JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Robin Unger on September 30, 2018, 10:09:46 PM
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We know thanks to the Bookhout report that the the fritz notes "out with Bill Shelley in front" comment
does NOT refer to during the assassination Timeline, but actually refers to the Timeline just prior to Oswald leaving the TSBD and going home.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm (http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f0psqMPYkrI/WGPDBO94pxI/AAAAAAAAAao/7K7NrmvojrcLF28yEoL9cacNuaUFV-q5ACLcB/s1600/shelley.jpg)
Crop from the Bookhout report
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-afhWgaUJPac/WGPDSVEKmMI/AAAAAAAAAas/BXUEWt1K26YGpmkg0rHODQK0uEycUK30gCLcB/s1600/Oswald.jpg)
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Two things to note from this....
Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter. This makes both the descent timing tighter but also the spotting of LHO by Baker through the door window difficult.
Secondly, it has LHO claiming to not fleeing the scene but almost the reverse. From the 2nd floor, instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor, possible points out the phone to a journalist, then proceed to mill outside of the TSBD with Shelley.
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Two things to note from this....
Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter. This makes both the descent timing tighter but also the spotting of LHO by Baker through the door window difficult.
Secondly, it has LHO claiming to not fleeing the scene but almost the reverse. From the 2nd floor, instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor, possible points out the phone to a journalist, then proceed to mill outside of the TSBD with Shelley.
At the time of the report of FBI SA JamesBookhout about the statement by LeeHarveyOswald, the evidentiary value of the timing of the soft drink purchase, whether before or after the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter, had not been established. And, it could very well be a mistake made in the noted timing as transcribed, but in any event the timing raises questions about the LeeHarveyOswald/LoneGunmanAssassin Theory, and eliminates the LeeHarveyOswald/ PrayerManImage Theory.
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Must be the dumbest attempt ever. Not hard to check with Shelley, who was likely still in the vicinity.
Then again, Oswald was dead by the time it was dictated, so who knows what he meant.
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Two things to note from this....
Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter. This makes both the descent timing tighter but also the spotting of LHO by Baker through the door window difficult.
Secondly, it has LHO claiming to not fleeing the scene but almost the reverse. From the 2nd floor, instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor, possible points out the phone to a journalist, then proceed to mill outside of the TSBD with Shelley.
Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter.
This statement is corroborated by Roy Truly when Truly talked to a reporter about a week after the coup d e'tat. Truly told the reporter that Lee was in the lunchroom drinking a coke at the time that he and Baker encountered Lee there.
instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor
Where does it say that Lee took the route across the second floor? It is commonly accepted that Lee traveled through the second floor office are and passed by Mrs Reid after he was dismissed as a non suspect by DPD officer Marrion Baker.
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We know thanks to the Bookhout report that the the fritz notes "out with Bill Shelley in front" comment
does NOT refer to during the assassination Timeline, but actually refers to the Timeline just prior to Oswald leaving the TSBD and going home.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm (http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f0psqMPYkrI/WGPDBO94pxI/AAAAAAAAAao/7K7NrmvojrcLF28yEoL9cacNuaUFV-q5ACLcB/s1600/shelley.jpg)
Crop from the Bookhout report
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-afhWgaUJPac/WGPDSVEKmMI/AAAAAAAAAas/BXUEWt1K26YGpmkg0rHODQK0uEycUK30gCLcB/s1600/Oswald.jpg)
How many days after the shooting were these notes made, Robin? More than five?
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OK Brian, enough is enough. I'm calling it now; yours is a joke comment right? I know it's a joke comment because is so farking mad it can't be anything but a joke.
I'll bet Albut's writing a screenplay about all this. I hear his friend Ralph Cinque has a movie in production entitled, "My Stretch of Texas Ground", having something to do with 'swarthy ayrabs' and stuff. The other working title, I hear, is....... "Lil' Skid Mark"
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The photo (linked beneath) shows the actual shirt which Oswald wore on Nov 22 at the time when JFK was assassinated:
http://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMzOkyvQ8mf9VlhdxRWXJd4kFeSYUgrWxZoiW_C?hl=sv (http://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMzOkyvQ8mf9VlhdxRWXJd4kFeSYUgrWxZoiW_C?hl=sv)
More information available here: http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence (http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence)
Best Rgds,
Christer
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Stanton herself said she spoke to Oswald and he said he was going back in to the breakroom where he just got a soda.
Cite please
Hearsay from Stanton's daughter-in-law.
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(https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/010/10408/images/img_10408_24_300.png)
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Stanton signed it, Brian. That's what "/s/" means.
The FBI altered a statement that Carolyn Arnold signed? Do tell.
This is from ny "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series. The key point IMO is that the FBI altered what she stated and not if her statement was signed or not. The FBI repeatedly did this in this case.
Quote on
This is why, as I brought to light in Photographic Whitewash (pages 210-11) in early 1967, the Commission's OWN files REVEAL THE PROOF that Mrs. R.E. (Carolyn) Arnold told the FBI that SHE HAD SEEN OSWALD on the FIRST FLOOR that day AT 12:25 P.M.!
Aware of the import, when the FBI interviewed her on November 26, four days after the assassination, it MISTIMED what she said, stating INCORRECTLY that it was a "few minutes BEFORE 12:15 P.M." that she saw Oswald.
When in March, 1964, the Commission asked the FBI to interview all employees in that building and asked them to respond to five Commission questions, Mrs. Arnold STATED THE TIME WAS "AT ABOUT 12:25 P.M."
In taking those March statements the FBI agents who asked the questions wrote out in longhand on yellowpads what they then asked the witnesses to sign. Still acutely aware of the meaning of what Mrs. Arnold said, that she SAW OSWALD ON THE FIRST FLOOR, "between the front door and the double doors to the warehouse," in the handwritten statement the FBI then asked her to sign it again MISTATED the time. The statement SET THE TIME she gave INCORRECTLY still again, placing it at "12:25 A.M."! SHE CORRECTED THIS IN HER OWN HANDWRITING.
The FBI then typed these handwritten statements for the Commission. In even its typed form, in facsimile on page 211 of that third of my books, it is APPARENT that the time was CHANGED from A.M. TO P.M. The "P.M." is the ONLY typing on that full page that is OUT OF LINE. It is considerably above the line, as happened with the typewriters of those days when what is typed is REMOVED and then PLACED BACK in the typewriter.
Harold Weisberg, Case Open, Carroll & Graf, 1994, pages 122-23 (Emphasis mine)
Quote off
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No, we're saying that you are stating things as fact that are not fact.
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Great.. two idiots at the same time....
Did he have it on at the TSBD on 11/22/63, or at Bledsoe's house when he stayed there, or on television showing him after his arrest..... and so on......
OK boys, show us where she said he had it on on the bus!
And don't be afraid to show off your reading inability!
If you put as much effort into reading the evidence as you put into your weak insults then maybe you wouldn't be known as the Forum Clown.
Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was around your house?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - First time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
JohnM
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If you put as much effort into reading the evidence as you put into your weak insults then maybe you wouldn't be known as the Forum Clown.
Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was around your house?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - First time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
JohnM
Uh-huh....... wtf?
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Uh-huh....... wtf?
uh-huh interjection
\ᵊm or ᵊn, repeated and separated by the voiceless sound h; ˈəⁿ-(ˌ)həⁿ, (ˌ)əⁿ-ˈ\
Definition of uh-huh
?used to indicate affirmation, agreement, or gratification
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh
JohnM
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uh-huh interjection
\ᵊm or ᵊn, repeated and separated by the voiceless sound h; ˈəⁿ-(ˌ)həⁿ, (ˌ)əⁿ-ˈ\
Definition of uh-huh
?used to indicate affirmation, agreement, or gratification
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh
JohnM
She used "Uh-huh" more than 60 times in her WC testimony and in each instance the only sensible interpretation is that it means "Yes".
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
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She used "Uh-huh" more than 60 times in her WC testimony and in each instance the only sensible interpretation is that it means "Yes".
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
So now we are interpretating sounds rather than simply asking a witness under oath what that sound means..... Great stuff!
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If you put as much effort into reading the evidence as you put into your weak insults then maybe you wouldn't be known as the Forum Clown.
Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was around your house?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - First time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
JohnM
Why don't you provide supporting evidence for Bledsoe's claim that LHO spent time at her rooming house?
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So now we are interpretating sounds rather than simply asking a witness under oath what that sound means..... Great stuff!
I wasn't there to ask her to to use "yes" instead of "Uh-huh" and it's likely IMO that those who were there found it grating. It is obviously her substitute for yes and if the intent was to make a witness relaxed then it would be poor form to pull her up every time and remind her to articulate "yes".
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Why don't you provide supporting evidence for Bledsoe's claim that LHO spent time at her rooming house?
Why do you keep running Caprio, I continually post evidence and you continually ignore it.
Let's take a look at the following Bledsoe affidavit and can you tell us how Bledsoe on the very next day knew so much about the bus journey that Oswald took, or was she just part of your massive/tiny conspiracy?
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe, w/f 67, 621 N. Marsalis, Dallas, Texas, Telephone WH2-1985 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
Last Friday, November 22, 1963, I went downtown to see the President. I stood on Main Street just across the street from Titche's until the parade passed by. The I walked over to Elm Street and caught a bus to go home. The bus traveled West on Elm Street to about Murphy Street and made a stop and that is when I saw Lee Oswald get on the bus. The traffic was heavy and it took quite sometime [sic] to travel two or three blocks. During that time someone made the statement that the President had been shot and while the bus was stopped due to the heavy traffic, Oswald got off the bus and I didn't see him again. I know this man was Lee Oswald because he lived in my home from October 7, 1963 to October 14, 1963.
/s/ Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
JohnM
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I wasn't there to ask her to to use "yes" instead of "Uh-huh" and it's likely IMO that those who were there found it grating. It is obviously her substitute for yes and if the intent was to make a witness relaxed then it would be poor form to pull her up every time and remind her to articulate "yes".
"It is obviously"
Really?
But then again, it's only the murder of a President, so yes... let's just go with "Uh-huh", right?
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I wasn't there to ask her to to use "yes" instead of "Uh-huh" and it's likely IMO that those who were there found it grating. It is obviously her substitute for yes and if the intent was to make a witness relaxed then it would be poor form to pull her up every time and remind her to articulate "yes".
Steve, you are absolutely right, "uh-huh" has and will always be perfectly interchangeable with "yes" and since Weidmann was caught out yet again he's trying this worthless tact as diversion.
JohnM
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"It is obviously"
Really?
But then again, it's only the murder of a President, so yes... let's just go with "Uh-huh", right?
On more than 60 occasions she used "Uh-huh". Read her testimony and see for yourself that it is obviously her substitute for "Yes".
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Why do you keep running Caprio, I continually post evidence and you continually ignore it.
Let's take a look at the following Bledsoe affidavit and can you tell us how Bledsoe on the very next day knew so much about the bus journey that Oswald took, or was she just part of your massive/tiny conspiracy?
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe, w/f 67, 621 N. Marsalis, Dallas, Texas, Telephone WH2-1985 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
Last Friday, November 22, 1963, I went downtown to see the President. I stood on Main Street just across the street from Titche's until the parade passed by. The I walked over to Elm Street and caught a bus to go home. The bus traveled West on Elm Street to about Murphy Street and made a stop and that is when I saw Lee Oswald get on the bus. The traffic was heavy and it took quite sometime [sic] to travel two or three blocks. During that time someone made the statement that the President had been shot and while the bus was stopped due to the heavy traffic, Oswald got off the bus and I didn't see him again. I know this man was Lee Oswald because he lived in my home from October 7, 1963 to October 14, 1963.
/s/ Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
JohnM
Only in Johnny's world is an affidavit by Bledsoe proof for Bledsoe's claim that Oswald spent time at her boarding house!
can you tell us how Bledsoe on the very next day knew so much about the bus journey that Oswald took,
Nope, but Bledsoe gave her affidavit one day after Oswald was arrested and her her claim (true or false) may well have been the origin for that particular WC story.
Btw, and this might confuse Johnny, I do think it is fair to conclude from the available evidence that somebody who looked like Oswald did get on a bus coming down Elm street.
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Steve, you are absolutely right, "uh-huh" has and will always be perfectly interchangeable with "yes" and since Weidmann was caught out yet again he's trying this worthless tact as diversion.
JohnM
On more than 60 occasions she used "Uh-huh". Read her testimony and see for yourself that it is obviously her substitute for "Yes".
So, when it involves the murder of a President "Uh-huh" will do nicely, right?
No need to ask what she means by that, right?
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"It is obviously"
Really?
But then again, it's only the murder of a President, so yes... let's just go with "Uh-huh", right?
Wow what a back-pedaler, you were blatantly wrong about Bledsoe's testimony so instead of simply admitting you were wrong and accepting that in every dictionary "Uh-huh" has always been synonymous with the word "yes" you again try to reinvent the English Language.
JohnM
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So, when it involves the murder of a President "Uh-huh" will do nicely, right?
No need to ask what she means by that, right?
A sensible listener then knew what she meant and a sensible reader today knows what she meant on 60+ occasions.
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A sensible listener then knew what she meant and a sensible reader today knows what she meant on 60+ occasions.
Sure, just keep telling yourself that
When a President is killed, that's all you need, right?
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Wow what a back-pedaler, you were blatantly wrong about Bledsoe's testimony so instead of simply admitting you were wrong and accepting that in every dictionary "Uh-huh" has always been synonymous with the word "yes" you again try to reinvent the English Language.
JohnM
Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus. Deal with it.
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Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus.
So you have rock solid proof of this? That sounds like bluster to me.
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Only in Johnny's world is an affidavit by Bledsoe proof for Bledsoe's claim that Oswald spent time at her boarding house!
can you tell us how Bledsoe on the very next day knew so much about the bus journey that Oswald took,
Nope, but Bledsoe gave her affidavit one day after Oswald was arrested and her her claim (true or false) may well have been the origin for that particular WC story.
Btw, and this might confuse Johnny, I do think it is fair to conclude from the available evidence that somebody who looked like Oswald did get on a bus coming down Elm street.
Only in Johnny's world is an affidavit by Bledsoe proof for Bledsoe's claim that Oswald spent time at her boarding house!
Stop making up stuff, I never made that claim.
Nope, but Bledsoe gave her affidavit one day after Oswald was arrested and her her claim (true or false) may well have been the origin for that particular WC story.
And what about McWatters who confirms all of Bledsoes recollections?
Btw, and this might confuse Johnny, I do think it is fair to conclude from the available evidence that somebody who looked like Oswald did get on a bus coming down Elm street.
Yes Oswald looked like Oswald and he had McWatters Bus transfer in his pocket and besides multiple interrogators said that Oswald admitted being on a bus.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZcn4zYY/front-and-back-bus-transfer.jpg)
JohnM
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Stop making up stuff, I never made that claim.
And what about McWatters who confirms all of Bledsoes recollections?
Yes Oswald looked like Oswald and he had McWatters Bus transfer in his pocket and besides multiple interrogators said that Oswald admitted being on a bus.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZcn4zYY/front-and-back-bus-transfer.jpg)
JohnM
Stop making up stuff, I never made that claim.
And you never presented Bledsoe's affidavit to make the point, right?
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Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus. Deal with it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, well?
JohnM
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, well?
JohnM
Yes, too bad you haven't got any!
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Yes, too bad you haven't got any!
You said that Bledsoe did not see Oswald on the bus. Where's the evidence for that claim?
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Why do you keep running Caprio, I continually post evidence and you continually ignore it.
Let's take a look at the following Bledsoe affidavit and can you tell us how Bledsoe on the very next day knew so much about the bus journey that Oswald took, or was she just part of your massive/tiny conspiracy?
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe, w/f 67, 621 N. Marsalis, Dallas, Texas, Telephone WH2-1985 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
Last Friday, November 22, 1963, I went downtown to see the President. I stood on Main Street just across the street from Titche's until the parade passed by. The I walked over to Elm Street and caught a bus to go home. The bus traveled West on Elm Street to about Murphy Street and made a stop and that is when I saw Lee Oswald get on the bus. The traffic was heavy and it took quite sometime [sic] to travel two or three blocks. During that time someone made the statement that the President had been shot and while the bus was stopped due to the heavy traffic, Oswald got off the bus and I didn't see him again. I know this man was Lee Oswald because he lived in my home from October 7, 1963 to October 14, 1963.
/s/ Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
JohnM
This is her claim, but where is the supporting evidence for it? Why do you disregard the affidavits by Weitzman and Boone, but put complete faith in Bledsoe's?
Why can't you ever cite supporting evidence?
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Stop making up stuff, I never made that claim.
And what about McWatters who confirms all of Bledsoes recollections?
Yes Oswald looked like Oswald and he had McWatters Bus transfer in his pocket and besides multiple interrogators said that Oswald admitted being on a bus.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZcn4zYY/front-and-back-bus-transfer.jpg)
JohnM
You're not telling the truth again. No surprise there.
It is funny that you would use those resources since they show that LHO said that he took a bus to his rooming house if valid.
***************************************
This one is short and sweet regarding the issue of Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) taking a cab to his rooming house following his departure from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building.
Note -- I should also state that the PURPOSE of this series is to show the CLAIMS of the WC are NOT supported by the actual evidence. This series is NOT about my opinions, beliefs, or anything else regarding my thoughts. I need to make this clear since several LNers are misleading folks as to my motive for this series!
********************************************
The Warren Commission (WC) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) left the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) and took a bus AND A CAB to get to his rooming house room to retrieve the pistol and jacket. But as John Mytton showed Captain Will Fritz testified to something else LHO said he did!
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
IF one believes this testimony, and LNers have to, it shows us LHO said he took the BUS NEAR TO WHERE HE WAS STAYING, and NEVER took a cab as the WC claimed! Thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
**************************************************************
McWatters, the guy driving the supposed bus LHO took per the WC, said that LHO was NEVER on his bus.
*********************************************
The Warren Commission (WC) would have liked to have had more than Mary Bledsoe to rely on for the identification on the bus Lee LHO Harvey Oswald (LHO) allegedly took when he left the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) shortly after the shots were fired (a bus that was HEADING BACK to Dealey Plaza (DP) by the way) because as we have seen previously in this series they could NOT show Bledsoe ever saw or knew LHO prior to 11/22/63.
Initially the Dallas Police Department (DPD) got Cecil McWatters to say he identified Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) as the man on his bus, but he quickly recanted this statement. The WC and its defenders make a big deal about a bus transfer allegedly found on LHO (I have to say this because it was NOT found for some time after he was arrested and searched), but this transfer was EXPIRED by the time LHO reached his rooming house and he said he changed shirts. So why would LHO bring an EXPIRED transfer with him? Let's look at Cecil Mcwatters' testimony regarding the transfer.
*******************************************
Senator COOPER - Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?
Mr. McWATTERS - I guess that would probably be--
Senator COOPER - Another man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That would probably be the reason. I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.
Senator COOPER - Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Do you mean the day?
Senator COOPER - A man other than the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I picked up a man.
Senator COOPER - Where?
Mr. McWATTERS - Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.
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Senator COOPER - Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.
In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there--
So we see he says he was mistaken for saying he gave a transfer to LHO. Let's face it, this could have been a man involved in some way that got a transfer simply to pin on LHO later on to try and show he was on this bus.
Senator COOPER - What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it--
Senator COOPER - Does each--does each-driver have a different punch?
Mr. BALL - When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.
Mr. McWATTERS - Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when-
First of all, it is quite annoying the way McWatters was constantly cut off. Secondly, we see the transfer in evidence came from McWatters' punch gun, but since there is NO chain of custody for the transfer this is meaningless in tying it to LHO. Furthermore, the man who would have given out this transfer said it was NOT LHO too.
It becomes clear that McWatters initially confused LHO for a teenager he has on his bus a lot. Milton Jones.
Senator COOPER - Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?
Mr. McWATTERS - Did I ever report it to the police?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
I wonder why the police never followed up with him?
Senator COOPER - Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Have I saw them?
Senator COOPER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face of course, I know him now, distinctly.
So we see why he confused Jones for LHO on the day of the assassination. Now for the issue of whether he would say LHO was on the bus and whether he gave him a transfer as the WC would claim.
Mr. BALL - You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.
Mr. McWATTERS - I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't--
Mr. BALL - You couldn't do it?
Mr. McWATTERS - I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.
"This man" of course was LHO as they mention the "number 2 man" in other parts of the testimony. We see that McWatters would NOT say the man who boarded his bus and got a transfer was LHO. Again, we see the WC, and its defenders, have NO supporting evidence for their claims.
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This is her claim, but where is the supporting evidence for it? Why do you disregard the affidavits by Weitzman and Boone, but put complete faith in Bledsoe's?
Why can't you ever cite supporting evidence?
Why can't you ever cite supporting evidence?
You really are a miserable boring old lying Fart who can't handle the evidence, but understand this, I am the only one who has actually posted any relevant evidence;
I posted Bledsoe's affidavit.
I posted Oswald's bus transfer.
I posted Fritz's testimony saying Oswald said he caught a Bus and Cab.
I posted Bookout's testimony saying Oswald said he caught a Bus and Cab.
I posted McWatters testimony that supports Bledoe's recollections.
And you in return you have only rubber stamped each of your replies with your exceedingly tedious "supporting evidence?" mantra. It's no wonder why your posts were removed, you're genuinely certifiable.
JohnM
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You really are a miserable boring old lying Fart who can't handle the evidence, but understand this, I am the only one who has actually posted any relevant evidence;
I posted Bledsoe's affidavit.
I posted Oswald's bus transfer.
I posted Fritz's testimony saying Oswald said he caught a Bus and Cab.
I posted Bookout's testimony saying Oswald said he caught a Bus and Cab.
I posted McWatters testimony that supports Bledoe's recollections.
And you in return you have only rubber stamped each of your replies with your exceedingly tedious "supporting evidence?" mantra. It's no wonder why your posts were removed, you're genuinely certifiable.
JohnM
You've posted *claims* that are NOT supported by the actual evidence. That is why you avoid the actual evidence at all cost. You have presented nothing that shows that Bledsoe knew LHO by sight or that LHO took McWatters' bus.
You're sunk. 🚽
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You've posted *claims* that are NOT supported by the actual evidence. That is why you avoid the actual evidence at all cost. You have presented nothing that shows that Bledsoe knew LHO by sight or that LHO took McWatters' bus.
You're sunk. 🚽
So you have no answers, no worries.
JohnM
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You're not telling the truth again. No surprise there.
It is funny that you would use those resources since they show that LHO said that he took a bus to his rooming house if valid.
***************************************
This one is short and sweet regarding the issue of Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) taking a cab to his rooming house following his departure from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building.
Note -- I should also state that the PURPOSE of this series is to show the CLAIMS of the WC are NOT supported by the actual evidence. This series is NOT about my opinions, beliefs, or anything else regarding my thoughts. I need to make this clear since several LNers are misleading folks as to my motive for this series!
********************************************
The Warren Commission (WC) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) left the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) and took a bus AND A CAB to get to his rooming house room to retrieve the pistol and jacket. But as John Mytton showed Captain Will Fritz testified to something else LHO said he did!
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
IF one believes this testimony, and LNers have to, it shows us LHO said he took the BUS NEAR TO WHERE HE WAS STAYING, and NEVER took a cab as the WC claimed! Thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
**************************************************************
McWatters, the guy driving the supposed bus LHO took per the WC, said that LHO was NEVER on his bus.
*********************************************
The Warren Commission (WC) would have liked to have had more than Mary Bledsoe to rely on for the identification on the bus Lee LHO Harvey Oswald (LHO) allegedly took when he left the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) shortly after the shots were fired (a bus that was HEADING BACK to Dealey Plaza (DP) by the way) because as we have seen previously in this series they could NOT show Bledsoe ever saw or knew LHO prior to 11/22/63.
Initially the Dallas Police Department (DPD) got Cecil McWatters to say he identified Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) as the man on his bus, but he quickly recanted this statement. The WC and its defenders make a big deal about a bus transfer allegedly found on LHO (I have to say this because it was NOT found for some time after he was arrested and searched), but this transfer was EXPIRED by the time LHO reached his rooming house and he said he changed shirts. So why would LHO bring an EXPIRED transfer with him? Let's look at Cecil Mcwatters' testimony regarding the transfer.
*******************************************
Senator COOPER - Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?
Mr. McWATTERS - I guess that would probably be--
Senator COOPER - Another man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That would probably be the reason. I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.
Senator COOPER - Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Do you mean the day?
Senator COOPER - A man other than the teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I picked up a man.
Senator COOPER - Where?
Mr. McWATTERS - Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.
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Senator COOPER - Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.
In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there--
So we see he says he was mistaken for saying he gave a transfer to LHO. Let's face it, this could have been a man involved in some way that got a transfer simply to pin on LHO later on to try and show he was on this bus.
Senator COOPER - What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it--
Senator COOPER - Does each--does each-driver have a different punch?
Mr. BALL - When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.
Mr. McWATTERS - Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when-
First of all, it is quite annoying the way McWatters was constantly cut off. Secondly, we see the transfer in evidence came from McWatters' punch gun, but since there is NO chain of custody for the transfer this is meaningless in tying it to LHO. Furthermore, the man who would have given out this transfer said it was NOT LHO too.
It becomes clear that McWatters initially confused LHO for a teenager he has on his bus a lot. Milton Jones.
Senator COOPER - Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?
Mr. McWATTERS - Did I ever report it to the police?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
I wonder why the police never followed up with him?
Senator COOPER - Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Have I saw them?
Senator COOPER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face of course, I know him now, distinctly.
So we see why he confused Jones for LHO on the day of the assassination. Now for the issue of whether he would say LHO was on the bus and whether he gave him a transfer as the WC would claim.
Mr. BALL - You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.
Mr. McWATTERS - I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't--
Mr. BALL - You couldn't do it?
Mr. McWATTERS - I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.
"This man" of course was LHO as they mention the "number 2 man" in other parts of the testimony. We see that McWatters would NOT say the man who boarded his bus and got a transfer was LHO. Again, we see the WC, and its defenders, have NO supporting evidence for their claims.
You're a classic Caprio, this is just another reason why you are thrown off so many Forums and why all your posts were removed from here, you claim to know all the evidence and naively assume that you won't be checked but unfortunately some people will check fact you, and again here you deliberately leave out evidence that you know cripples your case. What's wrong with being honest?
Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you to tell me what he said about the transfer.
Mr. FRITZ. He told he that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab.
So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.I asked him how much the cab fare was, he said 85 cents.
JohnM
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So you have no answers, no worries.
JohnM
Incorrect. You have NO supporting evidence as usual.
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You're a classic Caprio, this is just another reason why you are thrown off so many Forums and why all your posts were removed from here, you claim to know all the evidence and naively assume that you won't be checked but unfortunately some people will check fact you, and again here you deliberately leave out evidence that you know cripples your case. What's wrong with being honest?
Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you to tell me what he said about the transfer.
Mr. FRITZ. He told he that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab.
So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.I asked him how much the cab fare was, he said 85 cents.
JohnM
More distractions. Fritz' claims do not trump the man who would have given LHO the transfer. This is why the authorities should have recorded and made a stenographic record of these supposed interviews with LHO.
You're sunk Mytton. Live with it.
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More distractions. Fritz' claims do not trump the man who would have given LHO the transfer. This is why the authorities should have recorded and made a stenographic record of these supposed interviews with LHO.
You're sunk Mytton. Live with it.
More distractions. Fritz' claims do not trump the man who would have given LHO the transfer.
So when you misquote Fritz it's supporting evidence and when I correct your mistake it's a distraction, no wonder nobody wants you on their Forums.
This is why the authorities should have recorded and made a stenographic record of these supposed interviews with LHO.
Oswald denied the rifle.
Oswald denied the backyard photos
Oswald denied killing Kennedy
Oswald denied killing Tippit.
You're sunk Mytton. Live with it.
Yeah yeah as you keep saying but everytime you say I'm sunk you are no closer to a solution, go figure.
JohnM
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So when you misquote Fritz it's supporting evidence and when I correct your mistake it's a distraction, no wonder nobody wants you on their Forums.
Oswald denied the rifle.
Oswald denied the backyard photos
Oswald denied killing Kennedy
Oswald denied killing Tippit.
Yeah yeah as you keep saying but everytime you say I'm sunk you are no closer to a solution, go figure.
JohnM
Where did I misquote Fritz? So you have nothing. Got it.
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Where did I misquote Fritz? So you have nothing. Got it.
Fritz tells us that after Oswald was caught lying, Oswald admitted catching a bus and cab but you just want to deceive us by not quoting what Fritz goes on to say and only quote lies that Oswald himself admitted were lies.
JohnM
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Fritz tells us that after Oswald was caught lying, Oswald admitted catching a bus and cab but you just want to deceive us by not quoting what Fritz goes on to say and only quote lies that Oswald himself admitted were lies.
JohnM
So you just take Fritz' word for it, huh? Do you have any supporting evidence for the Fritz claim regarding LHO lying?
The irony of course is *you* quoted the part I quoted in my first post. Now you claim that I did something wrong.
**********************************************
This one is short and sweet regarding the issue of Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) taking a cab to his rooming house following his departure from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building.
Note -- I should also state that the PURPOSE of this series is to show the CLAIMS of the WC are NOT supported by the actual evidence. This series is NOT about my opinions, beliefs, or anything else regarding my thoughts. I need to make this clear since several LNers are misleading folks as to my motive for this series!
********************************************
The Warren Commission (WC) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) left the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) and took a bus AND A CAB to get to his rooming house room to retrieve the pistol and jacket. But as John Mytton showed Captain Will Fritz testified to something else LHO said he did!
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
IF one believes this testimony, and LNers have to, it shows us LHO said he took the BUS NEAR TO WHERE HE WAS STAYING, and NEVER took a cab as the WC claimed! Thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
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So you just take Fritz' word for it, huh? Do you have any supporting evidence for the Fritz claim regarding LHO lying?
The irony of course is *you* quoted the part I quoted in my first post. Now you claim that I did something wrong.
Do you have any supporting evidence for the Fritz claim regarding LHO lying?
You claim to know the evidence but repeatedly your lack of knowledge is exposed.
Mr. STERN - Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that ground before," or make any such statement?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.
The irony of course is *you* quoted the part I quoted in my first post. Now you claim that I did something wrong.
How pathetic, you're just a little boy who has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
Let me ask you a question, based on Fritz's entire testimony if Fritz was asked how Oswald got home, how would Fritz answer that question, then try and apply that answer to your above cherry pick.
JohnM
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You claim to know the evidence but repeatedly your lack of knowledge is exposed.
Mr. STERN - Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that ground before," or make any such statement?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.
You just refuse to admit that you falsely claim that this is evidence when it is nothing but a *claim*. The alleged interrogations were not recorded and no stenographer was present, therefore, we have no way of knowing what LHO said or didn't say. He had the right to remain silent.
How pathetic, you're just a little boy who has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
You have me confused with yourself.
Let me ask you a question, based on Fritz's entire testimony if Fritz was asked how Oswald got home, how would Fritz answer that question, then try and apply that answer to your above cherry pick.
JohnM
I unlike you don't care what Fritz said. I care about the evidence and that shows that he didn't take the bus driven by McWatters and the cab driven by Whaley.
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You just refuse to admit that you falsely claim that this is evidence when it is nothing but a *claim*. The alleged interrogations were not recorded and no stenographer was present, therefore, we have no way of knowing what LHO said or didn't say. He had the right to remain silent.
You have me confused with yourself.
I unlike you don't care what Fritz said. I care about the evidence and that shows that he didn't take the bus driven by McWatters and the cab driven by Whaley.
You just refuse to admit that you falsely claim that this is evidence when it is nothing but a *claim*. The alleged interrogations were not recorded and no stenographer was present, therefore, we have no way of knowing what LHO said or didn't say. He had the right to remain silent.
Oswald's words during the hours of interrogation were recalled by not only the Dallas Police but have powerful corroboration from a variety of other eyewitnesses, but feel free to believe whatever you want. Oswald knew his rights during hours of interrogation but still squealed like a pig.
I unlike you don't care what Fritz said.
Well don't quote him then, see how easy that was.
I care about the evidence and that shows that he didn't take the bus driven by McWatters and the cab driven by Whaley.
So you only care about weak illogical evidence that supports your fairytale. Got it.
JohnM
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Mr. BOOKHOUT - .....that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.
Same song sung for decades. The established yarn that would become the official story.
There are too many threads knitting the same arguments. I could buy the bus/taxi scenario if only it would have just made any sense.
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Oswald's words during the hours of interrogation were recalled by not only the Dallas Police but have powerful corroboration from a variety of other eyewitnesses, but feel free to believe whatever you want. Oswald knew his rights during hours of interrogation but still squealed like a pig.
LHO had a right to remain silent. He knew his rights so unless you can produce a waiver form signed by LHO then we have to presume that he kept his mouth shut. The fact that the DPD chose not to record the alleged interrogations or even have a stenographer present undermines their claims.
LHO was never provided with a lawyer either so all of this is dubious. That leaves us with the evidence and that shows thar he didn't take McWatters' bus or get in Whaley's cab.
Well don't quote him then, see how easy that was.
Actually, *you* quoted him.
So you only care about weak illogical evidence that supports your fairytale. Got it.
JohnM
Again, you have me confused with yourself. Why do you support a theory that has NO SUPPORTING evidence?
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Nice, Brian. You're zero for two.
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Thank you for straightening me out on those two points, Albert, especially the Armstrong speculation. That was most informative.
Is it me, or can you imagine the smirk Mr. Whaley musta displayed on his face when he testified,:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley3.htm
?Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I take that back, sir. I saw the picture in the paper when they had, when Ruby killed him at the time between the two detectives. ?.
In the yeah, but whaddaboutme, category:
BTW, Mark....hows come you, Damore, and Roger Charles are literally fawned over by our Dr. J, considering it was I who wiped the lipstick off of Dr. J's "pig"?
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/04/opinion/oliver-north-overprotected.html
Mar 4, 1991 - Brendan Sullivan, the defense lawyer who became famous for asking the Iran-contra committee, "What am I, a potted plant?,"
https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/11/14/anatomy-cia-assassination-part-1/
Anatomy of a CIA Assassination: The Chase - November 14, 2017
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Is it me, or can you imagine the smirk Mr. Whaley musta displayed on his face when he testified,:
In the yeah, but whaddaboutme, category:
BTW, Mark....hows come you, Damore, and Roger Charles are literally fawned over by our Dr. J, considering it was I who wiped the lipstick off of Dr. J's "pig"?
https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/11/14/anatomy-cia-assassination-part-1/
Anatomy of a CIA Assassination: The Chase - November 14, 2017
Guess the good doctor didn't notice you, Tom. Must've thought you were a............ "potted plant" (3rd edition).
And this whole thing with Mitchell isn't over yet, Tom. Bytheway, that was my birthmother's married name........ Mitchell !!! Her maiden name was Sylvia Matuskey. It also makes me a cousin to Redskin quarterback Mark Rypien !!!! SMall world, huh? That DNA test is a hum-dinger.
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Is it me, or can you imagine the smirk Mr. Whaley musta displayed on his face when he testified,:
In the yeah, but whaddaboutme, category:
BTW, Mark....hows come you, Damore, and Roger Charles are literally fawned over by our Dr. J, considering it was I who wiped the lipstick off of Dr. J's "pig"?
https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/11/14/anatomy-cia-assassination-part-1/
Anatomy of a CIA Assassination: The Chase - November 14, 2017
Hey, Tom !
Since you mentioned Roger Charles, would he happen to be related to Ellen Charles, who was Marjorie Post's granddaughter? You do remember that Mary Draper Janney was on the Board of Directors at Hillwood Museum, which is where I met her back in the day, as they say. Do you also know of her relationship to Woods Hole and Bill Walton? Really cracked open a nut there, huh?
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Hey, Tom !
Since you mentioned Roger Charles, would he happen to be related to Ellen Charles, who was Marjorie Post's granddaughter? You do remember that Mary Draper Janney was on the Board of Directors at Hillwood Museum, which is where I met her back in the day, as they say. Do you also know of her relationship to Woods Hole and Bill Walton? Really cracked open a nut there, huh?
Mark, I hope you have found what you sought so long and it sounds like you have interesting roots.
Good luck processing what you & DNA science have opened doors to. You probably have forgotten more than I
am able to remember, and you seem a bottomless resource of valuable information.
Ellen is a horsewoman, ehhh? R. Gavin Charles (His mother Frances Louise Charles's 2009 metro DC area obit
includes him as Gavin, seems unlikely to be directly related to Ellen Charles.
This is link to info on R. Gavin's grandfather....
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/150484035
This was the "lipstick," in author Dr. Janney's own words, before I wiped it off the pig,:
The Autodaf of Lisa Pease and James DiEugenio Tomas de Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition return in a new era of suppression of freedom of thought and adherence to a rigid dogma - namely their own prejudices!
By Peter Janney July 6, 2012 (https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/07/peter-janney/the-autodaf-of-lisa-pease-and-jamesdieugenio-tomas-de-torquemada-and-the-spanish-inquisition-return-in-a-new-era-of-suppression-of-freedom-of-thought-and-adherence-to-a-rigid-dogma-namely-thei/)
....And so in Pease's fantasy world, nothing matters (or is able to be grasped) except her distorted perception of her own opinions that have no real basis in factual evidence.
But not yet content, Pease wants her supporters to believe that all of this "illustrates Janney's shortcomings as a researcher."...
....In addition, Ms. Pease can't even seem to fathom or consider how "Lt. William L. Mitchell," a man who told police he was jogging on the towpath when he passed Mary Meyer ? allegedly just before the murder took place ? told police that a "Negro male" matching Wiggins' description was following her in an effort to frame Ray Crump. "Mitchell" would then testify against Crump at the murder trial nine months later in July 1965 as part of the CIA's assassination operation. It doesn't seem to matter to Pease that "Mitchell" has never been able to be located since the trial, or that his known address during that time was documented as a "CIA safe house" by three separate former CIA employees. At the time of trial in July 1965, Mitchell told a reporter that he had since retired from the military and was now a mathematics instructor at Georgetown University ? yet no record of his employment there could ever be located, nor was there ever any bona-fide military service record located for "Mitchell," either in the Pentagon where he was listed in the directory at the time of the murder, or in the main military data base in St. Louis. This was thoroughly researched by the Peabody Award-winning journalist Roger Charles, as discussed in my book, a fact that Pease fails to mention in one of her many deliberate omissions, which also included Damore's consultation with L. Fletcher Prouty (as documented by Damore's attorney James H. Smith) to finally understand who "Mitchell" was, before Damore confronted him. Of course, Lisa Pease is entitled to whatever flawed point of view she wants to embrace, but she's not entitled to her own set of facts.....
Mary's Mosaic: The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, Mary ...
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1510708936
Peter Janney - 2016 - Preview - More editions (https://books.google.com/books?id=9TjlDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT368&dq=mr.+scully+focused+his+attack+on+the+conclusions&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGifHNz6DeAhVJUt8KHfsVA1MQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=mr.%20scully%20focused%20his%20attack%20on%20the%20conclusions&f=false)
The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, Mary Pinchot Meyer, and Their Vision for World Peace: Third Edition Peter ... 2 Mr. Scully focused his attack on the conclusions I had presented about the prosecution witness William L. Mitchell, ...
Janney struck me as disturbed to the degree of shrill and trumpian (aka, "It ain't me, babe."). Janney and Albert have found each other.
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You all make it sound like it would have taken Oswald way to long to buy a coke so that makes the time limited as to what LHO could have done before he is confronted by Marion Baker and Truly . It probably took about 7 seconds for LHO to buy his coke . Geez !
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He believes what he says, therefore he's not lying.
Fair point. If he's not lying, then he is delusional. Either way, he is wrong.
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Yeah...... The little cluehound solved the Hendrix accidental death, too, Tom. Dang, Sherlock !! So who shot Jack Kennedy, Albert?
Mark, I hope you've enjoyed today's "All Saints' Day" festivities. Any special plans for "All Trolls' Day," tomorrow?
I don't plan to feed them.
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Mark, I hope you've enjoyed today's "All Saints' Day" festivities. Any special plans for "All Trolls' Day," tomorrow?
I don't plan to feed them.
Well, I DID enjoy the Samhain, Tom, but did not participate in any "rituals". Haven't been to Confession yet, need to cleanse my spirit soon before receiving Holy Communion, eh?
But here, it seems every day is "All Trolls' Day"........ celebrating the Feast of St. Albert ? LOL+
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I'm LOL-ing listening to your interview of the daughter-in-law and grandaughter with all your leading questions. She says he had a Pepsi and you say that it must have been a Coke. She says that he was going back to the room where he worked, and that he went back upstairs before the motorcade arrived and you claim that he was "certainly" in the lunchroom when the shots were fired. She says he was on the stairs and you morph that into he was in the lunchroom. You falsely tell them that you've "done the footwork" and located Sarah all the way to the left on the front steps in NBC newsreel footage. You even argue with them about tall Sarah was and how much she weighed and what color her hair is! They say the enhanced image looks too young and too pretty to be Sarah and you tell them that the only thing that's important is that it's a woman. Then you misrepresent Frazier saying that Sarah was standing right next to him without telling them that Frazier placed her to his left, not to his right.
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So let's see how much you led her in your private messages.
So Wanda's memory of what she was told isn't reliable -- except when it is.
Did Wanda say that or was that just your realization (ie. your invention)?
In the interview that you actually posted, she quite clearly says that he was going back up to the room that he worked in.
Because your argument isn't even self-consistent and you know it. Ergo, all of this scrambling and special pleading.
Gosh, John, I wonder when St. Al-but is gonna have a 'Fireside Chat' with ol' Buell ??? LOL !!!!!!!!!!
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Shortly after earlier gesturing with his right hand while discussing SarahStanton, near and/or after the 0:35:30 mark of the video, BuellWesleyFrazier seems to indicate he saw LeeHarveyOswald on Houston St some minutes after the assassination/ shooting, and LHO then crossed the street walking away from the TSBD Bldg.
Admittedly however, for clarification as I recall, the after the assassination LHO sighting by BWF is information I only recently became aware of. So, either new or memory ex.
He was gesturing with his right hand throughout. I didn't see anything different when talking about Sarah Stanton than at other points in his story.
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... the after the assassination LHO sighting by BWF is information I only recently became aware of
Do we know when BWF first mentioned seeing Oswald on the street after he assassination? He certainly mentioned it in an interview with Gary Mack and Mack was clearly astonished but (I'm guessing) put it down to a senior's moment letting it pass with minimal questioning. Everyone seems to treat BWF with kid gloves as he does appear to be a gentle soul who couldn't hold up under a serious line of questioning. Fair enough IMO. That poor guy deserves peace wherever he can find it.
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Shortly after earlier gesturing with his right hand while discussing SarahStanton, near and/or after the 0:35:30 mark of the video, BuellWesleyFrazier seems to indicate he saw LeeHarveyOswald on Houston St some minutes after the assassination/ shooting, and LHO then crossed the street walking away from the TSBD Bldg.
Admittedly however, for clarification as I recall, the after the assassination LHO sighting by BWF is information I only recently became aware of. So, either new or memory ex.
He was gesturing with his right hand throughout. I didn't see anything different when talking about Sarah Stanton than at other points in his story.
So Sir, is it your assertion that BuellWesleyFrazierImage does not at any time make any gesture with his left hand during the filmed interview being referenced?
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So Sir, is it your assertion that BuellWesleyFrazierImage does not at any time make any gesture with his left hand during the filmed interview being referenced?
No. My comment was in response to the post 'Shortly after earlier gesturing with his right hand '. He made a lot of hand gestures throughout with right, left and both hands.
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Do we know when BWF first mentioned seeing Oswald on the street after he assassination? He certainly mentioned it in an interview with Gary Mack and Mack was clearly astonished but (I'm guessing) put it down to a senior's moment letting it pass with minimal questioning. Everyone seems to treat BWF with kid gloves as he does appear to be a gentle soul who couldn't hold up under a serious line of questioning. Fair enough IMO. That poor guy deserves peace wherever he can find it.
Is there an available link to the mentioned interview of BuellWesleyFrazier done by LawrenceAllen"GaryMack"Dunkel(1946-2015)?
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Is there an available link to the mentioned interview of BuellWesleyFrazier done by LawrenceAllen"GaryMack"Dunkel(1946-2015)?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-1/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-1 (https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-1/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-1)
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Shortly after earlier gesturing with his right hand while discussing SarahStanton, near and/or after the 0:35:30 mark of the video, BuellWesleyFrazier seems to indicate he saw LeeHarveyOswald on Houston St some minutes after the assassination/ shooting, and LHO then crossed the street walking away from the TSBD Bldg.
Admittedly however, for clarification as I recall, the after the assassination LHO sighting by BWF is information I only recently became aware of. So, either new or memory ex.
So Sir, is it your assertion that BuellWesleyFrazierImage does not at any time make any gesture with his left hand during the filmed interview being referenced?
No. My comment was in response to the post 'Shortly after earlier gesturing with his right hand '. He made a lot of hand gestures throughout with right, left and both hands.
So Sir, is it your contention that the reference I made, regarding timing of comments and accompanying hand gestures during the referenced filmed interview, should be considered to be a misstatement?
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So Sir, is it your contention that the reference I made, regarding timing of comments and accompanying hand gestures during the referenced filmed interview, should be considered to be a misstatement?
I wouldn't put it quite like that :)
I think what I said is clear.
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Do we know when BWF first mentioned seeing Oswald on the street after he assassination? He certainly mentioned it in an interview with Gary Mack and Mack was clearly astonished but (I'm guessing) put it down to a senior's moment letting it pass with minimal questioning. Everyone seems to treat BWF with kid gloves as he does appear to be a gentle soul who couldn't hold up under a serious line of questioning. Fair enough IMO. That poor guy deserves peace wherever he can find it.
Is there an available link to the mentioned interview of BuellWesleyFrazier done by LawrenceAllen"GaryMack"Dunkel(1946-2015)?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-1/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-1 (https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-1/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-1)
To me, the interviewer, "GaryMack", during the 6/21/'02 filmed two part interview, allows a sufficient follow-up by BuellWesley Frazier to his stated LeeHarveyOswald sighting shortly after the DealeyPlazaShooting on 11/22/'63.
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So Sir, is it your contention that the reference I made, regarding timing of comments and accompanying hand gestures during the referenced filmed interview, should be considered to be a misstatement?
I wouldn't put it quite like that :)
I think what I said is clear.
Walk: ::)
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Walk: ::)
Which means?
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It was too dangerous for Mack to delve into yet not so dangerous for him to leave that part of the interview intact so that others can see the clue and follow up with their own inquiries? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
Anything goes in CT CrankVille... so no, he doesn't.
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So why didn't Mack edit out the claim that Oswald was seen by Frazier after the event?
Why doesn't Frazier 'come clean' and spill the beans? Is he still concerned about his safety or is it because he has nothing new to offer except scrambled thoughts and memories of a event that happened 50+ years ago?
I get the impression from interviews over recent years that Frazier could, without much effort, be lead into 'confessing' contradictions to his original statements and inventing new information out of nothing.
Like I said I feel pity for the guy.
I agree that he seemed somewhat mixed up. I don't really put much faith in Buell's account: For instance, Mack asked him if he saw Oswald after the shooting, he responds no, then later describes seeing Oswald coming out the back.
Ah, the vagaries of memory...
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Craig died in May 1975 by his own hand. That's almost 12 years after the assassination yet he had to be murdered? What wacky BS aren't you prepared to swallow?
I think there is something wrong in Albert's head. That's why he keeps writing paragraph after paragraph after paragraph, mostly cluttered with ad hominem and baseless assumptions. I have submitted a sampling of his writings to a qualified psychologist, and am waiting for her conclusions. But I seem to see a similarity with his writings and that of the esteemed journalist Ralph Cinque and, the best of them all........ Barbara Hartwell (as in Barbara Hartwell vs. CIA)
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It's because you don't have the evidence, and you know it. There's enough misinformation on this forum without you adding to it. You lied about Frazier locating Stanton in the prayerman position, you lied about what Rosa and Wanda said, you lied about Frazier saying he saw Oswald head up Elm, and you lied about Lovelady listing people from "his left to his right".
In fact, the way you tell that Brian is lying is when he makes a claim about something somebody said without providing the exact quote.
(https://i.imgflip.com/1znchr.jpg)
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Pure unadulterated fabrication. What is the evidence that "out front" actually meant "in the domino room"?
The "Out Front With Shelley" statement was given by Harvey who saw Shelley not out front but in the Domino Room after Shelley split from Lovelady.
Where does the above nonsense come from? FBI agent James Bookhout wrote ( pg 619 WR) ..."Oswald stated that he took his coke down to the first floor .....He thereafter went OUTSIDE and stood around with Foreman Bill Shelly ( The name appears to have been altered) He thereafter went home."
Lee was curious about what had caused officer Baker to burst into the second floor lunchroom with a drawn revolver. He wouldn't have gone to the Domino room on the first floor, when the action was taking place OUTSIDE. He told the interrogators that he went OUTSIDE.
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Actually, I thought that the "out front" comment, attributed to LeeHarveyOswald, actually came from notes made by DPD Captain WillFritz, that in my conclusion, were lacking specifics as to who said what.
Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."
From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.
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Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."
From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.
But! Read the first interrogation report Bookhout put his name to (along with James Hosty). It says that Oswald "claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building".
Bookhout's second solo report was a cynical attempt to garble what Oswald had really said------------and to lend support to the invented 2nd floor lunchroom story!
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Actually, I thought that the "out front" comment, attributed to LeeHarveyOswald, actually came from notes made by DPD Captain WillFritz, that in my conclusion, were lacking specifics as to who said what.
Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."
From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.
Assuming Bookhout is FBI Agent James W Bookhout(1914-2009), and as you noted, "(Yes, but) it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:", so still a matter of, he said he said. However, said report does indicate the SecondFloorLunchRoom Encounter did occur, and at about 12:31:30pm, CST, as in my conclusion, it has been well established that the SFLRE had to occur at about 12:31:00 to 12:32:00pm. And, said report indicates that LeeHarveyOswald was in the lunchroom and had just purchased s Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine when the encounter occurred.
According to the Bookhout Report, "Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In any event, I have to conclude that his lunch event, wherever it was, took place at about 12:35pm, and thru 12:45pm, based on the report. Also reportedly, "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home". And, after standing around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to confusion in the building...".
Accordingly, as indicated by Mr Bookhout's report of the LHO interrogation, I have to conclude that if accurate, LHO did not depart the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building before about 12:50:00pm CST.
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Assuming Bookhout is FBI Agent James W Bookhout(1914-2009), and as you noted, "(Yes, but) it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:", so still a matter of, he said he said. However, said report does indicate the SecondFloorLunchRoom Encounter did occur, and at about 12:31:30pm, CST, as in my conclusion, it has been well established that the SFLRE had to occur at about 12:31:00 to 12:32:00pm. And, said report indicates that LeeHarveyOswald was in the lunchroom and had just purchased s Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine when the encounter occurred.
According to the Bookhout Report, "Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In any event, I have to conclude that his lunch event, wherever it was, took place at about 12:35pm, and thru 12:45pm, based on the report. Also reportedly, "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home". And, after standing around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to confusion in the building...".
Accordingly, as indicated by Mr Bookhout's report of the LHO interrogation, I have to conclude that if accurate, LHO did not depart the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building before about 12:50:00pm CST.
Larry, I disagree with you ..... And Bookhout... I believe Bookhout was confused about WHEN Lee said he ate his lunch....There is ample records to show that Lee said he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom ( Domino Room) and He saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman come in to the building through the back door at about 12:26 . He then went to the second floor lunchroom and obtained a Coca Cola from the coke machine in the Second floor lunchroom.
Lee was in the second floor lunchroom when Baker and Truly encountered him there....When they left he went outside and stood around gawking like 99% of the spectators and he talked to Bill Shelley his supervisor who told him there wouldn't be any work accomplished that afternoon. That's when Lee decided to go to the Theater.....
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Assuming Bookhout is FBI Agent James W Bookhout(1914-2009), and as you noted, "(Yes, but) it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:", so still a matter of, he said he said. However, said report does indicate the SecondFloorLunchRoom Encounter did occur, and at about 12:31:30pm, CST, as in my conclusion, it has been well established that the SFLRE had to occur at about 12:31:00 to 12:32:00pm. And, said report indicates that LeeHarveyOswald was in the lunchroom and had just purchased s Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine when the encounter occurred.
According to the Bookhout Report, "Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In any event, I have to conclude that his lunch event, wherever it was, took place at about 12:35pm, and thru 12:45pm, based on the report. Also reportedly, "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home". And, after standing around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to confusion in the building...".
Accordingly, as indicated by Mr Bookhout's report of the LHO interrogation, I have to conclude that if accurate, LHO did not depart the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building before about 12:50:00pm CST.
Larry, I disagree with you ..... And Bookhout... I believe Bookhout was confused about WHEN Lee said he ate his lunch....There is ample records to show that Lee said he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom ( Domino Room) and He saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman come in to the building through the back door at about 12:26 . He then went to the second floor lunchroom and obtained a Coca Cola from the coke machine in the Second floor lunchroom.
Lee was in the second floor lunchroom when Baker and Truly encountered him there....When they left he went outside and stood around gawking like 99% of the spectators and he talked to Bill Shelley his supervisor who told him there wouldn't be any work accomplished that afternoon. That's when Lee decided to go to the Theater.....
Walt, I am not sure what you disagree with me about, as the only thing I find substantially accurate in the report is the conclusion relative to the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter and it's timing, as my conclusion is based upon reliable evidentiary indicative information provided in testimony by two of the three participants of said encounter, RoyTruly,TSBD and MarrionBaker, DPD.
As noted early on, "so still, a matter of he said he said". And, I also thought that I qualified my comments with terms like "according to the report", "reportedly", "based on the report", and "if accurate". But, said comments were accompanied somewhat by estimates of timing required for reported statements indicating activities and/or event occurrences.
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Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."
From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
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Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Yes, that's what LBJ's Special Blue Ribbon Cover up committee wanted Shelley to say..... However....That's NOT what Lee told the interrogators. Lee said he talked to Shelley "Out Front"..... Which would seem to indicate they were outside in front of the TSBD, but not necessarily....."Out front could simply mean near the front face of the building......Since the usual place for the order filling employees was at the back of the building Lee might have been referring to the front of the building.... inside... near Truly's Office.....
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Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Bookhout's account doesn't say anything about Shelley seeing Oswald during this time. Read it again.
"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."
Actor Bill Paxton (as a child) stood around the outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth with JFK that morning and heard remarks that JFK made. It doesn't therefore follow that JFK would report seeing Bill Paxton.
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Bookhout's account doesn't say anything about Shelley seeing Oswald during this time. Read it again.
"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."
Actor Bill Paxton (as a child) stood around the outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth with JFK that morning and heard remarks that JFK made. It doesn't therefore follow that JFK would report seeing Bill Paxton.
So he stood around with Shelley. Agreed? And he overheard Shelley talking about maybe ceasing work? Good so far?
Given that Oswald just had to ask Shelley to confirm that work would stop for the day, a good investigator might consider the possibility that the (eventual) prime suspect wasn't about to risk being told to stay at the scene.
Sounds like a familiar MO regarding Oswald showing up, unannounced, at the Paine's the previous evening, rather than calling ahead and risk being turned down.
If you ask me.
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Bookhout's account doesn't say anything about Shelley seeing Oswald during this time. Read it again.
"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."
Actor Bill Paxton (as a child) stood around the outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth with JFK that morning and heard remarks that JFK made. It doesn't therefore follow that JFK would report seeing Bill Paxton.
"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly,
You're right.....It's possible that Lee could have stood around outside just as Bill Shelly was also standing around outside......and Shelly might not have noticed Lee because he was watching the activity in the rail yard.
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"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home."
This new Bookhout (solo) report leaves out the most important Oswald claim contained in the earlier Bookhout (joint) report----------viz., that Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building. A remarkable omission!
Of course, those of a studiedly see-no-evil-hear-no-evil sensibility will assure us there is nothing to see here... ::)
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"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home."
This new Bookhout (solo) report leaves out the most important Oswald claim contained in the earlier Bookhout (joint) report----------viz., that Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building. A remarkable omission!
Of course, those of a studiedly see-no-evil-hear-no-evil sensibility will assure us there is nothing to see here... ::)
Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.
What's more.... Junior Jarman And Harold Norman testified that they entered the TSBD through the back door near the Domino room at about 12:26 / !2:27.... And Lee Oswald said that he saw them "come in" . How could he have known that they entered the building near the 1st floor lunchroom if he was not right there watching?
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Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.
What's more.... Junior Jarman And Harold Norman testified that they entered the TSBD through the back door near the Domino room at about 12:26 / !2:27.... And Lee Oswald said that he saw them "come in" . How could he have known that they entered the building near the 1st floor lunchroom if he was not right there watching?
Yep Thumb1:
Now! Here's what Bookhout and Hosty had to say in their joint interrogation report:
Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the coca cola machine is located and obtained a bottle of coca cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.
Question 1! Why no mention here of a police officer confronting Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom?
Question 2! Why no mention in Bookhout's later, solo report of Oswald's all-important claim to have been on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?
These questions----------along with a wise policy of not ignoring the obvious import of the words 'for his lunch'----------will guide us to what really happened:
1. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
2. Oswald goes downstairs (with coke) to eat his lunch
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
5. Oswald never goes back up to the second-floor lunchroom
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Yep Thumb1:
Now! Here's what Bookhout and Hosty had to say in their joint interrogation report:
Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the coca cola machine is located and obtained a bottle of coca cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.
Question 1! Why no mention here of a police officer confronting Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom?
Question 2! Why no mention in Bookhout's later, solo report of Oswald's all-important claim to have been on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?
These questions----------along with a wise policy of not ignoring the obvious import of the words 'for his lunch'----------will guide us to what really happened:
1. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
2. Oswald goes downstairs (with coke) to eat his lunch
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
5. Oswald never goes back up to the second-floor lunchroom
1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
3. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
4. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
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But! Read the first interrogation report Bookhout put his name to (along with James Hosty). It says that Oswald "claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building".
Bookhout's second solo report was a cynical attempt to garble what Oswald had really said------------and to lend support to the invented 2nd floor lunchroom story!
Can you, AlanFord, literally prove your assertion about "Bookhout's second solo report"?... Or, is it as it appears, simply an opinionated conclusion?
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1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
3. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
4. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
Nearly right...
But! The Bookhout-Hosty joint report, and the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton, help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz:
1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
No return visit to the second-floor lunchroom! Baker and Truly lied about when and where they encountered Oswald!
The question now becomes: where exactly on the first floor was Oswald when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?
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Nearly right...
But! The Bookhout-Hosty joint report, and the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton, help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz:
1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
No return visit to the second-floor lunchroom! Baker and Truly lied about when and where they encountered Oswald!
The question now becomes: where exactly on the first floor was Oswald when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?
Lets not quibble.... The really important and essential points are....
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
Lee was most certainly NOT on the sixth floor at the time JFK was murdered....
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Lets not quibble.... The really important and essential points are....
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
Lee was most certainly NOT on the sixth floor at the time JFK was murdered....
Thumb1:
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Nearly right...
But! The Bookhout-Hosty joint report, and the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton, help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz:
1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
No return visit to the second-floor lunchroom! Baker and Truly lied about when and where they encountered Oswald!
The question now becomes: where exactly on the first floor was Oswald when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?
"...second floor sightings.................help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz..."
??? Walk: BS: ::)
So if not a fit, no need to quit, just label 'a liar'?
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So he stood around with Shelley. Agreed? And he overheard Shelley talking about maybe ceasing work? Good so far?
Given that Oswald just had to ask Shelley to confirm that work would stop for the day, a good investigator might consider the possibility that the eventual prime suspect wasn't about to risk being told to stay at the scene.
Sounds like a familiar MO regarding Oswald showing up, unannounced, at the Paine's the previous evening, rather than calling ahead and risk being turned down.
If you ask me.
Speculating on somebody's motives for doing something is not "investigating".
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Speculating on somebody's motives for doing something is not "investigating".
The word investigate has several applications and works in my case here, since I'm an inquisitive observer posting to a thread of a discussion forum. We are not in court here John.
Anyway, I have precedent on my side re Oswald failing to gain permission from those in charge, rather than acting of his own accord...
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The word investigate has several applications and works in my case here, since I'm an inquisitive observer posting to a thread of a discussion forum. We are not in court here John.
Anyway, I have precedent on my side re Oswald failing to gain permission from those in charge, rather than acting of his own accord...
Chapped man said....I'm an inquisitive observer Normally this statement would mean that the person doubted the information and was curious if it was the truth, thus, he is inquisitive .....But such is not the case with ol Chappie.... His mind is incapable of rationalizing and assimilating information... Chappie accepts whatever the man with the badge (credentials) tells him to believe. If Mr authority tells Chappie that the sun rises in the North then it becomes the gospel to Chappie.
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1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
3. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
4. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
Nearly right...
But! The Bookhout-Hosty joint report, and the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton, help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz:
1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
No return visit to the second-floor lunchroom! Baker and Truly lied about when and where they encountered Oswald!
The question now becomes: where exactly on the first floor was Oswald when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?
There is reliable provable evidence that DPD Officer ML Baker, accompanied by TSBD Bldg Superintendent RS Truly, entered the TSBD Bldg some seconds after the Limousine driven by SSA BillGreer, with SSA RoyKellerman in the front passenger seat, and carrying PresidentJohnKennedySr and wife Jackie, as well as GovernorJohnConnallyJr and wife Nellie, turned west onto Elm St and drove past the TSBD Bldg Elm St Main Entrance portal. And, there is reliable provable evidence that SarahStanton, then employed at the TSBD Bldg, was standing on the Elm St Entrance landing, and that CarolynArnold, also then employed at the TSBD Bldg, was standing on the Elm St Entrance stairs, as the Limousine drove past the bldg.
Therefor, "the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton", would have occurred no later than 12:28:30 pm, as indicated.. And, the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter would have occurred between 12:31:00pm and 12:32:00 pm, with OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly entering the TSBD Bldg at or near 12:30:45pm, as indicated, and said entrance was to the first floor. So, I have to conclude, based on reliable provable indicative evidentiary information, that any claim that LeeHarvey Oswald was still on the first floor at 12:30:00pm, and/or as the Limousine piloted by SSAs and carrying President and MrsKennedy as well as Governor and MrsConnally drove past the bldg, is at best, problematic.
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Therefor, "the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton", would have occurred no later than 12:28:30 pm, as indicated.. And, the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter would have occurred between 12:31:00pm and 12:32:00 pm, with OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly entering the TSBD Bldg at or near 12:30:45pm, as indicated, and said entrance was to the first floor. So, I have to conclude, based on reliable provable indicative evidentiary information, that any claim that LeeHarvey Oswald as still on the first floor at 12:30:00pm, and/or as the Limousine piloted by SSAs and carrying President and MrsKennedy as well as Governor and MrsConnally drove past the bldg, is at best, problematic.
You think it's a problem for a person to go from the first floor to the second floor in 1-2 minutes?
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There is reliable provable evidence that DPD Officer ML Baker, accompanied by TSBD Bldg Superintendent RS Truly, entered the TSBD Bldg some seconds after the Limousine driven by SSA BillGreer, with SSA RoyKellerman in the front passenger seat, and carrying PresidentJohnKennedySr and wife Jackie, as well as GovernorJohnConnallyJr and wife Nellie, turned west onto Elm St and drove past the TSBD Bldg Elm St Main Entrance portal. And, there is reliable provable evidence that SarahStanton, then employed at the TSBD Bldg, was standing on the Elm St Entrance landing, and that CarolynArnold, also then employed at the TSBD Bldg, was standing on the Elm St Entrance stairs, as the Limousine drove past the bldg.
Therefor, "the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton", would have occurred no later than 12:28:30 pm, as indicated.. And, the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter would have occurred between 12:31:00pm and 12:32:00 pm, with OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly entering the TSBD Bldg at or near 12:30:45pm, as indicated, and said entrance was to the first floor. So, I have to conclude, based on reliable provable indicative evidentiary information, that any claim that LeeHarvey Oswald was still on the first floor at 12:30:00pm, and/or as the Limousine piloted by SSAs and carrying President and MrsKennedy as well as Governor and MrsConnally drove past the bldg, is at best, problematic.
You think it's a problem for a person to go from the first floor to the second floor in 1-2 minutes?
I maintain and rely on my conclusion as stated. However, for clarification, if you feel a need to offer an objection, could you be a little more specific?
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I maintain and rely on my conclusion as stated. However, for clarification, if you feel a need to offer an objection, could you be a little more specific?
Yes, why do you think it's problematic at best for Oswald to have been on the first floor at 12:30 and on the second floor at 12:31:30?
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Yes, why do you think it's problematic at best for Oswald to have been on the first floor at 12:30 and on the second floor at 12:31:30?
I just do not believe LHO was still on the first floor at 12:30:00PM, if OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly approached the entrance stairs and entered the bldg's 1st floor entrance, likely at 12:30:45pm, but most likely before 12:31:00pm, and in time for the SFLRE with an already in the lunchroom LHO at, as indicated, no later than 12:32:00pm, and possibly before 12:31:30pm.
I did not say impossible, as I conclude it problematic, and, therefor my stated conclusion.
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I just do not believe LHO was still on the first floor at 12:30:00PM, if OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly approached the entrance stairs and entered the bldg's 1st floor entrance, likely at 12:30:45pm, but most likely before 12:31:00pm, and in time for the SFLRE with an already in the lunchroom LHO at, as indicated, no later than 12:32:00pm, and possibly before 12:31:30pm.
I did not say impossible, as I conclude it problematic, and, therefor my stated conclusion.
I still have absolutely NO idea what you're trying to communicate, Mr. Trotter. Ever try shortening your sentences?
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1. Oswald visits the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke for his lunch.
2. Then Oswald takes this coke down to the first floor to eat his lunch.
3. Then Oswald returns up to the second-floor lunchroom to.... buy a coke for his lunch.
Something wrong with #3 here!
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I just do not believe LHO was still on the first floor at 12:30:00PM, if OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly approached the entrance stairs and entered the bldg's 1st floor entrance, likely at 12:30:45pm, but most likely before 12:31:00pm, and in time for the SFLRE with an already in the lunchroom LHO at, as indicated, no later than 12:32:00pm, and possibly before 12:31:30pm.
I did not say impossible, as I conclude it problematic, and, therefor my stated conclusion.
Yes, you just didn't explain what makes it problematic.
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He really liked Coke.
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I just do not believe LHO was still on the first floor at 12:30:00PM, if OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly approached the entrance stairs and entered the bldg's 1st floor entrance, likely at 12:30:45pm, but most likely before 12:31:00pm, and in time for the SFLRE with an already in the lunchroom LHO at, as indicated, no later than 12:32:00pm, and possibly before 12:31:30pm.
I did not say impossible, as I conclude it problematic, and, therefor my stated conclusion.
Yes, you just didn't explain what makes it problematic.
Okay John, can you explain why I should not conclude as problematic, the assertion that LHO was still on the TSBD 1st floor at 12:30pm?
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Okay John, can you explain why I should not conclude as problematic, the assertion that LHO was still on the TSBD 1st floor at 12:30pm?
Because I don't see what the problem is.
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Okay John, can you explain why I should not conclude as problematic, the assertion that LHO was still on the TSBD 1st floor at 12:30pm?
Because I don't see what the problem is.
Okay John, that is your response? Understandable, However, can you explain why I should not conclude the timing to be problematic?
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Okay John, that is your response? Understandable, However, can you explain why I should not conclude the timing to be problematic?
I don't even understand what you find problematic.
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Okay John, can you explain why I should not conclude as problematic, the assertion that LHO was still on the TSBD 1st floor at 12:30pm?
I don't even understand what you find problematic.
Okay John, can you explain which part of my conclusion that you do not even understand that I find problematic, that I should not find problematic?
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1. Oswald visits the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke for his lunch.
2. Then Oswald takes this coke down to the first floor to eat his lunch.
3. Then Oswald returns up to the second-floor lunchroom to.... buy a coke for his lunch.
Something wrong with #3 here!
Didn't the prime suspect prefer Dr. Pepper? And wasn't Dr. Pepper available on the first floor?
Well, seems he came prepared for a dime beverage.
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Okay John, can you explain which part of my conclusion that you do not even understand that I find problematic, that I should not find problematic?
Never mind, Larry. You're just going in circles.
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Didn't the prime suspect prefer Dr. Pepper? And wasn't Dr. Pepper available on the first floor?
Yet another piece of Bugliosi's "overwhelming" evidence.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
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Yet another piece of Bugliosi's "overwhelming" evidence.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
He didn't prefer Dr. Pepper? Just asking.
And I've never read all of Bug53
Nor I have I read any of his books other than Helter Skelter.
Guess I'm just not as obsessed with him as you are..
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He didn't prefer Dr. Pepper? Just asking.
Who knows? The sum total of his evidence for this was that Jim Bishop, in his book The Day Kennedy Was Shot, said (without any reference or citation) that Oswald "invariably drank Dr. Pepper".
How this constitutes evidence of anything just shows you how desperate he is to call anything he can "evidence".
Guess I'm just not as obsessed with him as you are..
That's even worse. You haven't even read it, but you still cut-and-paste from it all the same. Then again, given the number of things you recall incorrectly (with or without "2 sleepless nights"), I doubt you've ever bothered to read the Warren Report either.
But you sure think you're brilliant and that your jokes are funny, so there's that.
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Who knows? The sum total of his evidence for this was that Jim Bishop, in his book The Day Kennedy Was Shot, said (without any reference or citation) that Oswald "invariably drank Dr. Pepper".
How this constitutes evidence of anything just shows you how desperate he is to call anything he can "evidence".
That's even worse. You haven't even read it, but you still cut-and-paste from it all the same. Then again, given the number of things you recall incorrectly (with or without "2 sleepless nights"), I doubt you've ever bothered to read the Warren Report either.
But you sure think you're brilliant and that your jokes are funny, so there's that.
Dirty Harvey: Tongue-in-cheek, John... kinda, sorta. Not really. Just too damn accurate, a real keeper.
If you ask me. ;)
Tell us why you fear cut & paste. Maybe because it's verbatim?
Oh, wait... you'd rather decide for yourself what the source really meant.
PS: Lets see you sleep after a death in the family. Or maybe you're a sociopath, no empathy?
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Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me---
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Q-"Who was with you"? A-"Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me---"
Right behind him -WHO? Ball cuts him off! The slimy weasel.
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(https://i.imgur.com/BGu4DTl.jpg)
You're welcome! Thumb1:
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Bill Shelley = 'Prayer Man' in Wiegman (but not 'Prayer Man' in Darnell!), raising food or drink to his mouth (he hadn't finished his lunch by the time he went out front):
(https://i.imgur.com/T0qIqlf.gif)
Here he is later that day in the same rolled-up sleeves:
(https://i.imgur.com/7SPFq1R.gif)
By the time Darnell films the entranceway, he has already left the front steps and ran into Ms Gloria Calvery out at the corner of the 'island'!
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Joe Molina is also in the Out w/Shelley photo on the front steps. Nothing I can find in our forum search related to Molina so....
Understand this--The cops were pressuring and strong-arming anyone that even remotely could present a problem to their desired findings.
It was done to Wesley Frazier and his family.
It was also done to Molina to instill fear in him and his family-----------
Mr. BALL. You wanted to be heard, is that right, before the Commission?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you have something particularly you wanted to tell us?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, on November 23d following the assassination, I was paid a visit by the local police department at 1:30 in the morning and they sort of wanted to tie me up with this case in some way or another and they thought that I was implicated.
Mr. BALL. What makes you think they thought you were implicated?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, they were looking for something. I don't know what it was they were looking for in the house.
Mr. BALL. They came to your house here in Dallas?
Mr. MOLINA. That's right, woke up my wife and children; scared my wife half to death.
Mr. BALL. Did they search the house?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did they have a search warrant?
Mr. MOLINA. I don't know whether they did or not. ------------
Continued testimony --- My wife was all shook up and she said "My God" she said "Don't you know what they been saying about you?" I said "No, I don't know what they are saying about me." She said "Don't you know you been on TV and the news media across the nation saying you are on the so-called list with the Dallas Police Department claiming that you associate with persons of"---see if I can quote it right--I was known to associate with persons of subversive background.
Mr. BALL. That was on TV?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. Who put that on TV?
Mr. MOLINA. It was a statement made by Chief Curry.
The cops accused Molina of being a communist and being involved in the assassination. Though they knew perfectly well that he wasn't.
If interested, the rest of the testimony is here--- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/molina.htm
Police like to raid homes in the middle of the night...it creates more fear.
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To say Julia Elizabeth Nelson Postal's parents did not get along well, is putting it mildly. (~~~)
Thank you for this, Mr Scully, it advances our knowledge of the "out with Bill Shelley in front" issue magnificently! Thumb1:
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Joe Molina is also in the Out w/Shelley photo on the front steps. Nothing I can find in our forum search related to Molina so....
Understand this--The cops were pressuring and strong-arming anyone that even remotely could present a problem to their desired findings.
It was done to Wesley Frazier and his family.
It was also done to Molina to instill fear in him and his family-----------The cops accused Molina of being a communist and being involved in the assassination. Though they knew perfectly well that he wasn't.
If interested, the rest of the testimony is here--- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/molina.htm
Police like to raid homes in the middle of the night...it creates more fear.
The cops accused Molina of being a communist and being involved in the assassination.
It wasn't the cops ( the DPD) who thought that Molina was a commie..... It was the insane J.Edgar Hoover.... And he plotted to make it appear that a group of communists which included Lee Oswald and Joe Molina had ambushed and murdered JFK. ( Recall the early reports about a band of communists led by Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald had murdered JFK.) Molina foiled their plot by being photographed outside watching the Parade at the time of the shooting. Molina forced them to drop back to plan "B" ..... Make it appear that Oswald was a commie but he didn't have any accomplices....He was just a "Lone Nut" who shot the President for no reason at all. When they reverted to plan "B" they were forced to plant a third shell.... The original plot called for the planting of only TWO shells that were supposed to be the two shots that Lee Oswald fired .... But when witnesses reported more than two shots fired and there were more than two bullet strikes they were forced to present a third shell.
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For all we know maybe Oswald saw both Molinas! :D
Everybody who worked at the TSBD had a mysterious double.
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Everybody who worked at the TSBD had a mysterious double.
The Warren Commission spoke to a Depository employee witness who they simply refer to as "Mr. Molina," failing to refer to his real first name, which was Bertie. He was standing in the front entrance of the Book Depository as the motorcade drove by.
However, there was a second Mr. Molina who worked on the second floor of the Book Depository. His name was Joe Molina. The Warren Commission avoided mentioning this Mr. Molina like the plague. He was flown to Washington and interrogated by the Commission. His testimony was so devastating to their preconceived conclusion of Oswald's guilt that they buried all references to him. He said, "I was threatened to keep my mouth shut, or else."
Anyone reading the testimony of "Mr. Molina" would naturally assume that there had been only one 'Mr. Molina'. In fact there were two: Mr. Bertie Molina and Mr. Joe Molina. Here, for the first time, is Joe Molina's story...
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Don’t even get me started on the second Eddie Piper!
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For all we know maybe Oswald saw both Molinas! :D
Oswald was merely the new Bill Lowery, Junie needed a new pair of shoes after all.
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The Warren Commission spoke to a Depository employee witness who they simply refer to as "Mr. Molina," failing to refer to his real first name, which was Bertie. He was standing in the front entrance of the Book Depository as the motorcade drove by.
However, there was a second Mr. Molina who worked on the second floor of the Book Depository. His name was Joe Molina. The Warren Commission avoided mentioning this Mr. Molina like the plague. He was flown to Washington and interrogated by the Commission. His testimony was so devastating to their preconceived conclusion of Oswald's guilt that they buried all references to him. He said, "I was threatened to keep my mouth shut, or else."
Anyone reading the testimony of "Mr. Molina" would naturally assume that there had been only one 'Mr. Molina'. In fact there were two: Mr. Bertie Molina and Mr. Joe Molina. Here, for the first time, is Joe Molina's story...
Where?.... is Joe Molina's story? I know that he was fired from his job at the TSBD shortly after the ambush murder.....Fired without cause. But who knows,... Joe Molina may have gotten the Job in the TSBD in the same way that lee Oswald got placed in the TSBD.... Hoover may have wanted them "commies" in the place where the ambush was supposed to happen. So after the assassination Molina was no longer needed in the TSBD.
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The official story has Oswald exiting the front entrance about 3 minutes after the shots. At a time Bill Shelley was no where near the front entrance. Yet dumb'ass Oswald once again knowingly uses employees who were not in a position to support his alibi. Shelley was at City Hall that afternoon until 5pm. Oswald was seen by Lovelady and Williams, the latter rode in the same car as Shelley to HQ. There are images of Oswald walking right passed Lovelady.
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The official story has Oswald exiting the front entrance about 3 minutes after the shots. At a time Bill Shelley was no where near the front entrance. Yet dumb'ass Oswald once again knowingly uses employees who were not in a position to support his alibi. Shelley was at City Hall that afternoon until 5pm. Oswald was seen by Lovelady and Williams, the latter rode in the same car as Shelley to HQ. There are images of Oswald walking right passed Lovelady.
Indeed so, Mr Crow!
But the original official story--------i.e. the story put out by DPD on 11/22/63----------was that Mr Oswald had been seen and 'stopped' by a police officer at the front entrance immediately after the shooting. Later that evening this was turned into the second-floor lunchroom story.
Now!
Mr Oswald places himself in the second-floor lunchroom before the P. parade----------and will be corroborated by Ms Carolyn Arnold (and, so it would seem, by Ms Sarah Stanton).
Mr Oswald correctly places Messrs Jarman & Norman reentering the building.
Mr Oswald correctly places Mr Shelley out front.
Mr Oswald's claims as to his whereabouts, in short, stack up far better than the WC's claims as to Mr Oswald's whereabouts.
It is in this context that we must consider Mr Oswald's key claim that he "went outside to watch P. parade"! Thumb1:
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Indeed so, Mr Crow!
But the original official story--------i.e. the story put out by DPD on 11/22/63----------was that Mr Oswald had been seen and 'stopped' by a police officer at the front entrance immediately after the shooting. Later that evening this was turned into the second-floor lunchroom story.
Now!
Mr Oswald places himself in the second-floor lunchroom before the P. parade----------and will be corroborated by Ms Carolyn Arnold (and, so it would seem, by Ms Sarah Stanton).
Mr Oswald correctly places Messrs Jarman & Norman reentering the building.
Mr Oswald correctly places Mr Shelley out front.
Mr Oswald's claims as to his whereabouts, in short, stack up far better than the WC's claims as to Mr Oswald's whereabouts.
It is in this context that we must consider Mr Oswald's key claim that he "went outside to watch P. parade"! Thumb1:
Interesting that the Shelley comments are almost identical to those of Buell Frazier. Was out front with Mr Shelley who later told him to go home. Oswald the clairvoyant?
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Interesting that the Shelley comments are almost identical to those of Buell Frazier. Was out front with Mr Shelley who later told him to go home. Oswald the clairvoyant?
It's abundantly clear that Mr Oswald was KGB-trained in psychic cognition. Mr Graves has this case locked down! Thumb1:
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Does its seem odd that Oswald would NOT have mentioned having met Mrs Reid in the 2nd floor office?
Or was this a possible statement left out also, from Will Fritz fuzzy reconstructed typed report from his fuzzier scribbled notes of his interview not recorded on film or tape, nor stenographer present, nor attorney verification of such "notes"
What about the meeting with Pierce Allman: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-reporters-chance-encounter-with-jfks-assassin/
Was that changed to "met a Secret Service man" possibly to avoid the time line problem here, which is that Allman had to have entered the TSBD entrance lobby 1st floor before DPD officer Barnett has locked the doors by 3 minutes post shots .
So for Oswald to have both met Allman in the front lobby AND exited front door of TSBD before 3 minutes post shots would necessitate Oswald have to be in the lobby not later than approx 2 min 45 sec post shots, AND also have on BOTH brown shirt AND his jacket.
The only way is in the realm of reasonable probability is if Mrs Reid met Oswald about 60 sec posts shots, and Oswald having already traversed about 3/4ths distance into the office and meeting Mrs Reid as she enters the 2nd floor office front door and both of them surprised somewhat by that meeting, which would be an explanation for Oswald saying very little and then continuing on forward since he is closer to the front door, than to the rear door'
Exiting at about 65 sec post shots, therefore, from 2nd floor office, gives Oswald time to return to 2nd floor lunchroom via hallway and thus he would have passed into the "vestibule" area approx 83 sec post shots if having traveled 90 ft plus distance at about 5 ft/sec = 16 seconds later.
83 sec post shots, Oswald opens 2nd floor lunchroom door and that opening and closing caused light intensity change streaming thru the other outer door 2'x2' window to the 2nd floor landing, which is what caught Bakers eye as Baker had just reached the 2nd floor landing and following Truly.
Oswald had just entered the lunchroom and put on his brown shirt, but not yet buttoned it,when Baker came in about 4 to 5 second later, thus it appeared "hanging loosely' to Baker.
Baker leaves Oswald then, about 10 seconds later, at about 2 minutes post shots, therefore, Oswald nows in brown shirt and possibly also could have put on his jacket left there too, has time to use back staircase and traverse 150 ft or so to the front lobby and able to meet Pierce Allman as early as 2 min 30 seconds thus has enough time to have also left front entrance door before Barnett locks it at 3 min post shots
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Does its seem odd that Oswald would NOT have mentioned having met Mrs Reid in the 2nd floor office?
No, because that encounter was invented! Thumb1:
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What’s the significance? Rosa didn’t say when this sighting occurred.
She said Ms Stanton asked Mr Oswald if he was going "out to lunch". This puts the encounter pre-assassination, lunch-time! Thumb1:
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She said Ms Stanton asked Mr Oswald if he was going "out to lunch". This puts the encounter pre-assassination, lunch-time! Thumb1:
Ok, but a lot of people saw him near “lunch time”.
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the relatives account of what Sarah Stanton may have said, is that Oswald had a coke in his hand (or "pepsi") at the time of meeting, so either Oswald had already gotten a Dr.Pepper from the 1st floor machine by the rear stairs or he had just gotten a coke from the 2nd floor lunchroom machine and exited the lunchroom BEFORE Sarah then saw Oswald.
In either case, that would be before Oswald is seen sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom by Carolyn Arnold at 12:15 depending which FBI statement or which later 1978 statement by Carolyn Arnold is the correct one.
So if Oswald already has coke or Dr.Pepper and he is on his way down to eat lunch in the Domino room, that would have to be in the range of about 12:10 to have seen Norman and Jarman at that time, still in the TSBD. They left sometime very shortly after 12:10 and not later than 12:15 to go around to the front of the TSBD.
So what did Oswald do then? Did he stay in the Domino room from 12:12 until about 12:14 and then went BACK up to the 2nd floor lunchroom, got himself ANOTHER coke, and then he decided to sit down there and continue eating the remainder of his lunch there for at least another few minutes such to be observed by Carolyn Arnold from 12:15?
If what Oswald is alleged to have stated in Will Fritz office is that he "went out to see the presidential parade" then it follows that Oswald must have left the 2nd floor lunchroom a few minutes after 12:15 to go down to the 1st floor lobby, and perhaps that is why there is also the Carolyn Arnold FBI statement of having seen Oswald on the ground floor at about 12:25.
But getting Oswald out the door and standing somewhere on the front entrance and then back into the lobby again and either meeting Baker there on 1st floor or on the 2nd floor lunchroom later is a very difficult problem to work out especially with no witness at all having seen Oswald after 12:25 until about 12:31:30
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If Oswald shot Kennedy, and there was only one Oswald, how could he be PrayerDude? Some of you are miscontrued, I'm afraid. You must re-think your assumptions. Just my opinion.
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So there exists the plausible sequence that Oswald went down to the Domino room and lingered there for some reason with INTENT of eventually going out to "see the presidential parade" at the last minute, but never actually did and thus perhaps it was Oswald exiting from Domino room and meeting Baker on the 1st floor as Baker and Truly ran diagonally across to the elevators about 65 sec post shots.
Nope, not plausible-----------Hosty's notes say 'Then went outside to watch P. parade', not 'Then intended to go outside to watch P. parade but was stopped on first floor by officer & Mr Truly'!
If an innocent Mr Oswald hadn't managed to go outside, why would he later make a self-incriminating false claim that he had in fact done so? All he need do is tell the alibi-establishing truth------my boss and a police officer saw me right after the shots on the first floor, so I can't have been upstairs.
There really is no need for contorted interpretations and convoluted scenarios here:
Mr Oswald did go outside, he was captured on the Wiegman film standing just behind Mr Lovelady (at his right-hand shoulder)----------------
(https://i.imgur.com/EYBxvuA.jpg)
---------------and he had an encounter with Officer Baker (and Mr Truly) at the entrance.
None of these facts are dependent on his being PrayerMan in Darnell, though they do lend considerable support to that identification!
So! If you wish to maintain that he was lying when he claimed to have been out front, you need to explain why there is a magic dark 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film:
(https://i.imgur.com/fi8Pm1i.jpg)
Thumb1:
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The official story has Oswald exiting the front entrance about 3 minutes after the shots. At a time Bill Shelley was no where near the front entrance. Yet dumb'ass Oswald once again knowingly uses employees who were not in a position to support his alibi. Shelley was at City Hall that afternoon until 5pm. Oswald was seen by Lovelady and Williams, the latter rode in the same car as Shelley to HQ. There are images of Oswald walking right passed Lovelady.
From Shelley's first day statement.
"I didn't see Lee until the Police brought him into the Police Homicide Bureau."
Would seem to confirm that Shelley saw arrive Oswald in custody about 2pm.
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From Shelley's first day statement.
"I didn't see Lee until the Police brought him into the Police Homicide Bureau."
Would seem to confirm that Shelley saw arrive Oswald in custody about 2pm.
In the footage showing Mr Oswald being brought past Mr Lovelady:
We see Mr Oswald have to wait at the door--------this is because Mr Shelley needs to be brought out of that small back office before Mr Oswald can be brought into it!
Thumb1:
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A view of that corner from the lobby....
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SHO9wpdnpDA/WRkmKAz5pVI/AAAAAAABLyM/os_Yt3txEGcD-j_HxcvC47olVjbx4wYIACLcB/s530/TSBD-06.png)
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A view of that corner from the lobby....
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SHO9wpdnpDA/WRkmKAz5pVI/AAAAAAABLyM/os_Yt3txEGcD-j_HxcvC47olVjbx4wYIACLcB/s530/TSBD-06.png)
That radiator is visible in Darnell! Thumb1:
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Nope, not plausible-----------Hosty's notes say 'Then went outside to watch P. parade', not 'Then intended to go outside to watch P. parade but was stopped on first floor by officer & Mr Truly'!
If an innocent Mr Oswald hadn't managed to go outside, why would he later make a self-incriminating false claim that he had in fact done so? All he need do is tell the alibi-establishing truth------my boss and a police officer saw me right after the shots on the first floor, so I can't have been upstairs.
There really is no need for contorted interpretations and convoluted scenarios here:
Mr Oswald did go outside, he was captured on the Wiegman film standing just behind Mr Lovelady (at his right-hand shoulder)----------------
(https://i.imgur.com/EYBxvuA.jpg)
---------------and he had an encounter with Officer Baker (and Mr Truly) at the entrance.
None of these facts are dependent on his being PrayerMan in Darnell, though they do lend considerable support to that identification!
So! If you wish to maintain that he was lying when he claimed to have been out front, you need to explain why there is a magic dark 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film:
(https://i.imgur.com/fi8Pm1i.jpg)
Thumb1:
Alan, how do you know that Oswald DID NOT say that he met Baker on the 1st floor? Do you really think Hosty or Will Fritz would have let that statement remain
"unedited"?
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Alan, how do you know that Oswald DID NOT say that he met Baker on the 1st floor?
Huh? I've been arguing precisely that Mr Oswald did say he met him on the 1st floor------in the 'vestibule'! Thumb1:
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Huh? I've been arguing precisely that Mr Oswald did say he met him on the 1st floor------in the 'vestibule'! Thumb1:
Sequence of events!
1. Mr Oswald breaks for lunch
2. Mr Oswald comes downstairs
3. Mr Oswald buys coke in second floor lunchroom
4. Mr Oswald comes back down to first floor to eat lunch
5. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch P. parade (and shows up in Wiegman film standing just behind Mr Lovelady)
6. Mr Oswald has (benign) encounter with Officer Baker & Mr Truly in the vestibule (front lobby)
Thumb1:
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Sequence of events!
1. Mr Oswald breaks for lunch
2. Mr Oswald comes downstairs
3. Mr Oswald buys coke in second floor lunchroom
4. Mr Oswald comes back down to first floor to eat lunch
5. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch P. parade (and shows up in Wiegman film standing just behind Mr Lovelady)
6. Mr Oswald has (benign) encounter with Officer Baker & Mr Truly in the vestibule (front lobby)
Thumb1:
Your sequence does not account for some 20 minutes from 12:00 Eddie Piper sighting of Oswald on 1st floor, to 12:15 sighting by Carolyn Arnold in 2nd floor lunchroom and another 12:25 sighting by Arnold IN THE LOBBY in an FBI report with her signature on it. Since 1978, however, Arnold has denied the 12:25 report as false.
Why would the FBI make up a false 12:25 report and go so far as to forge Arnolds signature on it ? That only hurts their speculative Oswald on 6th floor theory, because there is NO way Oswald could be on 1st floor at 12:25 if he is supposed to be placing a box on ledge of 6th floor window just after Bonnie Ray Willams left the floor about 12:24
So was Oswald IN the Domino room from 12:01 to 12:14? If so, Norman and Jarman should have seen Oswald but apparently they did not or were unwilling to admit so.
Carolyn Arnold says she saw Oswald SITTING in the lunchroom which shows Oswald is NOT immediately on his way out to see the P. Parade. He DID take a delay from having spoken to Eddie Piper at 12:00.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZvgVRGFNUdKRW/giphy.gif)