JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on January 25, 2018, 01:07:45 AM

Title: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 25, 2018, 01:07:45 AM
The inverted caret symbol.

Hosty's note, on the top line which you highlighted in yellow, says:

"Mr. Truly had"

In the second line, Hosty noted only one word:

"rifle"

Then, at some later point in time (whether it be only minutes later or days later once he had the opportunity to go over his notes to make things more clear and accurate), Hosty added the inverted caret symbol along with "2 others".

Notice that Hosty's use use of the inverted caret symbol along with "2 others" is written in much darker ink, which suggests that it was added later.

Hosty's use of the inverted caret symbol makes the note actually read:

"day before yesterday
Mr Truly 2 others had
rifle
1st floor outside
office"



Hosty didn't use the inverted caret symbol correctly, but it didn't have to be correct, as long as he understood.  They were only his notes, after all.

The inverted caret symbol is NOT an ampersand logo.


(https://i.imgur.com/1N9q5ez.jpg)
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 25, 2018, 01:05:25 PM
Don't agree that what you call the inverted caret is written i darker ink, and how do you know it was written in later?

Looks all the world as though he was writing "and".
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2018, 01:32:43 PM
Don't agree that what you call the inverted caret is written i darker ink, and how do you know it was written in later?

Looks all the world as though he was writing "and".


Looks all the world as though he was writing "and".

Yes, that is a sloppily scribbled plus, or and, sign  ....but I have to give Billy Bob credit....for inventing that counter point , feeble though it be.


Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 26, 2018, 01:33:37 PM
Anyone who believes this is an ampersand logo has issues...

(https://i.imgur.com/yZULyKJ.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 26, 2018, 01:37:43 PM
Anyone who believes this is an ampersand logo has issues...

(https://i.imgur.com/yZULyKJ.jpg?1)

I've certainly got issues, Bill, such as why are you trying so hard to prove it's not "and'?

What do you think he meant by if, as you say he was using a caret, Bill?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 26, 2018, 01:43:31 PM
I've certainly got issues, Bill, such as why are you trying so hard to prove it's not "and'?

What do you think he meant by if, as you say he was using a caret, Bill?

I don't need to prove that it's not "and".  Just open your eyes.  The symbol is right in front of you.

As for what I think Hosty meant, read the original post of this thread.  I explained it pretty well.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 26, 2018, 01:50:04 PM
I don't need to prove that it's not "and".  Just open your eyes.  The symbol is right in front of you.

As for what I think Hosty meant, read the original post of this thread.  I explained it pretty well.

What you said in your opening post.
"Then, at some later point in time (whether it be only minutes later or days later once he had the opportunity to go over his notes to make things more clear and accurate), Hosty added the inverted caret symbol along with "2 others".[/quote]

How do you know he added them later?
Quote
Notice that Hosty's use use of the inverted caret symbol along with "2 others" is written in much darker ink, which suggests that it was added later.


It is not in "much darker ink."

Quote
Hoist's [sic] use of the inverted caret symbol makes the note actually read:

As I said before Hosty, probably wouldn't have known what a caret was.

And if he did why would he mistakenly use it?



Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 26, 2018, 01:54:25 PM
What you said in your opening post.
"Then, at some later point in time (whether it be only minutes later or days later once he had the opportunity to go over his notes to make things more clear and accurate), Hosty added the inverted caret symbol along with "2 others".

How do you know he added them later?
It is not in "much darker ink."

As I said before Hosty, probably wouldn't have known what a caret was.

And if he did why would he mistakenly use it?


Quote
How do you know he added them later?
It is not in "much darker ink."

Sure it is.


Quote
As I said before Hosty, probably wouldn't have known what a caret was.

And if he did why would he mistakenly use it?

You answered your own question just before you asked it.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 26, 2018, 01:58:20 PM

Sure it is.

No it isn't. You just want it to be.

Quote
You answered your own question just before you asked it.

So it's just your guess that he used it mistakenly?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 26, 2018, 03:31:43 PM
Hosty's use of the ampersand logo (the symbol for the word "and")...

(https://i.imgur.com/mpV61Nh.jpg?1)


Hosty's use of the inverted caret...

(https://i.imgur.com/yZULyKJ.jpg?1)


Hosty's use of the inverted caret is very obviously NOT the same thing as his use of the ampersand logo.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Gary Craig on January 26, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
Hosty's use of the ampersand logo (the symbol for the word "and")...

(https://i.imgur.com/mpV61Nh.jpg?1)
Hosty's use of the inverted caret...

(https://i.imgur.com/yZULyKJ.jpg?1)
Hosty's use of the inverted caret is very obviously NOT the same thing as his use of the ampersand logo.

"Hosty's use of the inverted caret is very obviously NOT the same thing as his use of the ampersand logo."

Wow

Are you Egyptian?

You seem to be in de-Nile alot.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2018, 06:06:11 PM
"Hosty's use of the inverted caret is very obviously NOT the same thing as his use of the ampersand logo."

Wow

Are you Egyptian?

You seem to be in de-Nile alot.

This attempt at changing what FBI Agent Hosty wrote is quite similar to Hosty trying to change the words on DPD Detective Jack Revill's memo to Captain Ganaway ......Hosty acknowledges that he told Detective Revill everything that Revill wrote in the memo ...except.. the last paragraph...  Which says...

" Agent Hosty further stated that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was aware of the subject ( Oswald) and they had information that the subject ( Oswald) was capable of committing the assassination of President Kennedy."

Hosty denied saying that to Revill....  But he cannot explain why Revill would write that if he (Hosty ) hadn't said it.

Similarly the note about the rifle says what it says....."Mr Truly had rifle and two others"

It may help to add an adjective  to the truncated entry....  Mr Truly had (THIS) rifle and two others...or...Mr Truly had ( THE) rifle and two others......   
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Anderson on January 26, 2018, 06:10:04 PM
So are we all agreeing if Oswald had actually said he had seen the Carcano and two others, he must have been right?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2018, 06:24:07 PM
So are we all agreeing if Oswald had actually said he had seen the Carcano and two others, he must have been right?

Do you think that Lee would have lied about something that could very easily be verified by asking other employees at the TSBD?    He would have been a complete idiot to lie about seeing the rifle....

Lee told Captain Fritz that he was in the lunchroom on the first floor when President Kennedy passed by the building. Lee said that he had observed Junior Jarman and Harold Norman ( he didn't know them by their names)  enter the back door of the TSBD while he was there on the first floor.   Jarman and Norman confirmed that they had in fact entered the first floor shipping room at the back door at about 12:27....   

Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 26, 2018, 06:57:25 PM
Lee said that he had observed Junior Jarman and Harold Norman ( he didn't know them by their names)  enter the back door of the TSBD while he was there on the first floor.

Nobody present at the interrogations ever said that Lee said anything about the back door.  That's Walt Fabrication #2
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 26, 2018, 07:00:34 PM
(https://s17.postimg.org/ayya40kln/hosty.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ayya40kln/)

Certainly looks like an "and ' sign to me. not an inverted caret.

Please zoom in.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 26, 2018, 07:01:10 PM
I can't believe that two forum threads are now preoccupied by Bill's inverted carrot.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/hosty-note.jpg)

Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 26, 2018, 07:02:38 PM
It's our forum pedant, John. We were posting the same item at the same time, but yours is better.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2018, 07:24:58 PM
Nobody present at the interrogations ever said that Lee said anything about the back door.  That's Walt Fabrication #2

Nobody present at the interrogations ever said that Lee said anything about the back door.  That's Walt Fabrication #2


So you apparently believe that Jarman and Norman crawled through a window.....Huh John?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 26, 2018, 07:52:34 PM
Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2018, 08:24:29 PM
Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

So Lee Oswald told Fritz that he saw two of the TSBD employees who were Negroes come in while he was on the first floor. One of them was called "junior"  ...We know that those two employees were Junor Jarman and Harold Norman who testified that they did in fact enter the the shipping room through the back door at about 12:27.   
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 26, 2018, 09:45:08 PM
Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

So Lee Oswald told Fritz that he saw two of the TSBD employees who were Negroes come in while he was on the first floor. One of them was called "junior"  ...We know that those two employees were Junor Jarman and Harold Norman who testified that they did in fact enter the the shipping room through the back door at about 12:27.   

Sigh.  It's like talking to a brick wall.

Walt's fabrication:  "Lee said that he had observed Junior Jarman and Harold Norman ( he didn't know them by their names)  enter the back door of the TSBD"

Reports of the people present at the interrogation:
Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

Do you see the words "back door" in any of those reports?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 26, 2018, 10:27:40 PM
This attempt at changing what FBI Agent Hosty wrote is quite similar to Hosty trying to change the words on DPD Detective Jack Revill's memo to Captain Ganaway ......Hosty acknowledges that he told Detective Revill everything that Revill wrote in the memo ...except.. the last paragraph...  Which says...

" Agent Hosty further stated that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was aware of the subject ( Oswald) and they had information that the subject ( Oswald) was capable of committing the assassination of President Kennedy."

Hosty denied saying that to Revill....  But he cannot explain why Revill would write that if he (Hosty ) hadn't said it.

Similarly the note about the rifle says what it says....."Mr Truly had rifle and two others"

It may help to add an adjective  to the truncated entry....  Mr Truly had (THIS) rifle and two others...or...Mr Truly had ( THE) rifle and two others......   


Quote
Similarly the note about the rifle says what it says....."Mr Truly had rifle and two others"

No.

Hosty's note does not say that at all.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2018, 10:28:55 PM
Sigh.  It's like talking to a brick wall.

Walt's fabrication:  "Lee said that he had observed Junior Jarman and Harold Norman ( he didn't know them by their names)  enter the back door of the TSBD"

Reports of the people present at the interrogation:
Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

Do you see the words "back door" in any of those reports?


Do you see the words "back door" in any of those reports?

Duh!...Most people with the ability to reason know that Jarman and Norman both said that they walked North along the east side of the TSBD to the loading dock and then walked west on the loading dock to the back door of the shipping room and entered at that door......

But apparently you, Mr Iacoletti, can't comprehend this simple idea......
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 26, 2018, 10:32:54 PM
(https://s17.postimg.org/ayya40kln/hosty.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ayya40kln/)

Certainly looks like an "and ' sign to me. not an inverted caret.

Please zoom in.

Why would you refer to the notes of Will Fritz when we're debating whether Hosty used an inverted caret or an ampersand logo? 
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Mytton on January 27, 2018, 12:21:58 AM


Iccy's pic looks legit.

(https://s17.postimg.org/lre81sbi7/hosty1.gif)

To me both these look like they represent the same symbol.

(https://s17.postimg.org/shupb7bin/hosty3.gif)

Hosty's rough notes are just designed to be a reminder for when he makes a more detailed report later.
Does it make sense to write that Truly had a rifle and two others(rifles) wouldn't you just say Truly had three rifles?
Alternatively Hosty could be saying that Oswald told him Truly had a rifle and there were two others(people) who also saw the rifle?


Mr. BALL. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2 or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you notice that Oswald said in the course of his interview by Captain Fritz that he had not had a rifle but he had seen a rifle in the Possession of Mr. Truly?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.




JohnM
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 27, 2018, 02:17:27 PM
Why would you refer to the notes of Will Fritz when we're debating whether Hosty used an inverted caret or an ampersand logo?

I thought you were going to say that Fritz used a caret as well. :)

I noticed you didn't answer my question yet again.
i.e As I said before Hosty, probably wouldn't have known what a caret was.

And if he did why would he mistakenly use it?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2018, 01:45:53 PM
I thought you were going to say that Fritz used a caret as well. :)

I noticed you didn't answer my question yet again.
i.e As I said before Hosty, probably wouldn't have known what a caret was.

And if he did why would he mistakenly use it?

I thought you were going to say that Fritz used a caret as well. :)

If Fritz used a caret it would have been orange  and huge......  And he would have used it in a threatening manner ...like threatening to insert it in a suspect's nose.....
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 29, 2018, 01:31:49 PM
This attempt at changing what FBI Agent Hosty wrote is quite similar to Hosty trying to change the words on DPD Detective Jack Revill's memo to Captain Ganaway ......Hosty acknowledges that he told Detective Revill everything that Revill wrote in the memo ...except.. the last paragraph...  Which says...

" Agent Hosty further stated that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was aware of the subject ( Oswald) and they had information that the subject ( Oswald) was capable of committing the assassination of President Kennedy."

Hosty denied saying that to Revill....  But he cannot explain why Revill would write that if he (Hosty ) hadn't said it.

Similarly the note about the rifle says what it says....."Mr Truly had rifle and two others"

It may help to add an adjective  to the truncated entry....  Mr Truly had (THIS) rifle and two others...or...Mr Truly had ( THE) rifle and two others......   

If Hosty had been referring to TWO other men when he wrote..."  Mr Truly had  rifle and two others..." Then when he referred to that note in writing his report why did he simply refer to those others as "individuals" and not specifically TWO other men.??

Here's how Hosty  transcribed the information ...

"Oswald stated that he had observed a MR. Truly  ( phonetic) a supervisor at the Texas Schoolbook Depository on Wednesday November 20, 1963, display a rifle, to some individuals in his office on the first floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository, but denied ever owning a rifle himself."

Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 29, 2018, 02:52:25 PM
Can someone post Hosty's note without the top line cut off, or least give me a citation where I can go look at it?
Does that top line read 3:15, or 2:15?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 29, 2018, 05:55:53 PM
Can someone post Hosty's note without the top line cut off, or least give me a citation where I can go look at it?
Does that top line read 3:15, or 2:15?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

The time that Hosty wrote at the very top of the page is 3:15....(He verifies that time in his book  Assignment: Oswald.)

Hosty must have had Lee Oswald's rooming house address BEFORE the interrogation began because his first entry is "1026 N. Beckley room"  then the next item is "2515 W. 5th Irving "

Fritz tried to make it appear as though Lee Oswald was uncooperative and he tried to conceal the address of the rooming house....

Hosty had those addresses before Fritz started questioning Lee.....

Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 29, 2018, 06:38:27 PM
The time that Hosty wrote at the very top of the page is 3:15....(He verifies that time in his book  Assignment: Oswald.)

Hosty must have had Lee Oswald's rooming house address BEFORE the interrogation began because his first entry is "1026 N. Beckley room"  then the next item is "2515 W. 5th Irving "

Fritz tried to make it appear as though Lee Oswald was uncooperative and he tried to conceal the address of the rooming house....

Hosty had those addresses before Fritz started questioning Lee.....

Walt,

Not necessarily.
The 3:15 time matches Fritz's interrogation notes.
Police detectives had already been dispatched to Beckley 35 minutes before that at 2:40.
In his Report to Curry, Revill wrote that he met Hosty in the basement at 2:50.

Fritz told the WC that an officer, whose name he could not recall, had told him of the Beckley address before he (Fritz) went in to talk to Oswald at 2:20.

Somebody at the police station called the Dallas FBI and told them that LHO had been arrested. Hosty recognized the name. Shanklin called Washington, and Washington told Shanklin to have Hosty get his butt down there. Washington also called Fritz to hold the questioning until Hosty could get there.

Hosty (4H461)
Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name.

Mr. HOSTY. Right. There are no regional offices. I then took the file to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on Lee Harvey Oswald. While I sat there he immediately called headquarters and advised headquarters here in Washington, D.C., that Lee Harvey Oswald was under arrest down at Dallas and had been observed shooting a police officer. They had eyewitnesses to his killing of Officer Tippit.
Mr. STERN. How do you know that?
Mr. HOSTY. This had been given to us by one of our agents from the call from the Dallas Police Department who had given the information. I don't know who it was. I did not receive the call.

It is possible that whoever called the FBI "shortly after 2:00", also told them of the Beckley address, but without knowing who made the call from DPD, or who took the call at the FBI, it's impossible to know.

On the other hand, I find it very hard to believe that Hosty never criss-crossed the phone number that he said Ruth Paine gave him on November 5th.

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 29, 2018, 07:08:42 PM

It is possible that whoever called the FBI "shortly after 2:00", also told them of the Beckley address, but without knowing who made the call from DPD, or who took the call at the FBI, it's impossible to know.

On the other hand, I find it very hard to believe that Hosty never criss-crossed the phone number that he said Ruth Paine gave him on November 5th.

Steve Thomas

Bookhout told the WC that it was he who made the call, but that he was not in Fritz's office when the questioning began at 2:20.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bookhout.htm
Mr. STERN - Were you present when he was brought in?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes.

Mr. STERN - Then what occurred, that you observed?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and two homicide officers.
Mr. STERN - Were you present?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - I was not in the office at that time. I called our office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was to sit in on the interview, and I was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m.

Bookhout was not present when Fritz first started talking to Oswald at 2:20, so he couldn't have transmitted Oswald's Beckley St. address to Hosty at that point, unless Fritz told Bookhout at the same time he dispatched Senkel and Cunnungham at 2:40, or the "un-named officer" also told Bookhout.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Paul McBrearty on January 29, 2018, 07:48:08 PM
This is definitely not an inverted caret symbol, it is an ampersand symbol.

(https://i.imgur.com/syHtyOj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/BYWlwjw.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/lMxp1kJ.png)
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 29, 2018, 07:55:00 PM
Walt,

Not necessarily.
The 3:15 time matches Fritz's interrogation notes.
Police detectives had already been dispatched to Beckley 35 minutes before that at 2:40.
In his Report to Curry, Revill wrote that he met Hosty in the basement at 2:50.

Fritz told the WC that an officer, whose name he could not recall, had told him of the Beckley address before he (Fritz) went in to talk to Oswald at 2:20.

Somebody at the police station called the Dallas FBI and told them that LHO had been arrested. Hosty recognized the name. Shanklin called Washington, and Washington told Shanklin to have Hosty get his butt down there. Washington also called Fritz to hold the questioning until Hosty could get there.

Hosty (4H461)
Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name.

Mr. HOSTY. Right. There are no regional offices. I then took the file to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on Lee Harvey Oswald. While I sat there he immediately called headquarters and advised headquarters here in Washington, D.C., that Lee Harvey Oswald was under arrest down at Dallas and had been observed shooting a police officer. They had eyewitnesses to his killing of Officer Tippit.
Mr. STERN. How do you know that?
Mr. HOSTY. This had been given to us by one of our agents from the call from the Dallas Police Department who had given the information. I don't know who it was. I did not receive the call.

It is possible that whoever called the FBI "shortly after 2:00", also told them of the Beckley address, but without knowing who made the call from DPD, or who took the call at the FBI, it's impossible to know.

On the other hand, I find it very hard to believe that Hosty never criss-crossed the phone number that he said Ruth Paine gave him on November 5th.

Steve Thomas


Fritz told the WC that an officer, whose name he could not recall, had told him of the Beckley address before he (Fritz) went in to talk to Oswald at 2:20.

I don't believe Fritz.....  He was a key conspirator.

Somebody at the police station called the Dallas FBI and told them that LHO had been arrested.

There were three FBI agents in the Texas theater at the time of Lee's arrest.....Bardwell Odum, Jim Swinford, and Bob Barrett.   Nobody from the DPD contacted the FBI.....Hoover's Extra Special agents were at the scene.

Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name.

According to the official story..... The DPD didn't know the identity of the man they had arrested "shortly after 2 O'clock"

The official story has the arch villain Lee Harrrrvey Osssswald being totally uncooperative and snarling at Fritz to figger it out for himself.....  But Hoover knew the identity of the man who had been arrested in the theater BEFORE Lee arrived at the Police station. 
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 29, 2018, 08:46:35 PM
This is definitely not an inverted caret symbol, it is an ampersand symbol.

(https://i.imgur.com/syHtyOj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/BYWlwjw.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/lMxp1kJ.png)

It sure looks like an ampersand symbol, but it still looks nothing like the very obvious ampersand symbol Hosty used on the 2nd page.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
It sure looks like an ampersand symbol, but it still looks nothing like the very obvious ampersand symbol Hosty used on the 2nd page.

It sure looks like an ampersand symbol,

This is probably the best we can hope for from Billy Bob.....   He simply lacks the gonads to admit he was wrong.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 03:45:31 PM
The time that Hosty wrote at the very top of the page is 3:15....(He verifies that time in his book  Assignment: Oswald.)

Hosty must have had Lee Oswald's rooming house address BEFORE the interrogation began because his first entry is "1026 N. Beckley room"  then the next item is "2515 W. 5th Irving "

Fritz tried to make it appear as though Lee Oswald was uncooperative and he tried to conceal the address of the rooming house....

Hosty had those addresses before Fritz started questioning Lee.....

Hosty must have had Lee Oswald's rooming house address BEFORE the interrogation began because his first entry is "1026 N. Beckley room"  then the next item is "2515 W. 5th Irving "

I don't believe I made my point clear in the above statement....

The point is:....Hosty knew that Marina resided at the house of Paine at 2515 W. 5th in Irving......But that address never came up during the early interrogation of Lee Oswald.   Therefore Hosty must have been jotting down those addresses from memory before the interrogation started.......

IOW.....Hosty KNEW where Lee was living in Oakcliff.....But lied and denied that he knew the address.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 30, 2018, 03:58:43 PM

The point is:....Hosty knew that Marina resided at the house of Paine at 2515 W. 5th in Irving......But that address never came up during the early interrogation of Lee Oswald. 

Walt,

I'm sorry, but yes it did. the Irving St. address was the first rattle out of the box when Truly gave it to Fritz at the TSBD, before Oswald had even been arrested.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Anderson on January 30, 2018, 04:11:50 PM
Hosty's main involvement, rather his only involvement with Oswald was keeping tabs on his places of residence and employment, and the nature of his employment. It's too much of a stretch to accept he didn't establish the rooming house address via the phone number, as supplied by Ruth Paine.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 04:17:05 PM
Walt,

I'm sorry, but yes it did. the Irving St. address was the first rattle out of the box when Truly gave it to Fritz at the TSBD, before Oswald had even been arrested.

Steve Thomas

Truly gave it to Fritz at the TSBD, before Oswald had even been arrested.

I don't believe the Irving address of 2515 W 5th,  came up during the first interrogation......  That address is not mentioned in the FBI reports of Hosty, Bookhout or Clements for 11/22/63.

I'm not saying that Fritz didn't know that address after Truly gave it to him at the TSBD .....  I'm saying the address was not mentioned during the interrogation.. so how did Hosty know the addresses BEFORE the interrogation.  We know he knew the Irving street address....but he denied that he knew the rooming house address.....
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 30, 2018, 04:54:51 PM
It sure looks like an ampersand symbol, but it still looks nothing like the very obvious ampersand symbol Hosty used on the 2nd page.

Again, Bill, why do you believe Hosty would use an " inverted caret" mistakenly?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 05:13:52 PM
Walt,

I'm sorry, but yes it did. the Irving St. address was the first rattle out of the box when Truly gave it to Fritz at the TSBD, before Oswald had even been arrested.

Steve Thomas

Hi Steve...Have you noticed that you and Joe idiot are using the same avatar.....  Perhaps you would like to change your avatar ......Though I doubt anybody would confuse you with a prevaricator.   
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 30, 2018, 05:15:09 PM
Truly gave it to Fritz at the TSBD, before Oswald had even been arrested.

I don't believe the Irving address of 2515 W 5th,  came up during the first interrogation......  That address is not mentioned in the FBI reports of Hosty, Bookhout or Clements for 11/22/63.

I'm not saying that Fritz didn't know that address after Truly gave it to him at the TSBD .....  I'm saying the address was not mentioned during the interrogation.. so how did Hosty know the addresses BEFORE the interrogation.  We know he knew the Irving street address....but he denied that he knew the rooming house address.....

Walt, you're absolutely right. The Irving address didn't come up in the first interrogation Hosty sat in on.
Fritz had already dispatched Police Detectives, Adamcik (7H202), Rose (7H227) and Stovall (7H186) to that address at 2:30.
Adamcik, Rose, and Stovall are unanimous in saying that when they arrived at this address, they had to wait for 35-40 minutes for the Deputy Sheriffs to arrive since Irving was outside their jurisdiction. Not only that, but Fritz was supposedly so hot to trot, that he sent them out there, that according to Adamcik, without a search warrant.

W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. at 2:40.

Hosty didn't arrive until 3:15.

What I have never understood is why Fritz didn't send Detectives to the Irving St. address right then and there at the TSBD.
The President has been shot. You've just found out that you have a man missing, and that he has an address in Irving. Why didn't he immediately send Detectives out there right then and there? Why wait? And what was that little side visit to Decker on the way back to Headquarters all about?

I agree. Hosty should have had the Beckley St. address long ago, but whether he did or not is something I've never been able to answer to my satisfaction. Ruth Paine gave him a number where Oswald could be reached back on November 5th. When the Sheriff's Deputies arrived at the Irving St. address, it took them like five minutes to call back to the Sheriff's Department and ask them to criss-cross the number. Why hadn't Hosty done that two weeks ago? Or did he, and we just don't know about it?

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 30, 2018, 05:22:43 PM
Perhaps you would like to change your avatar ......

Walt,

Thanks. I thought I had a limited number to choose from. I turned that off. I don't like the avatar thingy anyway.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
Walt, you're absolutely right. The Irving address didn't come up in the first interrogation Hosty sat in on.
Fritz had already dispatched Police Detectives, Adamcik (7H202), Rose (7H227) and Stovall (7H186) to that address at 2:30.
Adamcik, Rose, and Stovall are unanimous in saying that when they arrived at this address, they had to wait for 35-40 minutes for the Deputy Sheriffs to arrive since Irving was outside their jurisdiction. Not only that, but Fritz was supposedly so hot to trot, that he sent them out there, that according to Adamcik, without a search warrant.

W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. at 2:40.

Hosty didn't arrive until 3:15.

What I have never understood is why Fritz didn't send Detectives to the Irving St. address right then and there at the TSBD.
The President has been shot. You've just found out that you have a man missing, and that he has an address in Irving. Why didn't he immediately send Detectives out there right then and there? Why wait? And what was that little side visit to Decker on the way back to Headquarters all about?

I agree. Hosty should have had the Beckley St. address long ago, but whether he did or not is something I've never been able to answer to my satisfaction. Ruth Paine gave him a number where Oswald could be reached back on November 5th. When the Sheriff's Deputies arrived at the Irving St. address, it took them like five minutes to call back to the Sheriff's Department and ask them to criss-cross the number. Why hadn't Hosty done that two weeks ago? Or did he, and we just don't know about it?

Steve Thomas

Or did he, and we just don't know about it?

I suspect that Hosty DID know that Lee had a room at 1026 N. Beckley.....  But he denied that he knew where the rooming house was located.   We can speculate about why Hosty would have claimed that he didn't know where the rooming house was located......  But It's pretty obvious that he DID know where Lee was living.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 09:48:02 PM
Walt,

Thanks. I thought I had a limited number to choose from. I turned that off. I don't like the avatar thingy anyway.

Steve Thomas

Under avatar identifier.... "faces"....Lurker...   or... The Statistician.... would fit and make your posts easy to find.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Bill Brown on January 30, 2018, 09:51:01 PM
Again, Bill, why do you believe Hosty would use an " inverted caret" mistakenly?

Long ago (LOL), back when I believed the character was an inverted caret, I wouldn't have been able to state why Hosty would have used the character improperly.  In the version of the note that I was using, the symbol did not look like an ampersand at all.  The symbol simply read "v" (the inverted caret).  Now that better (more high resolution) copies of the Hosty notes have been posted, I can accept that I was wrong and that the symbol is an ampersand logo.  The ampersand on the first page of the notes looks nothing like the most definite ampersand on the second page, however.

But, to answer your question directly, if I believed the character was an inverted caret, I still would not be able to explain why Hosty used in incorrectly.  Perhaps, like you yourself suggest, Hosty wasn't familiar enough with the inverted caret to use it in the correct manner.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
I'm sorry, but yes it did. the Irving St. address was the first rattle out of the box when Truly gave it to Fritz at the TSBD, before Oswald had even been arrested.

Yes, when Oswald and only Oswald was supposedly missing at the supposed "roll call".
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
What I have never understood is why Fritz didn't send Detectives to the Irving St. address right then and there at the TSBD.
The President has been shot. You've just found out that you have a man missing, and that he has an address in Irving. Why didn't he immediately send Detectives out there right then and there?

Because "being missing" is not probable cause to search somebody's house.  Especially when other people are also missing.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2018, 10:33:53 PM
Now that better (more high resolution) copies of the Hosty notes have been posted, I can accept that I was wrong and that the symbol is an ampersand logo.

(http://rs767.pbsrc.com/albums/xx316/RnRdriver/Holidays/1sm180congrat.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 10:51:21 PM
(http://rs767.pbsrc.com/albums/xx316/RnRdriver/Holidays/1sm180congrat.gif~c200)

Hey John......This also means that Walt was right......  How about that?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2018, 10:57:21 PM
Hey John......This also means that Walt was right......  How about that?

Except for the "2 other rifles" thing...
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 11:02:13 PM
Except for the "2 other rifles" thing...

Oh, so you know that Hosty wasn't referring to two other rifles...even though that IS what the note says....

How do you know??
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2018, 11:34:21 PM
Oh, so you know that Hosty wasn't referring to two other rifles...even though that IS what the note says....

How do you know??

Because a) Hosty never said that this referred to two other rifles, Fritz said that it was "two other gentlemen" and both Truly and Caster confirm that there were only 2 rifles --  a Remington single-shot, .22 rifle, and .30-06 sporterized Mauser.

To which your reply will be that everybody is a "damned liar" except you, because you fabricated a story about what a handwritten note means with zero to corroborate your interpretation.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2018, 11:37:45 PM
Because a) Hosty never said that this referred to two other rifles, Fritz said that it was "two other gentlemen" and both Truly and Caster confirm that there were only 2 rifles --  a Remington single-shot, .22 rifle, and .30-06 sporterized Mauser.

To which your reply will be that everybody is a "damned liar" except you, because you fabricated a story about what a handwritten note means with zero to corroborate your interpretation.

Truly and Caster confirm that there were only 2 rifles --  a Remington single-shot, .22 rifle, and .30-06 sporterized Mauser.

Did they both pass a lie detector test?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
Truly and Caster confirm that there were only 2 rifles --  a Remington single-shot, .22 rifle, and .30-06 sporterized Mauser.

Did they both pass a lie detector test?

Did you?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 31, 2018, 12:04:10 AM
Did you?

Why would I even need to take a lie detector test?   I merely quoted what FBI agent Hosty wrote
which is...."Mr Truly had rifle and two others"...

Any rational person can read that and know that I am not lying.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 31, 2018, 09:25:21 PM
Don't agree that what you call the inverted caret is written i darker ink, and how do you know it was written in later?

Looks all the world as though he was writing "and".

Ray, I agree its a poorly formed "and" and similar to other such notations Hosty used for "and".  For me the significance of this note s that Truly ha Oswald's rifle and 2 other rifles that were not Oswald's rifles on the 1st floor outside his office
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 31, 2018, 09:27:04 PM
Ray, I agree its a poorly formed "and" and similar to other such notations Hosty used for "and".  For me the significance of this note s that Truly ha Oswald's rifle and 2 other rifles that were not Oswald's rifles on the 1st floor outside his office

Whats the betting that one of the other 2 rifles was a Mauser?
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 31, 2018, 09:31:58 PM
Whats the betting that one of the other 2 rifles was a Mauser?

That seems to be a fact.....Both Truly and Caster said one of the rifles was a mauser.....
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 31, 2018, 09:36:52 PM
Both Truly and Caster said there were only 2 rifles.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 31, 2018, 09:59:07 PM
Truly and Dougherty were involved in the plot.  The TSBD building was part of the plot via its owner Mr Bird.  Truly was conveniently ready to meet the first officers that ran to the TSBD entrance his job to confirm any assassin(s) were staff.  He called up the lift shaft for the lift to be sent down but Dougherty kept it at the 5th Floor causing them to run up the stairs and taking longer to get to the 6th Floor.  However, on reaching the 5th Truly and Baker got the lift but Truly took him to the roof further delaying reaching where the "shooters" were.

Oswald having seen his rifle in the TSBD earlier took it before it could be planted and hid it within the TSBD.  That's why the mauser was hidden on the 6th Floor and no MC rifle initially.  They found the MC after a more thorough search.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 01, 2018, 10:20:28 PM
Fruitcake alert.

Cite me evidence that says that can't be true bearing in Mind Truly and Dougherty are not reliable (being polite)
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 03, 2018, 05:23:05 PM
Truly and Dougherty were involved in the plot.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
The TSBD building was part of the plot via its owner Mr Bird.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
Truly was conveniently ready to meet the first officers that ran to the TSBD entrance his job to confirm any assassin(s) were staff.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
He called up the lift shaft for the lift to be sent down but Dougherty kept it at the 5th Floor causing them to run up the stairs and taking longer to get to the 6th Floor.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
However, on reaching the 5th Truly and Baker got the lift but Truly took him to the roof further delaying reaching where the "shooters" were.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
Oswald having seen his rifle in the TSBD earlier took it before it could be planted and hid it within the TSBD.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
That's why the mauser was hidden on the 6th Floor and no MC rifle initially.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
They found the MC after a more thorough search.
They found the damn thing in 20 minutes.

You take pride in typing this trash? Brilliant!

Mr Logan....Perhaps you can produce something constructive.....by telling us the significance of all those red rings in the upper floor windows of the TSBD.
Title: Re: Green Beans, Peas and Inverted Carets
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 03, 2018, 07:13:16 PM
Truly and Dougherty were involved in the plot.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
The TSBD building was part of the plot via its owner Mr Bird.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
Truly was conveniently ready to meet the first officers that ran to the TSBD entrance his job to confirm any assassin(s) were staff.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
He called up the lift shaft for the lift to be sent down but Dougherty kept it at the 5th Floor causing them to run up the stairs and taking longer to get to the 6th Floor.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
However, on reaching the 5th Truly and Baker got the lift but Truly took him to the roof further delaying reaching where the "shooters" were.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
Oswald having seen his rifle in the TSBD earlier took it before it could be planted and hid it within the TSBD.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
That's why the mauser was hidden on the 6th Floor and no MC rifle initially.
Not a fact, pure trash on your part.
They found the MC after a more thorough search.
They found the damn thing in 20 minutes.

You take pride in typing this trash? Brilliant!

Haha just as I thought you can't cite any evidence.  Probably can't even spell the word.