JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 02:34:55 PM
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From the Warren Report.... https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#capability
In deciding whether Lee Harvey Oswald fired the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally, the Commission considered whether Oswald, using his own rifle, possessed the capability to hit his target with two out of three shots under the conditions described in chapter Ill. The Commission evaluated (1) the nature of the shots, (2) Oswald's Marine training in marksmanship, (3) his experience and practice after leaving the Marine Corps, and (4) the accuracy of the weapon and the quality of the ammunition.
Robert A. Frazier, FBI expert in firearms identification and training, said: "I mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the target and that is all that is necessary."
So in other words..your grandma could have been an expert assassin. No experience necessary Thumb1:
Sergeant Zahm expressed the opinion that the shot which struck President Kennedy in the neck at 176.9 to 190.8 feet was "very easy" and the shot which struck the President in the head at a distance of 265.3 feet was "an easy shot."
The Report fails to mention that no one else was really able to re-enact that feat. Lip service was sufficient.
In accordance with standard Marine procedures, Oswald received extensive training in marksmanship.773 During the first week of an intensive 8-week training period he received instruction in sighting, aiming, and manipulation of the trigger. He had the services of an experienced highly trained coach.
"Manipulation of the trigger" What is that...chiropractic? Massage? All Marines receive '8 weeks of intensive training'. It's called 'boot camp'. All Marines receive rifle training and are required to pass marksman skills. The 'highly trained coach' is called a drill instructor. This does not mean [as I have stated before] that this enables a trainee to become an expert sniper for life. During one of his leaves from the Marines, Oswald hunted with his brother Robert, using a .22 caliber bolt-action rifle belonging either to Robert or Robert's in-laws.
So what? Plinking around with a .22 doesn't require marksman skills...no mention that Lee ever hit anything. More lip service from the writer of this gibberish. [I wonder who he was?]
Marina Oswald testified that in New Orleans in May of 1963, she observed Oswald sitting with the rifle on their screened porch at night, sighting with the telescopic lens and operating the bolt.
There are threads all over the forum refuting this claim as just pure bunk. The various tests showed that the Mannlicher-Carcano was an accurate rifle and that the use of a four-power scope was a substantial aid to rapid, accurate firing.
A failure to mention that these 'various tests' involved.... placing shims under the scope which was out of alignment by a country mile.
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From the Warren Report.... https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#capability So in other words..your grandma could have been an expert assassin. No experience necessary Thumb1:The Report fails to mention that no one else was really able to re-enact that feat. Lip service was sufficient."Manipulation of the trigger" What is that...chiropractic? Massage? All Marines receive '8 weeks of intensive training'. It's called 'boot camp'. All Marines receive rifle training and are required to pass marksman skills. The 'highly trained coach' is called a drill instructor. This does not mean [as I have stated before] that this enables a trainee to become an expert sniper for life. So what? Plinking around with a .22 doesn't require marksman skills...no mention that Lee ever hit anything. More lip service from the writer of this gibberish. [I wonder who he was?] There are threads all over the forum refuting this claim as just pure bunk. A failure to mention that these 'various tests' involved.... placing shims under the scope which was out of alignment by a country mile.
Robert A. Frazier, FBI expert in firearms identification and training, said: "I mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the target and that is all that is necessary."
So in other words..your grandma could have been an expert assassin. No experience necessary Thumb1:
Yes, That's exactly what they wanted the gullible pissants to believe..... They touted the deadly accuracy of the rifle because it was equipped with a "telescopic sight" ....OOOOOH WEEEEEEE..... Whoopdie Doo..... WOW!!... A TELESCOPIC SIGHT!..... What they failed to mention is:... The rifle might as well have had a dildo mounted on the rifle, because that would have been just as effective as that scope which was mounted askew. And even if Granny had been a world class sharpshooter she would still have got nothing bu Maggies Drawers with that rifle.
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I have seen shooting reproductions but they never seem to include assembling the rifle.
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I have seen shooting reproductions but they never seem to include assembling the rifle.
Reportedly... a demonstration of the rifle assembly was done with a dime [ten times more reliable than with a penny?]
---As no tools were ever reported found---
No testimony on that rifle [so assembled] having actually been fired :-\
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This video should also be seen here...
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From the Warren Report.... https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#capability So in other words..your grandma could have been an expert assassin. No experience necessary Thumb1:The Report fails to mention that no one else was really able to re-enact that feat. Lip service was sufficient."Manipulation of the trigger" What is that...chiropractic? Massage? All Marines receive '8 weeks of intensive training'. It's called 'boot camp'. All Marines receive rifle training and are required to pass marksman skills. The 'highly trained coach' is called a drill instructor. This does not mean [as I have stated before] that this enables a trainee to become an expert sniper for life. So what? Plinking around with a .22 doesn't require marksman skills...no mention that Lee ever hit anything. More lip service from the writer of this gibberish. [I wonder who he was?] There are threads all over the forum refuting this claim as just pure bunk. A failure to mention that these 'various tests' involved.... placing shims under the scope which was out of alignment by a country mile.
According to my recent search, trigger control is the most important component of firearms manipulation. And can be practiced by dry firing.
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This video should also be seen here...
So that wasn't Oswald's Carcano. Got it. BTW, how much practice did Ventura have with operating the bolt? I'll bet he did that cold turkey.
Name your experts who practiced with the bolt action for more than a few minutes. Oswald had months to do so. And tell us how anyone populating your claimed threads all over the Internet know whether Marina saw him practicing on the porch or not.
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This video should also be seen here...
What about the possibility that Jesse Ventura... sorry, Governor Ventura: Was not trying to fire the shots as quickly as he was capable of? After all, the shooter is a former professional wrestler. Pro Wrestling is acknowledged (even by Ventura) as FAKE! Why should we trust a renowned faker?
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This video should also be seen here...
Unfortunately for Kennedy, it wasn't Jesse Ventura who was firing at him on Nov 22, 1963.
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Yeah...you guys are right. Big rugged Lee Harvey Oswald was a lot tougher, stronger, faster, and vastly more skilled than Jesse Ventura :D
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So that wasn't Oswald's Carcano. Got it. BTW, how much practice did Hogan have with operating the bolt? I'll bet he did that cold turkey.
Name your experts who practiced with the bolt action for more than a few minutes. Oswald had months to do so. And tell us how anyone populating your claimed threads all over the Internet know whether Marina saw him practicing on the porch or not.
Ha, Ha, Ha..Hee..Hee.. Hee ROTFLMAO!..... Chapedass I know it's rude to laugh at the mentally handicapped.....But yer a riot.
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Unfortunately for Kennedy, it wasn't Jesse Ventura who was firing at him on Nov 22, 1963.
Good one Thumb1:
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Good one Thumb1:
Good grief. Why don't you guys just invite each other out for a candlelight dinner?
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Ha, Ha, Ha..Hee..Hee.. Hee ROTFLMAO!..... Chapedass I know it's rude to laugh at the mentally handicapped.....But yer a riot.
Again another non-answer from yet another CT troll.
Take your meds, goofball.
@Newbies: Note how Wallyburger failed to address the mechanical difficulties one faces when new to the Carcano; and the inherent need to practice working the bolt.
The fact is that Marina witnessed Oswald working the bolt, while Frazier reported that FBI testers said they would have better results the more they practiced.
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Again another non-answer from yet another CT troll.
Take your meds, goofball.
@Newbies: Note how Wallyburger failed to address the mechanical difficulties one faces when new to the Carcano; and the inherent need to practice working the bolt.
The fact is that Marina witnessed Oswald working the bolt, while Frazier reported that FBI testers said they would have better results the more they practiced.
Note how Wallyburger failed to address the mechanical difficulties one faces when new to the Carcano; and the inherent need to practice working the bolt.
Yes, Ventura did have a bit of a problem operating the bolt of the Carcano....And I've been saying that the carcano is a clunky hard to operate rifle, and not at all suitable for use where rapid fire is needed.....And thank you for your support.
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Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting, because he is in the sniper nest by 12:24 (to have placed box on window ledge just before Bronson film starts) and during this 6 minutes of time Harold Norman was RIGHT under him, and SURELY Norman would have heard the "clak clak" of the bolt operating if Oswald working it.
And Oswald had not worked the bolt therefore until he had last had the rifle in hand, IF he was the shooter seen by Arnold Rowland at 12:15 at the SW window of TSBD 6th floor.
so 15 minutes of not having worked the bolt beforehand, plus having to use iron sights fixed for a zero of 200 meters, plus having to have remained out of sight, thus NOT IN position premptively, makes this NOT a simple exercise. The top military snipers , Carlos Hathcock, and Craig Roberts were high skeptical:
?The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was because I could not have done it,? said former US Marine sniper, Craig Roberts. Credited with numerous kills while serving in Vietnam , Roberts turned an objective eye on the shot heard ?round the world. After he visited Dealey Plaza, after viewing the so-called ?sniper?s lair,? on the sixth floor of the book depository, and after staring at the large oak tree overspreading much of Elm Street, Roberts said, ?I walked away from the window in disgust. I had seen all I needed to know that Oswald could not have been the lone shooter.?
Not content with his own critical appraisal, Roberts turned to another, equally knowledgeable shooter. ?According to my friend, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor for the US Marine Corps Sniper Instructor School at Quantico, Virginia, it could not be done as described by the FBI investigators.?
?Let me tell you what we did at Quantico,? Hathcock recalls. ?We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don?t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn?t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now if I can?t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qual on the rifle range and later only qualified 'marksman' do it??
https://www.liberalforum.org/topic/233951-oswald-couldnt-have-done-itshot-impossible-says-2-famed-snipers/
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Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting, because he is in the sniper nest by 12:24 (to have placed box on window ledge just before Bronson film starts) and during this 6 minutes of time Harold Norman was RIGHT under him, and SURELY Norman would have heard the "clak clak" of the bolt operating if Oswald working it.
And Oswald had not worked the bolt therefore until he had last had the rifle in hand, IF he was the shooter seen by Arnold Rowland at 12:15 at the SW window of TSBD 6th floor.
so 15 minutes of not having worked the bolt beforehand, plus having to use iron sights fixed for a zero of 200 meters, plus having to have remained out of sight, thus NOT IN position premptively, makes this NOT a simple exercise. Thats probably 2 top military snipers , Carlos Hathcock, and Craig Roberts were high skeptical:
?The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was because I could not have done it,? said former US Marine sniper, Craig Roberts. Credited with numerous kills while serving in Vietnam , Roberts turned an objective eye on the shot heard ?round the world. After he visited Dealey Plaza, after viewing the so-called ?sniper?s lair,? on the sixth floor of the book depository, and after staring at the large oak tree overspreading much of Elm Street, Roberts said, ?I walked away from the window in disgust. I had seen all I needed to know that Oswald could not have been the lone shooter.?
Not content with his own critical appraisal, Roberts turned to another, equally knowledgeable shooter. ?According to my friend, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor for the US Marine Corps Sniper Instructor School at Quantico, Virginia, it could not be done as described by the FBI investigators.?
?Let me tell you what we did at Quantico,? Hathcock recalls. ?We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don?t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn?t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now if I can?t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qual on the rifle range and later only qualified 'marksman' do it??
https://www.liberalforum.org/topic/233951-oswald-couldnt-have-done-itshot-impossible-says-2-famed-snipers/
Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting, because he is in the sniper nest by 12:24
No , That's not correct.....Lee was in the first floor lunchroom at about 12:26 whe Jarman and Norman passed by on their way to the fifth floor....
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Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting, because he is in the sniper nest by 12:24 (to have placed box on window ledge just before Bronson film starts) and during this 6 minutes of time Harold Norman was RIGHT under him, and SURELY Norman would have heard the "clak clak" of the bolt operating if Oswald working it.
And Oswald had not worked the bolt therefore until he had last had the rifle in hand, IF he was the shooter seen by Arnold Rowland at 12:15 at the SW window of TSBD 6th floor.
so 15 minutes of not having worked the bolt beforehand, plus having to use iron sights fixed for a zero of 200 meters, plus having to have remained out of sight, thus NOT IN position premptively, makes this NOT a simple exercise. Thats probably 2 top military snipers , Carlos Hathcock, and Craig Roberts were high skeptical:
?The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was because I could not have done it,? said former US Marine sniper, Craig Roberts. Credited with numerous kills while serving in Vietnam , Roberts turned an objective eye on the shot heard ?round the world. After he visited Dealey Plaza, after viewing the so-called ?sniper?s lair,? on the sixth floor of the book depository, and after staring at the large oak tree overspreading much of Elm Street, Roberts said, ?I walked away from the window in disgust. I had seen all I needed to know that Oswald could not have been the lone shooter.?
Not content with his own critical appraisal, Roberts turned to another, equally knowledgeable shooter. ?According to my friend, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor for the US Marine Corps Sniper Instructor School at Quantico, Virginia, it could not be done as described by the FBI investigators.?
?Let me tell you what we did at Quantico,? Hathcock recalls. ?We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don?t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn?t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now if I can?t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qual on the rifle range and later only qualified 'marksman' do it??
https://www.liberalforum.org/topic/233951-oswald-couldnt-have-done-itshot-impossible-says-2-famed-snipers/
Hathcock & Kennedy Assassination? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carlos_Hathcock/Archive_1#Hathcock_&_Kennedy_Assassination?)
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Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting, because he is in the sniper nest by 12:24 (to have placed box on window ledge just before Bronson film starts) and during this 6 minutes of time Harold Norman was RIGHT under him, and SURELY Norman would have heard the "clak clak" of the bolt operating if Oswald working it.
And Oswald had not worked the bolt therefore until he had last had the rifle in hand, IF he was the shooter seen by Arnold Rowland at 12:15 at the SW window of TSBD 6th floor.
so 15 minutes of not having worked the bolt beforehand, plus having to use iron sights fixed for a zero of 200 meters, plus having to have remained out of sight, thus NOT IN position premptively, makes this NOT a simple exercise. Thats probably 2 top military snipers , Carlos Hathcock, and Craig Roberts were high skeptical:
?The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was because I could not have done it,? said former US Marine sniper, Craig Roberts. Credited with numerous kills while serving in Vietnam , Roberts turned an objective eye on the shot heard ?round the world. After he visited Dealey Plaza, after viewing the so-called ?sniper?s lair,? on the sixth floor of the book depository, and after staring at the large oak tree overspreading much of Elm Street, Roberts said, ?I walked away from the window in disgust. I had seen all I needed to know that Oswald could not have been the lone shooter.?
Not content with his own critical appraisal, Roberts turned to another, equally knowledgeable shooter. ?According to my friend, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor for the US Marine Corps Sniper Instructor School at Quantico, Virginia, it could not be done as described by the FBI investigators.?
?Let me tell you what we did at Quantico,? Hathcock recalls. ?We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don?t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn?t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now if I can?t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qual on the rifle range and later only qualified 'marksman' do it??
https://www.liberalforum.org/topic/233951-oswald-couldnt-have-done-itshot-impossible-says-2-famed-snipers/
"Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting"
>>> So what. He already had the feel of the rifle. Only FBI testers used the actual rifle afaik, and they said they could improve their times with more practice.
Seems Oswald was in the zone that day..
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Mr. LIEBELER - Do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President?
Mr. ANDREWS - I know good and well he did not. With that weapon, he couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that short time.
Mr. LIEBELER - You are basing your opinion on reports that you have received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period of time; is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS - I am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman in the Navy. You can lean into those things, and with throwing the bolts--if I couldn't do it myself, 8 hours a day, doing this for a living, constantly on the range, I know this civilian couldn't do it. He might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean into that rifle and don't squeeze and. control consistently, your brain can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability.
Mr. LIEBELER - You have used a pronoun in this last series of statements, the pronoun "it." You are making certain assumptions as to what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to what happened based on material you read in the newspaper?
Mr. ANDREWS - It doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy, this boy couldn't do it. Forget the President.
Mr. LIEBELER - You base that judgment on the fact that, in your own experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing?
Mr. ANDREWS - You have to stay with it. You just don't pick up a rifle or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with it. You have to know what you are doing. You have to be a conniver. This boy could have connived the deal, but I think he is a patsy. Somebody else pulled the trigger.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/andrews.htm
Oswald what now? Practiced working the bolt while aiming at the cuckoo in the clock? :D
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Oswald didn't have the option of working the bolt repeatedly just before shooting, because he is in the sniper nest by 12:24
No , That's not correct.....Lee was in the first floor lunchroom at about 12:26 whe Jarman and Norman passed by on their way to the fifth floor....
right Thumb1:
barring the random coincidental selection of Norman and Jarman by Oswald as probable, then we are left with where Oswald could have seen or heard Norman and Jarman, IF Oswald were the shooter AND also, able to get into the snipers nest by 12:24 without being seen by Bonnie Ray Williams leaving from that window by 12:22, otherwise, the box cannot be placed in the window by 12:24 unless BRW placed it, which is highly NOT probable.
The only place remotely probable for Oswald to be hiding, to be able to both hear Norman and Jarman coming up the staircase, and also see or hear BRW using the elevator and going down to 5th floor, is that Oswald hides on the mid level of the 6th floor staircase going up to the 7th floor.
He could have heard Norman and Jarman on the staircase one level below,, and he could hear and possibly see thru the elevator shaft, BRW using the East elevator.
But this would require Norman and Jarman be AT their windows by 12:20, and BRW joining them as Jarman said "several minutes later, at approx 12:23. so as to give Oswald at least 1 minute to cross over the 6th floor and put the box in the SE 6th floor window ledge by 12:24, just before the Bronson film begins.
But even Jarman and Normans LATEST estimate of their STARTING to leave from front of the TSBD is 12:20, so this makes it nearly impossible for the above "Oswald hiding" scenario.
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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/andrews.htm
Oswald what now? Practiced working the bolt while aiming at the cuckoo in the clock? :D
This is why the CBS shooter trial is total garbage, because they were allowed to work the bolt, to be in position BEFOREHAND and knew the track of the target. They didn't have a tree in the way either. The target was red on a black background and they couldsee the line of the track too.
PLUS, they let them USE an ALIGNED scope :D
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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/andrews.htm
Oswald what now? Practiced working the bolt while aiming at the cuckoo in the clock? :D
Like Tim has pointed out re Ventura, too bad for JFK that this guy Andrews wasn't the one firing at him that day.
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This is why the CBS shooter trial is total garbage, because they were allowed to work the bolt, to be in position BEFOREHAND and knew the track of the target. They didn't have a tree in the way either. The target was red on a black background and they couldsee the line of the track too.
PLUS, they let them USE an ALIGNED scope :D
Are you saying you know that Oswald's scope was misaligned during the shooting...?
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Are you saying you know that Oswald's scope was misaligned during the shooting...?
Im going on the fact that the only way they could align the scope for elevation was to unsrew the mount itself and insert a shim and then rescrew the mount at a lsightly different angle.
IDK if you can physically damage a scope to only cause elevation mis alignment so bad that it requires adding a shim, but not cause any damage to horizontal alignment and do this in the 30 sec after the shooting, while also wiping prints off with a shirt or rag, and also while running with rifle acroos the floor at 10 ft per sec
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle%20capabilities.png)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle%20capabilities1.png)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle%20capabilities2.png)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/oswald%20marksmanship.jpg)
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Are you saying you know that Oswald's scope was misaligned during the shooting...?
It was misaligned before, during and after-------
?They [the US Army marksmen] could not sight the weapon in using the telescope, and no attempt was made to sight it in using the iron sight. We did adjust the telescopic sight by the addition of two shims, one which tended to adjust the azimuth, and one which adjusted an elevation?: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.443.
According to the FBI?s firearms specialist, ?Every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. ? We fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact.?: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.405.
Problems with the bolt and the trigger mechanism: ?There were several comments made ? particularly with respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. ? There was also comment made about the trigger pull ? in the first stage the trigger is relatively free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the weapon.?: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.449. ?The pressure to open the bolt was so great that that we tended to move the rifle off the target.?: ibid., p.451.
A real piece of work ::)
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Are you saying you know that Oswald's scope was misaligned during the shooting...?
Are you saying you know that Oswald's scope was misaligned during the shooting...?
The scope was MOUNTED askew.... So, even though the carcano was never fired that day,.... YES, the scope was misaligned when the rifle was hidden beneath the boxes of books.
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Of course, we never know whether a person is really trying to do something well. But the fact remains that there is scant record of people being able to duplicate the feat with ease.
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Of course, we never know whether a person is really trying to do something well. But the fact remains that there is scant record of people being able to duplicate the feat with ease.
What exactly was the feat and when was any attempt to duplicate it ever made?
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What exactly was the feat and when was any attempt to duplicate it ever made?
Just ignore Tim Bickerson. He enjoys being difficult ;)
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The fact is that Marina witnessed Oswald working the bolt,
How is that a "fact"?
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The fact is that Marina witnessed Oswald working the bolt,
How is that a "fact"?
By her diligent and straight-forward honesty with everything she said (http://ruadventures.com/forum/Smileys/animated/undecided.gif)
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...except when did she even say that?
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...except when did she even say that?
Oh...she 'heard it'--
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the hack porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, :D.. and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time.
Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time. Yes--twice he did clean it.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.
Did Oswald name his rifle? Did he ever chant the Marine chant 'This is my rifle this is my gun this is for shooting this is for fun'? :P
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Oh...she 'heard it'--Did Oswald name his rifle? Did he ever chant the Marine chant 'This is my rifle this is my gun this is for shooting this is for fun'? :P
Yes, he did ... And he thought Marina couldn't understand what he was chanting in English..... Until she hit him on the head with a Russian Language dictionary...
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she 'heard it'--
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm
And then 15 years later... she didn't---- Mr. McDONALD. Can you recall overhearing the sound of Lee handling the rifle? In other words, do you recall when he would be sitting on the porch, do you recall loud sounds of what would be moving the bolt or the action on the rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall right now.
Mr. McDONALD. If you think about it for a minute, do you recall that kind of sound, the sound of metal on metal, sort of a clacking sound?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I remember it; no.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ever see him move the action of the rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. I told you I did not pay attention to what he was doing that much, to give you the descriptions, if he changed the positions or was it any sounds, because I wasn't listening for it.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you know or do you remember any time when he would handle the rifle when it seemed like he would be shooting at something, an imaginary object?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I cannot.
Mr. McDONALD. Pulling the trigger?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I cannot tell you that.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm
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How is that a "fact"?
Oswald's Rifle Practice Outside the Marines
Cite: NARA
During one of his leaves from the Marines, Oswald hunted with his brother Robert, using a .22 caliber bolt-action rifle belonging either to Robert or Robert's in-laws.785 After he left the Marines and before departing for Russia, Oswald, his brother, and a third companion went hunting for squirrels and rabbits.786 On that occasion Oswald again used a bolt-action .22 caliber rifle; and according to Robert, Lee Oswald exhibited an average amount of proficiency with that weapon.787 While in Russia, Oswald obtained a hunting license, joined a hunting club and went hunting about six times, as discussed more fully in chapter VI.788 Soon after Oswald returned from the Soviet Union he again went hunting with his brother, Robert, and used a borrowed .22 caliber bolt-action rifle.789 After Oswald purchased the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, he told his wife that he practiced with it.790 Marina Oswald testified that on one occasion she saw him take the rifle, concealed in a raincoat, from the house on Neely Street. Oswald told her he was going to practice with it. 791 According to George De Mohrenschildt, Oswald said that he went target shooting with that rifle.792
Marina Oswald testified that in New Orleans in May of 1963, she observed Oswald sitting with the rifle on their screened porch at night, sighting with the telescopic lens and operating the bolt.798 Examination of the cartridge cases found on the sixth floor of the Depository
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By her diligent and straight-forward honesty with everything she said (http://ruadventures.com/forum/Smileys/animated/undecided.gif)
Yet you believe her HCSA testimony it seems. How convenient.
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Im going on the fact that the only way they could align the scope for elevation was to unsrew the mount itself and insert a shim and then rescrew the mount at a lsightly different angle.
IDK if you can physically damage a scope to only cause elevation mis alignment so bad that it requires adding a shim, but not cause any damage to horizontal alignment and do this in the 30 sec after the shooting, while also wiping prints off with a shirt or rag, and also while running with rifle acroos the floor at 10 ft per sec
If the scope became somehow misaligned before the shooting started, it doesn't make sense that any attempt would be made to use it. Some suggest that he found a way to use the iron sights.
And I don't see how anyone would know that Oswald would have been running with the rifle. Or even needed to. The time trials indicate a time of between 75-90 seconds, IMS. Brennan testified that the shooter paused after the last shot and didn't seem to be hurried.
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All of this speculation about Oswald's rifle capability is a red herring. All of the evidence found indicated that it was Oswald alone who shot and killed JFK. Regardless of how he scored in the firing test while in the USMC, how many times Oswald worked the bolt to familiarize himself with the weapon, how many times he managed to practice with the rifle while in New Orleans, whether you believe Marina, the accuracy of the MC with and without using the scope (nobody knows if Oswald actually used the scope), the actual timeline of the sequence of shots if the first shot missed could be as long as over 8 seconds, the evidence strongly supports the fact that it was Oswald who was the SN shooter. NO OTHER SUSPECT HAS BEEN FOUND WHO COULD HAVE BEEN THE SHOOTER! Oswald pulled the trigger three times, missed the first shot, scored a hit on JFK that went through his neck, out his throat, entered JBC as the 6.5 mm WC copper jacketed bullet was beginning to yaw at approx. Z224, went out JBC's chest, struck his right wrist, and made a small puncture wound in his left thigh. That bullet, CE-399, was recovered at Parkland Hospital and accounts for two (the other being CE-567 and CE-569) of the three bullets fired. It's that freaking fu****g simple, yet you dumb a** commie loving, wife beating, turncoat Oswald defenders just refuse to face the facts just as the dumb a** Flat Earth believers refuse to believe in what is the most obvious of facts.
In order to support the myriad of theories to cast doubt on Oswald's guilt you fail each and every time in providing an alternate theory backed by reasonable evidence to support the theory that Oswald was not the shooter. Every time some half a***d unreasonable point is brought out by you guys it's countered by reasonable, effective, and verifiable evidence that completely shuts the door to further inquiry but you still persist because your life revolves around trying proving the unprovable by inventing unsupportable scenarios. It's your life and you can live it as you choose but you will never be at peace with yourselves because you're emotionally glued to a lost cause.
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All of this speculation about Oswald's rifle capability is a red herring.
On and on with the official hymn....seems quite upset. Try Prozac for that anxiety.
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Marina Oswald testified that in New Orleans in May of 1963, she observed Oswald sitting with the rifle on their screened porch at night, sighting with the telescopic lens and operating the bolt.
That claim is not supported by Marina's actual testimony, which Jerry posted earlier. This is why you shouldn't believe claims made in the WC Report without checking their sources.
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If the scope became somehow misaligned before the shooting started, it doesn't make sense that any attempt would be made to use it.
Why would you assume the shooter knew it was misaligned?
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All of this speculation about Oswald's rifle capability is a red herring. All of the evidence found indicated that it was Oswald alone who shot and killed JFK. Regardless of how he scored in the firing test while in the USMC, how many times Oswald worked the bolt to familiarize himself with the weapon, how many times he managed to practice with the rifle while in New Orleans, whether you believe Marina, the accuracy of the MC with and without using the scope (nobody knows if Oswald actually used the scope), the actual timeline of the sequence of shots if the first shot missed could be as long as over 8 seconds, the evidence strongly supports the fact that it was Oswald who was the SN shooter. NO OTHER SUSPECT HAS BEEN FOUND WHO COULD HAVE BEEN THE SHOOTER! Oswald pulled the trigger three times, missed the first shot, scored a hit on JFK that went through his neck, out his throat, entered JBC as the 6.5 mm WC copper jacketed bullet was beginning to yaw at approx. Z224, went out JBC's chest, struck his right wrist, and made a small puncture wound in his left thigh. That bullet, CE-399, was recovered at Parkland Hospital and accounts for two (the other being CE-567 and CE-569) of the three bullets fired.
That's the narrative. What's the "strongly supporting" evidence?
It's that freaking fu****g simple, yet you dumb a** commie loving, wife beating, turncoat Oswald defenders just refuse to face the facts just as the dumb a** Flat Earth believers refuse to believe in what is the most obvious of facts.
What a rational, convincing, evidence-based argument!
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#@**& It's that freaking fu****g simple, yet you dumb a** commie loving, wife beating, turncoat Oswald defenders just refuse to face the facts just as the dumb a** Flat Earth believers refuse to believe in what is the most obvious of facts. **#^#
What a rational, convincing, evidence-based argument!
A condition we could call conspiraphobia. Caused by repetitive incantations-- "Oswald did it".."It was Oswald's rifle".."Oswald panicked".."he killed the cop" etc.
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That's the narrative. What's the "strongly supporting" evidence?
What a rational, convincing, evidence-based argument!
I'm wondering if you're claiming that practice time with a specific weapon is unimportant
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Why would you assume the shooter knew it was misaligned?
Where did I claim that
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Why would you assume the shooter knew it was misaligned?
When was it established beyond reasonable doubt that the rifle was fired that day?
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When was it established beyond reasonable doubt that the rifle was fired that day?
When the two large fragments recovered from the limo and the bullet found on Connally's stretcher at Parkland were matched to that rifle.
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That claim is not supported by Marina's actual testimony, which Jerry posted earlier. This is why you shouldn't believe claims made in the WC Report without checking their sources.
Are you now saying that Marina was telling the truth in her WC testimony
She lied except when she didn't, huh
;)
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I'm wondering if you're claiming that practice time with a specific weapon is unimportant
What practice time?
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When the two large fragments recovered from the limo and the bullet found on Connally's stretcher at Parkland were matched to that rifle.
I wasn't aware those fragments were time-stamped.
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Are you now saying that Marina was telling the truth in her WC testimony
She lied except when she didn't, huh
;)
When did I say she lied?
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Sergeant James Zahm, an expert shooter, considered that a rifle with a telescopic sight, such as the Mannlicher Carcano, needed to be ?sighted?in? by firing the rifle about ten times without ammunition shortly before firing it with live ammunition (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.308).
When did I say she lied?
I've already mentioned that she did...further noting that Marina stated at first.....she had never seen OSWALD practice with his rifle or any other firearm and he had never told her that he was going to practice. (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.763 [Commission Exhibit 1401])
She did not recall that he [Oswald] ever practiced firing the rifle either in New Orleans or in Dallas. She does not think he did practice in New Orleans because as a rule he stayed home when he was not working. When he did go out, she did not see him take the rifle. (ibid., p.778 [Commission Exhibit 1403])
She said that she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with a rifle and that he never mentioned to her doing any practice with a rifle. (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.23, p.393 [Commission Exhibit 1785])
However..when she testified before the Commission-a different tune was sung as we saw in an earlier post.
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What practice time?
The lack of same by the FBI testers is my point
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I've already mentioned that she did...further noting that Marina stated at first.....she had never seen OSWALD practice with his rifle or any other firearm and he had never told her that he was going to practice. (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.763 [Commission Exhibit 1401])
She did not recall that he [Oswald] ever practiced firing the rifle either in New Orleans or in Dallas. She does not think he did practice in New Orleans because as a rule he stayed home when he was not working. When he did go out, she did not see him take the rifle. (ibid., p.778 [Commission Exhibit 1403])
She said that she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with a rifle and that he never mentioned to her doing any practice with a rifle. (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.23, p.393 [Commission Exhibit 1785])
However..when she testified before the Commission-a different tune was sung as we saw in an earlier post.
Apparently if she didn't see him take the rifle out it was because he always got to the door before calling to her that he was going out, according to her. I recall her saying that she suspected he was taking the rifle with him at those times.
It that differs from her testimony 15 years later, then those later pronouncements may have been influenced by what I understand to be a change of heart as to whether she thought him guilty.
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When the two large fragments recovered from the limo and the bullet found on Connally's stretcher at Parkland were matched to that rifle.
Take a look at the fragments.... The width of the groove on the copper jacket measures 1.5mm across.....The lands in the rifling of a Mannlicher Carcano barrel measure 2 mm across... This bullet was NOT fired from a Mannlicher Carcano.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread
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Apparently if she didn't see him take the rifle out it was because he always got to the door before calling to her that he was going out, according to her. I recall her saying that she suspected he was taking the rifle with him at those times.
It that differs from her testimony 15 years later, then those later pronouncements may have been influenced by what I understand to be a change of heart as to whether she thought him guilty.
And she never said she saw him coming back in with a rifle.
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And she never said she saw him coming back in with a rifle.
Which fits with an intent to conceal the rifle from her, if what Marina suspected was true.
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Take a look at the fragments.... The width of the groove on the copper jacket measures 1.5mm across.....The lands in the rifling of a Mannlicher Carcano barrel measure 2 mm across... This bullet was NOT fired from a Mannlicher Carcano.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread
Why is everybody so afraid to measure the width of the groove?.... I've sent PM to many members requesting that they use the scale and measure the width of the groove, but nobody has posted any reply.... Why?? This isn't rocket science....Even an elementary school student can use a ruler.
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Which fits with an intent to **conceal the rifle** from her, if what Marina suspected was true.
** Easily** ...He cleverly shoved it down his pants just like he did when he took it into the TSBD ::)
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(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/29/14/35C8D04800000578-3662487-image-a-1_1467206975583.jpg)
Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it?
Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe.
Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw?
Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much.
Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking around.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir
...........
Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether?
Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact.
Mr. SPECTER - How many shots did you hear?
Mr. WORRELL - Four.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe anything at about that time?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.
...... Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot.
A clue that the rifle that was found was not the same rifle that was sticking out the window. I only see 4 inches of barrel on the MC before the wooden stock.
James Worrells gave a lengthy testimony of a man he saw run out the back door of the TSBD....wearing a sport jacket ... running north on Houston and then east on Pacific.
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(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/29/14/35C8D04800000578-3662487-image-a-1_1467206975583.jpg) A clue that the rifle that was found was not the same rifle that was sticking out the window. I only see 4 inches of barrel on the MC before the wooden stock.
James Worrells gave a lengthy testimony of a man he saw run out the back door of the TSBD....wearing a sport jacket ... running north on Houston and then east on Pacific.
No assassin in his right mind would risk running away from the scene....Nothing would drawn attention to him quicker than running away..... If there had been a shooter in the TSBD ( which there wasn't) he would NOT have dashed away from the scene...
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No assassin in his right mind would risk running away from the scene....Nothing would drawn attention to him quicker than running away..... If there had been a shooter in the TSBD ( which there wasn't) he would NOT have dashed away from the scene...
No Assassin in his right mind would cramp himself into that SN and arrange boxes that only hinder him taking a good firing position.
No Assassin in their right mind would stick his rifle so far out the window that its easily seen. What is amazing is that MORE people did not see the rifle in the window. Withdrew the rifle so slowly that Bob Jackson, and Malcolm Couch saw it. That's not an Assassin in his right mind, for sure.
However, if its a conspirator who is trying make it APPEAR like the person who is doing the shooting is not in their right mind, then it might be a reason to do this crazy method, including using rifle with misaligned scope, and then hiding it in the boxes. Its MEANT to create the ILLUSION the gunman must be crazy: Ie: Exactly that "Crazy Defector Marxist Oswald".
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No assassin in his right mind would risk running away from the scene....Nothing would drawn attention to him quicker than running away.....
If Worrell was correct...whoever it was got away clean anyway, and he [a kid at the time] was the only one who glimpsed it?
However, there is this FBI report [3 pages]---- https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11575#relPageId=239&tab=page
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George DeMohrenschildt wrote that Oswald owned a Beretta [model not specified]
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George DeMohrenschildt wrote that Oswald owned a Beretta [model not specified]
George De M also wrote a manuscript entitled "I'm Just A Patsy" , didn't he? If anybody would have known that Lee was just a Patsy...It would have been George.
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also author=Bill Chapman link=topic=1745.msg45762#msg45762 date=1551248661]
Yet you believe her [he means Marina's] HCSA testimony it seems. How convenient.
Must have pulled that one out of his backside...I never wrote any such thing.
For the know-nothings that believe in the gunman-Oswald only let me square you away. You obviously know nothing about rifles ..nothing about shooting them and nothing about the military. All U S Marine recruits are required to pass a minimum Marksman rating..no exceptions.
That means dedicated time at the range day after day until they get it right. The drill instructor will see that they get it right. They will instruct them with vigor. If a Marine recruit has not qualified by the appropriate time they will stay at the range until midnight with a flashlight in their mouth if necessary to pass rifle certification. Any testimony about Oswald's lax rifle performance or disinterest was ignored. Oswald was not infantry..he was assigned to radar school. During one of his leaves from the Marines, Oswald hunted with his brother Robert, using a .22 caliber bolt-action rifle belonging either to Robert or Robert's in-laws.
Replied to umpteen times---so what? This made him a killer? There was another friend shooting with them. I understand Oswald hit nothing or at least conspired to assassinate a rabbit using triangulated rifle fire.
All of this speculation about Oswald's rifle capability is a red herring. All of the evidence found indicated that it was Oswald alone who shot and killed JFK. NO OTHER SUSPECT HAS BEEN FOUND WHO COULD HAVE BEEN THE SHOOTER!
Yawn. No other suspect was ever sought. Try again.
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Must have pulled that one out of his backside...I never wrote any such thing.
For the know-nothings that believe in the gunman-Oswald only let me square you away. You obviously know nothing about rifles ..nothing about shooting them and nothing about the military. All U S Marine recruits are required to pass a minimum Marksman rating..no exceptions.
That means dedicated time at the range day after day until they get it right. The drill instructor will see that they get it right. They will instruct them with vigor. If a Marine recruit has not qualified by the appropriate time they will stay at the range until midnight with a flashlight in their mouth if necessary to pass rifle certification. Any testimony about Oswald's lax rifle performance or disinterest was ignored. Oswald was not infantry..he was assigned to radar school.
Replied to umpteen times---so what? This made him a killer? There was another friend shooting with them. I understand Oswald hit nothing or at least conspired to assassinate a rabbit using triangulated rifle fire. Yawn. No other suspect was ever sought. Try again.
For the know-nothings that believe in the gunman-Oswald only let me square you away. You obviously know nothing about rifles ..nothing about shooting them and nothing about the military. All U S Marine recruits are required to pass a minimum Marksman rating..no exceptions.
That means dedicated time at the range day after day until they get it right. The drill instructor will see that they get it right. They will instruct them with vigor.
When Lee was a recruit, he trained with one of the finest rifles in the world... The semi-automatic M-1 Garand .... A rifle that when placed in the hands of an Expert From Germany ( for example) who may have been a sharpshooter with a Mauser ...would still might not be qualified as a sharpshooter with the M-1.
Simply because a man qualifies well with one rifle does not mean that he can fire any rifle in the world with equal precision.
And One of the poorest rifles for rapid fire work is the Mannlicher Carcano.
But the no nothings don't know these simple facts.... Thet are so stupid that they believe that Lee Oswald could have picked up that rusty old carcano with the scope mounted askew and knocked the eye out of a fly at 100 yards... PATHETIC!
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All of this speculation about Oswald's rifle capability is a red herring. All of the evidence found indicated that it was Oswald alone who shot and killed JFK. Regardless of how he scored in the firing test while in the USMC, how many times Oswald worked the bolt to familiarize himself with the weapon, how many times he managed to practice with the rifle while in New Orleans, whether you believe Marina, the accuracy of the MC with and without using the scope (nobody knows if Oswald actually used the scope), the actual timeline of the sequence of shots if the first shot missed could be as long as over 8 seconds, the evidence strongly supports the fact that it was Oswald who was the SN shooter. NO OTHER SUSPECT HAS BEEN FOUND WHO COULD HAVE BEEN THE SHOOTER! Oswald pulled the trigger three times, missed the first shot, scored a hit on JFK that went through his neck, out his throat, entered JBC as the 6.5 mm WC copper jacketed bullet was beginning to yaw at approx. Z224, went out JBC's chest, struck his right wrist, and made a small puncture wound in his left thigh. That bullet, CE-399, was recovered at Parkland Hospital and accounts for two (the other being CE-567 and CE-569) of the three bullets fired. It's that freaking fu****g simple, yet you dumb a** commie loving, wife beating, turncoat Oswald defenders just refuse to face the facts just as the dumb a** Flat Earth believers refuse to believe in what is the most obvious of facts.
In order to support the myriad of theories to cast doubt on Oswald's guilt you fail each and every time in providing an alternate theory backed by reasonable evidence to support the theory that Oswald was not the shooter. Every time some half a***d unreasonable point is brought out by you guys it's countered by reasonable, effective, and verifiable evidence that completely shuts the door to further inquiry but you still persist because your life revolves around trying proving the unprovable by inventing unsupportable scenarios. It's your life and you can live it as you choose but you will never be at peace with yourselves because you're emotionally glued to a lost cause.
Why would anyone need a theory when we are not done laughing at the theory you support? There's only one fact we know- Oswald is 100% innocent. Really, the way you should be thinking about this is to just prove Oswald did it. Guess what? You can't, so naturally, you are left looking like fool supporting some theory that was cobbled together by a bunch of incompetent yahoos. You need to understand how much of a sucker you are to believe such a silly story, but I imagine you fell for it when the authorities used the full name, so basically they had you at LEE HARVEY OSWALD and from there you fell in love with this whole ridiculous story. How embarrassing
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Why would anyone need a theory when we are not done laughing at the theory you support? There's only one fact we know- Oswald is 100% innocent. Really, the way you should be thinking about this is to just prove Oswald did it. Guess what? You can't, so naturally, you are left looking like fool supporting some theory that was cobbled together by a bunch of incompetent yahoos. You need to understand how much of a sucker you are to believe such a silly story, but I imagine you fell for it when the authorities used the full name, so basically they had you at LEE HARVEY OSWALD and from there you fell in love with this whole ridiculous story. How embarrassing
How embarrassing !
Especially embarrassing to those who think of themselves as infallible, superior, intellectuals who could never be duped.... But as some wise man observed a long time ago.... The more conceited and arrogant the man, the easier to it is to dupe him.
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It's that freaking fu****g simple, yet you dumb a** commie loving, wife beating, turncoat Oswald defenders just refuse to face the facts just as the dumb a** Flat Earth believers refuse to believe in what is the most obvious of facts.
Seems that Oscar is developing serious emotional issues. I suggest obtaining a prescription for Prozac.
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The lack of same by the FBI testers is my point
Not true, the FBI testers couldn't even hit the target using the wonky scope. Why didn't Oswald sight-in the scope when he was out shooting at leaves, as Jeanne deMohrenschildt claimed?
LHO - Hunter of Fascists Leaves
ETA: corrected, thx JI
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Not true, the FBI testers couldn't even hit the target using the wonky scope. Why didn't Oswald sight-in the scope when he was out shooting at leaves, as Marina claimed?
LHO - Hunter of Fascists Leaves
I think that was actually Jeanne deMohrenschildt.
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Seems that Oscar is developing serious emotional issues. I suggest obtaining a prescription for Prozac.
LOL
So you've tried it yourself. Got it.
The hits just keep on comin'
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LOL So you've tried it yourself. Got it. The hits just keep on comin'
Weak things---A bayou swamp...sinkholes...Bill Chapmans arguments.
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Not true, the FBI testers couldn't even hit the target using the wonky scope. Why didn't Oswald sight-in the scope when he was out shooting at leaves, as Marina claimed?
LHO - Hunter of Fascists Leaves
Hunter of Walker first
;)
Oswald had a feel for the bolt action, others only had a few minutes to try it
Practice makes perfect
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Oswald had a feel for the bolt action, others only had a few minutes to try it
Practice makes perfect
...and you know this how?
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Hunter of Walker first
;)
Oswald had a feel for the bolt action, others only had a few minutes to try it
Practice makes perfect
Oswald had a feel for the bolt action, --------Practice makes perfect
Yer an idiot Crapman.... If you'd handled a Carcano for yourself perhaps you would not appear as such a dumbass.....
Nobody could overcome the cranky stiff opening of the bolt of the rifle ....no matter how much they practiced...
Unless the rifled was locked securely in a rifle vise the opening of the bolt pulls the rifle off target every time it is opened to eject a spent shell...
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...and you know this how?
AFAIK:
Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire
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AFAIK:Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire
AFAIK: --Means he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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AFAIK: --Means he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Challenge what I said
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Challenge what I said
Get that NYTimes edition of fluff and challenge yourself.
Preacher Ross will help, he is very fond of the same edition and I believe you two will hit it off big.
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AFAIK:
Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire
You said "Oswald had a feel for the bolt action". How do you know this?
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AFAIK:
Dry firing is an excellent way of aquiring the 'feel' needed to operate this particular rifle
The rifle's firing pin somewhat fragile condition limited the time each tester was allowed to dry fire
Oswald had a feel for the bolt action, --------Practice makes perfect
Yer an idiot Crapman.... If you'd handled a Carcano for yourself perhaps you would not appear as such a dumbass.....
Nobody could overcome the cranky stiff opening of the bolt of the rifle ....no matter how much they practiced...
Unless the rifled was locked securely in a rifle vise the opening of the bolt pulls the rifle off target every time it is opened to eject a spent shell...
Hey Crapman... You've changed yer tune.... You first bleated about Lee Oswald having a feel for the bolt action ( which you don't have one iota of evidence to support that wild statement) and now you've made an even wilder statement that Lee dry fired the carcano.
Operating the bolt ( as you first stated) is NOT the same as "dry firing".... But either of your ideas ( or both of them) are totally unsupported by any evidence that he
operated the bolt repeatedly, or dry fired the rifle.....
And only a ignoramus would argue that either exercise contributes much toward becoming a world class Sharpshooter ( as the imaginary shooter in the TSBD would have to have been)
Bottom line...Lee would have had to have burned dozens of rounds to become proficient with that carcano.
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When the Army tested the Carcano, using 3 expert marksman, they concluded a person would need considerable experience with
weapons and considerable experience in paticular with the Carcano to make the shots proposed by the WC.
Aside from the scope being misaligned and needing shims added before it could be adjusted and the iron sights being sighted
@ 200mtrs, which caused the rifle to fire high at lesser distances, they found two other dificulties when firing the Carcano.
First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between
shots.
Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.
They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39#relPageId=449&tab=page
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume III
Current Section: Ronald Simmons
~snip~
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to
shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?
Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I
think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the
target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.
~snip~
Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean--do
you mean accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon?
Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required
to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice?
Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. But familiarity with the trigger
would best be achieved with some firing.
~snip~
Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing?
Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the
recoil impulse. And I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil
of the weapon.
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull.
When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to
have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to.
Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up?
Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you
feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired,
and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder into
the weapon.
~snip~
-
When the Army tested the Carcano, using 3 expert marksman, they concluded a person would need considerable experience with
weapons and considerable experience in paticular with the Carcano to make the shots proposed by the WC.
Aside from the scope being misaligned and needing shims added before it could be adjusted and the iron sights being sighted
@ 200mtrs, which caused the rifle to fire high at lesser distances, they found two other dificulties when firing the Carcano.
First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between
shots.
Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.
They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39#relPageId=449&tab=page
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume III
Current Section: Ronald Simmons
~snip~
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to
shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?
Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I
think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the
target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.
~snip~
Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean--do
you mean accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon?
Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required
to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice?
Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. But familiarity with the trigger
would best be achieved with some firing.
~snip~
Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing?
Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the
recoil impulse. And I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil
of the weapon.
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull.
When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to
have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to.
Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up?
Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you
feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired,
and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder into
the weapon.
~snip~
First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between
shots.
Yes ...That has been my experience also....The carcano has a tendency to rotate counter clockwise when opening the bolt to eject a spend shell. The reason is:.. The stiff firing pin spring is compressed on the opening stroke of the bolt. Once that spring is compressed and latched the tester can close the bolt and operate it without much effort. Therefore simply practicing without pulling the trigger is worse than not practicing at all, because it's unrealistic practice.
Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.
Yes that's right....The trigger pull is rough...It has a long take up and it requires more muscle than most rifles, and then is unpredictable ......
They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.
EXACTLY!!.... And I would hasten to point out that there isn't one iota of evidence that Lee Oswald ever fired even ONE live round in a carcano.
-
You said "Oswald had a feel for the bolt action". How do you know this?
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the hack porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
-
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the hack porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
If she never saw it, how did she know that?s what the noise was?
-
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the hack porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
So Marina didn't actually SEE Lee operating the bolt of a rifle....She heard a noise that she ASSUMED was the noise of the bolt being operated....And It might well have been true ...The noise could have been the noise of the bolt being operated...BUT... Since it was dark and she couldn't see ....she would have no idea WHERE Lee was holding the rifle when he opened and closed the bolt.....He could well have had the rifle on his lap at the time.....So he was NOT NOT practice firing the rifle Because he sure as hell couldn't see the sights in the dark....
-
Challenge what I said
OK...take all you know about this stuff and put it in a thimble...and it would roll around like a BB in a battleship.
-
How embarrassing !
Especially embarrassing to those who think of themselves as infallible, superior, intellectuals who could never be duped.... But as some wise man observed a long time ago.... The more conceited and arrogant the man, the easier to it is to dupe him.
Been duped lately ever Walt?
-
OK...take all you know about this stuff and put it in a thimble...and it would roll around like a BB in a battleship.
So you can't challenge me, like usual. Got it.
-
You said "Oswald had a feel for the bolt action". How do you know this?
Feel, as compared to any test shooters using Oswald's Carcano
Two reasons:
1) Practice
2) See above
-
Feel, as compared to any test shooters using Oswald's Carcano
Two reasons:
1) Practice
2) See above
And your evidence that he practiced working the bolt on a Carcano is what? That Marina heard a noise from the porch?
-
Been duped lately ever Walt?
Certainly....I've been duped... The world is full of scalawags who will rob you a heart beat. With the advent of the internet the problem has become viral ....
I'm a simply guy and I enjoy helping those who need help.... But NOW, today, I'm a little more careful about judging if the person really does need assistance....
IN fact at the time Lee Oswald was lynched....I thought that Ruby had did us a great service.... But as the facts surfaced I came to realize that I'd been duped....
A damned sucker who believed my ol Unca Sam, and thought that .Edgar Hoover was a demigod.....
-
Wesley Liebeler critiquing the WCR before it was published.
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
Oswald"S RIFLE CAPABILITY
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=236
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle1.jpg)
-snip-
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle2.jpg)
-snip-
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle.jpg)
-
So you can't challenge me, like usual. Got it.
What is up with this challenge crap? I could wit stomp you with half my brain tied behind my back.
-
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/chapman-bozo.jpg)
-
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/chapman-bozo.jpg)
Love it!
Thumb1:
Time for your nap, John.
Bill Chapman
Hunter of Trolls
-
And your evidence that he practiced working the bolt on a Carcano is what? That Marina heard a noise from the porch?
I guess y'all had to be there, huh...
-
Wesley Liebeler critiquing the WCR before it was published.
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
Oswald"S RIFLE CAPABILITY
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=236
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle1.jpg)
-snip-
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle2.jpg)
-snip-
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/rifle.jpg)
Snip, snip...
-
What is up with this challenge crap? I could wit stomp you with half my brain tied behind my back.
I've yet to see you 'wit-stomp' anybody but yourself
-
I guess y'all had to be there, huh...
Yeah, that's what I thought. Yet another Chapman claim without evidence.
-
Snip, snip...
Yet another killer Chapman rebuttal.
-
Yet another killer Chapman rebuttal.
snip, snip
equals
cherrypick
-
Yeah, that's what I thought. Yet another Chapman claim without evidence.
Who, me...? Seems you're confusing me with someone who was there..
-
snip, snip
equals
cherrypick
No, snip-snip means removing excess material that doesn't relate to the point being made. You could stand to learn a thing or two about that as well.
-
No, snip-snip means removing excess material that doesn't relate to the point being made. You could stand to learn a thing or two about that as well.
Thing#1: In CTer/JAQer/IOWer FringeVille, snip-snip means removing material inconvenient to conspiracy-monger agendas.
Thing#2: See #1
-
Thing#1: In CTer/JAQer/IOWer FringeVille, snip-snip means removing material inconvenient to conspiracy-monger agendas.
Please specify what material he removed that is "material inconvenient to conspiracy-monger agendas".
-
Billy Bozo!
That is a riot...well done. Let's pull his string (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Clapping.gif)
Blah blah yak yak
Ever notice that Chaps [his own favorite poster] actually has to respond to every single comma and period but never to a question mark ?
You talk the talk, do you walk the walk ?
My reply------
Go back to reply #51----- When, where, and how did Oswald manage to practice firing this rifle that he never had?
-
To replicate the 3 shots in 5 to 6 seconds and score 2 hits and 1 the headshot at the longest distance, one merely needs to completely ignore the ACTUAL condition of the ACTUAL rifle used by the gunman (allegedly an MC rifle) and also ignore the ACTUAL condition of the cramped space in the SN, and above all else, not have a 15.5 inch open window space to shoot thru, or a tree in the way part of the time, or any other ACTUAL condition the gunman had, such as NOT being able to work the bolt from 12:25 to 12:30 (otherwise clak clak noise would have been heard by Harold Norman BEFORE the shooting started).
Note also: the scope was malfunctioning, and could not be aligned except by unscrewing the actual mount, place a shim under it, and screw the mount back into place.
-
Snip, snip...
Here's the link to the document I snipped from and which, by the way, I included for skeptics.
Please post what you feel is important and was left out.
MARY FERRELL FOUNDATION
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=236
-
Here's the link to the document I snipped from and which, by the way, I included for skeptics.
Please post what you feel is important and was left out.
MARY FERRELL FOUNDATION
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=236
We await Chappers contribution. :D
-
We await Chappers contribution. :D
Like we would await a leper to give us a hand.....
-
That is a riot...well done. Let's pull his string (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Clapping.gif)
Ever notice that Chaps [his own favorite poster] actually has to respond to every single comma and period but never to a question mark ?My reply------
Go back to reply #51----- When, where, and how did Oswald manage to practice firing this rifle that he never had?
Point out where I said 'blah blah yak yak'
Also point out where I regularly respond to punctuation errors.
Posters should leave a space between the reply and the post being quoted.
But in your case, a shoddy layout seems more appropriate.
-
Here's the link to the document I snipped from and which, by the way, I included for skeptics.
Please post what you feel is important and was left out.
MARY FERRELL FOUNDATION
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=236
I appreciate that Gary.
-
Here's the link to the document I snipped from and which, by the way, I included for skeptics.
Please post what you feel is important and was left out.
I might just have to compile a canonical list of things we're still waiting for Chapman to answer.
-
Please specify what material he removed that is "material inconvenient to conspiracy-monger agendas".
I stand corrected in Gary's case.
However, I remain firm in my stance & observation that cherrypicking remains the lifeblood of CTroll Nation.
snip, snip
-
I might just have to compile a canonical list of things we're still waiting for Chapman to answer.
Seems I'm a threat
-
Seems I'm a threat
No, you just make a lot of claims that you can't support. Like this one.
That's the real reason he didn't want Marina to see what he was doing.
-
No, you just make a lot of claims that you can't support. Like this one.
::)
Again with the cherrypicking
Man up and attach the 'chattering teeth' graphic
It's a tongue-in-cheek post, Sherlock
-
Again with the cherrypicking
Man up and attach the 'chattering teeth' graphic
It's a tongue-in-cheek post, Sherlock
It has nothing to do with your chattering teeth.
Why did you say that Lee didn't want Marina to see what he was doing when he was sitting out on the porch? Did you just make that up to be "tongue-in-cheek" or is that a back-pedal?
-
It has nothing to do with your chattering teeth.
Why did you say that Lee didn't want Marina to see what he was doing when he was sitting out on the porch? Did you just make that up to be "tongue-in-cheek" or is that a back-pedal?
I've already answered this in a post to which you have not replied
-
I've already answered this in a post to which you have not replied
Time stamps must elude you too.