JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on October 31, 2018, 04:56:28 PM
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Where was he going at nearly 4 miles an hour and how come no one ever noticed this Mr Blitz at nearly a jog before the shooting?
12:54 PM: LHO exits the cab in the 700 block of Beckley.
1:00 PM: LHO arrives on foot at his rooming house, where he retrieves his pistol.
1:03 PM: LHO leaves the rooming house.
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
Sources.....Bugliosi, Vincent. Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy. New York: W. W. Norton, 2007.---Epstein, Edward Jay. Legend: The Secret World of LHO Harvey Oswald. New York: Reader's Digest Press/McGraw-Hill, 1978----Manchester, William. Death of a President. New York City: Harper and Row, 1967.------McMillan, Priscilla Johnson. Marina and LHO. New York City: Harper and Row, 1977.------Posner, Gerald. Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK. New York: Random House, 1993; Anchor Books, 1994.-----Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy with 26 volumes of testimony and exhibits. Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1964.
See? All the WC proteges' favorite guys!
Note... Only 6 minutes after the shooting, a suspect description was broadcast by police dispatch. Amazing Miraculous work!!!
I've asked about all this before and there has been no explanation except- it just simply happened that way.
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These times are all cherry-picked assumptions anyway. Whaley originally said that he picked up his fare at 12:30 and took him to the 500 block of North Beckley. Markham, Bowley, Higgins, and Tippit's permit for autopsy all put Tippit's shooting as much as 10 minutes earlier than 1:16.
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They forgot to have the guy stand around at the bus stop first.
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They forgot to have the guy stand around at the bus stop first.
They did. How long is he supposed to have stood around?
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They did. How long is he supposed to have stood around?
Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes. That would have him leaving the bus stop at 1.05 (in the timeline of the OP) and gives him exactly 11 minutes to get to 10th Patton to shoot Tippit at 1.16 pm after having talked to him!
But wait, didn't Dale Myers argue that Tippit was really shot at 1.14.30 ? ::)
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Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes.... ::)
Let's say, for argument's sake, half a minute...
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I think a full movement re-enactment would be very interesting..
From the 2nd floor encounter onwards.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
Looking at the timeline above...
12:31:30 PM: LHO is confronted in the lunchroom by Patrolman Marrion Baker. The
superintendent of the building, Roy Truly, vouches for LHO, and he is released.
12:33 PM: LHO leaves the TSBD by the front door (presumed).
In 90 secs, he purchases a Coke, then walks across the 1st floor in no hurry, goes down a flight of stairs, (probably) points out the phone to a journalist, reportedly gets seen by Campbell, retreives his jacket and then pushes past the crowd at the front of the building (filled with people like BWF, who know him), alwhilst taking swigs from his Coke, as he has finished the Coke by the time he gets to the bus.
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Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes. That would have him leaving the bus stop at 1.05 (in the timeline of the OP) and gives him exactly 11 minutes to get to 10th Patton to shoot Tippit at 1.16 pm after having talked to him!
But wait, didn't Dale Myers argue that Tippit was really shot at 1.14.30 ? ::)
You can't say it was two minutes though. It could have been seconds. Who knows.
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I think a full movement re-enactment would be very interesting..
From the 2nd floor encounter onwards.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
In 90 secs, he purchases a Coke ... he has finished the Coke by the time he gets to the bus.
90 secs is a very long time to operate a vending machine with just one product to select. Try holding your breath for 90 secs or see how far you can walk in 90 secs. I can heat a can of beans in my microwave in 90 secs. Getting a coke? I'd say less than 20 secs even in a clunky machine.
How long does it take to point in a general direction and say "over there" or WTTE? I could do it without breaking stride.
How do we know that he finished his coke?
How do we know that he didn't jog part of the way from his rooming house? No one reported seeing him walking, crawling or sprinting. Maybe there was something on TV that would explain why he seemed to go unnoticed.
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Let's say, for argument's sake, half a minute...
Who waits at a bus stop for 30 seconds? If you don't see a bus coming you're not going to see one 30 seconds later either.
But whatever it takes.
Too bad Burroughs said that Oswald slipped into the Texas Theater between 1:00 and 1:07.
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Who waits at a bus stop for 30 seconds? If you don't see a bus coming you're not going to see one 30 seconds later either.
But whatever it takes.
Too bad Burroughs said that Oswald slipped into the Texas Theater between 1:00 and 1:07.
Burroughs was an idiot so save that red herring for another thread.
Who waits for 30 secs then leaves? A man in a hurry who is concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI through the rooming house phone number.
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You can't say it was two minutes though. It could have been seconds. Who knows.
Why can't I say that? We're all guessing here.....
Besides, you asked the question... if you wanted a specific answer, you should have said so.
FWIW, I seriously doubt that anybody would decide to take the bus and then only wait a few seconds for one to arrive.
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Burroughs was an idiot so save that red herring for another thread.
Who waits for 30 secs then leaves? A man in a hurry who is concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI through the rooming house phone number.
A man in a hurry who is concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI through the rooming house phone number.
Flawed logic! It's hardly unlikely that such a man would ever decide to wait at a bus stop so close to the roominghouse in the first place.
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Why can't I say that? We're all guessing here.....
Besides, you asked the question... if you wanted a specific answer, you should have said so.
FWIW, I seriously doubt that anybody would decide to take the bus and then only wait a few seconds for one to arrive.
I asked incase anyone knew but clearly they don't. Beyond that it is of course a guess. Saying 'you can't say ....' is a turn of phrase. You are entitled to a guess of course.
I don't think we can make a judgement about what someone in Oswald's situation would do based on our own experiences. Who knows what was going through his head.
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A man in a hurry who is concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI through the rooming house phone number.
Flawed logic! It's hardly unlikely that such a man would ever decide to wait at a bus stop so close to the roominghouse in the first place.
So reduce his waiting time to 15 secs. Once he realised he was exposed like a shag on a rock outside the rooming house he knew he needed to get out of that area altogether. He had three choices really;
1. go back inside and wait to be arrested
2. continue to wait for a bus with the risk of a patrol car racing toward him or
3. hot foot it out of the area until he could find a place to hid then form a plan.
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I asked incase anyone knew but clearly they don't. Beyond that it is of course a guess. Saying 'you can't say ....' is a turn of phrase. You are entitled to a guess of course.
I don't think we can make a judgement about what someone in Oswald's situation would do based on our own experiences. Who knows what was going through his head.
I don't think we can make a judgement about what someone in Oswald's situation would do based on our own experiences. Who knows what was going through his head.
Agreed... now, how do we explain this to the LNs?
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I don't think we can make a judgement about what someone in Oswald's situation would do based on our own experiences. Who knows what was going through his head.
Agreed... now, how do we explain this to the LNs?
I don't think it is exclusive of LNers.
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I don't think we can make a judgement about what someone in Oswald's situation would do based on our own experiences. Who knows what was going through his head.
Agreed... now, how do we explain this to the LNs?
I think it's the CTs that need to take his state of mind into account. I'm encouraged to see that you at least are aware of what it might mean regarding his decision making.
Anyway, I owe I owe so off to work I go
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You missed all the actions below in the 90s, and we know he was not hurry through the TSBD from Mrs Reid, someone who can remember how full a coke was, would remember if he was scurrying or moving quickly.
Mr. DULLES. Was he moving fast?
Mrs. REID. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did see him moving fast at any time.
Mr. BELIN. He was moving just at his normal walk?
Mrs. REID. Yes.
then walks across the 1st floor in no hurry, goes down a flight of stairs, (probably) points out the phone to a journalist, reportedly gets seen by Campbell, retreives his jacket and then pushes past the crowd at the front of the building (filled with people like BWF, who know him),
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So reduce his waiting time to 15 secs. Once he realised he was exposed like a shag on a rock outside the rooming house he knew he needed to get out of that area altogether. He had three choices really;
1. go back inside and wait to be arrested
2. continue to wait for a bus with the risk of a patrol car racing toward him or
3. hot foot it out of the area until he could find a place to hid and form a plan.
What would be the difference between options two and three.... in both cases he is out in the open on the street. If a police car can spot him at the bus stop, they can also do so when he is walking down the street, right?
And then there is this... The bus he was waiting for was driving North, so we must assume that he wanted to go North. So why suddenly walk South instead?
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I think it's the CTs that need to take his state of mind into account. I'm encouraged to see that you at least are aware of what it might mean regarding his decision making.
Anyway, I owe I owe so off to work I go
Thanks for making my point!
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Burroughs was an idiot so save that red herring for another thread.
Well, that's convenient. I can do that too. Roberts was an idiot. Markham was an idiot. Bledsoe was an idiot. Whaley was an idiot.
Who waits for 30 secs then leaves? A man in a hurry who is concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI through the rooming house phone number.
Why would such a man wait even 30 seconds at a bus stop next to that address?
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What would be the difference between options two and three.... in both cases he is out in the open on the street. If a police car can spot him at the bus stop, they can also do so when he is walking down the street, right?
And then there is this... The bus he was waiting for was driving North, so we must assume that he wanted to go North. So why suddenly walk South instead?
I'd say he wanted to get away from his rooming house asap and he only returned to get his gun. If a bus pulled up I think he would have got on regardless of where it was going. Maybe he would have gone just a few stops then got off just so long as he wasn't standing next to the rooming house. If only he'd not given that phone number to Marina and Ruth he'd could have made better plans.
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Why would such a man wait even 30 seconds at a bus stop next to that address?
Now you're getting somewhere. That's why he hightailed it.
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I'd say he wanted to get away from his rooming house asap and he only returned to get his gun.
Unfortunately, there is ZERO evidence that he got a gun at the boarding house -- or even had a gun at the boarding house.
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Now you're getting somewhere. That's why he hightailed it.
Then why stand around at the bus stop at all?
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Unfortunately, there is ZERO evidence that he got a gun at the boarding house -- or even had a gun at the boarding house.
From Fritz
I asked him where he went to when he left work, and he told me that he had a room on 1026 North Beckley, that he went over there and changed his trousers and got his pistol and went to the picture show. I asked him why he carried his pistol, and he remarked, "You know how boys do when they have a gun, they just carry it."
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Then why stand around at the bus stop at all?
To see if he could spot a bus heading his way.
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To see if he could spot a bus heading his way.
He couldn't do that while he was "hightailing"?
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I asked him where he went to when he left work, and he told me that he had a room on 1026 North Beckley, that he went over there and changed his trousers and got his pistol and went to the picture show.
Of course he did. Fritz just didn't record anything like that at the time and nobody else present at the interrogation ever mentioned it.
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Time trial video-
I believe everyone has seen that video. Just wondering which protege would post it.
They use the term 'within the allotted time' which is meaningless.
They had a cop to kill when they started out so it was absolutely necessary to take the shortest route possible.
One direction that a witness stated the killer took 'won't work at all' according to Gary Mack [I believe was the director]
Actually, there was an alley cut through [that I took when I walked it years ago] that would have taken took another minute off their shortest route. It was still a ludicrous test. They did not include walking+talking+cop leaving car+shooting+killer leaving scene of crime+cops arriving+taking testimony from witnesses+informing dispatch of descriptions all in less than 22 minutes.
They did. How long is he supposed to have stood around?
At the bus stop? Any time at all was time not included in the process of killing the cop.
Let's say, for argument's sake, half a minute...
For crying out loud ::)Who waits at a bus stop for 30 seconds?
Apparently Howsley the Conjecturer does.
One thing I might agree with...Oswald waited for a bus...caught a bus...to the Texas Theater.
If he did have that transfer, he didn't need it or use it. Or he got a ride up there from someone not identified.
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He couldn't do that while he was "hightailing"?
I don't know what you mean. If you're saying he could have left the immediate area by foot toward the next bus stop that's entirely plausible. That would have been smarter than standing around outside his rooming house for a couple of minutes pooping his pants. What he did do however is head further away from the crime rather than catch a bus taking him back toward the city.
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I believe everyone has seen that video. Just wondering which protege would post it.
Protoge?
They use the term 'within the allotted time' which is meaningless.
You asked about managing the walk in 13 minutes. How is that any different?
They had a cop to kill when they started out so it was absolutely necessary to take the shortest route possible.
Who are they?
One direction that a witness stated the killer took 'won't work at all' according to Gary Mack [I believe was the director]
Actually, there was an alley cut through [that I took when I walked it years ago] that would have taken took another minute off their shortest route. It was still a ludicrous test. They did not include walking+talking+cop leaving car+shooting+killer leaving scene of crime+cops arriving+taking testimony from witnesses+informing dispatch of descriptions all in less than 22 minutes. At the bus stop? Any time at all was time not included in the process of killing the cop. For crying out loud ::) Apparently Howsley the Conjecturer does.
Fair enough.
One thing I might agree with...Oswald waited for a bus...caught a bus...to the Texas Theater.
If he did have that transfer, he didn't need it or use it. Or he got a ride up there from someone not identified.
Speculation.
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For crying out loud ::)
I suggested 30 secs wait. So you prefer Martin's suggestion?
Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes.
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Well, that's convenient. I can do that too. Roberts was an idiot. Markham was an idiot. Bledsoe was an idiot. Whaley was an idiot.
Why would such a man wait even 30 seconds at a bus stop next to that address?
Perhaps you can provide us with official work and/or school records of Blesoe et al that would indicate that any of them were officially found mentally-deficient in some way.
In the meantime, one has testimony from Burroughs himself that he had failed the mental requirements needed to be accepted in the military. In fact he was given a card that classified him as 'different'... which, in today's terms, sounds awfully close to 'mentally-challenged, Autistic... or at least Asberger's Syndrome.
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I don't know what you mean. If you're saying he could have left the immediate area by foot toward the next bus stop that's entirely plausible. That would have been smarter than standing around outside his rooming house for a couple of minutes pooping his pants.
And you know he was "pooping his pants"...how, exactly?
What I'm saying is that it's inconsistent to posit that a guy who wants to hightail it away from his boarding house and the scene of a crime would hang around a bus stop for a northbound bus even momentarily. The guy Roberts described didn't act like a guy who was hightailing anywhere.
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Perhaps you can provide us with official work and/or school records of Blesoe et al that would indicate that any of them were officially found mentally-deficient in some way.
In the meantime, one has testimony from Burroughs himself that he had failed the mental requirements needed to be accepted in the military. In fact he was given a card that classified him as 'different'... which, in today's terms, sounds awfully close to 'mentally-challenged, Autistic... or at least Asberger's Syndrome.
You got all that from "different"? Please tell me more, Dr. Chapman. That makes him an "idiot"?
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I suggested 30 secs wait. So you prefer Martin's suggestion?
Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes.
Let's be clear about this; it was merely a suggestion for the sake of the argument.
Basically, the WC, based on their own speculative time line, had only about 11 minutes to get Oswald from the roominghouse to 10th and Patton to kill Tippit, which by itself was a tight squeeze. Mack's video proves that to some extend. So, any time spend waiting at a bus stop cuts into those critical 11 minutes which is why it needs to be reduced to a bare minimum and why it needs to be discussed.
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Perhaps you can provide us with official work and/or school records of Blesoe et al that would indicate that any of them were officially found mentally-deficient in some way.
In the meantime, one has testimony from Burroughs himself that he had failed the mental requirements needed to be accepted in the military. In fact he was given a card that classified him as 'different'... which, in today's terms, sounds awfully close to 'mentally-challenged, Autistic... or at least Asberger's Syndrome.
And that somehow makes him blind or unable to recognize somebody?
Btw I wonder just how many people would have loved such a "get out of the military" card back then!
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The guy Roberts described didn't act like a guy who was hightailing anywhere.
Mr. BALL. Why did you say to this man as he came in, "You are in a hurry,"why did you say that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he just never has come in and he was walking unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry."
Mr. BALL. You mean he was walking faster than he usually was?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
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Let's be clear about this; it was merely a suggestion for the sake of the argument.
It was your attempt to show that Oswald would have struggled to get to the Tippet shooting in time.
You said:
Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes. That would have him leaving the bus stop at 1.05 (in the timeline of the OP) and gives him exactly 11 minutes to get to 10th Patton to shoot Tippit at 1.16 pm after having talked to him!
But wait, didn't Dale Myers argue that Tippit was really shot at 1.14.30 ?
I suggested 30 secs at the bus stop which JI seems to think is way too long.
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Mr. BALL. Why did you say to this man as he came in, "You are in a hurry,"why did you say that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he just never has come in and he was walking unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry."
Mr. BALL. You mean he was walking faster than he usually was?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
So he "hightailed" it in there. Out of there...not so much.
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I suggested 30 secs at the bus stop which JI seems to think is way too long.
And yet, there he was hanging out at the bus stop..
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And yet, there he was hanging out at the bus stop..
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Hanging out at the bus stop, chewing the fat with the locals and enjoying the comfort of a pistol under his belt. Happy days in Dallas.
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It was your attempt to show that Oswald would have struggled to get to the Tippet shooting in time.
You said:
Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes. That would have him leaving the bus stop at 1.05 (in the timeline of the OP) and gives him exactly 11 minutes to get to 10th Patton to shoot Tippit at 1.16 pm after having talked to him!
But wait, didn't Dale Myers argue that Tippit was really shot at 1.14.30 ?
I suggested 30 secs at the bus stop which JI seems to think is way too long.
It was your attempt to show that Oswald would have struggled to get to the Tippet shooting in time.
No such attempt needed. The time line, as it is, does that all by itself. It's those who, for some reason, desperately want Oswald to be the shooter that are struggling to make their case, which is (and has been for years) falling apart left, right and center.
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Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes. That would have him leaving the bus stop at 1.05 (in the timeline of the OP) and gives him exactly 11 minutes to get to 10th Patton to shoot Tippit at 1.16 pm after having talked to him!
But wait, didn't Dale Myers argue that Tippit was really shot at 1.14.30 ? ::)
Mrs Markham swore that JD Tippitt was shot at 1:06.....Several witnesses verified that Helen Markham's was correct about the time of the shooting of JD Tippitt...
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Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Hanging out at the bus stop, chewing the fat with the locals and enjoying the comfort of a pistol under his belt. Happy days in Dallas.
LOL. You're not helping your own case.
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I don't think we can make a judgement about what someone in Oswald's situation would do based on our own experiences. Who knows what was going through his head.
Agreed... now, how do we explain this to the LNs?
I think it's the CTs that need to take his state of mind into account.
Indeed.
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It's those who, for some reason, desperately want Oswald to be the shooter that are struggling to make their case, which is (and has been for years) falling apart left, right and center.
OK I'll park that comment with your other comment on the OUT FRONT WITH BILL thread
You said
Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus. Deal with it.
Did you ever produce the evidence for that? I look forward to seeing it.
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Unfortunately, there is ZERO evidence that he got a gun at the boarding house -- or even had a gun at the boarding house.
This is incorrect. Fritz' testimony is evidence.
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And yet, there he was hanging out at the bus stop..
Why wouldn't Oswald wait to catch a bus?
It's just yet more evidence of a man evading capture, a man in flight.
JohnM
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LOL. You're not helping your own case.
:D
Like I've said before John, you've got nothing.
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This is incorrect. Fritz' testimony is evidence.
Exactly and Bookout said that Oswald admitted to carrying a gun.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
JohnM
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OK I'll park that comment with your other comment on the OUT FRONT WITH BILL thread
You said
Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus. Deal with it.
Did you ever produce the evidence for that? I look forward to seeing it.
Did you ever produce the evidence for that? I look forward to seeing it.
Oh the evidence is there alright, for those who are fairminded enough to see it. I actually outlined a circumstancial case against Bledsoe seeing Oswald on the bus on the old forum, but that's gone now. For the time being, as soon as you show me how to prove a negative (or did you just want evidence?) I'll gladly comply with your request. In the meantime, I'll just stick to having expressed an opinion.
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Time after time I am amazed to find that some people actually think evidence equals proof.
People can say anything they want. It might be evidence, once introduced in court, but it does not automatically prove anything.
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Exactly and Bookout said that Oswald admitted to carrying a gun.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
JohnM
So, the "He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth." is also evidence, right?
Was it ever followed up?
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You said
Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus. Deal with it.
Did you ever produce the evidence for that? I look forward to seeing it.
Did you ever produce the evidence for that? I look forward to seeing it.
Be prepared for a looooonng wait!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Kj9k2f/waiting.jpg)
Anyway, besides Oswald himself admitting to his interrogators that he was on the bus, there is also the bus transfer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2gsnYzB/front-and-back-bus-transfer.jpg)
JohnM
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So, the "He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth." is also evidence, right?
Was it ever followed up?
They tracked where Oswald's revolver came from.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig02_080510.jpg)
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/receipt-verifying-delivery-of-revolver-that-lee-harvey-oswald-used-picture-id576878028)
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig04_080510.jpg)
JohnM
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Did you ever produce the evidence for that? I look forward to seeing it.
Oh the evidence is there alright, for those who are fairminded enough to see it. I actually outlined a circumstancial case against Bledsoe seeing Oswald on the bus on the old forum, but that's gone now. For the time being, as soon as you show me how to prove a negative (or did you just want evidence?) I'll gladly comply with your request. For the time being, I'll just stick to having expressed an opinion.
Just the evidence will do fine. :D
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Be prepared for a looooonng wait!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Kj9k2f/waiting.jpg)
Anyway, besides Oswald himself admitting to his interrogators that he was on the bus, there is also the bus transfer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2gsnYzB/front-and-back-bus-transfer.jpg)
JohnM
Anyway, besides Oswald himself admitting to his interrogators that he was on the bus, there is also the bus transfer.
What does Oswald admitting to be on the bus (if that's what really happened) have to do with Bledsoe allegedly being on that same bus?
And as far as the bus transfer goes; you mean the one they "found on Oswald" several hours after his arrest?
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They tracked where Oswald's revolver came from.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig02_080510.jpg)
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/receipt-verifying-delivery-of-revolver-that-lee-harvey-oswald-used-picture-id576878028)
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig04_080510.jpg)
JohnM
Nope? Not what I asked for.
You claim Oswald told DPD that he bought a revolver at Fort Worth.
Did anybody, from the DPD, ever follow that lead?
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Nope? Not what I asked for.
You claim Oswald told DPD that he bought a revolver at Fort Worth.
Did anybody, from the DPD, ever follow that lead?
Nope? Not what I asked for.
I gave you what you needed.
You claim Oswald told DPD that he bought a revolver at Fort Worth.
He did.
Did anybody, from the DPD, ever follow that lead?
Why? The above evidence absolutely and overwhelmingly trumps anything that Oswald said!
JohnM
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I gave you what you needed.
He did.
Why? The above evidence absolutely and overwhelmingly trumps anything that Oswald said!
JohnM
I gave you what you needed.
No you didn't. You gave me what you had which? was nothing
Why? The above evidence absolutely and overwhelmingly trumps anything that Oswald said!
Even if it does, which is what I seriously doubt, it wasn't known when Oswald was still alive, so when he allegedly claimed he bought his revolver in Forth Worth, was that claim ever investigated?
It seems a bit silly to me that a suspect makes a claim and that investigators do nothing to verify it, because some time in the future some commission might find something else!
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Protoge?
Well yeah...isn't Bugliosi the late Grand Mentor of the ODIA's here?
You asked about managing the walk in 13 minutes. How is that any different?
Asked but not answered.
Who are they?
The guys that did the time trial...catch up.
Speculation.
That's what I think about a lone assassin.
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It seems a bit silly to me that a suspect makes a claim and that investigators do nothing to verify it,
What the heck are you on about?
They did investigate Oswald's revolver and Oswald ordered the revolver by mail order.
JohnM
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What the heck are you on about?
They did investigate Oswald's revolver and Oswald ordered the revolver by mail order.
JohnM
The DPD investigated that when Oswald was still alive?
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From Fritz
Fritz said- "he asked him where he went to when he left work, and he told me that he had a room on 1026 North Beckley, that he went over there and changed his trousers and got his pistol and went to the picture show. I asked him why he carried his pistol, and he remarked, "You know how boys do when they have a gun, they just carry it."
Unless you were or someone else was there, you don't know really what was said.
The DPD investigated that when Oswald was still alive?
Mytton believes that the 1963 Dallas police in no way had any agenda against Kennedy.
He dreams about their integrity.
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The DPD investigated that when Oswald was still alive?
It looks like the first thing that the investigators did was trace the serial number of the revolver, is that wrong?
JohnM
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It looks like the first thing that the investigators did was trace the serial number of the revolver, is that wrong?
JohnM
Which investigators and when did they do that?
Oswald told them he bought the revolver at Fort Worth. They could have gone there without delay to check.... Did they?
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It looks like the first thing that the investigators did was trace the serial number of the revolver, is that wrong?
If they already had the gun...took it from him... then why did they need to trace it? Also...How Could LHO Walk One Mile After Leaving His Room & Shoot A Cop In 13 Minutes?
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Mytton believes that the 1963 Dallas police in no way had any agenda against Kennedy.
He dreams about their integrity.
Mytton believes that the 1963 Dallas police in no way had any agenda against Kennedy.
I'm sure that some of the Dallas Police didn't like Kennedy but kill him or create an innocent patsy for their political ideology?, I seriously doubt it.
He dreams about their integrity.
Again, I'm sure that some Dallas Police were a bit naughty but when you have a case of this size with so many police and press at all the crime scenes, this alone logically rules out any foul play.
For instance who knows what someone else would testify to and who saw what, it's better to just say the truth and it appears that besides some expected insignificant discrepancies, they did.
This isn't a simple case where a couple of crooked cops plant some evidence or something, no, here we have the full gamut of planting, manufacturing, altering, manipulation, altering testimony and etc but you guys just happily go along with what is an impossible logistical nightmare.
JohnM
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If they already had the gun...took it from him... then why did they need to trace it? Also...How Could LHO Walk One Mile After Leaving His Room & Shoot A Cop In 13 Minutes?
If they already had the gun...took it from him... then why did they need to trace it?
Why wouldn't they? Just some examples, if someone else owned the revolver then there could be a conspiracy or maybe Oswald stole the revolver, so until you trace the revolver you can't start the investigation.
Also...How Could LHO Walk One Mile After Leaving His Room & Shoot A Cop In 13 Minutes?
Actually it was less than a mile, how about you try walking the same distance, time yourself and tell us what happens
JohnM
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Exactly and Bookout said that Oswald admitted to carrying a gun.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
JohnM
First of all, this is a claim. Nothing more. Secondly, did the WC claim that LHO purchased the pistol in Fort Worth?
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Well yeah...isn't Bugliosi the late Grand Mentor of the ODIA's here?
Is he? Where is your evidence for that?
Asked but not answered.
I asked a question but it wasn't answered.
The guys that did the time trial...catch up.
It wasn't clear. Perhaps you should check the clarity of what you write before you make sarcastic remarks.
That's what I think about a lone assassin.
Clearly. But why should what you think carry any weight?
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They tracked where Oswald's revolver came from.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/LHOrev_Fig02_080510.jpg)
JohnM
Yeah, except this alleged order form doesn't show a revolver like CE 143 being ordered. You're sunk again. 🚣♂️
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Another factor is that no matter which exact route he took, Dirty Harvey might have trotted or even jogged part way. In fact, I think it was HelenM who stated that he 'trotted' away from the scene.
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I posted that YouTube clip in reply #2. People weren't impressed :)
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I posted that YouTube clip in reply #2. People weren't impressed :)
One expects CTers to immediately dismiss out-of-hand anything and everything put forth by WC defenders. Well, I haven't seen any time trials put forth by any dissenters.
In any case, each of us can do our own trials and shatter the myth about a young, fit, lean Oswald not being able to cover the distance in a timely manner.
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Let's say, for argument's sake, half a minute...
Better still, lets say the very real possibility that Dirty Harvey trotted or jogged at times renders any further argument about the timeline to Tippit academic.
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Burroughs was an idiot so save that red herring for another thread.
Who waits for 30 secs then leaves? A man in a hurry who is concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI through the rooming house phone number.
Good one
Thumb1:
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Actually it was less than a mile, how about you try walking the same distance, time yourself and tell us what happens
I have [reply #31] If you would only read a little more instead of posting your own unrelated propaganda.
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Why wouldn't Oswald wait to catch a bus?
It's just yet more evidence of a man evading capture, a man in flight.
Provide evidence of that...that someone who would simply take a bus is a fugitive.
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Time after time I am amazed to find that some people actually think evidence equals proof.
People can say anything they want.
Don't be 'amazed' though. Many people have been framed before with mountains of circumstantial 'evidence'. "We have our man" was announced two hours after the assassination.
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I'm sure that some of the Dallas Police didn't like Kennedy but kill him or create an innocent patsy for their political ideology?, I seriously doubt it.
Throughout history it has happened. Even Julius Caesar was murdered by his closest friends.
Again, I'm sure that some Dallas Police were a bit naughty but when you have a case of this size with so many police and press at all the crime scenes, this alone logically rules out any foul play.
"A bit naughty" :D You haven't a clue. It was a scavenger hunt all the way...with the press led around by their noses.
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It wasn't clear. Perhaps you should check the clarity of what you write...
It was apparently clear to everyone else. It's not my fault if you can't keep up.
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I think a full movement re-enactment would be very interesting..
From the 2nd floor encounter onwards.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
Looking at the timeline above...
12:31:30 PM: LHO is confronted in the lunchroom by Patrolman Marrion Baker. The
superintendent of the building, Roy Truly, vouches for LHO, and he is released.
12:33 PM: LHO leaves the TSBD by the front door (presumed).
In 90 secs, he purchases a Coke, then walks across the 1st floor in no hurry, goes down a flight of stairs, (probably) points out the phone to a journalist, reportedly gets seen by Campbell, retreives his jacket and then pushes past the crowd at the front of the building (filled with people like BWF, who know him), alwhilst taking swigs from his Coke, as he has finished the Coke by the time he gets to the bus.
The written reports ( see pages 599 thru 636 WR) of the FBI agents who were there when Fritz was interrogating Lee Oswald reveal that Lee had already purchased the Coca Cola when DPS officer Marrion Baker and Roy Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom.
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Oswald would have only about 8 minutes. Because the shooting of Tippet had to have occurred not later than about 1:12pm due to Benavides WC testimony of having waited "a few minutes" after the shooter had fled the scene, before Benavides attempted to use to the Tippet police car radio approx. 1:16pm.
Additionally, there is the time required for shooter to linger at the scene, droping his shells, then travel time to leave scene, also the walking time for Benavides, stopping by officer Tippet, and so forth, before actually getting in the car
Note also: There is preliminary time for the shooter having been followed by Tippet some distance before the shooting occurred, a conversation between shooter and Tippet, and Tippet then getting out of the car. That adds about an extra 1 minute of time required which is how I arrived at 1:12pm estimate.
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in.
Mr. BELIN - Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I ducked down.
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On Patton Street. He was going south.
Mr. BELIN - He was going south on Patton Street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes; do you know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BELIN - Do I know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was going?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On the east side.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him going on the east?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - How far did you see him go down Patton?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more.
Mr. BELIN - Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his Position
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that shot him?
Mr. BELIN - Yes.
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing like I say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car.
Mr. BELIN - He was not moving when you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; he wasn't moving then.
Mr. BELIN - All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out and rush right up. He might start shooting again.
That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the Policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared.
Mr. BELIN - Did the Policeman say anything?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The Policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing.
Mr. BELIN - Where was the Policeman as he fell, as you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.
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Oswald would have only about 8 minutes. Because the shooting of Tippet had to have occurred not later than about 1:12pm due to Benavides WC testimony of having waited "a few minutes" after the shooter had fled the scene, before Benavides attempted to use to the Tippet police car radio approx. 1:16pm.
Additionally, there is the time required for shooter to linger at the scene, droping his shells, then travel time to leave scene, also the walking time for Benavides, stopping by officer Tippet, and so forth, before actually getting in the car
Note also: There is preliminary time for the shooter having been followed by Tippet some distance before the shooting occurred, a conversation between shooter and Tippet, and Tippet then getting out of the car. That adds about an extra 1 minute of time required which is how I arrived at 1:12pm estimate.
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in.
Mr. BELIN - Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I ducked down.
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On Patton Street. He was going south.
Mr. BELIN - He was going south on Patton Street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes; do you know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BELIN - Do I know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was going?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On the east side.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him going on the east?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - How far did you see him go down Patton?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more.
Mr. BELIN - Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his Position
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that shot him?
Mr. BELIN - Yes.
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing like I say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car.
Mr. BELIN - He was not moving when you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; he wasn't moving then.
Mr. BELIN - All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out and rush right up. He might start shooting again.
That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the Policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared.
Mr. BELIN - Did the Policeman say anything?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The Policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing.
Mr. BELIN - Where was the Policeman as he fell, as you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.
Mr Iacoletti.... This Bud's for you....
I'll remind you that you've often said that Benavides didn't actually witness the murder...
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
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Oswald would have only about 8 minutes. Because the shooting of Tippet had to have occurred not later than about 1:12pm due to Benavides WC testimony of having waited "a few minutes" after the shooter had fled the scene, before Benavides attempted to use to the Tippet police car radio approx. 1:16pm.
Additionally, there is the time required for shooter to linger at the scene, droping his shells, then travel time to leave scene, also the walking time for Benavides, stopping by officer Tippet, and so forth, before actually getting in the car
Note also: There is preliminary time for the shooter having been followed by Tippet some distance before the shooting occurred, a conversation between shooter and Tippet, and Tippet then getting out of the car. That adds about an extra 1 minute of time required which is how I arrived at 1:12pm estimate.
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in.
Mr. BELIN - Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I ducked down.
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On Patton Street. He was going south.
Mr. BELIN - He was going south on Patton Street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes; do you know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BELIN - Do I know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was going?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On the east side.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him going on the east?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - How far did you see him go down Patton?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more.
Mr. BELIN - Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his Position
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that shot him?
Mr. BELIN - Yes.
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing like I say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car.
Mr. BELIN - He was not moving when you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; he wasn't moving then.
Mr. BELIN - All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out and rush right up. He might start shooting again.
That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the Policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared.
Mr. BELIN - Did the Policeman say anything?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The Policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing.
Mr. BELIN - Where was the Policeman as he fell, as you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.
Thanks for posting Benavides testimony, Zeon.
Helen Markham swore that the time of the shooting was 1:06... Her statement is verified by several witnesses.. TF Bowley said that he arrived at the scene and got out of his car at 1:10. He saw Tippit's body lying on the street when he arrived .....Thus Mrs Markham time of 1:06 was corroborated by TF Bowley. And Domingo Benavides said that it was just a couple of minutes after 1:00 when he turned around to return to the shop to get the number of the carburetor that he was repairing for a customer. Shortly after turning around he saw the murder of JD Tippit.
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Thanks for posting Benavides testimony, Zeon.
Helen Markham swore that the time of the shooting was 1:06... Her statement is verified by several witnesses.. TF Bowley said that he arrived at the scene and got out of his car at 1:10. He saw Tippit's body lying on the street when he arrived .....Thus Mrs Markham time of 1:06 was corroborated by TF Bowley. And Domingo Benavides said that it was just a couple of minutes after 1:00 when he turned around to return to the shop to get the number of the carburetor that he was repairing for a customer. Shortly after turning around he saw the murder of JD Tippit.
If the shooting occurred at 1:06, then all it means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton by 1:06.
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If the shooting occurred at 1:06, then all it means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton by 1:06.
Circular argument (n): see circular argument
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Why wouldn't Oswald wait to catch a bus?
Ask Steve Howsley. He's the one with the narrative that Oswald hightailed it out of there because he was "concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI", and yet hung around at a bus stop right next to the house.
It's just yet more evidence of a man evading capture, a man in flight.
No matter what he did you would consider it "evidence" of a guilty man.
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Exactly and Bookout said that Oswald admitted to carrying a gun.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
But we were discussing the claim that Oswald picked up a gun at the boarding house, which is uncorroborated hearsay that Fritz wrote down from memory several days after the interrogation.
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Mr Iacoletti.... This Bud's for you....
I'll remind you that you've often said that Benavides didn't actually witness the murder...
What I've said is that Benavides was not an eyewitness to Tippit's shooting.
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It was apparently clear to everyone else. It's not my fault if you can't keep up.
A simple question gets turned into an opportunity to try to try to belittle someone. Sad how things go on forums like this.
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Circular argument (n): see circular argument
No circular argument.
All of the evidence points to Lee Oswald as the murderer of J.D. Tippit. There is no evidence pointing anywhere else. If there were, you would have already posted it.
Going solely by the available evidence, Oswald killed Tippit, even if it was at 1:06.
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If the shooting occurred at 1:06, then all it means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton by 1:06.
Heee...Hee, ha, ha,ha.... :D... So you believe that Lee was able to be in two places at the same time....At 1:04 JD Tippit was traveling slowly east on tenth between Crawford and Patton as he tailed a man walking east on the sidewalk of 10th street. Mrs Marklham watched as Tippit stopped his cruiser and called the man he'd been tailing over to his car....at 1:06 Tippit got out of his cruiser and was shot to death by the man that had been walking east on 10th street.
At the same time (1:04) that Mrs Markham watched the man on tenth street being stopped by Tippit,... Lee's landlady, Mrs Roberts, saw Lee Oswald standing on the sidewalk in front of the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.
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No circular argument.
All of the evidence points to Lee Oswald as the murderer of J.D. Tippit. There is no evidence pointing anywhere else. If there were, you would have already posted it.
Going solely by the available evidence, Oswald killed Tippit, even if it was at 1:06.
No, going by all the available evidence, who killed Tippit is indeterminate. Going by cherry-picked, tainted, and misrepresented evidence it was Oswald.
What we have is unfair and biased lineups, a gun that may or may not have ever been in Oswald's possession that took 2 hours to be entered into evidence, some slugs that can't be matched to a specific gun except one slug by one single "overachiever" out of 8 firearms experts, and some shells that may or may not have ever been at the crime scene that don't match the slugs in terms of manufacturer.
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What I've said is that Benavides was not an eyewitness to Tippit's shooting.
He wasn't?!....
Can you read?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
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No, going by all the available evidence, who killed Tippit is indeterminate. Going by cherry-picked, tainted, and misrepresented evidence it was Oswald.
What we have is unfair and biased lineups, a gun that may or may not have ever been in Oswald's possession that took 2 hours to be entered into evidence, some slugs that can't be matched to a specific gun except one slug by one single "overachiever" out of 8 firearms experts, and some shells that may or may not have ever been at the crime scene that don't match the slugs in terms of manufacturer.
I can post a boat load of evidence incriminating Oswald in Tippit's death.
Do you have any evidence pointing to someone other than Oswald?
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Ask Steve Howsley. He's the one with the narrative that Oswald hightailed it out of there because he was "concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI", and yet hung around at a bus stop right next to the house.
No matter what he did you would consider it "evidence" of a guilty man.
Possibly deciding what to do next; which direction to head. I think it was Martin who said the buses would be northbound from that stop, and Oswald walked south.
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Better still, lets say the very real possibility that Dirty Harvey trotted or jogged at times renders any further argument about the timeline to Tippit academic.
Right...then the killer casually strolls away after the murder while emptying his gun forgetting that he was quite the fitness freak.
If the shooting occurred at 1:06, then all it means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton by 1:06.
Further illustrating the fact that it is feast or famine with these guys...No matter how improbable or impossible something is, if it supports the official yarn it is considered gospel :(
A simple question gets turned into an opportunity to try to try to belittle someone. Sad how things go on forums like this.
Nonsense! Actually, you threw the disparagement switch with your first response.
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Ask Steve Howsley. He's the one with the narrative that Oswald hightailed it out of there because he was "concerned that his address might already be known to the FBI", and yet hung around at a bus stop right next to the house.
Can you recall how long I thought he waited at the bus stop? I suggested 30 secs. Long enough to look up and down the street as far as he could see. He then I suggested felt a compelling need to get as far from the rooming house as he could so he hightailed south taking him further away from the city.
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Nonsense! Actually, you threw the disparagement switch with your first response.
My first response was to post a YouTube video, with no comment, which was related to the question of your OP. You responded with 'I believe everyone has seen that video. Just wondering which protege would post it.' Wouldn't you consider that a little disparaging? I replied in #33 with no disparaging comment (unless you can indicate one). You replied in #64 including the phrase 'keep up' in response to my simple question. I responded in kind. Like I said - Sad how things go on forums like this. Lets both drop the disparaging comments shall we?
The OP asked 'How Could LHO Walk One Mile After Leaving His Room & Shoot A Cop In 13 Minutes?'. The video showed it is possible, although as you and others pointed out there are factors which were not taken into account in the test. It is also true to say we don't know whether LHO could have been moving faster than in the test or jogged at some point or how long he waited at the bus stop. So to me the conclusion has to be that it is not impossible for LHO to have got from his rooming house to be in a position to shoot Tippet in 13 minutes. Whether that is what happened is another question.
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Right...then the killer casually strolls away after the murder while emptying his gun forgetting that he was quite the fitness freak.
Further illustrating the fact that it is feast or famine with these guys...No matter how improbable or impossible something is, if it supports the official yarn it is considered gospel :(
Nonsense! Actually, you threw the disparagement switch with your first response.
the killer casually strolls away after the murder while emptying his gun
This is a fact...The killer strolled away after murdering Tippit and plucked one spent shell at a time from his revolver ...This is solid proof that the killer was NOT Lee Oswald ...Because Lee was allegedly carrying a 38 Smith and Wesson when he was arrested in the Theater.
The Smith &Wesson is NOT unloaded one spent shell at a time....It has an extractor that unloads all of the shells at once.....NOT ONE AT A TIME.
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I can post a boat load of evidence incriminating Oswald in Tippit's death.
Do you have any evidence pointing to someone other than Oswald?
Sure you can. That's why you have never done it, huh? Naming another person doesn't make LHO innocent just like not naming another person makes LHO guilty.
There is no evidence that points to LHO. There are claims, but not supporting evidence.
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Can you recall how long I thought he waited at the bus stop? I suggested 30 secs. Long enough to look up and down the street as far as he could see. He then I suggested felt a compelling need to get as far from the rooming house as he could so he hightailed south taking him further away from the city.
Makes perfect sense.
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Sure you can. That's why you have never done it, huh? Naming another person doesn't make LHO innocent just like not naming another person makes LHO guilty.
There is no evidence that points to LHO. There are claims, but not supporting evidence.
I've posted incriminating evidence against Oswald (for the murder of Tippit) only a couple thousand times in this forum and the old one.
Begin a new thread and I can beat you over the head with that evidence once again, if you wish.
What YOU have never done is prove that someone besides Oswald killed Tippit.
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The question is not if there is evidence pointed towards Oswald as Tippit's killer, because there clearly is. Highly circumstantial and heavy relaint on often unreliable witness testimony, but it's still evidence!
The real question would have to be IMO if that evidence is compelling and persuasive enough to provide conclusive proof of Oswald's guilt in Tippit's killing. And that's where opinions differ and where, in my opinion, the case quickly falls apart.
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Right...then the killer casually strolls away after the murder while emptying his gun forgetting that he was quite the fitness freak.
Remind us which witnesses said he appeared casual while emptying the S&W. And why on earth would it matter if he was casual or not, anyway?
One assumes a young lean Oswald would be in good shape, giving his job included lugging books around on a daily basis. If you want to conclude that he was a 'fitness freak' you should cite that.
And at least one witness said he 'trotted' away from the scene. Seems to me that one would slow a bit while emptying a revolver.
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The question is not if there is evidence pointed towards Oswald as Tippit's killer, because there clearly is. Highly circumstantial and heavy relaint on often unreliable witness testimony, but it's still evidence!
The real question would have to be IMO if that evidence is compelling and persuasive enough to provide conclusive proof of Oswald's guilt in Tippit's killing. And that's where opinions differ and where, in my opinion, the case quickly falls apart.
Fair enough.
Do you know of any evidence which points to someone other than Oswald being responsible for Tippit's death?
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The question is not if there is evidence pointed towards Oswald as Tippit's killer, because there clearly is. Highly circumstantial and heavy relaint on often unreliable witness testimony, but it's still evidence!
The real question would have to be IMO if that evidence is compelling and persuasive enough to provide conclusive proof of Oswald's guilt in Tippit's killing. And that's where opinions differ and where, in my opinion, the case quickly falls apart.
The circumstantial evidence available is both pro and con .... There's as much evidence that refutes the charges against Lee as there is evidence that supports the charges. The PHYSICAL evidence weighs heavily in favor of refuting the charges against Lee.
A) The recovered bullets could not be matched to the revolver that Lee allegedly was carrying at the time of his arrest....
B) The spent shells that were found at the scene were widely scattered ( witnesses reported that the Killer removed those spent shells ONE AT A TIME ....Lee was allegedly carrying a Smith and Wesson ..... That Smith and Wesson is designed to eject the spent shells all at once not ONE at a time. Clearly the killer was NOT armed with a Smith and Wesson.
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Quote from: Steve Howsley on Today at 01:31:59 AM
Can you recall how long I thought he waited at the bus stop? I suggested 30 secs. Long enough to look up and down the street as far as he could see. He then I suggested felt a compelling need to get as far from the rooming house as he could so he hightailed south taking him further away from the city
Quote from: Bill Brown on Today at 04:22:34 AM
Makes perfect sense.
Makes perfect sense speculation.
Do you know of any evidence which points to someone other than Oswald being responsible for Tippit's death?
The authorities never even tried to look for anyone else. You know that. 80 minutes after the assassination and they were completely satisfied that they had their man. Good enough for the media..good enough for the master...... LBJ.
If you want to conclude that he was a 'fitness freak' ....
According to Brown...He could have sprinted there in 6 minutes if he had to. After all, he had a cop to kill!
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Quote from: Steve Howsley on Today at 01:31:59 AMQuote from: Bill Brown on Today at 04:22:34 AM Makes perfect sense speculation.
The authorities never even tried to look for anyone else. You know that. 80 minutes after the assassination and they were completely satisfied that they had their man. Good enough for the media..good enough for the master...... LBJ.According to Brown...He could have sprinted there in 6 minutes if he had to. After all, he had a cop to kill!
I seriously doubt that Lee Oswald could have ran a six minute mile. Roger Bannister whose legs were much longer than Lee's held the world record for the mile ...The record was just under 4 minutes....and he had trained vigorously to try to run a four minute mile....
Anybody who might have been running full tilt would surely have attracted attention. Nobody reported seeing a man running as fast as he could in the section of Oakcliff.
Folks who advocate ideas like Lee dashing full tilt to the intersection of 10th and Patton completely ignore the FACTS .... Mrs Markham saw the man who shot Tippit WALKING east on 10th street at 1:05....
If Lee had just dashed to that location he would have been lying on the ground gasping for breath.
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I've posted incriminating evidence against Oswald (for the murder of Tippit) only a couple thousand times in this forum and the old one.
Begin a new thread and I can beat you over the head with that evidence once again, if you wish.
What YOU have never done is prove that someone besides Oswald killed Tippit.
Sure you have. Brown thinks his juicy fruit presentation of witness testimony (keep in mind that many of his brethren think eyewitness testimony is unreliable) proves something. Sure.
He can't link the alleged murder weapon to LHO. He can't link the alleged murder weapon to the murder. He can't show how LHO allegedly reached the murder site so fast. He can't produce one witness to say that they saw LHO walk the alleged route to 10th and Patton. He can't explain why LHO was walking east when the TT was west of the murder site. He can't show why LHO was supposedly at 10th and Patton. He can't explain why JDT was at 10th and Patton. He can't explain why LHO would have been stopped when the description for the JFK assassin was general and Oak Cliff was miles away from DP. He can't explain why JDT kept getting out of his vehicle without radioing in first as required. He can't show with certainty if JDT's gun was in his holster or out of his holster as there are conflicting witness statements. He can't explain reasonably why the ambulance arrived so fast if we use the official explanation. He can't explain reasonably why there was a rush to remove a dead body before the crime scene investigators could work the crime scene. Etc...
Sure, you have proven your claim. 🤣
I don't have to prove anything since I am not accusing anyone. You OTOH are accusing LHO so when are you going to prove your accusation?
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He wasn't?!....
Can you read?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Yes, I can read. Can you? Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot.
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So to me the conclusion has to be that it is not impossible for LHO to have got from his rooming house to be in a position to shoot Tippet in 13 minutes. Whether that is what happened is another question.
Thumb1:
LNers so often think that if they can make an argument that something is not impossible then they have proven that it happened.
However, the "13 minutes" is also an arbitrary number, based on a particular interpretation of conflicting evidence.
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I've posted incriminating evidence against Oswald (for the murder of Tippit) only a couple thousand times in this forum and the old one.
You've posted a bunch of rhetoric that has been rebutted only a couple thousand times in this forum and the old one.
What YOU have never done is prove that someone besides Oswald killed Tippit.
Or Oswald for that matter.
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Yes, I can read. Can you? Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot.
Stop playing games.
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head.
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Stop playing games.
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head.
Did Benavides ever say anything about seeing him shoot the cop in the head?
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Thumb1:
LNers so often think that if they can make an argument that something is not impossible then they have proven that it happened.
I certainly didn't say it proved it happened. I specifically said whether it happened or not was a different question.
However, the "13 minutes" is also an arbitrary number, based on a particular interpretation of conflicting evidence.
Sure, but that's the time mentioned in the OP.
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Stop playing games.
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head.
The not really Oswald at all would deliver a Coup d'Gras for a particular reason-
So the cop would not ever talk again... Why? Speculation. The cop was involved in a plot perhaps.
Maybe alive he would name names. Some one just merely trying to 'get away' wouldn't need to apply a capper. Needless. Save the ammo for another possible encounter. Chapman loses another round ;D
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I certainly didn't say it proved it happened. I specifically said whether it happened or not was a different question.
I know. The thumbs up was because I agree with you.
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I know. The thumbs up was because I agree with you.
Ah, right. Sorry, didn't recognise the smilie. Must get new glasses.
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Yes, I can read. Can you? Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot.
So you're proposing that Tippit was just clumsy?..... Is that right?.... He simply fell down at the time the shots were fired... :D,
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So you're proposing that Tippit was just clumsy?..... Is that right?.... He simply fell down at the time the shots were fired... :D,
No, I'm saying that if he didn't see Tippit being shot, then he didn't see Tippit being shot. This isn't complicated, Walt.
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No, I'm saying that if he didn't see Tippit being shot, then he didn't see Tippit being shot. This isn't complicated, Walt.
I agree ....But you're trying to make it complicated.... Benavides said he saw Tippit fall ( collapse) immediately after the sounds of the shots...
Afterward it was obvious that the reason Tippit collapsed was because he'd been shot....Or do you think he collapsed because of the sudden increase in weight from the lead bullets.
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I agree ....But you're trying to make it complicated.... Benavides said he saw Tippit fall ( collapse) immediately after the sounds of the shots...
Afterward it was obvious that the reason Tippit collapsed was because he'd been shot....Or do you think he collapsed because of the sudden increase in weight from the lead bullets.
No, I think you're either an eyewitness to somebody being shot or you are not.
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Did Benavides ever say anything about seeing him shoot the cop in the head?
Pretty sure I was addressing your statement that he saw the policeman fall down, not whether or not he saw the head shot.
Did I say Benavides saw the headshot? And tell us why that would be in conflict with him seeing the poor dumb cop falling...
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A review of the timeline again...
12:54 PM: LHO exits the cab in the 700 block of Beckley.
1:00 PM: LHO arrives on foot at his rooming house, where he retrieves his pistol.
1:03 PM: LHO leaves the rooming house.
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
How is it possible that witnesses ultimately obtained some presence of mind.. reported the shooting...[from the police cars' radio] then summoning police who arrived..interviewed these witnesses ..obtained a description of the suspect... forwarded it to dispatch who then relayed it to the squads all in 6 minutes? Even today with cellular communication that would still be considered ultra phenomenal.
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A review of the timeline again...http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
How is it possible that witnesses ultimately obtained some presence of mind.. reported the shooting...[from the police cars' radio] then summoning police who arrived..interviewed these witnesses ..obtained a description of the suspect... forwarded it to dispatch who then relayed it to the squads all in 6 minutes? Even today with cellular communication that would still be considered ultra phenomenal.
12:48 PM: LHO hails a cab and asks to be taken to 500 North Beckley.
William Whaley swore that the man who he delivered to Oakcliff entered his cab at 12:30 and the man was dressed in BLUE workman's uniform.
12:54 PM: LHO exits the cab in the 700 block of Beckley.
Possibly...But it was NOT William Whaley's taxi.
1:00 PM: LHO arrives on foot at his rooming house, where he retrieves his pistol.
The primary reason that Lee went to the rooming house was to change his clothes.....There is no evidence that indicates he retrieved a pistol from his room.
1:03 PM: LHO leaves the rooming house.
And He was standing on the sidewalk in front of the rooming house at 1:04
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
Mrs Helen Markham watched Tippit's patrol car creep slowly eastward along 10th street at 1:04 Tippit was tailing a man who was walking east on 10th street. At about 1:05 Tippit stopped the man and called him over to the patrol car. About 1 minute later The man shot Tippit to death as Tippit got out of the car and walked toward the front of the car.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
This broadcast occurred AFTER the police had talked to several witnesses..... The police could not have obtained a reliable description from the witnesses in a mere six minutes , because there was NOT A CONSENSUS of opinion about the appearance of the suspect.
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12:48 PM: LHO hails a cab and asks to be taken to 500 North Beckley.
William Whaley swore that the man who he delivered to Oakcliff entered his cab at 12:30 and the man was dressed in BLUE workman's uniform.
12:54 PM: LHO exits the cab in the 700 block of Beckley.
Possibly...But it was NOT William Whaley's taxi.
1:00 PM: LHO arrives on foot at his rooming house, where he retrieves his pistol.
The primary reason that Lee went to the rooming house was to change his clothes.....There is no evidence that indicates he retrieved a pistol from his room.
1:03 PM: LHO leaves the rooming house.
And He was standing on the sidewalk in front of the rooming house at 1:04
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
Mrs Helen Markham watched Tippit's patrol car creep slowly eastward along 10th street at 1:04 Tippit was tailing a man who was walking east on 10th street. At about 1:05 Tippit stopped the man and called him over to the patrol car. About 1 minute later The man shot Tippit to death as Tippit got out of the car and walked toward the front of the car.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
This broadcast occurred AFTER the police had talked to several witnesses..... The police could not have obtained a reliable description from the witnesses in a mere six minutes , because there was NOT A CONSENSUS of opinion about the appearance of the suspect.
12:54 PM: LHO exits the cab in the 700 block of Beckley.
William Whaley said that his passenger who was dressed in BLUE clothing paid a fare of 95 cents..... Lee told the interrogators he paid a taxi fare of 85 cents.... That ten cents says that Lee did not alight from a taxi in the 700 block of Beckley..... Lee apparently got out of the taxi about a quarter of a mile from the 700 block of Beckley.
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Pretty sure I was addressing your statement that he saw the policeman fall down, not whether or not he saw the head shot.
Pretty sure you're the one playing games by bringing up the head shot in a discussion about Benavides.
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So you're proposing that Tippit was just clumsy?..... Is that right?.... He simply fell down at the time the shots were fired...
Actually it was reported in several books and interviews that Tippit would look down on the ground when he was talking to someone.....
https://books.google.com/books?id=IdnhAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT67&lpg=PT67&dq=tippit+had+a+habit+of+looking+down&source=bl&ots=eOGoiT7iY9&sig=cWRsfwUXrTcgpD0ZYevrogHetRw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFz967mb7eAhVSeawKHeFwAL0Q6AEwBHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=tippit%20had%20a%20habit%20of%20looking%20down&f=false
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Pretty sure you're the one playing games by bringing up the head shot in a discussion about Benavides.
Point out where I claimed Benavides saw the head shot.
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Point out where I claimed Benavides saw the head shot.
I never said you did. But you did bring up the head shot in a discussion about what Benavides saw as if it was somehow related.
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I never said you did. But you did bring up the head shot in a discussion about what Benavides saw as if it was somehow related.
It's related in regards to your statement that "Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot." (Which is the statement to which I was responding)
This was my response:
"Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head."
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It's related in regards to your statement that "Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot." (Which is the statement to which I was responding)
Which, as I said, has nothing to do with a head shot that Benavides did not see.
This was my response:
"Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim
?? Are you confusing what Benavides saw with what the shooter saw?
and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not.
Why "most likely"?
This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head."
"Confirmed" how? Since the guy we were actually discussing didn't see Tippit being shot in the head, would you care to specify who actually did?
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Which, as I said, has nothing to do with a head shot that Benavides did not see.
?? Are you confusing what Benavides saw with what the shooter saw?
Why "most likely"?
"Confirmed" how? Since the guy we were actually discussing didn't see Tippit being shot in the head, would you care to specify who actually did?
I'm not trying to confirm Benavides saw a head shot.
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
The head shot seems to indicate that ProbablyOswald wanted to make sure the officer was dead. That has nothing to do with Benavides needing to see the head shot or not.
Heres my post again, with emphasis added, and an edit*
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty [from Oswald*] is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head."
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The head shot seems to indicate that ProbablyOswald wanted to make sure the officer was dead. That has nothing to do with Benavides needing to see the head shot or not.
Then why did you bring that up in a response to what I said about what Benavides saw?
Heres my post again, with emphasis added, and an edit*
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty [from Oswald*] is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head."
That's great. Do you have any actual evidence that the shooter was still looking at the victim after he fell or that he continued to point the revolver at him, or that he was feeling fear and uncertainty, or that the guy Benavides saw shot the cop in the head, or that it was ProbablyOswald? Or is that just a nice story you made up to randomly inject into the conversation?
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The head shot seems to indicate that Probably Oswald wanted to make sure the officer was dead.
But why? Doesn't figure and it's all speculation anyway.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1352.msg35959.html#msg35959
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But why? Doesn't figure and it's all speculation anyway.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1352.msg35959.html#msg35959
Arguably to make dead sure that Tippit couldn't call in.
It's not speculation. Witnesses saw varying degrees of the action and witnesses ID'd Oswald at the scene, no matter how you lot want to steer away from that fact.
If you dismiss everything WC out-of-hand, then I can see where it's all speculation to you.
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Then why did you bring that up in a response to what I said about what Benavides saw?
That's great. Do you have any actual evidence that the shooter was still looking at the victim after he fell or that he continued to point the revolver at him, or that he was feeling fear and uncertainty, or that the guy Benavides saw shot the cop in the head, or that it was ProbablyOswald? Or is that just a nice story you made up to randomly inject into the conversation?
Any shooter (not being under fire himself, that is) will pause to look at his results, paper or live. In fact your anybody-but-Oswald was seen to be pausing briefly at the window post shots... as if to check his results, according to a certain witness.
Point out where I claim that Benevides saw the cop shot in the head
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Point out where I claim that Benevides saw the cop shot in the head
Offline Bill Chapman
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Re: How Could LHO Walk One Mile After Leaving His Room & Shoot A Cop In 13 Minutes?
? Reply #119 on: November 02, 2018, 06:58:26 PM ?
ReplyQuote
Quote from: John Iacoletti on November 02, 2018, 05:19:29 PM
Yes, I can read. Can you? Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot.
Stop playing games.
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head.
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Q. Why did Tippit's shooter deliver a coup d' gras bullet in the head?
Arguably to make dead sure that Tippit couldn't call in.
No argument about it. The shooter made dead sure that the cop was dead...because dead men tell no tales.
and witnesses ID'd Oswald at the scene
All done in another thread called 'Oswald the Cop Killer' by John Mytton. Readers will see from the skeptics' replies that the testimony from the witnesses was all in some way or another slanted, coerced, biased or distorted.
If you dismiss everything WC out-of-hand
That is just it. The Warren Commission investigated absolutely nothing.
I doubt if the commissioners ever read their own report ;)
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Q. Why did Tippit's shooter deliver a coup d' gras bullet in the head?No argument about it. The shooter made dead sure that the cop was dead...because dead men tell no tales.
All done in another thread called 'Oswald the Cop Killer' by John Mytton. Readers will see from the skeptics' replies that the testimony from the witnesses was all in some way or another slanted, coerced, biased or distorted. That is just it. The Warren Commission investigated absolutely nothing.
I doubt if the commissioners ever read their own report ;)
CTers think their opinions are evidence
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CTers think their opinions are evidence
LNs think their opinions are evidence
Some LN opinions for which no evidence exist;
The MC rifle, wrapped in a blanket, was stored in Ruth Paine`s garage
The bag Frazier and Randle saw contained the MC rifle, later found at the TSBD
The bullet now in evidence as CE399 was the same bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland Hospital
The white jacket found at a parking in Oak Cliff was the grey jacket Oswald allegedly owned
The revolver placed in evidence is the same one that was taken from Oswald at the Texas Theater
All the clocks used to determine a plausible timeline in the Tippit murder were wrong
etc etc etc
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CTers think their opinions are evidence
I am not a "CT" I am a skeptic. Find any post I have ever made stating any conspiracy theory ;D
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I am not a "CT" I am a skeptic. Find any post I have ever made stating any conspiracy theory ;D
Same here, but for the LNs you are automatically a CT heretic when you don't swallow their fairytale hook, line and sinker!
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Any shooter (not being under fire himself, that is) will pause to look at his results, paper or live.
So that's just an assumption then.
In fact your anybody-but-Oswald was seen to be pausing briefly at the window post shots... as if to check his results, according to a certain witness.
What witness? What window?
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No, I think you're either an eyewitness to somebody being shot or you are not.
::)
Not that you're splitting hairs. And then splitting the split hairs.
No... not you.
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::)
Not that you're splitting hairs. And then splitting the split hairs.
No... not you.
What would be you is stealing Bugliosi's rhetoric without attribution.
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They did. How long is he supposed to have stood around?
Let's say, for argument's sake, two minutes. . . .
Let's say, for argument's sake, half a minute...
Which is the more reasonable estimate of the time Earlene Roberts, the housekeeper, observe Oswald at the bus stop?
Now remember, when Oswald came in, she was turning on the TV because she heard that the president had been shot. With about the biggest story of her lifetime, would she turn away from the TV to observe Oswald waiting at a bus stop? For 2 minutes? For 30 seconds? For any amount of time?
Earlene Roberts affidavit of December 5, 1963:
?Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I
saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop just to the right, and on the
same side of the street as our house. I just glanced out the window that once.
I don?t know how long Lee Oswald stood at the curb nor did I see which direction
he went when he left there.?
Of course the amount of time Earlene Roberts observed Oswald at the curb is the amount we would expect, about 1 or 2 seconds.
Earlene Roberts said she saw Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop, maybe waiting for a bus or taking a moment to decide on what to do next.
Earlene Roberts did not know if he stood there for five seconds, thirty seconds, two minutes or ten minutes? She only glanced at him. Naturally, she was mostly concentrating on the TV.
The only way to prove that Oswald did not have enough time to walk to the Officer Tippit murder scene is to assume, for argument sake, that Oswald waited for a certain amount of time, like two minutes. Heck, why not assume, for argument?s sake, twenty minutes? Then he couldn?t have made it without a time machine.
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The only way to prove that Oswald did not have enough time to walk to the Officer Tippit murder scene is to assume, for argument sake, that Oswald waited for a certain amount of time, like two minutes. Heck, why not assume, for argument?s sake, twenty minutes? Then he couldn?t have made it without a time machine.
No more arbitrary than assuming for argument's sake that he made it to 10th and Patton in 11 minutes (or in 3 minutes).
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What would be you is stealing Bugliosi's rhetoric without attribution.
WOW. Johnny the Quibbler sticking up for Bugliosi... who'da thunk it? Nice try, but Bug's famous split hairs thang is deeply entrenched in assassination research culture hereabouts.
Tell ya what: You can use my brilliant 'Dirty Harvey' reference (Smith, Wesson... and Lee) and you won't have to attribute to me. ;)
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WOW. Johnny the Quibbler sticking up for Bugliosi... who'da thunk it? Nice try, but Bug's famous split hairs thang is deeply entrenched in assassination research culture hereabouts.
Tell ya what: You can use my brilliant 'Dirty Harvey' reference (Smith, Wesson... and Lee) and you won't have to attribute to me. ;)
Methinks you overestimate your own brilliance.
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Offline Bill Chapman
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Re: How Could LHO Walk One Mile After Leaving His Room & Shoot A Cop In 13 Minutes?
? Reply #119 on: November 02, 2018, 06:58:26 PM ?
ReplyQuote
Quote from: John Iacoletti on November 02, 2018, 05:19:29 PM
Yes, I can read. Can you? Seeing a policeman fall is not the same thing as seeing the policeman being shot.
Stop playing games.
Seeing the policeman actually fall down clearly indicates that the shooter would still be looking at the victim and most likely continuing to point the revolver at him, not knowing if his target had been rendered ineffective or not. This seeming fear & uncertainty is confirmed when ProbablyOswald then made sure by shooting the poor dumb cop in the head.
Again, point out where I said BENEVIDES said he saw Oswald shoot Tippit in the head. Did Oswald not walk after shooting the officer in the body, then come back and shoot him in the head?
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Again, point out where I said BENEVIDES said he saw Oswald shoot Tippit in the head. Did Oswald not walk after shooting the officer in the body, then come back and shoot him in the head?
I don't think you've demonstrated that Oswald did anything.
Maybe the question you should be asking is why didn't Markham, Benavides, Scoggins, etc, see this alleged "come back and shoot him in the head"?
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Once again---- **Official timeline review [bold emphasis mine]......
1:00 PM: LHO arrives on foot at his rooming house, where he [changes his clothes... and then presumably] retrieves his pistol [and presumably gathers whatever bullets might be laying around].
1:03 PM: LHO leaves the rooming house [and is last seen at the bus stop on the north side of his rooming house].
1:16 PM: LHO [presumably... after walking south on N. Beckley Ave aimlessly to a random location is stopped and confronted by this patrolman who talks with him at some length then exists the patrol vehicle and then Oswald, presumably] shoots J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing [and then there appears a citizen who manages to contact dispatch on the police radio then as standers-by awaits the arrival of investigating officers who locates the scene... takes a vague description of the assailant ...relays the description to dispatch who then announces an APB to all squads in the vicinity.]
1:22 PM: [Hence] Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder. [allegedly six that is[6] minutes after the shots were fired by the assailant.]
This gives the whole event a total of 19 minutes between Oswald's exit from his room to the broadcast of the assailant's description...a logistical impossibility!
** http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
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Who waits at a bus stop for 30 seconds? If you don't see a bus coming you're not going to see one 30 seconds later either.
But whatever it takes.
Too bad Burroughs said that Oswald slipped into the Texas Theater between 1:00 and 1:07.
Too bad you are confronted with the "not enough time for Oswald to get to the Texas Theater as early as 1:00 pm and as late as 1:07 pm" problem.
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So that's just an assumption then.
What witness? What window?
Precedent-wise, in Oswald's case: Brennan, East window, 6th floor, TSBD.
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CTers think their opinions are evidence
LOL. CTers cite the evidence. LNers offer nothing but their biased opinions.
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Once again---- **Official timeline review [bold emphasis mine]...... This gives the whole event a total of 19 minutes between Oswald's exit from his room to the broadcast of the assailant's description...a logistical impossibility!
** http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
presumably gathers whatever bullets might be laying around].
This is a point worth thinking about.... The shells that were recovered at the scene and the live cartridges allegedly found on Lee Oswald's person were not fresh clean ammo. They were a mixture of Remington Peters and Winchester and they bore the signs of having been stored in a leather cartridge belt ( like a police officers belt) Lee didn't have the funds to buy boxes of ammo and burn it...If he had bought ammo for a 38 he would have bought a box of it. He would not have bought loose cartridges. ( The cartridges simply aren't sold as separate cartridges. ) And if He had bought a boxes of ammo he probably would have kept the unused ammo in the box .... But the police found no evidence that Lee ever had any ammo other than the old ammo that allegedly was found in his pocket over two hours after his arrest in the theater.
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presumably gathers whatever bullets might be laying around].
This is a point worth thinking about.... The shells that were recovered at the scene and the live cartridges allegedly found on Lee Oswald's person were not fresh clean ammo. They were a mixture of Remington Peters and Winchester and they bore the signs of having been stored in a leather cartridge belt ( like a police officers belt) Lee didn't have the funds to buy boxes of ammo and burn it...If he had bought ammo for a 38 he would have bought a box of it. He would not have bought loose cartridges. ( The cartridges simply aren't sold as separate cartridges. ) And if He had bought a boxes of ammo he probably would have kept the unused ammo in the box .... But the police found no evidence that Lee ever had any ammo other than the old ammo that allegedly was found in his pocket over two hours after his arrest in the theater.
What is "fresh, clean ammo"?
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What is "fresh, clean ammo"?
What I was referring to was the bullets that Oswald allegedly must have taken along with a pistol from his room. None of the professed Oswald's ammunition was ever reportedly found anywhere. No other .38 cal ammo ...no 6.5 Carcano bullets [except for 3 spent rounds and one in the clip] :-\ No rounds of ammo were found in the Paine garage. No gun cleaning supplies were ever found anywhere on the properties. This didn't ever seem surprise anyone. Why not?
Also.. he was given 3 minutes to change clothes, and gather all these various items. Like Superman from a phone booth.
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No, going by all the available evidence, who killed Tippit is indeterminate. Going by cherry-picked, tainted, and misrepresented evidence it was Oswald.
What we have is unfair and biased lineups, a gun that may or may not have ever been in Oswald's possession that took 2 hours to be entered into evidence, some slugs that can't be matched to a specific gun except one slug by one single "overachiever" out of 8 firearms experts, and some shells that may or may not have ever been at the crime scene that don't match the slugs in terms of manufacturer.
Further to that, as Walt Cakebread posted, the guns and ammo don't match, nothing matches including weapons and "ammunitions" used by LHO. It does not make sense either that the casings found with the Carcano where a mix and that the projectiles themselves were a mix of frangible (mushroom) and hard nose bullets! No evidence LHO had bought a single case of bullets where he supplied his gun from! The type of firearm used at Tippit's murder scene where shells are ejected does not follow logic. The proof is that there was a need for someone to see the evidence being left behind. Mismatched casing that had wear marks like they came out of a policeman's belt would be hard to explain. At any rate, why would he leave the casings behind with some lives one left in the chamber? Was he expecting a long hard gunfight at the OK Corral? Did he say he replaced the spent casings with new shells? How many did he have in his pocket? Is this not all the proof you need that LHO had 2 different guns then, something which defies logic? Try explaining the difference LNers?
the killer casually strolls away after the murder while emptying his gun
This is a fact...The killer strolled away after murdering Tippit and plucked one spent shell at a time from his revolver ...This is solid proof that the killer was NOT Lee Oswald ...Because Lee was allegedly carrying a 38 Smith and Wesson when he was arrested in the Theater.
The Smith &Wesson is NOT unloaded one spent shell at a time....It has an extractor that unloads all of the shells at once.....NOT ONE AT A TIME.
Another interesting fact is that testimony was entered, solely for the purpose of proving that LHO had a gun in the theater. The questions asked, only make it sure to reveal that, "yes he had a gun in his possession when arrested". Why would you need that fact recorded unless you want to use it in your conjecture and corroboration? Why was it important at all that LHO admitted that he had a gun in his possession at the theater. It looks by the questioning that they were more concerned of this "fact" to be explicitly pointed out. Again, they arrested the man, why would he be called to admit that he was carrying a pistol and that he inadvertently chose to mention that he bought it from Fort Worth? Isn't that concerning? Why the importance - unless you are trying to establish innuendo evidence for your framing!
Exactly and Bookout said that Oswald admitted to carrying a gun.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
JohnM
Even when you look at Mr. Benavide's testimony given by his questions by Mr. Belin. He is more intent on pinpointing Mr. Tippit's position, how he fell to the ground and the ejection of two shells at the scene. You would think the questioning wouldn't be what happened to Tippit, the question should be if you could describe the man that you saw did the shooting and leaving the scene! What was he wearing etc. He is only questioned about the staging of the evidence at the scene and position of Tippit's body at the scene. Establishing innuendo facts again. Is that the important part of trying to convict LHO? What did his testimony have to do with LHO? He wasn't discussed! What kind of kangaroo court do we have here? Was Benavides call over the radio ever recorded?
Oswald would have only about 8 minutes. Because the shooting of Tippet had to have occurred not later than about 1:12pm due to Benavides WC testimony of having waited "a few minutes" after the shooter had fled the scene, before Benavides attempted to use to the Tippet police car radio approx. 1:16pm.
Additionally, there is the time required for shooter to linger at the scene, droping his shells, then travel time to leave scene, also the walking time for Benavides, stopping by officer Tippet, and so forth, before actually getting in the car
Note also: There is preliminary time for the shooter having been followed by Tippet some distance before the shooting occurred, a conversation between shooter and Tippet, and Tippet then getting out of the car. That adds about an extra 1 minute of time required which is how I arrived at 1:12pm estimate.
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in.
Mr. BELIN - Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I ducked down.
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On Patton Street. He was going south.
Mr. BELIN - He was going south on Patton Street?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes; do you know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BELIN - Do I know Dootch Motors?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was going?
Mr. BENAVIDES - On the east side.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him going on the east?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - How far did you see him go down Patton?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more.
Mr. BELIN - Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his Position
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that shot him?
Mr. BELIN - Yes.
Mr. BENAVIDES - He was standing like I say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car.
Mr. BELIN - He was not moving when you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; he wasn't moving then.
Mr. BELIN - All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out and rush right up. He might start shooting again.
That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the Policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared.
Mr. BELIN - Did the Policeman say anything?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The Policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing.
Mr. BELIN - Where was the Policeman as he fell, as you saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?
Mr. BENAVIDES - The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.
I think one must also fashion a timeline for Tippit at the same time, to see how and why his path crossed with LHO. The evidence is scanty as to why he was even there without a dispatch call. Why he left his patrol car without a call. What called him into having an altercation with LHO in the first place at this scene? Was Tippit (who looked somewhat like JFK himself) just the patsy that turned LHO into not only a Presidential killer but a cop killer as well. This coincidence and the fact that he was killed before a lawyer consultation, make the whole story fit for a frame job. I don't believe for one minute that he was innocent - only that he was not acting alone and that he could have known that he would end up being fingered for the killings. He didn't do the shooting himself. Certainly, he had to have been placed in all his workplace settings (Russia and TBSD) by some well connected sources that were paying him and using him to complete their plot - in essence a patsy! He was going along with it -until they implicated him.
Certainly, hiding yourself in a theater after going home and changing clothes is really going to help hide you! He was set up and told to meet someone there. He thought his handlers were there to protect them. He trusted them!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm)
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I think one must also fashion a timeline for Tippit at the same time, to see how and why his path crossed with LHO. The evidence is scanty as to why he was even there without a dispatch call. Why he left his patrol car without a call.
...Why his path crossed with LHO his killer. Timeline-Its been done... http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm
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From a Steve Howsley post in another thread...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1349.msg37231.html#msg37231
It has been demonstrated that the walk is achievable in under 12 minutes.
Using google maps... the shortest possible actual driving distance is .8 miles.
To do any better, you must shape-shift into a crow.
3 miles an hour is quite a brisk walking speed. Thus the time/distance calculation would be .8 X 20 minutes = 16 minutes. I did walk the route years ago as a younger skinny guy. I took [oops] a wrong turn and it took me 18 minutes. But the main thing that made me feel weird about that trial is..Where in hell am I going and why am I going that way?
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From a Steve Howsley post in another thread...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1349.msg37231.html#msg37231Using google maps... the shortest possible actual driving distance is .8 miles.
To do any better, you must shape-shift into a crow.
3 miles an hour is quite a brisk walking speed. Thus the time/distance calculation would be .8 X 20 minutes = 16 minutes. I did walk the route years ago as a younger skinny guy. I took [oops] a wrong turn and it took me 18 minutes. But the main thing that made me feel weird about that trial is..Where in hell am I going and why am I going that way?
3 miles an hour is quite a brisk walking speed.
No.
Not to anyone who has ever been on a treadmill.
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Quote J. Freeman--"3 miles an hour is quite a brisk walking speed."
Not to anyone who has ever been on a treadmill.
You failed to try googling fitness facts before you posted that---Now, all that said, here is a general guideline on treadmill speeds: for most people 2 to 4 mph will be a walking speed; 4 to 5 mph will be a very fast walk or jog; and anything over 5 mph will be jogging or running. By contrast, an average easy walking pace is more than 20 minutes per mile (slower than 3.0 mph). A fast pace is under 15 minutes per mile (faster than 4.0 mph). If you already have a high fitness level, you may not be in a moderate-intensity exercise zone at a 3.0 mph pace.
So Brown stepped on his mouth at 5-80 miles an hour :D
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It's always incredibly amusing to me when someone makes a claim and then posts evidence which in no way whatsoever supports their claim and then they celebrate in their false victory.
3 miles an hour is quite a brisk walking speed.
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It's always incredibly amusing to me when someone makes a claim and then posts evidence which in no way whatsoever supports their claim and then they celebrate in their false victory.
That must be because you are easily amused...but really hate being wrong.
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Any reason to think that Oswald ever walked on a treadmill?
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Precedent-wise, in Oswald's case: Brennan, East window, 6th floor, TSBD.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/failedtoidentify.jpg)
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(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/failedtoidentify.jpg)
Hear Ye, Hear Ye...Mr Brennan DID NOT Identify Mr Oswald as the man who was dressed in light khaki colored clothing ( both shirt and trousers) and who was aiming a HUNTING RIFLE from a sixth floor window.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/failedtoidentify.jpg)
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Where was he going at nearly 4 miles an hour and how come no one ever noticed this Mr Blitz at nearly a jog before the shooting?http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htmSee? All the WC proteges' favorite guys!
Note... Only 6 minutes after the shooting, a suspect description was broadcast by police dispatch. Amazing Miraculous work!!!
I've asked about all this before and there has been no explanation except- it just simply happened that way.
I saw you stand up recently for Alec Jones
An InfoWars fan, are we?
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Any reason to think that Oswald ever walked on a treadmill?
Any reason to think Oswald wouldn't have taken the stairs at work, carrying heavy books, between floors a few times a day? Any reason to think Oswald might not have trotted (a word the Divine Miss M used to describe his departure from the Tippit scene) enough to arrive in time to engage the poor dumb cop?
Note the thick neck and strong arms. A small light man in damn good shape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fL2bN1YL/oswald-biceps.png)
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(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/failedtoidentify.jpg)
'Brennan failed to identify"
In context Brennan neglected to identify.
You're left with dissing Brennan's story despite the fact that you are not Brennan
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Any reason to think Oswald wouldn't have taken the stairs at work, carrying heavy books, between floors a few times a day? Any reason to think Oswald might not have trotted (a word the Divine Miss M used to describe his departure from the Tippit scene) enough to arrive in time to engage the poor dumb cop?
Well, Mrs. Roberts saw him standing around at a bus stop. Nobody seems to have seen him or anyone else "trotting" to 10th & Patton. So, it seems that your only reason for assuming that Oswald trotted anywhere from the rooming house is because you need to get him to 10th & Patton quickly.
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Well, Mrs. Roberts saw him standing around at a bus stop. Nobody seems to have seen him or anyone else "trotting" to 10th & Patton. So, it seems that your only reason for assuming that Oswald trotted anywhere from the rooming house is because you need to get him to 10th & Patton quickly.
"standing around"
>>> LOL
You need to get him there too slowly... and point out where she said she saw him 'standing around'
I don't need to assume anything. Witnesses ID'd Lee Harvey Oswald as being on scene during the murder
Earlene Roberts Affidavit [Excerpt]
"Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I saw Lee Oswald standing* on the curb at the bus stop just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house. I just glanced out the window that once. I don?t know how long Lee Oswald stood at the curb nor did I see which direction he went when he left there."
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[The] only reason for assuming that Oswald trotted anywhere from the rooming house is because you need to get him to 10th & Patton quickly.
It is futile arguing with these idiots. All they do is drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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It is futile arguing with these idiots. All they do is drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
"THESE IDIOTS" are not idiots.... It's their job to discredit any info that contradicts the official tale.
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whats interesting here is he was waiting for a bus north towards the city
not south towards the TT
IMO considering getting out to Irving
changes his mind
walks south
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whats interesting here is he was waiting for a bus north towards the city ..
"then he changes our mind" etc--An assumption. How do we know he was waiting for a bus?
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"then he changes our mind" etc--An assumption. How do we know he was waiting for a bus?
You've stolen my question Mr Freeman.... Simply because Lee was standing at a bus stop does not prove that he was waiting for a bus....AND since it is a fact that he was arrested in the Texas theater it would be obvious that he wasn't waiting for a bus going away from the theater.
This Haywire guy lacks common sense.... Even though I agree with him that Lee Oswald did not shoot JFK......
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I don't need to assume anything. Witnesses ID'd Lee Harvey Oswald as being on scene during the murder
Unfair, biased lineups are unreliable.
Earlene Roberts Affidavit [Excerpt]
"Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I saw Lee Oswald standing* on the curb at the bus stop just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house. I just glanced out the window that once. I don?t know how long Lee Oswald stood at the curb nor did I see which direction he went when he left there."
Really? So your objection is that she said "standing" and not "standing around"?
Did anybody see him "trotting" anywhere?
Anybody?
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I think it's safe to assume that the official time of Tippit's shooting is wrong anyway.
We know that the Dallas Police crudely changed the time on the their reports.
We know that the FBI harrassed the staff at Parkland telling them the DOA time of Tippit was wrong
untill they relented and agreed that the clock in the ER must have been faulty!
and we know that the DOA time was crudely altered and changed on the Parkland Hospital paperwork.
The official version of the timing would have us believe that, at the same place, at the same time and date,
there were three people who were major witnessess or aftermath observers to the Tippit shooting and that
they all had watches or clocks that were faulty, and that these timepieces were all faulty by about the same
length of time ie: 10 minutes....behind
(Markum's clock, TF Bowleys watch, Parkland Hospital clock).
Only one word for that....baloney!
I think that the time was changed...NOT to give Oswald time to get to Tippit BUT to protect the far more important
paradigm in the scenario.
That is, the time Oswald got home.
Why? - to negate all possibilty that Oswald was taken home by someone else and hence a conspiracy.
Jessie Currie had already said early on TV that there were reports of the suspect fleeing in a car driven
by another person.
It just couldnt happen that Oswald got home too early.
So what does this mean of itself?
Does it mean that Oswald shot or didnt shoot Tippit?....No.
Does it mean that Oswald shot or didnt shoot JFK?....No.
So..what it means....
Is that official investigations were seriously flawed.
Well we already know that...how?
Well for one thing, official investigations themselves tell us so.
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I think it's safe to assume that the official time of Tippit's shooting is wrong anyway.
We know that the Dallas Police crudely changed the time on the their reports.
We know that the FBI harrassed the staff at Parkland telling them the DOA time of Tippit was wrong
untill they relented and agreed that the clock in the ER must have been faulty!
and we know that the DOA time was crudely altered and changed on the Parkland Hospital paperwork.
The official version of the timing would have us believe that, at the same place, at the same time and date,
there were three people who were major witnessess or aftermath observers to the Tippit shooting and that
they all had watches or clocks that were faulty, and that these timepieces were all faulty by about the same
length of time ie: 10 minutes....behind
(Markum's clock, TF Bowleys watch, Parkland Hospital clock).
Only one word for that....baloney!
I think that the time was changed...NOT to give Oswald time to get to Tippit BUT to protect the far more important
paradigm in the scenario.
That is, the time Oswald got home.
Why? - to negate all possibilty that Oswald was taken home by someone else and hence a conspiracy.
Jessie Currie had already said early on TV that there were reports of the suspect fleeing in a car driven
by another person.
It just couldnt happen that Oswald got home too early.
So what does this mean of itself?
Does it mean that Oswald shot or didnt shoot Tippit?....No.
Does it mean that Oswald shot or didnt shoot JFK?....No.
So..what it means....
Is that official investigations were seriously flawed.
Well we already know that...how?
Well for one thing, official investigations themselves tell us so.
Liam,
I think you are correct in much of what you write, but you are in error about the hospital. The ambulance did not take Tippit to Parkland but to Methodist Hospital where he was declared DOA at 1.15 pm.
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..and oops! a slip of the pen..so to speak.
My previous post should have read Methodist and not Parkland.
Thank you Martin,
You are indeed correct
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I think it's safe to assume that the official time of Tippit's shooting is wrong anyway.
We know that the Dallas Police crudely changed the time on the their reports.
We know that the FBI harrassed the staff at Parkland telling them the DOA time of Tippit was wrong
untill they relented and agreed that the clock in the ER must have been faulty!
and we know that the DOA time was crudely altered and changed on the Parkland Hospital paperwork.
The official version of the timing would have us believe that, at the same place, at the same time and date,
there were three people who were major witnessess or aftermath observers to the Tippit shooting and that
they all had watches or clocks that were faulty, and that these timepieces were all faulty by about the same
length of time ie: 10 minutes....behind
(Markum's clock, TF Bowleys watch, Parkland Hospital clock).
Only one word for that....baloney!
I think that the time was changed...NOT to give Oswald time to get to Tippit BUT to protect the far more important
paradigm in the scenario.
That is, the time Oswald got home.
Why? - to negate all possibilty that Oswald was taken home by someone else and hence a conspiracy.
Jessie Currie had already said early on TV that there were reports of the suspect fleeing in a car driven
by another person.
It just couldnt happen that Oswald got home too early.
So what does this mean of itself?
Does it mean that Oswald shot or didnt shoot Tippit?....No.
Does it mean that Oswald shot or didnt shoot JFK?....No.
So..what it means....
Is that official investigations were seriously flawed.
Well we already know that...how?
Well for one thing, official investigations themselves tell us so.
Aside from the error about the hospital being Parkland....You've written a rational and well stated post, Mr Kelly....
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I think it's safe to assume that the official time of Tippit's shooting is wrong anyway.
We know that the Dallas Police crudely changed the time on the their reports.
But not on this report. The time 1:15 is when Tippit was pronounced dead [not when he was shot]
This is not 'new' evidence. It is old evidence that was covered up.....
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Tippit_1-15_PM.jpg)
Perhaps I should add this....
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)
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But not on this report. The time 1:15 is when Tippit was pronounced dead [not when he was shot]
This is not 'new' evidence. It is old evidence that was covered up.....
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Tippit_1-15_PM.jpg)
Perhaps I should add this....
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)
The time 1:15 is when Tippit was pronounced dead [not when he was shot]
This is not 'new' evidence. It is old evidence that was covered up.....
There's no doubt in my mind that Lee Oswald was not even near the place where Tippit was shot at 1:06......And I suspect that Tippit was shot to silence him....while at the same time setting Lee Oswald up as the Killer. I believe the key to solving the Tippit murder lies in the phone call that Tippit made from the Music and Record shop.
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Note that on the supplementary report above...the time was changed from 1:06 to 1:15.
Also notice that there is no response to those documents from the undying loyal supporters of the official story :-\
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Note that on the supplementary report above...the time was changed from 1:06 to 1:15.
Also notice that there is no response to those documents from the undying loyal supporters of the official story :-\
I think that time was originally typed as !:00 but then changed to 1:15 when Officer Davenport realized that the 1:00 o'clock guesstimate was not possible...so he simply entered 1:15 which also was not accurate.... I believe Tippit's body was brought into the emergency room at 1:23 and Dr Liquori took one look and knew that Tippit had gone on his last patrol.....
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All times on the documents are rounded times, 3:00 pm, 1:00 or 1:15 pm and 3:30 pm.
Nothing precise can be read into these times they are all rounded roughly to the nearest 15 mins.
My guess is that Tippett arrived between 1 and 1:15, and initially they went with 1:00 but rounded it to 1:15 instead.
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All times on the documents are rounded times, 3:00 pm, 1:00 or 1:15 pm and 3:30 pm.
Nothing precise can be read into these times they are all rounded roughly to the nearest 15 mins.
My guess is that Tippett arrived between 1 and 1:15, and initially they went with 1:00 but rounded it to 1:15 instead.
I think that you're right,Tony....And the important point is:.... Davenport knew that the ambulance with Tippit's body had arrived at Methodist at approximately 1:15 and Tippit was DOA..... Thus he used the 1:15 time.......
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All times on the documents are rounded times, 3:00 pm, 1:00 or 1:15 pm and 3:30 pm.
Nothing precise can be read into these times they are all rounded roughly to the nearest 15 mins.
My guess is that Tippett arrived between 1 and 1:15, and initially they went with 1:00 but rounded it to 1:15 instead.
And anyway, if they were trying to pull a fast one they would have used white-out. Guess they didn't expect the CT Zombie Hoards to follow, where typo-attacking rules the day*
*Especially by Richard's 'dancing monkeys'
;)
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They should have said 'approximately' like the DPD Dispatcher did regarding Oswald's age
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They should have said 'approximately' like the DPD Dispatcher did regarding Oswald's age
Yes, of course you're right Bill, but how many times does this need to be explained? This place is like deja vu land! I'm sure the members who raise dumb posts like this have enough common sense to work it out for themselves, surely!! It seems if some members can't think of anything intelligent to post they just post any old crap. They're just not happy unless they post 20+ times a day. They need to get a life. Sad fu**s.
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All times on the documents are rounded times... initially they went with 1:00 but rounded it to 1:15 instead.
So [in that event] any way you slice it... Tippit was pronounced dead before he was ever shot :-\
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So [in that event] any way you slice it... Tippit was pronounced dead before he was ever shot :-\
Well, in a way..... Tippit was a dead man walking when JFk was murdered.....He was hit immediately to silence him.....
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Yes, of course you're right Bill, but how many times does this need to be explained? This place is like deja vu land! I'm sure the members who raise dumb posts like this have enough common sense to work it out for themselves, surely!! It seems if some members can't think of anything intelligent to post they just post any old crap. They're just not happy unless they post 20+ times a day. They need to get a life. Sad fu**s.
1) What actually is Chapman 'right' about? [I seldom have seen him right about anything] 2) Where was it ever explained that the time of Tippit's death is erroneously posted at 1:00 PM [even if approximately] and then changed to 1:15 which still make it an impossibility for Oswald to have been the gunman? 3) This place is what? 4) the rest of that odious rant makes me wonder ..why read something like all of this if it is so detestable? Does someone have a gun to your head that you can't find something else to your liking? Who needs a life if someone becomes irked and emotionally responds to a controversial event?
I believe I had returned a quite placid response to your post in another thread and now this ::)
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So [in that event] any way you slice it... Tippit was pronounced dead before he was ever shot :-\
Helen Markham swore that Tippit was shot at 1:06......
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Helen Markham swore that Tippit was shot at 1:06......
Most of the evidence points to Tippit being shot between 1:06 and 1:10.
The only thing that does not compute with those times is the (easily manipulated) DPD radio recording (made on a voice activated machine and thus unreliable for actual times) and the various transcripts of those recordings. And then of course there is the questionable claim that a very elusive time stamp card is supposed to show that the ambulance from a funeral home on Jefferson was called at 1:18. However, that notorious time stamp card is not part of the evidence and in over 50 years has never been produced.
I've been to the rooming house and walked the distance to 10th/Patton on all possible routes and there is no way that Oswald could have gotten there before 1:10.
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Who waits at a bus stop for 30 seconds? If you don't see a bus coming you're not going to see one 30 seconds later either.
But whatever it takes.
Too bad Burroughs said that Oswald slipped into the Texas Theater between 1:00 and 1:07.
Too bad that the Texas Theater is approximately the same distance from Oswald's rooming-house on North Beckley as is the corner of 10th and Patton.
The time constraint for walking to both destinations in the allotted time is impossible?
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Too bad that the Texas Theater is approximately the same distance from Oswald's rooming-house on North Beckley as is the corner of 10th and Patton.
The time constraint for walking to both destinations in the allotted time is impossible?
Depends on how you walk, if you walk....
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Too bad that the Texas Theater is approximately the same distance from Oswald's rooming-house on North Beckley as is the corner of 10th and Patton. The time constraint for walking to both destinations in the allotted time is impossible?
What does that have to do with anything? I also have walked that route that Mr Weidmann mentioned. I can presume that he also wondered that if Oswald walked to that area...Where in hell was he going?
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Depends on how you walk, if you walk....
Martin,
My point is that the CT crowd use the "impossible walking time constraint" argument to say that Oswald cannot be at 10th and Patton to shoot Officer Tippit.
When they invoke the "Butch Burroughs saw LHO at the Texas Theater before 1:15 PM claim" ... they ignore the similar "impossible walking time constraint" factor.
Is it cherry picking or never considering the plausibility/implausibility of a theory based solely on a single witness testimony that conflicts with multiple witnesses testimony... that is the question?
Additionally: Blinded by an irrational need to portray Oswald as innocent of any wrongdoing?
The alternative options to walking: Jogging, sprinting, given a ride part of the way by a citizen (innocent) are never considered.
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What does that have to do with anything? I also have walked that route that Mr Weidmann mentioned. I can presume that he also wondered that if Oswald walked to that area...Where in hell was he going?
Same "not enough time" problem.
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Martin,
My point is that the CT crowd use the "impossible walking time constraint" argument to say that Oswald cannot be at 10th and Patton to shoot Officer Tippit.
When they invoke the "Butch Burroughs saw LHO at the Texas Theater before 1:15 PM claim" ... they ignore the similar "impossible walking time constraint" factor.
Is it cherry picking or never considering the plausibility/implausibility of a theory based solely on a single witness testimony that conflicts with multiple witnesses testimony... that is the question?
Additionally: Blinded by an irrational need to portray Oswald as innocent of any wrongdoing?
The alternative options to walking: Jogging, sprinting, given a ride part of the way by a citizen (innocent) are never considered.
My point is that the CT crowd use the "impossible walking time constraint" argument to say that Oswald cannot be at 10th and Patton to shoot Officer Tippit.
When they invoke the "Butch Burroughs saw LHO at the Texas Theater before 1:15 PM claim" ... they ignore the similar "impossible walking time constraint" factor.
Yes, I understood that but IMO you can not compare the two and here's why;
Tippit was shot at a particular time which clearly puts a time restraint on that incident where Burroughs simply could have been wrong in his estimate. Don't forget that if you want to argue Oswald killed Tippit you have him entering the Texas Theater after 1:40 PM. With that in mind, it doesn't really matter if Burroughs said 1:15, 1:20 or even 1:25! As long as Burroughs (who said he saw him prior to the movie starting) sees him prior to, let's say 1:30 pm, there simply is no way that Oswald could have been at 10th/Patton to shoot Tippit and still get to the Texas Theater on time.
Is it cherry picking or never considering the plausibility/implausibility of a theory based solely on a single witness testimony that conflicts with multiple witnesses testimony... that is the question?
No, it's actually comparing apples and oranges. Oswald could easily have walked the mile from North Beckley and arrived at the Texas Theater prior to the movie starting, but he could not have done so when you figure in a detour to 10th/Patton.
Additionally: Blinded by an irrational need to portray Oswald as innocent of any wrongdoing?
Doesn't apply to me. I don't care if Oswald was guilty or not, I just want to find out the truth. Having said that, I do not think it is possible for Oswald to be just a random innocent bystander in all of this. For him to be the patsy he claimed he was he would have had to involved in something at some level.
The alternative options to walking: Jogging, sprinting, given a ride part of the way by a citizen (innocent) are never considered.
Is there any evidence for any of those options?
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Most of the evidence points to Tippit being shot between 1:06 and 1:10.
The only thing that does not compute with those times is the (easily manipulated) DPD radio recording (made on a voice activated machine and thus unreliable for actual times) and the various transcripts of those recordings. And then of course there is the questionable claim that a very elusive time stamp card is supposed to show that the ambulance from a funeral home on Jefferson was called at 1:18. However, that notorious time stamp card is not part of the evidence and in over 50 years has never been produced.
I've been to the rooming house and walked the distance to 10th/Patton on all possible routes and there is no way that Oswald could have gotten there before 1:10.
I drove a car after dropping a young man similar to Lee Oswald's size at the rooming house and timed his arrival at Tenth and Patton ( not going beyond and then reversing his course)----- Time 12 minutes 20 seconds.
Who has researched the Music / Record shop aspect?..... I'd like to know about Tippit's mad dash into that shop?
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1) What actually is Chapman 'right' about? [I seldom have seen him right about anything] 2) Where was it ever explained that the time of Tippit's death is erroneously posted at 1:00 PM [even if approximately] and then changed to 1:15 which still make it an impossibility for Oswald to have been the gunman? 3) This place is what? 4) the rest of that odious rant makes me wonder ..why read something like all of this if it is so detestable? Does someone have a gun to your head that you can't find something else to your liking? Who needs a life if someone becomes irked and emotionally responds to a controversial event?
I believe I had returned a quite placid response to your post in another thread and now this ::)
Did you even read the post Denis is referring to? Denis is agreeing with me that if the times were changed for some sinister reason, they would have used white-out to disguise that.
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Did you even read the post Denis is referring to? Denis is agreeing with me that if the times were changed for some sinister reason, they would have used white-out to disguise that.
If they expected that those records would ever end up in the public domain, perhaps?. otherwise, who cares?
Why don't you try to give a valid and believable reason for changing those times in the first place?
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My point is that the CT crowd use the "impossible walking time constraint" argument to say that Oswald cannot be at 10th and Patton to shoot Officer Tippit.
When they invoke the "Butch Burroughs saw LHO at the Texas Theater before 1:15 PM claim" ... they ignore the similar "impossible walking time constraint" factor.
Yes, I understood that but IMO you can not compare the two and here's why;
Tippit was shot at a particular time which clearly puts a time restraint on that incident where Burroughs simply could have been wrong in his estimate. Don't forget that if you want to argue Oswald killed Tippit you have him entering the Texas Theater after 1:40 PM. With that in mind, it doesn't really matter if Burroughs said 1:15, 1:20 or even 1:25! As long as Burroughs (who said he saw him prior to the movie starting) sees him prior to, let's say 1:30 pm, there simply is no way that Oswald could have been at 10th/Patton to shoot Tippit and still get to the Texas Theater on time.
Is it cherry picking or never considering the plausibility/implausibility of a theory based solely on a single witness testimony that conflicts with multiple witnesses testimony... that is the question?
No, it's actually comparing apples and oranges. Oswald could easily have walked the mile from North Beckley and arrived at the Texas Theater prior to the movie starting, but he could not have done so when you figure in a detour to 10th/Patton.
Additionally: Blinded by an irrational need to portray Oswald as innocent of any wrongdoing?
Doesn't apply to me. I don't care if Oswald was guilty or not, I just want to find out the truth. Having said that, I do not think it is possible for Oswald to be just a random innocent bystander in all of this. For him to be the patsy he claimed he was he would have had to involved in something at some level.
The alternative options to walking: Jogging, sprinting, given a ride part of the way by a citizen (innocent) are never considered.
Is there any evidence for any of those options?
Is it cherry picking or never considering the plausibility/implausibility of a theory based solely on a single witness testimony that conflicts with multiple witnesses testimony... that is the question?
No, it's actually comparing apples and oranges. Oswald could easily have walked the mile from North Beckley and arrived at the Texas Theater prior to the movie starting, but he could not have done so when you figure in a detour to 10th/Patton.
You have missed the point made by of the CTs who push the Burrough's theory. The Conspiracy Theorists claim that Oswald went directly to the Texas Theater from the Boarding House at 1026 North Beckley hence providing him with an alibi for the Tippit shooting. Look at the map: the distance is similar to the various possible routes from 1026 North Beckley to Tenth and Patton. The CTs fail to see the implausibility in their theorizing.
Additionally: Blinded by an irrational need to portray Oswald as innocent of any wrongdoing?
Doesn't apply to me. I don't care if Oswald was guilty or not, I just want to find out the truth. Having said that, I do not think it is possible for Oswald to be just a random innocent bystander in all of this. For him to be the patsy he claimed he was he would have had to involved in something at some level.
Agreed.... largely. It's a subject for a separate debate.
The alternative options to walking: Jogging, sprinting, given a ride part of the way by a citizen (innocent) are never considered.
Is there any evidence for any of those options?
No. But surely Marty, you're not a believer in the unrealistic idea that each and every step taken by an alleged perpetrator must be witnessed by someone? Oswald getting a lift (for part of the journey) cannot be eliminated completely. It is a possibility that must be considered: Analyzing the possibility/probability of Oswald arriving at 10th and Patton to fit a time frame which is based on approximations of time-stamps. After all, Oswald was NOT continually observed after he left 1026 North Beckley to his arrest at the Texas Theater.
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Is it cherry picking or never considering the plausibility/implausibility of a theory based solely on a single witness testimony that conflicts with multiple witnesses testimony... that is the question?
No, it's actually comparing apples and oranges. Oswald could easily have walked the mile from North Beckley and arrived at the Texas Theater prior to the movie starting, but he could not have done so when you figure in a detour to 10th/Patton.
You have missed the point made by of the CTs who push the Burrough's theory. The Conspiracy Theorists claim that Oswald went directly to the Texas Theater from the Boarding House at 1026 North Beckley hence providing him with an alibi for the Tippit shooting. Look at the map: the distance is similar to the various possible routes from 1026 North Beckley to Tenth and Patton. The CTs fail to see the implausibility in their theorizing.
No, I didn't miss that point at all. I have looked at the map and have been there myself and you are right in as much that the distance from North Beckley to both locations is roughly the same. But the point I was making is that Oswald could have easily made it to the Texas Theater, before the movie began, if he had gone directly from the rooming house, but he wouldn't have been able to do so if he first made a detour to 10th/Patton. Burrough's estimate is IMO not a firm one. He could have been wrong by 15 minutes or so, but as long as he saw Oswald at any time before the movie began it means that Oswald could not have been at 10th/Patton when Tippit was killed.
Additionally: Blinded by an irrational need to portray Oswald as innocent of any wrongdoing?
Doesn't apply to me. I don't care if Oswald was guilty or not, I just want to find out the truth. Having said that, I do not think it is possible for Oswald to be just a random innocent bystander in all of this. For him to be the patsy he claimed he was he would have had to involved in something at some level.
Agreed.... largely. It's a subject for a separate debate.
Fair enough
The alternative options to walking: Jogging, sprinting, given a ride part of the way by a citizen (innocent) are never considered.
Is there any evidence for any of those options?
No. But surely Marty, you're not a believer in the unrealistic idea that each and every step taken by an alleged perpetrator must be witnessed by someone? Oswald getting a lift (for part of the journey) cannot be eliminated completely. It is a possibility that must be considered: Analyzing the possibility/probability of Oswald arriving at 10th and Patton to fit a time frame which is based on approximations of time-stamps. After all, Oswald was NOT continually observed after he left 1026 North Beckley to his arrest at the Texas Theater.
I am indeed not a believer in unrealistic ideas, but I am also not a believer in making assumptions to connect dots without there being a shred of evidence for it. Oswald getting a lift works both ways. He could also have been driven to the Texas Theater and arrive there when Burroughs said he saw him, so I don't see how making that argument would advance your case over that of the CTs who push the Burrough's theory.
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If they expected that those records would ever end up in the public domain, perhaps?. otherwise, who cares?
The documents I refer to were not [obviously] published in the Warren Report.
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Same "not enough time" problem.
I believe I know you mean there now. Something about a report that Oswald was at the TT at the same time as when the policeman was shot. I checked the distance also. From the rooming house to the TT is 1.1 miles. A 20 minute walk [if that walk took place] There is also the report from the housekeeper that a police car stopped or slowed considerably and honked right in front of the rooming house [while Oswald was reportedly changing his clothes] No record of this mysterious squad car was ever produced. No record of a pedestrian matching Oswald's description was ever found sauntering in either direction at that time.
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It?s only about a half mile from the 500 block of North Beckley to the Texas Theater.
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In his book 'With Malice'.....Dale Myers gives the time of Tippit?s murder as 1:14:30 PM.
He sure narrowed it down there.