headscarf?

Answer: Slim and none.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 27, 2019, 08:21:28 AM
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You haven't.

 BS:  You have no idea when or where the Darnell sequence was taken.

Iacoletti,

Do you deny that details of the Pergola can be seen in the background of the Darnell frame, below, and that it and the three young ladies not only appear to be standing on very nearly the same plane, but are not very far apart (the gals from the pergola, that is)?

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1574&fullsize=1

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 27, 2019, 04:10:44 PM
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Do you deny that details of the Pergola can be seen in the background of the Darnell frame, below, and that it and the three young ladies not only appear to be standing on very nearly the same plane, but are not very far apart (the gals from the pergola, that is)?

Yes, that appears to be a portion of the pergola behind them.  I'm not sure where you get the "not very far apart" thing.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 27, 2019, 11:46:27 PM
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Yes, that appears to be a portion of the pergola behind them.  I'm not sure where you get the "not very far apart" thing.

Iacoletti,

Appears to be?  LOL  Thanks for the major concession.

(sarcasm)

Looking at news photographer James Darnell's two-second clip: 1) what focal-length lens do you think he was using on his 16mm movie camera, 2) how far away from the three ladies do you think he was standing, and 3) how far away from The Pergola structure do you think the ladies were when Darnell started filming them?  In trying to answer the above, please bear in mind that we know that all three of the ladies -- Dark-Complected Gal, Crying Gal and Blue Headscarf Gal -- were on the edge of the Pergola Patio when Darnell started filming them, due to the fact that at the end of the clip they're in the process of stepping down its (three) steps onto the grass -- especially noticeable with Headscarf Gal on the right.

Taking the probable focal length of the 16mm news camera lens, the probable aperature, the "shutter speed" of the camera (about 1/50 of a second), and the probable "speed" of the film itself into consideration, is the fact that the Pergola's structure is visible in great detail in the background an indication of how close to the three gals Darnell was standing, not to mention how far from the structure they were when Darnell was filming them? 

Stated another way -- Where do you think Darnell was standing while filming that clip?  On the sidewalk?  In the street? On the south side of Elm Street, using a telephoto lens and a tripod?

Once you realize that it was James Darnell and self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, strawberry-blond Gloria "Crying" Holt, and light-blue headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons who were "captured" on the grass and on the Pergola Patio, respectively, in the Tina Towner film at least eight minutes after the assassination, and that those young ladies are the same gals who were captured during the motorcade in the Zapruder film, Betzner-3, and in Bronson-5, you'll know that Karen Westbrook was dead wrong in 2017 when she mis-identified Simmons as herself, and Holt as Gloria Calvert (sic) ...uhh ... from behind ... and uhh ... 54 years after-the-fact.

But until then I expect you to continue to fervently knock yourself out.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
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Looking at news photographer James Darnell's two-second clip: 1) what focal-length lens do you think he was using on his 16mm movie camera, 2) how far away from the three ladies do you think he was standing, and 3) how far away from The Pergola structure do you think the ladies were when Darnell started filming them?

No idea.  If you have a point to make, then just make it.

Quote
  In trying to answer the above, please bear in mind that we know that all three of the ladies -- Dark-Complected Gal, Crying Gal and Blue Headscarf Gal -- were on the edge of the Pergola Patio when Darnell started filming them, due to the fact that at the end of the clip they're in the process of stepping down its (three) steps onto the grass -- especially noticeable with Headscarf Gal on the right.

No, we don't "know" that.  Scarf woman does appear to be stepping down from something, but that's it.

Quote
Once you realize that it was James Darnell and self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, strawberry-blond Gloria "Crying" Holt, and light-blue headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons who were "captured" on the grass and on the Pergola Patio, respectively, in the Tina Towner film at least eight minutes after the assassination, and that those young ladies are the same gals who were captured during the motorcade in the Zapruder film, Betzner-3, and in Bronson-5,

Isn't that supposed to be the thing you're trying to prove?

Quote
you'll know that Karen Westbrook was dead wrong in 2017 when she mis-identified Simmons as herself, and Holt as Gloria Calvert (sic), uhh ... from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.

So basically you're saying "if the thing I'm trying to prove is correct, then Westbrook was wrong".  That's brilliant, but it does nothing to show that you are correct.  I notice that you too are trying to identify people from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.  The only difference is that she was there and you were not.

Quote
But until then I expect you to continue to fervently knock yourself out.

I expect you to fervently continue to claim that you are correct and she is not.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 28, 2019, 04:22:40 PM
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No idea.  If you have a point to make, then just make it.

No, we don't "know" that.  Scarf woman does appear to be stepping down from something, but that's it.

Isn't that supposed to be the thing you're trying to prove?

So basically you're saying "if the thing I'm trying to prove is correct, then Westbrook was wrong".  That's brilliant, but it does nothing to show that you are correct.  I notice that you too are trying to identify people from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.  The only difference is that she was there and you were not.

I expect you to fervently continue to claim that you are correct and she is not.

Iacoletti,

Look at a good photo of the Pergola Patio and you'll realize that it has a "step" comprised of three low-profile "mini steps" running around its perimeter.

Watch the two-second Darnell clip carefully (many times if necessary) and you'll realize that all three gals negotiate at least one of those mini steps as they start transitioning to the grassy surface. In their coming down off the patio at an oblique angle to the steps, it looks as though Dark Complected Gal got a slight headstart on Crying Gal, and that CG, in turn, got a headstart on Headscarf Gal, all of which helps to explain why the latter (Light-Colored-Headscarf Gal) looks so much taller than the other two, until she, too, comes down, that is.

When one carefully watches the movements of BrownJacket/WhiteSkirt Gal in the Towner clip, one can see that she does step down before the other two have begun to do so, and that she must have been almost completely done by the time Darnell started filming the trio.

"Putting it all together" we now know why her stepping down in the Darnell Clip is much harder to detect than said action of her two slightly-lagging colleagues.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=1303.0

Regarding Westbrook, it's too bad that your "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3 (nice catch, btw!) is wearing a headscarf in Zapruder (and that Betzner-3 itself is in back and white) because Westbrook can't see how very dark-red your  "Glasses Woman" hair was.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2019, 05:27:51 PM
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Look at a good photo of the Pergola Patio and you'll realize that it has a "step" comprised of three low-profile "mini steps" running around its perimeter.

Yes, I've actually been there.  Have you?  They're not that "mini".

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/pergola-steps.png)

Quote
Watch the two-second Darnell clip carefully (many times if necessary) and you'll realize that all three gals negotiate at least one of those mini steps as they start transitioning to the grassy surface.

Sure, Tommy.  Just like if you watch the other Darnell clip "carefully" you can see stripes on black-blob-person's "skirt".

Quote
In their coming down off the patio at an oblique angle to the steps, it looks as though Dark Complected Gal got a slight headstart on Crying Gal, and that CG, in turn, got a headstart on Headscarf Gal, all of which helps to explain why the latter (Light-Colored-Headscarf Gal) looks so much taller than the other two, until she, too, comes down, that is.

You're going to have to show me these "transitions" in Towner.  I think you're imagining them.  But tell me this:  if they are coming down the steps in the Towner clip then how is Darnell (who supposedly is running across from the left in Towner) supposedly also taking footage of them from the right?

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Regarding Westbrook, it's too bad that your "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3 (nice catch, btw!)

What glasses?

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-blob.png)

Quote
is wearing a headscarf in Zapruder (and that Betzner-3 itself is in back and white) because Westbrook can't see how very dark-red your  "Glasses Woman" hair was.

I don't even know what this means.  How do you know that the Betzner blob's hair is "very dark red"
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 28, 2019, 07:23:26 PM
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Yes, I've actually been there.  Have you?  They're not that "mini".

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/pergola-steps.png)

Sure, Tommy.  Just like if you watch the other Darnell clip "carefully" you can see stripes on black-blob-person's "skirt".

You're going to have to show me these "transitions" in Towner.  I think you're imagining them.  But tell me this:  if they are coming down the steps in the Towner clip then how is Darnell (who supposedly is running across from the left in Towner) supposedly also taking footage of them from the right?

What glasses?

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-blob.png)

I don't even know what this means.  How do you know that the Betzner blob's hair is "very dark red"

Iacoletti,

OMG, you don't remember referring to the gal we were talking about (either here or on Moricet's FB page) in Betzner-3 as "Glasses Woman" because you rather disingenuously didn't want to publically
... gasp ... agree with me that she was wearing a "black" blouse/sweater and a "black" headscarf in said photo?

LOL

So, in order to keep from ... gasp ... agreeing with me on anything in this debate, you obviously zoomed in on her face, looking desperately for some kind of distinguishing characteristic by which to label her (or magically rebut my valid argument that she is ... gasp ... Gloria Calvery), ...and ... Hallelujah! ... you finally noticed something I'd already discovered (and had posted about on the EF, iirc), and now guess what -- your stubborn contrariness and pridefulness in that instance has come back to bite you in the xxx (xxxx or "bum" in British English).

In short, thanks for verifying my semi-secret discovery from a year or two ago that the tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf gal in that photo (which shows her standing next to historically documented 21 year-old John Templin) is wearing big, black-framed glasses ... OMFG,  just like Gloria Calvery always did!

LOL

You and I should "collaborate" more often, Iacoletti!

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  If this doesn't refresh your memory, and if you still can't "see" her glasses when you enlarge her face in Betzner-3, and/or you still can't "see" the two broad horizontal bands in the best clear Couch-Darnell frame you can find, then all I can say is that you either don't really want to, or you've got weak eyes, dude.

-- Mud Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  Regarding the "rise" of the three individual Pergola Patio "steps," is it, what, four or five inches?

Wowie Zowie

(sarcasm)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2019, 08:25:55 PM
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In short, thanks for verifying my semi-secret discovery from a year or two ago that the tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf gal in that photo (which shows her standing next to historically documented 21 year-old John Templin) is wearing big, black-framed glasses, ... OMFG,  just like Gloria Calvery always did!

Feel free to point out where these "big, black-framed glasses" are in the enlargement.  While you're at it, feel free to provide Templin's "historical document", whatever that means.  Is there some reason to think that Templin was standing next to Calvery?  Did they even know each other?

Quote
PS  If this doesn't refresh your memory, and if you still can't "see" her glasses when you enlarge her face in Betzner-3, and/or you still can't "see" the two broad horizontal bands in the best clear Couch-Darnell frame you can find, then all I can say is that you either don't really want to, or you've got weak eyes, dude.

Yeah, that's what you always say when people don't share your hallucinations.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 28, 2019, 09:23:17 PM
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Feel free to point out where these "big, black-framed glasses" are in the enlargement.  While you're at it, feel free to provide Templin's "historical document", whatever that means.  Is there some reason to think that Templin was standing next to Calvery?  Did they even know each other?

Yeah, that's what you always say when people don't share your hallucinations.

Iacoletti,

One of many points:

"WTF does it matter in this case whether or not they even knew each other?"

LOL

Was there a law in Texas at the time that prohibited a stranger from even standing next to another stranger and ... gasp ... maybe even talking with him or her?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2019, 09:28:48 PM
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Iacoletti,

One of many points:

"WTF does it matter in this case whether or not they even knew each other?"

LOL

Was there a law in Texas at the time that prohibited a stranger from even standing next to another stranger and ... gasp ... maybe even talking with him or her?

Not at all.  I'm trying to determine why you consider Templin at all relevant in determining the identity of tall-woman.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 28, 2019, 09:43:15 PM

Here is Iacoletti in a nut shell...Showing an image of Gloria Calvery that was pointed out to me by her son Chris as definitely being his mother and denying it in public...

Iacoletti is now dishonestly denying that when left to freely evaluate the woman's image in Betzner he volunteered that she was wearing glasses...

Gloria always wore the tear drop framed glasses you see in the Christmas photos...You can see the blurry black mass of the thicker pointed tear drop end of those dark frames in the outward corner of her eye in Betzner...

Gloria Holt, who is the middle woman in the Simmons group, did not wear glasses...Plus Iacoletti is contemptuously ignoring that we can see Calvery's big body in the Christmas photos and it is perfectly matched by Tall Woman's body shape...

 
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2019, 10:17:27 PM
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Here is Iacoletti in a nut shell...Showing an image of Gloria Calvery that was pointed out to me by her son Chris as definitely being his mother and denying it in public...

Doyle has never presented a shred of evidence that Chris Calvery (born in 1977) said that anyone was "definitely his mother".

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Iacoletti is now dishonestly denying that when left to freely evaluate the woman's image in Betzner he volunteered that she was wearing glasses...

After enlarging the image I changed my mind.  There's nothing dishonest about that.  Why can't you guys point out where the glasses are?

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-blob.png)

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Gloria always wore the tear drop framed glasses you see in the Christmas photos...You can see the blurry black mass of the thicker pointed tear drop end of those dark frames in the outward corner of her eye in Betzner...

Where?  And where is this "black mass" on the other eye?

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Gloria Holt, who is the middle woman in the Simmons group, did not wear glasses...

What "Simmons group", and so what?  So you're pretending to see glasses on the Betzner blob, and you're pretending that there are no glasses on the Betzner sign people.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/betzner-sign-people.png)

I'm not interested in what you pretend to see or not to see.

Quote
Plus Iacoletti is contemptuously ignoring that we can see Calvery's big body in the Christmas photos and it is perfectly matched by Tall Woman's body shape...

There we go with your "perfectly matched" nonsense again.  "Perfectly matched" is Doyle-speak for "looks the same to me!"
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 29, 2019, 04:02:24 AM
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Not at all.  I'm trying to determine why you consider Templin at all relevant in determining the identity of tall-woman.

Because spotting 21 year-old John Templin as he's watching the motorcade (with his older, fedora-wearing buddy, Ernest Brandt) in Zapruder and in Willis-5 helps us to spot him in Betzner-3 (where he's standing next to your "Glasses Woman") and then, by extrapolating and cross referencing the photos with the film, it's easy to see that your Betzner-3 "Glasses Woman" must be the same person as "Big Girl/Tall Girl" in Zapruder because they're not only "both" standing next to Templin, but also because they're "both" wearing the same black blouse and black headscarf combo at the same time and in the same smallish part of Elm Street.

Our gal in Betzner-3 has the same asymetrical hairstyle (i.e., asymetrical front locks or bangs or whatever they're called) as we've seen in verified photos of Gloria Calvery, and she has the same facial structure as the historical Calvery, as well, and, as you discovered for youself, she's wearing her large, black-framed "Gloria Calvery" glasses in Betzner-3.

My, what a coincidence, eh?

At some point we take note of the fact that your Betzner-3 "Glasses Woman" is standing next to three other headscarf-wearing gals in Zapruder, making a total of four consecutive headscarf-wearing gals on that small part of Elm Street during the motorcade.

This is important for two reasons: 1) cross-referencing of Calvery's and Westbrook's and Hicks' and Reed's FBI statements indicate that those four gals watched the motorcade together, and 2) one of those other headscarf-wearing gals can, a few seconds later, be spotted walking up the TSBD steps in close proximity to our "Big Girl"/"Tall Girl"/"Black Blouse and Black Headscarf-Wearing Gal"/... uhh... "Glasses Woman!"

OMG -- Do they work together in that building?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 29, 2019, 03:32:36 PM
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Doyle has never presented a shred of evidence that Chris Calvery (born in 1977) said that anyone was "definitely his mother".


Again, there is Iacoletti in a nutshell using defense lawyer tactics to deny a real thing and take the side of deception in order to damage the truth...Chris Calvery said it...It's all you need to know...But this is what Iacoletti does...He aggressively switches the subject from the evidence you showed in order to make his denial the issue instead of the evidence you pointed-out that he's evading...Iacoletti is doing this in order to avoid the fact we have images from the front of the people around Tall Woman on either side in Altgens, Willis, and Betzner...Those photos prove that the people on either side of the Tall Woman group can't be Calvery so therefore the woman whom Chris Calvery insisted was his mother and whose body type matches the Christmas party photo of Calvery is Calvery...It is time to file Iacoletti in the irrational denier category that he belongs in and start ignoring his deviant denials...Iacoletti has no intention of ever honestly discussing assassination evidence...He's just here to play unhealthy games with good researchers and screw up their findings...Iacoletti offers mocking of Calvery's large body type seen in both the Christmas photos and Zapruder as a response, in reaction to images that do show that large body type on both women...I don't think he should be allowed to do that because that is just childish mocking of proven evidence and is below the level of the type of intelligent research expected here...


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After enlarging the image I changed my mind.  There's nothing dishonest about that.  Why can't you guys point out where the glasses are?


No, you're not telling the truth...After you saw the glasses like everyone else you then saw me make the case that Holt could be seen not wearing any glasses and therefore that proved Tall Woman was Calvery...Your so-called changing of your mind was just your dishonest escape from good evidence you knew you couldn't deny...Now you're pretending you can't see the glasses...Just like you're pretending you don't see the rest of the layers of evidence that prove Tall Woman is Calvery like Woman In All White being next to her on the steps...

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What "Simmons group", and so what?  So you're pretending to see glasses on the Betzner blob, and you're pretending that there are no glasses on the Betzner sign people.


Pretending you don't understand the reference for "Simmons group" would justly gain you banning on most forums...As would the mocking trolling you include in your dishonest denials...As far as I know you are the only person on the internet who has the nerve to publicly deny that the 3 Women on the Knoll in Darnell are the same 3 Women seen next to the Stemmons sign in Zapruder...Don't play dumb Iacoletti...You know exactly what I'm referring to...The middle woman seen in Darnell is Holt and she sharply, visibly is not wearing glasses...Since no photo of Calvery every shows her not wearing glasses this is proof enough that Tall Woman is Calvery...This is good proof whether you deny it or not...You can now be safely dismissed as the Cinque-like lunatic fringe opinion you are...


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I'm not interested in what you pretend to see or not to see.


You're in denial of proven evidence and should not be allowed to harass credible researchers...Moricet banned me and kept you...Not too smart...

It is my opinion Iacoletti that you and your denial trolling are a major detriment to this website and are largely responsible for better quality researchers not posting here because they want to avoid this kind of mud pit wrestling that gums up the site with aggravating noise that jams the good research signal...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 30, 2019, 05:21:46 AM
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Because spotting 21 year-old John Templin as he's watching the motorcade (with his older, fedora-wearing buddy, Ernest Brandt) in Zapruder and in Willis-5 helps us to spot him in Betzner-3

You think you see any features at all on the person standing next to Betzner blob? That?s a good one!  You even think you know this person?s name!

Quote
Our gal in Betzner-3 has the same asymetrical hairstyle (i.e., asymetrical front locks or bangs or whatever they're called) as we've seen in verified photos of Gloria Calvery, and she has the same facial structure as the historical Calvery, as well,

How you?re claiming to see details of a hairline and face shape of a person wearing a headscarf is anyone?s guess.

Quote
and, as you discovered for youself, she's wearing her large, black-framed "Gloria Calvery" glasses in Betzner-3.

Hogwash, you can?t even point out where these ?glasses? are.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 30, 2019, 05:45:07 AM
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Again, there is Iacoletti in a nutshell using defense lawyer tactics to deny a real thing and take the side of deception in order to damage the truth...Chris Calvery said it...It's all you need to know...

Nothing you claim without evidence can be trusted. You?ve been caught lying too many times.

Quote
No, you're not telling the truth...After you saw the glasses like everyone else you then saw me make the case that Holt could be seen not wearing any glasses

 BS: I posted the image and you can?t even point out where these ?glasses? are. As for the person you think is Holt in Betzner, you can?t even see her face, much less whether she?s wearing glasses or not. You?re just making false claims like you always do.

Quote
Pretending you don't understand the reference for "Simmons group" would justly gain you banning on most forums...

No. Just because you think Simmons is standing where Westbrook identified herself doesn?t mean that Simmons is actually standing there.

Quote
As far as I know you are the only person on the internet who has the nerve to publicly deny that the 3 Women on the Knoll in Darnell are the same 3 Women seen next to the Stemmons sign in Zapruder...

Yet another lie ? you?ve seen the polls. This is why nothing you say can be trusted.

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Don't play dumb Iacoletti...You know exactly what I'm referring to...The middle woman seen in Darnell is Holt and she sharply, visibly is not wearing glasses...

So what? That tells us nothing about who is standing where in Zapruder.

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Since no photo of Calvery every shows her not wearing glasses

Right, like you?ve seen every photo ever taken of Calvery...

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this is proof enough that Tall Woman is Calvery...

That doesn?t even make sense. Lots of people wear glasses.

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This is good proof whether you deny it or not...

No, it?s a bunch of lies and empty claims.

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You can now be safely dismissed as the Cinque-like lunatic fringe opinion you are...

You?re in some serious denial about your own reputation.

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You're in denial of proven evidence and should not be allowed to harass credible researchers...

What ?credible researchers??

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Moricet banned me and kept you...

Exactly. By the way, his name is Morissette, Mr. ?credible researcher?.  :D

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It is my opinion Iacoletti that you and your denial trolling are a major detriment to this website and are largely responsible for better quality researchers not posting here because they want to avoid this kind of mud pit wrestling that gums up the site with aggravating noise that jams the good research signal...

What gums up the site is your 400 page threads full of your repetitive whining about other forums, and your lies about the evidence.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 30, 2019, 09:58:14 AM
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You think you see any features at all on the person standing next to Betzner blob? That?s a good one!  You even think you know this person?s name!

How you?re claiming to see details of a hairline and face shape of a person wearing a headscarf is anyone?s guess.

Hogwash, you can?t even point out where these ?glasses? are.

Iacoletti,

If you were to were to read Dallas News' November 2012 article https://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtown-dallas/2012/11/22/two-eyewitnesses-reunite-once-a-year-on-anniversary-of-kennedys-death on JFK assassination witnesses Ernest Brandt and John Templin, and if you were to look at Robin Unger's infamous yellow-labeled Zapruder-151 frame and find in it (gasp ... correctly-labeled!) Ernest Brandt standing next to his 21 year-old friend John Templin, and if you were to look at the people, cars, and landscape in in Betzner-3 and compare them with the people, cars, and landscape in Willis-5, taking special care to notice that John Templin is in both Betzner-3 and Willis-5), and if you were to take into consideration the fact that Hugh Betzner -- who took "Betzner-3" 0.874 of a second before Willis took "Willis-5" -- was standing on the other side of Elm Street about 30 feet behind and a little to the left of Phil Willis (as regards Zapruder's LOS/POV of the limousine in Z-186/Z-187) on the other side of Elm Street, and if you were to realize that Betzner-3 was taken simultaneous to Zapruder-186/187, and that Willis-5 was taken simultaneous to Z-202, and if you were to realize that Abraham Zapruder can be seen standing on his pedestal and very near the L-R center point of both Willis-3 and Betzner-5, and if you were to realize that both Phil Willis and Hugh Betzner are visible in the background of Unger's yellow-labeled Z-frame (or in a clearer Z-frame near it), well gosh, taking all of the above together you'd realize that fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt can be seen standing next to John Templin in Willis-5, and that John Templin can be seen next to your "Glasses Woman" (aka Gloria Calvery) in Betzner-3.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on March 30, 2019, 04:33:32 PM

In his dishonest response above, where Iacoletti answers his self-serving evasions instead of answering what you actually wrote, Iacoletti conspicuously avoids answering that we can see the faces of the people on either side of the Calvery group in the spectators and you can see that none of them are the Calvery group...

That forces the Calvery group to be Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...The only reason we haven't proven this even more is because the Secret Service men are blocking some of them in the photos...

Iacoletti doesn't have an answer for this and is arrogant enough to think he's getting away with his flagrant ignoring of it and dishonest diversions in order not to have to answer it...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 31, 2019, 04:36:33 AM
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If you were to look at the Zapruder Film and find in it fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt standing next to John Templin (two of the very few correctly-labeled people in Robin Unger's famous yellow-labeled Z-frame),

The fact that you think somebody is correctly or incorrectly labeled doesn?t mean a whole lot.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 31, 2019, 04:40:11 AM
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In his dishonest response above, where Iacoletti answers his self-serving evasions instead of answering what you actually wrote, Iacoletti conspicuously avoids answering that we can see the faces of the people on either side of the Calvery group in the spectators and you can see that none of them are the Calvery group...

No, ?we? can?t see the faces of the people on either side of what you?re calling ?Calvery group?. You?re just making stuff up again.

Quote
The only reason we haven't proven this even more is because the Secret Service men are blocking some of them in the photos...

LOL. So much for ?seeing the faces?.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 01, 2019, 05:29:03 AM
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No, ?we? can?t see the faces of the people on either side of what you?re calling ?Calvery group?. You?re just making stuff up again.

LOL. So much for ?seeing the faces?.


This is just naysay trolling...Iacoletti isn't answering what was written...Roberdeau did research the statements and did adequately attach identities to those persons surrounding the Calvery group...

The deception Iacoletti is trying to get away with is saying the Calvery group could be somewhere else without bothering to supply where exactly that somewhere else is?...You can't do that...Especially when that somewhere else is already occupied by other known persons who can be identified according to their known look, hair, or body shape...That's why Iacoletti stays safely within his intentionally over-simplified naysaying, because once he actually had to show where Calvery was he wouldn't be able to do it...

Calvery is Tall Woman...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 01, 2019, 10:51:42 PM
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This is just naysay trolling...Iacoletti isn't answering what was written...Roberdeau did research the statements and did adequately attach identities to those persons surrounding the Calvery group...

 BS: nobody gave a description detailed enough to uniquely locate them with no other information. Roberdeau is making educated guesses. You believe his guesses when they suit you and disputed them when they don?t.

Quote
The deception Iacoletti is trying to get away with is saying the Calvery group could be somewhere else without bothering to supply where exactly that somewhere else is?...

I have no idea where Calvery is. That doesn?t make you right. Westbrook said she was next to her over by the sign (from Zapruder?s perspective). You don?t know there was a ?Calvery group? of four standing next to each other at all. That?s just an assumption.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 01, 2019, 11:36:01 PM

You're not answering to the "education" Roberdeau presented...If we resourced all the community assets as far as research skill we could examine all the people on either side of the Calvery group and you would see that what I am saying is true...All the other persons are either directly identified or proven not to be any of the Calvery group...What happens in the dysfunctional JFK research community is they see you've got a good case so they deliberately ignore you...That's a violation of their so-called research ethics...

You present goofy inadequate arguments Iacoletti and we could start with Altgens to show what I am saying is true and we can confirm the Calvery group by a process of elimination...You're cooked Iacoletti and you never honestly answer the full competent evidence you call for...Look at Altgens and we can see none of them are the Calvery group because you can see their faces clearly and connect them to known persons...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 02, 2019, 08:04:57 PM
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Iacoletti,

If you were to look at Robin Unger's yellow-labeled Zapruder frame and find in it fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt standing next to John Templin, and if you were to look at the cars and the people and the landscape in Betzner-3 and compare them with Willis-5, and if you were to take into consideration that Phil Willis and Hugh Betzner were standing about 20 feet from each other (with Betzner behind and a little to the left of Willis) on the other side of Elm Street when they took their photos 0.874 seconds apart, and that both of those photographers are visible in the background of Unger's chosen Z-frame (or a clearer one near it) ...

and if you were to realize that Zapruder is standing up on his pedestal not far from the L-R center point in both Betzner-3 and (0.874 second later) Willis-5, well, taking all of the above together you'd realize that fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt can be seen standing next to John Templin in Willis-5, and that John Templin can be seen next to your "Glasses Woman" (aka Gloria Calvery) in Betzner-3.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

edited and bumped
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 02, 2019, 08:25:46 PM
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You're not answering to the "education" Roberdeau presented...If we resourced all the community assets as far as research skill we could examine all the people on either side of the Calvery group and you would see that what I am saying is true...

Feel free to present any research that identifies the spectators and gives the criteria for doing so.  Until then, your insistence that what you are saying is true is completely meaningless.

Quote
Look at Altgens and we can see none of them are the Calvery group because you can see their faces clearly and connect them to known persons...

As usual, you are incomprehensibly babbling.  You can see some faces but not others in Altgens.  You can't see your so-called "Calvery group" in Altgens at all, or several people on either side of them. 
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 03, 2019, 04:55:55 PM
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Feel free to present any research that identifies the spectators and gives the criteria for doing so.  Until then, your insistence that what you are saying is true is completely meaningless.

As usual, you are incomprehensibly babbling.  You can see some faces but not others in Altgens.  You can't see your so-called "Calvery group" in Altgens at all, or several people on either side of them.


I already have...You're just trolling/denying it...If you go to Altgens and actually look up the persons Roberdeau has matched to the evidence and witness statements those persons are the persons labeled by Roberdeau in his Zapruder frame...You are offering obnoxious entries but you haven't answered the fact that evidence-wise you are cooked because we have proven the Calvery group can't be anywhere else beside the foursome from Tall Woman left...You are denying that the heights match...The truth is the heights for Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook do perfectly match those 4 ladies...You are just offering pretend doubt and aren't credible because we have come up with the goods and all you have come up with is your usual dishonest trolling denials...

If you were a credible researcher who was honestly seeking the truth (which you obviously are not) you would Google the names and witness statements of the persons Roberdeau labeled from Westbrook left...You will see those ladies line up with the names he attached...You're cooked Iacoletti and your pretend calls for me to show evidence are the obvious evasions of good evidence they are...




Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2019, 09:40:07 PM
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You are offering obnoxious entries but you haven't answered the fact that evidence-wise you are cooked because we have proven the Calvery group can't be anywhere else beside the foursome from Tall Woman left...You are denying that the heights match...The truth is the heights for Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook do perfectly match those 4 ladies...

 BS:  You've offered no evidence for what you claim.  You've just repeated the claims over and over again.  You haven't even shown any evidence that those four ladies stood together.

Quote
If you were a credible researcher who was honestly seeking the truth (which you obviously are not) you would Google the names and witness statements of the persons Roberdeau labeled from Westbrook left...

Yeah, we can see how well you know the evidence based on the hundreds of untruths you tell about it.  Roberdeau didn't label your "foursome", so stop name-dropping.  You've got nothing.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 04, 2019, 05:01:05 PM
The heights and the fact all the women to their left are visibly shorter is proof enough...They said they were together and there you see them together according to their corresponding heights and body sizes...Only in your mind, Iacoletti, would this highly confirming evidence become a total lack of evidence...Moricet kept you and your naysay trolling and banned myself using hardcore Lone Nutter Jim Hess as a consultant moderator for my banning...

You are getting away with naysay trolling murder on this site Iacoletti and in my opinion the site quality would be much better if you were not allowed to enter silly denials in response to highly credible technical evidence...

If we go to your responses we will see that no serious effort is made to acknowledge that we can account for the women to the Calvery group's left in both Zapruder and Altgens and it proves that they are those other people and are therefore not the Calvery group by elimination...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 07:53:09 PM
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The heights and the fact all the women to their left are visibly shorter is proof enough...

Sure, for you.   :D

Quote
They said they were together and there you see them together according to their corresponding heights and body sizes...

They didn't say they stood side-by-side in a foursome.  That part you just made up.  Along with your silly notion that you've actually "matched" any heights or body sizes.

Quote
Only in your mind, Iacoletti, would this highly confirming evidence become a total lack of evidence...

Only in your mind does your made up BS constitute "highly confirming evidence".

Quote
Moricet kept you and your naysay trolling and banned myself using hardcore Lone Nutter Jim Hess as a consultant moderator for my banning...

You poison every group and forum you touch with your falsehoods and obsessive narcissism.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 04, 2019, 08:27:38 PM
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They didn't say they stood side-by-side in a foursome.


Iacoletti,

In their FBI statements, those four work colleagues (Calvery, Hicks, Reed, Westbrook) said in so many words that they went from the TSBD to their mythical "about halfway spot" on Elm Street together and watched the motorcade together.

Do you think they would have done so (watched the motorcade together) with strangers interspersed between them, precluding their saying to each other, "Oh, I like the color of her dress," and, "Look at that cute little 'pillbox' hat!" to each other over the din of the crowd and the motorcycles, etc?

LOL

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 08:40:57 PM
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In their FBI statements, those four work colleagues (Calvery, Hicks, Reed, Westbrook) said, in so many words, that they went from the TSBD to their mythical "about halfway spot" on Elm Street together and watched the motorcade together.

"In so many words".  LOL.  In other words, they didn't say that -- you're assuming that.

Quote
Do you think they would have done so (watched the motorcade together) with strangers interspersed between them, precluding their saying to each other, "Oh, I like the color of her dress," and, "Look at that cute little 'pillbox' hat!" to each other over the din of the crowd and the motorcycles, etc?

Why would you think they said any of these things?  Just more made up nonsense?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 04, 2019, 10:11:15 PM
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"In so many words".  LOL.  In other words, they didn't say that -- you're assuming that.

Why would you think they said any of these things?  Just more made up nonsense?

Iacoletti,

What would a "Reasonable Man" (it's a legal concept, John) infer from these four work colleagues' saying in their FBI statements that they went down Elm Street "with" each other, and that they "were with" each other while watching the (noisy) motorcade?

LOL

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 10:55:12 PM
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What would a "Reasonable Man" (it's a legal concept, John) infer from these four work colleagues' saying in their FBI statements that they went down Elm Street "with" each other, and that they "were with" each other while watching the (noisy) motorcade?

That they were nearby each other -- not necessarily side-by-side, four in a row.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 04, 2019, 11:02:10 PM
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That they were nearby each other -- not necessarily side-by-side, four in a row.


I've proven they were side by side by their heights as compared to the Christmas photos...

Also, Iacoletti is trollishly ignoring that all the women to Westbrook's left are visibly too short to be either Calvery or Westbrook so therefore that PROVES the Calvery group is not to the left of the women I am calling Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...You can see up to Maggie Brown in Altgens so that proves the Calvery group cannot be left of the women I am saying is them in Zapruder because Maggie Brown is only 1 or 2 persons from Westbrook...

You're cooked Iacoletti...


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2019, 11:50:46 PM
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I've proven they were side by side by their heights as compared to the Christmas photos...

You really need to learn the difference between a claim and a proof.

Quote
Also, Iacoletti is trollishly ignoring that all the women to Westbrook's left are visibly too short to be either Calvery or Westbrook so therefore that PROVES the Calvery group is not to the left of the women I am calling Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...

You don't even know that the 4 of them stood side-by-side.  And you don't know any of them are "too short to be Calvery or Westbrook", because YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TALL ANY OF THEM ARE.  Your entire argument is specious.  Besides, what about all the people standing to the right of your so-called "Calvery group"?  Why are you just looking to the left?

Quote
You're cooked Iacoletti...

You haven't even figured out how to turn the oven on...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 05, 2019, 03:42:02 AM
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That they were nearby each other -- not necessarily side-by-side, four in a row.

John,

Okay.

Great!

So, in Zapruder or any other "motorcade" film or photo, can you find any other four women in that general part of the north-side sidewalk who, taken individually or in some combination, can reasonably be said to comprise the four-woman group of "White" female work colleagues we've been talking about -- Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook?

If so, could you please point them out to us?

Thanks.

-- Tommy

Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 05, 2019, 07:05:31 AM
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That they were nearby each other -- not necessarily side-by-side, four in a row.


No...They were four in a row and you are just in silly denial of the evidence...

You refuse to answer that Altgens shows up to Maggie Brown which in turn leaves only 1 or 2 persons in between Westbrook and Maggie Brown...Hicks and Reed are in between the taller Calvery and Westbrook...You foolishly (I can't use the word I wanted) ignore that we know Running Woman was one of the group because she followed Calvery and Reed back to the steps, showing they were all together as a group...Those persons in that group were all shoulder to shoulder...



Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:03:58 AM
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So, in Zapruder or any other "motorcade" film or photo, can you find any other four women in that general part of the north-side sidewalk who, taken individually or in some combination, can reasonably be said to comprise the four-woman group of "White" female work colleagues we've been talking about -- Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook?

From the backs of their heads in Zapruder, or the blurry and blocked messes in Betzner or Willis?  Not likely.  That goes for your candidates too.

You don't know what you don't know.  Even if you think you do know.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:06:18 AM
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No...They were four in a row and you are just in silly denial of the evidence...

There's no evidence whatsoever that they were "four in a row".  None.

Quote
You refuse to answer that Altgens shows up to Maggie Brown which in turn leaves only 1 or 2 persons in between Westbrook and Maggie Brown...

You don't know that's Maggie Brown or Karen Westbrook.

Quote
Hicks and Reed are in between the taller Calvery and Westbrook...

You don't know that either.

Quote
You foolishly (I can't use the word I wanted) ignore that we know Running Woman was one of the group because she followed Calvery and Reed back to the steps, showing they were all together as a group...

Utter  BS:

Repeating your made-up story over and over again doesn't make it true.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 06, 2019, 01:11:36 AM
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There's no evidence whatsoever that they were "four in a row".  None.


It's not working Iacoletti...

If we could post the widest angle version of Altgens 6 you would see the woman to Westbrook's immediate left is visible in clear focus...You are not credibly answering that we can see all the women from that woman east and none of them are the Calvery group...

Find the biggest, clearest wide angle version of Altgens 6 and you will see I am correct on this...(and your excuses aren't working)...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:21:58 AM
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If we could post the widest angle version of Altgens 6 you would see the woman to Westbrook's immediate left is visible in clear focus...

Why don't you show everybody how smart you are and actually do it, rather than just flapping your gums about what you think you could show if you could show it?

And even if you could, how would this tell you anything about where Westbrook is?

Quote
You are not credibly answering that we can see all the women from that woman east and none of them are the Calvery group...

You're not credibly answering the fact that there is no evidence of a "Calvery group" at all.

Quote
Find the biggest, clearest wide angle version of Altgens 6 and you will see I am correct on this...(and your excuses aren't working)...

No, you haven't been correct about anything yet.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 06, 2019, 01:27:39 AM
Wrong points Iacoletti...

If we post an enlargement of the widest angle version of Altgens, that shows the furthest women to the left side of the Altgens frame, you will see:

1)  That the furthest woman left at the edge of the frame is the woman next to Westbrook to her left...

2)  That this woman is in clear focus as well as all the other women to her east...

3)  That anyone could see none of them are the Calvery group...

4)  That therefore the foursome we are showing are provably the Calvery group...

If you had any competency whatsoever and were following this debate we have proven this by exclusion...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 01:30:29 AM
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Wrong points Iacoletti...

If we post an enlarged version that shows the furthest women to the left side of the Altgens frame you will see:

1)  That the furthest woman left at the edge of the frame is the woman next to Westbrook to her left...

2)  That this woman is in clear focus as well as all the other women to her east...

3)  That anyone could see none of them are the Calvery group...

4)  That therefore the foursome we are showing are provable the Calvery group...

If you had any competency whatsoever and were following this debate we have proven this by exclusion...

So post your "enlarged version" and let's put your predictions to the test.

But what about all the people who are not even in frame in Altgens?

And oh yeah, you still don't know there was a Calvery group standing four in a row.

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 06, 2019, 05:51:59 AM
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It's not working Iacoletti...

If we could post the widest angle version of Altgens 6 you would see the woman to Westbrook's immediate left is visible in clear focus.


Here it is, but it's not very clear.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=14

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 06, 2019, 05:51:11 PM

The murder that Iacoletti is flagrantly being allowed to get away with is once you enlarge Thomas's photo in his link you can see the semi-hispanic woman that is furthest west in the wide angle Altgens...You can also see the blonde Mary Woodward...You can also see there are two women in between Mary Woodward and the semi-hispanic woman...If you then look at Zapruder and count these women from the other viewpoint you can see that the semi-hispanic woman is irrefutably next to Karen Westbrook...

We then return to the fact that you can see the identities of all the women from the semi-hispanic woman east...Roberdeau labels them Maggie Brown, Ann Donaldson, and Mary Woodward with the semi-hispanic woman being obscured...These women are not Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook, so we have therefore proven that the Calvery group is not in the spectators from the semi-hispanic woman east...This therefore proves the Calvery group are the women we are saying from Tall Woman east and are standing shoulder to shoulder...

Nice troll Iacoletti but you are cooked...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 11:48:23 PM
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Here it is, but it's not very clear.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 06, 2019, 11:52:05 PM
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The murder that Iacoletti is flagrantly being allowed to get away with is once you enlarge Thomas's photo in his link you can see the semi-hispanic woman that is furthest west in the wide angle Altgens...You can also see the blonde Mary Woodward...You can also see there are two women in between Mary Woodward and the semi-hispanic woman...If you then look at Zapruder and count these women from the other viewpoint you can see that the semi-hispanic woman is irrefutably next to Karen Westbrook...

We then return to the fact that you can see the identities of all the women from the semi-hispanic woman east...Roberdeau labels them Maggie Brown, Ann Donaldson, and Mary Woodward with the semi-hispanic woman being obscured...These women are not Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook, so we have therefore proven that the Calvery group is not in the spectators from the semi-hispanic woman east...This therefore proves the Calvery group are the women we are saying from Tall Woman east and are standing shoulder to shoulder...

I?m not sure how you think you ?see? their identities, but even if you could, you haven?t explained how that tells you the identities of the people standing next to them.

You?re reduced to ranting and raving like a crazy cat lady.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 08:35:35 AM
Here it is, but it's not very clear.

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Exactly.

I should have said, " ... but I've seen clearer copies."

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 07, 2019, 06:06:01 PM
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I?m not sure how you think you ?see? their identities, but even if you could, you haven?t explained how that tells you the identities of the people standing next to them.

You?re reduced to ranting and raving like a crazy cat lady.


You're trolling Iacoletti and shouldn't be allowed to do that...

It forces their identities by exclusion...You always grant yourself the advantage by switching to your aggressive troll points in every reply and putting the burden on us but the real reality shows you have offered nothing and never intend to...We have proven that the 4 women from Tall Woman east are Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...You can even see Westbrook in Willis and Betzner...The identities of Donaldson and Brown can be determined by people who knew them like Woodward because there are enough body features and detail and you can even see them from the front in Altgens, Willis, and Betzner...You grant yourself the privilege of naysay trolling so you allow yourself to ignore the greater more detailed evidence in your nutty deception...However that greater evidence that you switch the subject from each and every time with your naysay trolling shows that the women from Dishong east are provably not in the Calvery group...Nor are the persons from Templin west...By exclusion that proves the Tall Woman group is the Calvery foursome of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...This is true no matter how many times you trollishly deny it...

You are ignoring that some of the Calvery group said they were close to the limousine when Kennedy was shot and the Calvery group best fits that description...Plus you also dishonestly ignore/deny that we have proven Calvery is back at the steps with Woman In All White (Reed) and that proves it is them in the spectators...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 09:32:57 PM
You haven?t proven anything that you have claimed to prove. You think that making the same claim over and over again is somehow ?proof?.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 08, 2019, 04:42:02 AM
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You haven?t proven anything that you have claimed to prove. You think that making the same claim over and over again is somehow ?proof?.

Hypocritical, you "broken record," you.

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 05:17:47 AM
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Hypocritical, you "broken record," you.

When Doyle stops lying, I?ll stop pointing it out.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 08, 2019, 08:11:40 AM
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When Doyle stops lying, I?ll stop pointing it out.

You're the biggest prevaricator I know of here, Iacoletti, hiding your over-the-top "Oswald Didn't Do It" bias-ness under the guise of "empiricism," "logic," and uber-"rationality" ... inconvenient facts be damned.

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 04:58:15 PM
In the motion Zapruder video Maggie Brown and Ann Donaldson are visibly shorter than Karen Westbrook who is right beside them...I would like to call up Woodward and get her to explain how she was so sure who Alonzo, Donaldson, and Brown were and get it on voice recorder...In Willis you can see Donaldson's fat "Betty Boop" head as the last woman to the right...Since Westbrook and Calvery are the two tallest women in the Christmas photos Westbrook being visibly taller than Donaldson and Brown who are right beside her is proof that the women from Dishong east are none of the Calvery group...I give Duncan credit because every time those who were deliberately prevaricating led us in to months-long unending discussion of this proof that was obvious months ago when we first posted it the mods intervened and locked the thread - giving the advantage to those who were denying the evidence...Those other mods were giving protection to their friends and helping sustain an already-disproven theory under the guise of arbitrary moderation...

Smiling and nodding Fagin would have helped us had he pointed-out the Calvery group in his interview to the sharp-memoried Woodward and asked her if she remembered them or could identify them in Zapruder...

No serious poster would deny Donaldson and Brown are visibly shorter to a determinative degree in the motion Zapruder...Once you show Donaldson and Brown are shorter to an excluding degree that PROVES the women from Dishong east cannot be any of the Calvery group...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 06:48:30 PM
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You're the biggest prevaricator I know of here, Iacoletti, hiding your over-the-top "Oswald Didn't Do It" bias-ness under the guise of "empiricism," "logic," and uber-"rationality" ... inconvenient facts be damned.

I don?t know if Oswald did it or not.

So much for your latest bogus assumption.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
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In the motion Zapruder video Maggie Brown and Ann Donaldson are visibly shorter than Karen Westbrook who is right beside them...

Too bad you don?t actually know that?s Karen Westbrook.

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Since Westbrook and Calvery are the two tallest women in the Christmas photos Westbrook being visibly taller than Donaldson and Brown who are right beside her is proof that the women from Dishong east are none of the Calvery group...

That?s patently absurd, given that you don?t know how tall Donaldson and Brown are. Or Calvery and Westbrook for that matter. Or any of the Zapruder spectators.

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Smiling and nodding Fagin would have helped us had he pointed-out the Calvery group in his interview to the sharp-memoried Woodward and asked her if she remembered them or could identify them in Zapruder...

?Calvery group?. LOL
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 07:23:56 PM
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Too bad you don?t actually know that?s Karen Westbrook.

We've proven it by the fact you can't show anyone else who is without the transparent cop-out of "It's not my job to show evidence"...Wrong it is your job and you failed worse than anybody...

The woman I am calling Westbrook is Westbrook...It is proven by all the evidence I've been posting, especially the height...

I sent Westbrook an evidence package by e-mail and got no response...

Mary Woodward died 2 years ago...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 07:28:07 PM
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That?s patently absurd, given that you don?t know how tall Donaldson and Brown are. Or Calvery and Westbrook for that matter. Or any of the Zapruder spectators.


That's not true...We know how tall they are from the Christmas photos...Plus you can see Donaldson's large "Betty Boop" head in Willis (that you ignore)...You're a hypocrite Iacoletti because you endorse Westbrook's so-called memory in the 6th Floor Museum interview but don't do so with Woodward's obviously more credible memory...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 07:36:37 PM
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That's not true...We know how tall they are from the Christmas photos...

Only relatively. There?s no height scale or any known scale by which to measure them in the Christmas photos or in Zapruder. Relative heights don?t do you any good when all of the people are unknown.

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Plus you can see Donaldson's large "Betty Boop" head in Willis (that you ignore)...

Show this ?Betty Boop? head and how you know she had one.

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You're a hypocrite Iacoletti because you endorse Westbrook's so-called memory in the 6th Floor Museum interview but don't do so with Woodward's obviously more credible memory...

I can endorse both of them because guess what? Woodward says nothing about your so-called ?Calvery group?.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 07:41:33 PM
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We've proven it by the fact you can't show anyone else who is without the transparent cop-out of "It's not my job to show evidence"...Wrong it is your job and you failed worse than anybody...

Nope. It?s your claim that these four people in Zapruder left to right are Westbrook, Reed, Hicks, and Calvery. The burden is on you to prove each of those things. You aren?t automatically right whether or not I can locate them elsewhere. Sorry.

I have Westbrook?s own statement about where she was. You just have you own handwaving guesses.

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I sent Westbrook an evidence package by e-mail and got no response...

It always goes well when you dictate to witnesses where they were and what they saw.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 07:45:32 PM
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I can endorse both of them because guess what? Woodward says nothing about your so-called ?Calvery group?.


She doesn't have to because competent analysis realizes she eliminates all the women from Dishong east and therefore proves the Tall Woman group are Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook by exclusion...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 08:13:55 PM
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She doesn't have to because competent analysis realizes she eliminates all the women from Dishong east and therefore proves the Tall Woman group are Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook by exclusion...

No, that's ridiculous.  Not only have you not actually "eliminated all the women from Dishong east", but you're completely ignoring everyone to the west of your "tall woman".  Besides, the FBI statements that you are (sometimes) so fond of, place Holt and Jacob on the South side of Elm street.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 09:19:43 PM

A person who ignores that we have photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob as the 3 women by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder should not be taken seriously or even responded to...

Iacoletti knows as well as I do that all the people on the south side of Elm were captured in the photography and none of them were Holt and Jacob...Even the main Prayer Man advocate acknowledges Jacob is the woman with the brown jacket and white skirt...

The people west of Tall Woman are proven not to be any of the Calvery group...

You have failed Iacoletti because Woman In All White and Hicks running back to the steps fits the testimony and your girls are still lingering on the Knoll well after...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 09:41:20 PM
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A person who ignores that we have photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob as the 3 women by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder should not be taken seriously or even responded to...

 BS:  You don't have "photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob as the 3 women by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder".

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Iacoletti knows as well as I do that all the people on the south side of Elm were captured in the photography and none of them were Holt and Jacob...

So much for getting your information from FBI statments.

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Even the main Prayer Man advocate acknowledges Jacob is the woman with the brown jacket and white skirt...

Who cares?

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The people west of Tall Woman are proven not to be any of the Calvery group...

You haven't proven squat.  You've merely claimed that you have proven it without ever providing a proof.

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You have failed Iacoletti because Woman In All White and Hicks running back to the steps fits the testimony and your girls are still lingering on the Knoll well after...

Nope, you haven't demonstrated either of these claims to be true either.  It's just one big giant speculation.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 10:06:55 PM

Simply not true...We have proven the 3 Women in Darnell are the same 3 Women in Zapruder...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 11:24:38 PM
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Simply not true...We have proven the 3 Women in Darnell are the same 3 Women in Zapruder...

No, you actually haven?t. Your ?proof? is that you think they look the same.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 09, 2019, 07:12:42 AM

The blue scarf, and brown jacket and white skirt are a match...

The Prayer Man group and Parker are taking advantage of the fact Truly is dead and can't instantly confirm the enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room door was known as the "Vestibule"...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 09, 2019, 07:58:09 AM
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The blue scarf, and brown jacket and white skirt are a match...

The Prayer Man group and Parker are taking advantage of the fact Truly is dead and can't instantly confirm the enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room door was known as the "Vestibule"...

Brian,

Why the hell do you keep saying "enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room"?

Can't you think of a less awkward way of saying it?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 04:32:53 PM
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The blue scarf, and brown jacket and white skirt are a match...

You haven't even come close to demonstrating a "match".  You define "perfect forensic match" as "looks the same to me!"

Quote
The Prayer Man group and Parker are taking advantage of the fact Truly is dead and can't instantly confirm the enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room door was known as the "Vestibule"...

a) there is no enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room door

b) you have no evidence that the enclosure next to the 2nd floor lunch room door was "known as" a "vestibule".  Known by whom?
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 09, 2019, 09:55:16 PM
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Brian,

Why the hell do you keep saying "enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room"?

Can't you think of a less awkward way of saying it?

-- MWT  ;)


You left off the "door" part...There's nothing wrong with what I wrote...Stop being weird Thomas...
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 09, 2019, 10:02:46 PM
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You haven't even come close to demonstrating a "match". 


I don't do word games Iacoletti...It bespeaks the non-serious nature of your purposes here that you are allowed to get away with...

In any case all serious credible sources agree the Simmons' blue scarf and Jacob's brown jacket and white skirt are a match...You are the only person in the community who doesn't recognize it...Even the main Prayer Man nut agreed the woman with the puffy hair was Jacob but then he weirdly refused to admit the other two were Simmons and Holt...We're still waiting for you to show us Simmons and Holt anywhere else...

If you tried this in a court you'd be censured and kicked out of the court room and we would instantly get the verdict...You are being allowed to use this website as a forum for your naysaying of good evidence...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 10:54:19 PM
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You left off the "door" part...There's nothing wrong with what I wrote...Stop being weird Thomas...

What gave you the weird idea that there's an enclosure over the 2nd floor lunch room door -- wooden or otherwise?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 10:58:11 PM
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In any case all serious credible sources agree the Simmons' blue scarf and Jacob's brown jacket and white skirt are a match...

Not Karen Westbrook, who is more credible than you, Mr. 349 falsehoods.

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If you tried this in a court you'd be censured and kicked out of the court room and we would instantly get the verdict...

Dream on, O delusional one.

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You are being allowed to use this website as a forum for your naysaying of good evidence...

Actually I'm calling you out on all your fabricated BS.  You are being allowed to use this website as a forum for your obsessive and repetitive misinformation, narcissism, and whining about other forums.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 10, 2019, 01:03:22 AM
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Not Karen Westbrook, who is more credible than you, Mr. 349 falsehoods.

Dream on, O delusional one.

Actually I'm calling you out on all your fabricated BS.  You are being allowed to use this website as a forum for your obsessive and repetitive misinformation, narcissism, and whining about other forums.

Compared to her white blouse, and the motorcycle cop's helmet, and the white shirt of TRILBY-wearing Ernest Brandt, Karen Westbrook's headscarf in Betzner-3 looks very light blue in color, which might help to explain how she could misidentify light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons as herself, and reddish-haired Gloria Holt as (very) red-haired Gloria Calvery.

Especially since she did so from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=5&pos=2

-- MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 01:49:31 PM
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Compared to her white blouse, and the motorcycle cop's helmet, and the white shirt of TRILBY-wearing Ernest Brandt, Karen Westbrook's headscarf in Betzner-3 looks very light blue in color,

It looks light blue in Betzner (a black & white image)? There you go again.  :D

Admit it, you have no evidence that white scarf lady is Westbrook. None whatsoever. You ?see? what you want to see.

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which might help to explain how she could misidentify light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons as herself, and reddish-haired Gloria Holt as (very) red-haired Gloria Calvery.

Especially since she did so from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.

Fagin also showed her as blue scarf lady in Willis from the front. She knows better than you where she was standing and what her scarf looked like.

Also, how do you know that Brandt had a trilby or that his hat even looks like hat man?s?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 10, 2019, 03:21:15 PM
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It looks light blue in Betzner (a black & white image)? There you go again.  :D

Admit it, you have no evidence that white scarf lady is Westbrook. None whatsoever. You ?see? what you want to see.

Fagin also showed her as blue scarf lady in Willis from the front. She knows better than you where she was standing and what her scarf looked like.

Also, how do you know that Brandt had a trilby or that his hat even looks like hat man?s?

Sorry, Iacoletti, I obviously meant to say "Willis-3".

-- MWT  ;)

PS  There are two "Blue Headscarf Ladies" in Willis-3: (light-blue) Sharron Simmons in the center of the photograph, and (very light-blue) Karen Westbrook on the far right.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 03:30:00 PM
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Admit it, you have no evidence that white scarf lady is Westbrook. None whatsoever. You ?see? what you want to see.


That's not true and you are insisting on a non-fact here...

We've proven it is Westbrook by elimination...In the motion Zapruder this person turns to the person next to her to talk...That person is Woman In All White or (Reed)...The woman in the white scarf is Westbrook because we have excluded all the options on either side of the Calvery group despite your denials...You're playing dumb, but fact is the woman in the white scarf can be determined by eye to be the right height for Westbrook as compared to the Christmas photos and saying we need specific tools for calibration is not a legitimate argument...

Go from Templin west and a credible analyzer can see none of the women choices have Hicks or Reed's slender figures...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 05:24:03 PM
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Sorry, Iacoletti, I obviously meant to say "Willis-3".

Actually, I think you must have meant Willis 5.  Willis 3 was taken on Houston street.   :D

I'm not even sure who you think Westbrook is in Willis 5.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 05:27:41 PM
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We've proven it is Westbrook by elimination...In the motion Zapruder this person turns to the person next to her to talk...

How you think a head turn identifies a person is a true mystery.

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The woman in the white scarf is Westbrook because we have excluded all the options on either side of the Calvery group despite your denials...

This is BS no matter how many times you repeat it.

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You're playing dumb, but fact is the woman in the white scarf can be determined by eye to be the right height for Westbrook as compared to the Christmas photos

So is this.

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and saying we need specific tools for calibration is not a legitimate argument...

Yes it is.  You can't compare heights of spectators in Zapruder with people photographed in a different place, with a different camera, from a different distance without having some basis for comparison.

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Go from Templin west and a credible analyzer can see none of the women choices have Hicks or Reed's slender figures...

LOL.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 05:34:56 PM
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Yes it is.  You can't compare heights of spectators in Zapruder with people photographed in a different place, with a different camera, from a different distance without having some basis for comparison.


Yes you can...And the only reason you are denying the height match between the Christmas photos and Zapruder is because you know they prove our case...

You are being allowed to pump noise into legitimate research...You shouldn't be allowed to...

Credible analysis shows the heights and body shapes of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook in the Christmas photos perfectly matches those of the Tall Woman foursome and it can be seen by eye...You're just naysay denying and shouldn't be allowed to...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 05:42:32 PM
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Yes you can...And the only reason you are denying the height match between the Christmas photos and Zapruder is because you know they prove our case...

How have you shown this "match"?  All you've done is say "they match".
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 03:44:21 PM


Anyone can see their heights match by eye...You're in denial of this and think you can get away with mocking good evidence with sophist denial...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
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Anyone can see their heights match by eye...

The last refuge of one whose entire argument is subjective conjecture.  "Anyone can see".   :D
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 04:48:47 PM
That's a semantic escape designed to get around answering the fact anyone CAN see that the heights in the Christmas photos do match that of the Calvery group in Zapruder...You're dodging the facts Iacoletti...

Especially Calvery and Westbrook who are the tallest in both Zapruder and the Christmas photos...

You're publicly avoiding answering the point of evidence and are answering to your own excuses...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
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That's a semantic escape designed to get around answering the fact anyone CAN see that the heights in the Christmas photos do match that of the Calvery group in Zapruder...You're dodging the facts Iacoletti...

That's not a fact -- it your unsubstantiated opinion.

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Especially Calvery and Westbrook who are the tallest in both Zapruder and the Christmas photos...

There's no scale with with to compare the Zapruder spectators with the Christmas photos.

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You're publicly avoiding answering the point of evidence and are answering to your own excuses...

I haven't avoided anything.  You keep making the same unsubstantiated claims and I keep pointing out that you haven't substantiated them.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 07:35:52 PM

The internal ratios of the women's heights in comparison to each other does check out Iacoletti...You are dodging honestly answering a valid point of evidence...

You can't find any other women as tall as Tall Woman and Westbrook in the Calvery group in Zapruder in the rest of the spectators...Since Calvery and Westbrook are the tallest in the Christmas photos that's all the proof you need and you are avoiding giving a credible answer to this PROOF...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 08:36:12 PM
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The internal ratios of the women's heights in comparison to each other does check out Iacoletti...

They do?  What are the ratios?

Your fatal flaw is that without knowing how tall any of the Zapruder spectators are, if you see two people, one of whom is say 85% of the height of the other, you don't know if the two people are 5' 11" and 5' 0' or 5' 8" and 4' 10" or 6' 4" and 5' 5".  Same goes for the Christmas photos.  Even if the ratios were the same (and you haven't even demonstrated that), that doesn't make the heights the same.

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You can't find any other women as tall as Tall Woman and Westbrook in the Calvery group in Zapruder in the rest of the spectators...

Bull.  The woman to the right of hat man is at least as tall.  So is the person you call Jacob.  But that doesn't even matter.  Even if tall woman is the tallest person on all of Elm street, that doesn't identify her as Calvery unless you know that Calvery was the tallest person on all of Elm street.  You don't.

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Since Calvery and Westbrook are the tallest in the Christmas photos that's all the proof you need and you are avoiding giving a credible answer to this PROOF...

Who says that tall woman and woman in white have to be anyone in the Christmas photos?

P.S. Calvery and Westbrook aren't even the tallest in the Christmas photos.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/office-women-heights.png)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 09:30:48 PM
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They do?  What are the ratios?

Your fatal flaw is that without knowing how tall any of the Zapruder spectators are, if you see two people, one of whom is say 85% of the height of the other, you don't know if the two people are 5' 11" and 5' 0' or 5' 8" and 4' 10" or 6' 4" and 5' 5".  Same goes for the Christmas photos.  Even if the ratios were the same (and you haven't even demonstrated that), that doesn't make the heights the same.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/office-women-heights.png)


That is stupidly not true...We know Calvery and Westbrook are those two because they are the tallest...This is guided by the same example in the Christmas photos...The tallest height is an isolated identifier and exclusionary...

Your argument style is not valid Iacoletti because you fail to look at the total evidence that puts Woman In All White back at the steps with Calvery in the correct time slot according to Lovelady & Shelley leaving the steps after talking to Calvery...You are deliberately over-simplify the arguments because if you honored our total evidence you know it would prove us correct...Every time I ask you for a straight answer to the timing of Calvery back at the steps after speaking to Lovelady & Shelley you switch the subject in to your bogus Skeptoid points...

If you tried what you do here in a court you would be restrained and gagged...


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 09:41:51 PM
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That is stupidly not true...We know Calvery and Westbrook are those two because they are the tallest...

You're like a brick wall.  You completely ignore the entire rebuttal and just parrot the same claim.  They are not the tallest two in the Christmas photos and you have no way of knowing that they were the tallest spectators standing on Elm street.

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Your argument style is not valid Iacoletti because you fail to look at the total evidence that puts Woman In All White back at the steps with Calvery in the correct time slot according to Lovelady & Shelley leaving the steps after talking to Calvery...

That's because none of your "evidence" holds up to scrutiny.  You don't know when Calvery ran up.  You don't know when Shelley and Lovelady left.  You don't know that a woman in white accompanied Calvery to the building.  You don't know when or if Calvery went up the steps.  You don't know what Calvery wore to work that day.  You don't know that black-blob on the steps has on a "plaid skirt".
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 10:17:08 PM


That isn't the argument...We have excluded all the persons to the east and west of the Calvery group from being them...You are dishonestly not following the argument...Tall Woman and Westbrook in the Calvery group are the tallest by eye of all people on either side of them...You can see this by eye no matter how much you pretend you can't...We could go over all the people on either side of the Calvery group one by one and they check out to not be Calvery, Hicks, Reed, or Westbrook...

You're finished Iacoletti because I made this comment and you ignored it and refused to answer it...It is a point that cannot be ignored without forfeiting the debate...

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Your argument style is not valid Iacoletti because you fail to look at the total evidence that puts Woman In All White back at the steps with Calvery in the correct time slot according to Lovelady & Shelley leaving the steps after talking to Calvery...You are deliberately over-simplifying the arguments because if you honored our total evidence you know it would prove us correct...Every time I ask you for a straight answer to the timing of Calvery back at the steps after speaking to Lovelady & Shelley you switch the subject in to your bogus Skeptoid points...


Your dishonest argument style depends on always aggressively seizing the narrative and forcing people to answer your disingenuous Skeptoid points...You just lost this debate buddy because I made a conclusive valid argument of evidence that you dodged in public and ignored...I have PROVEN that the short-length sweater and plaid skirt, as well as Woman In All White being back at the steps in Darnell forces the woman on the steps to be Calvery because of the timing of Lovelady & Shelley speaking to Calvery before they left the steps...Face it, that's Lovelady & Shelly going up the extension in Darnell which means they have finished speaking to Calvery at the steps about 3 seconds earlier...Which means Calvery is at the steps...If Reed was running and jumping over people who dove to the ground the timing of Darnell means they high-tailed back to the steps immediately in order to get there in time to be seen in Darnell...That limits the Woman In All White next to Tall Woman as the only option, which in turn makes Tall Woman Calvery for the same reason...Those are the only two women who can be Calvery and Reed on the steps according to all this evidence...When you combine this with the heights matching it is conclusive evidence for non-naysayers who aren't only looking to deny everything you write...

 
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 10:21:30 PM


Quote
You don't know when Calvery ran up.

It is stupid to say we don't know when Calvery ran up...We know precisely when she ran up...Because we can see Lovelady & Shelley going up the extension in Darnell and we know Couch/Darnell is 25-30 seconds after the last shot...A more credible analyst would understand this is the perfect time slot for Calvery running in a fight or flight adrenalin reaction to seeing Kennedy's head shot in front of her from her Tall Woman position...

You speak as if your input were the best and most demanding Iacoletti but frankly this is stupid-level material...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 10:35:00 PM
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It is stupid to say we don't know when Calvery ran up...We know precisely when she ran up...

No we don't.

Quote
Because we can see Lovelady & Shelley going up the extension in Darnell

No we can't.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 11:11:59 PM
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No we don't.

No we can't.


That's just silly childish naysaying...It's not good enough Iacoletti...

We know Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps before they headed up the extension because both Lovelady & Frazier witnessed it and spoke of it...As far as functional evidence, the timing is perfect for Calvery having a fight or flight adrenalin reaction to seeing Kennedy's head being shot and getting to the steps within the window for that timing that is seen in Darnell..If Carol Reed was jumping over people to get to the steps then she went at the same pace and that is her in all white next to Calvery on the steps...Couch/Darnell is 25-30 seconds after the last shot and there you have Calvery on the step in perfect synch...

You forfeited when you failed to answer this Iacoletti...

Thanks...

Debate over and won by myself...



 
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2019, 12:10:13 AM
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That's just silly childish naysaying...It's not good enough Iacoletti...

Silly childish claims deserve no more.  "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" - Hitchens' razor

Quote
We know Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps before they headed up the extension because both Lovelady & Frazier witnessed it and spoke of it...

Well, Lovelady did anyway...

Quote
As far as functional evidence, the timing is perfect for Calvery having a fight or flight adrenalin reaction to seeing Kennedy's head being shot and getting to the steps within the window for that timing that is seen in Darnell..

Too bad you have no way of knowing whether Calvery had a "fight or flight adrenalin reaction".

Quote
If Carol Reed was jumping over people to get to the steps then she went at the same pace

You didn't say that she said she was jumping over people to get to the steps.  All you said was that she jumped over a Hispanic couple with kids who were lying on the ground.  By the way, why don't you post the full contents of those emails?

Quote
and that is her in all white next to Calvery on the steps...

Too bad she didn't say that that she was wearing all white and too bad she said she went back to the building alone.

Quote
Couch/Darnell is 25-30 seconds after the last shot and there you have Calvery on the step in perfect synch...

There's nothing perfect about it.  You're just blatantly making up a timeline based on a baseless assumption that she had an adrenaline reaction and what you imagine that would cause her to do.  In reality, you have no way to know when black-blob-person or all-white-person got to their positions as seen in Darnell.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 13, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
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You have no way to know when black-blob-person or all-white-person got to their positions as seen in Darnell.

Iacoletti,

Are you denying that the woman you're calling "Black Blob Person in Couch-Darnell is wearing a black-appearing blouse (or sweater) and a black-appearing headscarf?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 13, 2019, 06:20:37 PM
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Well, Lovelady did anyway...

Once you admit Lovelady did then you lock-in to the timing I am showing of Calvery being at the steps 3 seconds after Lovelady & Shelley went up the extension...I guess you'll change your mind on this too once you realize it forces you to admit that woman on the steps is Calvery...

You're giving mushy evasive answers because you are avoiding the facts Iacoletti...Frazier said both Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps before they headed up the extension...Since Lovelady & Shelley are headed up the extension that proves Darnell is 3 seconds after they spoke to Calvery and therefore the timing is locked-in for the woman on the steps being Calvery...Woman In All White has to be Reed who is beside her because the timing only allows her to be that woman...17 seconds is perfect for the panicked Calvery to run to the steps...This is a synch-lock that confirms my scenario...

Your naysaying has very effectively allowed you to avoid the correct follow-through that makes Stanton Prayer Man according to Frazier's locating of Calvery at the steps...
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 13, 2019, 06:32:31 PM
 
Quote
You have no way to know when black-blob-person or all-white-person got to their positions as seen in Darnell.

This is just silly defiance of the facts...

We know the woman on the steps is Tall Woman because the short-length sweater combination with the plaid skirt shows they are the same person...Plus Iacoletti refuses to give a straight answer to the fact Lovelady & Shelley being seen going up the extension PROVES Darnell shows a scene that is 3 seconds after Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps...A smarter analyst would realize Lovelady & Shelley went up the extension exactly because of what they learned from Calvery - which is further reinforcement of what we are seeing...Iacoletti refuses to give a straight answer to the fact this forces Calvery to be at the steps at the time of Darnell and there she is...Iacoletti also dishonestly denies that Woman In All White is strong proof that the woman is Clavery...

We have plenty of evidence that shows exactly when Calvery and Reed got to the steps to the point that Iacoletti is offering infantile denial of evidence he's uncredibly ignoring...The timing of Calvery being in that spot is in dead-lock synch with a woman running in panic to the steps from Tall Woman's position...

Iacoletti never criticized the main Prayer Man nut and his claim that Stanton was down the steps on the east side of the portal...That goes against all the witnessing that places Stanton furthest back in the shadows on the landing platform...It is totally dishonest to deny that Lovelady placed Stanton over by the west wall of the portal by himself when the motorcade passed...The only people over there at the time were himself, Shelley, and Prayer Man...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Mytton on April 14, 2019, 02:10:22 AM
Quote
Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?

Based on the following two clips I'd have to say there is no way to 100% prove they are the same 3 girls, but what are the chances that the same 3 girls are filmed together twice, one with a light colored scarf with a dark top, one with light colored short hair with the horizontal curl in the same place wearing a lighter colored top and another girl with short dark hair and a dark top? Also, assuming that the darker skinned lady is not wearing pantyhose, she also appears to have darker legs.
I'd go as far to say I'm reasonably sure they are the same.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4NZ1HYcS/zapgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgmrh9bV/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 14, 2019, 05:04:28 AM
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Are you denying that the woman you're calling "Black Blob Person in Couch-Darnell is wearing a black-appearing blouse (or sweater) and a black-appearing headscarf?

No freaking idea. It?s a black blob.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 14, 2019, 05:12:57 AM
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We know the woman on the steps is Tall Woman because the short-length sweater combination with the plaid skirt shows they are the same person...

 BS:

Quote
Plus Iacoletti refuses to give a straight answer to the fact Lovelady & Shelley being seen going up the extension PROVES Darnell shows a scene that is 3 seconds after Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps...

 BS:

We don?t know that?s Lovelady and Shelley OR how long it took them to get to that position. Or even if these two people are walking together.

Quote
A smarter analyst would realize Lovelady & Shelley went up the extension exactly because of what they learned from Calvery - which is further reinforcement of what we are seeing...

Smarter analysts don?t just make things up.

Quote
Iacoletti refuses to give a straight answer to the fact this forces Calvery to be at the steps at the time of Darnell and there she is...Iacoletti also dishonestly denies that Woman In All White is strong proof that the woman is Clavery...

Woman in white tells you nothing about who black blob is.

Quote
We have plenty of evidence that shows exactly when Calvery and Reed got to the steps to the point that Iacoletti is offering infantile denial of evidence he's uncredibly ignoring...The timing of Calvery being in that spot is in dead-lock synch with a woman running in panic to the steps from Tall Woman's position...

 BS: You have no freaking clue how long it took Calvery to get back to the building.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 14, 2019, 05:16:47 AM
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Based on the following two clips I'd have to say there is no way to 100% prove they are the same 3 girls, but what are the chances that the same 3 girls are filmed together twice, one with a light colored scarf with a dark top, one with light colored short hair with the horizontal curl in the same place wearing a lighter colored top and another girl with short dark hair and a dark top?

No idea. Greater than 0%, less than 100%.

PS. What horizontal curl in the same place?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Mytton on April 14, 2019, 05:41:04 AM
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No idea. Greater than 0%, less than 100%.

PS. What horizontal curl in the same place?

Quote
No idea.

 Thumb1:

Quote
PS. What horizontal curl in the same place?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTf2c6Xz/bob.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgmrh9bV/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 14, 2019, 04:49:23 PM

Anyone who isn't playing naysaying games and getting away with it can see that dead-lock curl that is irrefutable evidence that the woman is Holt...Iacoletti is playing dishonest games and pretending his protest is sincere that we haven't proven the 3 Women in Darnell are the same 3 Women in Zapruder...Iacoletti enjoys screwing up good evidence and he is allowed to get away with it...

If we could place the real red-headed Calvery next to Holt in that image you would see a sharp difference between Calvery's red hair color and Holt's blond...

Calvery is "Tall Woman" in Zapruder...Iacoletti is just playing silly naysaying games...
 
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 14, 2019, 05:02:33 PM
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Based on the following two clips I'd have to say there is no way to 100% prove they are the same 3 girls, but what are the chances that the same 3 girls are filmed together twice, one with a light colored scarf with a dark top, one with light colored short hair with the horizontal curl in the same place wearing a lighter colored top and another girl with short dark hair and a dark top? Also, assuming that the darker skinned lady is not wearing pantyhose, she also appears to have darker legs.
I'd go as far to say I'm reasonably sure they are the same.


This isn't a credible analysis...Simmons has a visibly blue head scarf in both Zapruder and Towner...Jacob has a visibly brown jacket and white skirt...The 3 women made statements saying they went to the motorcade with each other and there they are together in Zapruder, Darnell, and Towner...The only chance that they would be different women would be if by pure chance 3 identical women in identical clothing were on the Knoll that day at that time...Since FBI would not have missed that and not have failed to track and interview those identical women we can assume a court would quickly rule we have presented adequate evidence that they are provably the same women...The only reason we are still talking about this is because the world-class liar The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger is refusing to admit Westbrook was mistaken in her 6th Floor Museum interview...Go to The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger's website and he still has Holt labeled Calvery and still has Simmons labeled Westbrook...

Iacoletti takes great joy that months have been wasted responding to his kiddie denials and naysaying...He continues to be allowed to come in to the china shop wildly swinging a denial hammer...This dishonesty is being perpetrated by Iacoletti and The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger because they are refusing to admit we have proven Calvery is on the steps in Darnell and therefore puts calibration and context to Frazier's identifying of Stanton according to Calvery's location...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 15, 2019, 04:49:51 AM
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Anyone who isn't playing naysaying games and getting away with it can see that dead-lock curl that is irrefutable evidence that the woman is Holt...

?Dead-lock curl?. LOL.

Good observation though, Mytton. I bet Doyle wishes he was skilled enough to notice that.

Quote
If we could place the real red-headed Calvery next to Holt in that image you would see a sharp difference between Calvery's red hair color and Holt's blond...

But we can?t, so you lose again.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 15, 2019, 06:17:25 AM
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?Dead-lock curl?. LOL.

Good observation though, Mytton. I bet Doyle wishes he was skilled enough to notice that.

But we can?t, so you lose again.


I posted that a long time ago...I was the first to post that there was an identical hair curl on Holt in both Darnell and Zapruder...I must have missed where you answered to the evidence since it proves what we are saying...Your response is grammatically illiterate...We can't what?...

Must have missed your reply in the Hackerott post that proves us correct beyond a doubt on Jacob, Holt, and Simmons Iacoletti...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 04:16:59 AM
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I posted that a long time ago...I was the first to post that there was an identical hair curl on Holt in both Darnell and Zapruder...

Sure you did, Doyle. And then your ?enemies? deleted it to make you look bad.  :D

Quote
Must have missed your reply in the Hackerott post that proves us correct beyond a doubt on Jacob, Holt, and Simmons Iacoletti...

What Hackerott post that proves you correct beyond a doubt?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 02, 2019, 09:31:49 PM
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Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTf2c6Xz/bob.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgmrh9bV/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM

My take is that what is seen top left (Zfilm), and bottom left (Dfilm?), left to right is StellaJacobImage, GloriaHoltImage, and SharonSimmonsImage. And, should anyone wish to claim otherwise, if reliable provable indisputable evidence can be presented prior to midnight CST on 5/16/'19 that said LadyImages represent someone else, I will post on this thread no more forever, nor dispute said identities on any thread on this Forum, provided that anyone that wishes to claim otherwise makes a similar commitment prior to midnight CST on 5/9/'19.

In any event, the said 3 LadyImages worked in the near-by TSBD Bldg, and simply went outside during lunchtime to view the passing Motorcade, and found a nice spot along the Elm St curb/sidewalk to do so. Unfortunately, they were among other eyewitnesses to the murder of PresidentKennedy.

Re-posted due to original removal.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2019, 10:04:57 PM
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My take is that what is seen top left (Zfilm), and bottom left (Dfilm?), left to right, is StellaJacobImage, GloriaHoltImage, and SharonSimmonsImage. And, should anyone wish to claim otherwise, if reliable provable indisputable evidence can be presented prior to midnight on 5/16/'19 that said LadyImages represent someone else, I will post on this thread no more forever, nor dispute said identities on any thread on this Forum, provided that anyone that wishes to claim otherwise makes a similar commitment prior to midnight CST on 5/9/'19.

So where's your "provable indisputable evidence" that said "LadyImages" in Zapruder are "StellaJacobImage, GloriaHoltImage, and SharonSimmonsImage"?  Or is that not necessary when it's your "take"?

Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 12:09:35 AM
No serious poster denies that we have proven the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and NOT Westbrook and Calvery as Karen Westbrook erroneously indicated...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 03, 2019, 04:09:28 AM
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No serious poster denies that we have proven the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and NOT Westbrook and Calvery as Karen Westbrook erroneously indicated...

I just recently watched the SixthFloorMuseum interview of KarenWestbrookScranton again, and I continue to believe her to be a gracious and sincere person. However, I also believe her memory has failed her somewhat, and I dare not say mine could be any better. Especially concerning the specific real-life events occurring around her in the time frame being discussed. I certainly do not remember everything in the JFK Sr Motorcade I witnessed, and from as close to the passing Limousine as any of the DealeyPlaza Elm St occupants were.

But, I did notice something during my re-viewing the video at about the 19 minute mark that sparked my interest, as just after discussing the ZapruderFilm frame and her comment of identification, the Willis5 Photograph was displayed. And, when Mr Fagin pointed out her Image from the front and with a better view of the dark coat, KarenWestbrookScranton seemed to have a puzzled look on her face when she was back on camera after observing Willis5.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 04:44:37 AM

Not a word about Calvery running back to the Depository...There's something weird going on here...She should have been asked if Carol Reed was to her right in all white?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 03, 2019, 05:35:55 AM
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Not a word about Calvery running back to the Depository...There's something weird going on here...She should have been asked if Carol Reed was to her right in all white?

Dear Brian,

Don't get all paranoid on us, now.

-- MWT   :)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on May 03, 2019, 08:51:47 AM
Yes, Tom, you've proven it. I even posted a color photo marked with yellow lines showing the blue head-scarf woman and her friends from across the street like the Z film and like the photo of them up on the hill and also in the crying and gesturing film clip. It's the same three women.

And yes, from all appearances, it appears to be the heavy set woman with the patterned dress (Calvary) in Z is most probably the same woman up on the steps talking to Lovelady after the shooting.

But now what? The mystery person up in the vestibule is NOT a 400 lb. female. And it may, or may not, be Oswald.

And yes, the "P. parade" Hosty note corroborates independently with Fritz's "out front" notes. So it appears LHO was somewhere "out front [during the P. parade...]" but it may or may not mean the mystery person is Oswald.

Now, you'll either go into crank mode ["get lost"] or ignore mode, not even willing to debate the big picture here without reverting back to your fixation on these xxxx-ing photos. So what's it going to be? If you'd open your mind here a little bit, you'd at least try to debate this. But my hunch tells me you're probably a Kennedy hater so, therefore, you "...just don't see how this big convoluted conspiracy could have possibly happened..."

Oswald had no real motivation to pull off this crime. Yes, the good book tries to paint him as the angry loner ex-defector. But there he was in the police station wearing his USMC ring. You'd think someone who hates the American way of life would pitch that ring in the Trinity River. And you'd think that after returning to America from Russia, he'd say "xxxx you" and not pay off his State Department loan. But he didn't chuck the ring and he did pay off the loan.

So now what? Back to the fixation?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on May 03, 2019, 12:57:33 PM
So what this all boils down to for you is:

1. You want to prove the identities of these three female bystanders so folks who've mislabeled them are wrong.
2. You don't care about the assassination itself.

Got it.

Your "I despise them" list is quite interesting. It looks like there's quite a few Freudian slips in there, which kinda sorta proves my Kennedy point.

But I'll digress as well.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 01:28:51 PM
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Dear Brian,

Don't get all paranoid on us, now.


 It's just good detective work and she should have been asked...We know Calvery ran back and we know Holt stayed with Simmons...I e-mailed Westbrook all this evidence and she never responded so there is something wrong with her and she doesn't intend to correct her mistake...

Calvery is talking to Molina on the steps...It can't be Lovelady because he's already been proven to be on the extension by Larsen who then dishonestly tried to deny he matched the bar pattern on Lovelady's shirt to the man on the extension...JFK internet research is almost useless due to the juvenile tendency for researchers to back their own theories no matter what they are shown...

I also consider your cutesy pokes annoying...
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 02:24:19 PM
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... What Frazier said about his and a "Sarah's" turning towards each other on the steps upon hearing what a "running up, crying gal" (whom Lovelady intimated was Gloria Calvery) said, and the fact that, by comparing the Weigman film with the Darnell film, we can see by their different orientations that Frazier and Prayer Person did turn towards each other at some point during the gap in the Weigman-Darnell coverage of the TSBD Steps Scene, and the fact that that is Gloria Calvery (who had a very good view of JFK's exploding head) talking with a man (Lovelady? Molina?) on the lower steps in Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot, and the fact that Andrej Stancak has unwittingly proved that Prayer Person couldn't possibly be 5' 9.5" Lee Harvey Oswald, and the fact that Chris Davidson has, by adjusting the contrast, etc, in a particularly clear Weigman frame, come up with a plausibly female visage for Prayer Person,

... etc, etc, etc, ...

... Well, all of the above leads ME to believe that Prayer Person is Frazier's "Sarah", so I suppose that means TSBD "old hand," Sarah Stanton.


This is all that needs to be said...It's denial needs to be established as uncredible and those who insist on ignoring this provably correct evidence are the ones who need to be moderated and correctly classified in the uncredible category they have placed themselves and it shouldn't take years to do it...

When you post this correct evidence of Sarah turning from Wiegman to Darnell and therefore conforming exactly to what Frazier described Sarah as doing, and at the time he described, it gets ignored and then the ignore-ers pop up later claiming you have failed to provide evidence while they re-enter their already-disproven claims...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2019, 02:26:53 PM
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No serious poster denies that we have proven the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and NOT Westbrook and Calvery as Karen Westbrook erroneously indicated...

?Serious poster? is Doyle-speak for ?agrees with me?.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2019, 02:29:16 PM
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KarenWestbrookScranton seemed to have a puzzled look on her face when she was back on camera after observing Willis5.

Confirmation bias is a wonderful thing...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2019, 02:43:30 PM
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It's just good detective work and she should have been asked...We know Calvery ran back and we know Holt stayed with Simmons...I e-mailed Westbrook all this evidence and she never responded so there is something wrong with her and she doesn't intend to correct her mistake...

?evidence?. LOL

Maybe what?s ?wrong? with her is that she doesn?t appreciate her privacy being violated by an Internet crank with an agenda calling her a l-i-a-r.

Quote
Calvery is talking to Molina on the steps...It can't be Lovelady because he's already been proven to be on the extension by Larsen who then dishonestly tried to deny he matched the bar pattern on Lovelady's shirt to the man on the extension...

Larsen never matched anything. And neither did anyone else. You made it up.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 03, 2019, 03:16:22 PM
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Not a word about Calvery running back to the Depository...There's something weird going on here...She should have been asked if Carol Reed was to her right in all white?

During my recent re-viewing of KarenWestbrookScranton's SixthFloorMuseum interview video, and I did not notice previously, I noticed that KWS indicated that she recalled that the SecondFloorLunchRoom door was always open at the time of her employment.

My take continues to be that in DarnellFilm, GloriaCalveryImage is entering the stairway behind KarenWestbrookImage. Again, simply My take, and no claim of proven.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 03:57:37 PM

There's something wrong with her if she doesn't respond to the correct evidence...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on May 03, 2019, 04:02:47 PM
I'll just say this about witness testimony. If you ask any seasoned detective out there, they'll say that testimony is not always reliable. This doesn't mean that you should dismiss everything out of hand. At the same time, these people were NOT standing around catching every breath and step they were taking when this happened. NO ONE down there knew this was going to happen.

What's more important is how the lawyers massaged the testimony or asked questions that enabled people to give the answers they want. So I find it interesting that BL never was able to continue to describe who was around him. It seems as if he was cut off when the lawyer was asking him who was out there.

The same thing for the Perry testimony. Dulles himself totally interjects and interrupts Perry's testimony. It was disgraceful how these people did this.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 04:08:17 PM

The main point is being evaded here...There's zero doubt the 3 Women in Zapruder are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...They are the same 3 Women seen in Towner and Darnell...

That means Tall Woman is Calvery and is the woman on the steps in the Darnell film of the front steps 25-30 seconds after the last shot...

Once you calibrate this to Frazier's statements it proves Frazier is talking to Sarah Stanton when he is looking at Prayer Man in that same clip...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2019, 04:19:49 PM
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There's something wrong with her if she doesn't respond to the correct evidence...

Arrogance doesn?t constitute ?correct evidence?.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2019, 04:21:36 PM
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The main point is being evaded here...There's zero doubt the 3 Women in Zapruder are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...They are the same 3 Women seen in Towner and Darnell...

There?s more to demonstrating ?zero doubt? than just claiming it over and over.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 03, 2019, 04:26:48 PM

Somebody is trying too hard to deny the truth...But people can see it is he who offers nothing...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2019, 04:36:47 PM
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Somebody is trying too hard to deny the truth...But people can see it is he who offers nothing...

So much for not reading my posts. You can?t even tell the truth about that. Is there anything you won?t lie about?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 04, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
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Somebody is trying too hard to deny the truth...But people can see it is he who offers nothing...

I do continue to believe that all evidence has factors that should be weighed, and despite the denials/disputes, the identity indicative evidence that StellaJacob, Gloria(Jeanne)Holt, and SharonSimmons(Nelson) represent the 3 LadyImages that appear to be standing along the Elm St curb/sidewalk near and/or slightly east of the StemmonsFreewaySign as seen on Zfilm and Betzner3Photo as the JFK Assassination occurred, has been factor weighed and vetted.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 04, 2019, 10:43:02 PM
Yes, Larry, we know that?s what you believe.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 04, 2019, 11:05:15 PM
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No serious poster denies that we have proven the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and NOT Westbrook and Calvery as Karen Westbrook erroneously indicated...

I suppose some very worthwhile research would be locating someone, like a relative or close friend, that could positively confirm identity of SharonSimmons/Nelson, as well as GloriaJeanneHolt along with StellaMaeJacob among the LadyImages viewing the JFK Motorcade in DealeyPlaza, as can be seen in ZapruderFilm and Betzner3Photo. However, it appears quite likely that the Willis5Photo just may be the best frontal view of the blue head scarf attired and dark coat wearing LadyImage nearest the StemmonsFreewaySign in said Photos/Films.

Certainly, as KarenWestbrookScranton stated on the SFM interview video as having heard shots from the rear, in my opinion, would place her farther east and looking more south for the sound to also originate from the TSBD Bldg. Just my take.

Edited for clarity.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 05, 2019, 02:18:07 AM
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Certainly, as KarenWestbrookScranton stated on the SFM interview video as having heard shots from the rear, in my opinion, would place her farther east and looking more south for the sound to also originate from the TSBD Bldg. Just my take.

Who says the shots she heard originated from the TSBD building?
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 05, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
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I suppose some very worthwhile research would locating someone that could positively identify SharonSimmons/Nelson, as well as GloriaJeanneHolt along with StellaMaeJacob among the LadyImages viewing the JFK Motorcade in DealeyPlaza, as can be seen in ZapruderFilm and Betzner3Photo. However, it appears quite likely that the Willis5Photo just may be the best frontal view of the blue head scarf attired and dark coat wearing LadyImage nearest the StemmonsFreewaySign in said Photos/Films.
Certainly, as KarenWestbrookScranton stated on the SFM interview video as having heard shots from the rear, in my opinion, would place her farther east and looking more south for the sound to also originate from the TSBD Bldg. Just my take.


Westbrook doesn't respond to e-mails or phone calls asking her to correct this...

She isn't credible...

She's calling Simmons herself...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 05, 2019, 04:41:15 PM
?Credible? is Doyle-speak for ?agrees with Doyle?.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 06, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
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?Credible? is Doyle-speak for ?agrees with Doyle?.

Don't pay any attention to him, Brian.

Iacoletti's so mixed up, in the Towner film he can't even tell Stella Mae Jacob's and Gloria Holt's skirts, or Sharon Simmon's raincoat, from really, really long boardshorts, or really, really high, flesh-colored boots ... gasp ... on a couple of DUDES!

LOL

-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 06, 2019, 01:50:15 PM
Get a grip, Tommy. Stating your obsessive opinion over and over doesn?t turn it into a fact. Also, get a life. I?m never going to agree with you unless you come up with something better than ?duh....look the same to me!?
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 06, 2019, 03:19:57 PM
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Don't pay any attention to him, Brian.

Iacoletti's so mixed up, in the Towner film he can't even tell Stella Mae Jacob's and Gloria Holt's skirts, or Sharon Simmon's raincoat, from really, really long boardshorts, or really, really high, flesh-colored boots ... gasp ... on a couple of DUDES!

LOL

-- MWT   ;)


He's the only person on the internet, as far as I can tell, who doubts the already-proven identification of the 3 Women in Zapruder as being Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

They are the same 3 Women seen in Towner and Darnell still together on the Knoll...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 06, 2019, 05:49:45 PM
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He's the only person on the internet, as far as I can tell, who doubts the already-proven identification of the 3 Women in Zapruder as being Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

The poll on Denis? Facebook group is 8-5 against, with 2 more asking where?s the evidence. The poll here in this very thread is 5-3 for, with 1 more asking where?s the proof.

Why do you pathologically lie?

Quote
They are the same 3 Women seen in Towner and Darnell still together on the Knoll...

So you keep claiming.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 07, 2019, 04:02:32 AM
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The poll on Denis? Facebook group is 8-5 against, with 2 more asking where?s the evidence. The poll here in this very thread is 5-3 for, with 1 more asking where?s the proof.

Iacoletti,

Those eight or so people who haven't seen the light yet are either:

1) virtually blind illiterates,

2)  gullibles who've been irrationally swayed by your mesmerizing personality (got your new potentized crystals and magnets, yet?)

3) are dedicated Brian Doyle despisers (very likely, actually)

4)  gasp ... dyed-in-the-wool Tommy Haters (like Michael "Mike" Clark; where'd he go, btw?  -- he even deleted his FB account!)

5) "Deep Staters" who are frantically desperate to believe, with all their pea-pickin' little hearts, that ... gasp ... Prayer Person is innocent, innocent, innocent Lee Harvey Oswald!

LOL

Why don't you ask them if they agree with Westbrook that the dark-complected gal on the left in the Zapeuder film trio is "probably (light-skinned) Carol Reed"?

Frame 60: https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z060.jpg

Do any of the young women in the Southwestern Publishing Company Christmas photos, below, look particularly dark-complected to you, Iacoletti?

(According to Denis Moricet and a JFK "photo analyst" you're on record as respecting very highly -- Linda Giovanni-Zambanini -- that's Carol Reed wearing the black dress with the white sleeves.)

Not particularly dark-skinned, is she?

Iacoletti?

https://emuseum.jfk.org/search/karen

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 07, 2019, 01:48:23 PM


Like Tommy said...None of those people defend their choice in intelligent analysis because they are only capable of taunting one-liners...

Moricet stated that the 3 Women were all the same in all 3 films...

The poll voters do not intelligently answer the proof that Calvery is the woman on the steps and is Tall Woman...That makes them uncredible...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 07, 2019, 03:47:58 PM
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Those eight or so people who haven't seen the light yet are either:

Yeah, the problem is always with somebody other than you.

 :D
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 07, 2019, 03:50:31 PM
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The poll voters do not intelligently answer the proof that Calvery is the woman on the steps and is Tall Woman...That makes them uncredible...

So much for your claim that I am the "only person on the Internet" who doubts your identification.  You're pathological.

P.S. there is no proof that Calvery is the woman on the steps.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on May 08, 2019, 12:19:45 AM
Tom, what more is there to say? Some people will say your three women are the same...others won't. Big deal. It still doesn't do anything to further the JFK case.

You might want to open your mind a little here and look past the issue of are three women standing down on the street the same three women seen elsewhere. I encourage you to read State Secret and then if you know how to stream video (you don't know how to post pictures here so I'm assuming you may not know how to stream), take the time to watch The Untold History of the US JFK To the Brink.

UPDATE - since you're not good with fiddling with knobs, switches, and levers, I took the time and found it for you free. See how nice I am?


Take the time to watch it.  Learn something new. You'll see that JFK was doomed from pretty much the get-go. Nobody in the Foggy Bottom/Capitol Hill axis liked him. This makes a helluva lot more sense than your nutty "The Ruskies Did It." The biggest problem is he didn't take himself seriously.  Meaning he was very well-meaning but his disarming nature made him very popular with America, more than enough IMO to win the '64 election.

But that was not going to happen and they put a plan in place to make it happen. But NOT the Ruskies.

PS - the above video was about one person and made by another person on your "Tom Despises" list - LOL.

PPS - no matter what you think of Stone, the above video is one of the more honest portrayals of JFK IMO. Which I'm sure drives another person on your "Tom Despises" list crazy - JDeE.

John Boy
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 08, 2019, 02:01:48 AM
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Tom, what more is there to say? Some people will say your three women are the same...others won't. Big deal. It still doesn't do anything to further the JFK case.

You might want to open your mind a little here and look past the issue of are three women standing down on the street the same three women seen elsewhere. I encourage you to read State Secret and then if you know how to stream video (you don't know how to post pictures here so I'm assuming you may not know how to stream), take the time to watch The Untold History of the US JFK To the Brink.

UPDATE - since you're not good with fiddling with knobs, switches, and levers, I took the time and found it for you free. See how nice I am?


Take the time to watch it.  Learn something new. You'll see that JFK was doomed from pretty much the get-go. Nobody in the Foggy Bottom/Capitol Hill axis liked him. This makes a helluva lot more sense than your nutty "The Ruskies Did It." The biggest problem is he didn't take himself seriously.  Meaning he was very well-meaning but his disarming nature made him very popular with America, more than enough IMO to win the '64 election.

But that was not going to happen and they put a plan in place to make it happen. But NOT the Ruskies.

PS - the above video was about one person and made by another person on your "Tom Despises" list - LOL.

PPS - no matter what you think of Stone, the above video is one of the more honest portrayals of JFK IMO. Which I'm sure drives another person on your "Tom Despises" list crazy - JDeE.

John Boy

Dear J.B.,

I encourage you to realize that a few months ago the author of "State Secret" congratulated me in a FB private message for having intuited (correctly, in his opinion) that the Soviet triple-agent, "Byetkov*?", who was giving CIA misleading information about a putative Oswald in Mexico City, was none other than the Soviet Embassy "security guard" who volunteered the radioactive name Kostikov to an Oswald impersonator over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line on 10/02/63 -- Ivan Obyedkov (pronounced ah-bee-ED-cough).

Obyedkov's doing so (in concert with the over-the-phone Oswald impersonator whom I believe to have been KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov -- see below) thereby planted a Khrushchev and Castro cover up-inducing, reverse John Newman-like WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file.

And you should also realize the Simpich himself is fallible in his theorizing and his "facts".  For example, in Chapter 6 he conflates Angleton's "Byetkov*?" with a 1967 triple-agent by the name of Boris Orekhov (FBI's beloved SHAMROCK, whose name wasn't revealed until NARA's late 2017 release of docs) ...

https://amp-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1018691001?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F2018%2F01%2F10%2Fjfk-files-kgb-had-trusted-relationship-longtime-warren-commission-critic-mark-lane%2F1018691001%2F

... and in Chapter 5 he perpetuates Senator Schwarz's June 19, 1975 Church Committee mistake when he (Schwarz) says that a photograph of Leonov (Hint: The Blond Oswald In Mexico City) was "found in the pocket of Oswald when he was arrested in Mexico CIty," when in reality Oswald was never arrested in Mexico City (and probably was never even there), and what Schwarz meant to say was that Leonov's calling card was found in Fidel Castro's notebook when he and Che Guevara were arrested in Mexico City in 1956.

Etc, etc, etc ...

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Walton on May 08, 2019, 08:27:24 AM
There's always going to be a lot of intrigue and incorrect assumptions in this case, Tom. The reason is simply because although there's been a lot of "smoke" revealed in this case, we still lack the "smoking gun." The bloody gloves so to speak like the Simpson case had.

Kennedy himself knew this could happen as mentioned in the video. Did you watch the video? He and Khrushchev both admitted to each other on the backroom phone that there was more than just themselves when running their respective governments.

As you said above, Oswald was most probably never in Mexico. The groundwork had already been laid for him to take the fall on 11/22.

It's much easier to get people to lie and (under oath if needed) than to have their mark physically be someplace, which is why one of the most secure places never revealed a single photo of LHO down there.

During the supposed dates when he was never there, he'd soon be eased into the TSBD job. How in the world could the old Ruskies ever be able to pull something like this off? Sorry Tom but there has to be some real-world plausibility here, some "could it have really happened that way" (e.g., the Ruskies easing their mark into a job where the president would be driving by a month later).

There isn't, which is also why the Ruskies Did It falls apart further when you start getting into the "Oswald was a trained assassin" nonsense. Listen to him in the hall; look at the photos of him outside of the theater when arrested; listen to the midnight press conference; look at the clip of him (52:53 in the above video) after his arrest; watch the short Xmas clip of him with Marina at his brother's house one year before 11/22 - this was no "La Femme Nikita" trained assassin, Tom.

How in the world could the old Ruskies have somehow - in some way - have gotten Ruby to silence him? It's implausible, Tom. Watch the Oswald murder - I guess the Ruskies got Fritz to break the protective ring around him as Fritz, looking like he's got a very bad headache, looked away, nary a care as Oswald is gunned down?

LOL
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 08, 2019, 12:42:43 PM
The on-topic here is the 3 Women seen in Zapruder that Karen Westbrook told Stephen Fagin was herself and Gloria Calvery...We have reasonably proven that they were actually Sharon Simmons, Gloria Holt, and Stella Mae Jacob...

This in turn proves that Tall Woman is Calvery and therefore Calvery is seen on the steps in Darnell...

Which in turn proves that Frazier is looking at Sarah Stanton when he was seen looking at Prayer Man in Darnell...

I don't consider the opposition to this serious or credible...Anybody who doesn't see right away that Davidson's enhancement shows a female isn't qualified for participation or having their opinion considered seriously...And people who are pretending they don't see this for dubious purposes shouldn't be taken seriously or given equal par...

The opposition on this is mostly based on a mob-like majority that has taken over the internet and rules it according to their corrupted will and is willing to destroy the entire credibility of the JFK research community in order to have their way and maintain dominance...They just don't want to admit they backed a bogus theory and are ignoring the evidence that proves it...

The other forum has an incentive for aggressive moderation and banning because the less number of active members the lower the monthly cost...It has become a small den of popularity club insiders that do not aspire to credible objective research or evidence standards...So not only do they protect the insiders by banning those with the correct evidence but they save money in the process...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 08, 2019, 01:39:56 PM
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The on-topic here is the 3 Women seen in Zapruder that Karen Westbrook told Stephen Fagin was herself and Gloria Calvery...We have reasonably proven that they were actually Sharon Simmons, Gloria Holt, and Stella Mae Jacob...

You haven?t proven squat.

Quote
This in turn proves that Tall Woman is Calvery and therefore Calvery is seen on the steps in Darnell...

No, the identity of the 3 women tells you nothing about ?tall woman?.

Quote
Which in turn proves that Frazier is looking at Sarah Stanton when he was seen looking at Prayer Man in Darnell...

No, the identities of spectators on Elm during Zapruder tell you nothing about where the faceless-Frazier-blob is looking in Darnell, or who prayer person is.

Quote
I don't consider the opposition to this serious or credible...

Of course you don?t. And that?s utterly meaningless.

Quote
Anybody who doesn't see right away that Davidson's enhancement shows a female isn't qualified for participation or having their opinion considered seriously...

Anybody who makes over 400 false or fabricated claims about the evidence isn't qualified for participation or having his opinion considered seriously...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 09, 2019, 09:42:18 AM
Iacoletti wrote:

The poll on Denis? Facebook group is 8-5 against, with 2 more asking where?s the evidence. The poll here in this very thread is 5-3 for, with 1 more asking where?s the proof.

My reply:

Iacoletti,

Those eight or so people who claim they can't see that the three women on the Pergola Patio in Towner are the same three women who are standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder are either:

1) virtually blind

2) illiterates

3)  gullibles who've been irrationally swayed by your mesmerizing personality (got your new potentized crystals and magnets from Amazon, yet?)

4) are dedicated Brian Doyle despisers (very likely, actually)

5)  gasp ... dyed-in-the-wool Tommy Haters (like Michael "Mike" Clark; where'd he go, btw?  -- he even deleted his FB account!)

6) "Deep Staters" who are frantically desperate to believe, with all their pea-pickin' little hearts, that ... gasp ... Prayer Person is innocent, innocent, innocent Lee Harvey Oswald!

LOL

Why don't you ask them if they agree with Westbrook that the dark-complected gal on the left in the Zapruder film trio is "uhh ... probably Carol Reed"?

Frame 60:(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z060.jpg)

Do any of the young women in the Southwestern Publishing Company Christmas photos, below, look particularly dark-complected to you, Iacoletti?

(According to Denis Moricet and a JFK "photo analyst" you're on record as respecting very highly -- Linda Giovanni-Zambanini -- that's Carol Reed wearing the black dress with the white sleeves.)

Not particularly dark-skinned, is she?

Iacoletti?

https://emuseum.jfk.org/search/karen

-- MWT   ;)

edited and bumped

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 09, 2019, 01:19:17 PM
Iacoletti poses as a strict evidence-demander but polls are the lowest form of evidence...The people he is crediting with offering a credible opinion on the subject are persons who don't (or more likely can't) offer any intelligent reasoning for their choice...The reason they make polls and participate in them is exactly because they can't offer anything credible in the way of normal discussion of evidence...A few years ago there was a poll on the Education Forum where the pro Prayer Man posters overwhelmingly voted in favor of Prayer Man being Oswald...When I posted evidence proving Prayer Man was Sarah Stanton I was attacked and had my back ridden by a biased moderator who was friends with the Prayer Man posters and was then banned under the false charge of being too insulting and undisciplined...Polls are the means by which the unskilled and dishonest bypass good research in order to have their way...And don't forget those people assemble under the assumption that they protest truth tellers being unfairly denied the ability to present truth to power...What hypocrites...Once you ban or block a person whose truths you don't want to admit you're done...It doesn't matter if you get a majority of dishonest people to go along with it...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 09, 2019, 07:31:16 PM
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Iacoletti poses as a strict evidence-demander but polls are the lowest form of evidence...

You claimed that I am the only person on the Internet who disputes your opinion.  The polls show that this is yet another Doyle lie.  You're pathological.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 09, 2019, 07:33:42 PM
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edited and bumped

You already posted that, Tommy.  Is repetition supposed to help?  Yes, we know that you think anyone who dares to disagree with you is either stupid or blind.  Sadly, that's not a compelling argument for your position.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 09, 2019, 10:16:47 PM
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You already posted that, Tommy.  Is repetition supposed to help?  Yes, we know that you think anyone who dares to disagree with you is either stupid or blind.  Sadly, that's not a compelling argument for your position.

Iacoletti,

It's too bad you can't refute the fact that the gal on the left in the Zapruder Trio was dark-complected.

See Z-Frame 60 (and others around it), above.

Isn't it interesting that the back of the man's neck is so much lighter than the side of the face of self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob (Westbrook's "uhh ... probably Carol Reed")?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 11, 2019, 12:12:06 AM
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It's too bad you can't refute the fact that the gal on the left in the Zapruder Trio was dark-complected.

It's too bad that you can't tell the difference between your subjective opinions and fact.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 11, 2019, 02:42:03 AM
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It's too bad that you can't tell the difference between your subjective opinions and fact.

You don't think the woman on the left in The Zapruder Trio has got darker skin than the woman in the yellowish dress, than the man in the suit, and than the guy next to him

(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z060.jpg)

LOL



Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 11, 2019, 04:45:56 AM
Iacoletti wrote:

It's too bad that you can't tell the difference between your subjective opinions and fact.

Iacoletti,

You don't think the woman on the left in The Zapruder Trio has got darker skin than the man in the suit, and the guy next to him
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z060.jpg

Do you think lilly-white real-deal Carol Reed was that dark-complected?

Do you think Z-Frame 60 and a few around it were "over saturated" color-wise only on the side of that gal's face?

Really?

(LOL)

-- MWT  :)

PS  That the best you got?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Michael Clark on May 13, 2019, 06:22:33 PM
(like Michael "Mike" Clark; where'd he go, btw?  -- he even deleted his FB account!)

LOL

No I didn?t. I just blocked you.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 13, 2019, 08:08:59 PM
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(like Michael "Mike" Clark; where'd he go, btw?  -- he even deleted his FB account!)

LOL

No I didn?t. I just blocked you.

Glad to hear that Michael/Mike.

You still kneeling at the feet of James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the EF?

Paz still takin' it up the you-know-what?

-- Tommy   :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 13, 2019, 11:32:15 PM


Michael took some swipes at me on the other forum but never directly debated the evidence over here...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 14, 2019, 08:56:46 AM
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Michael took some swipes at me on the other forum but never directly debated the evidence over here...

Yeah, this Michael Clark is the guy who, in concert with Paz Marverde, covered up as quickly as he could all of my pro-Angleton and pro-Bagley posts at the EF with his own short and inane "cover up" posts, or with brainwashed / deceived-by-KGB anti-Angleton and anti-Bagley articles by people in the CIA.

Michael Clark, having not read Bagley's 2007 book Spy Wars or even his 35-page PDF follow-up Ghosts of the Spy Wars, eats the following kind of misinformed, pro-Nosenko, anti-Golitsyn, anti-Angleton, anti-Bagley propaganda (by possible mole in CIA's Soviet Russia Division, John L. Hart) up, boy:

Google: Monster Plot Golitsyn

.....

And then read this if you want to know the truth

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2018/nov/14/cia-hsca-monster-plot-edit/

And/or this:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

And/or google this early (1987, and therefore only partially well-informed) PDF:

"Nosenko: Five Paths To Judgment"

Excerpt: "But [in "The Monster Plot," aka "The Hart Report"] Hart did not really answer the arguments of those who claimed Nosenko was dispatched by the KGB. Hart believed that those initially responsible for the Nosenko case [Bagley, Kisevalter, Angelton] were so thoroughly discredited by the way they handled it that it was unnecessary to answer their arguments in any detail."

LOL!

John L. Hart was Michael Clark's kinda guy!

- MWT  :)





Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 14, 2019, 01:34:33 PM
Michael was reading my Prayer Man evidence but the substance of it never quite made it back to the other forum when he posted there...I find that intellectually untruthful...I also find blocking and banning to be less than intellectually truthful...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 17, 2019, 08:21:21 PM
Yes, we have, 6 7-3-1.

Iacoletti, who can only see blobs and who has a really hard time distinguishing women from men, voted "no," of course, and, given the fact that Doyle is so xxxxxxx obnoxious, two people also decided to vote "no," leaving just one other cognitive dissonance-wracked person who chickened out and effectively voted ... "maybe".

-- MWT  :)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 17, 2019, 08:44:04 PM

Time to admit Molina is the guy on the steps Graves...Not Lovelady...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 28, 2019, 10:40:36 PM
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Yes, we have, 6-3-1.

Iacoletti, who can only see blobs and who has a really hard time distinguishing women from men, voted "no," of course, and, given the fact that Doyle is so xxxxxxx obnoxious, two people also decided to vote "no," leaving just one other cognitive dissonance-wracked person who chickened out and effectively voted ... "maybe".

Graves, true-to-form, has a fall-on-the-ground-feet-kicking-toddler temper tantrum whenever anyone dares to disagree with his sweeping pronouncements and therefore if there is any disagreement then the problem must be with the other person.  By definition.

This is what's known as delusions of grandeur.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 29, 2019, 02:59:55 AM
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Graves, true-to-form, has a fall-on-the-ground-feet-kicking-toddler temper tantrum whenever anyone dares to disagree with his sweeping pronouncements and therefore if there is any disagreement then the problem must be with the other person.  By definition.

This is what's known as delusions of grandeur.

Iacoletti,

In a recent poll on another part of this forum, seven members said the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film are women nobody said that they are men, and only one person (you, I presume) said, "It's impossible to say".

Care to comment?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 29, 2019, 05:27:33 PM
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Iacoletti,

In a recent poll on another part of this forum, seven members said the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film are women nobody said that they are men, and only one person (you, I presume) said, "It's impossible to say".

Care to comment?

-- MWT   ;)

As I keep asking, on what basis did you decide that they are women?  Just because you want them to be Jacob, Holt, and Simmons?  Because you squinted really hard and pretended like you actually see any distinguishing features?  I care a lot less about what people believe than I do about why they believe it.  But now you suddenly care about poll results, after dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as blind or crazy?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 29, 2019, 08:51:22 PM
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As I keep asking, on what basis did you decide that they are women?  Just because you want them to be Jacob, Holt, and Simmons?  Because you squinted really hard and pretended like you actually see any distinguishing features?  I care a lot less about what people believe than I do about why they believe it.  But now you suddenly care about poll results, after dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as blind or crazy?

Iacoletti,

Do you still believe the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Tina Towner film might be men?

-- MWT   ;)


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 29, 2019, 09:13:08 PM
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Do you still believe the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Tina Towner film might be men?

What makes you think these indistinct blobs are women?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 01:22:44 AM
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What makes you think these indistinct blobs (the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Tina Towner film) are women?

Iacoletti,

The same thing that probably convinced six other members (in my recent poll in another part of the forum) that they're women -- the fact that their legs are bare from roughly the knee, down.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 30, 2019, 03:27:37 PM
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The same thing that probably convinced six other members (in my recent poll in another part of the forum) that they're women -- the fact that their legs are bare from roughly the knee, down.

Well, if that doesn't scream "women", then I don't know what does.

(https://www.clydefitchreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/shorts-trend-ft.jpg)

P.S. why do you presume to speak for other people's reasons?

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 07:30:13 PM
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Well, if that doesn't scream "women", then I don't know what does.

(https://www.clydefitchreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/shorts-trend-ft.jpg)

P.S. why do you presume to speak for other people's reasons?

On a cool, blustery day in late November 1963 in conservative Dallas, Texas -- a day on which many people watching the motorcade were wearing raincoats and several were even carrying umbrellas?

LOL!

-- MWT   ;)
 
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 30, 2019, 08:11:34 PM

Thomas do you believe that Iacoletti can't see the obvious features like the blue scarf, brown coat and white skirt, and bare legs like everyone else?...

Do you believe Iacoletti is being sincere when he says he can't see these features on the 3 Women?

Is it time to ignore a clearly disingenuous obnoxious contrarian?...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 08:44:45 PM
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Thomas do you believe that Iacoletti can't see the obvious features like the blue scarf, brown coat and white skirt, and bare legs like everyone else?...

Do you believe Iacoletti is being sincere when he says he can't see these features on the 3 Women?

Is it time to ignore a clearly disingenuous obnoxious contrarian?...

Brian,

Yes, I truly do.

Due, no doubt, to over-the-top ritualistic Onanism with his dress-wearing male friend on full-moon nights in the vegetable garden.

Probably explains all those warts on his left hand, too.

-- MWT   :D
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 30, 2019, 09:24:09 PM
The problem with the creative interpretation of indistinct blobs is that they can be whatever you imagine them to be: "women's legs", a "scarf", a "brown coat", a "plaid skirt", a "badgeman", or "Sarah Stanton".
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 30, 2019, 09:37:55 PM

Time to ignore Iacoletti...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 30, 2019, 09:45:32 PM
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Time to ignore Iacoletti...

Yeah, what is this -- the thousandth time you've started "ignoring" me?  That's ok -- ignoring me won't make your 404 fabrications, fallacies, and falsehoods go away.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 10:19:29 PM
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Time to ignore Iacoletti...

You go first.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 10:53:28 PM
Iacoletti,

If the three people on the Pergola Patio in Towner are, as you suggest, men, then they must have been wearing extra-long, knee-length board shorts (with their long-sleeve upper garments!).

Had board shorts already been invented by 1963?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 30, 2019, 10:57:32 PM
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Iacoletti,

If the three people on the Pergola Patio in Towner are, as you suggest, men, then they must have been wearing extra-long, knee-length board shorts (with their long-sleeve upper garments!).

I didn't suggest they are men.  They're indistinct blobs, remember?  You're the one making assumptions about what and who they are.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
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I didn't suggest they are men.  They're indistinct blobs, remember?  You're the one making assumptions about what and who they are.

Iacoletti,

Don't you remember asking me how I knew they were women, not to mention three specific women: Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons?

If they weren't women, what were they?

Three hermaphrodites?

Are you claiming now that they weren't human beings, just mobile verticle "blobs"?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 30, 2019, 11:53:00 PM
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If they weren't women, what were they?

Indistinct blobs that you and Doyle are Rorschaching.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 31, 2019, 01:17:42 AM
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Indistinct blobs that you and Doyle are Rorschaching.

Iacoletti,

Do you agree that those three "blobs" on the Pergola Patio are human beings, or are your eyes so weak now that it's impossible for you to say?

If they are human beings, what gender do you think they are?

Do you think they're males, wearing really, really long bermuda shorts (and long-sleeved upper garments) to a presidential motorcade in late November, 1963?

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Denis Morissette on June 04, 2019, 08:29:01 AM
The identity of the three ladies, Holt and her two co-workers, have been proved beyond any shadow of a doubt by me. Please accept my conclusions, and move on to other unsolved mysteries in the JFK assassination. Thank you. And Tom Graves is right! Leave him alone!!!
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 04, 2019, 09:47:26 AM
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The identity of the three ladies, Holt and her two co-workers, have been proved beyond any shadow of a doubt by me. Please accept my conclusions, and move on to other unsolved mysteries in the JFK assassination. Thank you. And Tom Graves is right! Leave him alone!!!

Thanks, Denis.

It's too bad that those three gals by the Stemmons sign in the Z-film (Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons) made the mistake of saying in their FBI statements that they'd watched the motorcade from the south side of Elm Street instead of from the north side, and that Thierry "Fake News" Speth, Don "I'll Get It Right Eventually" Roberdeau and Robin "I Don't Need Evidence But You Do" Unger came along and mis-identified them on their very impressive and oh-so wonderful Dealy Plaza Maps and labelled-in-yellow Zapruder Frames as (LOL) "Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed," respectively.

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Please don't tell Iacoletti to leave me alone on this or the over-arching Gloria Calvery on the TSBD Steps in Couch-Darnell issue.

I rather enjoy watching him reveal to the world what an arrogant and biased fool he is!
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 09:14:06 PM
Graves, you're only showing the world what an arrogant fool you are.

Denis, unlike Graves who is worthy of no respect whatsoever, I do respect you, but in the end it's just a subjective opinion who the three Zapruder ladies are.  If you are satisfied with your opinion then that's great.  But that doesn't turn it into a fact.  Graves won't rest until everybody agrees with him and that's just not going to happen by stating his opinion over and over again.  That's the lesson he and Doyle never seem to grasp.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 04, 2019, 11:22:20 PM
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Graves, you're only showing the world what an arrogant fool you are.

Denis, unlike Graves who is worthy of no respect whatsoever, I do respect you, but in the end it's just a subjective opinion who the three Zapruder ladies are.  If you are satisfied with your opinion then that's great.  But that doesn't turn it into a fact.  Graves won't rest until everybody agrees with him and that's just not going to happen by stating his opinion over and over again.  That's the lesson he and Doyle never seem to grasp.

Iacoletti,

You do realize, don't you, that Denis was told by Gloria Holt's brother that the crying gal in the Darnell clip looks like his sister, Gloria Holt?

You know, THE Gloria Holt who watched the motorcade with self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and their mutual colleague, Sharon Simmons?

-- MWT. ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 11:36:32 PM
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You do realize, don't you, that Denis was told by Gloria Holt's brother that the crying gal in the Darnell clip looks like his sister, Gloria Holt?

Yes.  What's your point?  I think she looks like Holt too.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 12:21:33 AM
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I think she (the crying gal in the Darnell clip) looks like (Gloria) Holt, too.

Iacoletti,

In their FBI statements, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her work colleague, Gloria Holt, said they watched the motorcade together.

Taking the above into consideration, don't you think it's reasonable to assume that the woman to the left of the Gloria Holt lookalike in the Darnell clip is self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob?

Can you see that she has black hair, is dark-complected, and has a "classic American Indian nose"?

-- MWT   ;)



Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Denis Morissette on June 05, 2019, 05:01:08 AM
She looks like Holt? She IS Holt.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 05:39:58 AM
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She looks like Holt? She IS Holt.

Denis,

I doubt Iacoletti will admit that.

A question for you:  Do you agree with me that Gloria Holt is the gal in the middle of that trio of young women near the Stemmon's sign in the Z-film, or do you agree with Iacoletti and Westbrook that it's ... Gloria Calvery?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Denis Morissette on June 05, 2019, 05:43:07 AM
I agree with you.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 03:12:33 PM
Who you guys think the back of somebody's head looks like is a lot less relevant than a statement by somebody who was there that day.
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 05, 2019, 05:28:53 PM
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She looks like Holt? She IS Holt.


Which means Iacoletti was un-truthing as I accused him on your site and you took his side and banned me and kept Iacoletti...

You demanded I retract something that you yourself now agree with in public (which is why I refused to retract)...

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Larry Trotter on June 05, 2019, 08:11:25 PM
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Thanks, Denis.

It's too bad that those three gals by the Stemmons sign in the Z-film (Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons) made the mistake of saying in their FBI statements that they'd watched the motorcade from the south side of Elm Street instead of from the north side, and that Thierry "Fake News" Speth, Don "I'll Get It Right Eventually" Roberdeau and Robin "I Don't Need Evidence But You Do" Unger came along and mis-identified them on their very impressive and oh-so wonderful Dealy Plaza Maps and labelled-in-yellow Zapruder Frames as (LOL) "Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed," respectively.

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Please don't tell Iacoletti to leave me alone on this or the over-arching Gloria Calvery on the TSBD Steps in Couch-Darnell issue.


I rather enjoy watching him reveal to the world what an arrogant and biased fool he is!

Well you know, they were perched on the south side of Old Elm St. Maybe that was the reference being used. FWIW.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 08:54:44 PM
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Well you know, they were perched on the south side of Old Elm St. Maybe that was the reference being used. FWIW.

Larry,

No excuses.

Since they don't show up on the south side of Elm Street Proper (you know, the side that "Babuska Lady" was standing on?) in any of the photos or films taken during the assassination, they must have been standing on the north side of Elm Street.

Proper.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 05:59:28 PM
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Not an excuse, Mr Graves. Simply a stated fact with an added opinion, and I am well aware of the indicative evidence regarding the [location of self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons] as the President's Motorcade drove by.

Atta boy!

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 21, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
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This appears to be them in the Bronson-5 photo:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2WSqZi2ZMvE/XIOAEgRdmMI/AAAAAAAAFXE/t0J5urp_SA85lJryapi3DFda5FQ711p-gCLcBGAs/s1600/3%2Bladies.jpg)

The light blue headscarf on the girl in Zapruder matches the light blue headscarf in Bronson-5 (above).


Yes, Michael.  It sure does.

In fact, someone needs to tell Pat Speer at the EF that he really should re-word his identifications of the people in the Bronson photo in his blog, below, to read:

Between the Signs

Here, again, is a crop from the Bronson-5 photo taken circa frame 225 of the Zapruder film. The two men closest to the camera are unidentified. Along the north side of Elm Street are Louie Witt (the umbrella man), and a never-identified man sometimes called Dark-Complected Man, or DCM; two young men who may be Alan Smith and David Kendrick; John and Faye Chism and their children; a group of women [,the first three of] who[m] worked in the school book depository [and have recently been correctly] identified [by Thomas Graves] as Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, Carol Reed, and Karan Hicks light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons (clapping), strawberry blond Gloria Holt (also clapping), self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (waving her raised right hand), an unnamed colleague of Inez Juania Hart Dishong (aka June Dishong) with her right hand raised really high, a woman presumed to be [who
has been photographically identified by her relatives as] June Dishong, [and then] Jean Newman, [suit and "trilby" hat-wearing] Ernest Brandt, and [his young client,] John Templin.

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 25, 2019, 07:04:55 PM
"correctly identified by Thomas Graves"

 :D
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 07, 2019, 03:54:46 AM
To whom it may concern,

JFK photo-and-film enthusiast Linda Giovanna Zambanini is now on record (on her Facebook JFK Photographic Identification page) as believing Gloria Calvery is the "wide-hipped" gal (standing to the immediate left of John Templin) in the Zapruder film, and has even posted a Z-frame with a red line and the words "Gloria Calvery" so as to make it perfectly clear whom she is referring to.

What's interesting to me is that Linda was apparently not aware (until I informed her two nights ago) of what Sandy Larsen and I had written about the subject at the EF, and independently (perhaps with a little unwitting help from Bart You-Know-Who) arrived at the same conclusion Sandy and I had arrived at a year or so ago.


-- MWT  ;)
Title: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 07, 2019, 04:12:59 AM

I haven't seen that because when I asked Zambanini to honestly account for her previous opinions on Prayer Man vs my new evidence she blocked me instead of honestly answering...

Blocking when asked to admit you are wrong on evidence is bush league stuff...
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 07, 2019, 04:20:30 AM
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I haven't seen that because when I asked Zambanini to honestly account for her previous opinions on Prayer Man vs my new evidence she blocked me instead of honestly answering. Blocking when asked to admit you are wrong on evidence is bush league stuff.

Yes, Brian.

We know, Brian.

-- MWT  ::)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 07, 2019, 06:32:10 AM
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To whom it may concern,

JFK photo-and-film enthusiast Linda Giovanna Zambanini is now on record (on her Facebook JFK Photographic Identification page) as believing Gloria Calvery is the "wide-hipped" gal (standing to the immediate left of John Templin) in the Zapruder film, and has even posted a Z-frame with a red line and the words "Gloria Calvery" so as to make it perfectly clear whom she is referring to.

What's interesting to me is that Linda was apparently not aware (until I informed her two nights ago) of what Sandy Larsen and I had written about the subject at the EF, and independently (perhaps with a little unwitting help from Bart You-Know-Who) arrived at the same conclusion Sandy and I had arrived at a year or so ago.

-- MWT  ;)


One can only wonder how John "All I Can See Are Blobs" Iacoletti and Karen "Gloria Calvert [sic] Was My Friend!" Westbrook will take this bit of bad news ...

(LOL)

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 08, 2019, 11:10:28 AM
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One can only wonder how John "All I Can See Are Blobs" Iacoletti and Karen "Gloria Calvert [sic] Was My Friend!" Westbrook will take this bit of bad news ...

-- MWT  ;)

"The whole world is watching," but, doggone it, the cat seems to have gotten Iacoletti's tongue...

--  MWT  ;)

-
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 08, 2019, 09:03:38 PM
The “whole world” doesn’t give a crap, Tommy. How long are you going to keep belaboring this?
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 08, 2019, 10:25:56 PM
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The “whole world” doesn’t give a crap, Tommy. How long are you going to keep belaboring this?

Iacoletti,

For just as long as you continue to not only irrationally insist that the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film are not the same three people who were standing by the Stemmons Sign in Zapruder, but that they might not even be women at all, but Bermuda shorts-wearing men, instead.

LOL!

(Oh yeah, and for as long as you continue to insist that the three women standing by the Stemmons Sign are " ... probably Carol Reed, definitely Gloria Calvert (sic), and me, Karen Westbrook!")

--  MWT   ;)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2019, 04:24:20 AM
Then it will be as soon as you come up with better evidence than “duh, it looks like them to me!”
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 09, 2019, 06:25:18 AM
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Then it will be as soon as you come up with better evidence than “duh, it looks like them to me!”

Iacoletti,

That the best you got?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2019, 10:45:54 PM
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That the best you got?

Says the guy who thinks if he states an unsupported speculation confidently that it somehow becomes a fact.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 10, 2019, 12:41:15 AM
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Says the guy who thinks if he states an unsupported speculation confidently that it somehow becomes a fact.

Iacoletti,

What kind of evidentiary "support" do you require when it comes to identifying people in photos and films?

DNA samples, accompanied by notarized statements in triplicate?

Up-close, time-and-date-stamped polaroid photos of large tattoos on the forehead and on the back of the right calf which say "My name is (fill in the blank)"?

Fiber analysis with a clear chain-of-possession?

Sworn depositions by close friends and relatives?  (Too bad Karen Westbrook wasn't testifying under penalty of perjury with smilin' 'n noddin' Stephen Fagin.)

What?

--  MWT   :D

PS  Linda Giovanna Zambanini believes that the big, tall gal in Zapruder is Gloria Calvery.


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2019, 09:42:52 PM
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What kind of evidentiary "support" do you require when it comes to identifying people in photos and films?

Something more definitive than "<squint>, duh, looks like them to me!  If you don't just accept my wild-ass guess you must be blind".

Quote
PS  Linda Giovanna Zambanini believes that the big, tall gal in Zapruder is Gloria Calvery.

So you claim.  But I found no "Facebook JFK Photographic Identification page" owned by Linda or anyone else.  It doesn't matter who agrees with you.  What matters is the evidence to support a claim.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 10, 2019, 10:26:52 PM
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So you claim.  But I found no "Facebook JFK Photographic Identification page" owned by Linda or anyone else.  It doesn't matter who agrees with you.  What matters is the evidence to support a claim.


Iacoletti,

It's not that Linda "agrees" with me that's important, it's the fact that she apparently arrived at her conclusion (which happens to be the same as mine and Sandy Larsen's at the EF) on her own.

Here's a snippet from a conversation she and I had six days ago on Facebook:

(Me:) Linda, do you still think the lithe gal running down Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell was big, tall Gloria Calvery?

Linda Giovanna Zambanini:  I haven't thought that in ages and at the time i did it was because that was the accepted wisdom by everyone (not just me) about the running woman. Since then Bart, i think, or someone, maybe you? proved it couldn't be Calvery. Then it was thought that the reddish haired woman east of the Stemmons sign in the green dress (2nd one east of the sign) was her...but then it was proven (and i agree) that that is not Calvery, but Gloria Holt. As a result I now think Calvery is the big/wide hipped, tall woman to the left of the Stemmons sign. -- (With a Zapruder frame attached, on which Linda has drawn a line to the tall, wide-hipped gal in the Zapruder film and labeled her "Gloria Calvery" ...)


PS  My bad.  It's not Linda's FB page.  It's a FB Group (started by Jim Hess?).
https://www.facebook.com/groups/780923448613656/permalink/2441543189218332/?comment_id=2441624609210190


--  MWT   ;)


Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2019, 10:54:18 PM
So no justification then for identifying this person as Calvery?  I'm disappointed.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 10, 2019, 11:21:15 PM
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So no justification then for identifying this person as Calvery?  I'm disappointed.

Iacoletti,

It's called having relatively good eyesight, being unbiased, using deductive reasoning, and having a bit of "horse sense"

Aren't you bummed that Linda Giovanna Zambini agrees with Sandy Larsen and me that the big, tall gal in Zabruder is Gloria Calvery?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2019, 11:58:07 PM
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It's called having relatively good eyesight, being unbiased, using deductive reasoning, and having a bit of "horse sense"

It's called "proof" by insisting that you are correct over and over.

Quote
Aren't you bummed that Linda Giovanna Zambini agrees with Sandy Larsen and me that the big, tall gal in Zabruder is Gloria Calvery?

Not particularly.  Not without knowing WHY.  I just hope their reasons are better than yours.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 11, 2019, 05:58:09 PM
Me:  Aren't you bummed that Linda Giovanna Zambini agrees with Sandy Larsen and me that the big, tall gal in Zabruder is Gloria Calvery?

Iacoletti:  Not particularly.  Not without knowing WHY.  I just hope their reasons are better than yours.

.....

Iacoletti,

What are your reasons for believing Karen Westbrook was right when she "identified" the three women standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder as "Uhh ... probably Carol Reed, definitely my friend Gloria Calvert (sic), and me, Karen Westbrook!", in a frame that was shot some distance from those three women, from behind, and 55 years earlier?

(One wonders whether or not Stephen "Smilin' 'n Noddin'" Fagin pointed out to Mrs. Scranton the tall, blue headscarf-wearing woman standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" with those three other headscarf-wearing gals about twenty feet to the left of her "Calvert" in that same frame, or whether or not Fagin is even aware of that woman (the real Westbrook) in the Zapruder film.

Did Steve assume that those four shoulder-to-shoulder headscarf-wearing gals must have been (because Robin Unger and Don Roberdeau said so -- in some unknown order) Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney, plus one "odd-woman-in" Mysto Gal?)

Because, "Uhh ... She was there, Tommy.  She was there fifty-five years ago, goddammit, and you weren't." ?

LOL

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
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What are your reasons for believing Karen Westbrook was right when she "identified" the three women standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder as "Uhh ... probably Carol Reed, definitely my friend Gloria Calvert (sic), and me, Karen Westbrook!", in a frame that was shot some distance from those three women, from behind, and 55 years earlier?

Do you think that if you keep asking the same questions over and over again that you'll eventually get a different answer?

Westbrook was there and knew these people.  You were not and did not.  That's why I believe her over you.  Simple as that.

Until you come up with something better than "duh....looks like them to me!", that will continue to be the answer.  So stop repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again and come up with something else.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 11, 2019, 09:25:18 PM
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Do you think that if you keep asking the same questions over and over again that you'll eventually get a different answer?

Westbrook was there and knew these people.  You were not and did not.  That's why I believe her over you.  Simple as that.

Until you come up with something better than "duh....looks like them to me!", that will continue to be the answer.  So stop repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again and come up with something else.

Iacoletti,

If that's Carol Reed on the left (in that group of three women in Zapruder):
1) Why is she so dark-complected? (see Z-frame 60, etc)
2)  Where is Karan Hicks?

If that's not Carol Reed on the left:
1) Is it Karan Hicks, instead?
2)  (see #2, above)

If that's neither Reed nor Hicks on the left:
Then where are they?

Hmm?

--  MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2019, 10:42:58 PM
Looks like all you have is yet another round of the same old questions.

Wake me up if you ever come up with something new.
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 12, 2019, 12:02:15 AM
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Looks like all you have is yet another round of the same old questions.

Wake me up if you ever come up with something new.


Somebody please wake me up if Iacoletti ever answers them.

"Color-saturation in the Costella Combined-Edit frames Z-60, etc, make her skin look darker than it really was."

"Just because Calvery, Hicks, Reed and Westbrook told the FBI they'd walked down Elm Street and watched the motorcade together doesn't mean they were actually standing within 50 feet of each other."

LOL

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2019, 12:09:41 AM
Sorry, did you say something?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c1e048bf419146f25eeb54b5df2d4b0a/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Have Doyle and Graves proven that these are the same people?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 12, 2019, 12:59:13 AM
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Sorry, did you say something?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/c1e048bf419146f25eeb54b5df2d4b0a/tenor.gif)

Iacoletti,

You must be exhausted from all those midnight rituals with the guys in the garden.

Didn't anyone tell you when you were young that you could go blind doing that?

--  MWT   ;)