JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on January 11, 2019, 07:51:07 PM
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Why did false defector Yuri Nosenko say in January, 1964, that the KGB hadn't even interviewed Oswald during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR?
(Fwiw, my hero Tennent H. Bagley didn't believe Oswald killed JFK at the direction of the KGB, but did think that, based on Nosenko's denials, one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)
Another possibility is that Nosenko told J. Edgar "Egg On Face" Hoover exactly what he wanted to hear about Oswald so that Hoover would automatically believe what he said about other subject matters, e.g., "Neither the CIA nor the FBI have any KGB moles."
(LOL)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Here's a good, accurate article from August, 2017, from ... gasp ... that evil, evil, evil "Deep State Disinfo Agent" The Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/foul-traitor-new-jfk-assassination-records-reveal-kgb-defectors-three-year-interrogation/?utm_term=.69d198e040a4
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Nosenko's claims about the treatment of Oswald were supported by the documents released by Yeltsin and by interviews by Mailer et al. (he had help) with the KGB agents who were assigned to monitor Oswald. After his suicide attempt the KGB considered him unstable and not worthy of use. In fact they were relieved when he decided to return to the US. The evidence is he was never formally interrogated by KGB officials.
Second: Nosenko was determined to be a authentic KGB defector. The head of foreign counter intelligence operations for the USSR in the 1970s was/is Oleg Kalugin. Kalugin defected to the US in the 1980s. He say Nosenko was genuine and that when he defected it caused major problems for the KGB. Agents and assets had to be reassigned, et cetera. Kalugin also says Putin is a fascist war criminal who should be prosecuted for high crimes. He's no lackey for Moscow.
There is no evidence that you have cited that the guard at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico was a "triple agent." Nowhere do I see in Angleton's testimony in the Church Committee does he mention this. You've been asked to cite this. Please do so. I don't see it mentioned anywhere.
The person who visited the Soviet Embassy and met Kostikov was indeed Lee Oswald. Oswald wanted a visa; he wanted to go to Cuba. He hated the Soviet Union.
Now, you can reject all of this as being KGB/Russian/Soviet disinformation. That's your prerogative but in doing so leave me with nothing to say. Because whatever I cite will be dismissed by you as being lies.
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Dear Steve,
You haven't read Bagley's Spy Wars or his 35-page pdf Ghosts of the Spy Wars, or even watched John Newman's two-part youtube Spy Wars presentation from last March, have you?
Pity that.
If you'd read Bagley's book, you'd realize that not only was Nosenko a false defector (as now acknowledged by none other than John Newman and Peter Dale Scott), but that KGB was much more highly compartmentalized than our CIA, and that in very impostant cases it sometimes misled most of its own officers so that they would unwittingly spread disinformation, themselves (Kalugin and Gordievsky come to mind as regards the subject at hand), so "in my book," it's either that, or Kalugin and Gordievsky are still working for the "KGB" (telling the U.S. 98% truth, and 2% very important lies).
Here's Bagley's pdf:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
(I highly suggest that you read the six pages that constitute The McCoy Intervention part of it.)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Instead of my giving you potentially confusing instructions on how to go about finding the pertinent Angleton quotes in his 1) June 19, 1975, and 2) in his February 9, 1976 CHURCH COMMITTEE TESTIMONY, why don't you just go to chapters 5 and 6 of Bill Simpich's State Secret and then press "F" and "Ctrl" simultaneously (for each of those two chapters, obviously), and type in the search term byetkov ?
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret.html
PPS This is a FB message I sent to Bill Simpich on 9/14/18, followed by his reply:
Hi Bill.
I'm dropping this note to you to let you know that I've recently realized that the triple-agent "Byetkov*?" JJA referred to in his June 19, 1975, Church Committee testimony must have Ivan Obyedkov (pronounced ah-bee-ED-cough), the Soviet embassy security guard who volunteered Kostikov's name to "Oswald" on 10/01/63. It's easy for me to see how the stenographer could misspell Obyedkov's name like that. Also, it's interesting that Oybedkov's 201 file has so many redactions in it.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=157254&search=201-779495#relPageId=1&tab=page
Thanks,
-- Tom
..............
Here's Simpich's unedited 9/14/18 reply:
That is a great find. I spent a lot of time puzzling over that one. I tried to solve it the wrong way, assuming it started with a B. I do believe you have solved it.
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Okay, Duncan. "Message" received loud and clear, but what about James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio? Is it OK for me to refer to him that way? And how about Jefferson "Intellectually-Dishonest" Morley? Is that cool?))
There's no rule which refers to non members of this Forum. ;)
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Just briefly off topic...What happened to the Oswald in Mexico City thread?
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Just briefly off topic...What happened to the Oswald in Mexico City thread?
The member who created the thread requested that his membership be terminated, and that the complete record of his content contributions here be deleted, including posted quotes and partial quotes of his contributed content by other members.
Unfortunately, in order to fulfill his request, contributing posts by other member's had be deleted.
The rules regarding membership termination have since been amended.
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Steve M. Galbraith,
You wrote:
Nosenko's claims about the treatment of Oswald were supported by the documents released by Yeltsin and by interviews by Mailer et al. (he had help) with the KGB agents who were assigned to monitor Oswald. After his suicide attempt the KGB considered him unstable and not worthy of use. In fact they were relieved when he decided to return to the US. The evidence is he was never formally interrogated by KGB officials.
Second: Nosenko was determined to be a authentic KGB defector. The head of foreign counter intelligence operations for the USSR in the 1970s was/is Oleg Kalugin. Kalugin defected to the US in the 1980s. He say Nosenko was genuine and that when he defected it caused major problems for the KGB. Agents and assets had to be reassigned, et cetera. Kalugin also says Putin is a fascist war criminal who should be prosecuted for high crimes. He's no lackey for Moscow.
There is no evidence that you have cited that the guard at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico was a "triple agent." Nowhere do I see in Angleton's testimony in the Church Committee does he mention this. You've been asked to cite this. Please do so. I don't see it mentioned anywhere.
The person who visited the Soviet Embassy and met Kostikov was indeed Lee Oswald. Oswald wanted a visa; he wanted to go to Cuba. He hated the Soviet Union.
Now, you can reject all of this as being KGB/Russian/Soviet disinformation. That's your prerogative but in doing so leave me with nothing to say. Because whatever I cite will be dismissed by you as being lies.
.......
(My reply)
Dear Steve,
You haven't read Bagley's Spy Wars or his 35-page pdf Ghosts of the Spy Wars, or even watched John Newman's two-part youtube Spy Wars presentation from last March, have you?
Pity that.
If you'd read Bagley's book, you'd realize that not only was Nosenko a false defector (as now acknowledged by none other than John Newman and Peter Dale Scott), but that KGB was much more highly compartmentalized than our CIA, and that in very impostant cases it sometimes misled most of its own officers so that they would unwittingly spread disinformation, themselves (Kalugin and Gordievsky come to mind as regards the subject at hand), so "in my book," it's either that, or Kalugin and Gordievsky are still working for the "KGB" (telling the U.S. 98% truth, and 2% very important lies).
Here's Bagley's pdf:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
(I highly suggest that you read the six pages that constitute The McCoy Intervention part of it.)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Instead of my giving you potentially confusing instructions on how to go about finding the pertinent Angleton quotes in his 1) June 19, 1975, and 2) in his February 9, 1976 CHURCH COMMITTEE TESTIMONY, why don't you just go to chapters 5 and 6 of Bill Simpich's State Secret and then press "F" and "Ctrl" simultaneously (for each of those two chapters, obviously), and type in the search term byetkov
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret.html
PPS This is a FB message I sent to Bill Simpich on 9/14/18, followed by his reply:
Hi Bill.
I'm dropping this note to you to let you know that I've recently realized that the triple-agent "Byetkov*?" JJA referred to in his June 19, 1975, Church Committee testimony must have Ivan Obyedkov (pronounced ah-bee-ED-cough), the Soviet embassy security guard who volunteered Kostikov's name to "Oswald" on 10/01/63. It's easy for me to see how the stenographer could misspell Obyedkov's name like that. Also, it's interesting that Oybedkov's 201 file has so many redactions in it.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=157254&search=201-779495#relPageId=1&tab=page
Thanks,
-- Tom
..............
Here's Simpich's unedited 9/14/18 reply:
That is a great find. I spent a lot of time puzzling over that one. I tried to solve it the wrong way, assuming it started with a B. I do believe you have solved it.
Being particularly fond of this post, I'm bumping it so that Steve [M.] Galbraith might read it and actually reply to it.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Where, oh, where did Steve M. Galbraith go?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :'(
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Why did false defector Yuri Nosenko say in January, 1964, that the KGB hadn't even interviewed Oswald during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR?
(Fwiw, my hero Tennent H. Bagley didn't believe Oswald killed JFK at the direction of the KGB, but did think that, based on Nosenko's denials, one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)
Another possibility is that Nosenko told J. Edgar "Egg On Face" Hoover exactly what he wanted to hear about Oswald so that Hoover would automatically believe what he said about other subject matters, e.g., "Neither the CIA nor the FBI have any KGB moles."
(LOL)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)
I don't know how Nosenko defecting to the US could have kept the FBI or anybody from learning that Lee Oswald had been recruited by the KGB while he was serving on a top secret U-2 base in Japan. How does that work?
There's no doubt in my mind that Lee was recruited by the KGB while he was serving as a Marine in Japan....and there's also no doubt in mind that he had the blessing of ONI and the State Department, who helped him learn to understand and speak Russian. ( he wouldn't have been much use to the US if he couldn't Speak and understand Russian. )
The animosity between Hoover and other intelligence agencies kept him in the dark about Lee Oswald...He thought that Lee was a turn coat traitor and a commie....
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one of the reasons KGB sent Nosenko to the U.S. was to prevent CIA/FBI from discovering some relationship Oswald had had with KGB before he defected to the USSR.)
I don't know how Nosenko defecting to the US could have kept the FBI or anybody from learning that Lee Oswald had been recruited by the KGB while he was serving on a top secret U-2 base in Japan. How does that work?
There's no doubt in my mind that Lee was recruited by the KGB while he was serving as a Marine in Japan....and there's also no doubt in mind that he had the blessing of ONI and the State Department, who helped him learn to understand and speak Russian. ( he wouldn't have been much use to the US if he couldn't Speak and understand Russian. )
The animosity between Hoover and other intelligence agencies kept him in the dark about Lee Oswald...He thought that Lee was a turn coat traitor and a commie....
Dear Walt,
Nosenko claimed that KGB thought Oswald so "crazy" and "dangerous" looking that it didn't even interview him during the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR, but if Oswald's "Historic Diary" is to be believed, he was interviewed one time (by a KGB officer working in another agency as "cover"), and if we add Nechiporenko's narrative to the mix, Oswald was interviewed again by KGB, making a total of two such sit-downs. Now, why would Nosenko try to hide that? Was he afraid Johnson might nuke Moscow some two months after the assassination? LOL
Regardless, you might find this article interesting.
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/jul/10/cia-nosenko-logic/
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walt,
Nosenko claimed that KGB thought Oswald so "crazy" and "dangerous" looking that it didn't even interview him during the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR, but if Oswald's "Historic Diary" is to be believed, he was interviewed one time (by a KGB officer working in another agency as "cover"), and if we add Nechiporenko's narrative to the mix, Oswald was interviewed again by KGB, making a total of two such sit-downs.
Regardless, you might find this article interesting.
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/jul/10/cia-nosenko-logic/
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
The KGB could well have " interviewed " Lee ...After all they had recruited him in Japan , and He would have pretended to be giving them valuable information which in reality was authentic secret information, like FOF (friend or foe) aircraft identification codes but in fact were changed frequently. The Russian's may have thought that Lee could be useful to teach Americanese to the young Russian and Cuban espionage agents in training at the foreign language school in Minsk, so they didn't care if they were being given dated secrets....
I doubt that the KGB took no interest in Lee when he was in Russia ( or after he returned to the US) ....They probably knew that Lee was a US agent but they were benefiting more than they were losing by allowing Lee to live in Minsk where he had contact with their agents in training who innocuously asked Lee questions like " Hey Alik. On an American record I heard the words "Feeling Groovy" ...What's that mean?....
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The KGB could well have " interviewed " Lee ...After all they had recruited him in Japan , and He would have pretended to be giving them valuable information which in reality was authentic secret information, like FOF (friend or foe) aircraft identification codes but in fact were changed frequently. The Russian's may have thought that Lee could be useful to teach Americanese to the young Russian and Cuban espionage agents in training at the foreign language school in Minsk, so they didn't care if they were being given dated secrets....
I doubt that the KGB took no interest in Lee when he was in Russia ( or after he returned to the US) ....They probably knew that Lee was a US agent but they were benefiting more than they were losing by allowing Lee to live in Minsk where he had contact with their agents in training who innocuously asked Lee questions like " Hey Alik. On an American record I heard the words "Feeling Groovy" ...What's that mean?....
Dear Walt,
Just curious -- Do you believe Nosenko was a true defector?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walt,
Just curious -- Do you believe Nosenko was a true defector?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Yes, I believe Nosenko was a true defector....
And I'm well aware that there were men with far more information than I who argued both pro and con....Some were convinced that he was a Russsia agent while others thought he was a true defector....He was given a false identity and a good retirement pension....
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Yes, I believe Nosenko was a true defector....
And I'm well aware that there were men with far more information than I who argued both pro and con....Some were convinced that he was a Russsia agent while others thought he was a true defector....He was given a false identity and a good retirement pension....
Dear Walt,
Have you read the five-page section in Bagley's Ghosts of the Spy Wars called "The McCoy Intervention"?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS I'll post some of it here:
The Soviet Block R&R officer who started the process [of "clearing" Nosenko and setting him free], Leonard McCoy, was later made deputy chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff (under a new CI Staff chief, previously unconnected with anti-Soviet operations, who had replaced James Angleton). There, he continued fiercely to defend Nosenko's bona fides [footnote 5 -- See, for example, Spy Wars pp. 218?219 and its Appendix A with its endnote 3. Also, Leonard McCoy, "Yuri Nosenko, CIA," CIRA Newletter, Vol. XII, No. 3, Fall 1983] and, in the guise of cleansing unnecessary old files, destroyed all the CI Staff's existing file material that (independent of SB Division's own findings) cast doubt on Nosenko's good faith. [footnote 6 -- As testified by CI Staff operations chief Newton S. ("Scotty") Miler in a handwritten memorandum which is in the files of T. H. Bagley]. Not until forty-five years later was McCoy's appeal declassified and released by the National Archives (NARA) on 12 March 2012 under the JFK Act "with no objection from CIA.?"
McCoy opened, as we can now see, with his own finding and with a plea: "After examining the evidence of Nosenko's bona fides in the notebook," he wrote, "I am convinced that Nosenko is a bona fide defector. I believe that the case against him has arisen and persisted because the facts have been misconstrued, ignored, or interpreted without sufficient consideration of his psychological failings." The evidence, he said, is that Nosenko is "not a plant and not fabricating anything at all, except what is required by his disturbed personality." He recommended "that we appoint a new judge and jury for the Nosenko case consisting of persons not involved in the case so far" and proposed six candidates.
According to McCoy, it was not only Nosenko's psychology that should determine his bona fides, but also his reporting. "The ultimate conclusions must be based on his production," McCoy asserted, specifically claiming to be the only person qualified to evaluate that production. Certain of Nosenko's reports were important and fresh, he stated, and could not be considered KGB "throwaway?" or deception, as the notebook described them.
In reality, however, the value of Nosenko's intelligence reports had not been a major factor in the Division's finding. It had judged him a KGB plant on the basis of the circumstances of the case (of the sort listed in the "40 Questions" of the Appendix). McCoy did not explain or even mention a single one of these circumstances in his paper, so his arguments were irrelevant to the matter he pretended to deal with.
His was not a professional assessment of a complex counterintelligence situation but, instead, an emotional plea.
[It gets even better, Walt. Why don't you read it?]