JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on February 20, 2019, 10:24:43 PM

Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 20, 2019, 10:24:43 PM
For purposes of cross referencing the people in this photo (Altgens-6) with those in the Zapruder film, let it be noted that we can see hard hat-wearing A. J. Millican in both, and that in the Z-film there seems to be a woman in a blue raincoat between Unger's and Roberdau's "Jane Berry" and "Maggie Brown,"  who can also be (barely) seen wearing a light-colored headscarf in Betzner-3 and/or Willis-5, just like my little "June" Dishong is wearing in full-frame Altgens-6.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens6fullframe.jpg)

Fwiw, "June" seems to have been Dishong's nickname. Her true full name was Mrs. Inez Juanita Hart Dishong (Dishong's an old English surname), and she was born around 1909 in Minnesota. She was apparently married to Ralph E. Dishong and was living in Irving,Texas, at the time of the assassination.
https://www-ancestry-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Missouri/Juanita-Dishong_312j45/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&aoh=15507024549679&amp_ct=1550702496583&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.com%2F1940-census%2Fusa%2FMissouri%2FJuanita-Dishong_312j45


Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 12, 2019, 07:41:26 PM
Thomas,
Would you kindly please explain why you replace Dishong.classic for this newer version? For so long she was noted on Roberdeau's map as being next to Karan Westbrook, but we know that is not right. Dishong's same day journal entry indicates she wore a jacket to the parade, and then latter removed it. The Cabluck photo shows that  jacket hanging from her left arm. Your Dishong.new is wearing a long coat. Here is Don's announcement on alt.conspiracy.jfk some 15 years ago.
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk.narkive.com/FQCF1h4Y/june-dishong-s-attack-observations-released

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 02:15:36 AM
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Thomas,
Would you kindly please explain why you replace Dishong.classic for this newer version? For so long she was noted on Roberdeau's map as being next to Karan Westbrook, but we know that is not right. Dishong's same day journal entry indicates she wore a jacket to the parade, and then latter removed it. The Cabluck photo shows that  jacket hanging from her left arm. Your Dishong.new is wearing a long coat. Here is Don's announcement on alt.conspiracy.jfk some 15 years ago.
https://alt.conspiracy.jfk.narkive.com/FQCF1h4Y/june-dishong-s-attack-observations-released

James,

Thanks for asking.

IIRC, I did some googling about a year ago and found on a genealogy website (or a people-finder website or some-such thing) an "Inez Juanita Hart Dishong, born about 1909" who was living in, or had lived in, Irving, Texas (she died in 1998 and would have been around 53 years old at the time of the assassination). You can probably find a link to that source and/or the info contained therein in a post I made at the time at the EF.

Anyway, I intuited that "Inez" and "Juanita" were probably Hispanic names, and based on that, I intuited that she was probably fairly short in stature, both of which "My Dishong" appears to be in Altgens-6. I also intuited that "June" was her more Anglo-sounding nickname. ("Dishong" itself is an old English name.)

Another thing that "factored in" was that, after I'd convinced myself and a few others at the EF that the traditional (dark-complected) "Gloria Calvary" (sic) in Robin Unger's Z-frame and in Don Roberdeau's map must have been self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, instead, Sandy Larsen and I started wondering where the real Gloria Calvery was in the Z-film, and tentatively concluded that the group of four Southwestern Publishing Company colleagues who claimed in their FBI statements to have watched the motorcade together on Elm Street -- Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook -- probably comprised the group of four headscarf-wearing women in Zapruder, and since that seemed to be the case, especially after our spoting in Couch-Darnell a black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing woman at the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot, who was in very close proximity to a woman on the steps wearing a white dress and a white headscarf, led me to ... gasp ... speculate that "June" Dishong, who worked at a garment factory a few blocks away and who, according to Westbrook's FBI statement, apparently watched the motorcade with said Southwestern Publishing group, may have decided to "follow suit" and wear her headscarf, too.

Two more things that"factored in":

1) When you look closely at Betzner-3, Willis-5, and Zapruder, there seems to be another, probably much shorter, woman in that headscarf-wearing group, someone who is so short as to be hard to spot in the photos and the film,

... and ...

2) Using hardhat A. J. Millican and blond journalist Mary Woodward in Altgens-6 and in Zapruder as "landmarks," it's easy to see that the far left edge of un-cropped Altgens-6 (where My Dishong is standing after having waved at JFK about three seconds earlier) seems to end right where the line of four headscarf-wearing women I've been talking about, above, begins in Zapruder.


As you can see, there's a terrible, terrible, terrible amount of highly verboten intuiting and speculating (detective-like thinking?) on my part, but IMHO, the woman at the far left of un-cropped Altgens-6 looks to me as though she could be a 53 year-old Hispanic (or half-Hispanic) woman, and she's in exactly the right place to have watched the motorcade with the just "off stage left" four-member Southwest Publishing group that's so easy to see in Zapruder, and she is ... gasp ... wearing a headscarf, just like the other members of that apparently "group cohesiveness"-conscious (or unconscious -- LOL) group.

LOL


Edit: Since Inez Juanita Hart (Dishong) was born in Minnesota about 1909, I'm now starting to think that she might have been Native American in ancestry ...

Edit #2:  Here's a photo I just now found of her and her husband's gravestone in the Oak Grove Memorial Cemetery in Irving, Dallas County, Texas:

http://allenwheatley.bravehost.com/Texas/Dallas/OakGrove/D/DISHONG_Ralph_M_and_Juanita_H.JPG

... which I got "turned onto" by a message on this website:

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/surnames.dishong/145/mb.ashx



-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)



Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 06:57:20 AM
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For purposes of cross referencing the people in this photo (Altgens-6) with those in the Zapruder film, let it be noted that we can see hard hat-wearing A. J. Millican and some of the people around him in both (e.g., journalist Mary Woodward https://www.jfk.org/oral-history-project-memory-2017/mary-woodward-circled/ ).

In the Z-film there seems to be a woman in a blue raincoat who is pretty much hidden between Unger's-Roberdau's Maggie Brown (correct) and "Jane Berry" (wrong), which woman's head can also be (barely) seen wearing a light-colored headscarf in Betzner-3 and Willis-5, just like my little ol' "June" Dishong is wearing in full-frame Altgens-6, right there at the beginning of the ("off stage left") Southwestern Publishing Company contingent.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens6fullframe.jpg)

Fwiw, "June" seems to have been Dishong's nickname. Her true full name was Mrs. Inez Juanita Hart Dishong (Dishong's an old English surname), and she was born around 1909 in Minnesota. She was apparently married to Ralph E. Dishong and was living in Irving,Texas, at the time of the assassination.
https://www-ancestry-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Missouri/Juanita-Dishong_312j45/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&aoh=15507024549679&amp_ct=1550702496583&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.com%2F1940-census%2Fusa%2FMissouri%2FJuanita-Dishong_312j45

Edited a bit and bumped.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 13, 2019, 03:20:56 PM
Do you have any evidence how tall Dishong actually was?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 03:49:42 PM
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Do you have any evidence how tall Dishong actually was?

Iacoletti,

No.

Shall I have here exhumed and measured for you?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)


Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 13, 2019, 04:12:21 PM
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Iacoletti,

No.

Shall I have here exhumed and measured for you?

Why bother when you can just determine height based on a Hispanic name?   ::)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Royell Storing on March 13, 2019, 04:31:41 PM


     Among the Many questions surrounding this Altgens Photo is the Gent in the Hat pictured above the woman being discussed. This guy for whatever reason is Not close to facing/looking at the JFK Limo. The man has been alleged to be sitting on top of a short wall, but in order for this to be true he would have to be situated atop the wall as if he were riding a horse. 
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 08:51:43 PM
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Why bother when you can just determine height based on a Hispanic name?   ::)

Or possibly American Indian, from New Mexico Minnesota?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  Now that the "official," really really really "set-in-stone" position of Westbrook has been switched four spaces to the right with her 2017 Sixth Floor Museum interview with Stephen "Smilin' and Noddin'" Fagin, with whom do you believe Dishong is standing (on her left) in Unger's largely xxxxed-up Z-frame?

An unknown Mysto Woman?

Gasp ... Maybe the mastermind of the whole "operation"?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 13, 2019, 08:59:46 PM
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PS  Now that the "official," really really really "set-in-stone" position of Westbrook has been switched four spaces to the right with her 2017 Sixth Floor Museum interview with Stephen "Smilin' and Noddin'" Fagin, with whom do you believe Dishong is standing (on her left) in Unger's largely xxxxed-up Z-frame?

No clue.

It's not very rational or scientific to make up an answer and then look for evidence that you guessed right.  Try letting the evidence itself determine what your conclusion is.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 13, 2019, 11:20:27 PM
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No clue.

It's not very rational or scientific to make up an answer and then look for evidence that you guessed right.  Try letting the evidence itself determine what your conclusion is.

Iacoletti,

Possible "odd woman, out," eh?

Now that you've decided dark-complectioned Stella Mae Jacob left her two colleagues somewhere else and supplanted somebody (Reed? Hicks? Dishong??) in the five-person Calvary Group.

LOL

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 14, 2019, 07:39:18 PM
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For purposes of cross referencing the people in this photo (Altgens-6) with those in the Zapruder film, let it be noted that we can see hard hat-wearing A. J. Millican in both, and that in the Z-film there seems to be a woman in a blue raincoat between Unger's and Roberdau's "Jane Berry" and "Maggie Brown,"  who can also be (barely) seen wearing a light-colored headscarf in Betzner-3 and/or Willis-5, just like my little "June" Dishong is wearing in full-frame Altgens-6.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens6fullframe.jpg)

Fwiw, "June" seems to have been Dishong's nickname. Her true full name was Mrs. Inez Juanita Hart Dishong (Dishong's an old English surname), and she was born around 1909 in Minnesota. She was apparently married to Ralph E. Dishong and was living in Irving,Texas, at the time of the assassination.
https://www-ancestry-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Missouri/Juanita-Dishong_312j45/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&aoh=15507024549679&amp_ct=1550702496583&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.com%2F1940-census%2Fusa%2FMissouri%2FJuanita-Dishong_312j45

Thomas,
Thanks for sharing your reasons pointing to your alternate blue coat Dishong. I must say Dishong's family memories, per Roberdeau, and her own personal notes are compelling for me. But who knows, maybe someday a family member will come up with photos that will settle the matter.

Anyway, thinking about your original posting I modeled for my own interest the witnesses from about the Stemmons's sign to Millican. Your ?new? Dishong was rendered center frame in bright green for easy location. Views from Zapruder, Betzner, Altgens and Moorman approximate locations are shown with insets taken from Robin Unger's collection. Moorman does not give a clear image to decide if, or where, she is standing at that time. However, Gloria Calvery stands out in profile fairly easy to recognize :-).

(https://i.imgur.com/l2BcVUI.jpg)

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 15, 2019, 12:33:44 AM
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Thomas,
Thanks for sharing your reasons pointing to your alternate blue coat Dishong. I must say Dishong's family memories, per Roberdeau, and her own personal notes are compelling for me. But who knows, maybe someday a family member will come up with photos that will settle the matter.

Anyway, thinking about your original posting I modeled for my own interest the witnesses from about the Stemmons's sign to Millican. Your ?new? Dishong was rendered center frame in bright green for easy location. Views from Zapruder, Betzner, Altgens and Moorman approximate locations are shown with insets taken from Robin Unger's collection. Moorman does not give a clear image to decide if, or where, she is standing at that time. However, Gloria Calvery stands out in profile fairly easy to recognize :-).

(https://i.imgur.com/l2BcVUI.jpg)

James,

Thanks!

Excellent job, and a great aide in helping members and guests see, in Zapruder and Atgens-6 (and, hey, maybe even in Betzner-3) the rather short, headscarf-wearing woman I've been talking about.

Regarding Dishong's poignant same-day, written-down memories of the assassination, I don't see how they conflict with my theory as to where she was standing during the motorcade.

However, Roberdeau's claim that at least one of her relatives positively identified her in Betzner-3(?) as one of women standing about twenty feet nearer the Triple Underpass than "My Dishong" bugs the heck out of me.  LOL

I can only speculate that Roberdeau might have consciously or unconsciously "guided" that relative to that particular (unknown, imho) woman in Betzner-3 because he knew from Westbrook's FBI statement  that Dishong had watched the motorcade with Westbrook and Calvery, et al., and because he had already made up his mind (incorrectly, as we now know) exactly where Calvery was.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  In Betzner-3 (a crop of which you posted, above) I don't see your woman in the blue dress between "Lady All In White" and "My Dishong" (whom you highlighted in green), so that's a bit of a mystery to me ...

PPS  Thanks for including Moorman "3", James.
I had totally forgotten about that photo. 
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 15, 2019, 06:52:17 AM
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Mr Graves, are you referring to KarenWestbrookImage as "the woman in the blue dress between Lady All In White and Your Dishong"? In Betzner3, it appears to me that the SSA in the SS Limo is blocking two LadyImages, who I believe represent KaranHicks and CarolReed, with GloriaCalveryImage and KarenWestbrookImage visible. The LadyImage in question, who I had previously referred to as BlueCoatLadyImage, appears to be barely visible above the view blocking SSA's right shoulder. And, I believe that the attired in green mannequin represents the Image aka BlueCoatLady, that may or may not represent InezJuanitaDishong.

Larry,

I'm talking about James' graphic reproduction of Betzner-3, above, in which he has a woman dressed in blue and wearing a white headscarf standing between "Woman All In White" and "My Dishong" (whom James has highlighted in green for us).

I don't see that woman "in blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in the Betzner-3 photograph, although I do see her in the Zapruder frame.

Based on Westbrook's and Calvery's tall statures as we know them from the December, 1963, Southwestern Publishing photo, I believe that that tall woman dressed in "blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in Zapruder is Karen Westbrook, and that the tall gal at the other end of that line of four headscarf-wearing gals is, of course, Gloria Calvery

I'm just surprised that, although I can see the tilted-down and light-colored-headscarf-covered head of shorty Dishong in Betzner-3, I can't seem to see the tall, darkly-dressed, light-colored-headscarf "Westbrook" next to her in Betzner-3 ... although James apparently can.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  I'm glad that James posted Zapruder frame # 129, above, because in it we can see a small part of shorty Dishong's light-colored headscarf, peeking at us from her position in front of and in between those other gals.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Royell Storing on March 15, 2019, 03:47:28 PM
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Larry,

I'm talking about James' graphic reproduction of Betzner-3, above, in which he has a woman dressed in blue and wearing a white headscarf standing between "Woman All In White" and "My Dishong" (whom James has highlighted in green for us).

I don't see that woman "in blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in the Betzner-3 photograph, although I do see her in the Zapruder frame.

Based on Westbrook's and Calvery's tall statures as we know them from the December, 1963, Southwestern Publishing photo, I believe that that tall woman dressed in "blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in Zapruder is Karen Westbrook, and that the tall gal at the other end of that line of four headscarf-wearing gals is, of course, Gloria Calvery

I'm just surprised that, although I can see the tilted-down and light-colored-headscarf-covered head of shorty Dishong in Betzner-3, I can't seem to see the tall, darkly-dressed, light-colored-headscarf "Westbrook" next to her in Betzner-3 ... although James apparently can.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  I'm glad that James posted Zapruder frame # 129, above, because in it we can see a small part of shorty Dishong's light-colored headscarf, peeking at us from her position in front of and in between those other gals.

      All Monitors are Not created equal, but there IS a distinct Difference between the Colors BLUE & PURPLE.  Referencing the Proper Color above would make the position you are proffering easier to follow while also spurring contributing opinions.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Larry Trotter on March 15, 2019, 06:28:24 PM
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Larry,

I'm talking about James' graphic reproduction of Betzner-3, above, in which he has a woman dressed in blue and wearing a white headscarf standing between "Woman All In White" and "My Dishong" (whom James has highlighted in green for us).

I don't see that woman "in blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in the Betzner-3 photograph, although I do see her in the Zapruder frame.

Based on Westbrook's and Calvery's tall statures as we know them from the December, 1963, Southwestern Publishing photo, I believe that that tall woman dressed in "blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in Zapruder is Karen Westbrook, and that the tall gal at the other end of that line of four headscarf-wearing gals is, of course, Gloria Calvery

I'm just surprised that, although I can see the tilted-down and light-colored-headscarf-covered head of shorty Dishong in Betzner-3, I can't seem to see the tall, darkly-dressed, light-colored-headscarf "Westbrook" next to her in Betzner-3 ... although James apparently can.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  I'm glad that James posted Zapruder frame # 129, above, because in it we can see a small part of shorty Dishong's light-colored headscarf, peeking at us from her position in front of and in between those other gals.

Well, I see her in the supplied cropped Betzner3 Photo. Re-reading my post, if you can see NotTallLadyImage/aka BlueCoatLadyImage,(MrsDishong?), said PersonImage is to KarenWestbrookImage's front-left. And, both LadyImages are visible over the SSA's right shoulder whose head appears to block KaranHicksImage and CarolReedImage in said cropped Betzner3 Photo.
I do believe James sees it correctly. And, this Reply is not meant for debate, as it only confirms what I see represented by the Images as shown in Betzner3 Photo.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 15, 2019, 09:25:19 PM
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Well, I see her in the supplied cropped Betzner3 Photo. Re-reading my post, if you can see NotTallLadyImage/aka BlueCoatLadyImage,(MrsDishong?), said PersonImage is to KarenWestbrookImage's front-left. And, both LadyImages are visible over the SSA's right shoulder whose head appears to block KaranHicksImage and CarolReedImage in said cropped Betzner3 Photo.
I do believe James sees it correctly. And, this Reply is not meant for debate, as it only confirms what I see represented by the Images as shown in Betzner3 Photo.

Dear Larry,

Perhaps what you're seeing to the immediate right of "Woman All In White" in Betzner-3 is "My Dishong," not "Westbrook".

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 15, 2019, 10:17:24 PM
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Larry,

I'm talking about James' graphic reproduction of Betzner-3, above, in which he has a woman dressed in blue and wearing a white headscarf standing between "Woman All In White" and "My Dishong" (whom James has highlighted in green for us).

I don't see that woman "in blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in the Betzner-3 photograph, although I do see her in the Zapruder frame.

Based on Westbrook's and Calvery's tall statures as we know them from the December, 1963, Southwestern Publishing photo, I believe that that tall woman dressed in "blue" and wearing a "white" headscarf in Zapruder is Karen Westbrook, and that the tall gal at the other end of that line of four headscarf-wearing gals is, of course, Gloria Calvery

I'm just surprised that, although I can see the tilted-down and light-colored-headscarf-covered head of shorty Dishong in Betzner-3, I can't seem to see the tall, darkly-dressed, light-colored-headscarf "Westbrook" next to her in Betzner-3 ... although James apparently can.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  I'm glad that James posted Zapruder frame # 129, above, because in it we can see a small part of shorty Dishong's light-colored headscarf, peeking at us from her position in front of and in between those other gals.
Thomas,

About the white headscarf of my rendered Westbrook, my homemade mannequins can only show one color for either hair color or covering e.g. scarfs. For all four rendered POVs the models were completely unchanged. I meant to mention that but did not. Why we fail to see that white scarf in authentic Betzner3 is due to the scarf's position about half way behind the front of her head so we see her dark hair from his POV,. Follow her in early frames roughly 015-032. Don't blink, her head turn is quite rapid but gives us a good side view of her dark hair several inches forward of the front of the scarf.
 (https://i.imgur.com/JORKqh0.gif)

James
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 15, 2019, 10:26:07 PM
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James,

Thanks!

Excellent job, and a great aide in helping members and guests see, in Zapruder and Atgens-6 (and, hey, maybe even in Betzner-3) the rather short, headscarf-wearing woman I've been talking about.

Regarding Dishong's poignant same-day, written-down memories of the assassination, I don't see how they conflict with my theory as to where she was standing during the motorcade.

However, Roberdeau's claim that at least one of her relatives positively identified her in Betzner-3(?) as one of women standing about twenty feet nearer the Triple Underpass than "My Dishong" bugs the heck out of me.  LOL

I can only speculate that Roberdeau might have consciously or unconsciously "guided" that relative to that particular (unknown, imho) woman in Betzner-3 because he knew from Westbrook's FBI statement  that Dishong had watched the motorcade with Westbrook and Calvery, et al., and because he had already made up his mind (incorrectly, as we now know) exactly where Calvery was.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  In Betzner-3 (a crop of which you posted, above) I don't see your woman in the blue dress between "Lady All In White" and "My Dishong" (whom you highlighted in green), so that's a bit of a mystery to me ...

PPS  Thanks for including Moorman "3", James.
I had totally forgotten about that photo.
I was unaware of Dishong's name showing in any FBI report. The online FBI report (CE1381) at the History Matters web site is a searchable PDF, and she did not show up anywhere in that exhibit. I'm not sure her name was known in JFK lore until Roberdeau published his findings.

Her family's recollection were her identifying herself in a LIFE magazine photo as being the fourth person from the Stemmons sign. That seems like a Zapruder frame. I don't know if Betzner3 or Bronson were published in LIFE. I interpret his words about her appearing in Betzner and Bronson as Don's commentary.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 16, 2019, 01:37:37 AM
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I was unaware of Dishong's name showing in any FBI report. The online FBI report (CE1381) at the History Matters web site is a searchable PDF, and she did not show up anywhere in that exhibit. I'm not sure her name was known in JFK lore until Roberdeau published his findings.

Her family's recollection were her identifying herself in a LIFE magazine photo as being the fourth person from the Stemmons sign. That seems like a Zapruder frame. I don't know if Betzner3 or Bronson were published in LIFE. I interpret his words about her appearing in Betzner and Bronson as Don's commentary.


James,

Going from memory here and I might be wrong, but I believe that although Dishong herself was not interviewed by, nor did she give a statement to, the FBI, she was mentioned in a FBI statement by at least one of the four gals in the Calvary/Hicks/Reed/Westbrook "party" as being a tangential member thereof.

Edit:  Turns out I was very, very, very wrong about that.  Just now re-read the FBI statements of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook and found no mention of Dishong therein.  Don't know how I came up with that silly idea, now.  Maybe because I looked for so many years at the Z-frame labeled by Robin Unger (with help from Thierry "Fake News" Speth and Robin "I'll Get It Right Eventually" Roberdeau, and it brainwashed me into thinking Dishong must have been standing next to Karen Westbrook during the motorcad?


If Dishong's relative (or Dishong, herself) "identified" her/herself from behind in the Zapruder film or a Zapruder frame, one must wonder how accurate they could have possibly been (from behind!), and whether or not they were encouraged to pick out that particular mystery woman as "June".

We already know that Karen Westbrook mis-identified herself in a Zapruder frame in 2017, so apparently it's easy to do.

LOL

Regardless, it's my understanding that Betzner-3 was published in Life magazine in November, 1967.

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/05/page-10.html

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 16, 2019, 02:29:02 AM
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James,

Going from memory here and I might be wrong, but I believe that although Dishong herself was not interviewed by, nor did she give a statement to, the FBI, she was mentioned in a FBI statement by at least one of the four gals in the Calvary/Hicks/Reed/Westbrook "party" as being a tangential member thereof.

Edit: Turns out I was very, very, very wrong about that. Just now re-read the FBI statements of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook and found no mention of Dishong therein.  Don't know how I came up with that silly idea, now.  Maybe because I looked for so many years at the Z-frame labeled by Robin Unger (with help from Thierry "Fake News" Speth and Robin "I'll Get It Right Eventually" Roberdeau), and it brainwashed me into thinking Dishong must have been standing next to Karen Westbrook during the motorcade?


If Dishong's relative (or Dishong, herself) "identified" her/herself from behind in the Zapruder film or a Zapruder frame, one must wonder how accurate they could have possibly been (from behind!), and whether or not they were encouraged to pick out that particular mystery woman as "June".

We already know that Karen Westbrook mis-identified herself in a Zapruder frame in 2017, so apparently it's easy to do.

LOL

Regardless, it's my understanding that Betzner-3 was published in Life magazine in November, 1967.

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/05/page-10.html

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

edited and bumped
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 16, 2019, 03:13:55 AM
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James,

Going from memory here and I might be wrong, but I believe that although Dishong herself was not interviewed by, nor did she give a statement to, the FBI, she was mentioned in a FBI statement by at least one of the four gals in the Calvary/Hicks/Reed/Westbrook "party" as being a tangential member thereof.

Edit:  Turns out I was very, very, very wrong about that.  Just now re-read the FBI statements of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook and found no mention of Dishong therein.  Don't know how I came up with that silly idea, now.  Maybe because I looked for so many years at the Z-frame labeled by Robin Unger (with help from Thierry "Fake News" Speth and Robin "I'll Get It Right Eventually" Roberdeau, and it brainwashed me into thinking Dishong must have been standing next to Karen Westbrook during the motorcad?


If Dishong's relative (or Dishong, herself) "identified" her/herself from behind in the Zapruder film or a Zapruder frame, one must wonder how accurate they could have possibly been (from behind!), and whether or not they were encouraged to pick out that particular mystery woman as "June".

We already know that Karen Westbrook mis-identified herself in a Zapruder feame in 2017, so apparently it's easy to do.

LOL

Regardless, it's my understanding that Betzner-3 was published in Life magazine in November, 1967.

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/05/page-10.html

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

Thanks for that Thomas, but not a problem. Actually, I was kinda pulling for you in a way.. Keep up the good work!
James
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 16, 2019, 03:33:53 AM
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Thanks for that Thomas, but not a problem. Actually, I was kinda pulling for you in a way.. Keep up the good work!
James

James,

So, where do you believe Dishong was standing during the motorcade?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  You were pulling for me? As in past tense? LOL
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 16, 2019, 04:28:04 AM
For what it's worth, Dishong's daughter allegedly told Don Roberdeau that her mother worked in the Higgenbotham-Bailey Building (about five blocks from Dealey Plaza in the general direction of the "Old Red" courthouse).

It's interesting to note that in her "memoir," Dishong alludes to having watched the motorcade with at least one other person from work.

Could it be that she watched it with only one other co-worker, and that that unnamed person was mis-labeled as "Westbrook" in Unger's Z-frame (and in Roberdeau's map) back in the day, i.e., the woman wearing the yellowish-pinkish-orangish dress to the left of (possibly correctly labeled "Dishong") in Unger's infamous Z-frame?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Larry Trotter on March 16, 2019, 05:24:32 AM
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Dear Larry,

Perhaps what you're seeing to the immediate right of "Woman All In White" in Betzner-3 is "My Dishong," not "Westbrook".

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

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The version of the cropped Betzner3 Photo that I am looking at has the LadyImage, aka your "Woman All In White", blocked by the high back seat riding SSA whose name escapes me at this time. And, if in color, B3 would likely indicate a light blue head scarf wearing KarenWestbrookImage attired in a white/light blouse and a blue/green jacket or vest with a matching skirt, with/next to NotVeryTallLadyImage, aka BlueCoatLadyImage, who is also wearing a light color head scarf, to Karen WestbrookImage's front-left.
 That is what I see Tommy, and have seen for some time, and can't imagine any interpretation modification.


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Based on current indications, if correctly identified, the LadyImage attired in a reddish/grayish blouse and dark skirt standing to StellaJacobsImage's left appears to represent InezJuanitaDishong, who appears to be along side LadyImage attired in a beige/yellowish dress. And, NotTallLadyImage remains not positively identified.
At least that would be my indicative information based conclusion.


Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 16, 2019, 11:31:20 AM
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Dear Larry,

Okay.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: James Hackerott on March 16, 2019, 04:58:37 PM
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James,

So, where do you believe Dishong was standing during the motorcade?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

PS  You were pulling for me? As in past tense? LOL
Thomas,
I put her just where she was indicated by Don Roberdeau, A long time ago, in the previous millennium, I was curious to know the ID of the woman to her left. It appears that she was a co-worker of Mrs. Dishong ? both working elsewhere than the TSBD. If your hunch is successful that might open the door for someone to sleuth their identities. No big deal.

p.s. Okay, so I was kinda ?pushing? for you. LOL!
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 17, 2019, 05:51:25 AM
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Thomas,
I put her just where she was indicated by Don Roberdeau, A long time ago, in the previous millennium, I was curious to know the ID of the woman to her left. It appears that she was a co-worker of Mrs. Dishong ? both working elsewhere than the TSBD. If your hunch is successful that might open the door for someone to sleuth their identities. No big deal.

p.s. Okay, so I was kinda ?pushing? for you. LOL!

James,

Gee, thanks!

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy   :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Robin Unger on March 21, 2019, 12:09:26 AM
Altgens 6 crop

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgenscrop_.jpg)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 21, 2019, 01:31:09 AM
Thanks Robin.  I had no friggin' idea what Tommy was talking about.  A picture is worth a thousand words.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Royell Storing on March 21, 2019, 02:21:04 PM
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Altgens 6 crop

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgenscrop_.jpg)

     55+ years later and soooo many questions continue to swirl around this alleged Altgens Photo. (1) Is the woman in Short Sleeves holding a camera up to her face? (2) Why are so many eyewitnesses Not remotely facing in the direction of the JFK Limo as it passes them going down Elm St? (Short Sleeves Woman included)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 21, 2019, 02:46:11 PM
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     55+ years later and soooo many questions continue to swirl around this alleged Altgens Photo. (1) Is the woman in Short Sleeves holding a camera up to her face? (2) Why are so many eyewitnesses Not remotely facing in the direction of the JFK Limo as it passes them going down Elm St? (Short Sleeves Woman included)

Dear Royell,

You sound like a tinfoil hat-wearing "photo alteration" conspiracy theorist.

You should look at a map of Dealey Plaza and realize the curvature of Elm Street, where the smiling, blond-haired, and well-identified Mary Woodward was standing with her three journalist colleagues, the position of Altgens when he took the photo, exactly where JFK's limousine was on Elm Street when then the photo was taken, etc.

The limousine was well past hardhat man A.J. Millican and the others when the photo was taken, and many more cars were still approaching them, including the car that LBJ and his wife were riding in.

D'oh

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 21, 2019, 03:26:37 PM
Yeah, but there's nothing interesting about LBJ.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Royell Storing on March 21, 2019, 04:06:07 PM
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Dear Royell,

You sound like a tinfoil hat-wearing alterationist.

You should look at a map of Dealey Plaza and realize the curvature of Elm Street, where the smiling, blond-haired, and well-identified Mary Woodward was standing with her three journalist colleagues, the position of Altgens when he took the photo, exactly where JFK's limousine was on Elm Street when then the photo was taken, etc.

The limousine was well past hardhat man A.J. Millican and the others when the photo was taken, and many more cars were still approaching them, including the car that LBJ and his wife were riding in.

D'oh

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

      Have You ever attended a parade specifically to Watch 1 Person/Thing? You watch what you came to see Well After it has passed you by. This would include those that came to see Jackie along with the eyes of the casual viewers that were attracted to her Loud Pink Pill Box Hat. Human nature is human nature. Also, if you buy into eyewitnesses looking all over hell's half acre there on Elm St, how is it that Not a single one of these Looky Lou's, or Any JFK Assassination Image managed to capture SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Follow Up Car and then running Up Elm St toward the JFK Limo? This issue along with Prayer Man, the Fire Escape, etc has this image smelling to high heaven. Even Altgens during his WC Testimony questioned whether he could have captured this image based on his assigned physical position vs his camera lens setting limitations. 
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on March 22, 2019, 03:07:01 AM
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      Have You ever attended a parade specifically to Watch 1 Person/Thing? You watch what you came to see Well After it has passed you by. This would include those that came to see Jackie along with the eyes of the casual viewers that were attracted to her Loud Pink Pill Box Hat. Human nature is human nature. Also, if you buy into eyewitnesses looking all over hell's half acre there on Elm St, how is it that Not a single one of these Looky Lou's, or Any JFK Assassination Image managed to capture SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Follow Up Car and then running Up Elm St toward the JFK Limo? This issue along with Prayer Man, the Fire Escape, etc has this image smelling to high heaven. Even Altgens during his WC Testimony questioned whether he could have captured this image based on his assigned physical position vs his camera lens setting limitations.

Dear Royell,

The people "captured" in Altgens-6 got to see JFK's face and Jackie's face as the limousine was approaching the sharp turn, while it was negotiating the curve, while it was nearing them, and while it was passing them on Elm Street.

By that point several of them had evidently experienced enough up-close viewing of the photogenic and charismatic couple as to not have to become fixated on viewing the backs of their heads, as well.

Bummer, huh?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Royell Storing on March 22, 2019, 02:17:25 PM
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Dear Royell,

The people "captured" in Altgens-6 got to see JFK's face and Jackie's face as the limousine was approaching the sharp turn, while it was negotiating the curve, while it was nearing them, and while it was passing them on Elm Street.

By that point several of them had evidently experienced enough up-close viewing of the photogenic and charismatic couple as to not have to become fixated on viewing the backs of their heads, as well.

Bummer, huh?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

     The "bummer" is your description above is Exactly why Zapruder would have/Did Film the JFK Limo making the turn onto Elm St.   Thumb1:
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 06, 2019, 06:05:17 PM
If that is Dishong it finally puts the last piece of the Calvery puzzle in place...

Iacoletti of course will troll this in order to mess it up...

She is immediately to Westbrook's left and is obscured by Westbrook in Zapruder...

For credible analysts (not naysayer cranks), you can see that the woman to the right of Jack Ready in Willis 5 is Westbrook and not Dishong because she is too tall to be the short-heighted Dishong when compared to Calvery...A skilled analyst like myself will see that you can just make-out Calvery's scarf jutting above the head of the man in the back left seat in the Secret Service follow-up car...The height of that barely-visible scarf tells you the woman to Ready's right is Westbrook by height comparison...

 

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 12:27:04 AM
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If that is Dishong it finally puts the last piece of the Calvery puzzle in place...

 BS:

Whether it?s Dishong or not, that tells you exactly nothing about where Westbrook or Calvery are.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 01:55:42 AM
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BS:

Whether it?s Dishong or not, that tells you exactly nothing about where Westbrook or Calvery are.

Iacoletti,

Do you believe blond-haired former journalist Mary Woodward correctly identified herself, as well as journalists Aurellia Alonzo, Ann Donaldson Atterberry, and Margaret "Maggie" Brown Kennedy, in her Sixth Floor Museum interview?

If so, can't you spot blond-haired Woodward and dark-haired Alonzo in Altgens-6?

How about hardhat-wearing A.J. Millican?  Can you spot A.J. in Zapruder and Altgens-6?

-- MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 07, 2019, 02:06:07 AM
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BS:

Whether it?s Dishong or not, that tells you exactly nothing about where Westbrook or Calvery are.


That's stupid...I have repeatedly explained to you that it proves the Calvery group cannot be from Dishong east...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 02:27:49 AM
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BS:

Whether it?s Dishong or not, that tells you exactly nothing about where Westbrook or Calvery are.

Maybe not, but it does tell us that the four consecutive white women to the right of shorty "Dishong" in Altgens-6 (and to the left of her mostly-hidden person in Zapruder) can't comprise the four-woman "Calvary Group" (the members of which said in their cross-referencing FBI statements that they "went" down the north side of Elm Street together and watched the motorcade together) for the simple reason that those four women to the right of "Dishog" in Altgens-6 and to the left of her in Zapruder are already "spoken for" -- journalists Alonzo, (blond-haired) Woodward, Donaldson, and Brown.

"Your" preferred "Calvary Group" in Zapruder has already been shown to actually consist of self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (just ask Linda Giovanna Zambanini), strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt, and light-blue-headscarf wearing Sharron Simmons, all three of whom were "caught" not only in Zapruder, but in Betzner-3, the 2-second Darnell clip, Bronson, and the Tina Towner film, as well.

Given the above, where do you NOW believe Gloria Calvery can be seen in Zapruder, or any of the other "motorcade" photos and films, Iacoletti?

Hmm?
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 07, 2019, 03:51:23 AM
Kamp is so dumb/dishonest that he admitted Jacob was the woman with the brown jacket and white skirt in the Simmons group but then didn't admit the others were Simmons and Holt...Not very bright...

Thomas:   Iacoletti doesn't seek or produce any evidence himself...He just naysay trolls what others correctly present...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 04:35:50 AM
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Kamp is so dumb/dishonest that he admitted Jacob was the woman with the brown jacket and white skirt in the Simmons group but then didn't admit the others were Simmons and Holt...Not very bright...

Yes, apparently he and Iacoletti believe that Stella had "gone rogue" and left her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharron Simmons, behind over there on the south side (LOL), to join half of Iacoletti's Calvery ensemble on the north side.

Question for John:  If that's Stella standing with your Calvery and Westbrook, then where are Holt and Simmons on the south side, and where are Hicks and Reed, like ... anywhere?

Over there on the almost vacant north side, too?

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 04:47:17 AM
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That's stupid...I have repeatedly explained to you that it proves the Calvery group cannot be from Dishong east...

No it doesn?t. All you did was claim that everybody can be ?seen clearly?. But even if that was proven, so what? Who claimed that Calvery was east of Dishong?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 04:48:57 AM
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Do you believe blond-haired former journalist Mary Woodward correctly identified herself, as well as journalists Aurellia Alonzo, Ann Donaldson Atterberry, and Margaret "Maggie" Brown Kennedy, in her Sixth Floor Museum interview?

No idea. But it?s hypocritical to just accept her word and not Westbrook?s.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 05:01:14 AM
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No idea. But it?s hypocritical to just accept her word and not Westbrook?s.

You have no idea whether former journalist Wooward was remembering correctly?

Do you think she was able to spot her blond-haired, light-grey-dress-wearing self in the Z-film, I mean seein' as how she, unlike your or my Westbrook, wasn't wearing a headscarf?

Oh yeah, and seein' how her smiling face is clearly visible in Altgens-6, whereas neither your nor my Westbrook's is?

Edited and bumped because HE'S lurking ...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 05:09:34 AM
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"Your" preferred "Calvary Group" in Zapruder has already been shown to actually consist of self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (just ask Linda Giovanna Zambanini), strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt, and light-blue-headscarf wearing Sharron Simmons, all three of whom were "caught" not only in Zapruder, but in Betzner-3, the 2-second Darnell clip, Bronson, and the Tina Towner film, as well.

No, they have not been ?shown? to have been, just claimed. If Woodward gets to speak for her friends, then do does Westbrook.

And why are you still insisting that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed had to be standing 4 in a row?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 05:13:34 AM
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Question for John:  If that's Stella standing with your Calvery and Westbrook, then where are Holt and Simmons on the south side, and where are Hicks and Reed, like ... anywhere?

Who knows? There are a lot of people standing along Elm. What if that?s NOT Stella? Is there any point to your ?what if? questions?

Quote
Over there on the almost vacant north side, too?

Huh? Are you confused about which side is North too?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 05:16:21 AM
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No, they have not been ?shown? to have been, just claimed. If Woodward gets to speak for her friends, then do does Westbrook.

And why are you still insisting that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed had to be standing 4 in a row?

Why?

Well, gosh, because I take work colleagues Calvery, Hicks, Reed and Westbrook at their word when they say in their FBI statements that they "went" down Elm Street together, and that they "were with" each other while watching the (noisy) motorcade, you know, little things like that.

You still believe in shouting your comments and questions to your far-away friends at social events, or do you "man up" and stand shoulder-to-shoulder so you can converse more normally, Iacoletti?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 05:28:36 AM
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Huh? Are you confused about which side is North too?

That's why I edited and bumped it before you replied.

D'oh

EDIT: Or at least it has been now.  LOL

But come to think of it, since you admitted a few months ago that the dark-complected woman Unger and Roberdeau originally labeled as "Calvary" (sic) might indeed have been self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, instead, it buggers the mind to speculate as to were you speculate Hicks and Reed were ... like ... anywhere, dude! ... south side or north side!

I mean, I mean, I mean, it's been pretty well established that the two women standing to the left of Stella Mae Jacob (aka Gloria Calvary/"uhh ... probably Carol Reed") in Zapruder are, from right to left, Dishong and Dishong's (unnamed-by-Dishong) work colleague, don't you think?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 05:39:07 AM
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You have no idea whether former journalist Wooward was remembering correctly?

Do you think she was able to spot her blond-haired, light-grey-dress-wearing self in the Z-film, I mean seein' as how she, unlike your or my Westbrook, wasn't wearing a headscarf?

Oh yeah, and seein' how her smiling face is clearly visible in Altgens-6, whereas neither your nor my Westbrook's is?

Edited and bumped because HE'S lurking ...

Did Fagin show her Altgens too?

Westbrook said ?I wish I still had that scarf? though. You think she didn?t know what color her own scarf was?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 05:40:29 AM
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Why?

Well, gosh, because I take work colleagues Calvery, Hicks, Reed and Westbrook at their word when they say in their FBI statements that they "went" down Elm Street together, and that they "were with" each other while watching the (noisy) motorcade, you know, little things like that.

Little things like not ever saying they were standing 4 in a row?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 05:43:51 AM
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But come to think of it, since you admitted a few months ago that the dark-complected woman Unger and Roberdeau originally labeled as "Calvary" (sic) might indeed have been self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, instead

When did I ?admit? that?

Quote
, it buggers the mind to speculate as to were you speculate where Hicks and Reed were, anywhere, south side or north side!

Is there any point to this? Your wild guesses just win by default unless I make my own wild guesses?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 07:24:26 AM
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Little things like not ever saying they were standing 4 in a row?

Iacoletti,

When four friends or colleagues go to an event together and, while standing "shoulder-to-shoulder," watch it, would you expect them to tell their friends (or the FBI for that matter) that they were "standing shoulder-to-shoulder," or even "standing next to each other"?

Wouldn't "I watched it with them" or "We watched it together" suffice, and even be a more normal way of expressing what they did as individuals than, "I was standing next to X,  and she was standing next to Y, and she was standing next to Z, while I watched it," or "We were standing next to each other as we watched it", or ... gasp ... "We were standing four in a row" as we watched it"?

LOL

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 07, 2019, 07:35:55 AM
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No, they have not been ?shown? to have been, just claimed. If Woodward gets to speak for her friends, then do does Westbrook.

And why are you still insisting that Calvery, Hicks, Westbrook, and Reed had to be standing 4 in a row?


You're dishonestly/incompetently not answering the evidence Iacoletti...All that matters here is Ann Donaldson and Maggie Brown are not Calvery, Hicks, Reed, or Westbrook...There are enlargements and other photos where you can see Alonzo, Woodward, Donaldson, and Brown are not any of the Calvery group...You're getting away with murder because Donaldson and Brown have enough features that people who knew them could tell who they were...That's all that matters here and despite your trolling denials it does prove we can exclude all the women from Dishong east from being any of the Calvery group...We can also exclude any of the people from Templin west up to Simmons at the Stemmons sign from being any of the Calvery group...By exclusion that proves the women from Tall Woman to Westbrook are the Calvery group...

You also have no right to ignore that big-bodied Calvery, to petite Hicks and Reed, to Westbrook, all perfectly match their body types and heights as seen in the Christmas photos, despite your trolling denials...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 07, 2019, 08:18:30 AM
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Did Fagin show her Altgens too?

Westbrook said ?I wish I still had that scarf? though. You think she didn?t know what color her own scarf was?

Iacoletti,

The headscarf real-deal Westbrook was wearing down there near those four women journalists could must have been a very pale shade of blue, which she obviously confused with Simmons' darker blue headscarf 54 years after-the-fact.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 09:26:30 PM
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All that matters here is Ann Donaldson and Maggie Brown are not Calvery, Hicks, Reed, or Westbrook...

So what? How does that tell you that ?tall woman? is Calvery or that ?black blob? on the steps is Calvery?

Quote
There are enlargements and other photos where you can see Alonzo, Woodward, Donaldson, and Brown are not any of the Calvery group...

 BS: post them.

Quote
You're getting away with murder because Donaldson and Brown have enough features that people who knew them could tell who they were...

Show these alleged ?features?.

Quote
That's all that matters here and despite your trolling denials it does prove we can exclude all the women from Dishong east from being any of the Calvery group...

Even if you could, so what?

Quote
We can also exclude any of the people from Templin west up to Simmons at the Stemmons sign from being any of the Calvery group...

Really? How? You haven?t even proven that?s Simmons instead of Westbrook.

Quote
You also have no right to ignore that big-bodied Calvery, to petite Hicks and Reed, to Westbrook, all perfectly match their body types and heights as seen in the Christmas photos, despite your trolling denials...

 BS:

You?ve done nothing to demonstrate this ?perfect match? other than just claiming it.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 09:27:54 PM
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The headscarf real-deal Westbrook was wearing down there near those four women journalists could must have been a very pale shade of blue, which she obviously confused with Simmons' darker blue headscarf 54 years after-the-fact.

Nothing but a circular argument.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 07, 2019, 09:29:50 PM
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When four friends or colleagues go to an event together and, while standing "shoulder-to-shoulder," watch it, would you expect them to tell their friends (or the FBI for that matter) that they were "standing shoulder-to-shoulder," or even "standing next to each other"?

You don?t just get to assume that they were.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 08, 2019, 04:32:19 AM
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You don?t just get to assume that they [Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook] were [together during the motorcade].

Despite their FBI statements' saying that they were?

LOL

Question:  Do you have any evidence that those four gals weren't standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" during the motorcade?  For example, have you spotted Reed or Hicks in the crowd on the north side of Elm Street? 

How about Jacob, Holt and Simmons, like ... anywhere?

Hmm?

-- MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 05:11:21 AM
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Despite their FBI statements' saying that they were?

Show me these ?FBI statements? that say they were standing 4 in a row.

Quote
Question:  Do you have any evidence that those four gals weren't standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" during the motorcade?

Really? You?re doubling down on a fallacious argument by shifting the burden?

Like I?m always telling your illogical LN buddies, your guess doesn?t just win by default.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 08, 2019, 05:27:12 AM
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Show me these ?FBI statements? that say they were standing 4 in a row.

Really? You?re doubling down on a fallacious argument by shifting the burden?

Like I?m always telling your illogical LN buddies, your guess doesn?t just win by default.

Iacoletti,

In their FBI statements they said they were "with" each other while watching the motorcade.

A "reasonable man" would take that to mean that they were "standing next to each other" during the motorcade.

Shall we have a poll on that?

Is it so unusual for four work colleagues to stand next to each other while observing a publicized outdoor event in the midst of a lot of strangers or people who might work in the same building, but in a different office?

What's really interesting is that we can see in Zapruder that they really did stand next to each other, or if you prefer, "four in a line"/"shoulder-to-shoulder".

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Ever spot your Karan Hicks or Carol Reed in the crowd?

How about Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharron Simmons?

Are you still looking for them near the curb on the south side of Elm Street?

LOL

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 05:02:47 PM
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In their FBI statements they said they were "with" each other while watching the motorcade.

A "reasonable man" would take that to mean that they were "standing next to each other" during the motorcade.

Everybody thinks his own guesses are reasonable. You either have evidence that they stood four in a row or you do not.

Quote
What's really interesting is that we can see in Zapruder that they really did stand next to each other, or if you prefer, "four in a line"/"shoulder-to-shoulder".

Circular. That?s the thing you?re trying to prove.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 08, 2019, 05:49:58 PM
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Everybody thinks his own guesses are reasonable. You either have evidence that they stood four in a row or you do not.

Circular. That?s the thing you?re trying to prove.

Iacoletti,

See, the thing is Westbrook's truncated "Calvery Group" isn't comprised of "uhh ... probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvert (sic) and me, Karen Westbrook," but dark-complected Stella Mae Jacob, strawberry-blond Gloria Holt, and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons.

So, where in the photos and films can you find Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook (be it standing "shoulder-to-shoulder," in two groups of two, one-and-three, or ... gasp ... as individuals rubbing elbows with "strangers" -- "with" each other only in a "spooky action at a distance" kind of way )?

Oh yeah, and on the north side of Elm Street and standing, as each one of them said in their FBI statements, "about halfway between Houston and The Triple Underpass?

Hmm?

Okay. How about just Karan Hicks and Carol Reed?

Hmm, okay the, how about just Karan Hicks?  Can you spot her in the crowd? (Near the "midpoint")

-- MWT  ;)
 
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 06:21:39 PM
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So, where in the photos and films can you find Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook (be it standing "shoulder-to-shoulder," in two groups of two, one-and-three, or ... gasp ... as individuals rubbing elbows with "strangers" -- "with" each other only in a "spooky action at a distance" kind of way )?\


He's not going to do that Thomas because once forced to actually live up to his own demands it will become clear that he's the one offering the least and least able to live up to his evidence demands and therefore our evidence stands unrefuted...

The pressure should be on him not us...

Reed is proven to be Woman In All White due to the slightly thicker waist than Hicks and fact she escorted Calvery back to the steps...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 06:58:11 PM
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See, the thing is Westbrook's truncated "Calvery Group" isn't comprised of "uhh ... probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvert (sic) and me, Karen Westbrook," but dark-complected Stella Mae Jacob, strawberry-blond Gloria Holt, and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharron Simmons.

I know that?s what you think. That doesn?t make it true.

Quote
So, where in the photos and films can you find Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook (be it standing "shoulder-to-shoulder," in two groups of two, one-and-three, or ... gasp ... as individuals rubbing elbows with "strangers" -- "with" each other only in a "spooky action at a distance" kind of way )?

I don?t know. That doesn?t make your speculation-based hunch true. Unlike you, I don?t look at blurry images and pretend to see details that are just not there.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 07:00:54 PM
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Reed is proven to be Woman In All White due to the slightly thicker waist than Hicks and fact she escorted Calvery back to the steps...

Too bad Reed didn?t agree that she ?escorted Calvery back to the steps?. That must have hurt.

This is like saying ?if the assumptions I?ve made about all of these people are true, then they are who I claim they are?.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 07:05:32 PM
Mary Woodward Pillsworth died at her daughter's home in California 2 years ago at age 77...

Reed is proven to be Woman In All White because you can see Hicks' thin waist on Orange Scarf Woman...Woman In All White is next to Tall Woman in the spectators and is next to her on the steps...Since she's the only woman in all white in the assassination imagery that proves by normal evidence standards it is the same person and is Reed... 

If you're not aware of the FBI statements you're really not qualified to debate...The Calvery group all described standing with each other and we proved they were by exclusion because no one to their left or right could be them...

Thomas never answered what he thinks about this evidence being ignored elsewhere...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 07:30:37 PM
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Reed is proven to be Woman In All White because you can see Hicks' thin waist on Orange Scarf Woman...

LOL. You don?t know that?s Hicks either.

Quote
If you're not aware of the FBI statements you're really not qualified to debate...

I know exactly what the FBI statements say. They say they were ?with? each other. That?s all. They don?t say that they were standing 4 in a row. And as you yourself noted, the statements are nearly word for word identical which raises the question of whether they were even made independently by their supposed authors.

Besides, you?re the guy who says the FBI falsified Stanton?s and Arnold?s statements. Why are you relying on them for this?
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 09:24:30 PM
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Besides, you?re the guy who says the FBI falsified Stanton?s and Arnold?s statements. Why are you relying on them for this?


Because they had serious reason to cover-up Stanton and Arnold's statements that witnessed Oswald in the lunch room...They had no reason to forge the statements of the Calvery group whose location can be seen in the film evidence...

They are shoulder to shoulder as the motion Zapruder clip shows when they turn to each other...As well as their heights that you are uncredibly denying...They have to be shoulder to shoulder because we have excluded all the other people in the spectators from being them...

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 09:44:23 PM
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Because they had serious reason to cover-up Stanton and Arnold's statements that witnessed Oswald in the lunch room...They had no reason to forge the statements of the Calvery group whose location can be seen in the film evidence...

"Because whatever Doyle thinks is accurate is accurate, and whatever Doyle thinks is not accurate, is not accurate."

Quote
They are shoulder to shoulder as the motion Zapruder clip shows when they turn to each other...

Sorry, one brief head turn is not a positive ID of 4 people.  Try again.

Quote
As well as their heights that you are uncredibly denying...

You have no friggin' clue what their heights are.

Quote
They have to be shoulder to shoulder because we have excluded all the other people in the spectators from being them...

No, you actually haven't.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2019, 10:00:37 PM
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"Because whatever Doyle thinks is accurate is accurate, and whatever Doyle thinks is not accurate, is not accurate."

Sorry, one brief head turn is not a positive ID of 4 people.  Try again.

You have no friggin' clue what their heights are.

No, you actually haven't.


You keep repeating the same silly denials...We know their heights from the Christmas photos...How many times do I have to repeat that?

We have proven all the persons from Dishong east are not the Calvery group...And we have proven all the persons from Templin west are not the Calvery group...That makes the foursome in the Tall Woman group Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook and you have failed to answer it or show where they are elsewhere...

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 08, 2019, 10:01:06 PM
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LOL. You don?t know that?s Hicks either.

I know exactly what the FBI statements say. They say they were ?with? each other. That?s all. They don?t say that they were standing 4 in a row. And as you yourself noted, the statements are nearly word for word identical which raises the question of whether they were even made independently by their supposed authors.

Besides, you?re the guy who says the FBI falsified Stanton?s and Arnold?s statements. Why are you relying on them for this?

Iacoletti,

If Tom, Dick and Harry walk together to an event where it's "standing only" (like a presidential motorcade), which is Dick more likely to say later: "I was with Tom and Harry when the President went by" or "I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Tom and Harry when the President went by"?

D'oh

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 11:19:36 PM
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You keep repeating the same silly denials...

That?s because you keep repeating the same silly claims.

Quote
We know their heights from the Christmas photos...How many times do I have to repeat that?

There are no height scales in the Christmas photos...How many times do I have to repeat that?

Quote
We have proven all the persons from Dishong east are not the Calvery group..

You haven?t proven anything. All you?ve done is claim that they are not any of the 4 women that you keep calling ?Calvery group?.

Quote
And we have proven all the persons from Templin west are not the Calvery group...

You haven?t proven anything. All you?ve done is claim that they are not any of the 4 women that you keep calling ?Calvery group?.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 08, 2019, 11:22:18 PM
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If Tom, Dick and Harry walk together to an event where it's "standing only" (like a presidential motorcade), which is Dick more likely to say later: "I was with Tom and Harry when the President went by" or "I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Tom and Harry when the President went by"?

It doesn?t matter.

If Tom, Dick, and Harry walked to a gathering together and stood in the same general vicinity as each other with other people interspersed, they might still say ?we were with each other?.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 09, 2019, 07:09:37 AM
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There are no height scales in the Christmas photos...How many times do I have to repeat that?


Rubbish...The height differences seen in the Christmas photos are exactly repeated in the Zapruder frame...Even to the point that Reed is a tick higher than Hicks because of her heels...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 09, 2019, 08:12:50 AM
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It doesn?t matter.

If Tom, Dick, and Harry walked to a gathering together and stood in the same general vicinity as each other with other people interspersed, they might still say ?we were with each other?.

Iacoletti,

1) If that's the case, and if Westbrook is correct in her identification of herself and Calvery in the Zapruder film, then shouldn't we be able to spot Karan Hicks and Carol Reed "near the midway point"on the north side of Elm Street, you know, either paired-up with each other or "interspersed" individually with other members of the crowd?

2) If work colleagues Tom, Dick, and Harry had walked together to Elm Street to watch the motorcade, but had stood the way you suggest, i.e., "individually interspersed with other members of the crowd," when they were making statements to the FBI after seeing the President get shot, do you really think Tom, for example, would say, "I was with Dick and Harry when the President was shot"?

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 04:41:12 PM
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Rubbish...The height differences seen in the Christmas photos are exactly repeated in the Zapruder frame...

Unadulterated  BS:

Please describe the method by which you determined how these are "exactly repeated".  Let's see your measurements.

Quote
Even to the point that Reed is a tick higher than Hicks because of her heels...

Also  BS:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/reed-hicks.png)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 04:44:40 PM
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1) If that's the case, and if Westbrook is correct in her identification of herself and Calvery in the Zapruder film, then shouldn't we be able to spot Karan Hicks and Carol Reed "near the midway point"on the north side of Elm Street, you know, either paired-up with each other, or "interspersed" individually with other members of the crowd?

I don't know why you think it's so trivial to "spot" people from the backs of their heads in Zapruder, or from blurry images where people are blocked by various members of the motorcade or by each other.

Quote
2) If Tom, Dick, and Harry had stood the way you suggest, i.e., "interspersed with other members of the crowd," and they were making individual statements to the FBI after seeing the President get shot, do you really think they would say, "We were with each other when the President was shot"?

Yes.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 09, 2019, 09:51:08 PM

Anyone can see by eye that Hicks and Reed are the same height in the Zapruder frame...In fact if you have good skill you can see Reed's heels make her slightly higher than Hicks...This image shows Hicks and Reed to be fairly even in height so that slight difference because of the heels only proves it more...

Westbrook and Calvery are exactly as you see in the Christmas photos...Calvery is bigger bodied and you see that exactly in Zapruder and Calvery is slightly taller - which can also be seen by eye in Zapruder...

We have Reed going back to the steps with Calvery in Darnell and we have Hicks following up as Running Woman...

I'd love to see you try to get away with what you do here in a court Iacoletti...You'd be quickly shut-up by the judge and thrown out of the court like you deserve...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 09, 2019, 10:51:51 PM
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Anyone can see by eye that Hicks and Reed are the same height in the Zapruder frame...

What happened to "a tick higher"?

So is it really your argument that if you can find two women who appear to be nearly the same height, that you have somehow proven that they are Hicks and Reed?

Quote
In fact if you have good skill you can see Reed's heels make her slightly higher than Hicks...This image shows Hicks and Reed to be fairly even in height so that slight difference because of the heels only proves it more...

Is Hicks wearing heels at Christmas?  What gives you the idea that Hicks wasn't wearing heels on 11/22?

(and don't say because "orange scarf" isn't wearing heels -- that would be begging the question).

Quote
We have Reed going back to the steps with Calvery in Darnell and we have Hicks following up as Running Woman...

Where, in your dreams?

Quote
I'd love to see you try to get away with what you do here in a court Iacoletti...You'd be quickly shut-up by the judge and thrown out of the court like you deserve...

You have a rich fantasy life.  Sadly for you, it means nothing.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 12:18:19 AM

You're not answering what was written...You're just entering obnoxious naysaying points....You shouldn't be allowed to do that...

Carol Reed told me she sees that Orange Scarf Woman is not wearing heels in Zapruder...You can see Running Woman is fairly thin in Darnell and you can see Hicks is fairly thin in the Christmas photos...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 12:26:26 AM
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You're not answering what was written...You're just entering obnoxious naysaying points....You shouldn't be allowed to do that...

You're just making fallacious claims and lying about the evidence.  You shouldn't be allowed to do that.

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Carol Reed told me she sees that Orange Scarf Woman is not wearing heels in Zapruder...

So what?  Carol Reed didn't say that orange scarf woman is Hicks or that she was woman in white.  Or that she went to the steps with Calvery or anyone else.

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You can see Running Woman is fairly thin in Darnell and you can see Hicks is fairly thin in the Christmas photos...

LOL

Running woman looks fairly thin, therefore she is Hicks.  This is what you call "proof"?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 10, 2019, 01:16:50 AM
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Iacoletti,

1) If that's the case, and if Westbrook is correct in her identification of herself and Calvery in the Zapruder film, then shouldn't we be able to spot Karan Hicks and Carol Reed "near the midway point"on the north side of Elm Street, you know, either paired-up with each other or "interspersed" individually with other members of the crowd?

2) If work colleagues Tom, Dick, and Harry had walked together to Elm Street to watch the motorcade, but had stood the way you suggest, i.e., "individually interspersed with other members of the crowd," when they were making statements to the FBI later, do you really think Tom, for example, would say, "I was with Dick and Harry when the President was shot"?

How about if they were standing twenty feet from each other?

LOL

-- MWT  ;)

Edited and bumped

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 10, 2019, 03:49:22 PM
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So what?  Carol Reed didn't say that orange scarf woman is Hicks or that she was woman in white.  Or that she went to the steps with Calvery or anyone else.

So the heights match from the Christmas photo - which is the point you're avoiding here with your naysaying...If you look closely Reed is slightly taller than Hicks in Zapruder and that is right in line with Reed having heels and Hicks not...In the Christmas photo where they are both wearing heels they are of even height...

You can also see Hick's thinner waist from the Christmas photo on orange scarf woman...

Your doing crude denial of this would earn you moderation on other sites...

It shows the childish nature of the great so-called conspiracy researchers out there in the community that they ignore the break-through information being presented here and listen to a bully moderator instead of standing up for their own rights and integrity and protecting an unfairly banned fellow researcher...Shows a lack of spine and character...

 Iacoletti is presenting a false argument or strawman here which only illustrates his deceptive intent...He speaks as if Reed had to precisely confirm everything in notarized and photographed detail in order for it to be true...That isn't true and we have still presented a vastly superior case compared to his naysaying - which, if examined, contains nothing but obnoxious denials and is the most lacking input here...Iacoletti doesn't post like this elsewhere because he knows he'd be quickly, rightfully booted for his obnoxious content...Moricet reacted to it but banned the wrong guy...He's taking advantage of Duncan's site to its detriment...The community still hasn't answered the basic issue here...It banned the guy who fought for the facts and presented the correct evidence and protected those who are ignoring that evidence and still attacking it...

 
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2019, 05:40:04 PM
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So the heights match from the Christmas photo - which is the point you're avoiding here with your naysaying...

You haven't demonstrated that their heights "match".  You don't even have any scale with which to do so.

Quote
If you look closely Reed is slightly taller than Hicks in Zapruder and that is right in line with Reed having heels and Hicks not...In the Christmas photo where they are both wearing heels they are of even height...

Too bad you have ZERO evidence as to what Hicks or Reed were wearing on 11/22.

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You can also see Hick's thinner waist from the Christmas photo on orange scarf woman...

Thinner than what?  You don't know the identities of any of these people in Zapruder, so comparing them with each other is meaningless.

Quote
Your doing crude denial of this would earn you moderation on other sites...

Your repetitive falsehoods and belligerent demeanor would earn you moderation on other sites.  In fact it has earned banning from every other site.

Quote
It shows the childish nature of the great so-called conspiracy researchers out there in the community that they ignore the break-through information being presented here

You've presented no break-through information.  You've just made up a lot of crap.  349 at last count.

Quote
Iacoletti is presenting a false argument or strawman here which only illustrates his deceptive intent...He speaks as if Reed had to precisely confirm everything in notarized and photographed detail in order for it to be true...

For it to be true, you have to actually demonstrate that it's true -- not just claim over and over that it's true.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 06:07:55 AM
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You haven't demonstrated that their heights "match".  You don't even have any scale with which to do so.


Yes I have...I have demonstrated that by eye you can see the heights of Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks, and Reed as shown in the Christmas photos match what you would see if those same persons were lined up in the Calvery, Hicks, Reed, Westbrook order in Zapruder...

I have also excluded the people on either side of them from being them... 
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 06:35:05 AM
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Yes I have...I have demonstrated that by eye you can see the heights of Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks, and Reed as shown in the Christmas photos match what you would see if those same persons were lined up in the Calvery, Hicks, Reed, Westbrook order in Zapruder...

No I can?t. You haven?t demonstrated anything, you merely claimed it.

Quote
I have also excluded the people on either side of them from being them...

You haven?t demonstrated any basis for excluding them, you merely claimed that you have.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 04:57:56 PM
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No I can?t. You haven?t demonstrated anything, you merely claimed it.

You haven?t demonstrated any basis for excluding them, you merely claimed that you have.

You're pretending you can't...I think you are the only person who denies this...

You are also asking for precise scientific measure for a short-length sweater that anyone can see with the naked eye...Not to mention the matching plaid skirt beneath it...

I have demonstrated that basis and you failed to credibly disprove it...All you are offering is naysaying denial to everything that is posted...I don't know why you are allowed to do that because it damages the site...We have shown that that people on either side of the Calvery group are persons other than Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...You're just offering naysay denying to it and are being allowed to get away with it...

It is fact that the heights of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook in the Christmas photo matches the heights of the Calvery group in Zapruder...This is visible to the naked eye and you are resorting to naysaying word games to get around it...

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 05:04:05 PM
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You're pretending you can't...I think you are the only person who denies this...

Actually you're the only person who claims this.

Quote
You are also asking for precise scientific measure for a short-length sweater that anyone can see with the naked eye...

A supposedly "perfect match" requires a precise measurement, yes.  If you just think they look the same, then drop the perfect match nonsense.

Quote
Not to mention the matching plaid skirt beneath it...

What "matching plaid skirt"?

Quote
I have demonstrated that basis and you failed to credibly disprove it...

Actually you failed to credibly demonstrate it.

Quote
We have shown that that people on either side of the Calvery group are persons other than Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...

You haven't shown squat.  You can't even post photos of what you're talking about.  All you've done is make claims.

Quote
It is fact that the heights of Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook in the Christmas photo matches the heights of the Calvery group in Zapruder...This is visible to the naked eye and you are resorting to naysaying word games to get around it...

No, it's not a fact.  You have no scale by which to compare Zapruder spectator heights with Christmas photo heights.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 06:29:08 PM
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A supposedly "perfect match" requires a precise measurement, yes.  If you just think they look the same, then drop the perfect match nonsense.


No, it's not a fact.  You have no scale by which to compare Zapruder spectator heights with Christmas photo heights.


It is false to say you need a scale in order to determine things you can see with the naked eye...You are trying to aggressively take charge of the terms here...But common sense tells you don't need to further prove things that have already been proven...You don't need a calibrated scale if you can determine the heights by the naked eye and you can...The heights of those women do match and their identity is further reinforced by the fact all people on either side of them are provably not them...You're just in denial of the obvious and being permitted to make disingenuous entries...

You're playing word games Iacoletti which means you aren't posting seriously...The short-length sweater on Calvery matches the woman on the steps and the plaid skirt further evidences it...That means it is Calvery and we can proceed with a positive identification of her...

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
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It is false to say you need a scale in order to determine things you can see with the naked eye...

Nonsense.  You can't determine somebody's height in a photo without some known quantity to calibrate it to.  Why do you think they put these little height charts behind people in photos?

(http://www.reformation.org/oswald-fake-height-chart.jpg)

If you think you can determine heights with your "naked eye" then please tell us how many feet and inches tall tall this person is and if she is taller or shorter than orange scarf woman in Zapruder.

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/kurhan/kurhan1311/kurhan131100014/24025503-young-beautiful-woman-standing-full-over-white-background-.jpg)

Quote
You're playing word games Iacoletti which means you aren't posting seriously...The short-length sweater on Calvery matches the woman on the steps

Don't just assert that the sweaters "match" -- demonstrate it.  What criteria are you using to identify it as the same object?

Quote
and the plaid skirt further evidences it...

What plaid skirt?

Quote
That means it is Calvery and we can proceed with a positive identification of her...

All it means is that you have an active imagination.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 11, 2019, 07:32:06 PM

You're switching the subject to a classic strawman...The original images adequately show the heights match by eye...You showed irrelevant other photos...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2019, 08:20:29 PM
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You're switching the subject to a classic strawman...The original images adequately show the heights match by eye...You showed irrelevant other photos...

You're hopeless.  The other photos show the same scenario.  You're claiming to match heights in two different images with no reference by which to compare the two.  If you can't tell me if my standing woman is taller or shorter than orange scarf woman, then the same goes for Karan Hicks in the Christmas photos.  Why do you persist in this nonsense?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 12, 2019, 03:29:15 AM
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You're hopeless.  The other photos show the same scenario.  You're claiming to match heights in two different images with no reference by which to compare the two.  If you can't tell me if my standing woman is taller or shorter than orange scarf woman, then the same goes for Karan Hicks in the Christmas photos.  Why do you persist in this nonsense?

Iacoletti,

Your calling Doyle "hopeless" is like the pot calling the kettle "black".

LOL

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2019, 05:56:52 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
Your calling Doyle "hopeless" is like the pot calling the kettle "black".

Actually it?s like calling the kettle perfectly matched plaid.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 12, 2019, 04:41:36 PM
Experts will confirm the short-length sweater and plaid skirt are the same and therefore confirm the woman is Calvery...

You're attacking good evidence Iacoletti and pretending you are offering the superior input...

You can see these things by eye and your denials aren't credible...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 13, 2019, 01:49:12 AM
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Experts will confirm the short-length sweater and plaid shirt are the same and therefore confirm the woman is Calvery...

You're attacking good evidence Iacoletti and pretending you are offering the superior input...

You can see these things by eye and your denials aren't credible...

*skirt, not shirt
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2019, 03:41:50 AM
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Experts will confirm the short-length sweater and plaid shirt are the same and therefore confirm the woman is Calvery...

Experts will not confirm that because it?s  BS:
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 14, 2019, 11:18:55 PM
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Experts will not confirm that because it?s  BS:

Iacoletti,

Unfortunately, Doyle is hung up on his misconception that the person who's your self-described "Glasses Woman's" in Betzner-3 (i.e., Gloria Calvery in Betzner-3, Gloria Calvery in Zapruder, and Gloria Calvery in Couch-Darnell) is wearing a "plaid" skirt, instead of correctly saying that her skirt has dark and wide horizontal bars (or "bands") in it.

Oh yeah, and that the "sweater" she's wearing is abnormally short for her body.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 14, 2019, 11:29:14 PM
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Nonsense.  You can't determine somebody's height in a photo without some known quantity to calibrate it to.  Why do you think they put these little height charts behind people in photos?

(http://www.reformation.org/oswald-fake-height-chart.jpg)

If you think you can determine heights with your "naked eye" then please tell us how many feet and inches tall tall this person is and if she is taller or shorter than orange scarf woman in Zapruder.

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/kurhan/kurhan1311/kurhan131100014/24025503-young-beautiful-woman-standing-full-over-white-background-.jpg)

Don't just assert that the sweaters "match" -- demonstrate it.  What criteria are you using to identify it as the same object?

What plaid skirt?

All it means is that you have an active imagination.

Iacoletti,

It's oh-so "just like you" to post that photo of that gal showing her with nothing in the foreground, mid-ground, and/or background for size comparison purposes.

Like I said, you (foolishly) do and say scandalously disingenuous things with your oh-so-clever mind.

LOL

-- MWT   ;)


Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 15, 2019, 01:05:19 AM
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Iacoletti,

Unfortunately, Doyle is hung up on his misconception that the person who's your self-described "Glasses Woman's" in Betzner-3 (i.e., Gloria Calvery in Betzner-3, Gloria Calvery in Zapruder, and Gloria Calvery in Couch-Darnell) is wearing a "plaid" skirt, instead of correctly saying that her skirt has dark and wide horizontal bars (or "bands") in it.

Oh yeah, and that the "sweater" she's wearing is abnormally short for her body.

-- MWT   ;)


It is a plaid skirt and you're wrong...Thomas is just ignorant of the fact plaid comes in red and green and Calvery is a Scottish name and she's wearing her Tartan Calvery Clan colors in front of the president...You can see it in this image: 

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Burney1.jpg)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 15, 2019, 04:55:20 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
It's oh-so "just like you" to post that photo of that gal showing her with nothing in the foreground, mid-ground, and/or background for size comparison purposes.

Doyle refuses to say what he is using for size comparison purposes. Maybe you can help him out.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 15, 2019, 04:57:20 AM
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It is a plaid skirt and you're wrong...Thomas is just ignorant of the fact plaid comes in red and green and Calvery is a Scottish name and she's wearing her Calvery Clan colors in front of the president...

Evidence please that these are ?Calvery clan colors?.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 15, 2019, 01:36:53 PM
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It is a plaid skirt and you're wrong...Thomas is just ignorant of the fact plaid comes in red and green and Calvery is a Scottish name and she's wearing her Tartan Calvery Clan colors in front of the president...You can see it in this image: 

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Burney1.jpg)

Brian,

"Plaid" always has horizontal and vertical elements.

Where are the vertical elements in Calvery's skirt?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 15, 2019, 03:25:17 PM
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Brian,

"Plaid" always has horizontal and vertical elements.

Where are the vertical elements in Calvery's skirt?

-- MWT   ;)


If we could see that skirt close up you would see them...(Good job helping Iacoletti by shifting the subject to such trivial BS Thomas)...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 15, 2019, 05:33:53 PM
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If we could see that skirt close up you would see them...(Good job helping Iacoletti by shifting the subject to such trivial BS Thomas)...

Brian,

Unlike Iacoletti, who professes to strive for establishing and defending the veracity of TRUE (i.e., "CT") FACTS and debunking evil, evil (i.e., "LN") FALLACIES, but falls short in both categories, I try to tackle misconceptions wherever I find them.

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Can you actually see any vertical elements in Calvery's skirt in Zapruder? (I can't.)

Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 04:25:06 AM
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Unlike Iacoletti, who professes to strive for establishing and defending the veracity of TRUE (i.e., "CT") FACTS and debunking evil, evil (i.e., "LN") FALLACIES, but falls short in both categories, I try to tackle misconceptions wherever I find them.

You create more than you ?tackle?.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 16, 2019, 05:36:17 AM
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You create more than you ?tackle?.

Iacoletti,

It only seems that way to you because you're either virtually blind, or have a hard time following written instructions regarding where and how to look, or you have a "Damn The Evidence -- Oswald Innocent At All Costs" agenda.

Still can't see the more-or-less-vertical, washed-out-by-sunlight areas on your "Glasses Woman's" face (her right side) and hair (in the middle) in Betzner-3?

Perfect example.

You are brilliantly stubborn to the point of scintillating obtuseness, Iacoletti.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 07:53:55 PM
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Iacoletti,

You don't need to put my name in every post.

Quote
It only seems that way to you because you're either virtually blind, or have a hard time following written instructions regarding where and how to look, or you have a "Damn The Evidence -- Oswald Innocent At All Costs" agenda.

Just because you think you see some kind of detail, that doesn't mean that it's obvious to everybody.

Get over it.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 01:43:05 AM
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You don't need to put my name in every post.

Just because you think you see some kind of detail, that doesn't mean that it's obvious to everybody.

Iacoletti,

Have I said that the things I'm trying to point out in the photos, frames and films are "obvious"?

If so, my bad.

I should have said, "Tricky to spot in even the best copies and at ideal enlargements, but discernable."

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 04:17:54 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
Have I said that the things I'm trying to point out in the photos, frames and films are "obvious"?

In some cases, yes.

Quote
If so, my bad.

I should have said, "Tricky to spot in even the best copies and at ideal enlargements, but discernable."

To you, maybe.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 07:18:00 AM
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To you, maybe.

To JFK assassination students and "researchers" who can follow written instructions, have reasonably good eyesight, and who do not have an "Oswald-Was-Innocent!" mind-clouding bias.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 01:24:52 PM
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To JFK assassination students and "researchers" who can follow written instructions, have reasonably good eyesight, and who do not have an "Oswald-Was-Innocent!" mind-clouding bias.

When did I ever say Oswald was innocent, and what the hell does that have to do with your alleged ?striped skirt? on black-blob anyway?

Let?s talk about narcissistic ?researchers? who think that whatever they imagine that they ?see? is reality?
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 08:29:05 PM
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When did I ever say Oswald was innocent, and what the hell does that have to do with your alleged ?striped skirt? on black-blob anyway?

Let?s talk about narcissistic ?researchers? who think that whatever they imagine that they ?see? is reality?

Iacoletti,

1) Do you think Oswald killed JFK?

Yes or No?

2)  If not, do you think he wittingly participated in the assassination?

Yes or No?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 09:46:36 PM
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Iacoletti,

You don't need to put my name in every post.

Quote
1) Do you think Oswald killed JFK?

Yes or No?

I don't believe he did and I don't believe he didn't.  The evidence is insufficient to prove either claim beyond a reasonable doubt.  IMO.

Quote
2)  If not, do you think he wittingly participated in the assassination?

See above.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 18, 2019, 02:05:39 AM
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You don't need to put my name in every post.

I don't believe he did and I don't believe he didn't.  The evidence is insufficient to prove either claim beyond a reasonable doubt.  IMO.

See above.

Iacoletti,

Then why do you so often make disparaging remarks about "LNers"?

-- MWT   ;)

Edit:  So, on the issues of whether or not Oswald 1) killed JFK, or 2) was a witting participant in the assassination, you're just a chickenxxxx agnostic, huh?

LOL

Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 05:07:29 AM

He's just here for the naysaying...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 05:23:15 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
Then why do you so often make disparaging remarks about "LNers"?

I criticize and correct the misrepresentation of the evidence. That would include when you do it.

Quote
Edit:  So, on the issues of whether or not Oswald 1) killed JFK, or 2) was a witting participant in the assassination, you're just a chickenxxxx agnostic, huh?

You think it?s a virtue to just believe stuff for no good reason? Wait a minute ? of course you do. All of this Calvery stuff shows that in spades.
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 05:24:26 AM
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He's just here for the naysaying...

Stop lying about the evidence and what people say and I?ll stop pointing it out.
Title: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 05:28:38 AM

You're naysaying correct evidence...

Stanton was not to the left of Frazier...
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 19, 2019, 12:11:05 AM
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You're naysaying correct evidence...

Stanton was not to the left of Frazier...

"Naysaying, naysaying, naysaying, naysaying, naysaying, ...."

Gag me with an effin' spoon, dude.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Was June Dishong "Captured" At The Left Edge Of Full-Frame Altgens-6?
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 02:01:28 AM
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     The "bummer" is your description above is Exactly why Zapruder would have/Did Film the JFK Limo making the turn onto Elm St.   Thumb1:

Huh?

English, please.

-- MWT   :-[