JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tom Scully on January 22, 2019, 04:20:42 AM

Title: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Tom Scully on January 22, 2019, 04:20:42 AM
Quote
https://medium.com/@Jack_ElHai/why-did-the-fbi-investigate-john-wilkes-booth-a-half-century-after-his-death-ab710ff5eb44
Why did the FBI investigate John Wilkes Booth more than 75 years after his death?
Jan 10, 2019
Jack El-Hai

...Admit it ? if you?re a lover of history, you probably believe that reading something especially intriguing can transport you through time. I have that experience almost every time I browse FBI files on notable people and events....
......A few years ago I learned that John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Abraham Lincoln in 1865, is the subject of another bulky FBI file, which is surprising because the FBI did not come into existence until six decades after Booth?s crime and death. What could possibly be in a file compiled so long after Lincoln?s assassination?

Did Booth elude capture?

The oldest pages of the file discuss the possibility that Booth escaped capture after he shot Lincoln. A Missourian who wrote to Bureau of Investigation director William J. Burns in 1922 claimed that his neighbor either was Booth or was in correspondence with the assassin. Burns replied skeptically that the agency was ?inclined to believe official records in the case of John Wilkes Booth, and do[es] not feel that any investigation is necessary? to follow up.

Yet the following year, when another letter writer suggested that Burns read a book promoting a theory that Booth successfully fled his captors, the director seemed to have changed his mind. ?The work
Quote
"The Escape and Suicide of John Wilkes Booth" by Finis L. Bates of Memphis, Tennessee.
contains very strong evidence in support of the old belief that Booth did escape and live many years after the assassination of President Lincoln,? Burns wrote. Was the agency?s director really among the believers? The file offers no further details.[/b]

The FBI gets the boot

The agency?s next encounter with Booth, as documented in the file, came in 1948, when the superintendent of the National Park Service?s U.S. capital properties sent the FBI an odd artifact in his charge: a boot that Booth was wearing when Dr. Samuel Mudd treated the left leg that the fugitive injured when he leapt from a theater balcony after shooting the president. Inside the boot was some faint writing. Could the FBI?s experts make out what it said?

Booth?s wanted poster
The short answer, laid out in a report that director J. Edgar Hoover prefaced and signed, was that despite examining the boot?s interior with ultraviolet and infrared light, the FBI could not determine what the writing said beyond giving the name of the boot maker. The agency then returned the boot, and it has been displayed at Ford?s Theatre Museum in Washington D.C.

Diary of an Assassin

Most of the FBI?s file on Booth concerns an analysis of a pocket diary that Booth carried with him when he was tracked down and killed in 1865. In 1977, yet another administrator with the National Park Service?s National Capital properties asked the FBI to examine this little book ?in order to rest any question about the possibility of invisible writing in the diary,? he wrote. (The concerns of the Park Service grew from the release that same year of The Lincoln Conspiracy, a film that alleged the secret involvement of Secretary of War Edwin Stanton in the president?s death.) In addition, the Park Service hoped that the FBI would authenticate Booth?s handwriting by comparing the handscript in the diary with the handwriting in letters known to have been composed by Booth.

The FBI exposed the historical artifact to a variety of light frequencies, including ultraviolet, fluorescence with ultraviolet excitation, infrared, and x-ray. No hidden notations appeared. The agency judged the handwriting to be Booth?s and also confirmed that 27 sheets were missing from the diary. The absence of these pages had been known since 1867.

Unfortunately, Washington newspaper columnist Jack Anderson erroneously reported that the FBI was also analyzing these previously missing pages. The FBI denied having them, and the pages have never turned up. Like the boot, the diary has been exhibited at the Ford?s Theatre Museum.

That?s plenty of investigative intrigue for one file.....

(http://jfkforum.com/images/FBIvaultJohnWilkesBooth1923_1977.jpg)

Was Gen. Lafayette C. Baker poisoned?
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette_C._Baker#Lincoln_assassination_investigation
Lafayette Curry Baker (October 13, 1826 ? July 3, 1868) was a United States investigator and spy, serving the Union Army, during the American Civil War and under Presidents Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnSecurityDetailJohnSDodge1894.jpg)
.....
constitutional rights of those he pursued. He is also reported to have employed brutal interrogation techniques in order to obtain information."[4]

Baker owed his appointment largely to Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, but suspected the secretary of corruption and was eventually demoted for tapping his telegraph lines and packed off to New York.

Lincoln assassination investigation
Baker was recalled to Washington after the assassination of President Lincoln in 1865. Within two days of his arrival in Washington, Baker's agents in Maryland had made four arrests and had the names of two more conspirators, including the actual presidential assassin John Wilkes Booth. Before the month was out, Booth along with David Herold were found holed up in a barn and Booth was himself shot and killed by Sgt. Boston Corbett. Baker received a generous share of the $100,000 reward offered to the person who apprehended the president's killer.[5] President Andrew Johnson nominated Baker for appointment to the grade of brigadier general of volunteers, April 26, 1865, but the United States Senate never confirmed the appointment.[1] Baker was mustered out of the volunteers on January 15, 1866.[1]

Firing and death
The following year, Baker was sacked from his position as government spymaster. President Johnson accused him of spying on him, a charge Baker admitted in his book which he published in response. He also announced that he had had Booth's diary in his possession which was being suppressed by the Department of War and Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton. When the diary was eventually produced, Baker claimed that eighteen vital pages were missing. It was suggested by Otto Eisenschiml in his book, "Why Was Lincoln Murdered?," that these would implicate Stanton in the assassination.[6] However, this notion has been proven as speculation by author Edward Steers Jr. and based on non-reputable sources.[7]

On July 3, 1868, Baker retired to home complaining of soreness from a gun wound during a hunting trip. He had been out drinking with Wally Pollack, his brother-in-law, and came home feeling sick, passing away later that night, reportedly from meningitis.[1]

A widely criticized 1977 book, The Lincoln Conspiracy by conspiracy theorists David W. Balsiger and Charles E. Sellier, alleges that Baker was poisoned by high-placed conspirators, including Stanton, who supported John Wilkes Booth's plan to kidnap Abraham Lincoln in 1864 and early 1865. The conspirators supposedly planned to have Lincoln impeached in his absence. The authors speculate that the conspirators were concerned that Baker could link them to the planned kidnapping, which might lead to accusations that they were conspirators in Lincoln's assassination. The authors believe the conspirators did not support Booth after March 1865. Academic historians have treated the book with hostility and derision, having many objections based on errors and misuse of sources in the book.[8]....
1961 Associated Press nationally distributed reporting of 1957 Ray Neff of Gibbsboro, NJ discovery of Lafayette Baker confession allegedly found in old book in
a Philadelphia bookstore.:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SBS19610731.1.2&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1
San Bernardino Sun, Volume 67, 31 July 1961
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnRayNeff1957BakerStanton_1of3.jpg)
Continued in article image below:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnRayNeff1957BakerStanton_2of3.jpg)
question about the message and
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnRayNeff1957BakerStanton_3of3.jpg)
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on January 23, 2019, 01:42:42 AM
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contains very strong evidence in support of the old belief that Booth did escape and live many years after the assassination of President Lincoln,? Burns wrote. Was the agency?s director really among the believers? The file offers no further details.[/b]

The FBI gets the boot

The agency?s next encounter with Booth, as documented in the file, came in 1948, when the superintendent of the National Park Service?s U.S. capital properties sent the FBI an odd artifact in his charge: a boot that Booth was wearing when Dr. Samuel Mudd treated the left leg that the fugitive injured when he leapt from a theater balcony after shooting the president. Inside the boot was some faint writing. Could the FBI?s experts make out what it said?

Booth?s wanted poster
The short answer, laid out in a report that director J. Edgar Hoover prefaced and signed, was that despite examining the boot?s interior with ultraviolet and infrared light, the FBI could not determine what the writing said beyond giving the name of the boot maker. The agency then returned the boot, and it has been displayed at Ford?s Theatre Museum in Washington D.C.

Diary of an Assassin

Most of the FBI?s file on Booth concerns an analysis of a pocket diary that Booth carried with him when he was tracked down and killed in 1865. In 1977, yet another administrator with the National Park Service?s National Capital properties asked the FBI to examine this little book ?in order to rest any question about the possibility of invisible writing in the diary,? he wrote. (The concerns of the Park Service grew from the release that same year of The Lincoln Conspiracy, a film that alleged the secret involvement of Secretary of War Edwin Stanton in the president?s death.) In addition, the Park Service hoped that the FBI would authenticate Booth?s handwriting by comparing the handscript in the diary with the handwriting in letters known to have been composed by Booth.

The FBI exposed the historical artifact to a variety of light frequencies, including ultraviolet, fluorescence with ultraviolet excitation, infrared, and x-ray. No hidden notations appeared. The agency judged the handwriting to be Booth?s and also confirmed that 27 sheets were missing from the diary. The absence of these pages had been known since 1867.

Unfortunately, Washington newspaper columnist Jack Anderson erroneously reported that the FBI was also analyzing these previously missing pages. The FBI denied having them, and the pages have never turned up. Like the boot, the diary has been exhibited at the Ford?s Theatre Museum.

That?s plenty of investigative intrigue for one file.....


(http://jfkforum.com/images/FBIvaultJohnWilkesBooth1923_1977.jpg)

Was Gen. Lafayette C. Baker poisoned?1961 Associated Press nationally distributed reporting of 1957 Ray Neff of Gibbsboro, NJ discovery of Lafayette Baker confession allegedly found in old book in
a Philadelphia bookstore.:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SBS19610731.1.2&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1
San Bernardino Sun, Volume 67, 31 July 1961
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnRayNeff1957BakerStanton_1of3.jpg)
Continued in article image below:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnRayNeff1957BakerStanton_2of3.jpg)
question about the message and
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKlincolnRayNeff1957BakerStanton_3of3.jpg)
Fantastic findings, Tom.  You're not the first on deconstructing Lincoln's assassination conspiracy, nor shall you be the last.  I, for one, would far rather see this case 're-opened' in Congress first than the other four that are in the 'news of the day'.  It's like the busy deli line at Safeway (or Vons, wherever your geography places you.  Ours is Carrefour, Lidl, et. al.)..... take a number and WAIT !!!

  Keep digging, sir.  I can see this can of worms re-opened in the fullness of time and history.  The past is truly prologue.  Stars in your Crown, Henry !!  And a joyous, fruitful 2019 to you as well !!

p.s.- RIP, Cookie (aka Fat Justin) +
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 04, 2019, 07:57:47 PM
Quote
Samuel James Seymour (March 28, 1860 ? April 12, 1956) was the last surviving person who had been in Ford's Theatre the night of the assassination of U.S. President Abraham Lincoln on April 14, 1865.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_J._Seymour

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Tom Scully on February 20, 2019, 04:57:50 AM
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Fantastic findings, Tom.  You're not the first on deconstructing Lincoln's assassination conspiracy, nor shall you be the last.  I, for one, would far rather see this case 're-opened' in Congress first than the other four that are in the 'news of the day'.  It's like the busy deli line at Safeway (or Vons, wherever your geography places you.  Ours is Carrefour, Lidl, et. al.)..... take a number and WAIT !!!

  Keep digging, sir.  I can see this can of worms re-opened in the fullness of time and history.  The past is truly prologue.  Stars in your Crown, Henry !!  And a joyous, fruitful 2019 to you as well !!

p.s.- RIP, Cookie (aka Fat Justin) +
Am I correctly comprehending this? This museum maintains the greater public interest is not to make a tiny sliver of
bone in its collection available for DNA testing which will destroy the bone sample, for the purpose of confirming for all
time whether John Wilkes Booth was indeed captured and killed in 1865?

Quote
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1210/booth_dna.php3?printer_friendly
Kin of Lincoln's assassin agree to brother's body ID tests
By Edward Colimore
.......
Their best option now is to compare DNA from Edwin Booth, buried in Cambridge, Mass., with a specimen from the man shot at the barn, who experts agree is buried in Baltimore. Three cervical vertebrae from that body are in the collection of the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington.

Philadelphia's Mutter Museum has cervical tissue from the man, but the DNA was degraded by formaldehyde and alcohol.

The Booth escape "is a story that never seems to die," said Jan Herman, chief historian for the Navy Medical Department and special assistant to the Navy surgeon general in Washington.

"I have always been disturbed by the opposition from recognized Civil War historians" to uncover the truth, he said.
"We have the means, and it's certainly worth solving an age-old mystery. Why wouldn't you want to do that?"

Probably no one wants to get to the bottom of it more than Nate Orlowek, a Maryland educator and historian who since age 15 has doggedly pursued Booth through the yellowing pages of books and period documents.
Quote
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/a-conspiracy-theory-to-end-all-conspiracy-theories-did-john-wilkes-booth-act-alone-229691/
JULY 1, 1976
A Conspiracy Theory to End All Conspiracy Theories: Did John Wilkes Booth Act Alone?
The starling revelations of young Nathaniel Orlowek: Did Andrew Johnson help kill President Lincoln?

By TIMOTHY CROUSE   
...Sounds like a certifiable nut theory, all right, and so far the kid?s been dismissed by every right-thinking Lincoln expert in the country. But the kid is absolutely sure that the evidence is out there ? somewhere ? if only that, damn mummy would turn up.

The kid?s name is Nathaniel Orlowek, a history whiz and freshman at the University of Maryland. I first heard of his theory a few months back and was just about to dismiss it myself until I heard about the mummy. I decided to check it out. After all, it was a pretty grim story, but a whole lot less depressing than everything else going on in Washington....
"If the man who killed our greatest president got away and a giant hoax was perpetrated on the American people, then we should know about it," he said.

Orlowek, 53, has trailed Booth through the reports of witnesses who claimed another man was shot at the farm: James William Boyd or John William Boyd, who bore a striking resemblance to the assassin and by some accounts was sought for the murder of a Union captain.

He's followed the trail of carnivals that exhibited the mummified body of a man the barkers claimed was John Wilkes Booth. And he's sought clues from descendants and interviewed forensic pathologists, authors and lawyers.

His conclusion? Booth escaped 145 years ago to live in Granbury, Texas, as John St. Helen, then changed his name to David E. George and moved to what is now Enid, Okla. He worked there as an itinerant painter before poisoning himself.

George's mummified remains were allegedly last seen at a carnival in New Hope in 1976.
Quote
https://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20130817/MAGAZINE/308179967
Outliers: Bones of contention key to John Wilkes Booth mystery
By Modern Healthcare  | August 17, 2013
The National Museum of Health and Medicine could hold the key to answering a controversy that's nearly 150 years old: Is President Lincoln's assassin actually buried in the historic Green Mount Cemetery in Baltimore?
.....
....One way to answer the question would require exhuming the body in Baltimore. Booth's descendants?supported by the Smithsonian Institution, which said it thinks the Booth escape theory is worth a closer look?filed a court case to exhume the body, but that request was denied in 1995. The judge's decision cited possibly severe water damage to the plot, evidence that siblings were buried on top of Booth, and the ?less than convincing escape/coverup theory.?

So, how does the National Museum of Health and Medicine fit in? The Silver Spring, Md., museum holds three of Booth's cervical vertebrae, which were kept by the U.S. Army after an autopsy. Given advancements in technology, DNA from the bones of Booth's thespian brother, Edwin, could be compared with DNA from the museum's bones to end the controversy. And a direct descendent has agreed to the exhumation of Edwin Booth, who was buried in Boston.

However, earlier this year, the U.S. Army Medical Command, which is in charge of the museum, denied the request, since a proposed DNA test would require using less than 0.4 grams of the bones. In a letter to Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.), who helped submit the request, the museum said ?the need to preserve these bones for future generations compels us to decline the destructive test.?


Quote
http://library.indstate.edu/rbsc/neff/neff_bio.html
RAY NEFF  A BRIEF BIOGRAPHY
Ray Allen Neff, an emeritus faculty member of Indiana State University passed away on Sept. 29, 2011 in Marshall, Illinois. He was born on January 23, 1924 in Prince William County, Virginia.

In his 87 years, Dr. Neff was involved in many activities, including service in the Navy during World War II, where he earned the rank of pharmacist mate third class. He was accomplished as an inventor, holding several patents. His taught courses at Indiana State University in the area of health, physical education, and recreation. A lifelong passion was the study of history. Over the years through accident and design, he became immersed in the Civil War, acquiring several collections pertaining to John Wilkes Booth. He wrote a book on the Neff family in the Civil War and was continuing his research on Booth when Leonard Guttridge and he joined forces to eventually produce Dark Union, a book which is boiled down from a much longer work which was never published but is housed in the Neff-Guttridge Collection.

Dr. Neff began donating his collection to Indiana State University in 2000. He was concerned that the materials he had acquired, such as the Kate Scott Papers, the Potter Papers, the Turner-Baker Papers, and the Lincoln Assassination Suspect Files, be made available to researchers and maintained in perpetuity.

His and Mr. Guttridge's conclusion that the assassin Booth had survived and escaped captivity after murdering President Lincoln is controversial and has been largely dismissed by mainstream historians. Neff and Guttridge allowed that they could never completely prove their beliefs correct from documents alone and hoped that DNA tests of Booth family members and "Booth" remains available in public repositories in Washington and Philadelphia could be used to determine the accuracy of their interpretation of documents and other findings. Dr. Neff frequently made requests over at least two decades to officials, including sitting U. S. presidents, that such tests be conducted, but was unsuccessful.

Others have taken up Neff's cause. It will be interesting to see what transpires.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Tom Scully on August 15, 2019, 04:46:05 AM
This year, the Rolling Stone article published in 1976, featuring then 17 years old Nate Orlowek, is 43 years old news....

Four months ago, this was reported.:

Quote
Did John Wilkes Booth get away with murdering President Abraham ...
https://www.inquirer.com/news/john-wilkes-booth-lincoln-conspiracy-photo-recognition-20190415.html
Apr 15, 2019 - Did John Wilkes Booth get away with murdering President Abraham Lincoln? ... Though not as definitive as DNA results, the facial recognition test used ... and historian Nate Orlowek, who has investigated the assassination ...
..The researchers were hot on the trail of an infamous 19th century assassin, using the latest 21st century technology to track him down.

Before them were photographic images of a man named John St. Helen from 1877, of the embalmed corpse of a David E. George from 1903 — and of John Wilkes Booth taken in 1865, ....

...Facial-recognition software, already loaded with photos of 5,000 other white males, began to meticulously analyze the faces for similarities: the spaces between the eyes, the jaw lines, the shapes of the noses and cheek bones.

In less than a minute, results came back that left the researchers stunned. The data showed a strong possibility that all three photographs were of the same man — a belief long-held by a small number of historians, but always dismissed by scholars and assassination experts as conspiracy nonsense....
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Richard Smith on August 15, 2019, 07:09:23 PM
"Booth's pistol?  LOL."  No one saw Booth pull the trigger or carry the pistol into Ford's theatre per the CTer standard.  He had worked there.  Just going about his business.  Afterward he heard a commotion and decided to go for a horseback ride since he figured the play was over.  Never convicted.  Presumed innocent.  Obviously he was killed to silence him.     
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 15, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
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"Booth's pistol?  LOL."  No one saw Booth pull the trigger or carry the pistol into Ford's theatre per the CTer standard.  He had worked there.  Just going about his business.  Afterward he heard a commotion and decided to go for a horseback ride since he figured the play was over.  Never convicted.  Presumed innocent.  Obviously he was killed to silence him.   

Who said anything about "Booth's pistol"?  You're really losing it, "Richard".

Maybe if anyone saw Oswald do anything at all, this analogy might be the slightest bit relevant.

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Richard Smith on August 15, 2019, 08:26:20 PM
I assume that you accept that Booth assassinated Lincoln?  Apply your standard of proof used in the JFK case to the Lincoln assassination so that we can understand the difference with Oswald.  Link Booth to the weapon for example.  Where are the prints, pictures, documents, serial numbers, and witness testimony that link Booth to this specific pistol?  Where did he obtain it from?  Where did he buy his ammo?  Prove to us that Booth even carried that pistol or any pistol into Ford's Theatre.  What witness, for example, saw him carry it into the theater?  Show us a chain of custody regarding the pistol found or even who found it in "situ" (a word kooks love).  There are various and conflicting reports of who, when, and where it was found.  Prove to us that pistol was even used to kill Lincoln.  The bullet recovered from Lincoln can't be matched to that particular gun.  Show us how Booth loaded it since no such tools necessary to load the Derringer could ever be associated with him.  Don't cop out and tell us anyone saw Booth shoot Lincoln.  That would contradict the standard you apply to the JFK case.  They just heard what they "assumed" to be a shot like a loud "bang" and looked in that direction to see someone that looked like Booth pointing some unknown object at Lincoln.  No one saw him actually pull the trigger (i.e. the pedantic interpretation of seeing someone shoot another person such as in the Tippit murder).  Maybe it was a pipe or something else "made of wood" in his hand.  Like the object Marina and Bob Jackson described believing it to be a rifle but which you dismiss as being something else.  Maybe Booth just pointed it at Lincoln and shouted "bang" and someone else actually fired the shot from another location.  Explain to us why Booth would have carried only a single shot pistol.  It all just sounds like "opinions" and "assumptions" applying your form of logic because it is an impossible standard of proof. 
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 15, 2019, 10:22:41 PM
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I assume that you accept that Booth assassinated Lincoln?  Apply your standard of proof used in the JFK case to the Lincoln assassination so that we can understand the difference with Oswald.  Link Booth to the weapon for example.  Where are the prints, pictures, documents, serial numbers, and witness testimony that link Booth to this specific pistol?  Where did he obtain it from?  Where did he buy his ammo?  Prove to us that Booth even carried that pistol or any pistol into Ford's Theatre.

Why do you have to link a weapon to Booth?  The only reason you try to link a weapon to Oswald is that you have nothing else.

An entire theater box full of people saw him standing there with a derringer immediately after Lincoln was shot and they knew him.  Rathbone fought with him and was stabbed by Booth.  An entire theater full of people who knew who he was saw him leap from the box shouting "Sic Semper Tyrannus".  He had accomplices who ratted him out.  He had a diary in which he said he did it.

The only way this would be the slightest bit analogous is if Lincoln keeled over and nobody saw anybody or anything, but a derringer was found elsewhere in the theater an hour later and a photo turned up of Booth holding a little gun that may or may not have been the same gun.

It doesn't freakin' matter whether anybody can prove if Booth bought the weapon, because that's not evidence that would prove who killed Lincoln.

"I walked with a firm step through a thousand of his friends, was stopped, but pushed on. A colonel was at his side. I shouted Sic semper before I fired. In jumping broke my leg. I passed all his pickets, rode sixty miles that night with the bone of my leg tearing the flesh at every jump. I can never repent it, though we hated to kill. Our country owed all her troubles to him, and God simply made me the instrument of his punishment." -- John Wilkes Booth

"I didn't shoot anybody, no sir. I'm just a patsy". —Lee Harvey Oswald
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Richard Smith on August 15, 2019, 10:54:32 PM
Wow.  The guy who repeatedly questions handwriting analysis as unscientific in the case of "Hidell" cites Booth's handwritten diary as evidence of his guilt!  LOL.  You can't make that up.  And we learn it suddenly doesn't matter whether you can link Booth and by implication Oswald to the murder weapons?  I'm speechless at the profound ignorance of that statement.  And who are these "entire theatre" full of witnesses who saw Booth with a Derringer?  You made that up.  They must have had great eyesight to ID the weapon in his hand in a darkened theatre while their attention was focused on the play and match it to the one found later.  But the witnesses who saw Oswald with a gun at the Tippit scene are discounted.  Did any of these witnesses see Booth shoot Lincoln per the pedantic standard you apply to the JFK and Tippit murder?  So what you confirm is that you believe Booth is guilty even though you can't link him to the alleged murder weapon found at the scene, link that weapon to the murder, or have any witness that saw him carry it into Ford's Theatre.  In addition, no witness saw him "shoot" Lincoln as you interpret that term in the JFK case.  He was just there at his work place like a bunch of other actors.  But he is obviously guilty while there is somehow doubt concerning Oswald.

btw:  Rathbone later murdered his wife and was committed to an insane asylum.  Maybe he assassinated Lincoln that is why Booth fought him.  It's possible and that is all that counts when trying to raise false doubt.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 15, 2019, 11:17:30 PM
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Wow.  The guy who repeatedly questions handwriting analysis as unscientific in the case of "Hidell" cites Booth's handwritten diary as evidence of his guilt!  LOL.  You can't make that up.  And we learn it suddenly doesn't matter whether you can link Booth and by implication Oswald to the murder weapons?  I'm speechless at the profound ignorance of that statement.  And who are these "entire theatre" full of witnesses who saw Booth with a Derringer?  You made that up.  They must have had great eyesight to ID the weapon in his hand in a darkened theatre while their attention was focused on the play and match it to the one found later.  But the witnesses who saw Oswald with a gun at the Tippit scene are discounted.  Did any of these witnesses see Booth shoot Lincoln per the pedantic standard you apply to the JFK and Tippit murder?  So what you confirm is that you believe Booth is guilty even though you can't link him to the alleged murder weapon found at the scene, link that weapon to the murder, or have any witness that saw him carry it into Ford's Theatre.  In addition, no witness saw him "shoot" Lincoln as you interpret that term in the JFK case.  He was just there at his work place like a bunch of other actors.  But he is obviously guilty while there is somehow doubt concerning Oswald.

 Thumb1:

Good one "Richard" Richard...

In tennis, they say play the other guy's game, but better. Seems you've trapped a rat.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Thomas Graves on August 16, 2019, 12:19:14 AM

Shouldn't this thread be in the "Off Topic" section?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Mytton on August 16, 2019, 01:08:36 AM
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Wow.  The guy who repeatedly questions handwriting analysis as unscientific in the case of "Hidell" cites Booth's handwritten diary as evidence of his guilt!  LOL.  You can't make that up.  And we learn it suddenly doesn't matter whether you can link Booth and by implication Oswald to the murder weapons?  I'm speechless at the profound ignorance of that statement.  And who are these "entire theatre" full of witnesses who saw Booth with a Derringer?  You made that up.  They must have had great eyesight to ID the weapon in his hand in a darkened theatre while their attention was focused on the play and match it to the one found later.  But the witnesses who saw Oswald with a gun at the Tippit scene are discounted.  Did any of these witnesses see Booth shoot Lincoln per the pedantic standard you apply to the JFK and Tippit murder?  So what you confirm is that you believe Booth is guilty even though you can't link him to the alleged murder weapon found at the scene, link that weapon to the murder, or have any witness that saw him carry it into Ford's Theatre.  In addition, no witness saw him "shoot" Lincoln as you interpret that term in the JFK case.  He was just there at his work place like a bunch of other actors.  But he is obviously guilty while there is somehow doubt concerning Oswald.

btw:  Rathbone later murdered his wife and was committed to an insane asylum.  Maybe he assassinated Lincoln that is why Booth fought him.  It's possible and that is all that counts when trying to raise false doubt.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l41YdHuqqelb9NJe0/giphy.gif)

Thanks for baiting him and exposing the outrageous double standards. Hilarious!

JohnM
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Steve Howsley on August 16, 2019, 02:16:35 AM
That was as complete a destruction of an Anyone But Oswald fraud as I've seen Richard Smith. Kudos.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 16, 2019, 09:02:35 AM
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That was as complete a destruction of an Anyone But Oswald fraud as I've seen Richard Smith. Kudos.  Thumb1:

Richard has made CTer bubbleheads explode everywhere, and without even yodelling.

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 16, 2019, 06:56:19 PM
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Wow.  The guy who repeatedly questions handwriting analysis as unscientific in the case of "Hidell" cites Booth's handwritten diary as evidence of his guilt!  LOL.  You can't make that up.

Again with the false equivalacies, but not at all surprising coming from Strawman "Richard".

Booth's diary was found on his person, not identified as his handwriting via 2 block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.

Quote
  And we learn it suddenly doesn't matter whether you can link Booth and by implication Oswald to the murder weapons?

Because you don't have any actual evidence that Oswald shot anybody, so you have to resort to gymnastics over the purchase of the weapon.

Quote
  I'm speechless at the profound ignorance of that statement.  And who are these "entire theatre" full of witnesses who saw Booth with a Derringer?  You made that up.

I'm speechless at your inability to read.  I said that the theatre full of people saw him leap from the balcony.

Quote
  They must have had great eyesight to ID the weapon in his hand in a darkened theatre while their attention was focused on the play and match it to the one found later.  But the witnesses who saw Oswald with a gun at the Tippit scene are discounted.

False equivalence.  Booth was a famous actor who theater patrons knew well.  Oswald was identified in unfair rigged lineups by people who didn't know him and described him differently.

Quote
  Did any of these witnesses see Booth shoot Lincoln per the pedantic standard you apply to the JFK and Tippit murder?

Booth was seen in the theater box with a gun in his hand immediately after Lincoln was shot.  Oswald was seen in a different location a couple minutes after JFK was shot with no gun in his hand.  See how that works?

Quote
    In addition, no witness saw him "shoot" Lincoln as you interpret that term in the JFK case.  He was just there at his work place like a bunch of other actors.  But he is obviously guilty while there is somehow doubt concerning Oswald.

Nobody saw Oswald do anything.  It's not surprising that you don't see the difference, because to you speculation is considered evidence.

Quote
btw:  Rathbone later murdered his wife and was committed to an insane asylum.  Maybe he assassinated Lincoln that is why Booth fought him.  It's possible and that is all that counts when trying to raise false doubt.

Cool.  Any evidence of this mental instability in 1865?  Clara Harris and Mary Todd were in the presidential box too.

Witnesses who saw Oswald shoot JFK:  ZERO

The only reason you have to pretend you know that it was "Oswald's rifle" is because you don't have anything else.  In Booth's case they had eyewitnesses. They had accomplices.  They had a diary.  They didn't have to resort to nonsense like "he left his ring in a cup" as "evidence".

Booth:  Sic Semper Tyrannis
Oswald: I really don't know what the situation is about. Nobody has told me anything.

But if you want to make a case for reasonable doubt in Lincoln's murder, then knock yourself out.  It does nothing to advance your case against Oswald.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 16, 2019, 07:46:19 PM
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Again with the false equivalacies, but not at all surprising coming from Strawman "Richard".

Oswald was seen at the Tippit scene immediately after the shooting with a gun in his hand.
Call that a 'false equivalency', Professor Wiki.

Booth's diary was found on his person, not identified as his handwriting via 2 block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.

Because you don't have any actual evidence that Oswald shot anybody, so you have to resort to gymnastics over the purchase of the weapon.

I'm speechless at your inability to read.  I said that the theatre full of people saw him leap from the balcony.

False equivalence.  Booth was a famous actor who theater patrons knew well.  Oswald was identified in unfair rigged lineups by people who didn't know him and described him differently.

Booth was seen in the theater box with a gun in his hand immediately after Lincoln was shot.  Oswald was seen in a different location a couple minutes after JFK was shot with no gun in his hand.  See how that works?

Nobody saw Oswald do anything.  It's not surprising that you don't see the difference, because to you speculation is considered evidence.

Cool.  Any evidence of this mental instability in 1865?  Clara Harris and Mary Todd were in the presidential box too.

Witnesses who saw Oswald shoot JFK:  ZERO

The only reason you have to pretend you know that it was "Oswald's rifle" is because you don't have anything else.  In Booth's case they had eyewitnesses. They had conspirators.  They had a diary.  They didn't have to resort to nonsense like "he left his ring in a cup" as "evidence".

How does leaping from the balcony prove to the audience that Booth shot anybody. Did Clara or Mary see Booth actually shoot Lincoln? Or were they pressured to say they actually saw the physical act of Booth pointing the gun at him?

Did anybody see Booth actually pull the trigger? That seems to be a standard of proof you require.. even when a certain Mystery Guest #2 (AKA Dirty Harvey*) is seen at the Tippit scene during the murder of Tippit, not only with a gun in his hand but actually emptying it.

Witnesses who saw AnybodyButOswald shoot Kennedy: ZERO
Persons other than the shooter who knew an attempt on Kennedy was going to be made that day: ZERO

Leaving a wedding ring in a cup is evidence that he left his wedding ring in a cup. Taken at face value, in a vacuum, BFD. You don't live in a vacuum, do you John.

@Lurkers:
*Smith, Wesson... and Lee.

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 16, 2019, 07:48:50 PM
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Shouldn't this thread be in the "Off Topic" section?
YUP
 
 
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 16, 2019, 08:23:55 PM
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How does leaping from the balcony prove to the audience that Booth shot anybody. Did Clara or Mary see Booth actually shoot Lincoln? Or were they pressured to say they actually saw the physical act of Booth pointing the gun at him?

Did anybody see Booth actually pull the trigger? That seems to be a standard of proof you require..

No that's Strawman "Smith's" strawman.  The problem isn't that nobody was seen pulling the trigger.  The problem is that there is no evidence of any kind that Oswald was there with a weapon.

Quote
even when a certain Mystery Guest #2 (AKA Dirty Harvey*) is seen at the Tippit scene immediately after the murder of Tippit not only with a gun in his hand but actually emptying it.

We're comparing evidence of Lincoln's assassination vs. JFK's assassination.  Even if the evidence for the Tippit murder was (slightly) better, it tells you nothing about who shot JFK.  They were still unfair lineups.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 16, 2019, 08:52:22 PM
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No that's Strawman "Smith's" strawman.  The problem isn't that nobody was seen pulling the trigger.  The problem is that there is no evidence of any kind that Oswald was there with a weapon.

We're comparing evidence of Lincoln's assassination vs. JFK's assassination.  Even if the evidence for the Tippit murder was (slightly) better, it tells you nothing about who shot JFK.  They were still unfair lineups.

Note that I've added to my original post before reading this

In the meantime, Oswald was the only person on the face of the planet at the scenes of both crimes. I find that compelling.

Oh, btw... Did Oswald demand a jacket to wear at any of the lineups? ;)


Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 16, 2019, 09:10:10 PM
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Note that I've added to my original post before reading this

In the meantime, Oswald was the only person on the face of the planet as being seen at the scenes of both crimes

Define "being seen".  Actually Captain Westbrook was not only at both scenes, but he was at the scene when the jacket was found and at the theater for the arrest.  Not bad for a personnel officer.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 16, 2019, 09:14:07 PM
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Witnesses who saw AnybodyButOswald shoot Kennedy: ZERO

Is that supposed to prove that Oswald did it?

Witnesses who saw AnybodyButBillChapman shoot Kennedy: ZERO

Quote
Persons other than the shooter who knew an attempt on Kennedy was going to be made that day: ZERO

How could you possibly know that for a fact?

Quote
Leaving a wedding ring in a cup is evidence that he left his wedding ring in a cup. Taken at face value, in a vacuum, BFD. You don't live in a vacuum, do you John.

Taken in conjunction with other evidence:  also BFD.  It means he left his ring in a cup and you're left to speculate in hindsight on the reasons.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 16, 2019, 09:25:11 PM
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Define "being seen".  Actually Captain Westbrook was not only at both scenes, but he was at the scene when the jacket was found and at the theater for the arrest.  Not bad for a personnel officer.

 ::)

Not that you're riding the semantics seesaw
>>> On the scene during the shootings.

Westbrook was there during the Tippit shooting?
News to me.

Oh, btw... Did Oswald demand a jacket to wear at any of the lineups? ;)
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Mytton on August 16, 2019, 09:41:41 PM
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Again with the false equivalacies, but not at all surprising coming from Strawman "Richard".

Booth's diary was found on his person, not identified as his handwriting via 2 block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.

Because you don't have any actual evidence that Oswald shot anybody, so you have to resort to gymnastics over the purchase of the weapon.

I'm speechless at your inability to read.  I said that the theatre full of people saw him leap from the balcony.

False equivalence.  Booth was a famous actor who theater patrons knew well.  Oswald was identified in unfair rigged lineups by people who didn't know him and described him differently.

Booth was seen in the theater box with a gun in his hand immediately after Lincoln was shot.  Oswald was seen in a different location a couple minutes after JFK was shot with no gun in his hand.  See how that works?

Nobody saw Oswald do anything.  It's not surprising that you don't see the difference, because to you speculation is considered evidence.

Cool.  Any evidence of this mental instability in 1865?  Clara Harris and Mary Todd were in the presidential box too.

Witnesses who saw Oswald shoot JFK:  ZERO

The only reason you have to pretend you know that it was "Oswald's rifle" is because you don't have anything else.  In Booth's case they had eyewitnesses. They had accomplices.  They had a diary.  They didn't have to resort to nonsense like "he left his ring in a cup" as "evidence".

Booth:  Sic Semper Tyrannis
Oswald: I really don't know what the situation is about. Nobody has told me anything.

But if you want to make a case for reasonable doubt in Lincoln's murder, then knock yourself out.  It does nothing to advance your case against Oswald.

Quote
Booth's diary was found on his person

Oswald's wallet containing Hidell ID was found on Oswald's person.

Quote
Because you don't have any actual evidence that Oswald shot anybody,

And unless you have evidence that someone saw some guy actually pull the trigger then you got nothing.

Quote
so you have to resort to gymnastics over the purchase of the weapon.

How is following a paper/evidence trail that leads from Kleins records straight to the 6th floor of Oswald's building "gymnastics"?

Quote
I said that the theatre full of people saw him leap from the balcony.

Saw "who" jump from the balcony, was this person ever positively identified in an "unfair lineup"? -giggle-

Quote
Oswald was identified in unfair rigged lineups

An unfair rigged lineup contains only 1 person who is holding the weapon, Oswald's lineup's were nothing like that.

Quote
Booth was seen in the theater box with a gun in his hand immediately after Lincoln was shot.

In a darkened theater, what could they possibly see?

Quote
Oswald was seen in a different location a couple minutes after JFK was shot with no gun in his hand.  See how that works?

Oops, Brennan saw Oswald in the sniper's nest, you know the sniper's nest with Oswald fresh prints on the recently moved rifle rest box.

Quote
Nobody saw Oswald do anything.

See above and don't forget when Oswald was approached by Police Officers he struck McDonald and then tried to kill McDonald with his revolver.

Quote
Witnesses who saw Oswald shoot JFK:  ZERO

No, see above.

Quote
In Booth's case they had eyewitnesses.

Eyewitnesses who didn't see some guy actually pull the trigger? LOL!

Quote
They had a diary.

What, so the handwriting analysis is based on an "unscientific" opinion, you gotta do better than that.

Quote
Booth:  Sic Semper Tyrannis

Oswald: Well, it's all over now

Quote
But if you want to make a case for reasonable doubt in Lincoln's murder, then knock yourself out.  It does nothing to advance your case against Oswald.

No, it's just fun exposing a lazy contrarian who applies Polar different conclusions to essentially the same type of evidence.

JohnM

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Michael Walton on August 16, 2019, 10:10:00 PM
So let me get this straight. Many of the people on this board who just can't see any conspiracy having taken place in the JFK assassination are now also saying that there WAS a conspiracy in the Lincoln assassination?

And I thought there already WAS a conspiracy with Mary Stuart(?) and others and they were hanged?

Hahahahaha! There are many, many people out there with some truly weird ways of thinking! OMG! No wonder this country is going down the tubes!
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 16, 2019, 10:20:13 PM
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Define "being seen".  Actually Captain Westbrook was not only at both scenes, but he was at the scene when the jacket was found and at the theater for the arrest.  Not bad for a personnel officer.

Westbrook was at City Hall during the assassination.
Westbrook arrived at the Tippit scene after the fact.

You wouldn't be trying to spin the Texas Theater/Tippit scenes as being the 'both scenes' I'm talking about (see above) now would you John?

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Mytton on August 16, 2019, 10:28:01 PM
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So let me get this straight. Many of the people on this board who just can't see any conspiracy having taken place in the JFK assassination are now also saying that there WAS a conspiracy in the Lincoln assassination?

And I thought there already WAS a conspiracy with Mary Stuart(?) and others and they were hanged?

Hahahahaha! There are many, many people out there with some truly weird ways of thinking! OMG! No wonder this country is going down the tubes!

Seriously? You're missing the point entirely, it's not about who killed who, it's about double standards and the CT's contradictory application of evidence. And btw this is just a surface level analysis, we still haven't started attacking eyewitnesses yet. Muhahaha!

JohnM
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Michael Walton on August 17, 2019, 04:57:35 PM
John M:

"Seriously..."

-----------


I'm going to agree with you here but it really does go both ways with this case, John. There are some outrageous claims with CTers out there. To name a few:

The body being squirreled away from Parkland, dropped down into the cargo hold, whisked away on a thrumming helicopter at Andrews, and all manner of body manipulations by mad doctors with scalpels at the ready. All - for what...?

When the Z film shows that a single shooter supposedly pulls off a super human feat of marksmanship - one that has never been duplicated during controlled conditions - and yet we have crazies saying that the Z film needed FURTHER doctoring to cover up - what...?

When it's decided by secret agents with rain coats on and collars pulled up, decide to pluck a Hungarian kid from the streets post WWII - and his mother to boot - bring them back and train them to be secret agents and lookalikes of Lee Oswald, a mere nobody, and continue this charade for 16 years until 11/22. All - for what...?

I could go on, but you should get the gist of it.

On the other side of the coin, though, John, there are way too many inconsistencies with the official version, that same version you support unquestioned. To boot:

We're expected to believe Oswald was a raving leftist like McVeigh was a right-wing crazy who actually had a Sic Tyrants shirt on when he was arrested? Yet, Oswald denied doing any of the shootings he was accused of. We'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt but he never got his day in court with a good team of lawyers behind him.

And, oh yeah, for someone who supposedly did this to get back at America in some crazy way - why in the world was he still wearing his USMC ring? Oops. As a leftist, and with all things that ring represents, you'd think he would have thrown that away years ago.

We're expected to believe that three clean shots fired from the so-called sniper lair hit, then missed, then hit again, yet a trained Secret Service agent described a "flurry of shells" coming into the car?

We're expected to believe that the so-called missed shot hit way, way down the street? I mean WAY DOWN there all the way to where the underpass is, kicking up chips and hitting Tague?

We're expected to believe that all of these clean shots somehow nicked the windshield causing damage to it?

We're expected to believe that Oswald waltzed over and wiped down his rifle, stuffed it pretty well between boxes to hide it, then skipped down to the 2nd floor to be found calmly sipping a Coca Cola a minute and a half after the shooting? And yet, this raving madman forgot to pick up the shells but took the time to wipe the weapon down and try to hide it? If he was making a statement, why not just throw the weapon down in the lair, leaving his prints on it and the shells there too?

We're expected to believe that after murdering a policeman, Oswald throws his wallet down at the scene, ejects his shells as he walks away from the scene, takes off his jacket as he leaves? And yet, when arrested they pull out a second wallet from his pocket. So what was this...some extraordinary sleigh of hand?

I could go on, but you get the gist of it.

I think the biggest thing about this case is the incredible bias of folks who simply don't like Kennedy, the Kennedy family in general, or whatever warped thinking they have that will always block rational thought. I get that - folks think he was a playboy; the family is too rich; the father was crooked; and so on. And yeah, I'm going to put it out here now - Kennedy seemed like a good guy, but he did escalate the number of soldiers in Viet Nam and he and his brother both signed off on surveilling Martin Luther King, all the while inviting him to the WH after his speech on 8/28/63. So yeah, despite what those who worship Kennedy say, he does leave much to be desired.

But just because you don't like someone or hate their family, it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a fair and rational investigation into his murder. Further, when you're biased, that biased thought is going to keep anyone from giving the narrative of the murder any rational thought.

If you take all of that bias away, there are way too many coincidences and oddities for it to be mere happenstance, John. Life in general just doesn't happen that way.

'Night John Boy. 'Night Mary Ellen.

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 17, 2019, 06:59:27 PM
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::)

Not that you're riding the semantics seesaw
>>> On the scene during the shootings.

And by "on the scene", you mean somewhere in the TSBD building?  That's useful.

Quote
Oh, btw... Did Oswald demand a jacket to wear at any of the lineups? ;)

Relevance?
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 17, 2019, 07:14:52 PM
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Oswald's wallet containing Hidell ID was found on Oswald's person.

Unfortunately this ID (that nobody mentioned in any report or interview before Oswald was dead) is not a confession to killing anyone.

Quote
And unless you have evidence that someone saw some guy actually pull the trigger then you got nothing.

Are you trying to claim that there is just as much evidence against Oswald as against Booth?

Quote
How is following a paper/evidence trail that leads from Kleins records straight to the 6th floor of Oswald's building "gymnastics"?

Because there is no "paper/evidence trail that leads from Kleins records straight to the 6th floor".

Quote
Saw "who" jump from the balcony, was this person ever positively identified in an "unfair lineup"? -giggle-

No.  Those were the purview of the Dallas PD.

Quote
An unfair rigged lineup contains only 1 person who is holding the weapon, Oswald's lineup's were nothing like that.

They might as well have been one person holding a weapon.

- The fillers were not chosen to resemble the witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- There were only 3 fillers for the lineups and no fillers for the photo identifications
- The fillers were not dressed like Oswald
- The fillers were not dressed to match witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- The person administering the lineup knew which person in the lineup was the suspect
- The witnesses did not view the lineups separately
- Some witnesses knew which man was the suspect before they attended the lineup
- Not all of the men were handcuffed together for the first lineup
- Witnesses were influenced by the physical appearances of both Oswald and the fillers
- Witnesses were influenced by Oswald's complaints about the fairness of the lineups
- Witnesses were intimidated or pressured by the authorities
- Witnesses were asked to sign affidavits which would include who they picked in the lineup before actually viewing the lineup
- The criminal justice system in Dallas County had a history of railroading suspects

Quote
In a darkened theater, what could they possibly see?

Evidence that Ford's theater was darkened?  I guess you didn't know about the witness who saw Booth enter the presidential box either.

Quote
Oops, Brennan saw Oswald in the sniper's nest, you know the sniper's nest with Oswald fresh prints on the recently moved rifle rest box.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/failedtoidentify.jpg)

Quote
See above and don't forget when Oswald was approached by Police Officers he struck McDonald and then tried to kill McDonald with his revolver.

Evidence that Oswald "tried to kill McDonald with his revolver"?  And what does that have to do with who killed the president?

Quote
What, so the handwriting analysis is based on an "unscientific" opinion, you gotta do better than that.

What handwriting analysis?  Why are you so desperately trying to equate two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy from microfilm found 1000 miles away with a diary containing a confession found on somebody's person?  And then there were his accomplices...

Quote
Oswald: Well, it's all over now

Yes, McDonald had a habit of embellishing things that nobody else could attest to.

Quote
No, it's just fun exposing a lazy contrarian who applies Polar different conclusions to essentially the same type of evidence.

"Essentially the same type of evidence" is blatantly dishonest and self-serving.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 17, 2019, 07:17:00 PM
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Seriously? You're missing the point entirely, it's not about who killed who, it's about double standards and the CT's contradictory application of evidence. And btw this is just a surface level analysis, we still haven't started attacking eyewitnesses yet. Muhahaha!

Go for it.  I don't know the Booth case well enough to argue the evidence, but if you think you can then be my guest.  All I ask is that you don't misrepresent the evidence like you and "Richard" do with Oswald.
Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Tom Scully on August 18, 2019, 03:11:03 AM
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.....

btw:  Rathbone later murdered his wife and was committed to an insane asylum.  Maybe he assassinated Lincoln that is why Booth fought him.  It's possible and that is all that counts when trying to raise false doubt.
.....
Thanks for baiting him and exposing the outrageous double standards. Hilarious!

JohnM
Double standards, or no actual standards? Virginia Davis misrepresented her age to DPD and in her Warren Commission sworn testimony but her credibility is NOT to be questioned, despite unique details she "recounted".

William Whaley created the legend of the LN fleeing the scene of the crime with curious lack of urgency, (ice water in Oswald's veins, cold blooded, reptilian killer, scrambled egg for a brain, per "reporter" Breslin, echoed by Nellie Connally) offering Whaley's
cab to a woman who seemed to Whaley to communicate a greater air of urgency than the LN assassin. Remarkably consistent records into the mid 1940s, including the date of his parents' 1907 marriage, Whaley's 1908 birth year, 1910, '20, '30, and '40 US census records, Whaley's son's birth certificate, and Whaley's 1942 military draft record all indicate he was born in 1908.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley/photo
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2009/31/13730776_123351449973.jpg)

News reporters, including the highly regarded (by LNs...) Hugh Aynesworth, reported that Whaley served as a "Navy gunner" in the 1945 invasion of Iwo Jima, earning a Navy Cross for his combat related actions. No proof of this high award for his combat service has ever emerged and LNs are remarkably incurious. Whaley's son (and namesake) born in 1931, went to live with Whaley's wife's sister after her 1934, TB related death. Whaley Jr. considered his aunt and her husband to be his parents.

The lack of interest in any of these issues which would predictably influence any reasonable person (the sort sought via voir dire jury pool questioning by both defense and prosecuting attorneys) to discount the general credibility of both Ms. Davis and Mr. Whaley, since their deceptions were ongoing as they testified, are judged less troubling, or of no concern whatsoever, compared to the disqualification of 1865 Lincoln Assassination witness, Maj. Rathbone, because he murdered his wife 18 years after his Lincoln testimony?

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Rathbone#Final_years_and_death

...On December 23, 1883, Rathbone attacked his children in a fit of madness. Rathbone fatally shot and stabbed his wife, who was attempting to protect the children....

If Booth lived long enough to be tried...."Maj. Rathbone, have you ever contemplated murdering your fiance?"
VS
"Ms. Davis, (or Mr. Whaley), why do defense investigators inform our Oswald defense team of d.o.b. dates of your background records different from the age you have represnted yourself to be to inquiring officials or to the press?"

Isn't the core deficiency, (for the inquiring, open minded) the deprivation of a criminal trial, owing to lax DPD security, indifference by Sheriff Bill Decker and
Ruby's murderous act, resulted in no defense attorney raising some of the issues (and similarly, about other prosecution witnesses) to a trial jury, which I present in this post?

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Hugh Aynesworth reporting on 28 November, 1963 about Whaley and his Navy Cross combat award.:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/WhaleyAynesworth26Nov63.jpg)
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There is no available record, so far, of Whaley's professed award of the Navy Cross.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/WhaleyNavyCrossList.jpg)

Whaley was born in June, 1908 as recently as in the information displayed on his son William W Whaley, Jr's 1931 birth certificate, but since then he was born in 1905 although his parents married in 1907 according to Hopkins County, TX records and the same familoy bible that describes Whaley's birth as in 1908.
UPDATED: Whaley's 1942 Selective Service document indicates he may have written his birth date as June 19, 1908,
three years later than the date on his death certificate and gravestone.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/WhaleyDOB1940DraftCard.jpg)
His son and namesake William's 1997 obit lists William Jr's aunt Alice Patterson as his mother and mentions no father.
Whaley Sr's obit does not mention his namesake son, William, Jr.

UPDATE:
Quote
Quote
Albuquerque Journal from Albuquerque, New Mexico on October 30 ...
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157414971/

Oct 30, 1984 - SEALES Mr. Alvin S. Seales, age 73 and a resident here 21 years, died Monday in a local hospital following an illness. He is survived by his wife, Alice; a son William W. Whaley and wife Dorothy; granddaughter Jamy Whaley; grandson, William W. Whaley Jr. and wife Nancy, all of Albuquerque; a brother ..

Quote
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/157070315/
June 24, 1997........
WHALEY William Wayne Whaley, 65, passed away unexpectedly on June 18, 1997 in Michigan while on vacation. Husband of 43 years to Dorothy; father and father-in-law of Jamy and Gregg Peevy and Bill Jr. and Dee Whaley, all of Albuquerque; son of Alice (Pat) Scales of Albuquerque. Mr. Whaley retired from Us Alamos National Ubs in 1993 after 17 years. A memorial service will be held Wednesday, 3:00 p.m. at French Mortuary, Umas Blvd. Chapel, 10500 Umas NE. Cremation has taken place. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to Noonday Ministry, P.O. Box 8769, Albuquerque, NM 87198 or New Mexico Boys and Girls Ranch, 6209 Hendrix NE, Albuquerque, NM 87110. French Mortuary, 10500 Umas NE. Church with Rev. Archie Parker officiating. Interment to follow at Santa Fe National Cemetery with Wilson Cox Jr., David Cox, David O'Dell Jr., Timoth O'Dell, Patrick O'Dell and Jon Palmer serving as pallbearers......

Quote
ABQJournal Online - Albuquerque Journal Obituaries
obits.abqjournal.com/obits/show/124434 (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&ei=zfKHWsDqFOTMjwTE4LKIBA&q=ALVIN+S+SEALES+WILLIAM+WHALEY&oq=ALVIN+S+SEALES+WILLIAM+WHALEY&gs_l=psy-ab.12...14605.14926.0.20638.2.2.0.0.0.0.123.236.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.a4iRnsG_0xY)
Jan 30, 1999 - Seales -- Alice (Pat) Seales, passed away Wednesday morning, January 27, 1999, at Sunrise Mission Manor Care and Rehabilitation. She was 91 years old. She was preceded in death by her husband, Alvin S. Seales; and her son, William Whaley. She is survived by her daughter-in-law, Dorothy Whaley; ...
(http://jfkforum.com/images/WhaleySonSS1997.jpg)
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Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 18, 2019, 05:04:15 AM
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William Whaley created the legend of the LN fleeing the scene of the crime with curious lack of urgency, (ice water in Oswald's veins, cold blooded, reptilian killer, scrambled egg for a brain, per "reporter" Breslin, echoed by Nellie Connally) offering Whaley's cab to a woman who seemed to Whaley to communicate a greater air of urgency than the LN assassin.

Seems Oswald presented himself in a normal, minimally-noticed way at that point... fewer 'eyes on' and all that. Like chicken soup, it 'can't hurt' to look unhurried if indeed he had plugged the prez.
 
Too bad for you Oswald grave-site visitors that Dirty Harvey's 'Joe Cool' performance shot out the window (so-to-speak) in front of a certain shoe-store salesman.

Title: Re: Lincoln Assassination Status: a Still Open or Reopenable FBI Investigation?
Post by: John Mytton on August 18, 2019, 06:21:31 AM
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William Whaley created the legend of the LN fleeing the scene of the crime with curious lack of urgency, (ice water in Oswald's veins, cold blooded, reptilian killer, scrambled egg for a brain, per "reporter" Breslin, echoed by Nellie Connally) offering Whaley's
cab to a woman who seemed to Whaley to communicate a greater air of urgency than the LN assassin.


Whaley wrote the following affidavit the day after and he says that he told the lady there will be a cab behind him very soon and he wasn't sure if Oswald said anything at all.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYV4sgZx/whaley-handwritten-affidavit.gif)

Anyway I don't know why you people doubt Whaley and the Bus and Cab narrative because Oswald himself admitted that he caught a bus and cab.

Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you to tell me what he said about the transfer.
Mr. FRITZ. He told he that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab.
So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.I asked him how much the cab fare was, he said 85 cents.


Mr. STERN - Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that ground before," or make any such statement?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.


The not so pristine bus transfer.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCpGcWgc/front-and-back-bus-transfer.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/fd/f0/22fdf0b4e7a3d42c0aa377bff8bccc59.jpg)

JohnM