JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Rob Caprio on December 18, 2018, 06:03:34 PM
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https://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0331b.htm
Who was this man depicted in Commission Exhibit 237? Initially it was claimed to be Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City, Mexico, but we can clearly see that it is not him.
So who is it? And why was it claimed that it was LHO? Furthermore, why was Michael Paine asked if he knew the man in CE 237? And why did Michael Paine think he could have worked at Bell Helicopter?
Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the individual?
Mr. PAINE - I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person., but he could work at Bell.
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https://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0331b.htm
Who was this man depicted in Commission Exhibit 237? Initially it was claimed to be Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City, Mexico, but we can clearly see that it is not him.
So who is it? And why was it claimed that it was LHO? Furthermore, why was Michael Paine asked if he knew the man in CE 237? And why did Michael Paine think he could have worked at Bell Helicopter?
Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the individual?
Mr. PAINE - I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person., but he could work at Bell.
Rob,
That man (the "Mexico City Mystery Man") is an unknown man who was reported to have been in Mexico City for two or three weeks (last photographed on the 14th, iirc), and to have visited the Cuban and Soviet consulates several times while there.
To my knowledge, he was first photographed leaving the Cuban Consulate on Wednesday, October 2, and Anne Goodpasture, evidently not having a photo of Oswald but desperately needing one of some American-looking guy / any American-looking guy at said consulate on-or-around Tuesday, October 1 (when Oswald, or more likely a Russian impersonator of Oswald, made a call from an unknown location outside the consulate to triple-agent/Soviet Embassy security guard Ivan Obyedkov, who oh-so conveniently "volunteered" the radioactive name "Kostikov" to "Oswald" over a Soviet Embassy phone line that the KGB must have suspected was tapped by CIA) in order to "attach" it to Oswald's name (perhaps even as a marked card) in a mole-hunting cable, so she chose this guy's photo since it was the nearest one to Tuesday, October 1 that she had access to.
-- Tommy :)
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Rob,
That man (the "Mexico City Mystery Man") is an unknown man who was reported to have been in Mexico City for two or three weeks (last photographed on the 14th, iirc), and to have visited the Cuban and Soviet consulates several times while there.
He was first photographed leaving the Cuban Consulate on Wednesday, October 2, and Anne Goodpasture, evidently not having a photo of Oswald but desperately needing one of some American-looking guy / any American-looking guy at said consulate on-or-around Tuesday, October 1 (when Oswald, or more likely a Russian impersonator of Oswald made a call from an unknown location outside the consulate to triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov -- who conveniently volunteered the radioactive name "Kostikov" to Oswald -- at the Soviet Embassy) to attach to Oswald's name in a mole-hunting cable, so she chose this guy's photo since it was the nearest Tuesday, October 1 that she had access to.
-- Tommy :)
Oleg Nechiporenko, the KGB/Soviet Embassy officer who along with two other Soviet agents met Oswald when the latter visited seeking a visa, said the man was an American who had visited the Embassy several times over the previous weeks seeking a visa or asylum (I can't recall which) and was considered an oddball. Both Kostikov and Nechiporenko said they would try to hand off these oddball characters who visited the Embassy to one another.
I believe the photo was taken outside the Soviet Embassy not the Cuban consulate. Reportedly, Goodpasture reviewed the photos taken of individuals outside the Embassy on Tuesday, had heard that Oswald had phoned the Embassy that Tuesday, and erroneously thought one of the photos was Oswald.
I have never heard that he visited the Cuban consulate as well.
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Oleg Nechiporenko, the KGB/Soviet Embassy officer who along with two other Soviet agents met Oswald when the latter visited seeking a visa, said the man was an American who had visited the Embassy several times over the previous weeks seeking a visa or asylum (I can't recall which) and was considered an oddball. Both Kostikov and Nechiporenko said they would try to hand off these oddball characters who visited the Embassy to one another.
I believe the photo was taken outside the Soviet Embassy not the Cuban consulate. Reportedly, Goodpasture reviewed the photos taken of individuals outside the Embassy on Tuesday, had heard that Oswald had phoned the Embassy that Tuesday, and erroneously thought one of the photos was Oswald.
I have never heard that he visited the Cuban consulate as well.
Steve,
Nechiporenko might be telling the truth here, but why believe Nechiporenko about anything?
Because he tells you what you want to hear?
Two separate questions:
1) Do you believe Yuri Nosenko was a true defector?
2) How about Aleksei Kulak (Hoover's beloved and shielded-from-the-CIA "Fedora")? Was he a true double-agent, secretly working for the U.S.?
LOL
-- Tommy :)
PS I was going from memory on which consulates M.C.M.M. had visited.
PPS "Reportedly" by whom?
PPPS Here he is at the Cuban Embassy on October 15.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4172&relPageId=65
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Rob,
That man (the "Mexico City Mystery Man") is an unknown man who was reported to have been in Mexico City for two or three weeks (last photographed on the 14th, iirc), and to have visited the Cuban and Soviet consulates several times while there.
To my knowledge, he was first photographed leaving the Cuban Consulate on Wednesday, October 2, and Anne Goodpasture, evidently not having a photo of Oswald but desperately needing one of some American-looking guy / any American-looking guy at said consulate on-or-around Tuesday, October 1 (when Oswald, or more likely a Russian impersonator of Oswald, made a call from an unknown location outside the consulate to triple-agent/Soviet Embassy security guard Ivan Obyedkov, who oh-so conveniently "volunteered" the radioactive name "Kostikov" to "Oswald" over a Soviet Embassy phone line that the KGB must have suspected was tapped by CIA) in order to "attach" it to Oswald's name (perhaps even as a marked card) in a mole-hunting cable, so she chose this guy's photo since it was the nearest one to Tuesday, October 1 that she had access to.
-- Tommy :)
He looks like Jim Hicks to me. Richard Case Nagell said that the man was Johnny Devereaux and he was with the CIA.
Why did the WC think that Michael Paine might know him?
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He looks like Jim Hicks to me. Richard Case Nagell said that the man was Johnny Devereaux and he was with the CIA.
Why did the WC think that Michael Paine might know him?
Rob,
If you already believe he's Jim Hicks, why did you start this thread?
-- Tommy :)
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The big guy in the foreground bears resemblance to 'Mexico City Oswald'
(http://spartacus-educational.com/DPD15.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRZoimlUYnfp250Ur9ti4XVKey9ZHLnotaU_zUc3G627__r5a4LA) (http://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-7-1158836946.jpg)
The lump on the wrist of Roscoe White looks just like the wrist of the guy in the BY photos.
(https://i.gifer.com/HFft.gif)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/MTGZshTM/oswaldmexico2-zpse0c1b033.jpg)
JohnM
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https://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0331b.htm
Who was this man depicted in Commission Exhibit 237? Initially it was claimed to be Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City, Mexico, but we can clearly see that it is not him.
So who is it? And why was it claimed that it was LHO? Furthermore, why was Michael Paine asked if he knew the man in CE 237? And why did Michael Paine think he could have worked at Bell Helicopter?
Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the individual?
Mr. PAINE - I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person., but he could work at Bell.
Rob,
If Mexico City Mystery Man was an evil, evil, evil CIA guy, or an evil, evil, evil Bell Helicopter employee involved in the assassination of JFK, why in the world did the evil, evil, evil CIA release those eleven photos of him to the public?
Why not just withhold them and say the dog ate them?
Regardless, seein' as how the photos of him have been seen by millions of Americans now, don't you think it's strange that nobody has come forward and said, "Hey! That's my uncle Earl!"?
Or do you figure that the evil, evil, evil CIA killed or co-opted the dude's whole family, and all of his friends and colleagues, too?
-- Tommy :)
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Steve,
Nechiporenko might be telling the truth here, but why believe Nechiporenko about anything?
Because he tells you what you want to hear?
Two separate questions:
1) Do you believe Yuri Nosenko was a true defector?
2) How about Aleksei Kulak (Hoover's beloved and shielded-from-the-CIA "Fedora")? Was he a true double-agent, secretly working for the U.S.?
LOL
-- Tommy :)
PS I was going from memory on which consulates M.C.M.M. had visited.
PPS "Reportedly" by whom?
PPPS Here he is at the Cuban Embassy on October 15.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4172&relPageId=65
Who said I uncritically believed Nechiporenko? He's been interviewed numerous times, most specifically by the PBS Frontline show "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald." In fact, all three former KGB agents who met Oswald were interviewed.
There's no reason for Nechiporenko to lie. I believe Kostikov, who is now dead, also said the same thing. All three agents - Nechiporenko, Kostikov and Yatsov - were shown the photos and all said the man did not identify himself as Oswald. They all said the "Oswald" they met was the one arrested for shooting JFK.
What is he saying that "I believe"? I quoted him saying the man in the photo was an American who had visited the embassy several times and was considered an oddball.
The CIA concluded that Nosenko was a genuine defector. KGB files and interviews with former KGB agents support their conclusion. Mailer interviewed over a dozen KGB agents who handled Oswald and they supported Nosenko's claims. That is, among other things, that Oswald was not (corrected) used by the KGB for intelligence purposes and was deemed not to have the aptitude or makeup to be an American intelligence agent. In fact, they were glad to get rid of him since they viewed him as a nuisance.
As to Kulak: I have no knowledge about the man or his bona fides.
As to the man visiting the Cuban embassy: thanks, that was on October 15 or about two weeks after Oswald left MC.
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Who said I uncritically believed Nechiporenko? He's been interviewed numerous times, most specifically by the PBS Frontline show "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald." In fact, all three former KGB agents who met Oswald were interviewed.
There's no reason for Nechiporenko to lie. I believe Kostikov, who is now dead, also said the same thing. All three agents - Nechiporenko, Kostikov and Yatsov - were shown the photos and all said the man did not identify himself as Oswald. They all said the "Oswald" they met was the one arrested for shooting JFK.
What is he saying that "I believe"? I quoted him saying the man in the photo was an American who had visited the embassy several times and was considered an oddball.
The CIA concluded that Nosenko was a genuine defector. KGB files and interviews with former KGB agents support their conclusion. Mailer interviewed over a dozen KGB agents who handled Oswald and they supported Nosenko's claims. That is, among other things, that Oswald was used by the KGB for intelligence purposes and was deemed not to have the aptitude or makeup to be an American intelligence agent. In fact, they were glad to get rid of him since they viewed him as a nuisance.
As to Kulak: I have no knowledge about the man or his bona fides.
As to the man visiting the Cuban embassy: thanks, that was on October 15 or about two weeks after Oswald left MC.
Steve,
Regarding false-defector Yuri Nosenko, you need to read Tennent H Bagley's 2007 book "Spy Wars" (free-to-read on the Internet), or at least watch Professor John M. Newman's (you've heard of him, right?) two-part youtube "Spy Wars" presentation from March of this year.
You really do.
-- Thomas :)
PS But for now, why don't you just read this 35-page pdf to find out how it was that Richard Helms, mistakenly and out of shear frustration, came to declare Nosenko a true defector? (It's free, Steve. Just click on "full article.)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
Steve Galbraith: "There's no reason for Nechiporenko to lie."
LOL
PS Have you ever considered the possibility that neither Lee Harvey Oswald nor any of his alleged 5,000 doppelgangers went to Mexico City, Steve, or at least not to the Soviet Consulate there?
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Steve Galbraith wrote:
Who said I uncritically believed Nechiporenko? He's been interviewed numerous times, most specifically by the PBS Frontline show "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald." In fact, all three former KGB agents who met Oswald were interviewed.
There's no reason for Nechiporenko to lie. I believe Kostikov, who is now dead, also said the same thing. All three agents - Nechiporenko, Kostikov and Yatsov - were shown the photos and all said the man did not identify himself as Oswald. They all said the "Oswald" they met was the one arrested for shooting JFK.
What is he saying that "I believe"? I quoted him saying the man in the photo was an American who had visited the embassy several times and was considered an oddball.
The CIA concluded that Nosenko was a genuine defector. KGB files and interviews with former KGB agents support their conclusion. Mailer interviewed over a dozen KGB agents who handled Oswald and they supported Nosenko's claims. That is, among other things, that Oswald was used by the KGB for intelligence purposes and was deemed not to have the aptitude or makeup to be an American intelligence agent. In fact, they were glad to get rid of him since they viewed him as a nuisance.
As to Kulak: I have no knowledge about the man or his bona fides.
Steve,
Regarding false-defector Yuri Nosenko, you need to read Tennent H Bagley's 2007 book "Spy Wars" (free-to-read on the Internet), or at least watch Professor John M. Newman's (you've heard of him, right?) two-part youtube "Spy Wars" presentation from March of this year.
You really do.
-- Thomas :)
PS But for now, why don't you just read the first five pages or so (including the part called "The McCoy Intervention") of this 35-page pdf to find out how it was that Richard Helms, mistakenly and out of shear frustration, came to declare Nosenko a true defector? (It's free, Steve. Just click on "full article.)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
Steve Galbraith: "There's no reason for Nechiporenko to lie."
LOL
PS Have you ever considered the possibility that neither Lee Harvey Oswald nor any of his alleged 5,000 doppelgangers went to Mexico City, Steve, or at least not to the Soviet Consulate there?
Edit:
If anyone reading this thread is tempted to post John Hart's "The Monster Plot" for me, or any such KGB-influenced, brainwashed-or worse CIA propaganda, don't waste your time. I've already read all of them. The problem is, as far as I can tell none of YOU have read Bagley's "Spy Wars," yet, even though it's free-to-read on the Internet...
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3
PS. Why would anybody trust "retired" (but still living in Russia and apparently still collaborating) KGB officers Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and "short, blond, 35ish, blue-eyed, suit-wearing, very thin-faced" Nikolai Leonov (who famously said in the 1990s that an emotional, revolver-packing Lee Harvey Oswald showed up at the Soviet *Embassy* on *Sunday*, September 29, and that he met with him *one-on-one* there)?
LOL
--Tommy :)