JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Dan DAlimonte on January 31, 2018, 05:27:53 PM

Title: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of a patsy begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 31, 2018, 05:27:53 PM
To me - unless Oswald was the unluckiest person who ever lived, damned if he did
or damned if he didn't - there can only be two possibilities.

a)  He was indeed the lone gunman or ... 

b) (My preference.)  He was part of a team and for some reason
- and it had to be a damn good reason - the government in their final report
had to make it appear like he acted alone.

Let's consider the following for starters.

Why was it so important that he went home that Thursday afternoon
when he could have gone on Friday (as was his habit) and spend the entire weekend
with his family?  He wanted to have a reconciliation with his wife and that couldn't have
waited a single day?

He left his wedding ring behind and a sizable amount of money that Friday morning. 
His marriage was over or was he saying good bye because at day's end he would either
be long gone or dead.

He left the building because ....

And before he left the building because ...

Just what was his reaction or lack of one when he found out something took
place on the very street where he worked at the same time the President was coming by.

Conspiracy and cover up does not equal Saint Oswald to me.







Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on January 31, 2018, 08:44:52 PM
Not one credible witness exists or existed for that matter to verify if Oswald even went home on that Thursday 21/11/63 we can't go by Marina because a lot suggests that she was subject to an extreme element of mind control in the aftermath, lets not forget her first interview with the magazine, before she went through all of the interogations, it reported that the last time she saw Lee was Thursday over a week prior to the shootings, it went on in the article that he was in good spirits and they discussed getting their own home together.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Please find Marinas first interview on page 39 on that link, where she mentions seeing him for the last time pre shootings, one week before the day. he lifted up his infant Daughter and was in high spirits, he talked of them finding a family home and buying Christmas presents, before returning to his tiny apartment for another week of work, this was the last time Marina seen her Husband before he was arrested
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 31, 2018, 09:29:41 PM
Not one credible witness exists or existed for that matter to verify if Oswald even went home on that Thursday 21/11/63 we can't go by Marina because a lot suggests that she was subject to an extreme element of mind control in the aftermath, lets not forget her first interview with the magazine, before she went through all of the interogations, it reported that the last time she saw Lee was Thursday over a week prior to the shootings, it went on in the article that he was in good spirits and they discussed getting their own home together.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Please find Marinas first interview on page 39 on that link, where she mentions seeing him for the last time pre shootings, one week before the day. he lifted up his infant Daughter and was in high spirits, he talked of them finding a family home and buying Christmas presents, before returning to his tiny apartment for another week of work, this was the last time Marina seen her Husband before he was arrested

You changed "looking for an apartment" to "finding a family home", and upgraded Oswald's "tiny room" to "tiny apartment".
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on January 31, 2018, 09:33:28 PM
You changed "looking for an apartment" to "finding a family home", and upgraded Oswald's "tiny room" to "tiny apartment".

Yes well shoot me for it, but before you pull that trigger orangeman ;D don't you think that these minute changes, made by me, are very minimal compared to Marina seeing Oswald one week before the assasination, as she suggested to the magazine while everything was fresh in her memory, and what we are led to believe that he went to the Paines on the 21.11.63 to collect the curtainriflerod
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 31, 2018, 09:37:10 PM

To me - unless Oswald was the unluckiest person who ever lived, damned if he did
or damned if he didn't - there can only be two possibilities.

a)  He was indeed the lone gunman or ... 

b) (My preference.)  He was part of a team and for some reason
- and it had to be a damn good reason - the government in their final report
had to make it appear like he acted alone.

Let's consider the following for starters.

Why was it so important that he went home that Thursday afternoon
when he could have gone on Friday (as was his habit) and spend the entire weekend
with his family?  He wanted to have a reconciliation with his wife and that couldn't have
waited a single day?

He left his wedding ring behind and a sizable amount of money that Friday morning. 
His marriage was over or was he saying good bye because at day's end he would either
be long gone or dead.

He left the building because ....

And before he left the building because ...

Just what was his reaction or lack of one when he found out something took
place on the very street where he worked at the same time the President was coming by.

Conspiracy and cover up does not equal Saint Oswald to me.

Why was it so important that he went home that Thursday afternoon

Lee knew that he would be fleeing to Cuba after the hoax attempt to shoot JFK.   He knew that he wouldn't see Marina or his daughters for quite awhile...... 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on January 31, 2018, 09:39:00 PM
Why was it so important that he went home that Thursday afternoon

Lee knew that he would be fleeing to Cuba after the hoax attempt to shoot JFK.   He knew that he wouldn't see Marina or his daughters for quite awhile......

Walt don't derail this thread lets deal with Marinas interview to the magazine and what she said in it about when she last seen her Husband
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 31, 2018, 09:39:31 PM
Why was it so important that he went home that Thursday afternoon

Lee knew that he would be fleeing to Cuba after the hoax attempt to shoot JFK.   He knew that he wouldn't see Marina or his daughters for quite awhile......

"Fun With Fabrications" by Mervin Walter Cakebread.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 31, 2018, 09:59:13 PM
Walt don't derail this thread lets deal with Marinas interview to the magazine and what she said in it about when she last seen her Husband

Do you think Marina knew the real reason that Lee visited his family on Thursday?
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on January 31, 2018, 10:02:30 PM
Do you think Marina knew the real reason that Lee visited his family on Thursday?
https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
Did you even bother to read the article of her interview? it's on page 39!! she is not talking about Thursday 21.11.63 she said she seen him last a week before the assasination.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 31, 2018, 10:46:42 PM
https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
Did you even bother to read the article of her interview? it's on page 39!! she is not talking about Thursday 21.11.63 she said she seen him last a week before the assasination.

Hey, Mick.  Good to hear from you again.  I tried to read the article but the type was too small
but IF it does say what you referenced then you should keep the following in mind and that's the way
Fritz treated Frazier in the DPD.  He wouldn't have been pressing Frazier so hard if he didn't have some kind of connection with Oswald that morning ... when he drove him to work.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on January 31, 2018, 11:08:34 PM
Hey, Mick.  Good to hear from you again.  I tried to read the article but the type was too small
but IF it does say what you referenced then you should keep the following in mind and that's the way
Fritz treated Frazier in the DPD.  He wouldn't have been pressing Frazier so hard if he didn't have some kind of connection with Oswald that morning ... when he drove him to work.

Yes Dan it's great to be still on board and communicating, although I tend to go away for a few months from this especially during the summer plenty of outdoor activities, so lets make the most of it.
If you click on that link a magnifying glass icon should be up top left of the screen.
To be honest I don't think we can take anything what Frazier or Fritz said as being fact, I would tend to take what Marina said in that interview, and run with it, this was only a week post shots and her last meeting with Oswald would have been very clear in her mind, she would not have had any interogation by the gestapo at this point.
No doubt about it if she had slept with Oswald on the 21.11.63 then she would have mentioned it in that interview, and all of the BS about him leaving the ring etc, if you take everything else into consideration re him liking Kennedy etc and her saying he Lee was in good spirits and laughing with his kid, I don't think the magazine made up lies.
I don't trust Fraziers Paines Or Randles evidence at all, they come across as right wing KKK heads to me, so Oswald was their enemy as was J.F.K

When I add Milteers comments to the informer re a local guy being picked up to  throw the public off, with evidence such as this article It becomes very clear in my mind that Lee Harvey Oswald was totally innocent of these crimes he was as he said a patsy, meaning someone who gets blamed on things, in his Mothers words he was persecuted.

 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 31, 2018, 11:47:50 PM
Yes Dan it's great to be still on board and communicating, although I tend to go away for a few months from this especially during the summer plenty of outdoor activities, so lets make the most of it.
If you click on that link a magnifying glass should be up top left of the screen.
To be honest I don't think we can take anything what Frazier or Fritz said as being fact, I would tend to take what Marina said in that interview, and run with it, this was only a week post shots and her last meeting with Oswald would have been very clear in her mind, she would not have had any interogation by the gestapo at this point.
No doubt about it if she had slept with Oswald on the 21.11.63 then she would have mentioned it in that interview, and all of the BS about him leaving the ring etc, if you take everything else into consideration re him liking Kennedy etc and her saying he Lee was in good spirits and laughing with his kid, I don't think the magazine made up lies.
I don't trust Fraziers Paines Or Randles evidence at all, they come across as right wing KKK heads to me, so Oswald was their enemy as was J.F.K

When I add Milteers comments to the informer re a local guy being picked up to  throw the public off, with evidence such as this article It becomes very clear in my mind that Lee Harvey Oswald was totally innocent of these crimes he was as he said a patsy.

Yup, Mick that's what it says ... on the weekend before last ... last time before she saw him arrested ... high spirits ... happy to still be working another week ... planning to move the family to an apartment
before Christmas.  Here again we go with the damned if he did or damned if he didn't.  If you think about it
it would be far easier to set him up without any witnesses testifying how he may have brought in the rifle
from Irving than his rooming house.

 Btw ... John Mytton when he brought up  V. B's, 53 pieces if evidence against Oswald dramatized
how he was that Thursday night.  He kept turning off the TV when Marina tried to watch Kennedy. 
That supposedly came from Marina herself.  What a case
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Paul McBrearty on January 31, 2018, 11:53:29 PM
Oswald Framed. LOL.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on January 31, 2018, 11:56:23 PM
Yup, Mick that's what it says ... on the weekend before last ... last time before she saw him arrested ... high spirits ... happy to still be working another week ... planning to move the family to an apartment
before Christmas.  Here again we go with the damned if he did or damned if he didn't.  If you think about it
it would be far easier to set him up without any witnesses testifying how he may have brought in the rifle
from Irving than his rooming house.

 Btw ... John Mytton when he brought up  V. B's, 53 pieces if evidence against Oswald dramatized
how he was that Thursday night.  He kept turning off the TV when Marina tried to watch Kennedy. 
That supposedly came from Marina herself.  What a case
A lot of damming evidence came from her after the gestapo primed her to their way of thinking, once again her interview with life magazine in the very early stages contradicts every foundation that the case against Oswald was built upon
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 31, 2018, 11:58:53 PM
Btw ... John Mytton when he brought up  V. B's, 53 pieces if evidence against Oswald dramatized
how he was that Thursday night.  He kept turning off the TV when Marina tried to watch Kennedy. 
That supposedly came from Marina herself.  What a case

I think that comes from the fevered imagination of whoever made the 1977 "The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald" movie.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on February 01, 2018, 12:24:37 AM

So, just to double check this ... had he not gone home that Thursday
the assassination would still have taken place?  So, when does it end?
Damned if he did, damned if he didn't? 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 01, 2018, 12:41:01 AM
So, just to double check this ... had he not gone home that Thursday
the assassination would still have taken place?  So, when does it end?
Damned if he did, damned if he didn't?
According to Marina he did not go home to her on the Thursday 21.11.63, and of course the assasination still took place, for some reason if her story to the magazine is correct, the entire trip to Irving by Oswald to collect the curtainriflerod was invented, by Frazier his sister and Ruth Paine. Marina was then programmed at a later stage to follow this line with them.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 01, 2018, 02:15:45 AM
A lot of damming evidence came from her after the gestapo primed her to their way of thinking, once again her interview with life magazine in the very early stages contradicts every foundation that the case against Oswald was built upon

A lot of damming evidence came from her after the gestapo primed her to their way of thinking,

Marina didn't know much beyond what the authorities were telling her .....  She was in no position to argue with them or refute their tales.   She knew that Lee had been involved in the Walker incident so she thought that possibly Lee had shot JFK  as the authorities were telling her.

In short ....she was confused and scared to death.....Just as Buell Frazier was.... 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 01, 2018, 02:44:05 AM
According to Marina he did not go home to her on the Thursday 21.11.63, and of course the assasination still took place, for some reason if her story to the magazine is correct, the entire trip to Irving by Oswald to collect the curtainriflerod was invented, by Frazier his sister and Ruth Paine. Marina was then programmed at a later stage to follow this line with them.

This beaut would slot nicely with Fratini's paper bag theory.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on February 01, 2018, 03:24:17 AM
A lot of damming evidence came from her after the gestapo primed her to their way of thinking,

Marina didn't know much beyond what the authorities were telling her .....  She was in no position to argue with them or refute their tales.   She knew that Lee had been involved in the Walker incident so she thought that possibly Lee had shot JFK  as the authorities were telling her.

In short ....she was confused and scared to death.....Just as Buell Frazier was....

Do you think both Marina and Buell are scared to death now?
Since they both must be in their 70's and they'll be forever linked to this case
anyway why not go on TV and come clean with what happened esp if it's different
from the official narrative?  I was afraid they would deport me.  I was afraid they'd kill me.
The public would understand. 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Joe Elliott on February 01, 2018, 04:08:15 AM


Not one credible witness exists or existed for that matter to verify if Oswald even went home on that Thursday 21/11/63 we can't go by Marina because a lot suggests that she was subject to an extreme element of mind control in the aftermath, . . .


So, Frazier is lying when he says he drove Oswald from work to (near) the Paine?s house? Frazier is lying when he says he drove Oswald from (near) the Paine?s house to work? Frazier?s sister is lying when she saw Oswald put a package into her brother?s car?

Can we imagine the police questioning Frazier for hours about him helping Oswald commit the assassination while Frazier was telling him he did not know that Oswald brought a rifle to work? Indeed, he was not even aware of driving to work with Oswald.



Is it not true that any witness who says something that suggests Oswald might be guilty becomes a noncredible witness, automatically?



Why should we stop there? Why shouldn?t we declare that there are no credible witnesses that Oswald went home to visit his wife on Thursday night, no credible witnesses that Oswald even went into work on Friday morning and no credible witnesses that Oswald was found in a theater 75 minutes after the assassination.




. . . lets not forget her first interview with the magazine, before she went through all of the interogations, it reported that the last time she saw Lee was Thursday over a week prior to the shootings, it went on in the article that he was in good spirits and they discussed getting their own home together.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Please find Marinas first interview on page 39 on that link, where she mentions seeing him for the last time pre shootings, one week before the day. he lifted up his infant Daughter and was in high spirits, he talked of them finding a family home and buying Christmas presents, before returning to his tiny apartment for another week of work, this was the last time Marina seen her Husband before he was arrested


Easily explained that Marina was afraid that they might charge her with being an accessory. Anything that leads to Oswald guilty, like a trip to the house where he may have picked up the rifle, maybe handed the rifle by Marina, would cause a natural lie that she hadn?t seen him for several days.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 01, 2018, 03:23:04 PM


Easily explained that Marina was afraid that they might charge her with being an accessory. Anything that leads to Oswald guilty, like a trip to the house where he may have picked up the rifle, maybe handed the rifle by Marina, would cause a natural lie that she hadn?t seen him for several days.

No No No you she was only talking to a magazine reporter at this stage, the gestapo had not begun their programme on her just yet they just had her Husband wasted, she had no reason to lie and she continued he was a good man, he did not do it.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 01, 2018, 04:35:20 PM
No No No you she was only talking to a magazine reporter at this stage, the gestapo had not begun their programme yet, she had no reason to lie and she continued he was a good man, he did not do it.

The Tommy Thompson article was submitted before Oswald was terminated with extreme prejudice. Thompson was back in Los Angeles when that happened.

To accommodate the information that Oswald had died, the article text (and I would assume particularly the end portion) was edited. Because of time limitations, it's possible Thompson wasn't involved in the revision.

The original Thompson article was published in a small number of Life issues. I believe it was titled "Assassin: The Man Held for Kennedy's Murder". The banner was then changed and the Jack Beers photo added, along with the story updates.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 01, 2018, 05:36:15 PM
The Tommy Thompson article was submitted before Oswald was terminated with extreme prejudice. Thompson was back in Los Angeles when that happened.

To accommodate the information that Oswald had died, the article text (and I would assume particularly the end portion) was edited. Because of time limitations, it's possible Thompson wasn't involved in the revision.

The original Thompson article was published in a small number of Life issues. I believe it was titled "Assassin: The Man Held for Kennedy's Murder". The banner was then changed and the Jack Beers photo added, along with the story updates.
Thanks for that info!!! So the interview must have taken place on Friday evening or during Saturday 23.11.63 Very interesting how her version of events regarding her last meeting with her Husband changed
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Larry Baldwin on February 01, 2018, 05:44:05 PM
This beaut would slot nicely with Fratini's paper bag theory.

Why don't you pull your head out of the sand, go back to Fratini's "Paper Bag theory" thread, and answer the questions left for you. 

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,159.70.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,159.70.html)
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 01, 2018, 05:54:17 PM
Why don't you pull your head out of the sand, go back to Fratini's "Paper Bag theory" thread, and answer the questions left for you. 

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,159.70.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,159.70.html)

So how much of this topic's theory (that Oswald didn't go to Irving on Nov 21) do you, apparently a Fratini supporter, believe?
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Larry Baldwin on February 01, 2018, 07:41:11 PM
So how much of this topic's theory (that Oswald didn't go to Irving on Nov 21) do you, apparently a Fratini supporter, believe?

I am not sure why you would assume that I believe any of it (or that I am a Fratini supporter).  I happened to like Fratini's post and noticed that you failed to engage in what I can only assume you believed to be a losing battle.

Incidentally, I haven't read the interview but, if Marina was interviewed a week after the shots and says the last time she saw Lee was the previous Thursday, then she is probably referring to the night before the shots. 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on February 01, 2018, 08:28:33 PM
I am not sure why you would assume that I believe any of it (or that I am a Fratini supporter).  I happened to like Fratini's post and noticed that you failed to engage in what I can only assume you believed to be a losing battle.

Incidentally, I haven't read the interview but, if Marina was interviewed a week after the shots and says the last time she saw Lee was the previous Thursday, then she is probably referring to the night before the shots.

Hey, Larry.  The interview with Life took place when Oswald was still alive.
So in essence, Oswald did not go home that Thursday and therefore couldn't have
smuggled in a rifle on Friday morning.  This means that any witness who testified
that he did go home was coerced to lie about it.  Which is easier to believe - she
left out that Thursday visit or that happier visit - the weekend before last - was indeed the
last time she saw her husband.

Of course, if he didn't go home ... this means the planners of his patsy hood had
Oswald already implicated whether he came from Irving or from his rooming house.
So why coerce people who could eventually tell the truth about the matter when they could
have said  - it was his rifle so he must have somehow smuggled it in before the President came.

Btw .. if it was that easy to coerce his wife and co-worker what would have prevented them
from coercing a bus driver or a passenger or a stranger had he left his rooming house and state
... Come to think of it.  I did see him carrying a package when he entered the bus.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Richard Smith on February 01, 2018, 08:32:13 PM
Do you think both Marina and Buell are scared to death now?
Since they both must be in their 70's and they'll be forever linked to this case
anyway why not go on TV and come clean with what happened esp if it's different
from the official narrative?  I was afraid they would deport me.  I was afraid they'd kill me.
The public would understand.

Good point.  Both Marina and Frazier have freely expressed doubts about Oswald's guilt.  But we must believe they are still too scared to set the record straight by confirming that Oswald didn't go to Irving on Thursday.  LOL I thought I had heard it all by now from CTers but that one is a real whopper.  Conspiracy theory in this case is, at its core, a child-like faith that anyone who provides evidence of Oswald's guilt is suspect and a liar.  Even if these same people are relied upon in other instances to support his innocence.  Like Frazier and his two-foot long bag.  Imagine the plan behind that one in this context.  They get Frazier to lie about Oswald going to Irving and carrying a long bag to frame Oswald but then he won't confirm that the bag (which would not have existed at all if Oswald didn't actually make that trip) was long enough to carry the rifle.  The entire intent of this fabrication.  That is fall on the ground laughing material.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Larry Baldwin on February 01, 2018, 08:33:26 PM
Hey, Larry.  The interview with Life took place when Oswald was still alive.
So in essence, Oswald did not go home that Thursday and therefore couldn't have
smuggled in a rifle on Friday morning.  This means that any witness who testified
that he did go home was coerced to lie about it.  Which is easier to believe - she
left out that Thursday visit or that happier visit - the weekend before last - was indeed the
last time she saw her husband.

Of course, if he didn't go home ... this means the planners of his patsy hood had
Oswald already implicated whether he came from Irving or from his rooming house.
So why coerce people who could eventually tell the truth about the matter when they could
have said  - it was his rifle so he must have somehow smuggled it in before the President came.

I finally read it.  However, their are no direct quotes from Marina stating that the weekend prior to the assassination was the last time that she saw Lee.  It is the journalist telling the story, not Marina.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on February 01, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
Good point.  Both Marina and Frazier have freely expressed doubts about Oswald's guilt.  But we must believe they are still too scared to set the record straight by confirming that Oswald didn't go to Irving on Thursday.  LOL I thought I had heard it all by now from CTers but that one is a real whopper.  Conspiracy theory in this case is, at its core, a child-like faith that anyone who provides evidence of Oswald's guilt is suspect and a liar.  Even if these same people are relied upon in other instances to support his innocence.  Like Frazier and his two-foot long bag.  Imagine the plan behind that one in this context.  They get Frazier to lie about Oswald going to Irving and carrying a long bag to frame Oswald but then he won't confirm that the bag (which would not have existed at all if Oswald didn't actually make that trip) was long enough to carry the rifle.  The entire intent of this fabrication.  That is fall on the ground laughing material.

I agree.  This is the first assassination of a political figure that I know of, where two targets
had to be in place at the same time
.
Yes - we see the President approaching.  There is no bubble top on the limo and no SS
on the back bumper.  Is it a go? 

That depends - Is the patsy in place?  Is the evidence to frame the patsy in place, as well?

Well, the evidence is planted but last night the patsy was struck with a bowel disorder.
He's in the hospital.

Do it anyway ... We'll still make him look like he did it.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 01, 2018, 09:48:21 PM
I finally read it.  However, their are no direct quotes from Marina stating that the weekend prior to the assassination was the last time that she saw Lee.  It is the journalist telling the story, not Marina.

He told Marina that soon they could go and get a new home together, this does not sound like the same guy who left his wedding ring behind and killed the POTUS because his wife would not reconcile
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and framing a patsy begins?
Post by: John Anderson on February 02, 2018, 12:45:36 AM
If coercing people was so easy why is the evidence such a shambles? Surely Frazier and sister would have been adamant the bag was 3 feet long. Marina would confirm she saw the paper and tape the night before and Ruth Paine saw Oswald leaving the garage at 1am with a screw driver and scissors. A few spare 6.5 mm rounds lying around would have helped as well.

Why would so many people be allowed in the trauma room or at the autopsy if they were covering anything up? Two pathologists and a technician or two in a private setting would be the preferred course of action. Room protected from outside by the secret service so the pathologists could bash the head in with a hammer, destroying unwanted evidence. Why didn't those easily coerced people plant numerous clear finger prints from Oswald all over the rifle, the bag, the boxes or Tippits car?

Why didn't they easily coerce witnesses to testify they saw Oswald and only Oswald shooting from the 6th floor window? Why didn't they just sew things thing up tight right from the offset? Lets not forget about the unspoken witnesses. Those who would have seen Oswald somewhere else that Thursday night and Friday morning if he wasn't at the Paines. They would need to be coerced easily as well.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Larry Baldwin on February 02, 2018, 01:05:10 PM
He told Marina that soon they could go and get a new home together, this does not sound like the same guy who left his wedding ring behind and killed the POTUS because his wife would not reconcile

Once again, we have a journalist who may or may not have reported correctly on dates and we have Marina who changed her story many times.  It is simply not definitive enough for me.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Bill Brown on February 02, 2018, 01:17:26 PM
Not one credible witness exists or existed for that matter to verify if Oswald even went home on that Thursday 21/11/63 we can't go by Marina because a lot suggests that she was subject to an extreme element of mind control in the aftermath, lets not forget her first interview with the magazine, before she went through all of the interogations, it reported that the last time she saw Lee was Thursday over a week prior to the shootings, it went on in the article that he was in good spirits and they discussed getting their own home together.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=U1IEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Please find Marinas first interview on page 39 on that link, where she mentions seeing him for the last time pre shootings, one week before the day. he lifted up his infant Daughter and was in high spirits, he talked of them finding a family home and buying Christmas presents, before returning to his tiny apartment for another week of work, this was the last time Marina seen her Husband before he was arrested


Quote
Please find Marinas first interview on page 39 on that link, where she mentions seeing him for the last time pre shootings, one week before the day...

The article does not quote Marina saying such a thing.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Bill Brown on February 02, 2018, 01:21:19 PM
Hey, Larry.  The interview with Life took place when Oswald was still alive.
So in essence, Oswald did not go home that Thursday and therefore couldn't have
smuggled in a rifle on Friday morning.  This means that any witness who testified
that he did go home was coerced to lie about it.  Which is easier to believe - she
left out that Thursday visit or that happier visit - the weekend before last - was indeed the
last time she saw her husband.

Of course, if he didn't go home ... this means the planners of his patsy hood had
Oswald already implicated whether he came from Irving or from his rooming house.
So why coerce people who could eventually tell the truth about the matter when they could
have said  - it was his rifle so he must have somehow smuggled it in before the President came.

Btw .. if it was that easy to coerce his wife and co-worker what would have prevented them
from coercing a bus driver or a passenger or a stranger had he left his rooming house and state
... Come to think of it.  I did see him carrying a package when he entered the bus.

Read the article, Dan.  It does not quote Marina saying that the last time she saw Lee was the previous week.  Read the article before you reference it.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Bill Brown on February 02, 2018, 01:22:19 PM
I finally read it.  However, their are no direct quotes from Marina stating that the weekend prior to the assassination was the last time that she saw Lee.  It is the journalist telling the story, not Marina.

Bingo!  We have a winner.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on February 02, 2018, 01:40:29 PM
Read the article, Dan.  It does not quote Marina saying that the last time she saw Lee was the previous week.  Read the article before you reference it.

Yup,  The article stated but Marina wasn't quoted as saying it.
The point I was trying to make was how the patsy-fication of Oswald
doesn't make any sense without Oswald's actions.  Hypothetically speaking
if he didn't go home that Thursday and left for work the next day from his rooming
house, they still believe the rifle got in the building by invisible hands of some sort.
The same invisible hands that shaped his destiny.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and framing a patsy begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 02, 2018, 01:50:59 PM


Why didn't they easily coerce witnesses to testify they saw Oswald and only Oswald shooting from the 6th floor window? Why didn't they just sew things thing up tight right from the offset? Lets not forget about the unspoken witnesses. Those who would have seen Oswald somewhere else that Thursday night and Friday morning if he wasn't at the Paines. They would need to be coerced easily as well.

I think that a witness existed who said she had a full conversation with Oswald in a fast food restaurant on the night before the assasination, I will try locate the link.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Joe Elliott on February 02, 2018, 01:53:36 PM

I agree.  This is the first assassination of a political figure that I know of, where two targets
had to be in place at the same time
.
Yes - we see the President approaching.  There is no bubble top on the limo and no SS
on the back bumper.  Is it a go? 

That depends - Is the patsy in place?  Is the evidence to frame the patsy in place, as well?

Well, the evidence is planted but last night the patsy was struck with a bowel disorder.
He's in the hospital.

Do it anyway ... We'll still make him look like he did it.



With Vice President Johnson on the phone telling the Parkland doctors that they must have the patient discharged by Friday morning.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 02, 2018, 05:22:50 PM
Read the article, Dan.  It does not quote Marina saying that the last time she saw Lee was the previous week.  Read the article before you reference it.

Bill read this testimony of Oswalds Mother the article might have been translated from Marina, by an old lady whom you met https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh1/html/WC_Vol1_0078b.htm 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 02, 2018, 05:23:54 PM
Good point.  Both Marina and Frazier have freely expressed doubts about Oswald's guilt.  But we must believe they are still too scared to set the record straight by confirming that Oswald didn't go to Irving on Thursday.  LOL I thought I had heard it all by now from CTers but that one is a real whopper.  Conspiracy theory in this case is, at its core, a child-like faith that anyone who provides evidence of Oswald's guilt is suspect and a liar.  Even if these same people are relied upon in other instances to support his innocence.  Like Frazier and his two-foot long bag.  Imagine the plan behind that one in this context.  They get Frazier to lie about Oswald going to Irving and carrying a long bag to frame Oswald but then he won't confirm that the bag (which would not have existed at all if Oswald didn't actually make that trip) was long enough to carry the rifle.  The entire intent of this fabrication.  That is fall on the ground laughing material.

Both Marina and Frazier have freely expressed doubts about Oswald's guilt.  But we must believe they are still too scared to set the record straight ... 

Scared??.....  Maybe.... But also reluctant to upset their lives. IOW   They may be content to leave the sleeping dog lie.

They both recognize that they are mere "piss ants" ( as LBJ called us)   What's to be gained by "rocking the boat"?

Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on February 02, 2018, 09:43:38 PM
Bill read this testimony of Oswalds Mother the article might have been translated from Marina, by an old lady whom you met https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh1/html/WC_Vol1_0078b.htm

Hey, Mick.  It does seem Mrs Paine did set up the Life interview but while giving Lee compliments
on whether or not he was a good family man she states ...  A normal family man.  He plays with his
children. Last night he fed June.  He watches television and just normal family things.  - Top of page
145. 
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 02, 2018, 10:07:27 PM
Hey, Mick.  It does seem Mrs Paine did set up the Life interview but while giving Lee compiments
on whether or not he was a good family man she states ...  A normal family man.  He plays with his
children. Last night he fed June.  He watches television and just normal family things.  - Top of page
145. 

Incidentally on Page 149 Lee's mother states as she was waiting in the courthouse to see her son   
someone came up to her and said your visit will be delayed but we have picked up another suspect.
Anyone know who the suspect was?  Molina?  This would be Saturday the day after.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh1/html/WC_Vol1_0081a.htm

Yes I read that Dan, we have a lot of conflicting sections between the article and the testimony, it would seem that she not only organised the life interview but on the first day 22.11 she dictated and jumbled up some of Marinas words from Russian to English to the reporters, I note your topic where she said he fed his Daughter last night, according to Margurites testimony, but in the article as you know it does not imply that he was in Irving on 21.11. I would suggest that this section came from the Russian translator directly dictated to her by Marina on the 23.11, confusing stuff no doubt, such a pity this interpreter was no reachable for testimony
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2018, 09:47:41 PM
This beaut would slot nicely with Fratini's paper bag theory.

There's more evidence for Fratini's paper bag theory than there is for the Warren Commission's paper bag theory.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2018, 09:50:04 PM
Conspiracy theory in this case is, at its core, a child-like faith that anyone who provides evidence of Oswald's guilt is suspect and a liar.

That would require somebody actually providing evidence of Oswald's guilt.
Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of him begins?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2018, 10:36:32 PM
That would require somebody actually providing evidence of Oswald's guilt.

That would require somebody actually providing evidence of Oswald's guilt.

Therein lies the problem.....  Hoover's Mafia DID provide some "proof"   ......

Example:   The FBI told us that the Mannlicher Carcano was the murder weapon....  and very few challenge that statement.  ( who could?  and how could they challenge ?)

So we are forced to use Hoover's assertion, and much of the case is based on the "fact" that the mannlicher carcano was the murder weapon.....   

Title: Re: So when does Oswald's own actions end and the framing of a patsy begins?
Post by: John Anderson on February 08, 2018, 01:05:38 AM
There's a difference between proof and evidence.