JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Walt Cakebread on December 06, 2018, 02:09:52 PM
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That's the way the opening sentence of J.E.Hoover's letter to LBJ should read...Because on Sunday November 24, 1963 immediately after the murder of Lee Oswald NO solid evidence had been developed that linked Lee Oswald to the murder of JFK.
But that fact wasn't even considered by Hoover....when he wrote ..." The thing I am concerned about is having something issued so that we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin"
On Sunday November 24, 1963 no evidence had been developed in which Hoover could have concluded that Lee Oswald was the "real assassin". No finger prints had been found on the alleged murder weapon, the rifle had not been fired to create bullets for ballistic comparison ( It was thought to be unsafe because of the condition of the barrel) So hoover couldn't have known if the carcano was in fact the murder weapon.
However, The clairvoyant J.Edgar Hoover had concluded that Lee Oswald was guilty, and he wanted LBJ to issue something so that "we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin"[/i]
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That's the way the opening sentence of J.E.Hoover's letter to LBJ should read...Because on Sunday November 24, 1963 immediately after the murder of Lee Oswald NO solid evidence had been developed that linked Lee Oswald to the murder of JFK.
But that fact wasn't even considered by Hoover....when he wrote ..." The thing I am concerned about is having something issued so that we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin"
On Sunday November 23, 1963 no evidence had been developed in which Hoover could have concluded that Lee Oswald was the "real assassin". No finger prints had been found on the alleged murder weapon, the rifle had not been fired to create bullets for ballistic comparison ( It was thought to be unsafe because of the condition of the barrel) So hoover couldn't have known if the carcano was in fact the murder weapon.
However, The clairvoyant J.Edgar Hoover had concluded that Lee Oswald was guilty, and he wanted LBJ to issue something so that "we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin"[/i]
One day after the assassination and they hadn't yet fired the rifle. BFD.
Frazier testified that the rifle was (later) fired 60 times by himself and FBI testers.
At that early stage, rumours were the order of the day and kept changing as new information, rumour or not, came in. For instance someone broadcasted that the shooter was on the loose and armed with a rifle LOL
Well, the shooter was on the loose all right, but armed only with his delusions of grandeur, I'm afraid.
You lot want the entire assassination to be decided based on first day information
Investigations to you brainiacs are just 'excuses'
You lot are as children.
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Silly. What difference does the status of the investigation within two days of the assassination matter over fifty years later? But even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene. He had lied about and provided no explanation for it. Oswald was a known political kook. He carried a long package that morning, fled the TSBD within minutes, and was involved in the murder of a police officer less than an hour after the assassination. His guilt was a slam dunk then. And it is a slam dunk now.
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One day after the assassination and they hadn't yet fired the rifle. BFD.
Frazier testified that the rifle was (later) fired 60 times by himself and FBI testers.
At that early stage, rumours were the order of the day and kept changing as new information, rumour or not, came in. For instance someone broadcasted that the shooter was on the loose and armed with a rifle LOL
Well, the shooter was on the loose all right, but armed only with his delusions of grandeur, I'm afraid.
You lot want the entire assassination to be decided based on first day information
Investigations to you brainiacs are just 'excuses'
You lot are as children.
You lot want the entire assassination to be decided based on first day information
Investigations to you brainiacs are just 'excuses'
You've got that backwards. It was Hoover who decided the assassination on day 1 when he concluded that LHO was the lone gunman.
You lot are as children.
I take that by making such a comment you feel you are acting as a grown up, right?
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Silly. What difference does the status of the investigation within two days of the assassination matter over fifty years later? But even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene. He had lied about and provided no explanation for it. Oswald was a known political kook. He carried a long package that morning, fled the TSBD within minutes, and was involved in the murder of a police officer less than an hour after the assassination. His guilt was a slam dunk then. And it is a slam dunk now.
His guilt was a slam dunk then. And it is a slam dunk now.
If you keep telling this to yourself often enough, I am sure the day will come when you actually believe it.
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Silly. What difference does the status of the investigation within two days of the assassination matter over fifty years later? But even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene. He had lied about and provided no explanation for it. Oswald was a known political kook. He carried a long package that morning, fled the TSBD within minutes, and was involved in the murder of a police officer less than an hour after the assassination. His guilt was a slam dunk then. And it is a slam dunk now.
even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene.
Oh really, and HOW?? had they determined that the carcano was owned by Lee Oswald?? Lee said that he didn't own a rifle. Just HOW?? had they determined that he owned the carcano that was found carefully hidden beneath pallets of boxes of books?
He carried a long package that morning,
Perhaps he did carry a paper sack, but the witnesses who saw the sack swore under oath that it was too short to have contained the carcano even in the disassembled state. And Frazier swore that the paper of the sack that Lee carried was LIGHT WEIGHT crinkly paper, and not at all like the heavy weight paper of the sack that the police said they found beneath the SE corner window.
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Silly. What difference does the status of the investigation within two days of the assassination matter over fifty years later? But even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene. He had lied about and provided no explanation for it. Oswald was a known political kook. He carried a long package that morning, fled the TSBD within minutes, and was involved in the murder of a police officer less than an hour after the assassination. His guilt was a slam dunk then. And it is a slam dunk now.
In addition, Dirty Harvey was observed as being rather 'Johnny-on-the-spot', if you will, at both murder scenes; the only person on earth that can lay claim to that somewhat dubious achievement.
Not that I'm going to want to assess him as guilty based solely on his rather fortuitous 'global positioning' that day, but that little gem would arguably serve the prosecution's opening statement rather well, I reckon.
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Fifty-five years later there still is NO supporting evidence for the official theory.
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You lot want the entire assassination to be decided based on first day information
Investigations to you brainiacs are just 'excuses'
You've got that backward. It was Hoover who decided the assssination on day 1 when he concluded that LHO was the lone gunman.
>>> That era was the height of The Cold War. Arguably, any first day statements Hoover made about the assassination were tempered by the need to calm public fears about any Russian involvement and the clear-and-present-danger of global nuclear war.
Slam dunk or not, Oswald remains the prime suspect some 55 years later
You lot are as children.
I take that by making such a comment you feel you are acting as a grown up, right?
>>> I'm 'forever young' according to my friends. Do tell us how your 'grownups' should 'act', barrister.
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Fifty-five years later there still is NO supporting evidence for the official theory.
Name one other person on the face of the earth who was present during both murders.
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You've got that backward. It was Hoover who decided the assssination on day 1 when he concluded that LHO was the lone gunman.
>>> That era was the height of The Cold War. Arguably, any first day statements Hoover made about the assassination were tempered by the need to calm public fears about any Russian involvement and the clear-and-present-danger of global nuclear war.
Slam dunk or not, Oswald remains the prime suspect some 55 years later
Hoover made no first day statements, at least not publicly. He just decided they had their man without having looked at a single piece of evidence.
Slam dunk or not, Oswald remains the prime suspect some 55 years later
That seems, for some reason that escapes me, to be extremely important to you?. You seem to have a lot of emotion invested in Oswald's guilt. One can only wonder why?.. It's not like you knew the guy personally, is it.
You lot are as children.
I take that by making such a comment you feel you are acting as a grown up, right?
>>> I'm 'forever young' according to my friends. Do tell us how your 'grownups' should 'act', barrister.
I'm 'forever young immature according to my friends.
There, I fixed it for you!
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Name one other person on the face of the earth who was present during both murders.
Instead of just assuming it, why don't you try and prove that one person was present at both murders!
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even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene.
Oh really HOW?? had they determined that the carcano was owned by Lee Oswald?? Lee said that he didn't own a rifle. Just HOW?? had they determined that he owned the carcano that was found carefully hidden beneath pallets of boxes of books?
He carried a long package that morning,
Perhaps he did carry a paper sack, but the witnesses who saw the sack swore under oath that it was too short to have contained the carcano even in the disassembled state. And Frazier swore that the paper of the sack that Lee carried was LIGHT WEIGHT crinkly paper, and not at all like the heavy weight paper of the sack that the police said they found beneath the SE corner window.
Are you really suggesting that it was suspicious or impossible for the FBI to link the rifle to Oswald within a couple of days because it was "carefully hidden" behind some boxes for about an hour before being found? Whew. The FBI found the records on the night of 11.22/23 that confirmed that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor was sent to Oswald's PO Box. It had the same serial number as the rifle found on the 6th floor. Oswald worked in that building. It didn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to reach this determination. They had the documents to prove it. I don't understand why anyone would suggest this couldn't have been done so quickly. Or why it matters how long it took.
Your nonsense about the bag is laughable. Oswald made an unexpected trip to the Paine house where his wife confirms he kept a rifle. Frazier confirms Oswald carried a long bag to work the next morning, but for some reason Oswald denies this. If it did not contain the rifle, then Oswald would seemingly have every incentive to admit to carrying a long bag and direct the police to it. Instead he lies. And his prints are found on such a bag. And his rifle is gone when the police check the garage on 11.22. In over fifty years no one has provided any explanation for his rifle not being there except as the one found in the TSBD as confirmed by the prints, serial number, documents, and known circumstances.
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Your nonsense about the bag is laughable.
As so is the endless reiteration of Agent Smith.
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As so is the endless reiteration of Agent Smith.
Sounds like a broken record, doesn't he?
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Are you really suggesting that it was suspicious or impossible for the FBI to link the rifle to Oswald within a couple of days because it was "carefully hidden" behind some boxes for about an hour before being found? Whew. The FBI found the records on the night of 11.22/23 that confirmed that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor was sent to Oswald's PO Box. It had the same serial number as the rifle found on the 6th floor. Oswald worked in that building. It didn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to reach this determination. They had the documents to prove it. I don't understand why anyone would suggest this couldn't have been done so quickly. Or why it matters how long it took.
Your nonsense about the bag is laughable. Oswald made an unexpected trip to the Paine house where his wife confirms he kept a rifle. Frazier confirms Oswald carried a long bag to work the next morning, but for some reason Oswald denies this. If it did not contain the rifle, then Oswald would seemingly have every incentive to admit to carrying a long bag and direct the police to it. Instead he lies. And his prints are found on such a bag. And his rifle is gone when the police check the garage on 11.22. In over fifty years no one has provided any explanation for his rifle not being there except as the one found in the TSBD as confirmed by the prints, serial number, documents, and known circumstances.
Are you really suggesting that it was suspicious or impossible for the FBI to link the rifle to Oswald within a couple of days because it was "carefully hidden" behind some boxes for about an hour before being found?
Of course not.... I should have realized that there would be readers who are of diminished reasoning ....
The problem is:... The rifle had not yet been fired by the FBI to create a bullet for ballistic comparison. So there was no way that hoover could have determined that the carefully hidden rifle was in fact the murder weapon.
Hoover already had the serial number of the mannlicher carcano that Klein's had sent the the PO box of a Marine turn coat, commie who he had under surveillance. Hoover knew that he could connect the rifle to Lee Oswald.
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Name one other person on the face of the earth who was present during both murders.
Don't have to and not doing so doesn't change my statement one iota.
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Are you really suggesting that it was suspicious or impossible for the FBI to link the rifle to Oswald within a couple of days because it was "carefully hidden" behind some boxes for about an hour before being found? Whew. The FBI found the records on the night of 11.22/23 that confirmed that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor was sent to Oswald's PO Box. It had the same serial number as the rifle found on the 6th floor. Oswald worked in that building. It didn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to reach this determination. They had the documents to prove it. I don't understand why anyone would suggest this couldn't have been done so quickly. Or why it matters how long it took.
Your nonsense about the bag is laughable. Oswald made an unexpected trip to the Paine house where his wife confirms he kept a rifle. Frazier confirms Oswald carried a long bag to work the next morning, but for some reason Oswald denies this. If it did not contain the rifle, then Oswald would seemingly have every incentive to admit to carrying a long bag and direct the police to it. Instead he lies. And his prints are found on such a bag. And his rifle is gone when the police check the garage on 11.22. In over fifty years no one has provided any explanation for his rifle not being there except as the one found in the TSBD as confirmed by the prints, serial number, documents, and known circumstances.
Says the guy who believes that an invisible bag is important somehow.
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Walt, Richard is posting in this thread because he practices an approach similar to mine. In your threads he sees an opportunity
to pick low hanging fruit. From experience he expects it is not difficult to challenge your claims because they do not evolve.
Silly. What difference does the status of the investigation within two days of the assassination matter over fifty years later? But even at that early point, they had found Oswald's rifle at the crime scene. He had lied about and provided no explanation for it. Oswald was a known political kook. He carried a long package that morning, fled the TSBD within minutes, and was involved in the murder of a police officer less than an hour after the assassination. His guilt was a slam dunk then. And it is a slam dunk now.
The Kennedy Assassination and the Current Political Moment
http://joanmellen.com/wordpress/speeches/the-kennedy-assassination-and-the-current-political-moment/
Talk at the 92nd Street Y,
JANUARY 28, 2007
THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION AND THE CURRENT POLITICAL MOMENT
by Joan Mellen
It happened going on forty-four years ago, and yet the murder of President Kennedy remains simultaneously a subject of fascination and yet is still taboo within mainstream discourse. You will not find a free exchange of views on the Kennedy assassination in the ?New York Times?....
??
This surprising invocation of the Kennedy assassination occurred on January 2 nd at the funeral of President Gerald Ford, the last surviving member of the Warren Commission. I?ll read this extraordinary revealing paragraph from George H. W. Bush?s eulogy for those who missed it:
?After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy, our nation turned to Gerald Ford and a select handful of others to make sense of that madness ? and a conspiracy theorist can say what they will ? but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this matter. Why? Because Gerry Ford put his name on it and Gerry Ford?s word was always good.?
Allow me to add that when amendments were offered to the Freedom of Information Act, enlarging public access to affairs of state, Gerald Ford vetoed the bill, only for Congress to override his veto. Ford was no more a supporter of the truth than Mr. Bush?s son. George H. W. Bush?s own word was not always so good either. There are powerful reasons why George H. W. Bush was motivated to invoke the Warren Report, even, amazingly, to refer to a ?conspiracy theorist,? as if that designation would at once banish some truths he does not want available. Only two degrees of separation separate George H. W. Bush from Oswald himself.
At his 1976 confirmation hearings for the post of Director of Central Intelligence, a post into which he was elevated by Gerald Ford, Bush denied that he had any prior connection to the CIA. This was a falsehood. At the National Archives, and on the Internet, is a CIA document directed to its clandestine service (Record Number 104-10310-10271) that reveals that when, in the 1950s, Bush founded Zapata Oil, his partner was one Thomas J. Devine, who was not only an oil wildcatter, but a long-time CIA staff employee. Thomas Devine?s name does not appear in the original papers of Zapata, but it does in the company Bush created shortly thereafter as ?Zapata Offshore.?
This CIA document reveals that Thomas Devine had informed George Bush of a CIA project with the cryptonym WUBRINY/LPDICTUM. It involved CIA proprietary commercial operations in foreign countries. By 1963, Devine had become not a former CIA employee, but ?a cleared and witting contact? in the investment banking firm which managed the proprietary corporation WUSALINE. WUBRINY involved Haitian operations, in which, the documents reveal, a participant was George de Mohrenshildt, the Dallas CIA hander of ? Lee Oswald......
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=12758&relPageId=2
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineBushAwareWubriny.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyRedacted.jpg)
Same, document in image below, less redacted than image above, following uncovered simply by using search word. NATTILY @maryferrell :
John Train papers, 1960-2003 Mss 0058
https://web.archive.org/web/20141008041825/http://academic.shu.edu/findingaids/mss0058.html
Seton Hall University
Biographical Note
The John Train Papers include personal and professional correspondence, ... in Costa Rica, and a tire-retreading company in Guinea before serving in the Army
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyUnredacted.jpg)
It turns out Joseph Dryer claimed he met with George DeM and Haitian banker Clemard Charles in NYC on same
day as CIA doc indicates Tom Devine did, April 25, 1963, just two weeks after the alleged attempt on the life of Edwin Walker.
Rochester Journal ? Dec 19, 1936
?In leading parts were Charles Boswell, Buddy Kitchen, Hawley Ward, Tom Devine. Julian Fitch, Martin Sher, Mike Mulligan, Peter Dryer,??
http://jfkforum.com
POSTED ON JULY 7, 2017
Something new here, we believe there is a gap to fill.
At this link, I have documented that in 1978 HSCA counsel asked Priscilla Johnson Macmillan why her book, ?Marina and Lee? was delayed at least a dozen years. See http://archive.is/esTuB
One excuse Priscilla offered was that she had experienced a bad period in which her father was a concealed suicide.
The last person reported to see Priscilla?s father Stuart alive and who reported him as missing to Locust Valley, LI police was James A. Thomas, a cousin of Allen Dulles whose sister Eleanor Lansing Thomas was maid of honor in Clover Dulles?s wedding.
?...The original 20 were classmates as long as grades K-9. Peter Dryer departed for Choate and Hawley Ward for St. Paul?s ?..
Meanwhile, in Concord, NH, Priscilla and Marina?s future book editor, MS Wyeth, gained a classmate and evidently Buz Wyeth and Hawley Ward became friends!
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineWyethHawleyWard.jpg)
Misadventures of a Fly Fisherman: My Life with and Without Papa
Jack Hemingway ? 1987
?I made contact with Joe Dryer and his brother, Peter, who was sharing digs with him in an apartment near the Malecon on the edge of old Havana. Their project sounded interesting, but there was no place in it for me..?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84&relPageId=64&search=cogswell_and%20palm
1. HSCA Report, Volume XII, pg 60
Found in: HSCA Appendix Volumes
broker in Palm Beach, Fla., had known George de Mohrenschildt in Haiti. The information came from Jack Cogswell of Palm Beach. According to Cogswell, he ran
with Loeb & Rhodes & Co. in Palm Beach and Dryer offered informa- tion about George de Mohrenschildt.(172) Dryer told Cogswell that when he knew de Mohrenshchildt
left Haiti in 1967. (175) Joseph Dryer
(http://jfkforum.com/images/MellenDryer.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=66972&relPageId=2&search=cogswell
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellAuntVeciana1966.jpg)
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In addition, Dirty Harvey was observed as being rather 'Johnny-on-the-spot', if you will, at both murder scenes; the only person on earth that can lay claim to that somewhat dubious achievement.
Not that I'm going to want to assess him as guilty based solely on his rather fortuitous 'global positioning' that day, but that little gem would arguably serve the prosecution's opening statement rather well, I reckon.
if you will, at both murder scenes; the only person on earth that can lay claim to that somewhat dubious achievement.
Chappie ol chum... I assume that you are referring to the murder scenes of JFK and JD Tippit.... I the first case, ( the JFK scene) Lee Oswald worked in the TSBD . I'm sure that even you will agree that the fact that he worked there is a solid legitimate reason to be at that site along with hundreds of other people who were at that site.
And as to the second murder scene site ( The Tippit site) Lee Oswald was NOT positively ID'ed as the man who shot JD Tippit..
As a matter of fact the person who was the closest to Tippit at the time he was murdered was Domingo Benevides...who was a solid, rational, and observant person. Benevides was carefully avoided by the police and was not taken to any police line up because Benevides told them that he'd seen the TV pictures of Lee Oswald, and Lee Oswald was not the man that he'd seen shoot JD Tippit.
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Are you really suggesting that it was suspicious or impossible for the FBI to link the rifle to Oswald within a couple of days because it was "carefully hidden" behind some boxes for about an hour before being found?
Of course not.... I should have realized that there would be readers who are of diminished reasoning ....
The problem is:... The rifle had not yet been fired by the FBI to create a bullet for ballistic comparison. So there was no way that hoover could have determined that the carefully hidden rifle was in fact the murder weapon.
Hoover already had the serial number of the mannlicher carcano that Klein's had sent the the PO box of a Marine turn coat, commie who he had under surveillance. Hoover knew that he could connect the rifle to Lee Oswald.
"Diminished reasoning" would encompass making silly claims like the red circles on the TSBD windows were some type of signal to LBJ. A laughable, tin foil hat claim easily debunked by newspaper articles explaining those circles years before the assassination. You are changing claims now. Previously you disputed that the authorities could link the rifle to Oswald. Now you are disputing that they could link it to the assassination. Let's see. A rifle is found hidden in the TSBD (or as you say "carefully hidden"). Witnesses confirm shots were fired from that building from a rifle. Shell casings are found by a window on the same floor. And the person linked to that rifle has fled the scene and been implicated in a murder of a police officer. He is also a known political kook. Now make a logical inference about the rifle. Even Inspector Clouseau could figure out it was likely the assassination weapon at that point.
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"Diminished reasoning" would encompass making silly claims like the red circles on the TSBD windows were some type of signal to LBJ. A laughable, tin foil hat claim easily debunked by newspaper articles explaining those circles years before the assassination. You are changing claims now. Previously you disputed that the authorities could link the rifle to Oswald. Now you are disputing that they could link it to the assassination. Let's see. A rifle is found hidden in the TSBD (or as you say "carefully hidden"). Witnesses confirm shots were fired from that building from a rifle. Shell casings are found by a window on the same floor. And the person linked to that rifle has fled the scene and been implicated in a murder of a police officer. He is also a known political kook. Now make a logical inference about the rifle. Even Inspector Clouseau could figure out it was likely the assassination weapon at that point.
PS...You shouldn't compare yourself to Inspector Clouseau .... Although I agree with you that even a dunce could be fooled by evidence presented by men with big shiny badges....
Previously you disputed that the authorities could link the rifle to Oswald. Now you are disputing that they could link it to the assassination.
The authorities COULD link a model 91 / 38 carcano to Lee Oswald.... The BY photo shows Lee holding a carcano...
But they sure as hell could NOT link that carcano in the BY photo to the assassination... However maybe YOU can prove that the rifle in Lee's hands is the same rifle that was carefully hidden BENEATH pallets of books in the TSBD.... And Yes, Both Seymor Weitzman and Eugene Boone said they were able to see the rifle BENEATH the pallet when they got down on the floor and shined their flashlights BENEATH the pallet.....
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You lot want the entire assassination to be decided based on first day information
Investigations to you brainiacs are just 'excuses'
You've got that backwards. It was Hoover who decided the assssination on day 1 when he concluded that LHO was the lone gunman.
You lot are as children.
I take that by making such a comment you feel you are acting as a grown up, right?
It was Hoover who decided the assssination on day 1 when he concluded that LHO was the lone gunman.
Yes that's a fact.... Within minutes of Lee's arrival at DPD headquarters Hoover was on the phone ordering SAIC Gordon Shanklin to send Agent Hosty over to the DPD because Hosty had been "working with these people" ( The Oswald's and The Paines) And at about this same time Hoover called RFK and informed him that the man who had killed his brother, President Kennedy, had been apprehended.
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if you will, at both murder scenes; the only person on earth that can lay claim to that somewhat dubious achievement.
Chappie ol chum... I assume that you are referring to the murder scenes of JFK and JD Tippit.... I the first case, ( the JFK scene) Lee Oswald worked in the TSBD . I'm sure that even you will agree that the fact that he worked there is a solid legitimate reason to be at that site along with hundreds of other people who were at that site.
And as to the second murder scene site ( The Tippit site) Lee Oswald was NOT positively ID'ed as the man who shot JD Tippit..
As a matter of fact the person who was the closest to Tippit at the time he was murdered was Domingo Benevides...who was a solid, rational, and observant person. Benevides was carefully avoided by the police and was not taken to any police line up because Benevides told them that he'd seen the TV pictures of Lee Oswald, and Lee Oswald was not the man that he'd seen shoot JD Tippit.
Dominic Benavides was interviewed by Dallas Police that same day and also gave a very lengthy testimony. Oswald did in fact fit the description Mr.Benavides gave in his testimony. He was actually driving past the incident at a speed of approx 25MPH and came to halt as he heard the gunshots. The fact that Mr. Benavides didn't give a 100% ID does not rule out Oswald as there were a number of other witnesses who did ID Oswald. Helen Markham,Barbara Davis,Virginia Davis,Scoggins and others ID'd Oswald. It was Oswald that shot Tippit.Fact..end of.
The Hoover thing was just a lawman concerned that people would see Oswald had been to Russia and conclude that it was some kind of Russian involvement. No big conspiracy smoking gun thing. Just another odd trivial JFK thing/fact blown up out of all proportion.
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Dominic Benavides was interviewed by Dallas Police that same day and also gave a very lengthy testimony. Oswald did in fact fit the description Mr.Benavides gave in his testimony. He was actually driving past the incident at a speed of approx 25MPH and came to halt as he heard the gunshots. The fact that Mr. Benavides didn't give a 100% ID does not rule out Oswald as there were a number of other witnesses who did ID Oswald. Helen Markham,Barbara Davis,Virginia Davis,Scoggins and others ID'd Oswald. It was Oswald that shot Tippit.Fact..end of.
The Hoover thing was just a lawman concerned that people would see Oswald had been to Russia and conclude that it was some kind of Russian involvement. No big conspiracy smoking gun thing. Just another odd trivial JFK thing/fact blown up out of all proportion.
You're FOS Hardaker....There has been dozens of posts that refute the idea that Helen Markham was rational enough to ID anybody....
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It was Hoover who decided the assssination on day 1 when he concluded that LHO was the lone gunman.
Oswald was formally charged with the murder of Officer J.D.Tippit approx 7.00PM 22nd November and was charged with the assassination of JFK at 1.00 AM 23rd November. So it was not as if Hoover was making some random guess. They already had Oswald in custody and had enough to go on. It was with that clear knowledge that they had the killer in custody that was the backdrop to Hoovers very understandable reasoning and conclusion.
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You're FOS Hardaker....There has been dozens of posts that refute the idea that Helen Markham was rational enough to ID anybody....
The irrational one in this mess was that mixed up fantasist LHO. Can't knock all of those who saw him. Just to many witnesses. Oswald shot JD Tippit.
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Oswald was formally charged with the murder of Officer J.D.Tippit approx 7.00PM 22nd November and was charged with the assassination of JFK at 1.00 AM 23rd November. So it was not as if Hoover was making some random guess. They already had Oswald in custody and had enough to go on. It was with that clear knowledge that they had the killer in custody that was the backdrop to Hoovers very understandable reasoning and conclusion.
Hoovers very understandable reasoning and conclusion.
So, it is your opinion that it is ok for law enforcement officers to make up their mind prior to evidence being collected and subsequently not look any further than they guy in custody?
So much for considering all options... I guess you would have liked to live in Salem...
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The irrational one in this mess was that mixed up fantasist LHO. Can't knock all of those who saw him. Just to many witnesses. Oswald shot JD Tippit.
Amazing? when dozens of witnesses in Dealey Plaza say something that contradicts the official story, they are all deemed to be wrong and we are told eyewitness testimony is highy unreliable.
Yet when a number of people (most of whom only saw Tippit's killer for mere seconds) pick out a guy from a highly questionable line up, they all are deemed to be correct.
I witnessed a street robbery a couple of years ago. I saw the guy walk toward me, and I saw him run after grabbing a girl's phone. Less than 30 minutes later, a police officer asked me if I could describe and/or identify the guy and, as much as I wanted to, I couldn't because it all happened too quickly. With that experience in mind, there is no way you can tell me that all those people would be able to identify Tippit's killer in a fair line up.
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Hoovers very understandable reasoning and conclusion.
So, it is your opinion that it is ok for law enforcement officers to make up their mind prior to evidence being collected and subsequently not look any further than they guy in custody?
So much for considering all options... I guess you would have liked to live in Salem...
Hoover would've had enough information handed to him on Oswald. To be fair it was a little premature for Hoover to be making such statements. But it isn't that big an influence on the actual evidence, the sightings etc. You or others can't base your arguments on a few untimely utterings by Hoover. And you can't just make vague accusations against eye witnesses and expect people to ignore clear irrefutable sightings of Oswald as the killer of Officer J.D.Tippit.
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Hoover would've had enough information handed to him on Oswald. To be fair it was a little premature for Hoover to be making such statements. But it isn't that big an influence on the actual evidence, the sightings etc. You or others can't base your arguments on a few untimely utterings by Hoover. And you can't just make vague accusations against eye witnesses and expect people to ignore clear irrefutable sightings of Oswald as the killer of Officer J.D.Tippit.
You or others can't base your arguments on a few untimely utterings by Hoover.
I'd say they were "untimely".... He wrote on a memo about another line of enquiry that no further action was needed before Oswald was charged with anything.
And you can't just make vague accusations against eye witnesses and
Really, but LNs can call eye-witnesses wrong, mistaken and whatever else as much as they like?
And I am not making vague accusations against anybody. In fact I am pretty convinced that the Tippit witnesses were acting in good faith under a lot a pressure. If anything, I would take issue with the way the line ups were conducted.
expect people to ignore clear irrefutable sightings of Oswald as the killer of Officer J.D.Tippit.
"irrefutable" is a big word to use for witnesses who were never challenged or questioned in a proper trial.
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Hoover would've had enough information handed to him on Oswald. To be fair it was a little premature for Hoover to be making such statements. But it isn't that big an influence on the actual evidence, the sightings etc. You or others can't base your arguments on a few untimely utterings by Hoover. And you can't just make vague accusations against eye witnesses and expect people to ignore clear irrefutable sightings of Oswald as the killer of Officer J.D.Tippit.
You ( ) can't base your arguments on a few untimely utterings by Hoover.
Mr Hardaker... Perhaps you should back off a bit and take a hard look at the timing of what you call "untimely utterings"
Immediately after Lee Oswald was murdered, Hoover wrote a memo to LBJ in which he requested LBJ to issue "something" that would lead the suckers, ( who were in the dark and pleading for answers in the violent murder of their President ), into believing that one hapless, deranged soul, murdered President Kennedy for no reason at all. At the time, November 24 1963, Hoover had NO, ( None, Nada , ZIP ) solid evidence that Lee Oswald was in fact the assassin.... But he was desperate to get on with the postmortem execution of the dead Oswald ......