JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Rob Caprio on September 24, 2018, 05:23:51 PM
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Thanks to Tom Scully I have updated this question.
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This incident occurred on October 6, 1963, and she contacted the FBI regarding it since she recovered a shell. This seems very important, but NOT to the FBI or WC I guess. All we get is one TINY paragraph denoted CE 2448.
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On December 6, 1963, Mrs. Lovell T. Penn, Belt Line Road, Cedar Hill, Texas, advised that she had located one spent shell which had been fired in her pasture on October 6, 1963, by the man she thought MIGHT HAVE BEEN Oswald. Mrs. Penn made this shell available.
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0309b.htm
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The FBI would receive the shell along with other ballistic evidence on December 4, 1963, via Special Agent David Barry. We learn about this from CE 3049 on page 2 of the original report (page 601 of Volume XXVI). Here is that report.
CE 3049:
https://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0319a.htm
The FBI would give more information about this shell in a memorandum that contained no name or signature. It would say the following about the shell found in Penn's pasture.
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The cartridge case, Q231, is a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge case. ?As a result of this examination, it was determined that Q231 could not have been fired from Oswald's rifle. This is based on differences in firing pin and breach face marks.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62272&relPageId=71&search=pc-78441
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First of all, there is no evidence that shows that CE 139 was ever linked to LHO or the assassination so this comment is erroneous. Secondly, if it wasn't LHO firing the shot in Penn's pasture then who was it?
This would seem important to me, so why did the WC make NO issue of it? Could it be it was NOT LHO? That would seem to be the likely version given the scant attention the WC gave it.
Who was out shooting in Mrs. Penn?s pasture in early October?
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The total lack of interest in this by the WC pretty much confirms that this was not LHO. Who was it? Most likely another lookalike trying to setup LHO.
This points to a conspiracy.
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So not one LNer can help us out? Who was this man?
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Irrelevant question, because....:
(Scroll down one page) On lower left.:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3049.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellFBILab2.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62272&relPageId=71&search=pc-78441
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellFBILab.jpg)
......Next !
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This incident occurred on October 6, 1963, and she contacted the FBI regarding it since she recovered a shell. This seems very important, but NOT to the FBI or WC I guess. All we get is one TINY paragraph denoted CE-2448.
Quote on
On December 6, 1963, Mrs. Lovell T. Penn, Belt Line Road, Cedar Hill, Texas, advised that she had located one spent shell which had been fired in her pasture on October 6, 1963, by the man she thought MIGHT HAVE BEEN Oswald. Mrs. Penn made this shell available.
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0309b.htm
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Too bad the FBI and WC did NOT make ?available? what they found upon examining this shell. Was it a 6.5mm type or some other type? Who knows as this is all we got from them on this issue. This would seem important to me as it would show LHO was out practicing with his rifle for the big event, so why did the WC make NO issue of it? Could it be it was NOT a 6.5mm and the man was NOT LHO? That would seem to be the likely version given the scant attention the WC gave it.
Who was out shooting in Mrs. Penn?s pasture in early October?
All the FBI had to do was swap the shell for one of Oswald's and voila, proof Oswald practiced but too bad the FBI was too honest.
JohnM
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Whoopsie! ::)
If the rest of your "evidence" is anything like this, it's no wonder no one listens to you.
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All the FBI had to do was swap the shell for one of Oswald's and voila, proof Oswald practiced but too bad the FBI was too honest.
JohnM
Who do you think the guy was? Any thoughts?
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Whoopsie! ::)
If the rest of your "evidence" is anything like this, it's no wonder no one listens to you.
Says a poster who doesn't cite any evidence. Do you have any idea who this could have been? Are you just here to demean the posters that you don't agree with?
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Who do you think the guy was? Any thoughts?
I don't know but what Tom posted was interesting, she found some 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano shells and they didn't match Oswald's rifle?
It sounds pretty obvious to me like she got some 6.5mm shells from somewhere and not realizing that her story could be checked out with ballistics, just made up a story.
JohnM
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I don't know but what Tom posted was interesting, she found some 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano shells and they didn't match Oswald's rifle?
It sounds pretty obvious to me like she got some 6.5mm shells from somewhere and not realizing that her story could be checked out with ballistics, just made up a story.
JohnM
I'm not saying that this isn't possible, but isn't that something that the FBI should have investigated to know one way or another? This is one of my main issues with the official "investigation" as they did not handle it like they would have in most other cases.
LNers claim that I am a LHO defender when in fact I am really a defender of the American rights we were given by the Constitution. If LHO was really guilty then a shoddy investigation and total ignorance of so many things wouldn't be needed.
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I'm not saying that this isn't possible, but isn't that something that the FBI should have investigated to know one way or another?
Didn't the documents that Tom posted say that they did investigate and that the shells didn't match, what's left to do after that?
JohnM
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Are you just here to demean the posters that you don't agree with?
No.
But, I guess some people here make it all too easy to make it look that way.
And, I'm not afraid to call out BS when I see it.
Carry on.
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Irrelevant question, because....:
(Scroll down one page) On lower left.:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3049.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellFBILab2.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62272&relPageId=71&search=pc-78441
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellFBILab.jpg)
......Next !
There is nothing irrelevant about my question as you posted evidence that this man wasn't LHO, but he looked like him. So again, who was the man who fired a shot at her pasture?
For the record -- there was no "Oswald's rifle" as the FBI claimed based on the evidence.
Thanks for posting these.
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Didn't the documents that Tom posted say that they did investigate and that the shells didn't match, what's left to do after that?
JohnM
No, all they did was try to match the shell to CE 139 which had NO link to LHO or the assassination. Since the FBI said that the shell did not match CE 139, meaning that there was no link to LHO in WC fantasyland, why did they not attempt to find out who this LHO lookalike was?
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No.
But, I guess some people here make it all too easy to make it look that way.
And, I'm not afraid to call out BS when I see it.
Carry on.
What BS? Be specific.
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What BS? Be specific.
You never permit your condition.... blissfull unawareness, to sometime wane to a level allowing you any inclination
to self-moderate your posted content. This thread was created based on your reaction to you not noticing you know
less than you assume. Things are already complicated without you further muddying the waters.
The 1963 home of Mrs. Lovell T Penn is now a museum in a state park. She was reported to have stated she
wrote the license plate info of the car used by the three men on a piece of paper, but discarded it after determining none
of her farm's livestock had been injured by rifle fire. One author described her as a school teacher....
You might consider bringing your suspicions in for a landing and channeling your indignation away from hand wringing
and toward uncovering what potentially could advance the goal of full awareness.
FWIW, Mrs. Penn's husband claimed in 1936 his car was shot at and hit. The point is the Penn couple seem upstanding.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellnewspaper1936.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsLovellTpennGravestone.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioJohnAnderson3.jpg)
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Oswald?s rifle was found in the sniper?s nest. Oswald?s prints were on the rifle. The bullets that killed President Kennedy were ballistically matched to that rifle. And Oswald fled the scene within five minutes.
But the key to this case is finding out who fired a shot in Mrs. Lovell Penn?s pasture.
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(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioJohnAnderson3.jpg)
Shouldn?t Andrew ?Andy? Penn be added to the list of the mysterious deaths?
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Oswald?s rifle was found in the sniper?s nest. Oswald?s prints were on the rifle. The bullets that killed President Kennedy were ballistically matched to that rifle. And Oswald fled the scene within five minutes.
Hidell's rifle. Oswald's 'prints' were not found on it.
Also, there is no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge. A study there for the interested....
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ammo/history.html
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No.
But, I guess some people here make it all too easy to make it look that way.
And, I'm not afraid to call out BS when I see it.
Carry on.
The problem is.... You don't aren't smart enough to know BS from sterling..... And you're not smart enough to know that you're lacking.
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Hidell's rifle. Oswald's 'prints' were not found on it.
Also, there is no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge. A study there for the interested....
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ammo/history.html
?Hidell?s rifle?. And Oswald had a fake ID on him listing his name as ?Hidell?.
And Oswald?s palmprints were found on the rifle by the Dallas Police.
The FBI failed to find any prints on the rifle, but this is irrelevant. If you had an expert lift the prints off an object, pass the object on to a second expert to life the prints, and so on, until ten experts have attempted to lift prints, you are not going to find that all ten experts successfully lifted the prints. Typically, the prints can only be lifted once, maybe twice. And firearms, which is ?oily metal? can be difficult to successfully lift prints even the first time. So, it?s natural that the first lifting of prints made it impossible for someone else to successfully lift prints.
If this is in error, name a single fingerprint expert, anywhere in the world, who disputes this.
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Didn't the documents that Tom posted say that they did investigate and that the shells didn't match, what's left to do after that?
JohnM
Dig up the pasture and shift all the dirt for other possible cartridges. Maybe they might find the body of the real Oswald. Check to see if any of the cattle were forced to swallow any cartridges. Resume the investigation after Andrew ?Andy? Penn died to see what he really died of and to take reports of any suspicious characters seen in the neighborhood in the weeks before he died. There are a lot of things they could have done.
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And Oswald had a fake ID on him listing his name as ?Hidell?.
So the story goes...a supposed alias ...Why would he have and keep this if he knew it linked him to weapons? Show some inquisitiveness.
And Oswald?s palmprints were found on the rifle by the Dallas Police.
So the story goes...the partial palm print is being discussed in the Walker thread....have a glance. Why do people have a complete trust in a police department that they never knew? Man...the cops were in on it.
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?Hidell?s rifle?. And Oswald had a fake ID on him listing his name as ?Hidell?.
So the story goes...a supposed alias ...Why would he have and keep this if he knew it linked him to weapons? Show some inquisitiveness.
Why are prisons filled with men who overlooked some detail? Show some logic.
And Oswald?s palmprints were found on the rifle by the Dallas Police.
So the story goes...the partial palm print is being discussed in the Walker thread....have a glance. Why do people have a complete trust in a police department that they never knew?
So, we should not follow the evidence? Because we should assume the evidence is all faked. But if we do so, truth is determined by what we believe. The evidence, the real world, will have no influence on what we believe. It doesn?t matter what the fingerprint evidence is. Because if it goes against our bias, it is assumed to be faked.
And I am asked to make these assumptions. by the same people who I know lied to me. Who showed me false diagrams of the Single Bullet Theory. And who, to this day, give excuses as to why they do not disproved the Single Bullet Theory, by showing two simple orthogonal diagram, of the situation at z222, which would disproved this theory, if the theory is false.
Man...the cops were in on it.
So, you are obviously a believer not in a Small-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy. You are a believer in a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy. Something no skeptic, no logical person, believes in.
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So, you are obviously a believer not in a Small-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy.
Believe what you want.
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The problem is.... You don't aren't smart enough to know BS from sterling..... And you're not smart enough to know that you're lacking.
If I valued your opinion I would be concerned.
Since you don't know me, it must really bother you that your intelligence is my common sense.
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Oswald?s rifle was found in the sniper?s nest. Oswald?s prints were on the rifle. The bullets that killed President Kennedy were ballistically matched to that rifle. And Oswald fled the scene within five minutes.
But the key to this case is finding out who fired a shot in Mrs. Lovell Penn?s pasture.
You'll notice that there are NO cites in this post because these are UNSUPPORTED claims made in the WCR. Nothing more.
The WC was terrified to explore issues like this one because it only led down conspiracy road.
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Dig up the pasture and shift all the dirt for other possible cartridges. Maybe they might find the body of the real Oswald. Check to see if any of the cattle were forced to swallow any cartridges. Resume the investigation after Andrew ?Andy? Penn died to see what he really died of and to take reports of any suspicious characters seen in the neighborhood in the weeks before he died. There are a lot of things they could have done.
LNers can't deal with a question so they bring up nonsense like this. They want you to believe nothing is odd or suspicious.
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If I valued your opinion I would be concerned.
Since you don't know me, it must really bother you that your intelligence is my common sense.
You forgot to list those facts that you claimed existed. No surprise there.
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You forgot to list those facts that you claimed existed. No surprise there.
The known facts are better than the BS unsupported theories you utter.
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Oswald?s rifle was found in the sniper?s nest. Oswald?s prints were on the rifle. The bullets that killed President Kennedy were ballistically matched to that rifle. And Oswald fled the scene within five minutes.
But the key to this case is finding out who fired a shot in Mrs. Lovell Penn?s pasture.
You'll notice that there are NO cites in this post because these are UNSUPPORTED claims made in the WCR. Nothing more.
The WC was terrified to explore issues like this one because it only led down conspiracy road.
Cites can be provided for each of these points. For example, as to Oswald?s prints on the rifle:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm
Lieutenant Day lifted Oswald?s prints off of the rifle.
The FBI was not able to do so, but once the prints are lifted the first time, it is often impossible to lift them a second time.
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You'll notice that there are NO cites in this post because these are UNSUPPORTED claims made in the WCR. Nothing more.
The WC was terrified to explore issues like this one because it only led down conspiracy road.
Please attempt to justify your opinion relating to the singular claims of Flora Lou Henslee Penn....aka Mrs. Lovell T Penn.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/7HrIV4EyaGI
Robert Caprio 6/1/09
For conciseness and ease of posting I will use A.J. Weberman's
overview of her from his "Nodule 18".
MRS. LOVELL PENN....
....She took the license number of the car and left;
these three men left, and she did not call the police. After a check
of the cattle revealed none of them had been shot, she threw away the
license number. She cannot recall any part of this number....
....Mrs. Lovell Penn was able to recover a 6.5 millimeter spent shell
casing from the area. The FBI determined that it had not been fired
from OSWALD'S Mannlicher-Carcano. [FBI DL-89-43 Henry J. Oliver
dictated 12.2.63]
This is bad for LNers no matter how you look at it....
Considering your OP in this thread, you pretended to know less than you did 9 years ago.
You've been As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'ing about this incident for at least 9 years. It is difficult to appear even more unhinged
than Trump's SCOTUS pick as he whined, under oath, on live TV last Thursday.... a tall order, but you have accomplished
it....at least Kavanaugh's claim he was a victim of the Clintons seemed more reasonable than your whine!
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I almost feel sorry for Caprio reading this thread. Almost.
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The known facts are better than the BS unsupported theories you utter.
So you have no facts. No surprise there.
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Cites can be provided for each of these points. For example, as to Oswald?s prints on the rifle:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm
Lieutenant Day lifted Oswald?s prints off of the rifle.
The FBI was not able to do so, but once the prints are lifted the first time, it is often impossible to lift them a second time.
Unsupported claims in any format are NOT evidence. The FBI did not get the alleged print until 11/29/63. Latona said that he had never seen LHO's hands. This means that he had no way of knowing that the prints he was told were LHO's really were.
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I almost feel sorry for Caprio reading this thread. Almost.
I would feel sorry for the WC since they had no supporting evidence. Why do you support a theory with no supporting evidence?
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I would feel sorry for the WC since they had no supporting evidence. Why do you support a theory with no supporting evidence?
Possibly for this reason, Rob..
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Please attempt to justify your opinion relating to the singular claims of Flora Lou Henslee Penn....aka Mrs. Lovell T Penn.
Considering your OP in this thread, you pretended to know less than you did 9 years ago.
You've been As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'ing about this incident for at least 9 years. It is difficult to appear even more unhinged
than Trump's SCOTUS pick as he whined, under oath, on live TV last Thursday.... a tall order, but you have accomplished
it....at least Kavanaugh's claim he was a victim of the Clintons seemed more reasonable than your whine!
Who Was The Man Who Fired A Shot In Mrs. Lovell Penn?s Pasture?
Rob ....You started this dumb thread ..... What did you hope to accomplish?? Did you think that there was ANYTHING pertinent to the case in this tale?? Or did you simply want to display your stupidity .......
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Who Was The Man Who Fired A Shot In Mrs. Lovell Penn?s Pasture?
Rob ....You started this dumb thread ..... What did you hope to accomplish?? Did you think that there was ANYTHING pertinent to the case in this tale?? Or did you simply want to display your stupidity .......
Your total inability to think is duly noted. Only LNers would think a man who looked like LHO firing a Carcano in a pasture a month before the assassination is irrelevant.
I guess they think all the sightings setting LHO up are irrelevant to their neat and UNSUPPORTED fantasy theory. The fact that they can't answer a simple question like this without mocking me should give everyone pause because it means that their beloved WC didn't bother to check this out. Why not?
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Your total inability to think is duly noted. Only LNers would think a man who looked like LHO firing a Carcano in a pasture a month before the assassination is irrelevant.
I guess they think all the sightings setting LHO up are irrelevant to their neat and UNSUPPORTED fantasy theory. The fact that they can't answer a simple question like this without mocking me should give everyone pause because it means that their beloved WC didn't bother to check this out. Why not?
If it wasn't checked out.....and reported to be irrelevant, then where did the FBI report come from???
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Your total inability to think is duly noted. Only LNers would think a man who looked like LHO firing a Carcano in a pasture a month before the assassination is irrelevant.
I guess they think all the sightings setting LHO up are irrelevant to their neat and UNSUPPORTED fantasy theory. The fact that they can't answer a simple question like this without mocking me should give everyone pause because it means that their beloved WC didn't bother to check this out. Why not?
Only LNers would think a man who looked like LHO firing a Carcano in a pasture a month before the assassination is irrelevant.
And HOW did that shell come to be there?? You nor anybody else knows WHEN that shell was left there in the pasture?
Simply because Mrs Penn saw some young men firing a rifle in the pasture does NOT conclusively prove that it was they who left the shell there.....
Psssst Robbie..... Are you aware that many young men "looked like" Lee? But more important who ( other than Mrs Penn) actually knows what the man that Mrs Penn saw looked like?.... ( If the event actually happened??)
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Why are prisons filled with men who overlooked some detail? Show some logic.
So, we should not follow the evidence? Because we should assume the evidence is all faked. But if we do so, truth is determined by what we believe. The evidence, the real world, will have no influence on what we believe. It doesn?t matter what the fingerprint evidence is. Because if it goes against our bias, it is assumed to be faked.
And I am asked to make these assumptions. by the same people who I know lied to me. Who showed me false diagrams of the Single Bullet Theory. And who, to this day, give excuses as to why they do not disproved the Single Bullet Theory, by showing two simple orthogonal diagram, of the situation at z222, which would disproved this theory, if the theory is false.
But we're being asked to accept assumptions like "Oswald's rifle" by the same people who have lied to us. These are two sides of the same coin. You are assuming that a partial palmprint that showed up a week later on an index card was actually lifted by Carl Day on 11/22 -- who then forgot to mention it to anybody for several days -- just because it fits your biases.
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Of course not since the WC never saw fit to investigate this. What we do know is how rare a 6.5 shell fired from a Carcano is. Prior to the months leading up to the assassination how often was one fired?
Wally the LNer is in full swing to obfuscate this topic. Wally is the inventor of hundreds of nonsensical theories, but has a problem with this issue.
She didn't say that she saw "young men" as you falsely state, but rather a young man who looked like LHO. Why do you distort what was reported?
So in typical LNer fashion she was "mistaken", huh?
My Dear simple minded Robbie..... There was a time when I thought the story told by Mrs Penn was significant.... But it didn't take long for me to realize that it was a"dead horse" and provided NOTHING in the way of provable significant evidence.....
But I'm sure you will go on whipping that dead horse, because you're convinced that you can make that dead horse get up and go.....
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Wally the LNer is the one whipping a dead 🐎. I don't care what you used to have interest in or don't care about. I never have.
It is clear that you cannot answer the question so move on.
The question: Who Was The Man Who Fired A Shot In Mrs. Lovell Penn?s Pasture?
Tell us who the man was Robbie.......
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This is another example of LHO being setup in the months leading up to the assassination. This is why only a cursory check was made. The FBI didn't even bother to get a description of the man Ms. Penn saw.
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Irrelevant question, because....:
(Scroll down one page) On lower left.:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3049.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellFBILab2.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62272&relPageId=71&search=pc-78441
(http://jfkforum.com/images/CaprioMrsPennShellFBILab.jpg)
......Next !
Why is a 6.5mm cartridge/shell noted in this report as belonging to a Mannlicher-Carcano?
Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
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Why is a 6.5mm cartridge/shell noted in this report as belonging to a Mannlicher-Carcano?
Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
Yes, but they weren't setup to point to LHO.
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I almost feel sorry for Caprio reading this thread. Almost.
Oh come on, Richard. One spent shell found on the farm. Dontcha know? It "points to conspiracy".
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Yes, but they weren't setup to point to LHO.
Why is a 6.5mm cartridge/shell noted in this report as belonging to a Mannlicher-Carcano?
Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
Yes, but they weren't setup to point to LHO.
Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
No.... there are Not other rifles the are designed to fire the 6.5mm CARCANO cartridge....That cartridge is identified as being designed to be used in a Mannlicher Carcano rifle by the stamping on the head of the cartridge ...6,5 Carc....
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Oh come on, Richard. One spent shell found on the farm. Dontcha know? It "points to conspiracy".
Of course you take it out of context to make your point. The man looked like LHO and he was supposedly using a Carcano rifle. Add this sighting with a bunch of others and you have something worth investigating.
I guess you can't answer the question either, but who can blame you since the WC never had the FBI address the issue more fully.
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Why is a 6.5mm cartridge/shell noted in this report as belonging to a Mannlicher-Carcano?
Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
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6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
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So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
Thank you for exposing your ignorance AFTER you answered Mr Turner and gave him erroneous information....
Mr Turner....Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
Robbie.....Yes, but they weren't setup to point to LHO.
So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
6.5mm is the diameter of the bore of the rifle barrel......And there are many rifles that have barrels that have a 6.5mm Bore....BUT only the Mannlicher Carcano rifle was designed to fire the 6.5mm CARCANO CARTRIDGE
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So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
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Thank you for exposing your ignorance AFTER you answered Mr Turner and gave him erroneous information....
Mr Turner....Weren't there other rifles that used that caliber?
Robbie.....Yes, but they weren't setup to point to LHO.
So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
6.5mm is the diameter of the bore of the rifle barrel......And there are many rifles that have barrels that have a 6.5mm Bore....BUT only the Mannlicher Carcano rifle was designed to fire the 6.5mm CARCANO CARTRIDGE
It was actually Jake Maxwell who asked the first question rather than me.
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It was actually Jake Maxwell who asked the first question rather than me.
OK, Sorry, Nick, My mistake....
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OK, Sorry, Nick, My mistake....
No problem.
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A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
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A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
That's not what he said at all. He said that there a number different cartridges designed for a 6.5mm bore, but the design of these cartridges differ.
There are a number of military 6.5mm rifle cartridges out there: 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Swedish Mauser, 6.5 Portugese, 6.5 Romanian Mauser, 6.5 Arisaka, etc. There are also a like number of civilian cartridges. While all of the bullets might satisfactorily pass through a 6.5mm barrel, the case designs differ, and a cartridge for one design won't fit in a rifle built for another.
BTW, if you spent a little more time searching, and less time making pointless arguments, you might find that the 6.5 mm round provided by Mrs Penn was a surplus Carcano round made by SMI:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62272&search=pc-78441#relPageId=72&tab=page
BTW, Mrs Penn only said that "she saw a photograph of OSWALD in the newspaper and stated that a side view of OSWALD does not look like this person. The full face photograph, however, she believes does resemble him."
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I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
That's clearly not what I said.
Sometime back you picked me up on not knowing about some piece of evidence you thought significant and said 'If you genuinely cared then you would learn the evidence, but, alas, you want me to spoon feed you instead. I am not going to waste my time.' You don't mind if I borrow it do you?
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That's clearly not what I said.
Sometime back you picked me up on not knowing about some piece of evidence you thought significant and said 'If you genuinely cared then you would learn the evidence, but, alas, you want me to spoon feed you instead. I am not going to waste my time.' You don't mind if I borrow it do you?
"you want me to spoon feed you"
"I am not going to waste my time."
That's the smart thing to do when dealing with, Robbie.... If you try to enlighten him ....He spits in your face.
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That's not what he said at all. He said that there a number different cartridges designed for a 6.5mm bore, but the design of these cartridges differ.
There are a number of military 6.5mm rifle cartridges out there: 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Swedish Mauser, 6.5 Portugese, 6.5 Romanian Mauser, 6.5 Arisaka, etc. There are also a like number of civilian cartridges. While all of the bullets might satisfactorily pass through a 6.5mm barrel, the case designs differ, and a cartridge for one design won't fit in a rifle built for another.
BTW, if you spent a little more time searching, and less time making pointless arguments, you might find that the 6.5 mm round provided by Mrs Penn was a surplus Carcano round made by SMI:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62272&search=pc-78441#relPageId=72&tab=page
BTW, Mrs Penn only said that "she saw a photograph of OSWALD in the newspaper and stated that a side view of OSWALD does not look like this person. The full face photograph, however, she believes does resemble him."
This is what Nicholas Turner originally said:
6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
This is what I am responding to. If you can't follow along then just ignore.
Your star witness for the JDT murder, Helen Markham, supposedly identified LHO by a profile view only so what is your point?
Still no answer on who the LHO lookalike was, huh?
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That's clearly not what I said.
Sometime back you picked me up on not knowing about some piece of evidence you thought significant and said 'If you genuinely cared then you would learn the evidence, but, alas, you want me to spoon feed you instead. I am not going to waste my time.' You don't mind if I borrow it do you?
Can you support your statement or not?
6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
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This is what Nicholas Turner originally said:
This is what I am responding to. If you can't follow along then just ignore.
Your star witness for the JDT murder, Helen Markham, supposedly identified LHO by a profile view only so what is your point?
Still no answer on who the LHO lookalike was, huh?
Even starting from where you'd prefer, you still totally missed it. This is the exchange between you and Nick:
Nick: 6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
Rob: So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
Nick: A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
Rob: I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
His original line simply doesn't assert, imply, or insinuate that "6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C," as you thought. His reply to your first question should have cleared up that misapprehension on your part, but you doubled down. When he gave you a sage bit of advice, that you could easily look it up yourself, you just "didn't want to," as you put it.
That is, you got it wrong in the first place, refused to accept that you misunderstood even after he clarified his statement (which he shouldn't have needed to do in the first place). Then decided to defiantly maintain your ignorance on the subject at hand. You're a real pro!
That being said, as far as I'm concerned, the star witness in the Tippit killing is Ted Callaway. Markham herself said that she wasn't sure until Oswald turned sideways, which of course implies that she did that the he at least resembled the shooter from the front. Table it out, and the difference should be self-evident:
Full Frontal Profile
Markham Maybe Yes
Penn Maybe No
The case given the FBI was made by SMI. The only ammo we know that Oswald had was WCC, and the FBI determined that the Penn case wasn't fired from the Oswald rifle anyway. At that point, there was no point in continuing to pursue the identity of the man in Penn's pasture. Your demand that everyone else identify the man is nothing more than a a way to avoid facing the fact that there was no lead to be found at the Penn property.
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Even starting from where you'd prefer, you still totally missed it. This is the exchange between you and Nick:
Nick: 6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
Rob: So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
Nick: A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
Rob: I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
His original line simply doesn't assert, imply, or insinuate that "6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C," as you thought. His reply to your first question should have cleared up that misapprehension on your part, but you doubled down. When he gave you a sage bit of advice, that you could easily look it up yourself, you just "didn't want to," as you put it.
That is, you got it wrong in the first place, refused to accept that you misunderstood even after he clarified his statement (which he shouldn't have needed to do in the first place). Then decided to defiantly maintain your ignorance on the subject at hand. You're a real pro!
That being said, as far as I'm concerned, the star witness in the Tippit killing is Ted Callaway. Markham herself said that she wasn't sure until Oswald turned sideways, which of course implies that she did that the he at least resembled the shooter from the front. Table it out, and the difference should be self-evident:
Full Frontal Profile
Markham Maybe Yes
Penn Maybe No
The case given the FBI was made by SMI. The only ammo we know that Oswald had was WCC, and the FBI determined that the Penn case wasn't fired from the Oswald rifle anyway. At that point, there was no point in continuing to pursue the identity of the man in Penn's pasture. Your demand that everyone else identify the man is nothing more than a a way to avoid facing the fact that there was no lead to be found at the Penn property.
He stated "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano". This implies that there is a 6.5 type exclusive to the M-C. I have asked him to support this. What is wrong with that?
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Can you support your statement or not?
Can I? Yes. Will I? No. If you don't want to look yourself then I'm not going to waste my time on it. If I were to take the time to point you to the online references you'd probably just claim that they were fake anyway, created as part of the on going conspiracy and cover up.
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He stated "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano". This implies that there is a 6.5 type exclusive to the M-C. I have asked him to support this. What is wrong with that?
It's how you responded, not what he said. Let's go through this again:
Nick: 6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
Rob: So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
Nick: A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
Rob: I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
"A 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C" does not "impl[y] that there is a 6.5 type exclusive to the M-C." It implies that that a Carcano is the only rifle that fires a 6.5mm round. We could forgive you for clumsy wording if it were only that, but, you followed up with, "you made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge" which out-and-out states that only a Carcano fires a 6.5mm round.
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Can I? Yes. Will I? No. If you don't want to look yourself then I'm not going to waste my time on it. If I were to take the time to point you to the online references you'd probably just claim that they were fake anyway, created as part of the on going conspiracy and cover up.
Sadly this is the standard and behavior of those that support the WC's conclusion. They can say whatever they want and refuse to support it. In fact, they tell you to find the cite or supporting information yourself.
OTOH, those that don't support the WC's conclusion are expected to cite endlessly for the statements that they make.
The truth is "6.5" is a caliber. There is no "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano" cartridge as the WC misleadingly stated and that is why Mr. Turner won't even try to support it.
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It's how you responded, not what he said. Let's go through this again:
Nick: 6.5mm Mannlicher--Carcano is a piece of ammunition.
Rob: So a 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C? Can you support this?
Nick: A 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano is the name of a particular design of cartridge. There are other 6.5 mm calibre cartridges if different designs. You can look it up online.
Rob: I don't want to. You made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge. Is this true or not?
"A 6.5 mm is exclusive to a M-C" does not "impl[y] that there is a 6.5 type exclusive to the M-C." It implies that that a Carcano is the only rifle that fires a 6.5mm round. We could forgive you for clumsy wording if it were only that, but, you followed up with, "you made it sound like only a M-C could fire a 6.5 mm cartridge" which out-and-out states that only a Carcano fires a 6.5mm round.
Nice try, but I wasn't the one who misspoke.
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If only the LNers spent as much time trying to figure out who the LHO lookalike was since the WC didn't bother.
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Sadly this is the standard and behavior of those that support the WC's conclusion. They can say whatever they want and refuse to support it. In fact, they tell you to find the cite or supporting information yourself.
OTOH, those that don't support the WC's conclusion are expected to cite endlessly for the statements that they make.
The truth is "6.5" is a caliber. There is no "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano" cartridge as the WC misleadingly stated and that is why Mr. Turner won't even try to support it.
There is no "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano" cartridge
Rob... Extract your head.... There most certainly is a 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano Cartridge....... It was manufactured by the millions to be used in the Italian Mannlicher Carcano rifles. And there are dozens of other rifles that fire a 6.5mm bullet (projectile) They have a bore of 6.5mm ....But the casing for those other 6.5 rifles is different than the Mannlicher Carcano Shell. The shell (casing) that the bullet ( projectile) is seated in for the Mannlicher Carcano is commonly stamped 6,5 Carc to identify it as being designed to be fired in the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano.
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The truth is "6.5" is a caliber. There is no "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano" cartridge as the WC misleadingly stated and that is why Mr. Turner won't even try to support it.
They are definitely not interchangeable. There are many 6.5 cartridges, but the 6.5/.264 bullet is the only common physical trait shared by them. Ballistics may be very similar with some of the loads such as 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Lapua and .260 Remington. When compared to 6.5 Swedish Mauser, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Arisaka and other variants they are very different.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-6-5-Creedmoor-and-a-6-5-Grendel-Are-both-rounds-interchangeable
Many of the 6.5 rounds share a similar case capacity to the Creedmoor, though not interchangeable.
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/11/6-5-creedmoor-ammo/#axzz5THawkCFz
JohnM
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They are definitely not interchangeable. There are many 6.5 cartridges, but the 6.5/.264 bullet is the only common physical trait shared by them. Ballistics may be very similar with some of the loads such as 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Lapua and .260 Remington. When compared to 6.5 Swedish Mauser, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Arisaka and other variants they are very different.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-6-5-Creedmoor-and-a-6-5-Grendel-Are-both-rounds-interchangeable
Many of the 6.5 rounds share a similar case capacity to the Creedmoor, though not interchangeable.
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/11/6-5-creedmoor-ammo/#axzz5THawkCFz
JohnM
Is there an answer as to who the LHO lookalike was in here?
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Is there an answer as to who the LHO lookalike was in here?
The shells were determined not to be from Oswald's rifle. What's next?
Btw why wouldn't the "crooked" FBI say it was Oswald, this would "prove" that Oswald practiced at Penn's pasture!
JohnM
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[...]
The truth is "6.5" is a caliber. There is no "6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano" cartridge as the WC misleadingly stated and that is why Mr. Turner won't even try to support it.
Oh, geez...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5%C3%9752mm_Carcano
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Oh, geez...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5%C3%9752mm_Carcano
If anybody was under the impression that Rob Caprio was honest man of character..... This thread should be a real "eye opener" , and dispel that illusion.
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The shells were determined not to be from Oswald's rifle. What's next?
Which rifle was linked to LHO with supporting evidence? None. So what was "Oswald's rifle?"
why wouldn't the "crooked" FBI say it was Oswald, this would "prove" that Oswald practiced at Penn's pasture!
JohnM
Probably because they knew that they couldn't place him there. Why do all these sightings with LHO lookalikes not give you pause?
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Oh, geez...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5%C3%9752mm_Carcano
Oh geez indeed. You are not interested in the *actual topic* of this thread, but came rushing to the defense of Turner. Why is that?
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Probably because they knew that they couldn't place him there. Why do all these sightings with LHO lookalikes not give you pause?
Probably because they knew that they couldn't place him there.
Exactly, Oswald can only exist in one place at one time so what's the point of an LHO lookalike?
Why do all these sightings with LHO lookalikes not give you pause?
Famous lookalike sightings are a dime a dozen.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs14sNxK/elvis_sighting.jpg)
JohnM
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Oh geez indeed. You are not interested in the *actual topic* of this thread, but came rushing to the defense of Turner. Why is that?
The topic got addressed when it was noted that:
1.) The shell Penn gave to the FBI wasn't fired from Oswald's rifle
2.) It was made by SMI and not by WCC
3.) The mystery man only "resembled" Oswald from the front. He didn't look like Oswald in profile.
With no other evidence, there is no good reason to assume that it could have been Oswald in the first place.
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Exactly, Oswald can only exist in one place at one time so what's the point of an LHO lookalike?
Famous lookalike sightings are a dime a dozen.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs14sNxK/elvis_sighting.jpg)
JohnM
LHO wasn't famous. These lookalike sightings were intended to make the real LHO look guilty. If you had taken the time to read my series you would have seen how many of these sightings there were.
I agree that IF this was the only one it would be no big deal, but it was NOT. It was one of a good number.
Why were all these sightings brushed off by the WC? Especially when they said that it wasn't LHO in some of the cases?
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The topic got addressed when it was noted that:
1.) The shell Penn gave to the FBI wasn't fired from Oswald's rifle
2.) It was made by SMI and not by WCC
3.) The mystery man only "resembled" Oswald from the front. He didn't look like Oswald in profile.
With no other evidence, there is no good reason to assume that it could have been Oswald in the first place.
Who said that it was LHO in the first place? I stated from the beginning that the man looked like LHO, but wasn't him. What evidence are you using to claim that there was an "Oswald's rifle?" Be specific.
He only resembled LHO from "the front." Good one. This is the preferred method for identification and you act like it is no big deal.
So again, who was this LHO lookalike firing 6.5 rounds in the weeks before the assassination?
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Who said that it was LHO in the first place? I stated from the beginning that the man looked like LHO, but wasn't him. What evidence are you using to claim that there was an "Oswald's rifle?" Be specific.
He only resembled LHO from "the front." Good one. This is the preferred method for identification and you act like it is no big deal.
So again, who was this LHO lookalike firing 6.5 rounds in the weeks before the assassination?
Rob , Why is it that you can't see that you're providing the LNer's with a stereotype of a CT ??...... You are often irrational and will continue to argue from an irrational platform, which casts you as a loon.
There clearly is nothing to be gained by trying to make a case from a tale told by an old woman ( like Mrs Bledsoe) who had a 6.5mm Carcano cartridge casing and claimed that she found it in her pasture after chasing some young man ( or men ...the story varies ) off her farm about 20 miles from Dallas. The casing was manufacture in Italy and was not identical to the casings that had been planted in the TSBD....which had been manufactured in the US.
At first I thought you were being hilarious by projecting the image of a fool whipping a dead horse.....Now I think it's pathetic.
You would do yourself well by admitting that you've been foolish and irrational.
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LHO wasn't famous. These lookalike sightings were intended to make the real LHO look guilty. If you had taken the time to read my series you would have seen how many of these sightings there were.
I agree that IF this was the only one it would be no big deal, but it was NOT. It was one of a good number.
Why were all these sightings brushed off by the WC? Especially when they said that it wasn't LHO in some of the cases?
LHO wasn't famous.
:D
As soon as Oswald appeared on the 6 o'clock news and was on the front page of virtually every newspaper he was instantly famous.
These lookalike sightings were intended to make the real LHO look guilty.
Well Rob, they had a perfect chance to make Oswald look guilty at Penn's Pasture, but apparently according to you they weren't exactly co-ordinating their Oswald's doubles and let them run wild just to see what happens.
If you had taken the time to read my series you would have seen how many of these sightings there were.
I am aware of the sightings and none have any proof that they occurred before the 22nd.
JohnM
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:D
As soon as Oswald appeared on the 6 o'clock news and was on the front page of virtually every newspaper he was instantly famous.
Well Rob, they had a perfect chance to make Oswald look guilty at Penn's Pasture, but apparently according to you they weren't exactly co-ordinating their Oswald's doubles and let them run wild just to see what happens.
I am aware of the sightings and none have any proof that they occurred before the 22nd.
JohnM
Yeah, but the sightings were BEFORE he was famous. How do you explain that? If you think none of the sightings occurred before November 22, 1963, then you are either not familiar with the sightings or being dishonest.
All the sightings involving a lookalike were BEFORE the assassination.
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Rob , Why is it that you can't see that you're providing the LNer's with a stereotype of a CT ??...... You are often irrational and will continue to argue from an irrational platform, which casts you as a loon.
There clearly is nothing to be gained by trying to make a case from a tale told by an old woman ( like Mrs Bledsoe) who had a 6.5mm Carcano cartridge casing and claimed that she found it in her pasture after chasing some young man ( or men ...the story varies ) off her farm about 20 miles from Dallas. The casing was manufacture in Italy and was not identical to the casings that had been planted in the TSBD....which had been manufactured in the US.
At first I thought you were being hilarious by projecting the image of a fool whipping a dead horse.....Now I think it's pathetic.
You would do yourself well by admitting that you've been foolish and irrational.
Good post Walt.
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Good post Walt.
Hilarious. This thread shows that a LHO lookalike was firing a Carcano rifle in the weeks leading up to the assassination. LHO would be accused of this crime while allegedly using a Carcano rifle.
This is but one example of someone resembling LHO doing something to draw attention to himself in the weeks leading up to the assassination.
Only LNers would find this not suspicious.
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Hilarious. This thread shows that a LHO lookalike was firing a Carcano rifle in the weeks leading up to the assassination. LHO would be accused of this crime while allegedly using a Carcano rifle.
This is but one example of someone resembling LHO doing something to draw attention to himself in the weeks leading up to the assassination.
Only LNers would find this not suspicious.
This thread shows that a LHO lookalike was firing a Carcano rifle in the weeks leading up to the assassination. LHO would be accused of this crime while allegedly using a Carcano rifle.
The ONLY thing that "may" be a fact ....Is the fact that an old woman had a 6.5mm carcano casing......
Beyond that, we only know the tale the woman told...
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Walt Cakebread -- take the hint. You are on my ignore list as I was banned for two days within a minute of responding to you.
I have expressed my opinion on you many times over the years and have wasted enough time with you. If you can't respond and deal with the topic of this thread then please move on.
It is a joke that you would claim someone else is making CTers look bad considering all the wacky claims that you have made over the years.
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Famous lookalike sightings are a dime a dozen.
Yep: Callaway, Guinyard, Scoggins....
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The case given the FBI was made by SMI. The only ammo we know that Oswald had was WCC, and the FBI determined that the Penn case wasn't fired from the Oswald rifle anyway.
Wait.....how do "we" know that Oswald had ammo?
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Walt Cakebread -- take the hint. You are on my ignore list as I was banned for two days within a minute of responding to you.
I have expressed my opinion on you many times over the years and have wasted enough time with you. If you can't respond and deal with the topic of this thread then please move on.
It is a joke that you would claim someone else is making CTers look bad considering all the wacky claims that you have made over the years.
Walt Cakebread -- take the hint. You are on my ignore list as I was banned for two days within a minute of responding to you.
Geeez....I'm sorry Robbie.... I'm sure that it's my my fault, and it's a pity that you were banned for two days because of me..