JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Rob Caprio on December 06, 2018, 05:09:27 PM

Title: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Rob Caprio on December 06, 2018, 05:09:27 PM
Secret Service (SS) Agent Clint Hill said this about what he heard as he approached the limousine from the follow-up car.

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

SS Agent Hill said he heard a sound similar to shooting a REVOLVER into a hard object. It seems Hill would receive support from a professional person on this verdict. His name was Dr. Charles Wilber and he was the medical examiner (that means he was a forensic pathologist) for Larimer County, Colorado. He would write a book called The Medico-Legal Investigation of the Late President John F. Kennedy Murder in 1978. Here is an excerpt from that book that agrees with Hill?s assessment of the noise he heard.

Quote on

Interpretation of the fatal head wound by several attending surgeons suggested a high velocity HAND GUN bullet fired at close range [as the cause of death]. (Dr. Charles Wilber, The Medico-Legal Investigation of the Late President John F. Kennedy Murder, 1978, p. 296)

Quote off

It seems the notion of JFK being shot up close with a pistol is not dead after all. The evidence of Agent Hill should have given the WC pause, but as usual they just ignored it.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Royell Storing on December 06, 2018, 05:23:49 PM
    It would help if we Knew: (1) the general hearing ability of SA Hill on 11/22/63, or (2) did he have a cold that day impacting his hearing, etc. The overwhelming majority of eyewitnesses to the assassination gave testimony as to their Hearing from what direction shot(s) were fired. The crack WC attorney's almost Never asked about the hearing ability/possible disability of these same eye/ear witnesses.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Bill Chapman on December 06, 2018, 05:50:35 PM
Secret Service (SS) Agent Clint Hill said this about what he heard as he approached the limousine from the follow-up car.

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

SS Agent Hill said he heard a sound similar to shooting a REVOLVER into a hard object. It seems Hill would receive support from a professional person on this verdict. His name was Dr. Charles Wilber and he was the medical examiner (that means he was a forensic pathologist) for Larimer County, Colorado. He would write a book called The Medico-Legal Investigation of the Late President John F. Kennedy Murder in 1978. Here is an excerpt from that book that agrees with Hill?s assessment of the noise he heard.

Quote on

Interpretation of the fatal head wound by several attending surgeons suggested a high velocity HAND GUN bullet fired at close range [as the cause of death]. (Dr. Charles Wilber, The Medico-Legal Investigation of the Late President John F. Kennedy Murder, 1978, p. 296)

Quote off

It seems the notion of JFK being shot up close with a pistol is not dead after all. The evidence of Agent Hill should have given the WC pause, but as usual they just ignored it.

WTF are you talking about? Didn't you see the silver pistol in Greer's hand or the pistol disguised as a white glove in Jackie's? Or JBC turning around and shooting Kennedy from a gun implanted in his chest?

 8)
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 06, 2018, 06:29:30 PM

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/XP_100.jpg)

"The new (1962) revolutionary Remington XP-100 Fireball. It shoots faster, flatter, farther and tighter than any handgun in history. It can thread a needle at 150 yards. It also shoots frangible bullets that will blow the head off any POTUS." - James Files

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/JFK_temple_blowout2.jpg)

The circular "fireball" in JFK's head, right temple, was NOT sun reflected off of brain matter and was NOT caused by a FMJ bullet.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Richard Smith on December 06, 2018, 07:29:43 PM
WTF are you talking about? Didn't you see the silver pistol in Greer's hand or the pistol disguised as a white glove in Jackie's? Or JBC turning around and shooting Kennedy from a gun implanted in his chest?

 8)

Don't forget the possibility of suicide.  I eagerly await Rob's "supporting evidence" that he applies to any claim of Oswald's guilt.   Someone grounded in the facts and evidence with such a high level of subjective proof like Rob would never proffer the opinion of one person as a possible fact in this case.  Right?  Or is this where Rob tells us he is making no claim but we have to prove to his satisfaction that JFK was not killed with a pistol. 
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Rob Caprio on December 06, 2018, 11:19:53 PM
WTF are you talking about? Didn't you see the silver pistol in Greer's hand or the pistol disguised as a white glove in Jackie's? Or JBC turning around and shooting Kennedy from a gun implanted in his chest?

 8)

Are you having trouble reading and comprehending the evidence again?
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Rob Caprio on December 06, 2018, 11:23:17 PM
Don't forget the possibility of suicide.  I eagerly await Rob's "supporting evidence" that he applies to any claim of Oswald's guilt.   Someone grounded in the facts and evidence with such a high level of subjective proof like Rob would never proffer the opinion of one person as a possible fact in this case.  Right?  Or is this where Rob tells us he is making no claim but we have to prove to his satisfaction that JFK was not killed with a pistol.

Where is my opinion? I cited evidence and both you and Bill have ignored it and instead have made it about me. Typical.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Bill Chapman on December 07, 2018, 01:47:00 AM
Don't forget the possibility of suicide.  I eagerly await Rob's "supporting evidence" that he applies to any claim of Oswald's guilt.   Someone grounded in the facts and evidence with such a high level of subjective proof like Rob would never proffer the opinion of one person as a possible fact in this case.  Right?  Or is this where Rob tells us he is making no claim but we have to prove to his satisfaction that JFK was not killed with a pistol.

Files, for one, must have used a real magic bullet since he was in Chicago at the time of the shooting, despite his protests that he had a twin 'bro there... a little gem that his sister promptly debunked (if I recall correctly).

Or perhaps he solved QM to the point of being in two locations at once, along with  immediately disappearing.

In fact Oswald seems have improved on that by being upstairs/downstairs/front steps/loading dock simultaneously.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Richard Smith on December 07, 2018, 06:58:51 PM
Where is my opinion? I cited evidence and both you and Bill have ignored it and instead have made it about me. Typical.

But where is your "supporting evidence"?  Isn't that the endless song and dance game you play with any evidence of Oswald's guilt?  So prove to my subjective standard that JFK was shot with a pistol or you are "sunk."
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Greg Bonkowski on December 07, 2018, 09:44:17 PM
No.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Rob Caprio on December 08, 2018, 05:24:43 AM
But where is your "supporting evidence"?  Isn't that the endless song and dance game you play with any evidence of Oswald's guilt?  So prove to my subjective standard that JFK was shot with a pistol or you are "sunk."

My evidence is in the OP. You have ignored it and gone on several rants about me instead. Why does the actual evidence scare you so much?
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 08, 2018, 05:08:19 PM
Secret Service (SS) Agent Clint Hill said this about what he heard as he approached the limousine from the follow-up car.

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

SS Agent Hill said he heard a sound similar to shooting a REVOLVER into a hard object. It seems Hill would receive support from a professional person on this verdict. His name was Dr. Charles Wilber and he was the medical examiner (that means he was a forensic pathologist) for Larimer County, Colorado. He would write a book called The Medico-Legal Investigation of the Late President John F. Kennedy Murder in 1978. Here is an excerpt from that book that agrees with Hill?s assessment of the noise he heard.

Quote on

Interpretation of the fatal head wound by several attending surgeons suggested a high velocity HAND GUN bullet fired at close range [as the cause of death]. (Dr. Charles Wilber, The Medico-Legal Investigation of the Late President John F. Kennedy Murder, 1978, p. 296)

Quote off

It seems the notion of JFK being shot up close with a pistol is not dead after all. The evidence of Agent Hill should have given the WC pause, but as usual they just ignored it.

I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object[/b][/color]--it seemed to have some type of an echo.

Hill's description of the sounds he heard are a bit ambiguous .....  I don't know why he would think that the sound of a revolver being fired into a hard object would be any different than a rifle being fired into a hard object...

Depending on the revolver and the rifle  involved one could sound just like the other....

IMO, Hill had heard a large caliber revolver bullet strike some hard object prior to the assassination, and was relating the sound he heard at the prior time, to the sound he heard when he was climbing aboard the Lincoln.

I've heard bullets strike plywood and they create a sharp bang when they strike....  I've also head the slap of a bullet striking flesh and that sound is more of a snap or slap than a bang.... I would guess that the sound of a bullet striking a skull would be a loud smack...Neither a bang nor a slap....

At any rate, I seriously doubt that a person could determine if the bullet had been fired from a revolver, or a rifle, simply by hearing the sound.

Now then, having said that, I do believe there is a distinct possibility that a pistol could have been one of the weapons that was fired at JFK that day....
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Royell Storing on December 08, 2018, 08:12:01 PM
I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object[/b][/color]--it seemed to have some type of an echo.

Hill's description of the sounds he heard are a bit ambiguous .....  I don't know why he would think that the sound of a revolver being fired into a hard object would be any different than a rifle being fired into a hard object...

Depending on the revolver and the rifle  involved one could sound just like the other....

IMO, Hill had heard a large caliber revolver bullet strike some hard object prior to the assassination and was relating the sound he heard at the prior time to the sound he heard when he was climbing aboard the Lincoln.

I've heard bullets strike plywood and they create a sharp bang when they strike....  I've also head the slap of a bullet striking flesh and that sound is more of a snap or slap than a bang.... I would guess that the sound of a bullet striking a skull would be a loud smack...Neither a bang nor a slap....

At any rate I seriously doubt that a person could determine if the bullet had been fired from a revolver, or a rifle simply by hearing the sound.

Now then having said that I do believe there is a distinct possibility that a pistol could have been one of the weapons that was fired at JFK that day....

   SS Agents such as Hill carry & use a hand gun/revolver. He would be Very familiar with the sound of a bullet being fired from a Revolver.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 08, 2018, 09:36:10 PM
   SS Agents such as Hill carry & use a hand gun/revolver. He would be Very familiar with the sound of a bullet being fired from a Revolver.

Hill was referring to the sound of the BULLET striking the skull.... Not the gun being fired.

Clint Hill said ..."it seemed to have some type of an echo".

I believe Hill was describing the sound of the bullet impact followed immediately by the muzzle blast ( due to the speed of sound ) Hill would probably have heard the bullet impact first and then the sound of the gun being fired.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Richard Smith on December 08, 2018, 10:04:17 PM
My evidence is in the OP. You have ignored it and gone on several rants about me instead. Why does the actual evidence scare you so much?

Where is your "supporting evidence?"  You are sunk.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Steve Howsley on December 08, 2018, 10:35:44 PM
Hill would probably have heard the bullet impact first and then the sound of the gun being fired.

Correct. He would also have heard the echo of the rifle blast from the hard surfaces around the plaza particularly the pergola to his right and the overpass ahead. Even the sound bouncing from the buildings on his far left would have reached his ears as part of a wall of sound arriving so close together it would have been impossible to distinguish their order. I doubt Hill would have heard the impact on the skull if he'd not moved much closer to the POTUS. That sound would have been lost in the cacophony of the other sounds. It was his closeness to Kennedy that made the combined head impact and rifle blast sound different and distinguishable creating a 'new' sound different from an earlier shot(s).

I think people sometimes forget that the witnesses only got one chance to absorb what their senses detected. We can read books over and over trying to pry open hidden secrets but Hill and others had just one chance. Everything else is hindsight to them.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 09, 2018, 12:39:50 AM
Correct. He would also have heard the echo of the rifle blast from the hard surfaces around the plaza particularly the pergola to his right and the overpass ahead. Even the sound bouncing from the buildings on his far left would have reached his ears as part of a wall of sound arriving so close together it would have been impossible to distinguish their order. I doubt Hill would have heard the impact on the skull if he'd not moved much closer to the POTUS. That sound would have been lost in the cacophony of the other sounds. It was his closeness to Kennedy that made the combined head impact and rifle blast sound different and distinguishable creating a 'new' sound different from an earlier shot(s).

I think people sometimes forget that the witnesses only got one chance to absorb what their senses detected. We can read books over and over trying to pry open hidden secrets but Hill and others had just one chance. Everything else is hindsight to them.

The point is:....  Even though Clint Hill mentioned a revolver there is no way that he could know that the sounds he heard were the result of a revolver shot.   He may have guessed right, but it was still just a guess, and he was comparing the sounds to some sounds that he had heard previously and he knew that those sounds were created by a revolver.   

Bottom line....A bullet impact bang is the same whether it is fired from a rifle or a revolver.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Rob Caprio on December 11, 2018, 05:00:19 AM
Where is your "supporting evidence?"  You are sunk.

I asked a QUESTION based off of evidence. You're failure to either read or comprehend the evidence presented isn't my problem.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Richard Smith on December 11, 2018, 01:47:06 PM
I asked a QUESTION based off of evidence. You're failure to either read or comprehend the evidence presented isn't my problem.

Thanks for confirming that you have no evidence.  You are sunk.   
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 11, 2018, 07:16:19 PM
Hill was referring to the sound of the BULLET striking the skull.... Not the gun being fired.

Clint Hill said ..."it seemed to have some type of an echo".

I believe Hill was describing the sound of the bullet impact followed immediately by the muzzle blast ( due to the speed of sound ) Hill would probably have heard the bullet impact first and then the sound of the gun being fired.

There is also a very distinct possibility that the sounds that Clint hill heard were the sound of a bullet hitting the chrome molding above the rear view mirror.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Royell Storing on December 12, 2018, 07:42:58 PM
   SA Hill referenced an "echo" to the sound. Perhaps the "echo" is actually 2 different almost simultaneous shots striking home. The sudden almost simultaneous sounds of 2 strikes + 2 shots being fired would be very confusing to the ears.
Title: Re: Was JFK Killed By A Handgun?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 12, 2018, 08:15:04 PM
   SA Hill referenced an "echo" to the sound. Perhaps the "echo" is actually 2 different almost simultaneous shots striking home. The sudden almost simultaneous sounds of 2 strikes + 2 shots being fired would be very confusing to the ears.

 Perhaps the "echo" is actually 2 different almost simultaneous shots striking home.

That's possible, Royell...  But of course you realize that two shots that were very closely spaced would eliminate LBJ's "Special Committee's theory....  because a carcano cannot be fired that rapidly.