JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on December 01, 2018, 01:56:58 AM
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A bit of assistance needed!
Who--------apart from Mr Billy Lovelady, Mr Buell Wesley Frazier and Ms Sarah Stanton---------mentioned seeing Mr Bill Shelley on the Depository front steps during the motorcade?
Thanking you! Thumb1:
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Curious...why would it matter where Shelley was?
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Curious...why would it matter where Shelley was?
It could matter very much indeed!
I'm troubled by a number of things, starting with.............
-------------in his March 1964 FBI statement, Mr Shelley erroneously puts Carolyn Arnold on the front steps for the motorcade
-------------in his Warren Commission testimony, he erroneously puts Lloyd Viles on the front steps for the motorcade
-------------his own account of his movements post-assassination are wildly inconsistent
-------------the person with whom he says he had an exchange out on the 'island' just happens to be the woman at whose wedding he was best man a few months ago (= Ms Gloria Calvery)
-------------he cannot be confidently identified in any assassination or aftermath photos
-------------we get inconsistent statements as to his position on the steps from Mr Lovelady and Mr Frazier
-------------his claim that he saw Mr Truly and Officer Baker "fixin' to" run into the Depository building some 3+ minutes (!) after the shooting sounds like an invented 'memory'
Did Mr Shelley put in an appearance on the steps several minutes before the motorcade, notice Mr Lloyd Viles and Ms Carolyn Arnold in the area, get noticed by Ms Stanton, and then go back in the building?
Did Mr Lovelady and Mr Frazier cover for him?
Is it possible that the explanation for the 3+ minutes nonsense had nothing to do with Ms Vickie Adams and everything to do with Ms Gloria Calvery?
Just thinking out loud here! Thumb1:
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Alan, Could you please expound?
Yes please do. Are you suggesting that Mr Shelley was involved in the assassination?
Alan Ford..... Just thinking out loud here!
Understand that 'thoughts' can seem convoluted unless a specific implication is provided.
So what are we getting at here with Shelley?
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Yes please do. Are you suggesting that Mr Shelley was involved in the assassination?
Alan Ford.....Understand that 'thoughts' can seem convoluted unless a specific implication is provided.
So what are we getting at here with Shelley?
Mr Freeman, I'm merely suggesting that taking Mr Shelley off those steps explains a number of problems with his story.
As to where that leads, well how about we start with the question, Why would he lie about this?--------and see where it takes us... Thumb1:
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Mr. SHELLEY. He (Eddie Piper) was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Has Mr Shelley slipped up here? How on earth could he have been on the first floor himself in time to see this? ???
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Mr Graves, the ID of Ms Calvery in Betzner & Zapruder looks solid to me, but not the one in Darnell.
My tentative thinking re. Ms Calvery's being the reason for Mr Shelley's distended sense of time
-------------------Mr Joe Molina's testimony gives to understand that Ms Calvery's arrival at the front of the Depository building was significantly later than Messrs. Shelley, Lovelady & Frazier would have us believe, and certainly well after Mr Truly entered the building
-------------------Mr Shelley chose Ms Calvery---a very good friend---to lend credibility to his contrived story of being in the area
-------------------This led to complications as soon as he established that she had not come back to the building for quite some time... hence the absurd 3+ minutes estimate of Mr Truly & Officer Baker's entry into the building
By 'aftermath' images I meant immediate aftermath. Up to the police car footage, Mr Shelley is The Invisible Man!
Alan,
I'd like to point out that the skirt Gloria Calvery is wearing in the Zapruder film has bold, dark, horizontal stripes in it, and that a smidgen of one of those stripes can barely be made out in a blow up of the sliver of the woman's skirt that's visible in Darnell.
That, and the fact that the woman in Darnell is, just like Calvery, wearing a black blouse and a black headscarf, and is in very close proximity to the only woman in Dealy Plaza that day who was wearing a white dress and a white headscarf, tells me that the woman in Darnell actually is Gloria Calvery.
Additionally, the fact that this woman we're talking about is facing the steps and speaking with a man on the steps jibes with Frazier's statement that after the assassination a crying girl "came by" and told some somebody on the steps that Kennedy had been shot.
-- Tommy :)
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Alan,
I'd like to point out that the skirt Gloria Calvery is wearing in the Zapruder film has bold, dark, horizontal stripes in it, and that a smidgen of one of those stripes can barely be made out in a blow up of the sliver of the woman's skirt that's visible in Darnell.
Not good enough, sorry!
How do you know this isn't Ms Calvery?
(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)
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Not good enough, sorry!
How do you know this isn't Ms Calvery?
(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)
Alan,
You mean the woman to the immediate left of the young lady wearing the red plaid skirt in the photo Clive Largey posted on page 5 of Bob Prudhome's JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum thread titled, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up To Marion Baker?"?
(Too bad this forum's rules prohibit my posting the link here.)
-- Tommy :)
PS For reference, that's "Hardhat Man" to the immediate left of your gal, above, and the above-mentioned young lady with the red plaid dress to his left."
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Alan,
You mean the woman to the immediate left of the young lady wearing the red plaid skirt in the photo Clive Largey posted on page 5 of Bob Prudhome's JFK Assassination Debate thread titled, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up To Marion Baker?"?
I mean the woman clearly marked with a red arrow, Mr Graves.
Why can't she be a candidate for Ms Calvery?
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Alan,
If you were to visually compare your photo and the EF photo I just now tried to refer you to (have you found it yet?), you'd see that "your Calvery" wasn't wearing a headscarf, and therefore couldn't have been Calvery (because Calvery is definitely wearing a headscarf in the Z-film and in Betzner 3.
Also, it would appear that Gloria Calvery was taller that your gal.
-- Tommy :)
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Alan,
If you were to visually compare your photo and the EF photo I just now tried to refer you to (have you found it yet?), and if you were to use that photo to help you find other photos (e.g., Altgens 6?) showing the same girl, you'd see that, unlike Calvery, she wasn't wearing a headscarf, and therefore couldn't have been Calvery (because Calvery is definitely wearing a headscarf in the Z-film (and in Betzner 3, iirc).
-- Tommy :)
Mr Graves, I can find no photo whatsoever from Mr Clive Largey on page 5 of that thread.
The skirt of 'Gloria Calvery' in Darnell is much lighter in tone than her top. Zapruder does not show such an extreme difference on Ms Calvery.
The Darnell ID is---------in short----------most fanciful!
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Mr Graves, I can find no photo whatsoever from Mr Clive Largey on page 5 of that thread.
The skirt of 'Gloria Calvery' in Darnell is much lighter in tone than her top. Zapruder does not show such an extreme difference on Ms Calvery.
The Darnell ID is---------in short----------most fanciful!
Alan,
1 ) Go to the JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum.
2 ) Find Robert Prudhomme's thread, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?"
3 ) Go to page 5 of said thread.
4 ) The photo/frame I'm talking about is in the second post from the top.
5 ) It was posted there by Clive Largey on September 2, 2015, (back when I foolishly thought that "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell might be Calvery, ergo my foolish comments on the thread).
6 ) According to the EF's automatic notations, this same (Willis 5) blow-up had apparently been posted one day earlier by Robert Prudhomme.
7 ) To reiterate what I told you in my earlier post,"your Calvery" is probably the gal standing to the immediate left of the girl wearing the red plaid skirt.
8 ) Note that although in this Willis 5 blow-up, the real Gloria Calvery is hidden behind the highest-standing Secret Service agent in the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, Calvery's dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague is visible, and that she has been labeled with the number "7" in this blown-up Willis 5 frame (if you can find it, that is -- lol).
Good luck,
-- Tommy :)
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8) Note that although in this Willis 5 blow-up, the real Gloria Calvery is hidden behind the highest-standing Secret Service agent in the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, Calvery's dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague is visible, and that she has been labeled with the number "7" in this blown-up Willis 5 frame (if you can find it -- lol).
And your evidence that Ms Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague were siamese twins is?
I note you haven't addressed the extreme tone contrast in Darnell. Ho hum!
(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)
Why-----------btw-----------does 'Gloria's' skirt trend sharply upwards from left to right? Could it be that you've been looking at this wrong?
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Alan,
1 ) Go to the JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum.
2 ) Find Robert Prudhomme's thread, "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?"
3 ) Go to page 5 of said thread.
4 ) The photo/frame (Willis 5 blow up, actually) I'm talking about is in the second post from the top.
5 ) It was posted there by Clive Largey on September 2, 2015, (back when I foolishly thought that "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell might be Calvery, ergo my foolish comments on the thread).
6 ) According to the EF's automatic notations, this same (Willis 5) blow-up had apparently been posted one day earlier by Robert Prudhomme.
7 ) To reiterate what I told you in my earlier post,"your Calvery" is probably the gal standing to the immediate left of the girl wearing the red plaid skirt in this Willis 5 blow-up.
8 ) Note that although in this Willis 5 blow-up the real Gloria Calvery is hidden behind the highest-standing Secret Service agent in the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, Calvery's dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague is visible, and that she has been labeled with the number "7" in this blown-up Willis 5 frame (if you can find it, that is -- lol).
Good luck,
-- Tommy :)
EDIT:
Once you've found that thread at the EF, I suggest that you also take a look at the labeled-by-Chris Davidson Z-frame (number 72) in his second post (the eleventh one down from the top; click on it -- it gets really big) ON PAGE 1.
In my humble opinion, "your Calvery" has been labeled "4" in that frame, and the gal wearing the red plaid skirt (whom Chris and I thought might be Running Girl/Calvery) is partially hidden behind her (and is labeled "3").
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EDIT:
Once you've found that thread at the EF, I suggest that you also take a look at the labeled-by-Chris Davidson Z-frame (number 72) in his post (the eleventh one down from the top) ON PAGE 1.
In my humble opinion, "your Calvery" has been labeled "4" in that frame, and the gal wearing the red plaid skirt (whom Chris and I thought might be Running Girl/Calvery) is mostly hidden behind her, and is labeled "3".
I know the thread well, thank you Mr Graves, but it's not my job to do homework assignments set by you!
Now! How about you show us what you're talking about, e.g. your cross-referencing of 'my' Ms Calvery in Couch with 'Altgens etc', and then we can talk? Sound good? Thumb1:
Why do you still evade the issue of the tone contrast between Darnell-Gloria's upper and lower body? If Zapruder is anything to go by, it should look something like an upside-down version of this:
(https://i.imgur.com/YIqyGTR.jpg)
But it doesn't! It just looks ridiculous...
You did soopa-doopa work on the Betzner & Zapruder Calvery IDs, Mr Graves, but allowed yourself to get overexcited on Darnell. 2 out of 3 ain't bad ;)
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-------------------Mr Joe Molina's testimony gives to understand that Ms Calvery's arrival at the front of the Depository building was significantly later than Messrs. Shelley, Lovelady & Frazier would have us believe, and certainly well after Mr Truly entered the building
Mr Joe Molina is a particularly valuable witness because he was fired from the Depository on December 13 and so can have had no residual loyalty to the place that had shown him none. Hardly the man to follow a Truly-imposed script!
Mr. Molina. I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.
(...)
Mr. BALL. (...) did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. Molina. I saw him go in.
Mr. Ball. Where were you standing?
Mr. Molina. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. Ball. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. Ball. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. Molina. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. Ball. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. Molina. Yeah.
Mr. Ball. You were still standing there?
Mr. Molina. Yes.
Mr. Ball. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. Molina. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. Ball. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. Molina. No.
Mr. Ball. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Molina. Yes.
Mr. Ball. Did Gloria come up?
Mr.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. Ball. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
Event 1!: Mr Molina stands in front of the front door in shock--he watches Mr Truly run in past him
Event 2!! Mr Molina goes down and out to the grassy area
Event 3!!! Mr Molina goes back up the steps and into the lobby
Event 4!!!! Mr Molina gets talking in the lobby with Ms Gloria Calvery, who has just arrived
3-4 minutes from shooting to Gloria Calvery's arrrival at the front entrance? Sounds about right! Thumb1:
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Regarding Allan Ford, one can only wonder whether or not he ever found the blown-up *Willis 5* I referred him to (one assumes that he did, and that he's simply too prideful/defensive/arrogant to admit that I was right -- i.e., that "his" putative Cavelry wasn't wearing a headscarf that afternoon and therefore should not be mistaken for the real Calvery, who was),
:D
Mr Graves seems to be laboring under the unfortunate notion that Willis 5 was taken at the same time as this Couch frame!
(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)
and whether or not he was able to make out the DARK HEADSCARF "our" (largish, tallish) Calvery was wearing in Darnell, not to mention one of the bold-and-dark HORIZONTAL STRIPES (so plainly visible in the Z-film) in Calvery's skirt, which skirt, with stripe, is visible' -- but only just -- in blown-up crops of Darnell.
'But only just'? That's certainly one way of putting it!
To quote the leading specialist in the field:
'a smidgen of one of those stripes can barely be made out in a blow up'
I guess some people will see what they want to see :D
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And your evidence that Ms Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white-including-a-white-headscarf colleague were siamese twins is?
I note you haven't addressed the extreme tone contrast in Darnell. Ho hum!
(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)
Why-----------btw-----------does 'Gloria's' skirt trend sharply upwards from left to right? Could it be that you've been looking at this wrong?
Alan,
When you suggest that her skirt is oh-so-improbably "trending sharply upward," I believe you are conflating her skirt with the side of the face of the woman behind her.
-- Tommy :)
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Alan,
When you suggest that her skirt is oh-so-improbably "trending sharply upward," I believe you are conflating her skirt with the side of the face of the woman behind her.
-- Tommy :)
I believe you are right, Mr Graves, and I happily concede the point! Thumb1:
So------that teeny-tiny sliver of skirt that comes into view contains enough information for you to see the pattern of Ms Calvery's skirt?
(https://i.imgur.com/m4PiZWD.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)
Are you being serious?
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(https://i.imgur.com/5r1xk79.jpg)
Mr Shelley makes a big deal of the encounter with Ms Calvery, making sure to give her name, though omiting to mention that she's a close friend of his. (That might look a little too convenient.)
Point of the exercise: I was on the front steps, but I left them very quickly!
Something makes Mr Shelley change this simple story, and, with cooperation from Mr Lovelady, even add in a visit to the railroad yard.
Could it have been 'the other girl' whom Mr Molina mentions in his WC testimony? Did she prove a complicating factor?
Remember, remember-------Mr Shelley can neither know nor control who will be interviewed or called to testify by the WC! He can no doubt trust Ms Calvery to back him up should it come to it, but 'the other girl'?
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I believe you are right, Mr Graves, and I happily concede the point! Thumb1:
So------that teeny-tiny sliver of skirt that comes into view contains enough information for you to see the pattern of Ms Calvery's skirt?
(https://i.imgur.com/m4PiZWD.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/mLXkTet.gif)
Are you being serious?
Alan,
You ask, "Are you being serious?"
I retort, "Have you had your eyes checked within the last ten years, Alan?"
-- Tommy :)
PS Got any relatively good-resolution, cropped blow-ups of the subject matter in question, or only this fleeting, moving, hard-to-focus-in-on-so-quickly one (the Darnell gif?
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Ms Gloria Calvery could be pretty much anywhere at the time Darnell is filming the front steps.
For instance, this could be her, some 25 seconds after the shooting, in a spot very close to where she had been for that shooting:
(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)
No reason this can't be her. At least we can see more than a flickering sliver of this woman's skirt, and it fits what we see in Zapruder.
No reason either she can't be lost in the crowd elsewhere!
What counts is that Mr Molina's testimony explicitly rules out her loud arrival at the Depository entrance before Mr Roy Truly's Thumb1:
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Alan,
You ask, "Are you being serious?"
I retort, "Have you had your eyes checked within the last ten years, Alan?"
-- Tommy :)
I wish I had your eyesight, Mr Graves-------------why, it's so sharp you can see things that aren't even there! :D
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Ms Gloria Calvery could be pretty much anywhere at the time Darnell is filming the front steps.
For instance, this could be her, some 25 seconds after the shooting, in a spot very close to where she had been for that shooting:
(https://i.imgur.com/jFfcQw2.jpg)
No reason this can't be her. At least we can see more than a flickering sliver of this woman's skirt, and it fits what we see in Zapruder.
No reason either she can't be lost in the crowd elsewhere!
What counts is that Mr Molina's testimony explicitly rules out her loud arrival at the Depository entrance before Mr Roy Truly's Thumb1:
Alan,
So, you simply can't ken Calvery's bulk, height, black blouse (meeting her neutral-colored skirt in exactly the same way), her black head scarf, the same dark horizontal line in her skirt, and the "synchronicity"-if-you-will of her all-in-white colleague's just happening to be there ... next to her? In Darnell, I mean?
And you STILL haven't found that blown-up Willis 5 at the EF, have you.
-- Tommy :)
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Alan,
So, you simply can't ken Calvery's bulk, height, black blouse (meeting her neutral-colored skirt in exactly the same way), her black head scarf, the same dark horizontal line in her skirt, and the "synchronicity"-if-you-will of her all-in-white colleague's just happening to be there ... next to her? In Darnell, I mean?
-- Tommy :)
We don't know that's her colleague, Mr Graves!
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And you STILL haven't found that blown-up Willis 5 at the EF, have you.
-- Tommy :)
Willis 5? Irrelevant!
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I wish I had your eyesight, Mr Graves-------------why, it's so sharp you can see things that aren't even there! :D
Alan,
With all due respect, speaking of my alleged lack of visual acuity (or my overly fanciful imagination - lol), maybe you should ask Forum-member Robert Prudhome to tell you how I spotted, on a EF thread, the partial silhouette of a woman's face only just "peeking out" from behind the head of another woman in Altgens 6, and how I had to tell him exactly how to look for it in order to "discover" it / "see" it (the partial outline of her face, that is) ...
-- Tommy :)
PS If you were only a little more open-minded, I could probably help even you to see the obviously bold, dark (but fuzzy in the poor resolution Darnell frames at that distance) horizontal stripe in that (non-trending-upward-on-the-right) sliver of Calvery's skirt -- but not in a GIF, dude, in a blown-up, non-moving frame.
(But then again, seein' as how you couldn't even "see" the photo I was referring you to that Clive Largey had posted on page 5 of Prudhome's EF thread, probably not ...)
LOL
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Now!
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
It is----------let us remind ourselves-----------passing strange that we have gone from Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady's same-day statements to the above.
Here's what's in those same-day statements:
"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building." (Bill Shelley affidavit, 11/22/63)
-----------No room for ambiguity here: he met his good friend Ms Calvery out at 'the corner of the park'!
"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELL(E)Y started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the Triple Underpass." (Billy Lovelady FBI report, 11/22/63).
-----------No room for ambiguity here: the pair left the steps very quickly indeed!
On any scenario------------Ms Calvery dashed back to the Depository before Officer Baker got there; Ms Calvery took some time to reach the Depository; Ms Calvery met Mr Shelley on the 'island' but Mr Lovelady at the steps; etc.----------no serious person could doubt that Messrs. Shelley and Lovelady are in cahoots to hide something from the WC.
Passing strange also is the pair's similarly elastic time estimate of how long their supposed visit to the railroad yard took.
Passing strange also also is the fact that Mr Lovelady shows up------contrary to every impression his statements have given-------on the front steps several minutes later in the Hughes film.
There must be serious doubt over whether Mr Shelley was actually on those steps when the motorcade was passing.
Did Mr Shelley hear after the assassination that Ms Calvery had come to the steps loudly telling everyone about what she'd seen? Did Mr Lovelady tell hm? Did he then decide to profit from the fact that he and Ms Calvery were good friends by inventing an encounter with her that would lend extra credibility to his own story of having been on the steps? And did this initial lie come back to haunt him? :-X
Most importantly of all! Why would he have been so anxious to place himself out on the steps at the time of the assassination?
I can't help wondering whether the key to this might not lie in the words Captain Fritz cribbed from Agent Bookhout:
'out with Bill Shelley in front'
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Alternatively!
Mr Shelley was on those steps for the assassination, but immediately slipped back inside, and was one of the "several people standing around" in the front lobby seen by Officer Baker (Affidavit, 11/22/63) when he dashed into the building.*
Did Mr Shelley see something there in the vestibule he shouldn't have? Did his boss Mr Truly later that day prevail upon him to 'stay the hell outside' in the story he told to the authorities?
*Note that Mr Roy Truly would contradict Baker when talking to the FBI: "They saw no one there (in the front lobby, AF)"!
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Question!
Would one be right in saying that 'Gloria Calvery's' left hand is on the column in the Darnell frames?
(https://i.imgur.com/4x8B7aa.jpg)
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Alternatively!
Mr Shelley was on those steps for the assassination, but immediately slipped back inside, and was one of the "several people standing around" in the front lobby seen by Officer Baker (Affidavit, 11/22/63) when he dashed into the building.*
Did Mr Shelley see something there in the vestibule he shouldn't have? Did his boss Mr Truly later that day prevail upon him to 'stay the hell outside' in the story he told to the authorities?
*Note that Mr Roy Truly would contradict Baker when talking to the FBI: "They saw no one there (in the front lobby, AF)"!
Friends, it would appear that the bind Messrs Shelley and Lovelady find themselves in as they appear before the WC comes down to the following:
1. They have to include Ms Gloria Calvery's telling of what she's just seen out on the street
VS
2. They have to be down and away from those steps before Messrs Truly and Baker enter the Depository.
This leads them into the absurd 3-4 minute estimate for the latter!
Something is stopping them from simply sticking to Mr Shelley's original story (Affidavit 11/22/63) of running into Ms Calvery out at the corner of the 'park'.
It cannot be Ms Vickie Adams------------if the re-entry to the Depository building needs to be made as late as possible in order to discredit Ms Adams, then a couple of extra minutes can easily be added to their (supposed) railroad yard foray.
No, something else is forcing them into the Truly/Baker @ 3-4 minute lie...
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Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Was one of these white men Mr Bill Shelley?
Read the testimony of Mr Eddie Piper and Mr Troy West and you get a sense of just how toxic that shipping floor seems to have been to the official story!
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There is definitely someone behind Mr Billy Lovelady here just as the President is coming onto Elm Street.
(https://i.imgur.com/hmkgboJ.gif)
Is this somebody Prayer Man or----------perhaps-----------Mr Bill Shelley?
If the latter, then Hughes would appear to be showing us the scene as remembered by Mr Buell Wesley Frazier in his WC testimony:
Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.
Thumb1:
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Mr Freeman, I'm merely suggesting that taking Mr Shelley off those steps explains a number of problems with his story. As to where that leads, well how about we start with the question, Why would he lie about this?--------and see where it takes us...
After this many posts...where did it take us? Where is it proven that Shelley actually lied? He could have simply been mistaken or had a failure to recall....like a lot of top cops did.
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After this many posts...where did it take us? Where is it proven that Shelley actually lied? He could have simply been mistaken or had a failure to recall....like a lot of top cops did.
Yes, that's what the LNers would say alright! Thumb1:
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Yes, that's what the LNers would say alright! Thumb1:
Oh cut the crap. Answer the questions. You started this thread.
Where did all this it take us? Where is it proven that Shelley actually lied? Are you suggesting that he was involved? Quit beating around the bush.