JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Robin Unger on September 29, 2018, 10:04:19 PM
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This is from the Tina Towner's film taken on 11/22/63
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oJAH7w2nK6c/W64xZN5PTYI/AAAAAAAACaE/VGiAC_fLrDoCNKqFjvEYTDe4pRnSSrHdgCLcBGAs/s1600/towmer.gif)
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Hi Robin:
Might the running man with what appears to be a camera bag be Abraham Zapruder? Immediately prior to him being seen in Tina Towner's film, a woman in light-colored clothing moves quickly across the front of the arcade, from left to right. Might she have been Marilyn Sitzman, who was wearing such light-colored clothes? I tried to retrace Zapruder's movements away from the area some years ago, and at that time I noticed the two figures referenced above, but was never able to confirm or refute my hypothesis. The time frame of this Towner clip (a few minutes after the shooting) is not inconsistent with their movements after the shooting, and their direction of travel would also be consistent with their return to the Dal-Tex Building. I know it could potentially be true of any number of people, but ...
Any thought, anyone?
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Hard to say Chris, from memory the Elm st traffic was flowing by approx 12:40PM
I also see what may be the three Darnell women ( blue scarf lady and two friends seen near the Stemmons sign in Zaprider )
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sqkOATiPTRk/W7DNxeK1b9I/AAAAAAAACbU/iwsvC5zr4AEO1Baql7VTHg78v8gq73ryACLcBGAs/s1600/towner2.gif)
Murray shows traffic at 12:40PM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Murrayscan.jpg)
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Hi Chris,
It looks to me like a reporter running, as you can see an over the shoulder Camera bag swinging while he is running down the slope.
He appears to come from the same location where Sitzman was interviewed and filmed on the Knoll, see Video below.
His right and left hands are raised, and he appears to me to be writing on a notepad or lighting a cigarette, as he is running down the slope.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)
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Robin is correct.
That photographer is Jimmy Darnell who jumped from Camera Car 3 just after the intersection of Houston and Elm. He progressed down Elm street, eventually crossing the road and visiting the parking lot area. He can be seen there in the John Martin film, and some of his film from there appears in various documentaries, as well as Oliver Stone's JFK. I think what we are seeing in Tina's film is Darnell after he left the parking lot. We see him as he races across the pergolla's south steps toward the three women also walking east in front of the pergolla. In a few seconds after Tina's clip he will be in front of those women and begin filming their faces as they continue their walk. These women are Stella Jacob, Sharon Simmons and Jeanie Holt. Stella is the darker complected woman on his camera left. I'm not sure which women are Sharon and Jeanie. If the readers go to JFK.org (the Sixth Floor Museum) they can find this film and zoom in enough to see these women clearly. They are the women we see in Zapruder's film just east of the Stemmons's Freeway sign.
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Yes, Jimmy Darnell most likely, he spent some time filming the Carpark area
he may have just walked around from behind the pergola and started running down the grass.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/9394.jpg)
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Yes Duncan it's looking more like Jimmy Darnell.
I have both of these frames listed as Darnell in my galleries.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/9407.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/DARNELL80b.jpg)
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Thanks to all for the prompt and civil replies - oh, that all exchanges on the various Forums (or Fora?) were equally polite!
Yes, it seems as if the man in question is, in fact, Jimmy Darnell.
Thanks again.
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Hi Chris,
It looks to me like a reporter running, as you can see an over the shoulder Camera bag swinging while he is running down the slope.
He appears to come from the same location where Sitzman was interviewed and filmed on the Knoll, see Video below.
His right and left hands are raised, and he appears to me to be writing on a notepad or lighting a cigarette, as he is running down the slope.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)
If this is Darnell and he is "writing on a notepad", reading these alleged notes would be extremely important. Is anyone aware of Darnell having taken contemporaneous notes on 11/22/63?
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There are a couple of photos showing Zapruder leaving the area. He and Stitzman are both at the top of the stairs heading East.
Edit: Altgens 8 is the first photo, not sure about the second one.
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There are a couple of photos showing Zapruder leaving the area. He and Stitzman are both at the top of the stairs heading East.
Edit: Altgens 8 is the first photo, not sure about the second one.
They can be seen in Altgens 8 and in a few of the Bell frames
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They can be seen in Altgens 8 and in a few of the Bell frames
Re: The Patsy Paschall film.
Here they are, just having come down from, and moving away from the Pedestal.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/zappat.gif)
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(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bell~1.jpg)
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Re: The Patsy Paschall film.
Here they are, just having come down from, and moving away from the Pedestal.
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/zappat.gif)
The Zapruder we see on the Bell Film is Meandering around the area close to the Zapruder Perch. He appears to be doing likewise in Altgens 8. This Contrasts with the High Steppin' gent we see on the Paschall Film above. The conflicting movement of these 2 individuals brings into question the generally accepted time stamping that has been applied to them. To think that the 58 year old Zapruder with his admitted Vertigo condition could leap down from The Perch and then sprint quickly across the Knoll in the fashion we see above defies logic. When considering the time stamping issue of these images, we also need to consider that Sitzman told Tink Thompson when interviewed for his 1966 "Six Seconds In Dallas", that she dismounted The Perch and then Immediately went down the Knoll and spoke with 2 gents she thought were G Men. Shen then said she went back Up the knoll and spoke with a man who Did ID himself as being a G Man. Sitzman telling Thompson less than 3 years after the assassination that she spoke with a G Man After going back UP the knoll needs to be considered when viewing all images of a man in the Zapruder Perch area wearing a suit and hat.
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The Zapruder we see on the Bell Film is Meandering around the area close to the Zapruder Perch. He appears to be doing likewise in Altgens 8. This Contrasts with the High Steppin' gent we see on the Paschall Film above. The conflicting movement of these 2 individuals brings into question the generally accepted time stamping that has been applied to them. To think that the 58 year old Zapruder with his admitted Vertigo condition could leap down from The Perch and then sprint quickly across the Knoll in the fashion we see above defies logic. When considering the time stamping issue of these images, we also need to consider that Sitzman told Tink Thompson when interviewed for his 1966 "Six Seconds In Dallas", that she dismounted The Perch and then Immediately went down the Knoll and spoke with 2 gents she thought were G Men. Shen then said she went back Up the knoll and spoke with a man who Did ID himself as being a G Man. Sitzman telling Thompson less than 3 years after the assassination that she spoke with a G Man After going back UP the knoll needs to be considered when viewing all images of a man in the Zapruder Perch area wearing a suit and hat.
If anything defies logic, being in shock does. And i'll tell you right now. I am 63 years old, and that doesn't stop me from running or being very quick in my actions. Stop typecasting Zapruder as an old man. Being in shock after seeing a persons head shot off in front of them would cause anyone to react quickly!
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If anything defies logic, being in shock does. And i'll tell you right now. I am 63 years old, and that doesn't stop me from running or being very quick in my actions. Stop typecasting Zapruder as an old man. Being in shock after seeing a persons head shot off in front of them would cause anyone to react quickly!
Zapruder does Not "react quickly" as seen on the Bell Film. He is meandering around the Perch area on the Bell Film. This contrasts with the Fast Motion of the individual we are seeing on the Paschall Film. These Contrasting physical actions, both in the Perch area, DQ this as being the same person. The assigned time lines of these films, coupled with Sitzman telling Tink Thompson she spoke with a G Man UP on the knoll, come into play here.
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The Zapruder we see on the Bell Film is Meandering around the area close to the Zapruder Perch. He appears to be doing likewise in Altgens 8. This Contrasts with the High Steppin' gent we see on the Paschall Film above.
Of course the Photographs and Films that you mention contrast with the Paschall clip which I posted above.
They show Zapruder's movements at completely different precise locations, and at completely different precise moments in time, all recorded within a very short precise time frame.
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Of course the Photographs and Films that you mention contrast with the Paschall clip which I posted above.
They show Zapruder's movements at completely different precise locations, and at completely different precise moments in time, all recorded within a very short precise time frame.
Are you contending that: (1) Zapruder suffering from Vertigo jumped down off the pedestal unassisted and then Sprinted eastward as we see on the Paschall Film, and (2) then Suddenly threw it into low gear and began meandering around the pedestal area as we see on the Bell Film? If so, you are getting warm. Simply expand the running time Between these 2 films and add 1 to your current cast of characters. The Sitzman version of this same time frame as told to Tink Thompson less than 3 years after the assassination provides a rational explanation for the current Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde performance being attributed to Zapruder.
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Are you contending that: (1) Zapruder suffering from Vertigo jumped down off the pedestal unassisted and then Sprinted eastward as we see on the Paschall Film, and (2) then Suddenly threw it into low gear and began meandering around the pedestal area as we see on the Bell Film? If so, you are getting warm. Simply expand the running time Between these 2 films and add 1 to your current cast of characters. The Sitzman version of this same time frame as told to Tink Thompson less than 3 years after the assassination provides a rational explanation for the current Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde performance being attributed to Zapruder.
I'm contending that what you see is what you get, ie, the Historical visually recorded facts showing verifiable time differences between different images captured at different moments in time, which logically accounts for the obvious difference in the movements of Zapruder. It's a no brainer!
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There is Nothing "logical" as to the movements that have been attributed to a Vertigo suffering, overweight, 58 year old man. Sitzman's narrative checks all the boxes and was her 1st in-depth/detailed interview. The interview was also conducted by a very respected individual. The interview Tink Thompson did with Sitzman was Far more detailed than Anything that was ever done with Zapruder. This would include Zapruder's testimonies.
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There is Nothing "logical" as to the movements that have been attributed to a Vertigo suffering, overweight, 58 year old man. Sitzman's narrative checks all the boxes and was her 1st in-depth/detailed interview. The interview was also conducted by a very respected individual. The interview Tink Thompson did with Sitzman was Far more detailed than Anything that was ever done with Zapruder. This would include Zapruder's testimonies.
The movements of Zapruder and Sitzman in the recorded visual records, are the only true records of the movements of Zapruder and Sitzman in those specific recorded visual records.
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The movements of Zapruder and Sitzman in the recorded visual records, are the only true records of the movements of Zapruder and Sitzman in those specific recorded visual records.
The identities of the people we are discussing in the Bell & Paschall Films have Not been Proven/Verified. Nobody currently alive can with certainty ID the Fuzzy, nondescript images we are discussing on the Bell & Paschall Films. To date, any individual at the top of the Knoll wearing a dark suit and hat has been cavalierly ID'd as Zapruder. This ridiculous rubber stamp ID "process" has also been attached to shadowy image(s) inside the shelter behind Zapruder. These films were around when Both Zapruder and Sitzman were alive. It would have been nice if the FBI/SS/JFK Research Community had sat down with either/both Zapruder/Sitzman showed them the Bell and/or Pashall Films and said, "Is This YOU?". "Do YOU remember being in the physical position we see on this Film?". What would be the problem with sitting down with Wiegman and showing him the Bell Film segment where he is running West across the top of the Knoll and asking him, "Did you see Zapruder and Sitzman directly in front of you?". Whether intentional or due to blatant Incompetence, the investigation into the assassination of JFK continues to come up wanting. This is due to many of its accepted "facts" being nothing more than Urban Legends which have been Endlessly repeated to the point of eventually being merely accepted as fact. No JFK assassination eyewitness has Ever Corroborated that we are seeing Zapruder on the Bell/Paschall Films. No assassination eyewitness has Ever Corroborated that Emmit Hudson was standing on The Steps. No assassination eyewitness has Ever Corroborated that we are seeing Mr & Mrs Hester on the ground in the Wiegman Film. I could go on. It is this same type of cavalierly accepting/rubber stamping the ID of assassination eyewitnesses that we ended up with the Mumford/McKinnon Mis ID which stood for 30+ years. How many True eyewitnesses to the JFK assassination have been missed or completely lost as a result of the half arsed methods of investigation which have been and continue to be used and accepted in this case?
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Nobody currently alive can with certainty ID the Fuzzy, nondescript images we are discussing on the Bell & Paschall Films.
I can :)
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As can I, Duncan, and many others too, to the extent possible at this time. Rather than constantly complain about what other researchers didn't do, why doesn't Royall tell us what he has done?
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There is Nothing "logical" as to the movements that have been attributed to a Vertigo suffering, overweight, 58 year old man. Sitzman's narrative checks all the boxes and was her 1st in-depth/detailed interview. The interview was also conducted by a very respected individual. The interview Tink Thompson did with Sitzman was Far more detailed than Anything that was ever done with Zapruder. This would include Zapruder's testimonies.
Storing...give it a rest. The people in the Bell film, and the Paschall film are easy to identify. All it takes is common sense--which you lack--since the actions of the people, Zapruder and Sitzman, are well documented by film and photographs, and people with common sense and good logic--which is something else you lack--have been able to document the actions of both Z and S. And by the way...where do come off calling Abraham Zapruder "overweight"? He isn't overweight to the point of obesity, so stop making it sound that way in your ridiculous argument about him leaving the concrete block!
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Robin is correct.
That photographer is Jimmy Darnell who jumped from Camera Car 3 just after the intersection of Houston and Elm. He progressed down Elm street, eventually crossing the road and visiting the parking lot area. He can be seen there in the John Martin film, and some of his film from there appears in various documentaries, as well as Oliver Stone's JFK. I think what we are seeing in Tina's film is Darnell after he left the parking lot. We see him as he races across the pergolla's south steps toward the three women also walking east in front of the pergolla. In a few seconds after Tina's clip he will be in front of those women and begin filming their faces as they continue their walk. These women are Stella Jacob, Sharon Simmons and Jeanie Holt. Stella is the darker complected woman on his camera left. I'm not sure which women are Sharon and Jeanie. If the readers go to JFK.org (the Sixth Floor Museum) they can find this film and zoom in enough to see these women clearly. They are the women we see in Zapruder's film just east of the Stemmons's Freeway sign.
I'm bumping this excellent 9/30/18 post by James Hackerott.
Tommy :)
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That is my Father, Jimmy Darnell. He may have had a cigarette, but I'm almost 100% certain that he didn't have notes. He kept everything, right down to the video logs from that week, and we've never seen or heard about any notes.
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That is my Father, Jimmy Darnell. He may have had a cigarette, but I'm almost 100% certain that he didn't have notes. He kept everything, right down to the video logs from that week, and we've never seen or heard about any notes.
Hi Nellie, were you old enough to remember this when it happened?
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Nope, way before I was born. However, it was an event that I heard a lot about growing up So much so, that I became somewhat desensitized to the significance of my Dads role in the aftermath as it pertains to capturing parts of the event and the subsequent reporting of it. My Dad's best friend was one of the other reporters/cameramen on the scene, so I've been surrounded by JFK stories my entire life. I honestly did not know how many people there were out there that are still so interested in his film until I started running across things online after he passed away. He was super humble, gave very few interviews over the years, and only participated in one or two panels. He didn't love the attention. But he was a journalist that worked with the highest level of integrity and left a great legacy.
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Nope, way before I was born. However, it was an event that I heard a lot about growing up So much so, that I became somewhat desensitized to the significance of my Dads role in the aftermath as it pertains to capturing parts of the event and the subsequent reporting of it. My Dad's best friend was one of the other reporters/cameramen on the scene, so I've been surrounded by JFK stories my entire life. I honestly did not know how many people there were out there that are still so interested in his film until I started running across things online after he passed away. He was super humble, gave very few interviews over the years, and only participated in one or two panels. He didn't love the attention. But he was a journalist that worked with the highest level of integrity and left a great legacy.
Thanks for the reply. Yes, there are a lot of us very interested in all aspects of the event. Please keep checking back here if you have time. I am sure some of us will have some questions for you. And I would also like to suggest that you contact Steven Fagin with the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. Here is a link to their oral history collection (that he is in charge of): https://www.jfk.org/the-collections/oral-history/oral-history-names/?alpha=A (https://www.jfk.org/the-collections/oral-history/oral-history-names/?alpha=A). I am sure that they would be very interested in recording your recollections for their collection. I sure hope that you can and do. I didn't see anything from your father there, so I believe it is very important that you do that in his stead. They can do it over the phone if you aren't in the area.
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That is my Father, Jimmy Darnell. He may have had a cigarette, but I'm almost 100% certain that he didn't have notes. He kept everything, right down to the video logs from that week, and we've never seen or heard about any notes.
Nellie,
Are you saying that that's your father, running from left to right with something white in his right jacket pocket in the Tina Towner film?
Thanks,
-- Tom
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Thanks for the suggestion, Charles! We are actually planning on going to the museum this weekend. My Mom worked for the Dallas PD at the time and was present for all the chaos of the aftermath, so she may be able to contribute to the Oral History Collection as well.
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I'm almost positive it is him. I wish the pic was a little sharper, but my family thinks it's him and it would seem to match up with the path he took that day.
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I'm almost positive it is him. I wish the pic was a little sharper, but my family thinks it's him and it would seem to match up with the path he took that day.
Nellie,
Thank you.
I think it's him, too.
-- Tom
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Thanks for the suggestion, Charles! We are actually planning on going to the museum this weekend. My Mom worked for the Dallas PD at the time and was present for all the chaos of the aftermath, so she may be able to contribute to the Oral History Collection as well.
Great! You might want to contact Stephen Fagin before you go so he can be ready to interview y’all. 214-747-6660, stephenf@jfk.org. Looking forward to hearing y’all’s stories!
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Nope, way before I was born. However, it was an event that I heard a lot about growing up So much so, that I became somewhat desensitized to the significance of my Dads role in the aftermath as it pertains to capturing parts of the event and the subsequent reporting of it. My Dad's best friend was one of the other reporters/cameramen on the scene, so I've been surrounded by JFK stories my entire life. I honestly did not know how many people there were out there that are still so interested in his film until I started running across things online after he passed away. He was super humble, gave very few interviews over the years, and only participated in one or two panels. He didn't love the attention. But he was a journalist that worked with the highest level of integrity and left a great legacy.
Nellie, thank you for joining the forum. You wrote your dad's best friend was a reporter/cameraman also at the scene. If you feel comfortable could you, or would you, let us know who that friend was? Just curious. There are at least two films with your dad prominent at center frame - Don Cook's and John Martin's.
Thanks,
James
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(https://i.imgur.com/1yJQi00.jpg)
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Nellie, thank you for joining the forum. You wrote your dad's best friend was a reporter/cameraman also at the scene. If you feel comfortable could you, or would you, let us know who that friend was? Just curious. There are at least two films with your dad prominent at center frame - Don Cook's and John Martin's.
Thanks,
James
I was referring to Bob Welch. He was at the Trade Mart and then followed the motorcade to Parkland.
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If you do a 6FM Oral History please bring any notes your dad had regarding the assassination. Do you have any copy of the films he took on 11/22/63?