???
Frivolous?
You have posted more times in thread than anyone else? Go figure?
JohnM
In this thread you have posted three times, Tom only once. Go figure.
Huh?Just correcting you.
I was talking to Tony and why would I have a problem posting in my own thread?
JohnM
Just correcting you.
If you think so, then good for you.
Btw why didn't the bullets pass right through Kennedy's neck who had not one broken bone but a single bullet crashed right through Connally's torso and smashed bones?
JohnM
Because it didn't pas through his neck, dufus.
That's typical of the line of argument they hope someday to present to a Senate-level Inquiry.
Here comes Jerry "only two shots" to the discussion. Tell us how the witnesses who saw the President shot in the shoulder, not the neck, got it wrong, Jerry.
Tell the Senate how your SBT-alternative theory works better, Ray.
Tell the Senate how your SBT-alternative theory works better, Ray.
Yeah, and I'd like to see the looks on the Senate faces as Ray goes into great detail describing half a dozen snipers firing a couple of dozen shots.
JohnM
Can any CTs explain why Kennedy's bullets broke no bones, had less distance to travel through flesh than Connally's back bullet but still stayed in JFK's body? Did physics take a holiday on the 22nd?
According to CT legend
Can any LNers explain why anybody should trust anything in the official autopsy results?
Perhaps you would like to tell us seeing as Jerry couldn't, John.
"Tell us how the witnesses who saw the President shot in the shoulder, not the neck, got it wrong."
Still waiting for an answer from Mytton.Specify your witnesses along with a brief quote or summation for each.
Humes (the wound mover) is the one who said the back wound was a shallow wound . The only wound that transversed the body of JFK was the bullet that hit him in the right temple and blew out the back of his head .
Those who refuse to explain where the bullet went after it hit President Kennedy's upper-back and came out his neck beneath the adam's apple are "implying" the missile stayed inside his body.Since it did not hit bone or anything else that was capable of applying a lateral force of sufficient magnitude to signficantly change the bullet's direction, it must hhave continued in a straight line. The question is: what was on that line?
Since it did not hit bone or anything else that was capable of applying a lateral force of sufficient magnitude to signficantly change the bullet's direction, it must hhave continued in a straight line. The question is: what was on that line?
The correct answer to that question depends on when the bullet struck JFK. If it struck at z223 or so it could not have struck JBC in the right armpit. Even if the tumbling bullet was able to somehow miss striking JFK's hands, the trajectory goes too far to the left side of JBC. If it struck after z191 and before z202, as the evidence strongly indicates, other possibilities arise.
Those who refuse to explain where the bullet went after it hit President Kennedy's upper-back and came out his neck beneath the adam's apple are "implying" the missile stayed inside his body.Certainly the only logical argument put forward by the WC was to have a magic bullet introduced to make 7 wounds in total. This bullet needed to be found and came to be known as CE399 and introduced to support a lone gunman scenario. It appears to be a FMJ (full metal jacket) that tumbled out of the abdomen and lost a few grains in JC's leg! His muscular leg rejected the rest onto the gurney where it was found later, although a few grains did somehow leave the bullet during its tumble and penetrated the leg - narrowly missing the femoral artery!
'Even if the tumbling bullet was able to somehow miss striking JFK's hands..'He did not have to raise his hands at all. His hands were already in front of his chest. Look at where his hands are when he emerges from behind the sign (frame z224). Then look at the path from his neck tie knot where the bullet emerged to JBC's right armpit. How does it miss his hands or forearms?
Tell us how JFK would be able raise his hands up fast enough to intercept a supersonic bullet travelling back-to-front through his neck.
He did not have to raise his hands at all. His hands were already in front of his chest. Look at where his hands are when he emerges from behind the sign (frame z224). Then look at the path from his neck tie knot where the bullet emerged to JBC's right armpit. How does it miss his hands or forearms?
| (http://i66.tinypic.com/2b7jhu.jpg) (http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/shot2.gif) (Myers) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z224.jpg) (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/hsca/canning/reworked/wcr-sbtslope.jpg) |
He did not have to raise his hands at all. His hands were already in front of his chest. Look at where his hands are when he emerges from behind the sign (frame z224). Then look at the path from his neck tie knot where the bullet emerged to JBC's right armpit. How does it miss his hands or forearms?If the SBT is true, and the experiments of Dr. Lattimer are valid, the coat movement at z224 indicates the bullet hit JFK and Connally at z222, one tenth of a second before.
All you have done is make case that his right hand may not have been directly on the path from his neck exit wound to JBC's right armpit. We don't know exactly where it was in z222. So it is a conjecture that at z222 it was not close to the position seen in z224. But that was not the point I was making. I was making the point that the trajectory still doesn't work. "Even if the tumbling bullet was able to somehow miss striking JFK's hands..", the trajectory to JBC's right armpit is left to right whereas the bullet path is right to left.
In z222, the most critical frame, it is impossible to see where either hand is.
In z223, it is impossible to see where the right hand is, but the left hand is clearly too low, at about the level of Connally?s armpit wound.
In z224, we see JFK?s right hand, about lines up with the top of the leather seats.
In z225, JFK?s right hand has dropped a couple of inches.
Only in z225, is either hand, the right hand, at about the right level to intercept the bullet. And even this hand must be to far to his right. Try it yourself. Rest your right elbow on a chair so the elbow is a few inches lower than the shoulder, as JFK was positioned. Wave to the crowds on the left, lower your hand, then raiser to wave to the crowds on the right. At no point should even the fingers of your right hand get directly in front of your throat. Your fingers should not be quite long enough to reach there.
Also, if we assume what was happening, it appears JFK was waving to the crowds while behind the sign. As he was emerging from behind the sign, we can see he was done waving for the moment and was lowering his right hand. This is why is hand is lower in z225 than z224. If we extrapolate to z222, his right hand must have been much further higher. Way to high.
No competent umpire would call that a strike. That was a ball, too low and too outside the reach of his hand.
But really, I have only one question for you Andrew.I have posted many times various projections from a 3D model that is a 1:1 scale model of the limo and Dealey Plaza. I have also shown in various photos using sight lines and mapping those sightlines onto a scale model of the limo, that JBC is not inboard of JFK enough to put his right ampit to the left of JFK's neck exit wound, let alone the 4-5 inches required. JBC is in the middle of his seat. That fact can be seen not only in the zfilm but also in photos on Houston as shown in this simple sightline analysis (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/first_shot_trajectory_13deg.pdf)
The best way to determine the truth is with Orthographic or Multiview drawings. Ideally two drawings, at z222, one showing a view from above and the other a view from the side. An example of an orthographic drawing is shown below.
(https://ict2011dnt.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/first-17.jpg)
With orthographic drawings from both sides, one can compare, for example, the angle the bullet makes with the limousine, as seen from the top view, with maps of Dealey Plaza.
The following webpage shows a couple of orthographic drawings of the SBT.
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Single-bullet_theory
About halfway down the page is two Single Bullet Theory diagrams shown. The anti-SBT is shown about the Pro-SBT drawing. The Pro-SBT diagram properly shows JFK sitting well outboard of Connally, as we can tell from the Dave Powers film.
For some reason, CTers produce drawings that are obviously wildly off. They seem designed to fool people who don?t know the angles of Dealey Plaza, and who don?t check. For people that don?t check the angles they seem very convincing. A bullet path from the sniper?s nest seems to miss Connally by a lot. But more accurate drawings seem to indicate the bullet should hit near Connally?s armpit, both as seen from the top view and the side view.
Question:
Why don?t those who believe the SBT is false show accurate Orthographic drawings, and use these drawings to convince newcomers that the SBT is false.
In my experience, CTers are most reluctant to provide a link on the internet to such a diagram. They just provide excuses as to why they don?t need to do this. If the SBT was really false, such accurate orthographic diagrams would be power tools to show it is false.
He did not have to raise his hands at all. His hands were already in front of his chest. Look at where his hands are when he emerges from behind the sign (frame z224). Then look at the path from his neck tie knot where the bullet emerged to JBC's right armpit. How does it miss his hands or forearms?
;DdI agree that he is reacting to his neck wound in z224. He has already been hit in the back/neck. The question is: when did it happen? The SBT is predicated on a physical reaction of his face arms and hands within 100 ms of being wounded. All I am saying is that his reaction is also consistent with being hit at z195 or so and a more gradual reaction as he realizes something is wrong and which suddenly becomes acute as he tries to breathe (z226 and after). Since a human normally takes about 12-20 breaths per minute, it is understandable why there might be a second or more after the bullet strikes before JFK tries to take his next breath.
His hands, at his chest or not, wouldn't fists if he hadn't already been hit
We keep seeing CTs speculate that Kennedy's back bullet and the throat bullet must still be inside Kennedy but Connally's bullet ripped right through his torso and smashed ribs along the way, just as you'd expect from an assassination attempt.
Can any CTs explain why Kennedy's bullets broke no bones, had less distance to travel through flesh than Connally's back bullet but still stayed in JFK's body? Did physics take a holiday on the 22nd?
JohnM
Those who refuse to explain where the bullet went after it hit President Kennedy's upper-back and came out his neck beneath the adam's apple are "implying" the missile stayed inside his body.
Tell us how to get a finger into the small wound channel produced by FMJ ammo
We keep seeing LNers speculate that a bullet entered JFK at the base of his neck and exited through his throat, but nearly 55 years later they have failed to provide any supporting evidence for this claim.There is abundant proof that a bullet entered his back and exited his throat. First of all, there was a hole in his throat that was observed by doctors in Parkland. Second, there were slits in his shirt in the doubled button area under the tie knot and there was a nick on the underside left side of his tie knot. There is no conceivable way anything but a bullet could have made that hole in his throat. For example, we can see in the zfilm that he was not stabbed with a tiny round pole. If the hole in his throat was made by a bullet these holes were necessarily made by a bullet either entering or exiting. The characteristics of the threads on these holes indicated that the holes in the shirt were made by an exiting bullet. Since human necks are not known to spontaneously produce and expel bullets, this means that the bullet had entered JFK's neck from behind.
Why don?t those who believe the SBT is false show accurate Orthographic drawings, and use these drawings to convince newcomers that the SBT is false.
There is abundant proof that a bullet entered his back and exited his throat. First of all, there was a hole in his throat that was observed by doctors in Parkland. Second, there were slits in his shirt in the doubled button area under the tie knot and there was a nick on the underside left side of his tie knot. There is no conceivable way anything but a bullet could have made that hole in his throat. For example, we can see in the zfilm that he was not stabbed with a tiny round pole. If the hole in his throat was made by a bullet these holes were necessarily made by a bullet either entering or exiting. The characteristics of the threads on these holes indicated that the holes in the shirt were made by an exiting bullet. Since human necks are not known to spontaneously produce and expel bullets, this means that the bullet had entered JFK's neck from behind.
All you have done is make case that his right hand may not have been directly on the path from his neck exit wound to JBC's right armpit. We don't know exactly where it was in z222. So it is a conjecture that at z222 it was not close to the position seen in z224. But that was not the point I was making. I was making the point that the trajectory still doesn't work. "Even if the tumbling bullet was able to somehow miss striking JFK's hands..", the trajectory to JBC's right armpit is left to right whereas the bullet path is right to left.Yes, we don?t know exactly where the hand was in z222. Which means we can?t use the hand position to rule out the SBT.
I have posted many times various projections from a 3D model that is a 1:1 scale model of the limo and Dealey Plaza. I have also shown in various photos using sight lines and mapping those sightlines onto a scale model of the limo, that JBC is not inboard of JFK enough to put his right ampit to the left of JFK's neck exit wound, let alone the 4-5 inches required. JBC is in the middle of his seat. That fact can be seen not only in the zfilm but also in photos on Houston as shown in this simple sightline analysis (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/first_shot_trajectory_13deg.pdf)You have a horizontal angle of 13 degrees. My measurements from maps indicated that at z222, the angle should be 8.5 degrees. This would make a difference of 2.3 inches, horizontally.
Yes, we don?t know exactly where the hand was in z222. Which means we can?t use the hand position to rule out the SBT.I don't know how you can say the right hand would be too far to the right in z222 when we cannot see it. It seems to me that the arm and hand is between the throat exit wound location and JBC's right armpit in z224 because the right armpit is right of JFK's midline.
However, a higher hand position at z222 is a more likely position than the z224 position. It is unlikely that JFK was waving at the crowd. Lowered his hand down to the z224 position, and held it there. And then resumed lowing it at z225. More likely, he was lowing his hand all during the z220-z225 sequence. Just like he did so many other times during that motorcade.
In any case, no matter what level his hand was at z222, the hand should be too far outboard, too far to his right, to be directly in front of his throat. I?ve tried simulated casual waves and my fingers come up a couple in inches short of being in front of the throat.
You have a horizontal angle of 13 degrees. My measurements from maps indicated that at z222, the angle should be 8.5 degrees. This would make a difference of 2.3 inches, horizontally.I have set the angle at 13 degrees because that is what it is at z195. It is actually a bit more than 13 deg. But that is not the point. The point is that JBC is in the middle of his seat and his right armpit is right of JFK's midline. Unless you can show that JFK is dramatically farther right in z222 than he is in z186 or on Houston or JBC is much farther left in z222 than in earlier frames, the trajectory from JFK's throat exit wound goes well to the left of JBC's spine.
Also, you have JFK too far inboard. Your diagram shows his right elbow barely reaching the side of the car. From the picture you provide, his elbow extends a few inches beyond. This makes more sense, because if his elbow barely reached the side of the car, it would often be slipping off the side of the car while he was resting it during that last 45 minutes.
You have a horizontal angle of 13 degrees. My measurements from maps indicated that at z222, the angle should be 8.5 degrees. . . .
I don't know how you can say the right hand would be too far to the right in z222 when we cannot see it. It seems to me that the arm and hand is between the throat exit wound location and JBC's right armpit in z224 because the right armpit is right of JFK's midline.I have set the angle at 13 degrees because that is what it is at z195. It is actually a bit more than 13 deg. But that is not the point. . . .This is the point. The Warren Commission had the SBT occurring during z210-z225. The HSCA had it much earlier, around z195. But an earlier SBT was rejected by the LN community.
Yes, we don?t know exactly where the hand was in z222. Which means we can?t use the hand position to rule out the SBT.
However, a higher hand position at z222 is a more likely position than the z224 position. It is unlikely that JFK was waving at the crowd. Lowered his hand down to the z224 position, and held it there. And then resumed lowing it at z225. More likely, he was lowering his hand all during the z220-z225 sequence. Just like he did so many other times during that motorcade.
In any case, no matter what level his hand was at z222, the hand should be too far outboard, too far to his right, to be directly in front of his throat. I?ve tried simulated casual waves and my fingers come up a couple in inches short of being in front of the throat.
I don't know how you can say the right hand would be too far to the right in z222 when we cannot see it. It seems to me that the arm and hand is between the throat exit wound location and JBC's right armpit in z224 because the right armpit is right of JFK's midline.I know the hand is too far to the right because when I sit in a chair, rest my right elbow on a chair several inches below my shoulder, and practice waving my hand and then bringing it down to rest, my forearm, my hand, even my fingers, never get in front of where the knot of my tie would be if I was wearing a tie.
This is the point. The Warren Commission had the SBT occurring during z210-z225. The HSCA had it much earlier, around z195. But an earlier SBT was rejected by the LN community.
For the last 25+ years, the LN community accepts the SBT occurring during z221-z224. No LNer pushes for a SBT at z195.
I have modified your drawing, changing it from a z195 13 degrees angle to a z222 8.5 degree angle:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1948/45188918661_21826fa1b1_z.jpg)
I used MS Paint which has limitations. And I am not a graphic artist. But this one change makes it line up pretty close.
Which shows why, after over fifty years, CTers do not use an accurate orthographic diagrams, showing the situation at z221-z224, to demonstrate why the SBT is impossible. Instead they prefer to use words.
This is the point. The Warren Commission had the SBT occurring during z210-z225. The HSCA had it much earlier, around z195. But an earlier SBT was rejected by the LN community.Wrong. I do, at least a modified version of the SBT that passed through JFK's neck and struck JBC - just not in the back.
For the last 25+ years, the LN community accepts the SBT occurring during z221-z224. No LNer pushes for a SBT at z195.
I have modified your drawing, changing it from a z195 13 degrees angle to a z222 8.5 degree angle:If you are doing it at z221-224 you have to show their positions as shown in those frames. For JFK you need to use z225. You have JBC turned farther right than the sightline to Zapruder. That was his position around z193, but not z221-4. z221-4 shows him practically turned forward to the front. You also have to put JFK farther left than you show him because his right elbow is no longer on the car. He has moved left. Even in z193 his arm extends out to the right from his shoulder so his rib cage could not be pressed right against the side. In z225 he is farther to the left than that. You have him still as far to the right as anyone could be in that seat.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1948/45188918661_21826fa1b1_z.jpg)
I used MS Paint which has limitations. And I am not a graphic artist. But this one change makes it line up pretty close.
Which shows why, after over fifty years, CTers do not use an accurate orthographic diagrams, showing the situation at z221-z224, to demonstrate why the SBT is impossible. Instead they prefer to use words.
Joe, in your above diagram, where do you believe the bullet which went through John Connolly, exits his body?The diagram I posted was just a modification of Andrew Mason?s diagram except:
This is the point. The Warren Commission had the SBT occurring during z210-z225. The HSCA had it much earlier, around z195. But an earlier SBT was rejected by the LN community.
For the last 25+ years, the LN community accepts the SBT occurring during z221-z224. No LNer pushes for a SBT at z195.
I have modified your drawing, changing it from a z195 13 degrees angle to a z222 8.5 degree angle:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1948/45188918661_21826fa1b1_z.jpg)
I used MS Paint which has limitations. And I am not a graphic artist. But this one change makes it line up pretty close.
Which shows why, after over fifty years, CTers do not use an accurate orthographic diagrams, showing the situation at z221-z224, to demonstrate why the SBT is impossible. Instead they prefer to use words.