JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Robert Reeves on October 06, 2018, 10:47:40 PM
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I've tried to contact several people involved with the editing processes for the Oliver Stone film JFK re the Zapruder film footage used ... and got nowhere. My question to them is: did they alter the original Zapruder film during the 'enhancement' process. Was anything added. In various interviews Oliver Stone and editor's Hank Corwin, Joe Hutshing, Pietro Scalia, have all discussed stabilizing + enhancing the Zapruder film quality. Just enhancement.
Joe Hutshing an was Editor for the JFK film -- he worked with the Zapruder film sequences used - in interviews he stated "We got everything, I think we were the first people to have the whole thing (Zapruder film), we had it steadied, had every frame: I think the FBI had cut it up - or the police department had cut it up to analyze it. Anyway we restored it, we had the entire thing"
I believe Martin Hinrichs & Robin Unger extracted the Zapruder movie sequence used in the film JFK that is most interesting, to me.
So the Zapruder film sequence ... about frames 222 -- 245
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJrqQbXC/1st.gif)
These gifs are pretty big size so let them run. I wanted to preserve as much content rather than compress the crap out of them.
I noticed when viewing this sequence of the Zapruder film (approximately frames 232 onwards) that a white moving object/projectile appears to strike JFK in the jawline area!
Slowed down
(https://i.postimg.cc/44DCKggS/350_sloww.gif)
One of the clearest frames showing a glowing projectile - below. And if so: part of the Zapruder film? or added by Stone's editing team?
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0CyVN2m/neck_jpg.jpg)
The frames below clearly show a white projectile moving back n forth ... running over JFK's wrist area, or even striking JFK's coat sleeve. below
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFDmTc9Z/back_n_forthh.gif)
The coat that JFK wore during the assassination has an unexplained mark on the right sleeve. below
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yhr88zP/jacket_cuts.jpg)
There are clear cuts made to the coat in the chest area by the staff at Parkland Hospital. Also, in the area of the right sleeve where the projectile in the Zapruder film appears to pass across and then strike JFK in the jaw there's also a mark. A slashing horizontal line.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTnwGPXv/blood_and_slash_mark111.jpg)
When the right sleeve is aligned with JFK's arm in the Zapruder film position the coat mark aligns in the area close to where the white projectile is moving. In JFK's right wrist area from right to left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RjFwvCT/arm_slash.gif)
But could the mark on the coat sleeve be brain matter? or blood?
The known cuts in the JFK coat were made at Parkland hospital by the doctors that treated JFK. These cuts are clearly visible. But so is the mark on the right sleeve. It is the only other mark that appears clearly when subjected to line detection filter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0LnmdR6/cuts_in_jacket1.gif)
Were there any marks on JFK chin area?
(https://i.postimg.cc/HndpFctF/optimized_chin_hole1.gif)
The Zapruder movie frames used by Oliver Stone do not show the entire head snap of JFK from frames 232 onwards. I combined the JFK movie frames with an equally clear z-film frames version to complete the sequence, showing the complete head turn, below
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhjtRGJC/completed_frames_of_headshot1.gif)
A projectile striking JFK's chin area with velocity forcing JFK's head to turn from right to left?
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5mhQQXr/completed_dual_overlay.gif)
I've tried to get confirmation as to the legitimacy of this 'white' 'glowing projectile'. It's not happening. I personally do not believe it wasn't spotted during the editing process of the making of Oliver Stone's film JFK. Joe Hutshing admits in interviews to watching the Zapruder film footage over and over. Hours and hours of meticulous editing. How could it have been missed?
The unexplained mark on the right sleeve of JFK's coat leads me to believe this is evidence of a shot/projectile striking JFK's right wrist area, and proceeding to hit JFK in the jawline, possibly a real shot from the front. I've been in contact with the last people to view the coat of JFK -- in their opinion the mark on the right sleeve is brain matter. I differ. The mark of JFK's right coat sleeve needs explaining. If indeed, it's a cut to the fabric.
I'd be interested to know what others think. I don't know if this is some stupid 'easter egg' planted by Stone's editing team, filling some gap they believe was supposed to be there, or genuine unedited Zapruder footage. Editor, Joe Hutshing claims ''we had the entire thing''.
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The white spot remains in exactly the same place within the frame while the background changes by approx one foot per frame for several frames in a row.
It remains in front of JFK for several frames which is too long for it to be a projectile moving towards him. Although it would stay right in front of JFK if it came from Zapruders position but not for multiple frames because the limo was moving one foot per frame. If it was fired from near Zapruder it would only be traveling around 25 mph to be visible for 4 frames.
There is also another white dot of similar size an brightness that appears above Jackies hand towards the end of the clip. I think this dot has to be an artifact of enhancement.
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The white spot remains in exactly the same place within the frame while the background changes by approx one foot per frame for several frames in a row.
It remains in front of JFK for several frames which is too long for it to be a projectile moving towards him. Although it would stay right in front of JFK if it came from Zapruders position but not for multiple frames because the limo was moving one foot per frame. If it was fired from near Zapruder it would only be traveling around 25 mph to be visible for 4 frames.
There is also another white dot of similar size an brightness that appears above Jackies hand towards the end of the clip. I think this dot has to be an artifact of enhancement.
Stone spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and his team did much work hiring George Lucas' editing suit to remove artifacts, to clean the Zapruder film up. You think someone just missed them? -- which doesn't seem real. I've listened to Joe Hutshing talk about the editing process for the film footage used making the film. As you'd expect, they were obsessive about the details. They spent hours and hours watching every frame over and over. Weeks and weeks of editing footage to clear up anomalies. It's just not feasible a professional would not spot these artifacts, as you put it.
Here's the first frame where the projectile is seen to be most brightest, plus almost the last frame it appears before disappearing into JFK's chin area. There's some 2 frames in between these.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQjJny3Y/ezgif.com-resize.gif)
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You are right and i made two mistakes. It is only two frames and the dot does move within the frame. What i still find impossible is how to figure a logical speed and direction it could be coming from.
It moves about one foot across the background in one frame, left to right so the shooter has to be on the left side. If the shooter was perpendicular to Zapruder's position the projectile would be moving at only one foot per frame . If the shooter was near Zapruder we would only see the projectile right in front of JFK in the last 3 or 4 feet of it's travel so it could be going 3 or 4 times faster. If they fired from directly behind Zapruder it could travel 100 feet between frames but it would not travel across the frame as it does, so it has to be left of Zapruder and we would only see it in front of JFK from Z' position during the last few feet of it's path. 4 feet in one frame is about 60 mph. I think something that slow would be visible as it approached but I don't see it.
Where do you think the projectile is coming from and what speed do you think it has to be going to behave as it does?
Other dots appear like the one above Jackies right hand at the end of the clip at frame 240. Is it another projectile fired only 6 frames after the first one? If so you need two shooters.
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You are right and i made two mistakes. It is only two frames and the dot does move within the frame. What i still find impossible is how to figure a logical speed and direction it could be coming from.
It moves about one foot across the background in one frame, left to right so the shooter has to be on the left side. If the shooter was perpendicular to Zapruder's position the projectile would be moving at only one foot per frame . If the shooter was near Zapruder we would only see the projectile right in front of JFK in the last 3 or 4 feet of it's travel so it could be going 3 or 4 times faster. If they fired from directly behind Zapruder it could travel 100 feet between frames but it would not travel across the frame as it does, so it has to be left of Zapruder and we would only see it in front of JFK from Z' position during the last few feet of it's path. 4 feet in one frame is about 60 mph. I think something that slow would be visible as it approached but I don't see it.
Where do you think the projectile is coming from and what speed do you think it has to be going to behave as it does?
Other dots appear like the one above Jackies right hand at the end of the clip at frame 240. Is it another projectile fired only 6 frames after the first one? If so you need two shooters.
The clue to where this 'projectile' is fired from is in the bottom left 1/4 of the frame. The umbrella. If you follow the white dot, it appears to firstly strike JFK's wrist area. It was only through seeing this Gif of the Zapruder frames that I then noticed the dot hits JFK's wrist area. I went and looked at the archives images -- so imagine my amazement that there is a slashing mark on the wrist area of the coat. Have you ever seen this mark on JFK's wrist area discussed? people spend hours debating all the marks on his coat and shirt but yet never has anyone mentioned the slashing mark on his right wrist.
So how does a version of the Zapruder film turn up in Oliver Stone's JFK movie depicting JFK being shot 1) on the wrist 2) in the throat, by Umbrella Man. And the wrist area of JFK's coat does indeed have a slashing mark there. And JFK's autopsy photo appears to show JFK has a red mark in his neck. Plus the Zapruder frames show JFK with a red dot in the same place.
It's either fact or fiction.
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Well coming from Umbrella Man's location sort of works. If it travelled across as JFK moved forward it may stay in the basic same place on JFK's face from Z's location for 2 frames as it does. But it would have to going slow like 20 mph.
I don't think I can weigh in on this other stuff with any authority, but personally the mark on the coat sleeve looks like a blood stain not a tear. The mark on his neck looks like a shadow to me.
I have noticed that many white spots are appearing an disappearing all through the clip. Four appear around Jackie's head and one on Connally's neck. They may all just be artifacts of enhancement and if the general public is not going to catch it why spend the time and money to remove them. That last bit is just my opinion.
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@Chris
The coat sleeve does have blood there. You can see it. But the underneath of the coat is white. Which is coloured by the blood. As you can see in other areas that are also stained.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz7v0Pvp/COAT_SLEEVE.jpg)
You can see the underneath, the white lining. Blood stains are clearly visible on the cuff of the right sleeve. I've actually emailed the last person to examine the coat. Dr Peter Cumming's was part of a PBS show examining the clothing.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/north/2013/11/21/years-later-beverly-forensic-pathologist-examines-evidence-jfk-assassination/p2uA8QQEAQN8Y2qaZMNCyJ/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/north/2013/11/21/years-later-beverly-forensic-pathologist-examines-evidence-jfk-assassination/p2uA8QQEAQN8Y2qaZMNCyJ/story.html)
Dr. Peter Cummings told me that the jacket had blood and brain matter still on the coat. He did not remember if, where I asked - specifically -- on the right sleeve -- that if there was a tear in the coat. He said it was most likely blood or brain matter. Of course, he would not know to look there. As this possible tear in the coat sleeve hasn't been discussed before.
If you align the coat sleeve horizontally with the right sleeve of JFK's in the Zapruder film, the slashing mark across the sleeve is synched. From right to left. But of course, we need someone to examine the coat sleeve, to see if there is indeed a tear in it. I believe that chance can only come with permission of the Kennedy family.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RjFwvCT/arm_slash.gif)
The completed frames speak for themselves. The turn of JFK's head from right to left towards Jackie is synched with the white dot striking JFK's chin area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5mhQQXr/completed_dual_overlay.gif)
Can anyone really deny that we are witnessing cause/effect? motion as a result of that projectile striking JFK's chin area.
And creepily it appears that JFK's forefinger is even pointing towards the Umbrella Man.
Watch the umbrella. The two orange areas. Horizontal flashes inside the umbrella?
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVJwC5Hz/20sec_delay.gif)
Now look at this Willis 5 photo that I found on Jack White's photo collection. The two same horizontal placements: with what appears to be openings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2j1Hbq5C/1_and_2_openings.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cC3MDnKY/blkwhtumbrella.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzXJHnRd/650.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRtFGHMj/flashes.jpg)
The two flashes above are seen in the umbrella just before the white dot is visible near JFK's sleeve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwr0MW2p/combined.jpg)
If you'd like to discuss that other white dot/object entering the frame, message me. It's going to derail this post otherwise.
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Your dots at the umbrella are reflections in the side panel of the limo. Those 2 dots stay on the side of the limo as the car moves forward. Then you can see it is Chaneys bike that is the source of those reflected dots.They never go past that position on the limo, they do not travel to JFK. If they were projectiles they were moving at about the same speed as the limo!! Impossible.
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Your dots at the umbrella are reflections in the side panel of the limo. Those 2 dots stay on the side of the limo as the car moves forward. Then you can see it is Chaneys bike that is the source of those reflected dots.They never go past that position on the limo, they do not travel to JFK. If they were projectiles they were moving at about the same speed as the limo!! Impossible.
Those two orange dots, or flashes, that I circled, they are in the umbrella webbing. I didn't say anywhere, that they 'travel to JFK'. They also correspond with the two openings seen in Willis 5, as I've shown. In fact, they move forwards, and backwards, in sync with the movement of the umbrella, synched momentarily just before the white projectile striking JFK's chin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVJwC5Hz/20sec_delay.gif)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/C127t4B7/umbrella_man_DC_man.gif)
They (the two orange flashes in the umbrella) clearly move back n forth. As indeed does the umbrella. Which some might say is recoil
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Stick with the JFK coat sleeve. Prove what we are seeing on that sleeve is the result of a 4th bullet = 2nd shooter. Then proceed to where that shot originated. Going right into an Umbrella Shooter is a "cart before the horse" situation. It would help your case if you can find visual proof placing a time stamp for the sleeve damage occurring Before the Kill Shot. On this forum, you continue to be 2nd to none when it comes to this type of JFK Assassination investigative work. Thumb1:
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Wait, those two dots from the umbrella are NOT the projectiles? What are they supposed to be?
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Stick with the JFK coat sleeve. Prove what we are seeing on that sleeve is the result of a 4th bullet = 2nd shooter. Then proceed to where that shot originated. Going right into an Umbrella Shooter is a "cart before the horse" situation. It would help your case if you can find visual proof placing a time stamp for the sleeve damage occurring Before the Kill Shot. On this forum, you continue to be 2nd to none when it comes to this type of JFK Assassination investigative work. Thumb1:
Well I haven't posted everything I've been researching. I am just reposting this since the site got hacked.
If you look at these Zapruder frames (I've tried to find the clearest frames) they, indeed, appear to show a white mark on the coat sleeve before the fatal 313 head explosion. Of course, it's not 100% this is the slashing mark on the sleeve I have noticed. This could be a coat button -- I haven't, yet, determined that.
(A) white mark on the sleeve is present before z313.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG8HLkfM/Zap_frame_252.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxKGq0mz/combined.jpg)
TBH, other than the clearest 253 frame, they're not really clear enough to tell what that white patch is, either button of the mark I've spotted. I haven't found decent enough frames to really tell. There are several frames that show a faint white mark.
They're in the correct area of the slashing mark on the coat sleeve, though.
And the mark wasn't there on the sleeve before the assassination. Just seconds earlier.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzX9RT0v/sleeveshot.jpg)
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Wait, those two dots from the umbrella are NOT the projectiles? What are they supposed to be?
If you mean the orange, what I called flashes, I presume they're coming out of the two openings that also appear in Willis 5. Muzzle flash? I don't know. I have done some research on the weapon Helm's described to the Church Committee as the 'nondiscernible microbionoculator' which was electronically capable firing mechanism - launching self propelled darts, or firing small calibre bullets. This was part of ?M.K. Naomi'' -- which isn't entirely declassified, so we know nothing of the weapons in use. I know the Chaney debate. But what if the umbrella shooter fired and those lights are actually from the umbrella - and clever painting disguises them to be Chaney. I personally believe the umbrella weapon is capable of firing self-propelled missiles. Electronically triggered, not creating muzzle flash (going from everything I've read) I have some text from Col.Prouty, which he observed the alleged umbrella weapon system live firing at a goat.
To: Irv Heineman - March 12/99
To pick up your question that has to do with the explosive bullet of the JFK era, I shall open Leonard Moseley's fine book, DULLES. On page 459 it provides some good comments on this bullet, etc. by commenting ALLEN DULLES: Now he was interested in the more sinister Agency experiments in mind bending drugs, portable phials of lethal viruses and esoteric poisons that killed without trace. Allen's sense of humor was touched when he learned that the unit working on these noxious enterprises was called the Health Alteration Committee (directed by Dr. Sidney Gottlieb and Boris Pash), and he added to his collection of CIA curios a noiseless gun which the committee had produced for firing darts smeared with LSD, germs, or venom at enemy agents or foreign personalities whose existence the CIA was finding embarrassing."
You will note, in this opener, we have the names "Gottleib and Pash." It just happens that Gottlieb died on March 7, 1999 in Washington, DC. I worked rather closely with him and his staff, MKULTRA during certain years of my assignment in the Pentagon under Gen. Erskine and with Lansdale. This is where our story begins.
One day Lansdale came across the hall to my office with a man whom he addressed as the "Inventor" of a new small, and special weapon which he would like to have us study. The man remained in my office for an hour or more as he took that small weapon that was little more than a high-powered "dart" that was fired from a pipe-let about the size of a "milk-shake straw". The tip of this device could be loaded with a high explosive, and the whole thing could be fired through this "straw" from any small pipe, or barrel. In his eagerness, he inserted one into a straw section about 10 or 12" inches long. Then he lightly touched a small button and in a silent instant it flashed across my office, into the wall on the other side.
As he calmed me down he told me that this device could be fired from many devices...one of the best might be an ordinary umbrella modified to fired it through a "straw-like' tube at high and silent speed. It would be silent and would explode upon hitting its target...say another human being.
A week later Ed Lansdale and I took a helicopter ride from the Pentagon to a special laboratory that had been working with the inventor and some of their staff of specialists. In a short time they had adequately demonstrated this new, silent device. It killed a goat at a distance of about 30-40 feet.
Of the many devices these men had worked on was an umbrella. The handle contained the hand-activated, silent trigger. This fired the small rocket at the goat. The deadly part of this tiny weapon was a sight set at about the sight in the handle to be even with a tip of the umbrella rib. The sight and umbrella were designed to be in a perfectly straight and level line. The dart would hit the "target-animal" silently and at high speed. Then it would be exploded with a terrific burst inside the body of the target. Anyone could see that this weapon was lethal.
Lansdale and I returned to the Pentagon and as far as I recall this device was entered into the MKULTRA arsenal of special "toys."
I believe that this is the weapon you have described in your e-mail message. I have always believed that it would be uncovered in due time. Perhaps the timely death of Col Gottlieb. opened the door. Much can be said about this weapon and its possible utilization as the JFK assassination tool.
You may be interested to know that there is a new assassination book, "ASSASSINATION SCIENCE" on the market by a skilled team of doctors who are familiar with the JFK Assassinations and the medical work that has been studied since then. I suggest you get the book, and speak to these specialists.
Thank you for your note,
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I think in saying they may have cleverly airbrushed the muzzle flash to look like Chaney's reflection is reaching way too far, imo. What you have is all speculation based on photographic images. Ay this point it seems more logical to assume those are reflections of Chaney and the white dot on JFK's neck is the same type of artifact I see all over those images. I saw many appear around Jackies head that look just like the JFK dot. Enhancement programs do add things like this so at this point I don't find your argument compelling.
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It really appears to be a camera/film artifact of some sort.... Here's another similar image in another frame....
(https://image.ibb.co/jduVRL/Screen-Shot-2018-10-15-at-8-47-34-PM.png)
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In order for a bullet to be captured on film the film has to be running at about 2,000 frames per second. The Zapruder film did not and could not capture a bullet or any projectile.
What you are pointing to on the suit coat sleeve is brain matter. Nothing more. Go to the national archives and view the prints. The matter is as clear as a tolling bell.
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In order for a bullet to be captured on film the film has to be running at about 2,000 frames per second. The Zapruder film did not and could not capture a bullet or any projectile.
What you are pointing to on the suit coat sleeve is brain matter. Nothing more. Go to the national archives and view the prints. The matter is as clear as a tolling bell.
Robert Reeves has documented that the "white dot" on JFK's (R) coat sleeve appears on Zapruder frames #253 and #254. This "white dot" would therefore be on JFK's coat sleeve Prior to Z Frame #313 which is when the Kill Shot struck and JFK 's head exploded. This would disqualify that white dot on the coat sleeve as being "brain matter". That is, unless you are inferring there has been alteration done to the Current Zapruder Film.
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In order for a bullet to be captured on film the film has to be running at about 2,000 frames per second. The Zapruder film did not and could not capture a bullet or any projectile.
What you are pointing to on the suit coat sleeve is brain matter. Nothing more. Go to the national archives and view the prints. The matter is as clear as a tolling bell.
Funny how you are now an expert on the condition of the right sleeve of JFK's jacket even though you have never ever even personally inspected it. Or have you?
I have contacted the archives and requested a photograph of the area in question. Hopefully they will grant me a close up of the marked area. I have been in contact with the last person to physically handle the coat and even he wasn't sure he saw brain matter over a tear in the fabric.
At the moment all we have is speculation. If I am granted any photography of the jacket sleeve I will post it here.
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Funny how you are now an expert on the condition of the right sleeve of JFK's jacket even though you have never ever even personally inspected it. Or have you?
I have contacted the archives and requested a photograph of the area in question. Hopefully they will grant me a close up of the marked area. I have been in contact with the last person to physically handle the coat and even he wasn't sure he saw brain matter over a tear in the fabric.
At the moment all we have is speculation. If I am granted any photography of the jacket sleeve I will post it here.
It isn't any funnier than you creating all kinds of theories and seeing things in the films and photos that aren't there, or, they aren't what you claim they are.
No, at the moment, we do not have speculation, re the pink matter on the coat sleeve. You apparently haven't examined the clearest Zapruder film frames. Are you not aware that there are several large bits of brain falling from the head wound downward and into the path of the arm of President Kennedy? I have never claimed to be an "expert", but I do use common sense, and I do see brain tissue falling in the direction of the upraised arm. Some of which landed on the arm suit coat.
(https://i.imgur.com/tLuWnSr.jpg)