JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on February 12, 2019, 11:29:23 PM

Title: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 12, 2019, 11:29:23 PM
Brennan was an important witness as he claimed to see a variety of events. It is important to establish with some accuracy when he took up position.

From Brennan's WC testimony.....

Brennan take up position on the wall about 12.24pm

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?
Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.
Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?
Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Seems pretty clear......leaves cafeteria at 12.18, walks for 4 minutes, watches Belknap having fit and attended by officers and ambulance for couple of minutes.

12.18+4+2=12.24pm

As confirmation the ambulance left Dealy Plaza just before 12.25pm according to the transcripts.

Therefore all of Brennan's relevant observations occur after this time.

The defence rests.....If you disagree with this analysis.....go for it.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 13, 2019, 12:14:28 AM
Interesting.  So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch.  Is that what you're getting at?
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 12:29:52 AM
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Interesting.  So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch.  Is that what you're getting at?

Nope......but it is possible that his recollection of seeing a man come and go from the SN may have been two men. Williams going and the assassin entering. He innocently assumed it was the same man. Williams was wearing a khaki shirt. Perhaps Williams departure originally drew Brannan's eye to the 6th floor window.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 13, 2019, 09:06:51 PM
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Interesting.  So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch.  Is that what you're getting at?

So his descriptions of supposedly seeing Oswald hanging out the window and whatnot, occurred while BRW was up there having his lunch

Would this be the 175 pound "Oswald" who was in his thirties, and who was dressed in Light colored khaki clothing?   ??

Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 12:00:24 AM
Can I take it that there is no serious rebuttal to the question posed in the topic title?

The relevant observations that Brennan provides prior to the assassination start about 12.24pm.

Hopefully we can move on from that understanding.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 10:37:10 AM
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Nope......but it is possible that his recollection of seeing a man come and go from the SN may have been two men. Williams going and the assassin entering. He innocently assumed it was the same man. Williams was wearing a khaki shirt.

Hello, Mr Crow!  Thumb1:

I don't think this last bit is correct. Mr Williams' shirt, as seen in the Martin & Hughes films, seems too dark to match Mr Brennan's description.

Also, I honestly doubt Mr Brennan would have conflated in his memory a black man and a white man.

Also also I struggle to believe that the sharp-eyed Mr Arnold Rowland would have mistaken young Mr Williams for an 'elderly Negro' in a plaid shirt...
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 12:04:18 PM
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Hello, Mr Crow!  Thumb1:

I don't think this last bit is correct. Mr Williams' shirt, as seen in the Martin & Hughes films, seems too dark to match Mr Brennan's description.

Also, I honestly doubt Mr Brennan would have conflated in his memory a black man and a white man.

Also also I struggle to believe that the sharp-eyed Mr Arnold Rowland would have mistaken young Mr Williams for an 'elderly Negro' in a plaid shirt...

Hello Mr Ford. Firstly I gather you have no issue with the original proposal. Brennan?s observations of the TSBD were after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor. After their arrival Williams leaves. He was in the SN, as shown by the statements of those officers first on the scene. His lunch was found there, not 2 or 3 sets of windows westward.

Williams shirt was certainly a greenish colour. Perhaps someone would post the picture. Could it not be described as khaki? Rowland also mentioned a greenish shirt for the black man in the SN......coincidence? As for Brennan mistaking the two as one person, maybe he simply saw the back of Williams leaving and the assassin entering.....assumed it to be one person.....impossible?

Rowland"s description of the man?s age could also simply be mistaken.....when did that white stuff get in Williams' hair? He had white stuff all over his clothes too......maybe it was this presentation that deceived Rowland.....impossible?

Brennan saw only two men on the fifth floor......Jarman and Norman.....that was after 12.24 and also saw movement in the SN. We know Williams was there (at least on the 6th floor) until after 12.24.

Williams must have left and the assassin enter after 12.24.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 12:24:04 PM
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Hello Mr Ford. Firstly I gather you have no issue with the original proposal. Brennan?s observations of the TSBD were after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor. After their arrival Williams leaves. He was in the SN, as shown by the statements of those officers first on the scene. His lunch was found there, not 2 or 3 sets of windows westward.

Williams shirt was certainly a greenish colour. Perhaps someone would post the picture. Could it not be described as khaki? Rowland also mentioned a greenish shirt for the black man in the SN......coincidence? As for Brennan mistaking the two as one person, maybe he simply saw the back of Williams leaving and the assassin entering.....assumed it to be one person.....impossible?

Rowland"s description of the man?s age could also simply be mistaken.....when did that white stuff get in Williams' hair? He had white stuff all over his clothes too......maybe it was this presentation that deceived Rowland.....impossible?

Brennan saw only two men on the fifth floor......Jarman and Norman.....that was after 12.24 and also saw movement in the SN. We know Williams was there (at least on the 6th floor) until after 12.24.

Williams must have left and the assassin enter after 12.24.

I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting!  Thumb1:

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 12:43:30 PM
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I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting!  Thumb1:

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

I think we can agree that Williams was unreliable and saw more than he would tell. I suspect he was up there, with his lunch. Remember that was originally widely announced as the assassin?s lunch. Williams originally tried not to be associated with the 6th floor at all but would have to change his story over time as he quickly realised he would have to account for the police likely finding his prints on the bag and bottle. Also he likely surmised that someone might have seen him up there also, I believe Rowland did. So he then did the next best thing and tried to be on the sixth floor much earlier than the 12.15 timestamp provided by Rowland for the gunmans presence.

Jarman and Norman tried to claim he went up with them to the fifth but they eventually had to recant before the WC. They provided evidence that their trip upstairs occurred after 12.22 and ties in nicely with Brennan observing those two after 12.24.

Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2019, 02:23:08 PM
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I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting!  Thumb1:

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

This clothing description matches exactly with Howard Brennan's affidavit of 1:30 pm 11/22/63 .....  It is an accepted fact that Lee Oswald was wearing a reddish brown shirt and dark gray trousers at the TSBD that morning, and he didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing....
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
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Hello Mr Ford. Firstly I gather you have no issue with the original proposal. Brennan?s observations of the TSBD were after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor. After their arrival Williams leaves. He was in the SN, as shown by the statements of those officers first on the scene. His lunch was found there, not 2 or 3 sets of windows westward.

Williams shirt was certainly a greenish colour. Perhaps someone would post the picture. Could it not be described as khaki? Rowland also mentioned a greenish shirt for the black man in the SN......coincidence? As for Brennan mistaking the two as one person, maybe he simply saw the back of Williams leaving and the assassin entering.....assumed it to be one person.....impossible?

Rowland"s description of the man?s age could also simply be mistaken.....when did that white stuff get in Williams' hair? He had white stuff all over his clothes too......maybe it was this presentation that deceived Rowland.....impossible?

Brennan saw only two men on the fifth floor......Jarman and Norman.....that was after 12.24 and also saw movement in the SN. We know Williams was there (at least on the 6th floor) until after 12.24.

Williams must have left and the assassin enter after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor.

I'm not being antagonistic or arguing...but .... HOW do you know that "Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor."    There are photos that were taken before the shots and the Hughes film ( taken about 4 seconds before the shots ) shows only ONE figure on the fifth floor ( none on the sixth) ....The one figure that is clearly visible is in the last window (east) on the fifth floor. and there might be a person behind the window that Junior Jarman occupied, (fourth window)  but the film isn't very clear.....

Bottom line.... Bonnie Lad is NOT seen in the film that was taken just four seconds prior to the shots.....
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 08:14:48 PM
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I think we can agree that Williams was unreliable and saw more than he would tell. I suspect he was up there, with his lunch. Remember that was originally widely announced as the assassin?s lunch. Williams originally tried not to be associated with the 6th floor at all but would have to change his story over time as he quickly realised he would have to account for the police likely finding his prints on the bag and bottle. Also he likely surmised that someone might have seen him up there also, I believe Rowland did. So he then did the next best thing and tried to be on the sixth floor much earlier than the 12.15 timestamp provided by Rowland for the gunmans presence.

Jarman and Norman tried to claim he went up with them to the fifth but they eventually had to recant before the WC. They provided evidence that their trip upstairs occurred after 12.22 and ties in nicely with Brennan observing those two after 12.24.

My take, for what it's worth, Mr Crow----------------

----------------Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)
----------------Mr Rowland's simultaneous sighting of Man A (black, east window) and Man B (white, with weapon, west window) tells me that Man A and Man B were conspirators---- Man B must have been v. relaxed about Man A's seeing him with a weapon!
----------------Mr Arnold's sighting has to be explained away by DPD, FBI... enter Mr Williams, who will change his story as per evolving instructions, up to and including eating chicken-on-the-bone sandwich (!?)
----------------It's possible, I think, that Mr Williams was held up on 6...

Incidentally! I also think Mr Piper may have wandered up to 6 at the wrong time too. His account of his own doing around motorcade time just don't add up IMO. (& Why was he rather pointedly asked in his Warren testimony if he'd gone higher than 4 that day?) V. mysterious!
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2019, 08:44:35 PM
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My take, for what it's worth, Mr Crow----------------

----------------Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)
----------------Mr Rowland's simultaneous sighting of Man A (black, west window) and Man B (white, with weapon, east window) tells me that Man A and Man B were conspirators---- Man B must have been v. relaxed about Man A's seeing him with a weapon!
----------------Mr Arnold's sighting has to be explained away by DPD, FBI... enter Mr Williams, who will change his story as per evolving instructions, up to and including eating chicken-on-the-bone sandwich (!?)
----------------It's possible, I think, that Mr Williams was held up on 6...

Incidentally! I also think Mr Piper may have wandered up to 6 at the wrong time too. His account of his own doing around motorcade time just don't add up IMO. (& Why was he rather pointedly asked in his Warren testimony if he'd gone higher than 4 that day?) V. mysterious!

As a preface....  The statements that were extracted from the witnesses by the cover up committee are not to be used as the gospel truth.... The shyster lawyers were there to hide the truth, not expose it......

Mr Ford, I believe that Arnold Rowland said that he saw a white man with a high powered rifle like a thirty odd six, with a high power telescopic sight  mounted on it  behind a window at the WEST end of the sixth floor.....

Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning   I agree ....and I believe that it was Charlie Givens who constructed the loafers nook......He built it so he could hide from the boss and goof off and smoke by that open window.....   There were reports of cigarette butts on the floor but that bit of information was swept under the rug, because Lee Oswald didn't smoke.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 08:47:18 PM
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Mr Ford, I believe that Arnold Rowland said that he saw a white man with a high powered rifle like a thirty odd six, with a high power telescopic sight  mounted on it  behind a window at the WEST end of the sixth floor.....

Oops! You're quite right, Mr Cakebread. I have edited my post accordingly. Thank you!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 08:59:32 PM
Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Givens certainly changed his story regarding the cigarette trip much later for a specific reason. However I doubt we can ever determine what happened if we believe everyone lied about their actions that day. What we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them. The employees were not fingerprinted until months later and at that stage the evidence abandoned.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2019, 09:00:04 PM
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Oops! You're quite right, Mr Cakebread. I have edited my post accordingly. Thank you!  Thumb1:

-Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)

I believe that you're right.....  Recall that the cops took a Dr Pepper bottle to the police lab....  If we could know the truth I'd bett that the Dr Pepper bottle had Charlie Givens prints on it....

Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 09:11:00 PM
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Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Givens certainly changed his story regarding the cigarette trip much later for a specific reason. However I doubt we can ever determine what happened if we believe everyone lied about their actions that day. What we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them. The employees were not fingerprinted until months later and at that stage the evidence abandoned.

Mr Crow, I think Mr Shelley blurted out the truth in his testimony, and Mr Givens was simply coached to deny it.

The bottle and lunch sack became a nuisance, because they'd made such a ballyhoo about it initially. But not as big a nuisance as Mr Rowland!
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 09:14:27 PM
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-Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)

I believe that you're right.....  Recall that the cops took a Dr Pepper bottle to the police lab....  If we could know the truth I'd bett that the Dr Pepper bottle had Charlie Givens prints on it....

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2019, 09:19:08 PM
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Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Givens certainly changed his story regarding the cigarette trip much later for a specific reason. However I doubt we can ever determine what happened if we believe everyone lied about their actions that day. What we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them. The employees were not fingerprinted until months later and at that stage the evidence abandoned.

we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them.

Givens was a convicted felon...The DPD certainly had his prints on file..... 
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 09:41:04 PM
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we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them.

Givens was a convicted felon...The DPD certainly had his prints on file.....

So why not get Givens to lie from day one? His lunch in the SN......would have been a lot tidier. Why the need to get Williams involved in that mess by Saturday? They had both in for questioning Friday, yet Williams lunchtime trip starts to evolve the next day.

How many witnesses lied and when? We can speculate forever, just consider how many people are required to lie for your theory. And if they were all prepared to lie why does the story seem such a mess? I have to use William of Occam to make sense of the events.

Just one question. Did BRW go upstairs with Jarman and Norman or not?
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Alan Ford on February 14, 2019, 10:16:06 PM
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Just one question. Did BRW go upstairs with Jarman and Norman or not?

Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.


So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 14, 2019, 11:38:44 PM
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Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.


So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

I believe Williams.....  When he said he thought they all were going to return to the sixth floor after washing up and grabbing their lunch bags....And I believe that he was the only one who went to the sixth floor..... Did he misunderstand or did someone change that plan?

I'm left to guess about WHO changed the plan?....  Did that person know that there was evidence being planted up there on the sixth floor?   But the most important question is.... Did someone make a major mistake by not chasing Williams off that floor immediately at about 12:15 ( or whenever BRW arrived there)  Someone most certainly was assigned to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor after noon....  I suspect that the man was Jack Dougherty, but he screwed up and didn't see Williams go to the sixth floor..... so he didn't know that BRW was there silently munching his lunch at the SE corner .....   
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 15, 2019, 12:21:54 AM
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Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.


So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

Alan, my questions were to anyone not just Walt and general in nature regarding the number if liars required. Do not trust the WC testimonies too much......these were the result of the Ball/Belin trip to Dallas just before the testimonies were taken. If possible use material closer to the original event. Williams admitted the 6th floor adventure by day 2. Even then he tried to make the timing of it much earlier (and shorter). This would eventually fall apart and Jarman and Norman could no longer attempt to cover for him by saying he went up with them.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Colin Crow on February 15, 2019, 12:27:34 AM
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I believe Williams.....  When he said he thought they all were going to return to the sixth floor after washing up and grabbing their lunch bags....And I believe that he was the only one who went to the sixth floor..... Did he misunderstand or did someone change that plan?

I'm left to guess about WHO changed the plan?....  Did that person know that there was evidence being planted up there on the sixth floor?   But the most important question is.... Did someone make a major mistake by not chasing Williams off that floor immediately at about 12:15 ( or whenever BRW arrived there)  Someone most certainly was assigned to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor after noon....  I suspect that the man was Jack Dougherty, but he screwed up and didn't see Williams go to the sixth floor..... so he didn't know that BRW was there silently munching his lunch at the SE corner .....

Thing is, could the gunman in the SW window see or even know BRW was eating his chicken in the SN? Did the gunman become aware of Williams first or vice versa......tend to believe the former. Williams left his lunch behind and unfinished after he was asked to leave just minutes before the motorcade arrived.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 15, 2019, 02:17:23 AM
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Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

This clothing description matches exactly with Howard Brennan's affidavit of 1:30 pm 11/22/63 .....  It is an accepted fact that Lee Oswald was wearing a reddish brown shirt and dark gray trousers at the TSBD that morning, and he didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing....
And Oswald changed that shirt. Fritz's notes reflects this as has been posted over the last year......
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page  Hand written at bottom.
Why would Oswald lie over something as trivial as changing a shirt?
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2019, 02:50:42 AM
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And Oswald changed that shirt. Fritz's notes reflects this as has been posted over the last year......
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page  Hand written at bottom.
Why would Oswald lie over something as trivial as changing a shirt?

Oswald was a liar. Liars lie. He lied about lots of "trivial" things. He did not change his shirt.  The shirt that he was seen wearing on the bus by Mrs. Bledsoe is the same shirt he had on when arrested. The bus transfer was still in the pocket of the shirt.
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2019, 03:46:18 AM
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Thing is, could the gunman in the SW window see or even know BRW was eating his chicken in the SN? Did the gunman become aware of Williams first or vice versa......tend to believe the former. Williams left his lunch behind and unfinished after he was asked to leave just minutes before the motorcade arrived.

Brennan said that he saw the man who was wearing the light colored clothing move around from window to window ....but was he seeing the same man??  BRW had on light colored clothing and at a glance Brennan could have mistaken BRW for the 175 pound khaki clad man.....It would have been difficult for a man to move from the SE corner window to other windows because of the barricade of boxes behind the SE corner window.....

Could the gunman in the SW window have seen BRW?..... I doubt it......If BRW was sitting on a box in the Se corner many high stacks of boxes would have been between him and the SW corner of the room.....

Did the gunman become aware??....  I believe that the man with the high powered rifle became aware of BRW and put the rifle out of sight while he confronted BRW and told him to get off the sixth floor......and keep his mouth shut about their meeting.

Incidentally....I seriously doubt that there were any shots fired from the sixth floor.....Brennan said he saw the man who was wearing the Khaki clothes AIMING a rifle He did NOT see the rifle being fired.


Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2019, 04:27:59 AM
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Oswald was a liar. Liars lie. He lied about lots of "trivial" things. He did not change his shirt.  The shirt that he was seen wearing on the bus by Mrs. Bledsoe is the same shirt he had on when arrested. The bus transfer was still in the pocket of the shirt.

Liars may lie....But photographs don't....  Lee said that he went to his room and changed his clothes.....He said the shirt he took off was a reddish brown color with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR.   The police found a shirt matching that description in the dresser drawer in his room at 1026 N. Beckley.  Photos taken as he was dragged from the Texas theater show that he was  tawny gray shirt. 

Mrs Bledsoe said that the shirt that she saw Lee wearing had a hole in the sleeve at the elbow.....When lee was escorted through the hall at the police station he held up his handcuffed hands which stretched the sleeve tight against his elbow....There was NO HOLE in that shirt.....
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2019, 06:58:24 PM
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Alan, my questions were to anyone not just Walt and general in nature regarding the number if liars required. Do not trust the WC testimonies too much......these were the result of the Ball/Belin trip to Dallas just before the testimonies were taken. If possible use material closer to the original event. Williams admitted the 6th floor adventure by day 2. Even then he tried to make the timing of it much earlier (and shorter). This would eventually fall apart and Jarman and Norman could no longer attempt to cover for him by saying he went up with them.

Colin....It's very obvious that the conspirators had selected the sixth floor as the site that they were going to use to set up the stage to frame Lee Oswald....( the spent shells were planted there and a unusual rifle with a serial number that could be traced to a rifle that Lee Oswald had ordered was found there on the sixth floor....)

Since I believe that is obvious....They most certainly would have taken precaution to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor who could refute their scenario.

IOW....They would have posted a guard to keep any employee from entering the sixth floor during the period between 12:15 and 12:30....  I believe that guard was Jack Dougherty ..... 

Dougherty was so afraid of being exposed that he couldn't think rationally when he testified before the cover up commission..... Dougherty's testimony is rambling incoherent gibberish.....

I believe he was supposed to isolate the sixth floor and keep anybody from going to the sixth floor, by taking the east elevator to the sixth floor and leaving it there ( the east elevator required an operator on board ) He was then supposed to block the stairs at the fifth floor by placing boxes of books in front of the stairway door so nobody could go beyond the fifth floor ( He may have sat down on the boxes that blocked the stairway door )   .......  Dougherty didn't know that Bonnie Ray Williams had gone to the sixth floor prior to 12:15 and was silently sitting and eating lunch at the SE corner of the sixth floor.....  So Dougherty assumed that there was nobody on the sixth floor when he left the elevator there.    Then at about 12:25 he heard Jarman and Norman bring the west elevator up to the fifth floor which was the top floor for the west elevator.....  and he saw them taking position behind the fifth floor windows to watch the parade.    Perhaps he went to the sixth floor when he heard the west elevator rising, and found Bonnie Ray Williams there....  and told him to get off the sixth floor or he would be fired .

The above scenario is a possible scenario to try to arrive at solutions to many unanswered questions...The prime question is:...   Would the conspirators have left the sixth floor unguarded  ??

     

 
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 15, 2019, 08:30:41 PM
 
[/quote]
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Oswald was a liar. Liars lie. He lied about lots of "trivial" things. He did not change his shirt.  The shirt that he was seen wearing on the bus by Mrs. Bledsoe is the same shirt he had on when arrested. The bus transfer was still in the pocket of the shirt.
Blah blah blah that song again...that [long discredited] song will never end.
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Brennan said that he saw the man who was wearing the light colored clothing move around from window to window...
There it is. He did describe that. So if Oswald was wearing the arrest shirt, why does Brennan not describe that?


 
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2019, 08:59:24 PM
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 Blah blah blah that song again...that [long discredited] song will never end.There it is. He did describe that. So if Oswald was wearing the arrest shirt, why does Brennan not describe that?

Well I'd say the man who was wearing the light colored clothing was not Lee Oswald.....  And to substantiate that, Lee said that he was on the first floor at that time....
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 19, 2019, 08:05:06 PM
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There were reports of cigarette butts on the floor but that bit of information was swept under the rug, because Lee Oswald didn't smoke.

This is Walt Fabrication #54.  What reports?
Title: Re: When did Brennan take up position?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 19, 2019, 08:12:36 PM
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I'm not being antagonistic or arguing...but .... HOW do you know that "Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor."   

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

So JJ and HN were already there on the fifth floor when BRW left the sixth floor.