JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Lee Wotton on January 26, 2018, 01:41:30 PM
-
There re numerous eyewitness accounts on 11/22 plus references to station waggons on 11/22/63. Here are some of them as I understand they were reported:
- Roger Craig stated he saw a Nash Rambler Station Waggon, with a luggage rack on the back end of the roof, on Elm Street pick up LHO and drive West in the direction of Oakcliffe and Redbird Airport.
- Oswald stated the station waggon belonged to Mrs. Paine. Note no model quoted. Ruth Paine owned a 1955 Chevy Belair without a luggage rack on the back end of the roof. Ruth Paine's had a colour change after 1963.
- The DPD radio transcripts refer to a 30's station waggon and appear to mention the possibility of suspects being detained and heading downtown to the court building.
- There were a few very similar station waggons in 1961 with a 61 Nash Rambler being very similar to a 61 Mercury Colony Park Waggon. There is a well known photo of someone getting into one of these on Elm Street that was attributed to Mary Ferrell and her husband.
- A similar station waggon is also photographed parked up on Houston prior to the motorcade passing by. Unusually compared to the other parked cars it was facing the opposite direction and away from the TSBD.
- Clay Shaw owned a 62 Nash Rambler Ambassador station waggon with a luggage rack on the back end of the roof.
- A witness stated that LHO was seen with Jack Ruby and another man that could have been David Ferrie on 4/11/63 in Houston. They were in a light coloured station waggon with rear roof luggage rack and wood veneer. The witness was introduced to Ruby.
What other station waggon information is out there?
Maybe the original plan was for LHO to leave the TSBD and not get in a station waggon at Elm but walk across to Houston and get in Ruth Paine's car and drive away? But not wanting to incriminate Paine any further they planned to pick him up unannounced on Elm as he made his way across DP?
Craig definitely didn't see LHO get in Paines car. Of all the station waggons the Chevy Belair is the most different from the Nash Rambler and it had no luggage rack. LHO didn't state a model of station waggon he got into but if the original plan was for him to use Paines car his first reaction would be to defend Paine as she was CIA and party to the plan. He then said very one will know who I am now confirming that his cover was blown
-
Lee
I'm just going by memory here but when Craig was or wasn't with Fritz
interrogating Oswald, Fritz mentioned the word - car - If he left the scene in a car?
LHO then stated ... that station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine .... don't bring her into this.
Or words to that effect
-
Lee
I'm just going by memory here but when Craig was or wasn't with Fritz
interrogating Oswald, Fritz mentioned the word - car - If he left the scene in a car?
LHO then stated ... that station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine .... don't bring her into this.
Or words to that effect
Fritz mentioned the word - car - If he left the scene in a car?
LHO then stated ... that station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine .... don't bring her into this.
That's what Roger Craig claimed ....But since Craig also claimed that he saw the words "7.65 Mauser stamped right there on the barrel"....Any thinking person would know that He couldn't possibly have seen that on the 6.5 CARCANO that was found buried beneath heavy boxes of books in the TSBD. Since Craig very obviously lied about the marking on the rifle, I'd bet that he was lying about the exchange between Fritz and Lee Oswald. In fact I seriously doubt that Roger Craig was in Fritz office while Lee was being interrogated.....
-
How about this?....
Craig sees a station wagon and someone resembling Oswald getting in it.
So Fritz mentions a station wagon to Oswald.
Oswald thinks they refer to Paines station wagon who he knows isn't involved. Because he would know she wasn't involved.
So he defends her.
From then until he died Craig insisted it was Oswald he saw getting in the car, not just someone resembling Oswald. IT WAS OSWALD.
He also claimed he read Mauser on the rifle barrel. Not just he thought it was a Mauser HE READ IT.
So for 50 years mentalists have believed Paine was involved and the rifle was a Mauser.
-
How about this?....
Craig sees a station wagon and someone resembling Oswald getting in it.
So Fritz mentions a station wagon to Oswald.
Oswald thinks they refer to Paines station wagon who he knows isn't involved. Because he would know she wasn't involved.
So he defends her.
From then until he died Craig insisted it was Oswald he saw getting in the car, not just someone resembling Oswald. IT WAS OSWALD.
He also claimed he read Mauser on the rifle barrel. Not just he thought it was a Mauser HE READ IT.
So for 50 years mentalists have believed Paine was involved and the rifle was a Mauser.
Craig insisted it was Oswald he saw getting in the car, not just someone resembling Oswald. IT WAS OSWALD.
I believe that Lee may have got into a Rambler Station wagon and left the area in that government vehicle....But NOT simply because Craig said so..... There are several corroborating reports from independent witnesses.....
What I'm saying is:... Craig probably did witness the young man getting into the Rambler...but his story about the exchange between Fritz and Oswald is BS. ( It's a pity that Craig destroyed his own credibility)
-
Fritz mentioned the word - car - If he left the scene in a car?
LHO then stated ... that station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine .... don't bring her into this.
That's what Roger Craig claimed ....But since Craig also claimed that he saw the words "7.65 Mauser stamped right there on the barrel"....Any thinking person would know that He couldn't possibly have seen that on the 6.5 CARCANO that was found buried beneath heavy boxes of books in the TSBD. Since Craig very obviously lied about the marking on the rifle, I'd bet that he was lying about the exchange between Fritz and Lee Oswald. In fact I seriously doubt that Roger Craig was in Fritz office while Lee was being interrogated.....
Hello Walt thank you for your post and for answering Dan's question. However, i've read testimony from another DPD man who was with Craig in the TSBD (was it Boone?) that first identified the rifle or a rifle as a Mauser, Boone or whoever it was used to run a gun and sporting goods shop and was confident with his identification.
-
Hello Walt thank you for your post and for answering Dan's question. However, i've read testimony from another DPD man who was with Craig in the TSBD (was it Boone?) that first identified the rifle or a rifle as a Mauser, Boone or whoever it was used to run a gun and sporting goods shop and was confident with his identification.
Oh Boy....Yes you're right....Seymour Weitzman DID initially believe the rifle was a Mauser.....He didn't get to examine it closely and assumed it was a mauser.....He admitted he had made a mistake.....But Roger Craig was one of those individuals who would never admit he was mistaken...and rather than admit his mistake he would elaborate and try to make his mistake more acceptable. There is at least one member of this forum that has the Roger Craig malady.....
-
So now we can understand why he alienated himself from his colleagues. Basically he was claiming their complicity in a cover up.
-
Craig?s list of lies is very long. His friend Eugene Boone told me that the atmosphere was very tense when Craig was there. His accusation that Harry Weatherford was involved in the assassination may have been the last drop. Boone told me that Weatherford was next to him during the shooting. Craig was an AH.
-
How do you know that it is B.S.? Where you there? For a good number of people his credibility is fine.
A good number of people believe the steel in the twin towers was vaporised by a ray gun.
-
Nine pieces of evidence show that a Mauser was found first. People like Walt, LNers, always deny this because it in and of itself points to a conspiracy.
Weitzman had more than a glance at the weapon as claimed too.
You have an image of the Mauser for us? I have several of the Carcanno. :) If Boone found the Mauser, then who found the Carcanno?
-
Nine pieces of evidence show that a Mauser was found first. People like Walt, LNers, always deny this because it in and of itself points to a conspiracy.
Weitzman had more than a glance at the weapon as claimed too.
People like Walt, LNers, always deny this because it in and of itself points to a conspiracy.
Some folks don't have the ability to reason for themselves.....(LNer's for example) Those folks will often grasp at some solution that they believe provides an answer to a problem that they simply don't have the ability to solve for themselves.
Thus some folks still cling to the silly idea that it was a mauser that was found where it had been WELL HIDDEN beneath heavy boxes of books on the sixth floor...And, I might add at a location that could NOT have been easily reached by a fleeing assassin. ( the location of the rifle was too far from the aisle to be reached by a 5' 9" man)
But that's getting away from the fact that as much as I'd like to believe Roger Craig's tales.....I cannot.
-
Thanks all for your posts. I have two immediate points:
- I've read Roger Craig's book that was weirdly unpublished because no one would publish it (sound familiar?). Without dispute is the fact that he lost his job and had a number of attempts on his life before supposedly killing himself with a shotgun to the chest?? I mean who kills themselves like that? My point is I haven't seen a jot of cited evidence on here that points to him lying or being unreliable??
- Secondly the FBI took the rifle away and found no prints on it so who knows what happened to that and indeed how many rifles were actually found that day?
-
Thanks Tom, Wasn't that the Mr Fritz who was so good he didn't have to take any interrogation notes or afford Oswald his legal rights? For someone who had a great memory it wasn't that great when it came to WC questions. There was a SS agent at the initial interrogations for some reason and I would wager this was Charlie Kunkel and he instructed Fritz not to record anything and not allow Oswald his legal rights.
After all the SS were not good at following the letter of the law that day with avoiding the Texas post mortem of JFK's body etc.
The SS at the time came under the jurisdiction of the Treasury. JFK had given notice that the National Reserve, a private profit making organisation, was to ultimately lose its commission on generating US bank notes. All part of the high Cabal
-
Thanks all for your posts. I have two immediate points:
- I've read Roger Craig's book that was weirdly unpublished because no one would publish it (sound familiar?).
CT books to LN books have a disproportionate ratio in favor of the kooks.
Without dispute is the fact that he lost his job and had a number of attempts on his life before supposedly killing himself with a shotgun to the chest?? I mean who kills themselves like that? My point is I haven't seen a jot of cited evidence on here that points to him lying or being unreliable??
The shotgun wound was to the Craig's shoulder and happened six months before his suicide. Craig died from a self-inflicted rifle wound just below the right clavicle area. His blood alcohol content was 0.3 (.08 is legal limit in most states).
Roger Craig: Mysterious Death? (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/craig_death.htm)
- Secondly the FBI took the rifle away and found no prints on it so who knows what happened to that and indeed how many rifles were actually found that day?
They found partial prints on the C2766 rifle. Not enough to attempt a viable lift and/or make a comparison with enough "points".
-
.....before supposedly killing himself with a shotgun to the chest?? I mean who kills themselves like that?
The typical entrance wound sites in suicides were the temple (36%), mouth (20%), forehead (11%) and left chest (15%)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-002-0325-8
JohnM
-
Typical LNer 💩 response.
Was 9/11 another conspiracy, Yes or No?
JohnM
-
Images don't show when a weapon was discovered. They also can't preclude other weapons from being found.
Where is your evidence showing how the Carcano made its way into the TSBD?
Where is your evidence showing how the Carcano made its way into the TSBD?
Bingo, you have absolutely no evidence that any conspirators smuggled a Carcano, Mauser or any other type of rifle onto the 6th floor, it's been 54 years and your whole case is nothing without this evidence.
Whereas we have Oswald's rifle at his work with his prints and matching fibers, the rifle was filmed as it was recovered on the 6th floor and Oswald's lies about where he put the package and the contents of the package and his flight from the scene of the crime and the killing of a cop are all very powerful evidence, as they say in the classics, Case Closed!
JohnM
-
Typical LNer 💩 response.
Typical bollocks response from you. You've been spouting the same crud for years.
Craig was about as credible as James Files.
-
Images don't show when a weapon was discovered. They also can't preclude other weapons from being found.
Where is your evidence showing how the Carcano made its way into the TSBD?
At least, I have lots of images showing a Carcanno. You have zero of them. For the Warren Commission, both Boone and Weizmann put an arrow where the rifle they saw was. They used the same photo, and their arrows point to the same spot. Then that means that the Mauser would have been found at the same place and time as the Carcanno. I talked to at least 6 people who were there. None remembers 2 rifles found. This issue was resolved 50 years ago!
-
Was 9/11 another conspiracy, Yes or No?
JohnM
There was a conspiracy after the fact ......The FBI could possibly have prevented that tragedy but chose to ignore information they had learned about the plot.
-
Images don't show when a weapon was discovered. They also can't preclude other weapons from being found.
Where is your evidence showing how the Carcano made its way into the TSBD?
Images don't show when a weapon was discovered. ...unless a person is smart enough to read the time by the shadows being cast in photos.....
-
Bingo, you have absolutely no evidence that any conspirators smuggled a Carcano, Mauser or any other type of rifle onto the 6th floor, it's been 54 years and your whole case is nothing without this evidence.
Whereas we have Oswald's rifle at his work with his prints and matching fibers, the rifle was filmed as it was recovered on the 6th floor and Oswald's lies about where he put the package and the contents of the package and his flight from the scene of the crime and the killing of a cop are all very powerful evidence, as they say in the classics, Case Closed!
JohnM
"and matching fibers"
LOL
Fibers from a shirt he wasn't wearing.
And no fibers from the blanket the Carcano was allegedly wrapped in for months.
LOL
"the package and the contents of the package"
You mean the alleged gun case that contained zero forensic evidence of ever containing the TSBD
Carcano, broken down or not.
-
The typical entrance wound sites in suicides were the temple (36%), mouth (20%), forehead (11%) and left chest (15%)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-002-0325-8
JohnM
All with shotguns?
-
Bingo, you have absolutely no evidence that any conspirators smuggled a Carcano, Mauser or any other type of rifle onto the 6th floor, it's been 54 years and your whole case is nothing without this evidence.
Whereas we have Oswald's rifle at his work with his prints and matching fibers, the rifle was filmed as it was recovered on the 6th floor and Oswald's lies about where he put the package and the contents of the package and his flight from the scene of the crime and the killing of a cop are all very powerful evidence, as they say in the classics, Case Closed!
JohnM
As they say in real life:
The HSCA didn't say case closed did they? In fact the opposite but no one did anything about it. Why? Because the high cabal of conspirators continue to run your country whilst Congress is a debating society.
-
Typical bollocks response from you. You've been spouting the same crud for years.
Craig was about as credible as James Files.
thanks John but my post said ive never seen anyone cite evidence for what you state here, and so it continues
-
"and matching fibers"
LOL
Fibers from a shirt he wasn't wearing.
And no fibers from the blanket the Carcano was allegedly wrapped in for months.
LOL
"the package and the contents of the package"
You mean the alleged gun case that contained zero forensic evidence of ever containing the TSBD
Carcano, broken down or not.
Gary, thanks for your post. I agree, a trial of LHO would have found him not guilty. The evidence was circumstantial at best and not good enough for a conviction. Why do people think he was killed? A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
-
All, thank you doe your posts but going back to the OP does anyone have any information on station waggons or photos of them in and around DP on 11/22
-
Gary, thanks for your post. I agree, a trial of LHO would have found him not guilty. The evidence was circumstantial at best and not good enough for a conviction. Why do people think he was killed? A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
The evidence was circumstantial at best and not good enough for a conviction. Why do people think he was killed? A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
Chief Curry admitted that they had no solid evidence against Lee Oswald......
A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
Hoover and LBJ could not afford to allow Lee Oswald to live long enough to go to trial ....... They were soiling their skivvies when they learned that Lee hadn't been killed in the TSBD.....
-
The evidence was circumstantial at best and not good enough for a conviction. Why do people think he was killed? A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
Chief Curry admitted that they had no solid evidence against Lee Oswald......
A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
Hoover and LBJ could not afford to allow Lee Oswald to live long enough to go to trial ....... They were soiling their skivvies when they learned that Lee hadn't been killed in the TSBD.....
Totally agree Walt, the FBI tried to get Curry to retract his statement that Oswald was known to the FBI
-
I agree, a trial of LHO would have found him not guilty. The evidence was circumstantial at best and not good enough for a conviction. Why do people think he was killed? A failed trial would prove conspiracy.
A trial of Lee Harvey Oswald would have found him not guilty. How wrong you are. Typical conspiracy hobbyist that has a compulsion to point the finger of blame at everyone other than Oswald.
The evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK is substantial both direct and indirect when put together as a whole and overwhelming. The evidence that Oswald shot JD Tippit is ironclad. Any competent jury would have found him guilty with more than enough evidence for a conviction. He was shot by Jack Ruby because like Oswald, Ruby was a lone nut looking for a place in the limelight.
-
Totally agree Walt, the FBI tried to get Curry to retract his statement that Oswald was known to the FBI
the FBI tried to get Curry to retract his statement that Oswald was known to the FBI
John Edgar Hoover who was the the FBI ( read God Father) in 1963, tried to get Curry to retract his statement that he knew that Oswald was CAPABLE OF ASSASSINATING JFK.
FBI agent James Hosty had been ordered by Hoover ( through SAIC Gordon Shanklin) to go to DPD headquarters and control the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald. ( This occurred BEFORE The DPD knew the name of the suspect they had arrested in the Texas theater.)----- How did Hoover know that Lee Harvey Oswald had not been shot in the theater and had been arrested by the Dallas police BEFORE the police had confirmed his identity?? Answer....Three of Hoover's mafia dons were in the theater at the time the Dallas police arrested that dastardly culprit who snuck into the theater without buying a ticket.
A few minutes after Lee was brought into police headquarters FBI agent James Hosty arrived at police headquarters as Hoover had ordered. Hosty saw a DPD detective, Jack Revill, who he knew was the head of the DPD intelligence unit and involved in monitoring subversives in Dallas.
Hosty blurted out....Jack, a communist has killed JFK, His name is Lee Harvey Oswald and we knew he was here in Dallas. We knew he was capable of assassinating the President ( but we never dreamed that he'd actually do it)
The part in italics and underlined was not part of Revill's memo..... but it was published in a story by Hugh Aynesworth in the Dallas Morning News on April 24 1964.
This is what had made the God Father J. Edgar Hoover livid...... There was nothing on record that indicated that Lee Oswald was capable of any violent act. ( He didn't even strike back when he was physically assaulted by Briniguer in New Orleans ) So where did Hosty get the idea that Lee could be set up as the patsy?..... ans:... He knew that Lee had fired a bullet through General Walker's window....and that could be made to look like a bonafide attempt to murder Walker.
-
How would you know what I have said since prior to January 6, 2018, there was NO John Anderson on this forum?
Wrong. I read the complete archives before the site crashed.
-
We are talking about you and not a smart person.
Rob, LOOK at the photos of Detective Day checking the CARCANO rifle for fingerprints behind a TSBD window that is brightly lit by sunshine.
Day clearly is examining the carcano and the shadows indicate that the time is about 1:45 pm ......
Learn to face the truth.....Roger Craig lied about the carcano being a Mauser. And it was merely his ego that caused him to lie. He had made a mistake in believing Seymour Weitzman who mistakenly identified the carcano as a Mauser. Weitzman admitted that he was in error...but the egotistical Craig could not admit an error..... so rather than admit his error he embellished the tale in an attempt to make it believable.
Most folks can see Roger Craig as he was....but there are a few who suffer from the same affliction that caused Roger Craig to lie... and those folks will not accept facts that refute some theory they embrace.
-
I have never relied on Roger Craig for the Mauser issue. Never. You LNers want to make it about him because you think that it is easier to shoot him down, but there is a good bit of evidence without him. You have been shown this evidence repeatedly, but you keep ignoring it and lying about it.
I have never relied on Roger Craig for the Mauser issue. Never.
On what do you base your belief that the rifle found by Boone was a mauser?
You LNers want to make it about him
Rob you are simply discrediting yourself and damaging your image by posting nonsense.....
-
A trial of Lee Harvey Oswald would have found him not guilty. How wrong you are. Typical conspiracy hobbyist that has a compulsion to point the finger of blame at everyone other than Oswald.
The evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK is substantial both direct and indirect when put together as a whole and overwhelming. The evidence that Oswald shot JD Tippit is ironclad. Any competent jury would have found him guilty with more than enough evidence for a conviction. He was shot by Jack Ruby because like Oswald, Ruby was a lone nut looking for a place in the limelight.
hahahahahahahaha is it April 1st?
-
Rob, LOOK at the photos of Detective Day checking the CARCANO rifle for fingerprints behind a TSBD window that is brightly lit by sunshine.
Day clearly is examining the carcano and the shadows indicate that the time is about 1:45 pm ......
Learn to face the truth.....Roger Craig lied about the carcano being a Mauser. And it was merely his ego that caused him to lie. He had made a mistake in believing Seymour Weitzman who mistakenly identified the carcano as a Mauser. Weitzman admitted that he was in error...but the egotistical Craig could not admit an error..... so rather than admit his error he embellished the tale in an attempt to make it believable.
Most folks can see Roger Craig as he was....but there are a few who suffer from the same affliction that caused Roger Craig to lie... and those folks will not accept facts that refute some theory they embrace.
Walt, I refer to my earlier post asking for the facts cited that prove Craig was lying? I've still never seen any?
-
A good number of people believe the steel in the twin towers was vaporised by a ray gun.
Who?
-
Bingo, you have absolutely no evidence that any conspirators smuggled a Carcano, Mauser or any other type of rifle onto the 6th floor,
(http://rs1209.pbsrc.com/albums/cc395/scout03060/smileys/yawn-1.gif~c200)
You have absolutely no evidence that Oswald smuggled any rifle onto the 6th floor.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
-
The evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK is substantial both direct and indirect when put together as a whole and overwhelming.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
Howard Brennan's eventual identification after his "change of heart".
Handwriting on Klein's order coupon and PO box form and partial palm print that showed up at the FBI a week later on a card.
Limousine bullet fragments matched to rifle
Expended cartridge shells matched to rifle
Large brown paper bag with Oswald's prints
Palm print and fingerprint in sniper's nest
The ballistics implicate a weapon, not a person. It cannot be proven that the large paper bag was the one Frazier saw or that Oswald carried it into the building or that it was in the sniper's nest when it was first discovered or that it ever contained a rifle. And prints on boxes in the building are not remarkable because he worked there and would be expected to handle boxes.
So we're left with an inconsistent identification from a witness who was influenced by television and newspaper reports, a questionable reappearing partial print, and unscientific and biased analysis of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon.
What exactly is it that you find "overwhelming"? That he left his wedding ring behind?
-
Answer....Three of Hoover's mafia dons were in the theater at the time the Dallas police arrested that dastardly culprit who snuck into the theater without buying a ticket.
They didn't even have any evidence of that. The DPD were batting a thousand that day...
-
Wrong. I read the complete archives before the site crashed.
Tell us about Mike Williams.
-
Tell us about Mike Williams.
Never met the guy. Wasn't he British?
-
Never met the guy. Wasn't he British?
How about Miles Scull?
-
How about Miles Scull?
No idea where he's from. You really want me to prove I was here before January? Hire a detective.
-
I would expect someone who had read the complete archives to have recognized these names.
-
Don't need to. It's obvious that if you were here before January 6 then it wasn't under your current name.
So how do you know so much about what I have said supposedly?
Almost every one of your posts, and you created more than 23,000 posts as "Caprio 23k", prior to the forum database loss,
four weeks ago, has a Trumpesque misleading, distorted, or intentionally inaccurate claim or ingredient!
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6564 was the profile link of an John Anderson.
LINK (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VixGGXZvOksJ:https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php%3Fboard%3D1.3150+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) :
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/CaprioJohnAnderson2.jpg)
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/CaprioJohnAnderson.jpg)
There is a tiny possibility you are incapacitated, but if not, what could be your excuse for what you do here, mendacity aside?
-
One thing I did learn reading the archives was to ignore anything written by Rob Caprio.
-
You're still trying to figure out who shot JFK. That says it all.
-
How would you know this?
Because he's read all the posts since the forum was formed and he's a LNer!!
"The JFK assassination official record is not history. It is a Myth!! It is a myth that a scant number of Americans have ever believed. It is a myth that a generation of esteemed journalists and historians have refused to examine, have refused to question and above all, have closed ranks to criticize and vilify those who do".
-
How would you know this?
Because he's read every post and he's a LN'er!!
"The official record of the JFK assassination is not history. This is a myth! It Is a myth that a scant number of Americans have ever believed. It is a myth that a generation of esteemed journalists and historians have refused to examine, refused to question, and above all have closed ranks to criticize and vilify those who do".