JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 07:32:48 PM

Title: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 07:32:48 PM
Friends, while I continue to believe that Prayer Person is none other than Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, there is another solution which, however startling, has been... exercising me of late, and it involves synthesizing important elements of the Prayer Man theory with a completely alternative explanation.

In A Nutshell

One!
Doorway Man in Altgens and Wiegman is not Mr Billy Lovelady. He is... Mr Joe Molina.

Here's a photo of Mr Molina in 1969. Take a few years off, and thin the face, and I think it's quite possible. Look at that chin!

(https://i.imgur.com/mrezpb9.jpg)

This would explain, amongst other things, the dark strip down Doorway Man's right side in Wiegman: Mr Molina's suit jacket  Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/ETAzmvG.jpg)

Two!!
Prayer Man in Wiegman and Darnell is.... Mr Billy Lovelady.

(https://i.imgur.com/ayhNC6A.jpg)

He didn't leave the steps, but pretended to have done so for one simple reason...

Three!!!
Mr Lovelady, from his Prayer Man spot, witnessed Officer Marrion L. Baker dash in the front door and stop Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, who was hurrying out to see what all the excitement was about. Officer Baker pushed Mr Oswald back into the front lobby and asked him if he worked here (i.e. could he point him to the stairs). Meantime, Mr Roy Truly had come in and he now told the officer he was the building manager. Etc.!

No! I hear you shout. Impossible to a brand new level of preposterousness!

Welllllllllll... let's allow Mr James Jarman to take it from here:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs. (HSCA interview, 9.25.77)

Perhaps a certain other Depository man walked through those glass doors with Mr Oswald.

Maybe that's what the 'out with Bill Shelley in front' notation really means...

Food for thought?  Thumb1:
Title: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 07:50:18 PM
Again:   There is a rogue double standard in the dysfunctional JFK research community where Prayer Man advocates are allowed to make bizarre nutty claims with no resistance what so ever...

Case in point...

This claim that the more than proven image of Lovelady in Altgens is actually Molina is Cinque-Fetzer territory that has drawn censure in the past when promoted by those aforementioned notorious sources...
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 08:21:14 PM
Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs. (Mr James Jarman, HSCA interview, 9.25.77)

Friends, please note how extremely close the above is to what Mr Harry D. Holmes recalled Mr Oswald as having described:

He said, ?I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions..."
Title: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 08:31:34 PM
Alan has already had it explained to him that the correct context of Oswald coming downstairs to be stopped at the lobby shows that he had just come down from the 2nd floor lunch room encounter...

Alan and the Prayer Man people are deliberately misrepresenting the conflating of the two stops of Oswald, one in the lunch room, one at the front door,  in order to mislead the community towards the debunked Prayer Man claim...
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 09:06:49 PM
Is it just me, or doesn't Doorway Man here look too... bald on top to be dark-haired Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.imgur.com/ETAzmvG.jpg)

A man whose hair is not just comparably thinned out but also lighter-colored might well show up like this dome-headed fellow, however!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 09:23:02 PM
HSCA: If a movie camera (...) showed two figures (resembling each other) in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?

LOVELADY: No, that?s still me at the left (of) doorway.


(https://i.imgur.com/WJmrS1v.jpg)

Maybe he's actually telling the truth here!  ???

(https://i.imgur.com/ayhNC6A.jpg)
Title: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 12:50:38 AM
No serious researcher questions Lovelady being the person seen in Wiegman to the left of the center rail...This is Fetzer-Cinque level material...
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 01:17:05 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/ETAzmvG.jpg)

Friends! It is important to recall that it was established some time back on the 'Prayer Woman' thread that no shadow can account for the dark vertical strip down 'Lovelady's' right side in the Wiegman frames. It's a physical impossibility!

This is either Billy Lovelady with some dark garment covering the right side of his red plaid shirt, or it's not Billy Lovelady at all.  ???

Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 02:27:39 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/ETAzmvG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eI0TGw1.jpg)

Something doesn't sit right here... too much domed crown in Wiegman :-\
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 02, 2018, 03:22:49 AM
Is there not already a prayer person thread [about 100 pages of it] ???
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 12:24:12 PM
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Is there not already a prayer person thread [about 100 pages of it] ???

That thread is titled 'Prayer Woman'  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Larry Trotter on December 02, 2018, 10:50:28 PM
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(https://i.imgur.com/ETAzmvG.jpg)

Friends! It is important to recall that it was established some time back on the 'Prayer Woman' thread that no shadow can account for the dark vertical strip down 'Lovelady's' right side in the Wiegman frames. It's a physical impossibility!

This is either Billy Lovelady with some dark garment covering the right side of his red plaid shirt, or it's not Billy Lovelady at all.  ???
As pictured @ about 12:30pm CST, 11/22/'63, filmed from an in-motion hand held moving motion picture camera by a cameraman in a Motorcade Convertible Automobile, in Dallas, Texas, DealeyPlaza, showing the south/southeast facing TexasSchoolBookDepository Building Elm St Entrance Portal Image.
As filmed, there is a definite vertical shadow partially blocking Images from direct sunlight, including BillyNolanLoveladyImage's right side. And, there is nothing draped over his Image's right side at filming!
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 04:54:57 AM
As photos and film footage taken of the entrance area shortly after the assassination amply show---------------

E.g.:

(https://i.imgur.com/HlcsKGy.gif)

----------------the position of the sun in the sky rules out any shadow cast by the west column as the explanation for the dark vertical strip down 'Lovelady' in all the Wiegman doorway frames.

And! There is in Wiegman no human body in 'Lovelady's' vicinity, and to his west, to cast a shadow, vertical or otherwise, down his side!

To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance---or disinformation  ::)
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Larry Trotter on December 03, 2018, 06:59:38 AM
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As photos and film footage taken of the entrance area shortly after the assassination amply show---------------

E.g.:

(https://i.imgur.com/HlcsKGy.gif)

----------------the position of the sun in the sky rules out any shadow cast by the west column as the explanation for the dark vertical strip down 'Lovelady' in all the Wiegman doorway frames.

And! There is in Wiegman no human body in 'Lovelady's' vicinity, and to his west, to cast a shadow, vertical or otherwise, down his side!

To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance---or disinformation  ::)

An all to familiar EdselDodge by Ford, as while discussing a WiegmanFilm frame, but illustrating two different scenes several minutes after the WiegmanFilm, different cameras, different distance, and different camera angles.
Why use any film other than the WiegmanFilm?
And you say, "To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance---or disinformation  ::)"?
??? You wish!
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 01:22:51 PM
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An all to familiar EdselDodge by Ford, as while discussing a WiegmanFilm frame, but illustrating two different scenes several minutes after the WiegmanFilm, different cameras, different distance, and different camera angles.
Why use any film other than the WiegmanFilm?
And you say, "To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance---or disinformation  ::)"?
??? You wish!


Poor Mr Trotter evidently believes that a different camera angle on the ground will cause the sun to move its position in the sky! Keep the gags coming, Mr Trotter  :D
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Larry Trotter on December 03, 2018, 04:22:46 PM
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Poor Mr Trotter evidently believes that a different camera angle on the ground will cause the sun to move its position in the sky! Keep the gags coming, Mr Trotter  :D
And surely you will ::).
Try to remember, over here, Sunlight origin and relative shadow/shadow angle is determined by objects and their placement, as well as their positioning at a given time determined by daily rotation as well as annual orbit
of Our Earth. >:(
But again, why do you use a MartinFilmClip and a HughesFilmClip, both of which were filmed from a different Camera, CameraAngle and CameraDistance, than the WiegmanFilmClip, the basis for your no vertical shadow claim, that was filmed, accordingly, an estimated 20 minutes prior to the MartinFilmClip and HughesFilmClip of the TSBD Elm St EntrancePortal? ???
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 04:36:10 PM
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And surely you will ::).
Try to remember, over here, Sunlight origin and relative shadow/shadow angle is determined by objects and their positioning at a given time determined by daily rotation as well as annual orbit
of Our Earth. >:(
But again, why do you use a MartinFilmClip and a HughesFilmClip, both of which were filmed from a different Camera, CameraAngle and CameraDistance, than the WiegmanFilmClip, the basis for your no vertical shadow claim, that was filmed, accordingly, an estimated 20 minutes prior to the MartinFilmClip and HughesFilmClip of the TSBD Elm St EntrancePortal? ???

Okey dokey, Mr Trotter, if you believe that's a shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman, how about you show us an image (photo or film) that supports your silly notion?

Thumb1:
Title: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 03, 2018, 05:00:30 PM
Ford is switching the topic again...This would all be simply and quickly solved if we asked a professional film analyst...He would quickly tell you it was shadow causing the dark line on Lovelady...It's the only thing it could be and the suggestion it was a jacket draped over Lovelady's right side is what is the silly ignorance here...

Alan has had this issue answered already but is just repeating the same already disproven claims...Typical of Prayer Man backers he rationalizes backwards...A competent analyst realizes it is shadow so therefore seeks out what it tells you...Alan uses the Kamp method of dismissing what it is and then inventing some crazy explanation for it...The dark border is shadow and when you look at Martin for comparison all it tells you is Lovelady is further to the back of the landing where he would intersect that shadow...

Altgens should teach any researcher how badly angle of perspective changes things...Martin is from the reverse angle...While the shadow border does not change, the perception of the places of objects in the portal does...All it means is Lovelady is further back and more to the west side - but it doesn't mean that the shadow we see with our own eyes on Lovelady isn't shadow...This is yet again another prime example of the damaging effect of Prayer Man supporters on competent research...These people are still corrupting the community and arguing for Prayer Man being Oswald long after credible researchers would have seen it was obviously Stanton...
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Larry Trotter on December 03, 2018, 05:21:44 PM
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And surely you will ::).
Try to remember, over here, Sunlight origin and relative shadow/shadow angle is determined by objects and their placement, as well as their positioning at a given time determined by daily rotation as well as annual orbit
of Our Earth. >:(
But again, why do you use a MartinFilmClip and a HughesFilmClip, both of which were filmed from a different Camera, CameraAngle and CameraDistance, than the WiegmanFilmClip, the basis for your no vertical shadow claim, that was filmed, accordingly, an estimated 20 minutes prior to the MartinFilmClip and HughesFilmClip of the TSBD Elm St EntrancePortal? ???

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Okey dokey, Mr Trotter, if you believe that's a shadow down Mr Lovelady's right side in Wiegman, how about you show us an image (photo or film) that supports your silly notion?

Thumb1:
So you, AlanFord, make a claim about a WiegmanFilmFrameImage, and use different FilmClips, filmed about 20 minutes later from different Cameras, CameraAngles, and CameraDistances to illustrate your claim of "No Shadow On BillyNolanLovelady Image's Right Side? ::)
So you, AlanFord, make a claim void of reliable provable evidence, but then suggest I "show an image (photo or film) to support my silly notion"? ???
No Sir, it is your claim that requires justification! >:(
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 06:29:27 PM
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So you, AlanFord, make a claim about a WiegmanFilmFrameImage, and use different FilmClips, filmed about 20 minutes later from different Cameras, CameraAngles, and CameraDistances to illustrate your claim of "No Shadow On BillyNolanLovelady Image's Right Side? ::)
So you, AlanFord, make a claim void of reliable provable evidence, but then suggest I "show an image (photo or film) to support my silly notion"? ???
No Sir, it is your claim that requires justification! >:(

LOL.

There was an extensive discussion of this on the Prayer Woman thread, where poor Mr Doyle, his Blessed Apostle Mr Trotter, and one or two others, tried to come up with something--anything!--remotely indicative of a natural shadow that would have cast Mr Lovelady's right side into darkness.

And, guess what---the effort failed!

So! Until poor Mr Doyle, his Blessed Apostle Mr Trotter, or someone else, can show us what they now have in the way of images that might revive the silly notion that the dark strip is a shadow, Mr Trotter's words (as ever) are a waste of good bandwidth.

 Thumb1:
Title: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 03, 2018, 07:39:47 PM
Still waiting for Alan to honestly answer the undeniable proof of Calvery's short-length sweater...

Once again Mr Ford is not telling the truth...I did answer it...It shows that Lovelady is further back and west in the portal in order to meet the shadow where he does...

This is silly...

As Alan shows us, most Prayer Man "research" involves taking given things that are obvious in the evidence and trying to make them otherwise in order to force the bogus Prayer Man theory to fit...
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 11:58:12 PM
Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, WC testimony:

Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

(https://i.imgur.com/hmkgboJ.gif)

------------Mr Lovelady several steps down, over by the wall
------------Mr Shelley up on the landing, also over by the wall
------------At some point between these Hughes frames and Wiegman, Mr Shelley goes inside
------------Mr Lovelady takes several steps back and ends up in the Prayer Man position.

Possible?

I would love to see a photo of Mr Joe Molina from 1963!

Could he be the figure in (what looks like) blue standing behind Lovelady and to his right-------in the 'Lovelady-in-Wiegman-and-Altgens' sweet spot?

(https://i.imgur.com/hmkgboJ.gif)

We know this figure cannot be Mr Frazier himself, as Mr Frazier was wearing a light-colored shirt!

(https://i.imgur.com/XGvxMY0.jpg)
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 04, 2018, 12:53:48 AM
Problem!

While 'Mr Lovelady' in Wiegman looks surprisingly bald on top------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ETAzmvG.jpg)

------------we do see the signature bit of Lovelady hair-in-front in Altgens:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ahg6l9h.jpg)

But!

When I look at an original wirephoto-----------

(https://i.imgur.com/tKGQd4W.jpg)

----------I cannot help being struck by the fact that it shows a man of comparable bald-on-topness to Wiegman's 'Lovelady'!

Alteration? Oh no, not necessarily at all, at least not deliberate alteration.

Could it be that the bit of hair coming down in front in later-Altgens is not a bit of hair at all, but an unfortunate common-or-garden splotchy anomaly that has crept into the image?

(https://i.imgur.com/uSzeaKr.jpg)

That's quite a tuft the cropped-haired Mr Lovelady of 11/22/63-------------

(https://i.imgur.com/aYkNAz5.jpg)

---------------seems to have in the later iteration of Altgens!

Prayer Man's hair, by contrast, would fit the bill capitally!

(https://i.imgur.com/XGvxMY0.jpg)
 
:o





Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 04, 2018, 11:05:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------1!-------------------------------------------------------

Mr Harry D. Holmes recalls Mr Oswald claiming an encounter with a police officer in the front lobby:

He said, ?I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions..."

--------------------------------------------------------2!!-------------------------------------------------------

Mr James Jarman recalls Mr Billy Lovelady's having witnessed this event:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

If Mr Lovelady, still out on the steps, saw this encounter on the far side of the glass doors, then he will have misinterpreted the officer's reason for addressing Mr Oswald as having been a hostile one.

--------------------------------------------------------3!!!-------------------------------------------------------

The below, from The Washington Post on 11/23/63, is just one of multiple press reports conveying the official DPD line on an encounter between Mr Oswald and a police officer at the front entrance:

(https://i.imgur.com/noPBlK3.png)

Sorry, friends, but it stretches all credulity to suggest that these mutual corroborations are coincidental.

The Baker-Oswald encounter happened in the front lobby, not in the second-floor lunchroom!


Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Larry Trotter on December 05, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
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--------------------------------------------------------1!-------------------------------------------------------

Mr Harry D. Holmes recalls Mr Oswald claiming an encounter with a police officer in the front lobby:

He said, ?I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions..."

--------------------------------------------------------2!!-------------------------------------------------------

Mr James Jarman recalls Mr Billy Lovelady's having witnessed this event:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building. Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

If Mr Lovelady, still out on the steps, saw this encounter on the far side of the glass doors, then he will have misinterpreted the officer's reason for addressing Mr Oswald as having been a hostile one.

--------------------------------------------------------3!!!-------------------------------------------------------

The below, from The Washington Post on 11/23/63, is just one of multiple press reports conveying the official DPD line on an encounter between Mr Oswald and a police officer at the front entrance:

(https://i.imgur.com/noPBlK3.png)

Sorry, friends, but it stretches all credulity to suggest that these mutual corroborations are coincidental.

The Baker-Oswald encounter happened in the front lobby, not in the second-floor lunchroom!

  As I am having a difficulty trying to reconcile the posted comments with the statements of record by the persons being referenced, perhaps pertinent statements can be found available among said testimony.

 Testimony of HarryHolmes:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
 
 Testimony of JamesJarman:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm

 Testimony of BillyLovelady:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 05, 2018, 12:43:20 AM
Warren Commission Exhibit No. 203, as published by the WC:

(https://i.imgur.com/m2Jypow.jpg)

No splotch!

------------------------------------------

Photo published in New York Herald Tribune, May 1964:

(https://i.imgur.com/OpdMl1S.jpg)

Splotch!

(https://i.imgur.com/jvARnl2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/I3t2Svu.jpg)

Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 07, 2018, 09:45:28 PM
Mr Roy Edward Lewis is here on the right, beside Mr Carl Edward Jones.
Note how short he is...

(https://i.imgur.com/8wzstR3.jpg)

Here's what Mr Lewis told Larry Sneed in 1998:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ei9rGRv.jpg)

Why hello, Mr Lewis!:

(https://i.imgur.com/qwlurE4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Xs7mOYn.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Prayer Man - An Alternative Solution?
Post by: Alan Ford on December 08, 2018, 12:49:20 PM
Mr-Lovelady-in-Altgens' left arm is not his left arm. It's the raised arm of someone out in the street!

(https://i.imgur.com/bh4Q2OC.jpg)

I believe we can make out Mr Roy Edward Lewis's head behind the hand   Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/2CxBdfm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/O5fO5SX.jpg)