JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Markus Ell on October 07, 2018, 01:55:28 PM

Title: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on October 07, 2018, 01:55:28 PM
Hello everybody and sorry for my very bad english,

this is my first post on the JFKAssassinationforum. When I looked at a Bronson photo of the Dallas Motorcade in Main Street , i noticed a lady wearing a pink headscarf (it seems like there are patterns on the scarf as well as the babushka on it). Her face is a bit recognizable. I compared the color of her headscarf with the color of the headscarf on the Videos from Mark Bell, Marie Muchmore and Charles Bronson's, as well as the photos from Jay Skaggs and Wilma Bond. The color seems reasonably consistent. I also looked at the face of the Babushka Lady on various frames of the Zapruder video.

Although the quality in Zapruder is very blurry and pixelated, I had the feeling to have discovered a few similarities with both women.

But maybe I'm wrong, too, so what?s your opinion? Here?s the Foto...

(https://share-your-photo.com/img/7743861c2e.jpg)
Title: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on October 08, 2018, 08:34:54 PM
Hello again,

when I was looking for more pictures of this woman on the main street, I discovered a video on the possibly the same person on it, she looks at least very similar.

However, I am very unsure whether this person is the Babushka Lady. The color of the headscarf could fit, as it holds a camera in front of the face, whether it is the camera is the same type I can not say. In my opinion, the color of the coat does not fit and the strap of her bag is not recognizable. Nevertheless, here are some pictures:

(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/a43b11-1539025923.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/c9fd0c-1539026077.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/332b2e-1539026157.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/c9eb88-1539026197.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/68aeab-1539026261.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/d8db14-1539026300.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/a531d1-1539026333.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/b5726e-1539026370.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/661cd4-1539026407.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/7c9d28-1539026448.jpg)
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/a3bd50-1539026473.jpg)

In addition, here is the link to the video, the woman is watching from about second 49 or 50:


Many greetings

Markus
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Royell Storing on October 08, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
        Not sure where in Dallas your images were taken. Just like everyone else, Babushka did have physical limitations. She would have had difficulty traveling great distances whether in a car, (streets blocked), or on foot. Take a look at a good copy of the very beginning of the Bronson Film. That looks like Babushka on the Left standing behind the Water Pool that ran parallel with Houston St. Same color scarf on her head and the same color/bulky coat. From that position Babushka would have then been able to walk down Main St, cut across the grass area that runs between Main and Elm St, and then at some point position herself behind Charles Brehm and his young son. The REAL question is where Exactly did Babushka and her camera go after the shooting?   
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Patrick Jackson on October 09, 2018, 09:45:54 AM
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Hello everybody and sorry for my very bad english,

this is my first post on the JFKAssassinationforum. When I looked at a Bronson photo of the Dallas Motorcade in Main Street , i noticed a lady wearing a pink headscarf (it seems like there are patterns on the scarf as well as the babushka on it). Her face is a bit recognizable. I compared the color of her headscarf with the color of the headscarf on the Videos from Mark Bell, Marie Muchmore and Charles Bronson's, as well as the photos from Jay Skaggs and Wilma Bond. The color seems reasonably consistent. I also looked at the face of the Babushka Lady on various frames of the Zapruder video.

Although the quality in Zapruder is very blurry and pixelated, I had the feeling to have discovered a few similarities with both women.

But maybe I'm wrong, too, so what?s your opinion? Here?s the Foto...

(https://share-your-photo.com/img/7743861c2e.jpg)

This is the Babushka Lady most probably:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jzv0qjsG/20180925-202030.jpg)

Images you have posted have nothing to do with Babushka Lady and it is absolutely impossible to recognize the face and scarf on photos you have posted.
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on October 09, 2018, 07:22:00 PM
@ Royell Storing

Thank you very much for your post. You?re absolutely right, i forgot  to name the locations of the photo and the video recording, sorry my fault.

The first picture is a foto taken by Charles Bronson near the "Dallas County Criminal Courts" probably with a still camera Leica Model III.

The other picture are screenshots from a YouTube-Video called JFK motorcade, Dallas, TX, Nov. 22,1963 slow motion excerpt from JRY 005.

According to the video channel the recording is taken from NW Corner of Market Street and Main, the last intersection off Houston Street.

I'm not sure if the Babushka Lady could cover such distances (eg Market Street to Dealey Plaza) during this time.

Many greetings

Markus
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on October 09, 2018, 08:02:22 PM
@ Patrick Jackson

Thank you very much for your post.

Probably you are right.  I was struck first and foremost by the amazing similarity of the colors of the headscarf and the fact that the Babushka Lady occasionally met in front of the Bronson lens (i already knew your screenshot from the Bronson video). Therefore, I thought it possible that the woman wearing the pink headscarf on the Bronson image could be the Babushka Lady.

Although I must admit that this is a very presumptuous assumption, her face should be made much more recognizable with today's software.

My Intention was it to give the Babushka Lady a face, but i know it?s very,very hard.

Many greetings

Markus


Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Royell Storing on October 09, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
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@ Royell Storing

Thank you very much for your post. You?re absolutely right, i forgot  to name the locations of the photo and the video recording, sorry my fault.

The first picture is a foto taken by Charles Bronson near the "Dallas County Criminal Courts" probably with a still camera Leica Model III.

The other picture are screenshots from a YouTube-Video called JFK motorcade, Dallas, TX, Nov. 22,1963 slow motion excerpt from JRY 005.

According to the video channel the recording is taken from NW Corner of Market Street and Main, the last intersection off Houston Street.

I'm not sure if the Babushka Lady could cover such distances (eg Market Street to Dealey Plaza) during this time.

Many greetings

Markus

     The Last intersection prior to Houston St is Record St.  A Market St. location would put the alleged Babushka even further away from Dealey Plaza. Plus, she would allegedly be trying to beat the JFK Limo moving at roughly 11 MPH to Elm St.  Not likely.
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on October 11, 2018, 03:58:22 PM
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     The Last intersection prior to Houston St is Record St.  A Market St. location would put the alleged Babushka even further away from Dealey Plaza. Plus, she would allegedly be trying to beat the JFK Limo moving at roughly 11 MPH to Elm St.  Not likely.

Will probably have to find out the exact position or place of abdomen of the woman in the video, but somehow it seems to me increasingly unlikely that it could be the Babushka Lady, especially since I found the information when reading the video description that the recordings might be in just a little less was made as one minute before the shots.

Perhaps it was simply due to my subjective view that I saw similarities between the woman on the video and the Babushka Lady in the Zapruder video behind Charles Brehm.

Many greetings

Markus
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Royell Storing on October 11, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
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Will probably have to find out the exact position or place of abdomen of the woman in the video, but somehow it seems to me increasingly unlikely that it could be the Babushka Lady, especially since I found the information when reading the video description that the recordings might be in just a little less was made as one minute before the shots.

Perhaps it was simply due to my subjective view that I saw similarities between the woman on the video and the Babushka Lady in the Zapruder video behind Charles Brehm.

Many greetings

Markus

    I appreciate your posting this Thread. Not enough attention is paid to the Movements & Identity of the Babushka Lady.  We can clearly see she had a camera which makes knowing the movements and identity of this eyewitness to the assassination extremely Important. The FBI did manage to track down Robert Croft and he departed Dealey Plaza immediately following the shooting bound for Denver via train. 10:00 AM the morning after the assassination the FBI was banging on the Mission Home door where Croft stayed wanting the film from his camera. Croft was a missionary who on the day of the assassination had departed Little Rock, AR with a very short layover in Dallas before heading to his new assignment/home in Denver. Absolutely NOBODY in Dallas knew Croft, yet in under 24 hours the FBI had located and was talking to this completely unknown man. Bearing this FBI rapid response in mind makes me believe that the FBI also found out the ID of Babushka and likewise tracked her down and took possession of her film. Unlike Croft, Babushka hung around Dealey Plaza following the assassination. To believe the FBI was able to identify, track down, and physically contact a completely Unknown person in Denver, but was unable to do likewise to someone that was right there inside Dealey Plaza for an extended period of time is illogical. Again, thanks for this Thread and keep searching & researching.   
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Robin Unger on October 12, 2018, 08:44:12 AM
William Allen crop

When looking for Babushka you need to look for the strap that goes across her right shoulder and down her back.
the strap was attached to a bag she was carrying at her left side.

There are lots of look alikes, if you can't see tha bag or strap over her shoulder, then it's not her.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Allen_Crop.jpg)
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Robin Unger on October 12, 2018, 08:49:38 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/BABUSHKA.jpg)
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on October 16, 2018, 06:10:09 PM
Hello again to all and thanks for your posts. Excuse me, that I'm writing now, was very busy in the last few days.

I will always look at photos from the day of the assassination. Maybe I'll find more shots with the Babushka Lady or people who might match their identity.

Many Greetings
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on December 30, 2018, 01:01:54 PM
Hello again.

Have always looked at various pictures and movies, but with very disappointing result.

As for the person in the Bronson photo, someone came to me on the Patsy Paschall film, which could be the same person. Whether this is the Babushka Lady is more than uncertain, so it is hardly worth keeping track.

Here is the Photo:
(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181230/q6ef9s9t.jpg)

In addition, it seems as if the Skaggs photo someone in the inside of the vehicle is reflected in front of the Allen-Skaggs-Babushka Lady stands (on the windscreen, except perhaps the sky does not reflect anything, so the reflected object must be in or behind the vehicle are located).

But maybe I can see ghosts now, here are the pictures:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181230/xs3bw9rx.jpg)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181230/4ajv77wf.jpg)

The Skaggs photo gave me the idea that the Babushka Lady might have reflected on one of the passing vehicles like the presidential limousine in the Muchmore movie or another vehicle in the Bell movie and Allen-Foto (for the Allen-Skaggs-Babushka at least). Unfortunately I could not recognize anything yet.

The problem with the reflection is that the Babushka lady, if it is too far away from the vehicle, would most likely only reflect on the body of the vehicles, as the car windows are more likely to reflect upwards. This reflection on the body would shrink the babushka lady very much, so that you need a very good image editing program to maybe make something visible (in addition, you get in danger of pareidolia to expire  :) ). Nevertheless, I will continue to try to find something.

Wish you all a nice and happy New Year and much success and new insights in your research.



Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Royell Storing on December 30, 2018, 03:45:18 PM
    Your posted still frame is a view Down Main St = your alleged Babushka Lady having to conquer a Time & Distance Issue in order for her to arrive at her Elm St position ahead of the JFK Limo as captured on the Zapruder Film.  I do Not believe your alleged Babushka Lady could have conquered this Time & Distance issue, nor have I ever heard or read of Anyone positioned down Main St having achieved this necessary mad dash on 11/22/63.. 
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on December 31, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
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    Your posted still frame is a view Down Main St = your alleged Babushka Lady having to conquer a Time & Distance Issue in order for her to arrive at her Elm St position ahead of the JFK Limo as captured on the Zapruder Film.  I do Not believe your alleged Babushka Lady could have conquered this Time & Distance issue, nor have I ever heard or read of Anyone positioned down Main St having achieved this necessary mad dash on 11/22/63.. 

Yes, you are right. As Robin Unger wrote, there were some women wearing a coat and headscarf that day. Even if the person on the Paschal film is the same as on the Bronson photo, I think it's impossible that this is the Babushka lady. The place-time aspect I stupidly ignored.

With a little luck, perhaps the reflection idea brings something more to light. However, this idea is very problematic.

There are some difficult factors, such as the direction of the sunbeams, catching the right moment, persons covering the reflection (eg Muchmorefilm, Charles Brehm stands next to Babushkalady), babushkalady's distance to cars, the fact that the reflection the body of a person shrinks back and the image quality itself. In addition, neither the knowledge to make reflections clearly visible or a good image editing program, which complicates the project. The brain also makes faces and people see where there are none (Pareidolia).

Nevertheless, it is in my opinion worth it to continue to try with this idea.

With the material you have so far about babushkalady it is almost impossible to identify her. As you all know, she seems too blurred on the Zapruder video, Nix shows the lady too short, on the muchmorefilm you can only see her from behind, at the bellfilm also almost only from behind and if the side is her face too shady and bronson was too far away and she appeared  from behind.

The couch movie (and I think the movie Darnell too) have unfortunately a bit too bad quality for an identification.

The best way to recognize something from her face was on one of the wilma-bond photos (maybe it was also a screenshot of the mark bell movie), in which I inverted the colors. Unfortunately even here, the face from the side and very gaudy can be seen here. Also good photos of Skaggs and Allen (most assume that it is the same babushkalady) help unfortunately hardly in the identification.

Maybe someone will still find the decisive hints.

Until then, I wish all of you a happy and successful new year again.
Title: Re: Maybe a chance for Babushka Lady?s Face in a Bronson Foto ????
Post by: Markus Ell on March 01, 2019, 08:52:04 PM
Hello everybody,

in my last post, I announced that I would try to make a little more of the face of the Babushka Lady (based on reflections on passing cars).

In particular, I watched the reflections in the films of Marie Muchmore and Mark Bell. So far I have not been able to discover anything that seemed relevant to me in the Muchmore movie. Even with the Bell movie, the discoveries are rather disappointing.

Here are some pictures:

(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/0593dc-1551468707.jpg)

The picture is a screenshot of the You-Tube video JFK-Mark Bell movie from the video channel Jack McFile (There are curiously high-quality bell movies on youtube
, where I did not discover this reflection).

I inserted the screenshot in OpenOffice and changed the brightness and contrast values ​​and tried to sharpen the image. Unfortunately, the result is anything but satisfactory.

Interestingly, here the reflection took place on a car window pane and not on the body of the car. At the Bell Film, though, the babushka lady's reflections on the car window might be possible because she's pretty close to the street (at the muchmore movie, she's a bit further away from the cars, I think). Nevertheless, I can not say exactly whether the face of a person is really reflected on the windowpane or whether you see something that is in the car (the part of the reflection which in my opinion could be a face disappears after the car disappears on the babushka lady drives past, which suggests that maybe something from the outside on the car window has reflected).

Here is the original unedited photo:
(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/4b0f5e-1551471718.jpg)

And more photos (partially edited with gimp and from another Bell movie version on Youtube):

(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/cdce1b-1551472318.jpg)

(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/2e0b14-1551472395.jpg)

(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/f0d0d6-1551472462.jpg)

And finally a curious picture, maybe with an anomaly

(https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/c723ed-1551472797.png)

Anyway, maybe you have the necessary know-how and a good image processing program and can therefore get a bit more out of the reflections than my poor attempts here. I'm pretty sure that at least part of the Babushka Lady must have reflected on one of the passing vehicles. Maybe this will give you new insights.

Until then, a lot of fun, luck and, above all, success in your further research.

many Greetings
Markus