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General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 01:56:58 AM

Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 01:56:58 AM
A bit of assistance needed!

Who--------apart from Mr Billy Lovelady, Mr Buell Wesley Frazier and Ms Sarah Stanton---------mentioned seeing Mr Bill Shelley on the Depository front steps during the motorcade?

Thanking you!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 01, 2018, 02:39:49 AM
Curious...why would it matter where Shelley was?
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 12:47:54 PM
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Curious...why would it matter where Shelley was?

It could matter very much indeed!

I'm troubled by a number of things, starting with.............

-------------in his March 1964 FBI statement, Mr Shelley erroneously puts Carolyn Arnold on the front steps for the motorcade
-------------in his Warren Commission testimony, he erroneously puts Lloyd Viles on the front steps for the motorcade
-------------his own account of his movements post-assassination are wildly inconsistent
-------------the person with whom he says he had an exchange out on the 'island' just happens to be the woman at whose wedding he was best man a few months ago (= Ms Gloria Calvery)
-------------he cannot be confidently identified in any assassination or aftermath photos
-------------we get inconsistent statements as to his position on the steps from Mr Lovelady and Mr Frazier
-------------his claim that he saw Mr Truly and Officer Baker "fixin' to" run into the Depository building some 3+ minutes (!) after the shooting sounds like an invented 'memory'

Did Mr Shelley put in an appearance on the steps several minutes before the motorcade, notice Mr Lloyd Viles and Ms Carolyn Arnold in the area, get noticed by Ms Stanton, and then go back in the building?

Did Mr Lovelady and Mr Frazier cover for him?

Is it possible that the explanation for the 3+ minutes nonsense had nothing to do with Ms Vickie Adams and everything to do with Ms Gloria Calvery?

Just thinking out loud here!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 01:36:25 PM
Alan Ford wrote:

Is it possible that the explanation for the 3+ minutes nonsense had nothing to do with Ms Vickie Adams and everything to do with Ms Gloria Calvery?

...
...

Alan,

You make good points about the mysterious Mr. Shelly, but I'm not sure what you're thinking about regarding Calvery.

Could you please expound?

(Do you not believe that Sandy Larsen, Brian Doyle and I have correctly identified her in the Z-film, Betzner 3, and Couch-Darnell?)

Thanks,

-- Tommy  :)

PS  Shelley was filmed getting into a police car with Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce about an hour(?) after the assassination.
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 04:37:35 PM
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Alan Ford wrote:

Is it possible that the explanation for the 3+ minutes nonsense had nothing to do with Ms Vickie Adams and everything to do with Ms Gloria Calvery?

...
...

Alan,

You make good points about the mysterious Mr. Shelly, but I'm not sure what you're thinking about regarding Calvery.

Could you please expound?

(Do you not believe that Sandy Larsen, Brian Doyle and I have correctly identified her in the Z-film, Betzner 3, and Couch-Darnell?)

Thanks,

-- Tommy  :)

PS  Shelley was filmed getting into a police car with Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce about an hour(?) after the assassination.

Mr Graves, the ID of Ms Calvery in Betzner & Zapruder looks solid to me, but not the one in Darnell.

My tentative thinking re. Ms Calvery's being the reason for Mr Shelley's distended sense of time
-------------------Mr Joe Molina's testimony gives to understand that Ms Calvery's arrival at the front of the Depository building was significantly later than Messrs. Shelley, Lovelady & Frazier would have us believe, and certainly well after Mr Truly entered the building
-------------------Mr Shelley chose Ms Calvery---a very good friend---to lend credibility to his contrived story of being in the area
-------------------This led to complications as soon as he established that she had not come back to the building for quite some time... hence the absurd 3+ minutes estimate of Mr Truly & Officer Baker's entry into the building

By 'aftermath' images I meant immediate aftermath. Up to the police car footage, Mr Shelley is The Invisible Man!
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 01, 2018, 05:29:39 PM
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Alan,   Could you please expound? 
Yes please do.  Are you suggesting that Mr Shelley was involved in the assassination?
Alan Ford.....
Quote
Just thinking out loud here!
Understand that 'thoughts' can seem convoluted unless a specific implication is provided.
So what are we getting at here with Shelley?
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 05:36:43 PM
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Yes please do.  Are you suggesting that Mr Shelley was involved in the assassination?
Alan Ford.....Understand that 'thoughts' can seem convoluted unless a specific implication is provided.
So what are we getting at here with Shelley?

Mr Freeman, I'm merely suggesting that taking Mr Shelley off those steps explains a number of problems with his story.

As to where that leads, well how about we start with the question, Why would he lie about this?--------and see where it takes us...  Thumb1:
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 05:38:15 PM
Thomas:   Alan and Bart just ignore anything that works against their Prayer Man theory...Alan is trying an evidence end-around here with Shelley...He won't give a straight answer to the more than proven identification of Calvery at the steps in Couch/Darnell by yourself...

Alan is living in a delusion of his own creation and is openly defying/ignoring the clothing match and testimony timing that forces the woman on the steps to be Calvery...Alan agrees Tall Woman is Calvery but then uncredibly refuses to recognize the evidence that places her on the steps in Couch/Darnell...Alan is filibustering by going in to his Shelley denial...He's doing it to avoid answering Frazier's locating of Stanton according to Calvery's arrival at the steps...Don't be fooled Thomas...The only reason Alan refuses to admit Calvery's clearly-seen presence at the steps is because he knows it confirms Frazier's timing of facing Stanton...And that makes Prayer Man Stanton...Larsen is equally dishonest and gets away with his dishonesty by the brute censorship that removed those who could demand this of Larsen...Don't be dumb Thomas...The only reason Alan is in outright denial of Shelley going up the extension is because it is an evidence lock for my case...Only a fool would follow Ford off into this lie and entertain it...

Meanwhile for the more reality-oriented Shelley is the man in the tie behind Lovelady in Altgens...He is the first man Lovelady described as being from his left to his right...

Time for the Prayer Man infection of the evidence to stop...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 07:39:32 PM
Mr.  SHELLEY.  He (Eddie Piper) was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Has Mr Shelley slipped up here? How on earth could he have been on the first floor himself in time to see this? ???
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 07:43:25 PM
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Mr.  SHELLEY.  He (Eddie Piper) was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Has Mr Shelley slipped up here? How on earth could he have been on the first floor himself in time to see this? ???

Because if you bother to actually read what I am writing Shelley went to the Domino Room and saw Harvey exit...Harvey lied in his Fritz testimony and said he was out front with Shelley after the lunch room encounter...What he couldn't say was he was out back with Shelley by the rear exit by the Domino Room...This is proven by the fact only Lovelady is seen returning to the steps...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 07:44:08 PM
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Mr Graves, the ID of Ms Calvery in Betzner & Zapruder looks solid to me, but not the one in Darnell.

My tentative thinking re. Ms Calvery's being the reason for Mr Shelley's distended sense of time
-------------------Mr Joe Molina's testimony gives to understand that Ms Calvery's arrival at the front of the Depository building was significantly later than Messrs. Shelley, Lovelady & Frazier would have us believe, and certainly well after Mr Truly entered the building
-------------------Mr Shelley chose Ms Calvery---a very good friend---to lend credibility to his contrived story of being in the area
-------------------This led to complications as soon as he established that she had not come back to the building for quite some time... hence the absurd 3+ minutes estimate of Mr Truly & Officer Baker's entry into the building

By 'aftermath' images I meant immediate aftermath. Up to the police car footage, Mr Shelley is The Invisible Man!

Alan,

I'd like to point out that the skirt Gloria Calvery is wearing in the Zapruder film has bold, dark, horizontal stripes in it, and that a smidgen of one of those stripes can barely be made out in a blow up of the sliver of the woman's skirt that's visible in Darnell.

That, and the fact that the woman in Darnell is, just like Calvery, wearing a black blouse and a black headscarf, and is in very close proximity to the only woman in Dealy Plaza that day who was wearing a white dress and a white headscarf, tells me that the woman in Darnell actually is Gloria Calvery. 

Additionally, the fact that this woman we're talking about is facing the steps and speaking with a man on the steps jibes with Frazier's statement that after the assassination a crying girl "came by" and told some somebody on the steps that Kennedy had been shot.

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 07:46:30 PM
No Thomas...Frazier said Calvery was hysterically shouting in a low voice on the way to the steps that the president has been shot...She did that 3 seconds or more before the start of Couch/Darnell...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 07:49:59 PM
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Alan,

I'd like to point out that the skirt Gloria Calvery is wearing in the Zapruder film has bold, dark, horizontal stripes in it, and that a smidgen of one of those stripes can barely be made out in a blow up of the sliver of the woman's skirt that's visible in Darnell.

Not good enough, sorry!

How do you know this isn't Ms Calvery?

(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 08:03:43 PM
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How do you know this isn't Ms Calvery?

By all the photographic evidence and spoken testimony that has been repeated many many times that you are ignoring Alan... The visual evidence matches Tall Woman's clothing with Calvery at the steps...Dark scarf, top, and green plaid skirt...Also Woman In All White is along side Calvery in both Zapruder and Darnell...Plus, both Lovelady and Frazier spoke of Lovelady & Shelley speaking to Calvery before they left the steps...

No serious researcher could ignore this evidence that has been cited dozens and dozens of times in these threads and pretend he is credibly, honestly looking for the correct evidence...

A competent researcher would know those women you point-out are still at the Knoll when Calvery has to be at the steps according to the known timing...Only an uncredible researcher would run roughshod across the other known evidence and offer that woman as Calvery...Only a non-serious poster would ignore that Calvery is running back in hysterics immediately upon seeing Kennedy's gory head shot...

A competent photo analyst would realize the woman Alan points-out has too dark a skirt to match Calvery's green plaid skirt...That woman isn't tall enough either compared to the other women next to her...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 08:08:35 PM
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No Thomas...Frazier said Calvery was hysterically shouting in a low voice on the way to the steps that the president has been shot...She did that 3 seconds or more before the start of Couch/Darnell...


Brian,

At 34:10 in his Sixth Floor Museum interview, Frazier says that Shelley and Frazier went down towards the triple-underpass because, right before they left, a lady came by, and she was crying, and she said that somebody had shot the president.



-- Tommy  :)
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 08:24:48 PM
I have had trouble locating the testimony but somewhere, whether it was the Garrison Trial or elsewhere, Frazier said Calvery shouted in a low hysterical voice that "The president has been shot" on the way to the steps as she approached...Frazier said I had trouble hearing it so I turned to Sarah and she said "I think she said the president has been shot"...What you are quoting doesn't conflict with this previous statement by Frazier...

You are a tricky presence Thomas because you are smart enough to know that your entry deserves a more honest follow-through...The fact both Frazier and Lovelady confirmed that Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they went up the extension proves that the persons you see in Couch/Darnell are Lovelady & Shelley...Which in turn PROVES that the person you are calling Calvery at the steps in Couch/Darnell is the real Calvery...Which in turn proves the timing of Frazier locating Stanton via Calvery forces Prayer Man to be Stanton...

We are saying the same thing here because the start of Couch/Darnell is approximately 3 seconds after Lovelady & Shelley left the steps... 
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 08:27:50 PM
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Not good enough, sorry!

How do you know this isn't Ms Calvery?

(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)


Alan,

You mean the woman to the immediate left of the young lady wearing the red plaid skirt in the photo Clive Largey posted on page 5 of Bob Prudhome's JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum thread titled, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up To Marion Baker?"?

(Too bad this forum's rules prohibit my posting the link here.)

-- Tommy  :)

PS  For reference, that's "Hardhat Man" to the immediate left of your gal, above, and the above-mentioned young lady with the red plaid dress to his left."



Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 08:33:45 PM
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Alan,

You mean the woman to the immediate left of the young lady wearing the red plaid skirt in the photo Clive Largey posted on page 5 of Bob Prudhome's JFK Assassination Debate thread titled, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up To Marion Baker?"?

I mean the woman clearly marked with a red arrow, Mr Graves.
Why can't she be a candidate for Ms Calvery?
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 08:35:09 PM
There's tricky Thomas again encouraging Alan instead of pointing-out the fact that woman can't be at the Knoll at that time and still be Calvery...Her skirt is too dark to be the light green plaid skirt Calvery wore...And she is too short to be the tall Calvery when compared to those next to her...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 08:44:10 PM
Alan,

If you were to visually compare your photo and the EF photo I just now tried to refer you to (have you found it yet?), you'd see that "your Calvery" wasn't wearing a headscarf, and therefore couldn't have been Calvery (because Calvery is definitely wearing a headscarf in the Z-film and in Betzner 3.

Also, it would appear that Gloria Calvery was taller that your gal.

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 08:59:45 PM
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Alan,

If you were to visually compare your photo and the EF photo I just now tried to refer you to (have you found it yet?), and if you were to use that photo to help you find other photos (e.g., Altgens 6?) showing the same girl, you'd see that, unlike Calvery, she wasn't wearing a headscarf, and therefore couldn't have been Calvery (because Calvery is definitely wearing a headscarf in the Z-film (and in Betzner 3, iirc).

-- Tommy  :)

Mr Graves, I can find no photo whatsoever from Mr Clive Largey on page 5 of that thread.

The skirt of 'Gloria Calvery' in Darnell is much lighter in tone than her top. Zapruder does not show such an extreme difference on Ms Calvery.

The Darnell ID is---------in short----------most fanciful!
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 09:30:12 PM
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The skirt of 'Gloria Calvery' in Darnell is much lighter in tone than her top. Zapruder does not show such an extreme difference on Ms Calvery.

Wrong...Different film and equipment...

What Alan is ignoring is his choice for Calvery has a dark skirt that is too dark to be Calvery's green skirt...

Alan ignores that Woman In All White is next to Calvery in both Zapruder and Darnell and pretends he is still arguing honestly...

Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 10:02:44 PM
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Mr Graves, I can find no photo whatsoever from Mr Clive Largey on page 5 of that thread.

The skirt of 'Gloria Calvery' in Darnell is much lighter in tone than her top. Zapruder does not show such an extreme difference on Ms Calvery.

The Darnell ID is---------in short----------most fanciful!


Alan,

1 )  Go to the JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum.

2 )  Find Robert Prudhomme's thread, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?"

3 )  Go to page 5 of said thread.

4 )  The photo/frame I'm talking about is in the second post from the top.

5 )  It was posted there by Clive Largey on September 2, 2015, (back when I foolishly thought that "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell might be Calvery, ergo my foolish comments on the thread).

6 )  According to the EF's automatic notations, this same (Willis 5) blow-up had apparently been posted one day earlier by Robert Prudhomme.

7 )  To reiterate what I told you in my earlier post,"your Calvery" is probably the gal standing to the immediate left of the girl wearing the red plaid skirt.

8 )  Note that although in this Willis 5 blow-up, the real Gloria Calvery is hidden behind the highest-standing Secret Service agent in the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, Calvery's dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague is visible, and that she has been labeled with the number "7" in this blown-up Willis 5 frame (if you can find it, that is -- lol).

Good luck,

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 10:10:57 PM
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8) Note that although in this Willis 5 blow-up, the real Gloria Calvery is hidden behind the highest-standing Secret Service agent in the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, Calvery's dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague is visible, and that she has been labeled with the number "7" in this blown-up Willis 5 frame (if you can find it -- lol).


And your evidence that Ms Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague were siamese twins is?

I note you haven't addressed the extreme tone contrast in Darnell. Ho hum!

(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)

Why-----------btw-----------does 'Gloria's' skirt trend sharply upwards from left to right? Could it be that you've been looking at this wrong?



Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 10:23:14 PM
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Alan,

1 )  Go to the JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum.

2 )  Find Robert Prudhomme's thread, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?"

3 )  Go to page 5 of said thread.

4 )  The photo/frame (Willis 5 blow up, actually) I'm talking about is in the second post from the top.

5 )  It was posted there by Clive Largey on September 2, 2015, (back when I foolishly thought that "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell might be Calvery, ergo my foolish comments on the thread).

6 )  According to the EF's automatic notations, this same (Willis 5) blow-up had apparently been posted one day earlier by Robert Prudhomme.

7 )  To reiterate what I told you in my earlier post,"your Calvery" is probably the gal standing to the immediate left of the girl wearing the red plaid skirt in this Willis 5 blow-up.

8 )  Note that although in this Willis 5 blow-up the real Gloria Calvery is hidden behind the highest-standing Secret Service agent in the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, Calvery's dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague is visible, and that she has been labeled with the number "7" in this blown-up Willis 5 frame (if you can find it, that is -- lol).

Good luck,

-- Tommy  :)


EDIT:

Once you've found that thread at the EF, I suggest that you also take a look at the labeled-by-Chris Davidson Z-frame (number 72) in his second post (the eleventh one down from the top; click on it -- it gets really big) ON PAGE 1.

In my humble opinion, "your Calvery" has been labeled "4" in that frame, and the gal wearing the red plaid skirt (whom Chris and I thought might be Running Girl/Calvery) is partially hidden behind her (and is labeled "3").

Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 10:36:36 PM
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EDIT:

Once you've found that thread at the EF, I suggest that you also take a look at the labeled-by-Chris Davidson Z-frame (number 72) in his post (the eleventh one down from the top) ON PAGE 1.

In my humble opinion, "your Calvery" has been labeled "4" in that frame, and the gal wearing the red plaid skirt (whom Chris and I thought might be Running Girl/Calvery) is mostly hidden behind her, and is labeled "3".

I know the thread well, thank you Mr Graves, but it's not my job to do homework assignments set by you!

Now! How about you show us what you're talking about, e.g. your cross-referencing of 'my' Ms Calvery in Couch with 'Altgens etc', and then we can talk? Sound good?  Thumb1:

Why do you still evade the issue of the tone contrast between Darnell-Gloria's upper and lower body? If Zapruder is anything to go by, it should look something like an upside-down version of this:

(https://i.imgur.com/YIqyGTR.jpg)

But it doesn't! It just looks ridiculous...

You did soopa-doopa work on the Betzner & Zapruder Calvery IDs, Mr Graves, but allowed yourself to get overexcited on Darnell. 2 out of 3 ain't bad  ;)

Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 01, 2018, 11:29:03 PM
Thomas:   Have you read anything I've written?...Running Woman is the woman in the white blouse and black skirt who is next to Gloria Calvery in Zapruder...You can identify her white blouse and black skirt in Couch/Darnell...She ran back behind Calvery and Woman In All White because she was standing with them as a group...She is labeled "Peggy Burney" in the Newsweek Zapruder frame with the names given to the spectators...

Alan is switching the topic because he's trying to avoid honestly discussing Woman In All White and how she proves the woman next to her is Calvery...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 01, 2018, 11:39:16 PM
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Wrong...Different film and equipment...

What Alan is ignoring is his choice for Calvery has a dark skirt that is too dark to be Calvery's green skirt...

Alan ignores that Woman In All White is next to Calvery in both Zapruder and Darnell and pretends he is still arguing honestly...

Brian,

Woman-All-In-White was standing TWO people away from Calvery (in their clutch of headscarf-wearing colleagues-plus-one) in the Z-frame, and right next to her in Couch-Darnell.  The gal who'd stood between them in the Z-frame (can't  recall her name at the moment) evidently decided to boogie back to the TSBD by a more circuitous and time-consuming route than up the sidewalk with Calvery and Woman-In-All-White, i.e., up the grassy slope, out one of rear exits, and down the Elm Street Extension like a bat out of you-know-where.

Regarding Allan Ford, one can only wonder whether or not he ever found the blown-up  Willis 5 frame I referred him to (one assumes that he did, and that he's simply too prideful/defensive/arrogant to admit that I was right -- i.e., that "his" putative Cavelry wasn't  wearing a headscarf that afternoon and therefore should not be mistaken for the real Gloria Calvery, who was), and whether or not he was able to make out the DARK HEADSCARF "our" (largish, tallish) Calvery was wearing in Darnell, not to mention one of the bold-and-dark HORIZONTAL STRIPES (so plainly visible in the Z-film) in Calvery's skirt, which skirt, with stripe, is visible' -- but only just -- in blown-up crops of Darnell.

-- Tommy  :)

PS  Relax, Brian.  Like Running Woman, I'm  about three steps ahead of you.

EDIT:  I believe that mysto gal (who was standing between Calvery and WIAW in the Z-film, and who soon became "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell) has been shown to have been a Ms Peggy THORNTON, or some-such thing ...


Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 12:06:38 AM
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-------------------Mr Joe Molina's testimony gives to understand that Ms Calvery's arrival at the front of the Depository building was significantly later than Messrs. Shelley, Lovelady & Frazier would have us believe, and certainly well after Mr Truly entered the building

Mr Joe Molina is a particularly valuable witness because he was fired from the Depository on December 13 and so can have had no residual loyalty to the place that had shown him none. Hardly the man to follow a Truly-imposed script!

Mr. Molina. I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.
(...)
Mr. BALL. (...) did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. Molina. I saw him go in.
Mr. Ball. Where were you standing?
Mr. Molina. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. Ball. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. Ball. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. Molina. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. Ball. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. Molina. Yeah.
Mr. Ball. You were still standing there?
Mr. Molina. Yes.
Mr. Ball. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. Molina. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. Ball. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. Molina. No.
Mr. Ball. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Molina. Yes.
Mr. Ball.  Did Gloria come up?
Mr.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball.   What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.


Event 1!: Mr Molina stands in front of the front door in shock--he watches Mr Truly run in past him
Event 2!! Mr Molina goes down and out to the grassy area
Event 3!!! Mr Molina goes back up the steps and into the lobby
Event 4!!!! Mr Molina gets talking in the lobby with Ms Gloria Calvery, who has just arrived

3-4 minutes from shooting to Gloria Calvery's arrrival at the front entrance? Sounds about right!  Thumb1:
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 12:11:04 AM
Thomas:   Alan isn't to be taken seriously...He says in one breath that he signs-on to Tall Woman being Calvery but then ignores that she is visibly taller and huskier than the woman he randomly points-out in the post shooting scene...Alan is like Bart...When soundly defeated by the evidence they both go out and sincerely pick a random person that grinds against the evidence in order to create a sidetrack away from a specific point they just lost badly...All we are doing here Mr Graves is falling for more sucker-bait from Alan that we are foolish enough to fall for by discussing...Alan will then do what he always does and answer with another outrageous diversion like his claim that Lovelady in Altgens is actually Molina...This sort of thing would get him thrown off other boards, which is why he doesn't do it over there...Alan ignores that his Calvery can't be the real one by her height alone...Plus he ignores that the known timing of Calvery running to the steps prohibits his Calvery from being the real one...Ford's Calvery is down by the Knoll long after Calvery ran back to the steps...When you point this out Alan doesn't answer it...

Nope, the woman labeled "Peggy Burney" in Zapruder is Running Woman, as is proven by her white blouse and black skirt (that Alan ignores no matter how many times you mention it)...I personally think she stayed behind in place and watched the limousine recede towards the underpass in shock to continue to view the event...She was focused and hadn't noticed or cared that Calvery and Woman In All White took off running...Once she finished watching the whole event she realized Calvery and Woman In All White had run back to the steps so she followed and was caught in Couch/Darnell as "Running Woman"...

You can see Calvery's scarf just emerge from behind the Secret Service Man's head in Willis 5...I don't know why you are referencing Willis 5...It is useless as far as what we are talking about and serves as a confusing, irrelevant diversion...

Quote
EDIT:  I believe that gal ("Running Woman") has been shown to have been a Ms Thornton, or some-such thing ...

Do us a favor and learn the evidence...In Zapruder Woman In All White is labeled "Betty Thornton"...Running Woman is labeled "Peggy Burney"...You are only helping Alan confuse the issue by getting basic elements of the evidence wrong...The woman labeled "Peggy Burney" in Zapruder has the exact matching white blouse and black skirt as Running Woman and is her...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 12:20:03 AM
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Regarding Allan Ford, one can only wonder whether or not he ever found the blown-up  *Willis 5* I referred him to (one assumes that he did, and that he's simply too prideful/defensive/arrogant to admit that I was right -- i.e., that "his" putative Cavelry wasn't  wearing a headscarf that afternoon and therefore should not  be mistaken for the real Calvery, who was),

:D

Mr Graves seems to be laboring under the unfortunate notion that Willis 5 was taken at the same time as this Couch frame!

(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)

Quote
and whether or not he was able to make out the DARK HEADSCARF "our" (largish, tallish) Calvery was wearing in Darnell, not to mention one of the bold-and-dark HORIZONTAL STRIPES (so plainly visible in the Z-film) in Calvery's skirt, which skirt, with stripe, is visible' -- but only just -- in blown-up crops of Darnell.

'But only just'? That's certainly one way of putting it!
To quote the leading specialist in the field:
'a smidgen of one of those stripes can barely be made out in a blow up'
I guess some people will see what they want to see  :D
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 12:21:40 AM
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And your evidence that Ms Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague were siamese twins is?

I note you haven't addressed the extreme tone contrast in Darnell. Ho hum!

(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)

Why-----------btw-----------does 'Gloria's' skirt trend sharply upwards from left to right? Could it be that you've been looking at this wrong?


Alan,

When you suggest that her skirt is oh-so-improbably "trending sharply upward," I believe you are conflating her skirt with the side of the face of the woman behind her.

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 12:28:31 AM
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Alan,

When you suggest that her skirt is oh-so-improbably "trending sharply upward," I believe you are conflating her skirt with the side of the face of the woman behind her.

-- Tommy  :)

I believe you are right, Mr Graves, and I happily concede the point!  Thumb1:

So------that teeny-tiny sliver of skirt that comes into view contains enough information for you to see the pattern of Ms Calvery's skirt?

(https://i.imgur.com/m4PiZWD.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)

Are you being serious?
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 12:32:19 AM
Alan is pretending he doesn't notice that Calvery being at the step in Darnell means she was only seconds away from the lobby and was seen headed that direction in Darnell...In order to make his twisting of the evidence work he has to ignore what we see in Darnell and its timing...

Alan isn't being honest here because Molina could have ducked in to the lobby briefly and encountered Calvery before going to the Knoll...Or Clavery could have stood outside with Woman In All White and not gone in until Molina returned from the Knoll...But if Alan were a more honest reader of evidence he would realize Molina described Calvery coming in with another woman...That woman was almost certainly Woman In All White and there you see her in Couch/Darnell headed with Calvery towards the lobby...Alan lacks the basic detective skill that tells you if Calvery were running back to the Depository hysterically she probably went right back in...

1)  Molina follows Truly and Baker in to the lobby after letting their priority entry precede him...

2)  He follows Baker & Truly in to the lobby while Calvery and Woman In All White continue their movement towards the Depository front door...

3)  Calvery and Woman In All White enter the lobby continuing their announcement that Kennedy had been shot where Molina sees them...

4)  Molina exits and heads up to the Knoll...

This makes much more sense because it follows the timing for Calvery that we can see in Couch/Darnell that Alan is ignoring...The Prayer Man people depend on a following of inaccurate testimony to make their false evidence work...Alan ignores that there is no photo or spoken evidence for this long delay by Calvery and Woman In All White...
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 12:40:11 AM
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I believe you are right, Mr Graves, and I happily concede the point!  Thumb1:

So------that teeny-tiny sliver of skirt that comes into view contains enough information for you to see the pattern of Ms Calvery's skirt?

Are you being serious?


YES...Who do you think you are fooling Mr Ford?...The argument was accompanied by a citation of the Woman In All White who is standing next to Calvery in both Zapruder and Darnell...You have ignored this each and every time it has been mentioned while pretending you are arguing honestly...

As you keep repeatedly ignoring while playing dumb and pretending you are asking sincere questions, the combination of the spoken testimony that places Calvery at the steps before Lovelady & Shelley left, along with the Woman In All White, along with Running Woman, as well as the matching top and plaid skirt, places the certainty of Graves' Calvery in the beyond reasonable doubt range and PROVES it...You are ignoring the converging evidence Mr Ford...You shouldn't be allowed to do that on a research site that considers itself serious or credible...
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 12:53:45 AM
Alan is a bad photo analyst...A talented photo analyst like myself can see the short-length top on Calvery at the steps that exactly matches the short-length top Calvery is wearing in Zapruder...You can see it plain as day in Couch/Darnell when sized against the plaid skirt...

You're done Mr Ford...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 01:09:54 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/5r1xk79.jpg)

Mr Shelley makes a big deal of the encounter with Ms Calvery, making sure to give her name, though omiting to mention that she's a close friend of his. (That might look a little too convenient.)

Point of the exercise: I was on the front steps, but I left them very quickly!

Something makes Mr Shelley change this simple story, and, with cooperation from Mr Lovelady, even add in a visit to the railroad yard.

Could it have been 'the other girl' whom Mr Molina mentions in his WC testimony? Did she prove a complicating factor?

Remember, remember-------Mr Shelley can neither know nor control who will be interviewed or called to testify by the WC! He can no doubt trust Ms Calvery to back him up should it come to it, but 'the other girl'?
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 01:28:41 AM
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Thomas:   Alan isn't to be taken seriously...He says in one breath that he signs-on to Tall Woman being Calvery but then ignores that she is visibly taller and huskier than the woman he randomly points-out in the post shooting scene...Alan is like Bart...When soundly defeated by the evidence they both go out and sincerely pick a random person that grinds against the evidence in order to create a sidetrack away from a specific point they just lost badly...All we are doing here Mr Graves is falling for more sucker-bait from Alan that we are foolish enough to fall for by discussing...Alan will then do what he always does and answer with another outrageous diversion like his claim that Lovelady in Altgens is actually Molina...This sort of thing would get him thrown off other boards, which is why he doesn't do it over there...Alan ignores that his Calvery can't be the real one by her height alone...Plus he ignores that the known timing of Calvery running to the steps prohibits his Calvery from being the real one...Ford's Calvery is down by the Knoll long after Calvery ran back to the steps...When you point this out Alan doesn't answer it...

Nope, the woman labeled "Peggy Burney" in Zapruder is Running Woman, as is proven by her white blouse and black skirt (that Alan ignores no matter how many times you mention it)...I personally think she stayed behind in place and watched the limousine recede towards the underpass in shock to continue to view the event...She was focused and hadn't noticed or cared that Calvery and Woman In All White took off running...Once she finished watching the whole event she realized Calvery and Woman In All White had run back to the steps so she followed and was caught in Couch/Darnell as "Running Woman"...

You can see Calvery's scarf just emerge from behind the Secret Service Man's head in Willis 5...I don't know why you are referencing Willis 5...It is useless as far as what we are talking about and serves as a confusing, irrelevant diversion...

Do us a favor and learn the evidence...In Zapruder Woman In All White is labeled "Betty Thornton"...Running Woman is labeled "Peggy Burney"...You are only helping Alan confuse the issue by getting basic elements of the evidence wrong...The woman labeled "Peggy Burney" in Zapruder has the exact matching white blouse and black skirt as Running Woman and is her...


Brian,

Yes, you're right -- Thornton has been identified as "Woman In All White" by somebody (you???), not as "Running Woman".

My bad.

I was going from memory, Brian, always a dangerous thing to do when it comes to the JFK assassination, yes?

That's why I qualified it by saying, "I believe ...".

Did you happen to catch that?

When are you going to drop the off-putting, arrogant attitude, Brian? 

...
...

As regards my "confusing, irrelevant, diverting" post, above, do you really think my explication of how Alan's "Calvary" could be easily determined by anyone to not be who he thinks she is ... by simply finding and looking at the person in question in that particular blown-up Willis 5 frame which is viewable at the EF?

Really?

Would you rather that I hadn't, so that Alan could continue to derail this thread and deflect our points by expounding on his spurious "Hey, Maybe This Is Calvery!" theory?

LOL

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 01:34:20 AM
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I believe you are right, Mr Graves, and I happily concede the point!  Thumb1:

So------that teeny-tiny sliver of skirt that comes into view contains enough information for you to see the pattern of Ms Calvery's skirt?

(https://i.imgur.com/m4PiZWD.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)

Are you being serious?


Alan,

You ask, "Are you being serious?"

I retort, "Have you had your eyes checked within the last ten years, Alan?"

-- Tommy  :)

PS  Got any relatively good-resolution, cropped blow-ups of the subject matter in question, or only this fleeting, moving, hard-to-focus-in-on-so-quickly one (the Darnell gif?
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
Ms Gloria Calvery could be pretty much anywhere at the time Darnell is filming the front steps.

For instance, this could be her, some 25 seconds after the shooting, in a spot very close to where she had been for that shooting:

(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)

No reason this can't be her. At least we can see more than a flickering sliver of this woman's skirt, and it fits what we see in Zapruder.

No reason either she can't be lost in the crowd elsewhere!

What counts is that Mr Molina's testimony explicitly rules out her loud arrival at the Depository entrance before Mr Roy Truly's  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 01:38:42 AM
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Alan,

You ask, "Are you being serious?"

I retort, "Have you had your eyes checked within the last ten years, Alan?"

-- Tommy  :)

I wish I had your eyesight, Mr Graves-------------why, it's so sharp you can see things that aren't even there!  :D
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 01:46:38 AM
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Ms Gloria Calvery could be pretty much anywhere at the time Darnell is filming the front steps.

For instance, this could be her, some 25 seconds after the shooting, in a spot very close to where she had been for that shooting:

(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)

No reason this can't be her. At least we can see more than a flickering sliver of this woman's skirt, and it fits what we see in Zapruder.

No reason either she can't be lost in the crowd elsewhere!

What counts is that Mr Molina's testimony explicitly rules out her loud arrival at the Depository entrance before Mr Roy Truly's  Thumb1:

Alan,

So, you simply can't ken Calvery's bulk, height, black blouse (meeting her neutral-colored skirt in exactly the same way), her black head scarf, the same dark horizontal line in her skirt, and the "synchronicity"-if-you-will of her all-in-white colleague's just happening to be there ... next to her?  In Darnell, I mean?

And you STILL haven't found that blown-up Willis 5 at the EF, have you.

-- Tommy :)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 01:50:23 AM
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Alan,

So, you simply can't ken Calvery's bulk, height, black blouse (meeting her neutral-colored skirt in exactly the same way), her black head scarf, the same dark horizontal line in her skirt, and the "synchronicity"-if-you-will of her all-in-white colleague's just happening to be there ... next to her?  In Darnell, I mean?

-- Tommy :)

We don't know that's her colleague, Mr Graves!
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 01:51:12 AM
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And you STILL haven't found that blown-up Willis 5 at the EF, have you.

-- Tommy :)

Willis 5? Irrelevant!
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 02:00:29 AM
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We don't know that's her colleague, Mr Graves!

Alan,

Let's see (pardon the pun and I'm going from memory, here) --  Calvery worked in the TSBD.  She told the FBI that she'd watched the motorcade with some of her colleagues.  We can see in the Z-film that she's standing with a group of women, and that they're all wearing a headscarf, herself included.  One of the four or five women she's watching the motorcade with is easy to discern in any other photographs or films that she might be in in Dealy Plaza that afternoon because she's the only woman who's wearing a white dress and a white headscarf. Lo and behold, this same all-white woman is "capured" in Darnell while walking right next to a largish woman whose size and apparel look suspiciously like the Gloria Calvery Sandy Larsen, Brian Doyle, and I have discovered in the Z-film and in Betzner 3.

Go figure.

LOL

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 02:21:26 AM
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Alan,

Let's see (pardon the pun and I'm going from memory, here) --  Calvery worked in the TSBD.

Agreed! Thumb1: 

Quote
She told the FBI that she'd watched the motorcade with some of her colleagues.  We can see in the Z-film that she's standing with a group of women, and that they're all wearing a headscarf, herself included.

Agreed!  Thumb1:

Quote
One of the four or five women she's watching the motorcade with is easy to discern in any other photographs or films that she might be in in Dealey Plaza that afternoon because she's the only woman who's wearing a white dress and a white headscarf.

Not agreed...  :(
We don't know that she's the only woman dressed like that in Dealey Plaza! The photographic record is maddeningly partial.

Quote
Lo and behold, this same all-white woman

That's a big assumption you're making there, Mr Graves!

Quote
is "capured" in Darnell while walking right next to a largish woman whose size and apparel look suspiciously like the Gloria Calvery Sandy Larsen, Brian Doyle, and I have discovered in the Z-film and in Betzner 3.

I don't think she looks suspiciously like Ms Calvery. She could be anyone!

Did Ms Calvery and Ms All-In-White ever say they made an extraordinarily fast dash to the Depository building? (Heavens, they even beat Officer Baker!)

How can you be sure that the two ladies in Darnell even know each other?

Even if Ms All-In-White really is the same woman, why can't she have made the dash on her own?

Finally, have you read Mr Joe Molina's testimony? He saw Mr Truly run in past him, then he went out to the grassy area, then he went into the lobby, then Ms Calvery came in. Mr Molina explicitly states that no one came up crying out information before Mr Truly's entry.

Some fine detective work on Betzner & Zapruder (I mean that sincerely!), but way too many assumptions here IMO...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 04:13:47 AM
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I wish I had your eyesight, Mr Graves-------------why, it's so sharp you can see things that aren't even there!  :D



Alan,

With all due respect, speaking of my alleged lack of visual acuity (or my overly fanciful imagination - lol), maybe you should ask Forum-member Robert Prudhome to tell you how I spotted, on a EF thread, the partial silhouette of a woman's face only just "peeking out" from behind the head of another woman in Altgens 6, and how I had to tell him exactly how to look for it in order to "discover" it / "see" it (the partial outline of her face, that is) ...

-- Tommy  :)

PS  If you were only a little more open-minded, I could probably help even you to see the obviously bold, dark (but fuzzy in the poor resolution Darnell frames at that distance) horizontal stripe in that (non-trending-upward-on-the-right) sliver of Calvery's skirt -- but not in a GIF, dude, in a blown-up, non-moving frame.

(But then again, seein' as how you couldn't even "see" the photo I was referring you to that Clive Largey had posted on page 5 of Prudhome's EF thread, probably not ...)

LOL

Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 05:06:12 AM
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No reason this can't be her.

No none at all except the repeated irrefutable reasons of - She isn't tall enough...Her skirt is too dark...And she is at the Knoll long after Calvery was known to have run back to the front steps...Alan ignores the contradicting evidence, plays dumb, and repeats his impossible suggestion in order to derail the thread away from the other evidence that disproved him...

Calvery is not Alan's random choice, that he is vandalizing the thread with, because our other evidence, that Alan is ignoring, already proved Calvery is the person Graves discovered on the steps...

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At least we can see more than a flickering sliver of this woman's skirt, and it fits what we see in Zapruder.

It does not at all...The skirt on this random woman is too dark to be the light shade we see on the real Calvery in both Zapruder and Darnell...Alan is playing children's games here because he doesn't want to admit Graves' discovery of Calvery at the steps proves Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton...

Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 05:12:09 AM
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Brian,

Yes, you're right -- Thornton has been identified as "Woman In All White" by somebody (you???), not as "Running Woman".

My bad.

I was going from memory, Brian, always a dangerous thing to do when it comes to the JFK assassination, yes?

That's why I qualified it by saying, "I believe ...".

Did you happen to catch that?

When are you going to drop the off-putting, arrogant attitude, Brian? 

...
...

As regards my "confusing, irrelevant, diverting" post, above, do you really think my explication of how Alan's "Calvary" could be easily determined by anyone to not be who he thinks she is ... by simply finding and looking at the person in question in that particular blown-up Willis 5 frame which is viewable at the EF?

Really?

Would you rather that I hadn't, so that Alan could continue to derail this thread and deflect our points by expounding on his spurious "Hey, Maybe This Is Calvery!" theory?

LOL

-- Tommy  :)

I'm glad you're having fun encouraging the "spurious" Alan (I have other words Duncan won't let me use)...

You're not answering the point Thomas...Once you sort out Peggy Burney and Betty Thornton those are the two women who headed back to the steps with Calvery...It proves they were a group and stayed together, which only helps to solidify the already proven identification of Calvery at the steps...

Some say that Roberdeau placed the names on those persons in Zapruder...I have no evidence that he did...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 05:23:14 AM
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No none at all except the repeated irrefutable reasons of - She isn't tall enough...Her skirt is too dark...And she is at the Knoll long after Calvery was known to have run back to the front steps...Alan ignores the contradicting evidence, plays dumb, and repeats his impossible suggestion in order to derail the thread away from the other evidence that disproved him...

Calvery is not Alan's random choice that he is vandalizing the thread with because our other evidence that Alan is ignoring already proved Calvery is the person Graves discovered on the steps...

It does not at all...The skirt on this random woman is too dark to be the light shade we see on the real Calvery in both Zapruder and Darnell...Alan is playing children's games here because he doesn't want to admit Graves' discovery of Calvery at the steps proves Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton...

Brian,

You're right about Alan's putative "Calvery," of course.  If he had gone to that blown-up crop of Willis 5 on the EF, he would have seen the same woman in that frame, and he would have realized that she was not only quite thin, but also that she was not wearing a headscarf that afternoon.

Regardless, ... and regardless of the fact that I don't mean to undercut your credibility on this fine forum too much (lol), on further reflection the other day, and with a little "research within research," I came to the realization (I think) that although I was the first to spot "Big Girl" Calvery in the Z-film and in Betzner 3, it was Sandy Larsen who first spotted her on the steps in Couch-Darnell.

They way I see it, I'm so famous / notorious already that it doesn't really hurt me / help me significantly to "give credit where credit is due," even in the cutthroat world of ... gasp ... JFK Assassination Research.

LOL

Thanks anyway,

(I think)

-- Tommy  :)
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 05:30:21 AM
FORD IGNORED THE BELOW

Alan is a bad photo analyst...A talented photo analyst like myself can see the short-length top on Calvery at the steps that exactly matches the short-length top Calvery is wearing in Zapruder...You can see it plain as day in Couch/Darnell when sized against the plaid skirt...

You're done Mr Ford...

(Take a look, Thomas, at the length of Calvery's top...It is noticeably short-cut and cuts off high on the waist by the skirt...Look at the Calvery on the steps and you see the identical short-length top...Alan's done)
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 02, 2018, 06:09:10 AM
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FORD IGNORED THE BELOW

Alan is a bad photo analyst...A talented photo analyst like myself can see the short-length top on Calvery at the steps that exactly matches the short-length top Calvery is wearing in Zapruder...You can see it plain as day in Couch/Darnell when sized against the plaid skirt...

You're done Mr Ford...

(Take a look, Thomas, at the length of Calvery's top...It is noticeably short-cut and cuts off high on the waist by the skirt...Look at the Calvery on the steps and you see the identical short-length top ... ...)

Brian "Eagle Eye" Doyle,

Believe it or not, I'd already noticed that a long time ago (and actually commented on it a few posts back -- maybe I didn't articulate it very well).

But hey, people actually applauded when I sang "Hey Joe" (and "Hotel California") on a regular basis for an excellent band called "Traffic Jam" at Molly's Irish Pub in Brno, Czech Republic, back around 1999.

I knew that would finally impress you favorably ...

LOL

-- Tommy  :)

PS  No need for any of you Obsessively Sceptical/Contrarian Conspiracy Theorists out there to "research" that.  Last time I checked on the Net a couple of years ago, "Molly's Irish Pub" on Ceska Street no longer existed.  As I recall, it was in the Hotel Avion building, or some such thing ... 

Go ahead and knock yourselves out, now. LOL!

Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 12:16:33 PM
Now!

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.


It is----------let us remind ourselves-----------passing strange that we have gone from Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady's same-day statements to the above.

Here's what's in those same-day statements:

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building." (Bill Shelley affidavit, 11/22/63)
-----------No room for ambiguity here: he met his good friend Ms Calvery out at 'the corner of the park'!

"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELL(E)Y started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the Triple Underpass." (Billy Lovelady FBI report, 11/22/63).
-----------No room for ambiguity here: the pair left the steps very quickly indeed!

On any scenario------------Ms Calvery dashed back to the Depository before Officer Baker got there; Ms Calvery took some time to reach the Depository; Ms Calvery met Mr Shelley on the 'island' but Mr Lovelady at the steps; etc.----------no serious person could doubt that Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady are in cahoots to hide something from the WC.

Passing strange also is the pair's similarly elastic time estimate of how long their supposed visit to the railroad yard took.

Passing strange also also is the fact that Mr Lovelady shows up------contrary to every impression his statements have given-------on the front steps several minutes later in the Hughes film.

There must be serious doubt over whether Mr Shelley was actually on those steps when the motorcade was passing.

Did Mr Shelley hear after the assassination that Ms Calvery had come to the steps loudly telling everyone about what she'd seen? Did Mr Lovelady tell hm? Did he then decide to profit from the fact that he and Ms Calvery were good friends by inventing an encounter with her that would lend extra credibility to his own story of having been on the steps? And did this initial lie come back to haunt him?  :-X

Most importantly of all! Why would he have been so anxious to place himself out on the steps at the time of the assassination?

I can't help wondering whether the key to this might not lie in the words Captain Fritz cribbed from Agent Bookhout:
'out with Bill Shelley in front'

Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 12:39:48 PM
Alternatively!

Mr Shelley was on those steps for the assassination, but immediately slipped back inside, and was one of the "several people standing around" in the front lobby seen by Officer Baker (Affidavit, 11/22/63) when he dashed into the building.*

Did Mr Shelley see something there in the vestibule he shouldn't have? Did his boss Mr Truly later that day prevail upon him to 'stay the hell outside' in the story he told to the authorities?


*Note that Mr Roy Truly would contradict Baker when talking to the FBI: "They saw no one there (in the front lobby, AF)"!
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 04:25:00 PM
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Brian "Eagle Eye" Doyle,

Believe it or not, I'd already noticed that a long time ago (and actually commented on it a few posts back -- maybe I didn't articulate it very well).

But hey, people actually applauded when I sang "Hey Joe" (and "Hotel California") on a regular basis for an excellent band called "Traffic Jam" at Molly's Irish Pub in Brno, Czech Republic, back around 1999.

I knew that would finally impress you favorably ...

LOL

-- Tommy  :)

PS  No need for any of you Obsessively Sceptical/Contrarian Conspiracy Theorists out there to "research" that.  Last time I checked on the Net a couple of years ago, "Molly's Irish Pub" on Ceska Street no longer existed.  As I recall, it was in the Hotel Avion building, or some such thing ... 

Go ahead and knock yourselves out, now. LOL!

Thomas:   Can we agree that Alan is contemptuously ignoring photographic proof that can be seen with the naked eye that Calvery on the steps possesses the exact same visible short-length sweater top that can be seen on Calvery in the Zapruder motorcade spectators?

This photographic proof is reinforced by Lovelady and Frazier's statements that Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they left the steps...Which was about 3 seconds before the start of the Couch/Darnell film clip?

Can we agree that Alan is dishonestly trying to force Shelley's misidentification of Calvery at the concrete island despite the film evidence that shows Shelley speaking to Running Woman and not Calvery as he went past that spot in the Couch/Darnell film? (Remember, these evidence gremlins have Jim D's full recommendation)...

Can we agree that Lovelady and Frazier's witnessing of Lovelady & Shelley speaking to Clavery at the steps before going up the extension is confirmed by the film evidence and Calvery's being identified as being at the steps in Darnell and therefore over-rules Alan's false forcing of Shelley's erroneous identification of Calvery at the concrete island?

 Can we agree that Alan's contemptuous ignoring of Calvery's short-length sweater dismisses him from credibility and therefore participation in serious discussion?
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 02, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
Question!

Would one be right in saying that 'Gloria Calvery's' left hand is on the column in the Darnell frames?

(https://i.imgur.com/4x8B7aa.jpg)
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 02, 2018, 08:21:51 PM
Alan is trying to switch the topic from the germane evidence again...However I believe he is calling the woman on the steps Calvery in his last post - which she is...So, in other words, Alan has wasted several months of our time and has finally come around to what I was saying in the first place...

Kamp is using his interview with Judith McCully's daughter to divert attention from the main evidence...He says our claim that Calvery is at the step is "malarkey" and that his false identification of Stanton is "common sense"...Never mind the proof of the short-length sweater matching Tall Woman and Calvery at the steps perfectly...Not to mention the matching green plaid skirt...None of this is worth mention by K and his group even though it proves Calvery is at the step in Darnell...The way to tell correct evidence is how the Prayer Man people refuse to mention it on their sites...

Kamp also ignores all the proof that his Stanton couldn't possibly be the real one...Frazier and Pauline Sanders said Stanton was on the landing platform...Kamp's Stanton is several steps down...Frazier made clear that he and Sarah were "Furthest back into the shadows"...Kamp's Stanton is in full sun...One look at Darnell shows Frazier and Prayer Man being the two people who were furthest back in to the shadows...Kamp outright ignores Frazier's locating of Sarah in relation to Calvery by denying Calvery's proven position on the steps in Darnell...

God forbid that any of Kamp's sycophants would ever ask him "Didn't Frazier and Lovelady both say Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they left the steps?" God forbid they would point-out to Kamp that he himself discovered the evidence that the two men going up the extension were Lovelady & Shelley so therefore Calvery is already at the steps in Darnell according to this witnessing...

Kamp plain ignores that the women seen by the curb in the spectators in Wiegman can't be on the west side of the steps in Darnell because we have matched their clothing to Woman In All White and Calvery...Kamp ignores this firm proof and therefore assigns himself to the Fetzer-Cinque classification of JFK research...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 05:19:49 AM
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Alternatively!

Mr Shelley was on those steps for the assassination, but immediately slipped back inside, and was one of the "several people standing around" in the front lobby seen by Officer Baker (Affidavit, 11/22/63) when he dashed into the building.*

Did Mr Shelley see something there in the vestibule he shouldn't have? Did his boss Mr Truly later that day prevail upon him to 'stay the hell outside' in the story he told to the authorities?


*Note that Mr Roy Truly would contradict Baker when talking to the FBI: "They saw no one there (in the front lobby, AF)"!

Friends, it would appear that the bind Messrs Shelley and Lovelady find themselves in as they appear before the WC comes down to the following:

1. They have to include Ms Gloria Calvery's telling of what she's just seen out on the street
VS
2. They have to be down and away from those steps before Messrs Truly and Baker enter the Depository.

This leads them into the absurd 3-4 minute estimate for the latter!

Something is stopping them from simply sticking to Mr Shelley's original story (Affidavit 11/22/63) of running into Ms Calvery out at the corner of the 'park'.

It cannot be Ms Vickie Adams------------if the re-entry to the Depository building needs to be made as late as possible in order to discredit Ms Adams, then a couple of extra minutes can easily be added to their (supposed) railroad yard foray.

No, something else is forcing them into the Truly/Baker @ 3-4 minute lie...
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 03, 2018, 07:58:55 AM
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Friends, it would appear that the bind Messrs Shelley and Lovelady find themselves in as they appear before the WC comes down to the following:

1. They have to include Ms Gloria Calvery's telling of what she's just seen out on the street
VS
2. They have to be down and away from those steps before Messrs Truly and Baker enter the Depository.

This leads them into the absurd 3-4 minute estimate for the latter!

Something is stopping them from simply sticking to Mr Shelley's original story (Affidavit 11/22/63) of running into Ms Calvery out at the corner of the 'park'.

It cannot be Ms Vickie Adams------------if the re-entry to the Depository building needs to be made as late as possible in order to discredit Ms Adams, then a couple of extra minutes can easily be added to their (supposed) railroad yard foray.

No, something else is forcing them into the Truly/Baker @ 3-4 minute lie...

Rubbish...It could have been an attempt to give Oswald more time to get down to the lunch room...And it would have also served to discredit Victoria Adams...The reason could be an attempt to conceal Shelley's seeing Oswald in the Domino Room after they returned...It could still be Victoria Adams and they simply chose to add the 3 minutes to the front end...

Ford is slowly coming around to the fact the 3 minute claim is false as proven by Couch/Darnell...Good, all he has to do now is input the correct 25-30 second time for Lovelady & Shelley's departure in combination with Calvery's correct location on the steps...Typical of Ford he is giving hints of finally coming around to the fact the woman on the steps with Calvery's plaid skirt and short-length sweater is Calvery but is not committing to information he knows disproves him...Now all he has to do is connect that correct location of Calvery to Frazier's locating of Stanton in relation to Calvery and we are home as far as proving Prayer Man's identity...

Ford is still ignoring Calvery's short-length sweater that proves she is at the steps in Darnell...
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 11:45:27 PM
Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.


Was one of these white men Mr Bill Shelley?

Read the testimony of Mr Eddie Piper and Mr Troy West and you get a sense of just how toxic that shipping floor seems to have been to the official story!
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 03, 2018, 11:52:18 PM
There is definitely someone behind Mr Billy Lovelady here just as the President is coming onto Elm Street.

(https://i.imgur.com/hmkgboJ.gif)

Is this somebody Prayer Man or----------perhaps-----------Mr Bill Shelley?

If the latter, then Hughes would appear to be showing us the scene as remembered by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier in his WC testimony:

Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 04, 2018, 12:28:11 AM
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Mr Freeman, I'm merely suggesting that taking Mr Shelley off those steps explains a number of problems with his story. As to where that leads, well how about we start with the question, Why would he lie about this?--------and see where it takes us... 

After this many posts...where did it take us? Where is it proven that Shelley actually lied? He could have simply been mistaken or had a failure to recall....like a lot of top cops did.
 
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Alan Ford on December 04, 2018, 12:58:33 AM
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After this many posts...where did it take us? Where is it proven that Shelley actually lied? He could have simply been mistaken or had a failure to recall....like a lot of top cops did.

Yes, that's what the LNers would say alright!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 04, 2018, 04:35:06 AM
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Yes, that's what the LNers would say alright!  Thumb1:
Oh cut the crap. Answer the questions. You started this thread.
 Where did all this it take us? Where is it proven that Shelley actually lied? Are you suggesting that he was involved? Quit beating around the bush.
 
Title: Bill Shelley on Steps
Post by: Brian Doyle on December 04, 2018, 05:35:54 AM
Jerry...Alan is essentially trolling...Yes, the image Alan shows from the Hughes film does match Frazier's testimony...When placed in the correct context it shows how Frazier located people from different time periods in the portal...It was before this time that Frazier placed Stanton to his left...

What really matters is the time period in Darnell...Alan is playing games and avoiding the precise time period of Darnell because it comes in in our favor...During that pertinent time period that Alan is now trying to lead us away from Lovelady placed Stanton in the Prayer Man spot and Shelley was seen going up the Elm St extension with Lovelady...

We know Shelley is on the steps in Altgens because we can see him in his dark suit and tie...

Proof that Alan is not here for serious purposes is his evasion of the short-length sweater seen on Calvery in Zapruder...The identical short-length sweater is seen on Calvery at the steps and makes a positive match...Alan won't admit this because he is aware it proves our case and therefore refutes his own...Alan is not here to honestly admit evidence...