JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on September 13, 2018, 11:05:35 PM

Title: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 13, 2018, 11:05:35 PM
Junior Jarman
From Jarman's Affidavit 11/23/63

At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember).

FBI interview 11/24/63

No mention of the ascent to the 5th floor just that Williams and Norman were with him at the time of the motorcade.

SS interview 12/2/63

"After eating lunch Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor to watch the President pass by."

FBI interview 1/14/64
"He said that he and the other two boys (Norman and Williams) ate lunch on the first floor around 12 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade.

Harold Norman
FBI interview 11/26/63

As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

SS interview and Affidavit 12/4/63

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."

FBI interview 3/18/64

He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appear that he felt the shots occurred at this time.

Williams also changed his version of events on multiple occasions. When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 13, 2018, 11:44:32 PM
I don't see the problem, at first with all the excitement they just gave a rough description and as time went on they were simply encouraged to recall more specific details.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 12:52:53 AM
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I don't see the problem, at first with all the excitement they just gave a rough description and as time went on they were simply encouraged to recall more specific details.

JohnM

(https://image.ibb.co/fXHyaU/7_CA87_FDC_B079_4_FB0_AFFD_53_DA3446_DA24.jpg)

So you consider this like the information provided by Arnold Rowland? He provided more information during his WC testimony too.

Except the accounts by Jarman and Norman were consistent and specific with respect to Williams being with them prior to accompanying them upstairs before the shooting......not rough estimates. It was Williams who had to change the "story" as time went on. How do you explain that they were repeatedly independently consistent? Coincidence that they both got false memory?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 01:53:31 AM
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(https://image.ibb.co/fXHyaU/7_CA87_FDC_B079_4_FB0_AFFD_53_DA3446_DA24.jpg)

So you consider this like the information provided by Arnold Rowland? He provided more information during his WC testimony too.

Except the accounts by Jarman and Norman were consistent and specific with respect to Williams being with them prior to accompanying them upstairs before the shooting......not rough estimates. It was Williams who had to change the "story" as time went on. How do you explain that they were repeatedly independently consistent? Coincidence that they both got false memory?

(https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/three-stooges.jpg)

Why this silly game, all I see is question after question that can't possibly be answered to your satisfaction by anyone other than yourself?

Anyway, you clearly have already made up your mind and it's perfectly understandable why you're reluctant to reveal your alternate narrative but Man up and put your cards on the table and let's discuss that?

JohnM


Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 03:15:45 AM
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(https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/three-stooges.jpg)

Why this silly game, all I see is question after question that can't possibly be answered to your satisfaction by anyone other than yourself?

Anyway, you clearly have already made up your mind and it's perfectly understandable why you're reluctant to reveal your alternate narrative but Man up and put your cards on the table and let's discuss that?

JohnM

My original post contained a single question. I asked you further questions to allow you to further discuss your position. I have revealed my view.....clearly they lied. Your narrative is that they were mistaken in their recollection and your considered response is noted. I assume you therefore have nothing to contribute further.

The question is when they most likely agreed to deceive and therefore is for those that concur with what I propose to be the logical narrative given the circumstances.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 14, 2018, 03:25:22 AM
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My original post contained a single question. I asked you further questions to allow you to further discuss your position. I have revealed my view.....clearly they lied. Your narrative is that they were mistaken in their recollection and your considered response is noted. I assume you therefore have nothing to contribute further.

The question is when they most likely agreed to deceive and therefore is for those that concur with what I propose to be the logical narrative given the circumstances.

Are you introducing a new rule on how people discuss issues here? That's more than a little presumptuous in my opinion.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 03:36:33 AM
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Are you introducing a new rule on how people discuss issues here? That's more than a little presumptuous in my opinion.

No.

I am here to discuss the evidence and learn. What is your opinion about the evidence posted? I'm interested.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 14, 2018, 03:48:49 AM
Okay, Colin, I removed my Escape from 6th Floor theory to start a new thread  :)


I will try stay on topic of 3 Stooges and why BRW changed his story.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 03:58:01 AM
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Another peculiar thing is the timing of BRW leaving the 6th floor and the South EAST window rifle gunman reaching the SE window.


BRW WC testimony suggests that Harold Norman and James Jarman are ALREADY AT THEIR WINDOWS facing Elm st on the the 5th floor, when BRW got off the East elevator he took down from 6th to 5th floor, and then BRW walked up to them.

This de facto means that a SE window gunman would have had to be moving boxes, stacking them, in the SN while Harold Norman is right below.

A 6th floor gunman would have to hide on the 7th floor staircase to have been able to hear when the elevator is used by BRW, to know when to go back on the 6th floor. But he still would not know for certain until he actually moves to have LOS to the SE corner SN, and that places him getting there only AFTER Harold Norman is in place at his 5th floor window right below the SN.

How did Harold Norman not hear any of this activity, of the shooter right above him moving around  boxes across the floor?


Zeon,
Williams testimony re leaving the 6th floor.....

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

So he just left......seems he had an some notion that someone might be on the 5th and when he got there Norman and Jarman were already there.


Don't get distracted by the gunman having to move many boxes. The SN was largely assembled by the floor-laying crew.

All we know is that the motorcade was due to pass the building about 12.25pm. It was running late and Norman and Jarman decided to go to the 5th floor around 12.20 or so. Williams vacated the SN about 12.25 leaving his unfinished chicken behind. The gunman was seen in that position moment later.

After the shots the only significant sounds reported by those on the 5th floor related to the rifle firing......shots and shells dropping etc. No footsteps or elevator movements.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 05:01:43 AM
Some further information to assist those in their deliberations. Williams had only worked for the TSBD since September and had been recently transferred from the other warehouse. Jarman did not even know his surname when his statement was taken. Williams was taken to the DPD after the shots.....likely between 1.30 and 2pm. This was before Oswald was around the time Oswald was arrested. He may have known Oswald was missing from the building at the time he was taken to give a statement.

While at the station Oswald was brought in and Williams was aware of the importance of the 6th floor as the likely shooting location and that Oswald was arrested and a suspect. I have no evidence that Williams interacted with Norman and Jarman later that afternoon following his release. He did not have a phone at home and there is no evidence he knew home contact details for Norman and Jarman. Most likely his next opportunity would have been on Monday 25th at work.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2018, 06:14:59 AM
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(https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/three-stooges.jpg)

Why this silly game, all I see is question after question that can't possibly be answered to your satisfaction by anyone other than yourself?

Anyway, you clearly have already made up your mind and it's perfectly understandable why you're reluctant to reveal your alternate narrative but Man up and put your cards on the table and let's discuss that?

JohnM

WTF is it with these fanatical CTers. Who gives a fck about casual guesses by Jarmin etc.

FFS, eh?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 06:31:40 AM
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WTF is it with these fanatical CTers. Who gives a fck about casual guesses by Jarmin etc.

FFS, eh?

The long term lack of meaningful intelligent LN response is consistent behaviour. Why do you guys find these facts so threatening?

Anyway......

I can only assume that there was some conversation between the three that occurred some time after the shots but before Williams departure to give his statement......ie between 12.30 and 1.30 or so. They agreed to lie to authorities and indicate that he came with them to the 5th floor via the west elevator. Williams would be excluded from the 6th floor completely for some reason.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 06:37:21 AM
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Are you introducing a new rule on how people discuss issues here? That's more than a little presumptuous in my opinion.

Am I being presumptuous in anticipating you are here to meaningfully discuss the issues Steve? Or do you have other motivation?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2018, 07:25:45 AM
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The long term lack of meaningful intelligent LN response is consistent behaviour. Why do you guys find these facts so threatening?

Anyway......

I can only assume that there was some conversation between the three that occurred some time after the shots but before Williams departure to give his statement......ie between 12.30 and 1.30 or so. They agreed to lie to authorities and indicate that he came with them to the 5th floor via the west elevator. Williams would be excluded from the 6th floor completely for some reason.

You can remove me from your imaginary 'threatened LNer' list.

My conclusion is that this assassination was a last minute, random event probably carried out by an oppotunistic mentally-deranged X-marine who got somewhat lucky on the head shot. No reason why Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald would need help given the simple nature of poking a rifle out a window and landing a couple of rounds on Kennedy.

You're giving a lot of credit to 3 men you call 'stooges' to even have the 'chops' to be involved in— seemingly—some sort of overly-complicated Machiavellian scheme.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 10:01:32 AM
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You can remove me from your imaginary 'threatened LNer' list.

My conclusion is that this assassination was a last minute, random event probably carried out by an oppotunistic mentally-deranged X-marine who got somewhat lucky on the head shot. No reason why Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald would need help given the simple nature of poking a rifle out a window and landing a couple of rounds on Kennedy.

You're giving a lot of credit to 3 men you call 'stooges' to even have the 'chops' to be involved in— seemingly—some sort of overly-complicated Machiavellian scheme.

So you do not believe the men lied in face of the documented evidence that they did. Duly noted and nothing of substance to contributed to the original question posed in the thread from you.....as expected.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 14, 2018, 10:06:58 AM
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So you do not believe the men lied in face of the documented evidence that they did. Duly noted and nothing of substance to contributed to the original question posed in the thread from you.....as expected.

A lie means an intentional untruth though - is it clear that this was the case or were they confuse or unsure. Was their memory faulty?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 10:14:32 AM
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A lie means an intentional untruth though - is it clear that this was the case or were they confuse or unsure. Was their memory faulty?

So you are going with the theory that they both had the same faulty memory? That Williams went with them to the 5th floor in the elevator. Then some miracle of memory for both allows them to recall the "truth" about 5 months later. Really? Ever been on jury duty.....or a parent? Surely you guys can see BS when it’s in your face. I mean it’s the President who has been shot and you don’t remember how you met up with the guy who just happened to be where he was shot from minutes before.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 14, 2018, 10:37:38 AM
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So you are going with the theory that they both had the same faulty memory? That Williams went with them to the 5th floor in the elevator. Then some miracle of memory for both allows them to recall the "truth" about 5 months later. Really? Ever been on jury duty.....or a parent? Surely you guys can see BS when it’s in your face. I mean it’s the President who has been shot and you don’t remember how you met up with the guy who just happened to be where he was shot from minutes before.

No, I am questioning the use of the term lie.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 11:38:01 AM
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No, I am questioning the use of the term lie.

It is an intentional falsehood.....in this instance all three participated in the first few days of the investigation. We also have to include Williams reluctance to include the lunch details and time of arrival and departure in these deceptions.

Put yourself in their position and answer honestly. You are being asked about events minutes before the president's assassination. If you are unsure or confused would you say so or go with a story that is proven false months later. Your original story will match your friend's. You will both eventually have to recant. What statement do you make at the time?

Are they all confused and mistaken the same way?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 12:48:27 PM
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It is an intentional falsehood.....in this instance all three participated in the first few days of the investigation. We also have to include Williams reluctance to include the lunch details and time of arrival and departure in these deceptions.

Put yourself in their position and answer honestly. You are being asked about events minutes before the president's assassination. If you are unsure or confused would you say so or go with a story that is proven false months later. Your original story will match your friend's. You will both eventually have to recant. What statement do you make at the time?



Are they all confused and mistaken the same way?

According to your timeline the 3 stooges would have had to conspire to lie sometime before 1:30 PM on 11/22/63.

If Larry and Curly hadn't conspired with Moe to lie by that time, then Larry and Curly both wouldn't have said that Moe came up to the 5th floor with them.

So there's the answer to your question.

Now that the time of the Stooge conspiracy has been established is there a point you want to make ?

I'm pretty sure you don't think Moe was shooting at JFK, so I'm guessing you think Moe saw something on the 6th floor but the Stooges agreed to a conspiracy of silence to protect Moe ?

Sure would help if you quit beating around the bush and just spit out whatever theory you have.

Tell the forum what you think the stooges conspired to lie about, and more importantly why they conspired.

Took about three hours of back and forth the last time we had a detailed discussion regarding what you thought was in the 3 foot bag Saint Patsy had on 11/22/63 (rubber chicken, right ?).

Let's see if we can save some time and have you just state your theory this time.

Might actually be a good one.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 02:24:34 PM
You seem to be under some impression that my posts are intended to convince you or Bill or JohnM to change your view of events. Or that I even seek something from you that I have not heard of or thought of myself previously. That notion was abandoned long ago. I understand that the WC supporters that post here have an unshiftable belief. One that cannot accept variance from a specific script.  I still hold hope that someone interested in reasoned discussion/debate will offer some information that advances my understanding of the events that day. Perhaps the real motivation for my posts is for the 70 or so guest viewers of this thread at this time and that they too will be encouraged to question the official story.

They might find that much of the official version of events is not supported by the assembled evidence that was gathered.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Agee on September 14, 2018, 03:34:25 PM
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You seem to be under some impression that my posts are intended to convince you or Bill or JohnM to change your view of events. Or that I even seek something from you that I have not heard of or thought of myself previously. That notion was abandoned long ago. I understand that the WC supporters that post here have an unshiftable belief. One that cannot accept variance from a specific script.  I still hold hope that someone interested in reasoned discussion/debate will offer some information that advances my understanding of the events that day. Perhaps the real motivation for my posts is for the 70 or so guest viewers of this thread at this time and that they too will be encouraged to question the official story.

They might find that much of the official version of events is not supported by the assembled evidence that was gathered.

How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 03:40:45 PM
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "

That I can accept John. Sounds totally plausible. At that stage how was any of them to know that there would be a picture just after the shots that gave Williams an alibi.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Logan on September 14, 2018, 03:56:23 PM
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That I can accept John. Sounds totally plausible. At that stage how was any of them to know that there would be a picture just after the shots that gave Williams and alibi.
If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 14, 2018, 03:57:35 PM
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "

There were no shots fired from that window in the SE corner of the sixth floor......  Paul Ernst has done an excellent job of proving that a rifle could not have been fired from that site.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 04:12:41 PM
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If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.

Tend to agree Steve, how about lying for a workmate's whereabouts just before the shots?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Logan on September 14, 2018, 04:44:12 PM
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Tend to agree Steve, how about lying for a workmate's whereabouts just before the shots?
I can see them banding together.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 06:16:23 PM
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "

 Thumb1:

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If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 07:39:07 PM
So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?

Guess it's possible.

But keep in mind the three stooges were not close knit friends. In fact, they barely knew each other. Wasn't there something in this thread about BRW only transferring to the depository a month earlier and not knowing one of the other stooge's first name ?

Hard for me to envision a scenario where immediately after the shots are fired, Moe exclaims 'Holy crap, I was just up there 5 minutes ago, but you guys know I didn't do anything wrong, so will you lie for me and say I was with you the entire time' and the two other stooges readily agree to lie for Moe.

But maybe Moe yanked Curly by his hair and poked Larry in the eyes in order to convince them to lie.

Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2018, 09:29:49 PM
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So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?

Guess it's possible.

But keep in mind the three stooges were not close knit friends. In fact, they barely knew each other. Wasn't there something in this thread about BRW only transferring to the depository a month earlier and not knowing one of the other stooge's first name ?

Hard for me to envision a scenario where immediately after the shots are fired, Moe exclaims 'Holy crap, I was just up there 5 minutes ago, but you guys know I didn't do anything wrong, so will you lie for me and say I was with you the entire time' and the two other stooges readily agree to lie for Moe.

But maybe Moe yanked Curly by his hair and poked Larry in the eyes in order to convince them to lie.

Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).


Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).

What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 14, 2018, 09:37:34 PM
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Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).

What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?

What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?

You ask tough questions, Martin.....   

Gee Howie, Now you've  got to exhibit proof that the rusty old carcano was fired on 11/22.63.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 09:39:34 PM
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If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.

Thanks Steve, I think you've pretty much nailed how the Black employees in general would have felt in 1963 and specifically Williams being on the same floor as where shots were fired from, would have given him a reason to be very worried.

Shtiscared?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 09:48:30 PM
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What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?

All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/12/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2.jpg)

(https://ss100x.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/slide00221.jpg)

(https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/forensicmag.com/s3fs-public/bulletFB.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 09:49:57 PM
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What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?

Here's where he says "of course it was fired that day", throws in a few Saint Patsys, Your Clients, and Hail Marys, and expects that to suffice.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 09:51:56 PM
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All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.

How that's supposed to tell you it was fired that day is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2018, 09:56:24 PM
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All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/12/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2.jpg)

(https://ss100x.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/slide00221.jpg)

(https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/forensicmag.com/s3fs-public/bulletFB.jpg)

JohnM

You mean the bullet fragments that were allegedly found in the limo before th FBI arrived to examine the car and the bullet that was allegedly found on a stretcher at Parkland and which all have provenance issues?

And they prove that the rifle was fired on 22 November 1963, how exactly?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 09:56:32 PM
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How that's supposed to tell you it was fired that day is anyone's guess.

Well yeah, in the real world that's how crimes are solved.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2018, 10:02:56 PM
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Well yeah, in the real world that's how crimes are solved.

JohnM

With this answer it seems it will remain anybody´s guess…..
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 14, 2018, 10:03:06 PM
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All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/12/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2.jpg)

(https://ss100x.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/slide00221.jpg)

(https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/forensicmag.com/s3fs-public/bulletFB.jpg)

JohnM

All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.

But What if a person doesn't accept the verification from J. Edgar Hoover's " Extra Special" Agents???...   Wasn't Hoover the guy who basically said....We've got to pin this on that dead sucker Lee Harvey Oswald and convince the American public that he was the killer, and he had no motive, and no  accomplices.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:04:13 PM
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You mean the bullet fragments that were allegedly found in the limo before th FBI arrived to examine the car and the bullet that was allegedly found on a stretcher at Parkland and which all have provenance issues?

And they prove that the rifle was fired on 22 November 1963, how exactly?

We also have the damage inside the Limo of a dent in the steel frame and a hole in the windscreen which had a good chance of being created by the two fragments above.

(https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/New-photo-9.jpg)

(http://the-puzzle-palace.com/CE349.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 10:04:46 PM
Robert Frazier lined the marks up in his mind because they didn't line up under the microscope.

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:06:41 PM
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With this answer it seems it will remain anybody´s guess…..

If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 10:06:55 PM
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We also have the damage inside the Limo of a dent in the steel frame and a hole in the windscreen which had a good chance of being created by the two fragments above.

And by "good chance" he means wild-ass guess.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 10:07:52 PM
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If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.

The evidence that doesn't actually support the claims you are making about it?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:09:03 PM
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Robert Frazier lined the marks up in his mind because they didn't line up under the microscope.

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)

We have an experts opinion on one hand and on the other you have,....nothing.

Try again!

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:10:07 PM
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The evidence that doesn't actually support the claims you are making about it?

Yeah whatever, go away Troll!

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2018, 10:13:06 PM
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If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.

JohnM

I am not suggesting anything and will gladly rely on properly authenticated evidence without provenance issues and wild guesses..

Got any?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2018, 10:14:39 PM
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Yeah whatever, go away Troll!

JohnM

Finding it difficult to come up with credible answers to reasonable questions?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:16:59 PM
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And by "good chance" he means wild-ass guess.

No, analysing the evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion will never be just a "wild-ass" guess.
We have two large fragments found in the Limo and we have the results of two objects impacting the interior of the Limo, do the math!

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:20:31 PM
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Finding it difficult to come up with credible answers to reasonable questions?

What's reasonable about you again implying without a shred of evidence that yet more evidence was illegally planted?

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 10:31:24 PM
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What's reasonable about you again implying without a shred of evidence that yet more evidence was illegally planted?

Says the guy without a shred of evidence that C2766 was fired that day.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 14, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
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What's reasonable about you again implying without a shred of evidence that yet more evidence was illegally planted?

JohnM


Other than in your paranoid mind, how am I implying any such thing?

Do you disagree, John, that evidence has to be authenticated and without provenance issue before it can be considered valid?

Or are you just trying to shift the burden of proof again?

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No, analysing the evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion will never be just a "wild-ass" guess.
We have two large fragments found in the Limo and we have the results of two objects impacting the interior of the Limo, do the math!

JohnM


Except for the fact that you can not demonstrate with any kind of certainty that the two fragments were indeed found in the limo, you might have a point.

As it stands, your conclusion is anything but reasonable and indeed just a wild guess.

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We have an experts opinion on one hand and on the other you have,....nothing.

Try again!

JohnM

We have an experts opinion on one hand

Yeah right.....

Mr. EISENBERG - But in your opinion the marks on the left are the same as the marks on the right?
Mr. FRAZIER - The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns line up.
Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind , even though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope.
Mr. McCLOY - They are not lined up in the microscope because there is mutilation on the fragment?
Mr. EISENBERG - Yes, sir.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
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We have an experts opinion on one hand

Yeah right.....

Mr. EISENBERG - But in your opinion the marks on the left are the same as the marks on the right?
Mr. FRAZIER - The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns line up.
Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind , even though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope.
Mr. McCLOY - They are not lined up in the microscope because there is mutilation on the fragment?
Mr. EISENBERG - Yes, sir.

This is why nobody wants to debate you Martin, you have evidence presented that for obvious reasons cannot be photographed and your reply is "Yeah right", you aren't after the truth, you just want to believe in some massive conspiracy that somehow in your mind isn't that massive, go figure.

JohnM


Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 10:48:46 PM
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Says the guy without a shred of evidence that C2766 was fired that day.

Huh? Are you joking, the recovered fragments in Kennedy's Limo exclusively matched Oswald's rifle.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 10:59:30 PM
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Huh? Are you joking, the recovered fragments in Kennedy's Limo exclusively matched Oswald's rifle.

"Oswald's rifle".  LOL.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)
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Except for the fact that you can not demonstrate with any kind of certainty that the two fragments were indeed found in the limo, you might have a point.

Not to mention, it's not like those fragments were timestamped by the rifle they came out of...
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 11:00:44 PM
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This is why nobody wants to debate you Martin,

You never want to debate those who expose your logical fallacies.  Understandably so.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 14, 2018, 11:30:58 PM
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "

 Thumb1:

That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 14, 2018, 11:39:01 PM
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Thumb1:
That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.

Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?

Lots of examples one can think of where they could have implicated Oswald more directly.


Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 14, 2018, 11:42:09 PM
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Junior Jarman
From Jarman's Affidavit 11/23/63

At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember).

FBI interview 11/24/63

No mention of the ascent to the 5th floor just that Williams and Norman were with him at the time of the motorcade.

SS interview 12/2/63

"After eating lunch Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor to watch the President pass by."

FBI interview 1/14/64
"He said that he and the other two boys (Norman and Williams) ate lunch on the first floor around 12 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade.

Harold Norman
FBI interview 11/26/63

As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

SS interview and Affidavit 12/4/63

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."

FBI interview 3/18/64

He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appear that he felt the shots occurred at this time.

Williams also changed his version of events on multiple occasions. When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?

Well done Colin. You put forward an idea which seems to have teased out some agreement between opposing sides here. That certainly deserves congratulations.
 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 11:50:57 PM
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"Oswald's rifle".  LOL.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)
Not to mention, it's not like those fragments were timestamped by the rifle they came out of...

Quote
"Oswald's rifle".  LOL.

YAWN!

Oswald ordered the rifle.
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.
Oswald's rifle had fibers which matched Oswald's arrest shirt.
Oswald's prints were found on the rifle.
Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
Oswald lied about putting his package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
Oswald lied about the contents of the package.

And your best reply is "LOL"? No wonder your side is losing badly.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 11:58:40 PM
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And your best reply is "LOL"? No wonder your side is losing badly.

Where -- in your dreams?

Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence?  Again?

Quote
Oswald ordered the rifle.

Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.

Quote
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.

Still unproven.

Quote
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.

This is supposed to show that he owned it?

Quote
Oswald's rifle had fibers which matched Oswald's arrest shirt.

Which couldn't be matched to any specific shirt.

Quote
Oswald's prints were found on the rifle.

Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.

Quote
Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.

This is supposed to show that he owned the rifle?

Quote
Oswald lied about putting his package on the back seat of Frazier's car.

This is supposed to show that he owned a rifle that you cannot demonstrate was ever in a bag?

Quote
Oswald lied about the contents of the package.

Circular.  You can't prove what was in the package.

"Oswald's rifle".

LOL.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 14, 2018, 11:58:50 PM
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True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.

Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?

Lots of examples one can think of where they could have implicated Oswald more directly.

I don't see why they would of their own volition have made up incriminating stuff about Oswald. Could the cops or FBI have pressured them into saying such stuff? Yes, no doubt in my mind. Seeing as the employees didn't say such stuff says to me that they weren't pressured to do so.

It would be interesting if any of the three still alive had this scenario (the lie to distance themselves from the 6th floor) put to him.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 12:01:59 AM
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I don't see why they would of their own volition have made up incriminating stuff about Oswald.

Who said they lied to incriminate Oswald?  They lied to save BRW's skin.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 15, 2018, 12:11:44 AM
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Who said they lied to incriminate Oswald?  They lied to save BRW's skin.

Read Steve Galbraith's post that I responded to.

"... couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera."

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:18:04 AM
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Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?


I reckon that Williams did in fact see Oswald in the sniper's nest because why would he go up to the 6th floor to sit with his mates and just plonk himself down in the middle of the floor without checking all the windows?

When Williams went down to the 5th floor he obviously went to the windows directly below the sniper's nest, so what stopped him doing the same on the floor above?

(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/TSBD_Seconds_After_Shooting.jpg)

When confronted with the following wall of boxes, would Williams simply shout out to his friends and after not hearing an answer just move on or would he have a peek to see if his friends were there and perhaps just horsing around?

(https://s15.postimg.cc/h1ayrikgr/snipers_nest.jpg)

And from the following exchange from Williams testimony, after Ford heard Williams explain what happened on the 6th floor Ford immediately attempt to associate Williams with breaking the law, which could indicate that they thought that Williams was lying?

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?


JohnM

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 15, 2018, 12:22:46 AM
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I don't see why they would of their own volition have made up incriminating stuff about Oswald. Could the cops or FBI have pressured them into saying such stuff? Yes, no doubt in my mind. Seeing as the employees didn't say such stuff says to me that they weren't pressured to do so.

It would be interesting if any of the three still alive had this scenario (the lie to distance themselves from the 6th floor) put to him.
I believe all of them are dead. I know Harold Norman died in 1994.

Here is, apparently, Norman as seen in the Hughes film waving to the President about 5-7 seconds before the shots. He's right below the sniper's nest. Scroll to the 1:20 mark.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:25:46 AM
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Where -- in your dreams?

Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence?  Again?

Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.

Still unproven.

This is supposed to show that he owned it?

Which couldn't be matched to any specific shirt.

Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.

This is supposed to show that he owned the rifle?

This is supposed to show that he owned a rifle that you cannot demonstrate was ever in a bag?

Circular.  You can't prove what was in the package.

"Oswald's rifle".

LOL.

Since you think we are in court let's see where that goes.

I present an endless list of corroborated physical evidence and expert eyewitness testimony.

And in return you have no experts and rely only your obviously biased defence attorney's opinion to refute my mountain of evidence. Far out Brussel sprout!

JohnM 1
JohnI 0

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 15, 2018, 12:27:21 AM
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Read Steve Galbraith's post that I responded to.

"... couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera."
And lying about Oswald - implicating him - helps save Williams. Again, IF there were powerful forces conspiring to frame Oswald then it seems obvious that they could intimidate a couple of poor black men into saying what they want about Oswald.

It's fascinating reading the people who contort themselves to exonerate Oswald then turn around and with the flimsiest of reasons point to others as the shooter.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:29:54 AM
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Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence?  Again?


Oswald ordered the rifle.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lBbF8H1R3sc/UePWFAvjvMI/AAAAAAAAvKY/5A611hBQNwQ/s1600/Rifle-Documents.jpg)

Oswald possessed the rifle.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HPQnsOqQfnY/Tmel8ssSYOI/AAAAAAAAhTc/hQBiAfX1ZpA/s1600/Oswald-Backyard-Photos.jpg)

Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work with Oswald's prints.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SsnIeaAWFfo/hqdefault.jpg)

(https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0158b.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:34:05 AM
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Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.


It's a more than just 2 block letters, a lot more.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/cklyciix7/cadigan_ex3a.jpg)

Mr. EISENBERG. You can refer to your photographs.
Mr. CADIGAN. The enlarged photograph, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, contains both handwriting and hand printing which was compared with the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. I compared both the handwriting and the hand printing to determine whether or not the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics was present in both the questioned and the known documents. I found many characteristics, some of which I would point out.
On the order blank, in the "A. Hidell" and in the wording "Dallas Texas" which constitutes a part of the return address, the letter "A" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is made in the same manner as the capital letter "A" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The letter is formed with a short straight stroke beginning about halfway up the left side. The top of it is peaked or pointed. The right side is straight, and is shorter than the initial stroke. The capital letter "D" in Dallas is characterized by a staff or downstroke slanting at about a 30° angle. The lower loop in some instances is closed. In the word "Dallas" the loop is closed, and the body of the letter ends in a rounded loop formation. The same characteristic I found in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, and 6 as well as other exhibits. The word "Texas" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A is characterized with the letter "x" made in an unusual manner in that the writer, after completing the body of the letter, makes an abrupt change of motion to the following letter "a." This same characteristic I observed in the known standard on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 9, and 4.
In the address portion of the envelope, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, appears the word "Dept." I noticed here, again, the same formation of the capital "D." In addition, the entire word "Dept" appears in the known standards on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. The characteristics I would point out here are in the letter "p" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, where the letter is made with a relatively long narrow staff, and the body of the letter is a rounded shape which projects above the staff. The letter "t" ends abruptly in a downstroke. In the hand-printing appearing in the exhibit marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3--A, the wording "Dallas, Texas" contains a number of the same characteristics as Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, where the same wording appears, and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 7 and 8. The writer uses a script-type "D," and prints the other letters in the word "Dallas." The "A " again is made in a similar way to the "A" in "A. Hidell," with a beginning of the downstroke approximately three-quarters of the way up the left side of the stroke. The letter is relatively narrow, and the right-hand side of the letter is straight. In the double "L" combinations there is a curve in the lower portion of the letter. The "S" has a flat top, slanting at approximately a 30-degree angle. In the word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A the writer has used a small "e" following the letter "T." The same characteristics will be noted on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 7, and 8.
Additionally, I noted that in addition to the shape of the letters themselves, the relative heights of the letters, the spacing between the letters, the slant of the letters in both the know and questioned documents are the same.
On Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, in the portion for address, appears the notation "P.O. Box 2915," and this same wording appears on Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, and on No. 7 and No. 8 except for the "P.O." portion. Here, again, I observed the same formation of the individual letters; the spacing, the style, the slant of the writings in both questioned and known were observed to be the same.
The tail of the "5" is made with a relatively long stroke and the same characteristic appears in the known standards. In the hand printed name "A. Hidell," on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, another characteristic I noted was the very small-sized "i" in the name "Hidell." The writer makes this letter very short in contrast to the other letters in the name. This same characteristic I observed on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, the passport application. With reference to the "1" dot on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the name "Hidell," in the return portion, the dot is relatively high and between the body of the letter and the following letter "d." In the portion of the word "Chicago"---of the name "Chicago"--in the address portion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, the "i" dot is between the "o" and the "g" in "Chicago" and is well above the line of writing. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 4 I observed the same displacement of the "i" dot. In some instances, it is slightly to the right of the body of the letter, as in the word "citizenship" in the sixth line from the bottom, whereas in the word "direct" in the ninth line from the bottom the "i" dot is displaced one and a half letters to the right.
Based upon the combination of these individual characteristics which I have pointed out, as well as others, I reached the opinion that the handwriting and handprinting on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A were written by Lee Harvey Oswald, the writer of the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10.


(https://s15.postimg.cc/oj6cskx3f/cadigan_exhibit_4.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/8m7kw7cij/cadigan_ex_5.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/h3736r6t7/cadigan_ex_6.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/v9mu1z9yj/cadigan_ex_7.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/yghdlkzjf/cadigan_ex_8.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/en59t5ot7/cadigan_ex_9.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 12:38:46 AM
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Since you think we are in court let's see where that goes.

I don't think we're in court.  Your contrived list isn't evidence that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 12:40:13 AM
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And lying about Oswald - implicating him - helps save Williams. Again, IF there were powerful forces conspiring to frame Oswald then it seems obvious that they could intimidate a couple of poor black men into saying what they want about Oswald.

Funny, I read the OP several times and see nothing about "powerful forces".
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 12:42:46 AM
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Oswald ordered the rifle.

Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald ordered the rifle.

Quote
Oswald possessed the rifle.

Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald possessed the rifle.

Quote
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work with Oswald's prints.

Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald's prints were on the rifle.

Will "Mytton" ever tell the truth about the evidence?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:48:51 AM
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I don't think we're in court.  Your contrived list isn't evidence that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court.

Quote
I don't think we're in court.

Then why are you so focused on only overturning the mountain of evidence against Oswald?

Quote
Your contrived list isn't evidence that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court.

Let me correct that for you

"Your irrefutable list isn't evidence to me that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court."

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
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It's a more than just 2 block letters, a lot more.

I see some arrows and testimony that mentions (for the order blank itself) only a letter A, a letter D (which by the way is different on the envelope), and a letter x.  So, my bad -- unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of three block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon.  From microfilm that is conveniently "missing".

Edit: actually if you read it again, it's ambiguous but it looks like he's only referring to the envelope when he talks about the "A", "D", and "x".
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 12:51:47 AM
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Then why are you so focused on only overturning the mountain of evidence against Oswald?

False claims and rhetoric that isn't actually evidence don't need to be "overturned".  They need to be discarded.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:54:42 AM
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Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald ordered the rifle.

Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald possessed the rifle.

Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald's prints were on the rifle.

Will "Mytton" ever tell the truth about the evidence?

Again with the worthless personal opinion, either you can refute my powerful evidence or you can't and so far it's clear to all that your presentation of refutation is severely lacking.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:59:47 AM
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I see some arrows and testimony that mentions (for the order blank itself) only a letter A, a letter D (which by the way is different on the envelope), and a letter x.  So, my bad -- unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of three block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon.  From microfilm that is conveniently "missing".

Quote
So, my bad

You've been corrected on this on numerous occasions yet you still persist with the 2 letter nonsense, but that defines what you are Iacoletti, Dishonest.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 01:00:01 AM
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Again with the worthless personal opinion, either you can refute my powerful evidence or you can't and so far it's clear to all that your presentation of refutation is severely lacking.

I hate to break the news to you, but adding pictures that don't actually demonstrate what you are claiming is not "powerful evidence" of anything.  It's dishonesty.

 :D
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 15, 2018, 01:00:50 AM
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You've been corrected on this on numerous occasions yet you still persist with the 2 letter nonsense, but that defines what you are Iacoletti, Dishonest.

See my edit.  He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 01:04:41 AM
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I hate to break the news to you, but adding pictures that don't actually demonstrate what you are claiming is not "powerful evidence" of anything.  It's dishonesty.

 :D

You've truly lost it John, how is presenting a long list of corroborated evidence being dishonest?

If you want you can present the same evidence to an acknowledged expert and we can see where that takes us but you must learn that your personal opinion means nothing.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 01:09:57 AM
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See my edit.  He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.

Quote
See my edit.

Wonderful, you get a chance to edit your replies but you don't give the same consideration to eyewitnesses.

Quote
He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.

It's one piece of evidence and it will always be one piece of evidence and btw we haven't even got to the money order yet, your day is about to get a helluva lot worse! Muhahaha!

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 01:22:11 AM
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See my edit.  He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.

Oh by the way, the HSCA team of experts came to the same conclusion.

Mr. MCNALLY - Yes, F-504, and the money order is F-509.
Mr. KLEIN - Are these blowups fair and accurate representations of the documents examined by the panel?
Mr. MCNALLY - They are.
Mr. KLEIN - Using the blowups, would you explain why the panel reached its conclusion?
Mr. MCNALLY - We examined and compared the writings on the microfilm reproduction with the original postal money order issued as payable to Klein's Sporting Goods. The same process, of course, was involved, an examination and comparison of the general writing characteristics which appear on this microfilmed reproduction, versus the writing which appears on the U.S. postal money order. The writing pattern on both of these documents is the same, the same degree of skill, the same slant pattern. The writing has a continuity and a cohesion, a continuous flow in the formation of "Hidell", "Dallas, Texas," "Klein's," "Chicago, Illinois." It flows right along in the same manner, as we have in the writing flow on the postal money order. The individual letter designs that occur in the writing of the name and the address and the names and addresses on the microfilm reproduction and the writing of the various letters on the postal money order correspond. In both instances on the microfilmed reproduction here we have a parallel, the writing of "Hidell" here in the top of the microfilm and the "A. Hidell," which occurs over here on the postal money order. The writing construction in both instances is the same, just a slight variation in the "H" in "Hidell" in the microfilm reproduction, but the rest of the writing conforms to the writing "A. Hidell" on the U.S. postal money order. In the writing of "Dallas, Texas," this particular writing pattern here in the upper left-hand corner agreed with the writing of "Dallas, Texas," over here on the U.S. postal money order. The variation occurring here is that in the return address on the postal money order a small "t" has been used versus a capital "T" utilized down here. In this "Texas" here in the writing of the "x-a-s" right in this portion here just following the "x" there is a slight hitch almost like a small undotted "i". That same information occurs over here just before the "a" here a little hitch in the writing pattern. The overall writing on both the microfilm and on the postal money order correspond to the extent that we came to the conclusion both were written by the same individual, again with that caveat that this is a reproduction. As a matter of fact, this if from a microfilm, and it has been blown up from the microfilm itself so that it lacks clarity and detail. But the impression gotten from examining this particular document and comparing it with the writing of the original document, the postal money order, is that the writing flows. The line quality of that on this document and that on the postal money order corresponds; the letter designs correspond. There is no significant difference between the writing on the microfilm and the writing we have in the money order or the writing we have here, for instance, on the employment application. Further, the hand printing on this particular form here, which was laid over the envelope when it was recorded, this hand printing, "A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Texas," corresponds to that which we have in this employment application and also a letter which backed up this employment application, specifically some writing in the lower left-hand corner of that letter. We did conclude again (with that slight caveat) that the writing of the microfilm in both the script writing here and the hand print here were written by the same individual who wrote out the postal money order and the employment application.
Mr. KLEIN - Was there any evidence to indicate that either of these documents were forged or altered?
Mr. MCNALLY - From the examinations that could be made, absolutely no evidence.


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/fd/f0/22fdf0b4e7a3d42c0aa377bff8bccc59.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 15, 2018, 01:22:35 AM
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Where -- in your dreams?

Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence?  Again?

Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.

Still unproven.

This is supposed to show that he owned it?

Which couldn't be matched to any specific shirt.

Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.

This is supposed to show that he owned the rifle?

This is supposed to show that he owned a rifle that you cannot demonstrate was ever in a bag?

Circular.  You can't prove what was in the package.

"Oswald's rifle".

LOL.

Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.


That smudge that Detective Day imagined to be a "Palm Print" was lifted from the foregrip of the carcano  in the TSBD at about 1:45 pm that afternoon.  Reporter Tom Alyea watched as Day lifted that smudge and place the cellophane tape on a index card, and then scribble the pertinent information on the card.    That card was listed as item number 14 on the evidence inventory list for midnight 11/22/63.   The FBI received that card on Saturday 11/23/63 and examined it....the FBI report said that the smudge was useless for identification purposes.   
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 01:31:40 AM
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Thanks Steve, I think you've pretty much nailed how the Black employees in general would have felt in 1963 and specifically Williams being on the same floor as where shots were fired from, would have given him a reason to be very worried.

Shtiscared?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)

JohnM

Do I detect a subtle change from initial dismissal of the idea the 3 decided to protect BRW? Now it becomes plausible.....not just confusion of faulty memory.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 01:34:58 AM
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Thumb1:

That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.

Tend to agree......question is how far would you go? If you were BRW as opposed to JJ and HN.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 01:44:16 AM
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True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.

Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?

Lots of examples one can think of where they could have implicated Oswald more directly.

Agree.....I believe that this rules out the massive conspiracy theory. How easy to get Williams to say he saw Oswald on the 6th floor......but Oswald is dead by Sunday......is he required to change his statement after that event diminished? However I do believe Givens was pressured to change and place Oswald on the 6th floor after noon.

Also given the fact that Williams was being questioned at the time Oswald was brought in.....I tend to think he did not see him on the 6th floor before he left to join HN and JJ. Does anyone believe that BRW would protect Oswald in his initial statement?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 01:45:47 AM
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Well done Colin. You put forward an idea which seems to have teased out some agreement between opposing sides here. That certainly deserves congratulations.
 Thumb1:

Thankyou Steve.....appreciated.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 01:46:41 AM
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Do I detect a subtle change from initial dismissal of the idea the 3 decided to protect BRW? Now it becomes plausible.....not just confusion of faulty memory.

C'mon Colin we have debated this before, correct me if I'm wrong but where this is going is that you believe that Williams actually saw the killer and that's why they all lied, and as I remember I agreed with you and said that Williams must have seen Oswald and then you disagreed that it was Oswald, am I right?

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2018, 01:50:41 AM
If it was  just Norman and Jarman returning  to the 5th floor without BR Williams having been with them, then why do Norman and Jarman leave a window space between them, which eventually was the window BR Williams is at, next to Norman, when the Dillard photo is taken about 15 sec posts shots?


 
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 01:57:31 AM
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C'mon Colin we have debated this before, correct me if I'm wrong but where this is going is that you believe that Williams actually saw the killer and that's why they all lied, and as I remember I agreed with you and said that Williams must have seen Oswald and then you disagreed that it was Oswald, am I right?

JohnM

So your initial post in the thread was disingenuous. Only you know why you would do that. I do remember you doing something to that effect. That was on the old forum before the crash and no longer available. I am merely presenting evidence and attempting to see where it might lead. You believe the likely scenario is that Williams left after seeing Oswald. If you believe Williams saw Oswald do you really think he would lie to protect him at the time he was already in custody?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 02:09:48 AM
I see that Trolletti is up to his usual trolling antics.

Let's get back to the point of Colin's thread -- the three stooges conspiring to lie to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor before the shots were fired.

I think it would be accurate to say that the stooge conspiracy to lie about BRW's whereabouts would have had to be hatched on the 5th floor within minutes of the shots being fired.

What other time, when else could it have occurred ?

When were the stooges together again between the time the shots were fired and their initial statements were given ?

As I mentioned earlier, it seems the Stooges were not close friends. BRW was only employed at the TSBD for about a month. One of the Stooges didn't even know the first name of one of his supposed Stooge accomplices.

Sorry, I'm just not buying that within minutes of the shots being fired the stooges were conspiring to lie about BRW being on the 5th floor the entire time.

The two stooges that were actually on the 5th floor before 12:25 PM would be endangering themselves by lying/vouching for a BRW they barely knew in a conspiracy that had to be hatched within moments of the shots ringing out.

The Stooge conspiracy isn't impossible but seems unlikely to me.

And as I mentioned earlier the Stooge conspiracy doesn't provide an iota of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy, nor does it provide any evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.

Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 15, 2018, 02:19:57 AM
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You've truly lost it John, how is presenting a long list of corroborated evidence being dishonest?

If you want you can present the same evidence to an acknowledged expert and we can see where that takes us but you must learn that your personal opinion means nothing.

JohnM

John,

I think you would do all the members of this forum a big favor by looking up the word "corroborated"....

You seem to have no clue about what it means.... I have a dictionary which I will gladly let you use, if that helps..
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:21:06 AM
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Well yeah, in the real world that's how crimes are solved.

JohnM

No, they aren't.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:22:24 AM
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We also have the damage inside the Limo of a dent in the steel frame and a hole in the windscreen which had a good chance of being created by the two fragments above.

(https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/New-photo-9.jpg)

(http://the-puzzle-palace.com/CE349.gif)

JohnM

Only in your dreams.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:24:38 AM
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If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.

JohnM

You ignore the evidence and call for its censure.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 15, 2018, 02:26:01 AM
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I see that Trolletti is up to his usual trolling antics.

Let's get back to the point of Colin's thread -- the three stooges conspiring to lie to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor before the shots were fired.

I think it would be accurate to say that the stooge conspiracy to lie about BRW's whereabouts would have had to be hatched on the 5th floor within minutes of the shots being fired.

What other time, when else could it have occurred ?

When were the stooges together again between the time the shots were fired and their initial statements were given ?

As I mentioned earlier, it seems the Stooges were not close friends. BRW was only employed at the TSBD for about a month. One of the Stooges didn't even know the first name of one of his supposed Stooge accomplices.

Sorry, I'm just not buying that within minutes of the shots being fired the stooges were conspiring to lie about BRW being on the 5th floor the entire time.

The two stooges that were actually on the 5th floor before 12:25 PM would be endangering themselves by lying/vouching for a BRW they barely knew in a conspiracy that had to be hatched within moments of the shots ringing out.

The Stooge conspiracy isn't impossible but seems unlikely to me.

And as I mentioned earlier the Stooge conspiracy doesn't provide an iota of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy, nor does it provide any evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.

Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.

Carry on.

Why don't you try answering a question for once instead of posting useless unhinged rants?


A few pages back I asked you a simple question, which you never answered. Why is that?

Here is the question again;

Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).

What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?


Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:29:56 AM
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No, analysing the evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion will never be just a "wild-ass" guess.
We have two large fragments found in the Limo and we have the results of two objects impacting the interior of the Limo, do the math!

JohnM

It was never shown that there were two fragments in the limousine when it was still in Dallas. Just out of curiosity
- which bullet would they have come from?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 02:30:52 AM
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I see that Trolletti is up to his usual trolling antics.

Let's get back to the point of Colin's thread -- the three stooges conspiring to lie to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor before the shots were fired.

I think it would be accurate to say that the stooge conspiracy to lie about BRW's whereabouts would have had to be hatched on the 5th floor within minutes of the shots being fired.

What other time, when else could it have occurred ?

When were the stooges together again between the time the shots were fired and their initial statements were given ?

As I mentioned earlier, it seems the Stooges were not close friends. BRW was only employed at the TSBD for about a month. One of the Stooges didn't even know the first name of one of his supposed Stooge accomplices.

Sorry, I'm just not buying that within minutes of the shots being fired the stooges were conspiring to lie about BRW being on the 5th floor the entire time.

The two stooges that were actually on the 5th floor before 12:25 PM would be endangering themselves by lying/vouching for a BRW they barely knew in a conspiracy that had to be hatched within moments of the shots ringing out.

The Stooge conspiracy isn't impossible but seems unlikely to me.

And as I mentioned earlier the Stooge conspiracy doesn't provide an iota of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy, nor does it provide any evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.

Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.

Carry on.

Howard, thankyou for trying to keep the thread on the rails. As far as I have been able to determine the chance to conspire has to be limited to the time prior to the initial interview by Jarman the next day. I am unsure about their ability to discuss events once they descended via the stairs. It appears once they attempted to leave the building they were separated to some extent. In a short time Williams is taken to the DPD as shown in JohnM's previous post.  It is possible that it was not in the immediate aftermath but it would require Williams to contact Jarman at some point after he was released by the DPD following his statement. I assume this to be after about 3pm or so on the Friday.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:34:57 AM
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YAWN!

Oswald ordered the rifle.
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.
Oswald's rifle had fibers which matched Oswald's arrest shirt.
Oswald's prints were found on the rifle.
Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
Oswald lied about putting his package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
Oswald lied about the contents of the package.

And your best reply is "LOL"? No wonder your side is losing badly.

JohnM

Since you "rely" on the evidence, why not cite it for each of your claims?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
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Again with the worthless personal opinion, either you can refute my powerful evidence or you can't and so far it's clear to all that your presentation of refutation is severely lacking.

JohnM

Powerful evidence. 🤣😀

You have presented nothing but unsupported claims from the WCR.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 02:47:45 AM
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So your initial post in the thread was disingenuous. Only you know why you would do that. I do remember you doing something to that effect. That was on the old forum before the crash and no longer available. I am merely presenting evidence and attempting to see where it might lead. You believe the likely scenario is that Williams left after seeing Oswald. If you believe Williams saw Oswald do you really think he would lie to protect him at the time he was already in custody?

Quote
So your initial post in the thread was disingenuous.

Hardly, I expected you to remember what was previously said but it seems you have a memory like a sieve.

Quote
Only you know why you would do that.

Because it's always the same debate but you just use different window dressings.

Quote
I do remember you doing something to that effect.

Ok, finally some acknowledgement.

Quote
That was on the old forum before the crash and no longer available.

Yeah the crash caused by the government because you were all getting too close to the truth! Yay Truffer!

Quote
I am merely presenting evidence and attempting to see where it might lead.

No worries, all roads lead to Oswald.

Quote
You believe the likely scenario is that Williams left after seeing Oswald.

Yes, it makes sense that Williams would have checked the windows where his friends were likely to be.

Quote
If you believe Williams saw Oswald do you really think he would lie to protect him at the time he was already in custody?

Are you serious?
Yes of course, this was assassinating a President and who knows what connections Oswald had and under the circumstances it's naive to think otherwise.

JohnM

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 02:50:46 AM
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Powerful evidence. 🤣😀

You have presented nothing but unsupported claims from the WCR.

Again I present evidence and you lot have nothing to refute me with, so out come the same old accusations, time to wake up Rob and smell my sweet scent of victory!

Btw think about this, why setup Oswald with the name Hidell, the only person that would do that would be Oswald.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 02:53:54 AM
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Howard, thankyou for trying to keep the thread on the rails. As far as I have been able to determine the chance to conspire has to be limited to the time prior to the initial interview by Jarman the next day. I am unsure about their ability to discuss events once they descended via the stairs. It appears once they attempted to leave the building they were separated to some extent. In a short time Williams is taken to the DPD as shown in JohnM's previous post.  It is possible that it was not in the immediate aftermath but it would require Williams to contact Jarman at some point after he was released by the DPD following his statement. I assume this to be after about 3pm or so on the Friday.

Yep, seems likely the Stooge Conspiracy would have had to been hatched on the 5th floor because it's kind of a stretch to imagine them conspiring on the stairwell or after they left the building.

So the timeline for the Stooge Conspiracy doesn't add up for me, nor does Jarman and Norman agreeing to lie/vouch for a BRW they weren't close friends with.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 02:58:52 AM
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Sadly for you, the catalog number matched a 36" carbine.

No Rob wrong again, according to Kleins records the catalog number C20-T750 exactly matched a rifle with Serial number C2766, you know the same rifle with Oswald's prints that was found on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j2O-kIQp5Aw/Uppyyq6H3KI/AAAAAAAAxSI/G97X3C5lxOI/s690/Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg)
From DVP's site.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 03:21:39 AM
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Again I present evidence and you lot have nothing to refute me with, so out come the same old accusations, time to wake up Rob and smell my sweet scent of victory!

Btw think about this, why setup Oswald with the name Hidell, the only person that would do that would be Oswald.

JohnM

You clearly have no idea what the world "supporting" means if you think that you have presented evidence that supports your claims John. There is no supporting evidence for the claim that LHO used the Hidell alias. None.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 15, 2018, 03:24:36 AM
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You clearly have no idea what the world "supporting" means if you think that you have presented evidence that supports your claims John. There is no supporting evidence for the claim that LHO used the Hidell alias. None.

Your opinion over those of handwriting experts? It's a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 03:25:41 AM
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No Rob wrong again, according to Kleins records the catalog number C20-T750 exactly matched a rifle with Serial number C2766, you know the same rifle with Oswald's prints that was found on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j2O-kIQp5Aw/Uppyyq6H3KI/AAAAAAAAxSI/G97X3C5lxOI/s690/Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg)
From DVP's site.

JohnM

Wrong again John as the catalog number from the American Rifleman magazine matched a 36" carbine. End of story.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 03:29:05 AM
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There is no supporting evidence for the claim that LHO used the Hidell alias.

Please desist with your "supporting evidence" garbage because you're not fooling anyone.

Not only was all the Hidell handwriting matched to Oswald but he also had the Hidell ID in his wallet and the negative used to manufacture the ID was found in Oswald's possessions. Game Over Pal, game over!

(https://s15.postimg.cc/hjaplck2j/alek_hidell_id.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/ecg61kmq3/Cadigan_ex_20.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 03:29:30 AM
I would respectfully ask members to move discussion of the rifle purchase, ballistics etc to an appropriate thread.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 03:38:48 AM
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Wrong again John as the catalog number from the American Rifleman magazine matched a 36" carbine. End of story.

It's actually remarkably quite simple, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750, argue with those facts Rob and don't accuse me again of changing the Kleins ad, naughty naughty.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/5241xx1or/Riflead1.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 03:42:25 AM
To summarise the thoughts of those who responded to the OP so far. If I get the essence wrong please feel free to correct by memory is apparently somewhat sieve-like.

At this point only Howard feels that the proposal that the available evidence is not suggestive that the 3 witnesses did not collude in an attempt to protect Williams from the floor seats were associated with. I would point out that the evidence presented was available to the WC. Howard feels that it was simply a matter of some sort of common group mistake......sort of a reverse gorilla experiment effect where somehow a person is included in an event who wasn’t present.

JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.

The others who have posted are generally in agreement that Norman and Jarman would be inclined to help Williams by lying given the circumstances.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 03:56:36 AM
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JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.


What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 04:37:06 AM
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What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.

JohnM

Can you provide any evidence that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman? They were at the front of the building until about 12.20 and walked across Houston with Givens before changing their minds and heading for the 5th floor. Williams did claim eventually that Arce and Lovelady said that they might view the parade from the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 05:51:59 AM
While we wait for JohnM to substantiate his claim that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman here is some testimony relating to the events after the three moved to the west windows on the 5th floor.

Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.
Mr. BALL. How did you go down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?
Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.
Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?
Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner. Did you run down stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?
Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.
Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.
Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.
Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and--
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny-- they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.
Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.
Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.
Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.
Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Just a note that they didn’t immediately get all the men who had been on the 6th floor that day.

Those not taken to give affidavit were,

Oswald - not in building

Givens - not in building

Norman - in building but not taken

Frazier - presumably in building but not taken
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
Seems Bonnie Ray and Danny Arce we’re both sent to the TSBD a few weeks before the shooting to help lay the flooring.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you employed to do?
Mr. ARCE. Order filler.
Mr. BALL. What building did you work in?
Mr. ARCE. At the warehouse.
Mr. BALL. At Houston and Elm?
Mr. ARCE. No; that's on----
Mr. BALL. Which is this?
Mr. ARCE. That's the one behind it; directly behind the Texas School Book Depository at Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL. You worked there most of the time as an order filler?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever work over at the building at 411 Elm?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me and the other boy down there.
Mr. BALL. Who is the other boy?
Mr. ARCE. Bonnie Ray Williams
Mr. BALL. They sent you out to do what?
Mr. ARCE. Help lay out a floor on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. What date did they send you down there?
Mr. ARCE. Sir, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. October?
Mr. ARCE. I know I had been there about 4 weeks when all that happened; I believe 4 or 5 weeks. I am not too sure about that.
Mr. BALL. You mean 4 or 5 weeks before November 22, 1963?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Were you laying floor at that time?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the sixth when this happened.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 06:18:53 AM
Arce is asked about who was where at lunchtime......no mention of the agreement to return to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 06:24:25 AM
Truly recalling seeing Givens, Norman and Jarman just before the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 06:33:24 AM
So for all of those who think it entirely plausible that the three agreed to protect BRW, ie. everyone who has posted in the thread so far except Howard, when do you think the agreed to do so?

On the 5th floor before descending.

On the first floor, before Williams is taken to the DPD.

Or after his release about 3.30pm on Friday and before Jarman provides his affidavit on Saturday.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 06:39:45 AM
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Can you provide any evidence that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman? They were at the front of the building until about 12.20 and walked across Houston with Givens before changing their minds and heading for the 5th floor. Williams did claim eventually that Arce and Lovelady said that they might view the parade from the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

I can only provide the evidence of what Williams himself said, and that was he "thought that everybody was going to be on the 6th floor" and obviously everybody includes both Jarman and Norman.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 07:00:14 AM
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JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.

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What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.

JohnM

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I can only provide the evidence of what Williams himself said, and that was he "thought that everybody was going to be on the 6th floor" and obviously everybody includes both Jarman and Norman.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)

JohnM

Williams recalled Arce and Loveday mentioning the 6th floor. Assumes all his workmates will be there. Does that include all employees or the floor laying crew....who knows? You believe he saw one of them, Oswald, then decides to leave for the 5th floor on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below and the off chance some other workmates might be there. Is that better?


PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 07:24:13 AM
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Williams recalled Arce and Loveday mentioning the 6th floor. Assumes all his workmates will be there. Does that include all employees or the floor laying crew....who knows? You believe he saw one of them, Oswald, then decides to leave for the 5th floor on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below and the off chance some other workmates might be there. Is that better?


PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!

Quote
on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below

Not just noises but voices, look at where Norman and Jarman were and reportedly they were hanging out the windows to talk to each other, so if Williams was directly above in the sniper's nest then he would have been closer to Norman than Jarman was.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce480.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 07:41:30 AM
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Not just noises but voices, look at where Norman and Jarman were and reportedly they were hanging out the windows to talk to each other, so if Williams was directly above in the sniper's nest then he would have been closer to Norman than Jarman was.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce480.jpg)

JohnM

No mention of hearing voices......but maybe walking or window movement.

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

As he was directly above at the time at an open window, not at the 3rd or 4th set of windows from the east behind closed windows.....certainly possible.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 08:13:07 AM
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PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!

Agreed, the look on Williams face doesn't seem to jibe with the tone of his testimony.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)

Now I don't know how much evidence that Williams was aware of or what he had access to but it's interesting that Williams specifically pinpoints the SN window and without hesitation names Oswald as being in that window whereas neither Jarman or Norman said anything about Oswald, did Williams say Oswald because he knew beyond all doubt that it was in fact Oswald?

Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.


Btw if someone was firing at the President of the United States from the floor directly above, would you stay where you are and be as quiet as a mouse or would run across the floor and be closer to the elevator and stairs.

JohnM

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 08:18:51 AM
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No mention of hearing voices......but maybe walking or window movement.

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

As he was directly above at the time at an open window, not at the 3rd or 4th set of windows from the east behind closed windows.....certainly possible.

He does say "or something" which would have to be voices and these voices would help lead him to conclude that there were people down below.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 08:27:39 AM
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Agreed, the look on Williams face doesn't seem to jibe with the tone of his testimony.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)

Now I don't know how much evidence that Williams was aware of or what he had access to but it's interesting that Williams specifically pinpoints the SN window and without hesitation names Oswald as being in that window whereas neither Jarman or Norman said anything about Oswald, did Williams say Oswald because he knew beyond all doubt that it was in fact Oswald?

Btw if someone was firing at the President of the United States from the floor directly above, would you stay where you are and be as quiet as a mouse or would run across the floor and be closer to the elevator and stairs.

JohnM

We also have this....

Mr. BALL. You were at what window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from.

Not really supportive of your point.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 08:41:44 AM
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We also have this....

Mr. BALL. You were at what window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from.

Not really supportive of your point.

You missed the point and have taken your quotes out of context, much like Oswald finally admitting that he came down from the 6th floor, the following exchange was made when Williams was equally relaxed and he subconsciencly just blurted out an honest response, Williams knew Oswald was in the sniper's nest and was thus he was speaking from a foundation of truth where honesty cannot be disguised.

Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.


JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 09:00:21 AM
Is this a reasonable summary of your position?

Williams saw Oswald in the SN about 5 minutes before the shots and decided leave and investigate downstairs to see if any co-workers were there.

At some point, presumably before Jarman makes his affidavit the next day,  the three decide to protect BRW from association with the 6th floor and agree to say that they all took the elevator together to the 5th to watch the motorcade.

Williams it taken with Shelley and Arce to DPD to give an affidavit following Fritz telling Senkel to round up all those on the 6th floor that day. This occurred around 1.30pm, around the time the rifle was discovered.

Oswald is arrested and arrives at DPD and is specifically referred to in Williams affidavit. Ie. Williams knows Oswald is the prime suspect at the time his affidavit is taken.



Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 09:40:50 AM
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Is this a reasonable summary of your position?

Williams saw Oswald in the SN about 5 minutes before the shots and decided leave and investigate downstairs to see if any co-workers were there.

At some point, presumably before Jarman makes his affidavit the next day,  the three decide to protect BRW from association with the 6th floor and agree to say that they all took the elevator together to the 5th to watch the motorcade.

Williams it taken with Shelley and Arce to DPD to give an affidavit following Fritz telling Senkel to round up all those on the 6th floor that day. This occurred around 1.30pm, around the time the rifle was discovered.

Oswald is arrested and arrives at DPD and is specifically referred to in Williams affidavit. Ie. Williams knows Oswald is the prime suspect at the time his affidavit is taken.

From BRW's first day affidavit - he mentions Givens and Oswald and avoids all mention of ever being on the 6th floor and stated that he went to the fifth floor with Norman and Jarman (Hank and Junior).

He mentions seeing officers come up.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340456/?q=Bonnie%20ray%20Williams%20
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 09:59:06 AM
Thanks Tony,

Here is his first day statement.

(https://preview.ibb.co/fBNGzz/A748007_A_B319_4_B7_D_A2_AC_CB5611_C05_FC6.jpg)

(https://preview.ibb.co/mrfiCK/CCF98048_975_B_46_B7_B6_CB_2_BEBF8_F6_CDC7.jpg)

I wonder why he mentions Givens. I can understand the DPD interest about Givens but how would BRW know that he could not get back into the building?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 10:20:15 AM
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From BRW's first day affidavit - he mentions Givens and Oswald and avoids all mention of ever being on the 6th floor and stated that he went to the fifth floor with Norman and Jarman (Hank and Junior).

He mentions seeing officers come up.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340456/?q=Bonnie%20ray%20Williams%20

The very next day Williams talks to the FBI and tells them that he was on the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.


JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 10:45:33 AM
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The very next day Williams talks to the FBI and tells them that he was on the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.


JohnM

Note the "you stayed only 3 minutes" and "used the stairs" which he then denied stating.

When he gave his first day statement he didn't mention the 6th floor and by the second day he had no idea what Norman and Jarman told the DP. BRW may have been aware of the news reports of the "assassin" having eaten his chicken lunch on the 6th floor.

Or if he was seen from the outside on the 6th floor.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 10:52:41 AM
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The very next day Williams talks to the FBI and tells them that he was on the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.


JohnM

Some changes from the day before are apparent. Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD.  There is a time shift to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator, effectively distancing himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. However in time it would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley  that the men did indeed break for lunch about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn’t remember this sighting at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really see Oswald standing east of the east elevator?

Significantly,  he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred at 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch!  If we add the time shift it becomes arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards?

Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at " approximately the middle of the building" to watch the motorcade. He heard 2 shots coming from above.

Since his first day affidavit he likely is made aware that the assassin's chicken lunch was discovered on the 6th floor. Also he may have anticipated someone witnessing him or even photographing him on the 6th floor.

Meanwhile Jarman has suck to the original plan.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 10:59:24 AM
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Note the "you stayed only 3 minutes" and "used the stairs" which he then denied stating.

When he gave his first day statement he didn't mention the 6th floor and by the second day he had no idea what Norman and Jarman told the DP. BRW may have been aware of the news reports of the "assassin" having eaten his chicken lunch on the 6th floor.

Or if he was seen from the outside on the 6th floor.

Quote
Note the "you stayed only 3 minutes" and "used the stairs" which he then denied stating.

That's why I posted the full interaction, the reason I believe for the 3 minutes if he did actually say it, is that at first Williams was doing his damndest to distance himself from being there at 12:30.

Quote
When he gave his first day statement he didn't mention the 6th floor and by the second day he had no idea what Norman and Jarman told the DP.

Maybe he didn't mention the 6th floor because he figured he had no reason to.

Quote
BRW may have been aware of the news reports of the "assassin" having eaten his chicken lunch on the 6th floor.

And...?

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 11:06:36 AM
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That's why I posted the full interaction, the reason I believe for the 3 minutes if he did actually say it, is that at first Williams was doing his damndest to distance himself from being there at 12:30.


Agree.....see my earlier post.

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Maybe he didn't mention the 6th floor because he figured he had no reason to.



JohnM

No reason to after he told of shots from above and knew the guy you think he saw a few minutes before was the prime suspect......really?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 11:13:45 AM
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That's why I posted the full interaction, the reason I believe for the 3 minutes if he did actually say it, is that at first Williams was doing his damndest to distance himself from being there at 12:30.

Maybe he didn't mention the 6th floor because he figured he had no reason to.

And...?

JohnM

The 6th floor was where he heard the shots fired from. I don't believe it would have been a wise move to admit to the DP that he was on the 6th floor some 5 minutes prior.

Would you?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:13:57 AM
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Some changes from the day before are apparent. Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD.  There is a time shift to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator, effectively distancing himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. However in time it would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley  that the men did indeed break for lunch about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn’t remember this sighting at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really see Oswald standing east of the east elevator?

Significantly,  he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred at 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch!  If we add the time shift it becomes arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards?

Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at " approximately the middle of the building" to watch the motorcade. He heard 2 shots coming from above.

Since his first day affidavit he likely is made aware that the assassin's chicken lunch was discovered on the 6th floor. Also he may have anticipated someone witnessing him or even photographing him on the 6th floor.

Meanwhile Jarman has suck to the original plan.

Quote
Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD.

Why is everything so black and white to you?

It's the next day and if as you suggest they already have co-ordinated their stories why would Williams just stuff it all up and jeopardize not only himself but his mates as well?

I feel you're reading too much into how you interpret their words and it's largely what I said at the start, as time went on they were just encouraged to recall more details.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 11:23:53 AM
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Why is everything so black and white to you?

It's the next day and if as you suggest they already have co-ordinated their stories why would Williams just stuff it all up and jeopardize not only himself but his mates as well?

I feel you're reading too much into how you interpret their words and it's largely what I said at the start, as time went on they were just encouraged to recall more details.

JohnM

Because he realises it is his lunch remnants that have been linked to the assassin......all over the media. I’m sure he was aware of fingerprinting going on. He occupied the SN. For all he knew there were photos of him on the 6th floor. He is in damage control and has no way to contact Jarman. That’s why......
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 11:24:19 AM
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Why is everything so black and white to you?

It's the next day and if as you suggest they already have co-ordinated their stories why would Williams just stuff it all up and jeopardize not only himself but his mates as well?

I feel you're reading too much into how you interpret their words and it's largely what I said at the start, as time went on they were just encouraged to recall more details.

JohnM

You have it round the wrong way - Norman and Jarman hung out Williams to dry by admitting that they both arrived to the 5th floor late - at around 12.25 pm.

Suddenly it goes from just 3 minutes to 25 minutes on the 6th floor - with the gunman present somewhere.

On the Friday afternoon, BRW was already keeping quiet about his presence on the 6th floor.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:28:08 AM
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Agree.....see my earlier post.

No reason to after he told of shots from above and knew the guy you think he saw a few minutes before was the prime suspect......really?

Quote
Agree.....see my earlier post.

 Thumb1:

Quote
No reason to after he told of shots from above and knew the guy you think he saw a few minutes before was the prime suspect......really?

I don't think Williams wanted to admit to seeing Oswald, so what else was left to say?

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 11:32:47 AM
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You have it round the wrong way - Norman and Jarman hung out Williams to dry by admitting that they both arrived to the 5th floor late - at around 12.25 pm.

Suddenly it goes from just 3 minutes to 25 minutes on the 6th floor.

On the Friday afternoon, BRW was already keeping quiet about his presence on the 6th floor.

The problem was that Jarman did what they initially agreed but he didn’t know that Williams had made the "adjustment". Two things had to change initially, one was that he could no longer claim to have taken the elevator with them. As we have seen from the assembled testimony Jarman and Norman did not ascend until about 12.20 or later. This caused a problem with the time he arrived. In addition his lunch was found and for all he knew they would find his prints all over the bag and bottle. If he says nothing about the 6th floor he is cooked.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 11:36:26 AM
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Thumb1:

I don't think Williams wanted to admit to seeing Oswald, so what else was left to say?

JohnM

Please tidy up the quotes to accurately represent my reply. The "I agree" was relating to your suggestion that he was trying to distance himself from 12.30.

You believe that Williams would lie about not seeing the accused assassin in the SN......sound highly unlikely to me.......and a very brave move.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
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Because he realises it is his lunch remnants that have been linked to the assassin......all over the media. I’m sure he was aware of fingerprinting going on. He occupied the SN. For all he knew there were photos of him on the 6th floor. He is in damage control and has no way to contact Jarman. That’s why......

Quote
Because he realises it is his lunch remnants that have been linked to the assassin......all over the media.

Yep, the chicken lunch was mentioned early on.

Quote
I’m sure he was aware of fingerprinting going on.

Probably.

Quote
He occupied the SN.

He could have.

Quote
For all he knew there were photos of him on the 6th floor.

Would that have crossed his mind?

Quote
He is in damage control and has no way to contact Jarman.

Well I agree that Bonnie Ray was picking his words very carefully.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 11:41:33 AM
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Yep, the chicken lunch was mentioned early on.

Probably.

He could have.

Would that have crossed his mind?

Well I agree that Bonnie Ray was picking his words very carefully.

JohnM

Do you think he was shown the Dillard photo at some point?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 11:43:08 AM
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Thumb1:

I don't think Williams wanted to admit to seeing Oswald, so what else was left to say?

JohnM

Why would BRW maintain his silence after Lee was killed?

Why did Norman, Jarman and Williams state they heard and saw no one come down from the 6th floor yet BRW was able to see the Police officer come onto the 5th floor and not warn him there was a gunman on the 6th floor?

Why did Thayer Waldo write a story about the "scared Negro"? In essence it was about an African-American male that saw lee Harvey Oswald firing from the SN.

Intimidation or soliciting a confession from the unnamed African-American male?

Another Nostradamus?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:43:39 AM
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Please tidy up the quotes to accurately represent my reply. The "I agree" was relating to your suggestion that he was trying to distance himself from 12.30.

Quote
Please tidy up the quotes to accurately represent my reply.

Huh?

Quote
The "I agree" was relating to your suggestion that he was trying to distance himself from 12.30.

I know, that's why I thumbed up your comment and my post accurately represents this, what the heck are you on about?

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:45:32 AM
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You believe that Williams would lie about not seeing the accused assassin in the SN......sound highly unlikely to me.......and a very brave move.

Williams didn't want to get involved, it's not Rocket Science.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:47:05 AM
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Do you think he was shown the Dillard photo at some point?

Shown by whom?

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 11:55:04 AM
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Williams didn't want to get involved, it's not Rocket Science.

JohnM

Arnold Rowland was vigorously discredited by the WC, by using the FBI and his own wife, about seeing the African-American male in the SE corner at 12.15 pm.

You now agree that the African-American male as seen by Arnold Rowland at 12.15 pm was in fact BRW?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 11:57:43 AM
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Why would BRW maintain his silence after Lee was killed?

Seriously? You people absolutely crucify anybody who saw Oswald just ask Brennan or Givens and if Williams changed his story to say he actually did see Oswald in the sniper's nest then just tell me how that would go down?, perhaps Bonnie Ray was a touch more perceptive than you give him credit for.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
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Seriously? You people absolutely crucify anybody who saw Oswald just ask Brennan or Givens and if Williams changed his story to say he actually did see Oswald in the sniper's nest then just tell me how that would go down?, perhaps Bonnie Ray was a touch more perceptive than you give him credit for.

JohnM

And what if it was not Oswald that he saw.......how would the events have played out in your view? Would Williams have come to Oswald’s defence?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 12:17:02 PM
And a big shout out to the 130 guests currently viewing the thread.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 12:21:41 PM
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Seriously? You people absolutely crucify anybody who saw Oswald just ask Brennan or Givens and if Williams changed his story to say he actually did see Oswald in the sniper's nest then just tell me how that would go down?, perhaps Bonnie Ray was a touch more perceptive than you give him credit for.

JohnM

Did BRW see Lee Harvey Oswald after 12.15 pm on the 6th floor?

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 12:22:41 PM
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At this point only Howard feels that the proposal that the available evidence is not suggestive that the 3 witnesses did not collude in an attempt to protect Williams from the floor seats were associated with. I would point out that the evidence presented was available to the WC. Howard feels that it was simply a matter of some sort of common group mistake......sort of a reverse gorilla experiment effect where somehow a person is included in an event who wasn’t present.


Not exactly, Colin.

I think the initial statements in which two of the Stooges seem to mention BRW ascending to the 5th floor with them is just a mistake they made under a hectic confusing and stressful situation. The crux of their statements concerned what they saw and heard during the assassination, not the exact movements and whereabouts of each of the Stooges prior to the event.

BRW's locale and movements in the period preceding the shots simply wasn't important to them. What they definitely remembered was that BRW was with them when the shots rang out.

What I do find disconcerting is BRW claiming he ate his lunch downstairs. At least I think that's something he claimed. That bothers me.

The Stooges also said some other things that don't quite make sense to me, but I don't see anything sinister in it.

For example, immediately after the shots the Stooges went to the other side of the floor and looked out the window. I think part of the narrative has become they moved there to see the crowd in the area behind the building. Except there was no crowd assembled there immediately after the shots.

I think the Stooges actually ran to that end of the building as it afforded them a better view of the motorcade and it's rush towards Parkland.
 
I simply do not buy that in the scant harried moments spent on the 5th floor after the shots, that BRW's location before the shots was even a consideration.

I can't envision BRW saying something to the effect of 'I was on the 6th floor a few minutes before the shots, and I need you guys to cover that up'.

I'm pretty sure they were more concerned about what was ocurring at that moment and not where BRW was at 12:25.

I also find it unlikely that Jarman and Norman, if asked to, would readily agree to lie on behalf of BRW. They were just work acquaintances, not buxom buddies.

Can't buy into the Stooge conspiracy. The logistics and timeline just doesn't support it.

However, BRW's misleading (or at best, inaccurate) statements are an issue of concern. I can understand why he would want to distance himself from the 6th floor, but since he definitely wasn't a shooter, lying about being there before the shooting is sheer stupidity.
 
That being said, I don't believe BRW was involved in a conspiracy to murder JFK, or that the two other Stooges conspired to hide the fact that BRW ate his lunch on the 6th floor.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
I don’t think any of them were involved in the assassination either. As for their affidavits and statements we have to agree to disagee. Not with just me but every other poster in the thread it seems. Maybe we might event get some CTs posting their thoughts too.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 12:41:56 PM
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And what if it was not Oswald that he saw.......how would the events have played out in your view? Would Williams have come to Oswald’s defence?

Quote
And what if it was not Oswald that he saw.......how would the events have played out in your view?

I don't think that Williams would have been allowed to live to be able to identify the guy because if this guy was willing to kill the President then BRW would have been less than nothing.

Quote
Would Williams have come to Oswald’s defence?

That's interesting if Williams managed to get away, saw Oswald arrested and subsequently realized that the guy he saw must have been the assassin then that's a conundrum that has no easy answer.

JohnM



Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 01:01:29 PM
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I don't think that Williams would have been allowed to live to be able to identify the guy because if this guy was willing to kill the President then BRW would have been less than nothing.

That's interesting if Williams managed to get away, saw Oswald arrested and subsequently realized that the guy he saw must have been the assassin then that's a conundrum that has no easy answer.

JohnM

BRW saw Lee taken into Police custody when he wrote his statement. No mention of being on the 6th floor at all. Why?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 01:07:10 PM
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I don’t think any of them were involved in the assassination either. As for their affidavits and statements we have to agree to disagee. Not with just me but every other poster in the thread it seems.

Guess that makes me a lone nut.

Since we seem to agree the Stooge conspiracy would have been hatched before the Stooges arrived downstairs, and the Stooges are known to have been downstairs within a few minutes of the shots....

I need to ask, do you honestly believe BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 was a consideration or matter of importance to the Stooges during those few moments - or were they interested in getting downstairs and finding out WTF just happened ?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 01:08:30 PM
Jarman's statement from 11/23/63

Notice anything missing?

November 22 DPD Statement
Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Some fairly precise recollections there.....including.....we were all out on the street about noon.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 01:36:30 PM
I'm curious how the postulated Stooge Conspiracy was arranged.

I mean, whose idea was it ?

Give me an example or your best guess of what was said amongst the Stooges during the set up of the conspiracy.

Did it go down like this....

BRW: 'Phuck me, I was just up there...you guys have to help a fellow stooge'

NORMAN: 'Don't sweat it, Bro...We've got your back'.

JARMAN: 'If anyone asks, just tell them you were with us the whole time'

Im just trying to imagine how the Stooge decision to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor was reached.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 01:44:36 PM
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I'm curious how the postulated Stooge Conspiracy was arranged.

I mean, whose idea was it ?

Give me an example or your best guess of what was said amongst the Stooges during the set up of the conspiracy.

Did it go down like this....

BRW: 'Phuck me, I was just up there...you guys have to help a fellow stooge'

NORMAN: 'Don't sweat it, Bro...We've got your back'.

JARMAN: 'If anyone asks, just tell them you were with us the whole time'

Im just trying to imagine how the Stooge decision to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor was reached.

Did BRW inform Norman and Jarman that he had come down from the 6th floor when he joined them just after 12.25 pm?

Why didn't any of them see Jack Dougherty?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 01:56:13 PM
If Jarman and Norman didn't know BRW was on the 6th floor or if they didn't know where he was previous to him joining them on the 5th floor, then there'd be no need for a Stooge Conspiracy.  8)

How would the Stooges conspire to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor if they didn't even know he was there ?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 02:05:30 PM
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If Jarman and Norman didn't know BRW was on the 6th floor or if they didn't know where he was previous to him joining them on the 5th floor, then there'd be no need for a Stooge Conspiracy.  8)

How would the Stooges conspire to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor if they didn't even know he was there ?

Except, BRW left physical evidence that he was up on the 6th floor in the SN and he was unaware that he was seen by Arnold Rowland at 12.15 pm and then not seen after 12.25 pm.

All BRW had to say was "I came up with both of you". Guess what? That's exactly how it initially panned out. Just read BRW's first day affidavit.

You think Norman and Jarman didn't understand the consequences for their fellow African-American colleague on him coming down from the floor where the shots were fired from just 5 minutes ago?

If they didn't see or hear anything why were they so traumatised, especially BRW?

Mr. MCCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.
Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment. (Discussion off the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record. Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
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Please desist with your "supporting evidence" garbage because you're not fooling anyone.

Not only was all the Hidell handwriting matched to Oswald but he also had the Hidell ID in his wallet and the negative used to manufacture the ID was found in Oswald's possessions. Game Over Pal, game over!

(https://s15.postimg.cc/hjaplck2j/alek_hidell_id.jpg)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/ecg61kmq3/Cadigan_ex_20.jpg)

JohnM

That Koolade that you drink is pretty strong because you're totally delusional. You are totally clueless about the evidence if you think that the Hidell signature was matched to LHO.  What wallet? There is NO wallet listed on the official DPD document that shows what was taken off of LHO at the time of his arrest.

Of course you want me to desist with the "supporting evidence" stuff since you have NONE.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 02:47:34 PM
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It's actually remarkably quite simple, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750, argue with those facts Rob and don't accuse me again of changing the Kleins ad, naughty naughty.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/5241xx1or/Riflead1.jpg)

JohnM

You're being dishonest John as research has shown that the catalog number in the February issue of the American Rifleman matched a 36" carbine. The WC said that LHO used that issue.

The game of changing the magazine used won't work.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 02:54:32 PM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 15, 2018, 03:28:44 PM
For JohnM......just came across this.....

In this FBI statement Williams claimed he heard Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.

(https://preview.ibb.co/cYLywe/287_ACA24_EE63_44_F8_ABAA_1_C284_CC5299_C.jpg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 15, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
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For JohnM......just came across this.....

In this FBI statement Williams claimed he heard Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.

(https://preview.ibb.co/cYLywe/287_ACA24_EE63_44_F8_ABAA_1_C284_CC5299_C.jpg)

Colin,

BRW was "only" out by 20 minutes. Again, the notion was that BRW was off the 6th floor prior to 12.15 pm.

But we know that both Norman and Jarman hadnt returned to the 5th floor yet.

With Lee dead, the DP and the FBI knowing who the chicken lunch belonged to, BRW reveals more detail what he did on 22/11/1963. None of which now mattered.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 06:11:01 PM
So none of the proponents of The Stooge Conspiracy wants to take a crack at explaining how the conspiracy was launched ?

For the Stooge Conspiracy to be real - Moe, Larry and Curly would have had to conspire. That is to say, they'd have to have a conversation and agree to covering up that BRW was on the 6th floor and what their cover story was.

I submit there would had to have been a conversation similar to the one I posted above and that the Stooges would have had to agree to their conspiracy within 2 or 3 minutes of the shooting.

Somehow, I just find it hard to believe that BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 PM was even discussed by the Stooges from 12:31 to 12:33 PM at all.

Convince me that the Stooge Conspiracy was real by explaining how, when, and where the Stooges launched their conspiracy.

BTW - I'm sure there are many Shemp fans that are upset he hasn't been mentioned as a Stooge Conspirator yet. Don't worry Shemp fans, I'm sure the conspiracy will expand and include you later.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 15, 2018, 06:42:40 PM
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You're being dishonest John as research has shown that the catalog number in the February issue of the American Rifleman matched a 36" carbine. The WC said that LHO used that issue.

The game of changing the magazine used won't work.

You're impossible.....Mr Crapio.....   Are you completely devoid of the ability to reason?   

Simply because a magazine listed the length of the carcano as 36 inches you believe that it would have been utterly impossible for Kleins to have sent a 40 inch long carcano.    You've been hung up on that hook for years.....and it's a very poor idea on which to base your argument.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 15, 2018, 07:20:06 PM
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So none of the proponents of The Stooge Conspiracy wants to take a crack at explaining how the conspiracy was launched ?

For the Stooge Conspiracy to be real - Moe, Larry and Curly would have had to conspire. That is to say, they'd have to have a conversation and agree to covering up that BRW was on the 6th floor and what their cover story was.

I submit there would had to have been a conversation similar to the one I posted above and that the Stooges would have had to agree to their conspiracy within 2 or 3 minutes of the shooting.

Somehow, I just find it hard to believe that BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 PM was even discussed by the Stooges from 12:31 to 12:33 PM at all.

Convince me that the Stooge Conspiracy was real by explaining how, when, and where the Stooges launched their conspiracy.

BTW - I'm sure there are many Shemp fans that are upset he hasn't been mentioned as a Stooge Conspirator yet. Don't worry Shemp fans, I'm sure the conspiracy will expand and include you later.

Maybe include Oswald as Lone Stooge.

> Stooges are the butt of humour (Oswald was called 'Osvaldovitch' by fellow marines, 'butt-twister' by fellow boarders, and regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

 ;)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 15, 2018, 07:30:37 PM
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Include Oswald as a Lone Stooge.

> Stooges are the butt of humour (Oswald was called 'Osvaldovitch' by fellow marines, 'butt-twister' by fellow boarders, and regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of the basic facts, Chappy..... 

The words on the back of George De Morenschildt's copy of CE 133A  were "HUNTER OF FASCISTS "   Not "KILLER" of fascists....   

But more important...  Where did you learn that Marina was the person who wrote that inscription??
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 15, 2018, 08:00:29 PM
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regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of the basic facts, Chappy..... 

The words on the back of George De Morenschildt's copy of CE 133A  were "HUNTER OF FASCISTS "   Not "KILLER" of fascists....   

But more important...  Where did you learn that Marina was the person who wrote that inscription??

More important to whom, Waldo? Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge? Was the fascist-killer wannabe, butt-twisting Osvoldovitch laughed at or not?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 15, 2018, 08:38:28 PM
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More important to whom, Waldo? Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge? Was the fascist-killer wannabe, butt-twisting Osvoldovitch laughed at or not?
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Maybe include Oswald as Lone Stooge.

> Stooges are the butt of humour (Oswald was called 'Osvaldovitch' by fellow marines, 'butt-twister' by fellow boarders, and regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

 ;)

Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge?


Thank you for demonstrating your willingness to lie and deny and evade your own words.....

regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

This statement says that Marina mocked Lee by writing... "Hunter of Fascists Ha, ha,ha" on the back of De Morhenschildt's  copy of CE 133A.

Thanks again for proving that you're not only ignorant about the case....You're a liar.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 15, 2018, 10:47:39 PM
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Walt "The LNer" Flakebread has struck again. If anyone doubts that this poster is really a LNer then I question their reasoning skills. He is telling falsehoods to protect the WC's claims just like all LNers do.

Screwball!....   WHERE??... Have I told a "falsehood"?

Simply because a magazine listed the length of the carcano as 36 inches you believe that it would have been utterly impossible for Kleins to have sent a 40 inch long carcano. 

And, How does my assessment that the 36 inch dimension in The American Rifleman ad is irrelevant  make me a supporter of LBJ's Cover up committee.   Face it Robbie....  Your animosity toward me because I proved to you that you were wrong about the carcano ejecting the clip just like the M-1 garand, blinds you to the truth.

You simply can't accept that you are wrong on so many aspects of the case.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 12:24:27 AM
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So none of the proponents of The Stooge Conspiracy wants to take a crack at explaining how the conspiracy was launched ?

For the Stooge Conspiracy to be real - Moe, Larry and Curly would have had to conspire. That is to say, they'd have to have a conversation and agree to covering up that BRW was on the 6th floor and what their cover story was.

I submit there would had to have been a conversation similar to the one I posted above and that the Stooges would have had to agree to their conspiracy within 2 or 3 minutes of the shooting.

Somehow, I just find it hard to believe that BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 PM was even discussed by the Stooges from 12:31 to 12:33 PM at all.

Convince me that the Stooge Conspiracy was real by explaining how, when, and where the Stooges launched their conspiracy.

BTW - I'm sure there are many Shemp fans that are upset he hasn't been mentioned as a Stooge Conspirator yet. Don't worry Shemp fans, I'm sure the conspiracy will expand and include you later.

Only Norman, Jarman and Williams know what transpired between them. The early statements from them proved they colluded a false story involving BRW. It's called CYA. No conspiracy, just surviving and keeping out of the clutches of the DP.

BRW would have been treated like BWF was by the DP - as a potential co-conspirator. Except he was an African-American male. Do l need to spell it out what would of happened?

BRW chose wisely.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2018, 12:57:06 AM
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Only Norman, Jarman and Williams know what transpired between them. The early statements from them proved they colluded a false story involving BRW. It's called CYA. No conspiracy, just surviving and keeping out of the clutches of the DP.

BRW would have been treated like BWF was by the DP - as a potential co-conspirator. Except he was an African-American male. Do l need to spell it out what would of happened?

BRW chose wisely.

The early statements from them proved they colluded a false story involving BRW. It's called CYA.

Im not sure that "colluded" is the correct word....And I doubt that there was a "conspiracy" that the three stooges cooked up....   They simply were fed information by Hoover's "Extra Special " agents and they knew what the conspirators wanted them to say....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 16, 2018, 01:29:12 AM
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Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge?


Thank you for demonstrating your willingness to lie and deny and evade your own words.....

regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)

This statement says that Marina mocked Lee by writing... "Hunter of Fascists Ha, ha,ha" on the back of De Morhenschildt's  copy of CE 133A.

Thanks again for proving that you're not only ignorant about the case....You're a liar

You're ignorant, period. You've mangled the intent of my post, goofball.

So Osvaldovitch missed his prey first time around. Bad luck. No matter... next time around he got lucky and slayed the biggest prey of all.

And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.

Marina laughed at him in that getup, no matter what she wrote and whether you lot you like it or not.

But I digress. I'll set aside your reading comprehension shortcomings for now, and ask you again: Was 'Osvaldovitch' laughed at as a butt-twisting, fascist-killer wannabe, or not?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2018, 01:42:01 AM
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You're ignorant, period.

Q: What does a hunter with a rifle do when finding the prey.
A: Tries to kill it. Duh.

So Osvaldovitch missed his prey first time around. Bad luck. No matter... next time around he got lucky and slayed the biggest prey of all.

And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.

Hunter. Killer. BFD. Marina laughed at him in that getup, whether you like it or not.

But I digress. I'll set aside your reading comprehension shortcomings for now, and ask you again: Was 'Osvaldovitch' laughed at as a butt-twisting, fascist-killer wannabe, or not?

And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.


Slip of the tongue??....   Why don't you man up and admit that you actually didn't know that the inscription was "Hunter of  Fascists ....and not KILLER of fascists as you wrote.   

Frankly, Chappy...I'm fed up with your stupidity....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 16, 2018, 01:53:59 AM
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And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.


Slip of the tongue??....   Why don't you man up and admit that you actually didn't know that the inscription was "Hunter of  Fascists ....and not KILLER of fascists as you wrote.   

I did know, actually. I'm not a robot that remembers levery detail, especially a detail that doesn't change the fact that Marina laughed at his getup in the photos.

And doesn't change the fact that others laughed at him. Stop dodging
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 02:19:39 AM
I would like to develop this thread in a cooperative manner. Things only happened one way so I would like to progress the combined efforts of all to some form of consensus that we can work with. Perhaps a chronological examination will assist. I suggest we start with day one.

The things we do know would suggest that very early on Williams knew that his presence on the 6th floor just before the shots was a serious issue for him. His proximity to the shots as they happened, even if he could not work out exactly where they came from he likely was told by the others shortly after. Within an hour those who had worked on the 6th floor that day were rounded up and takes to the DPD to provide affidavits.

In his affidavit he states that the shots sounded like they "came from just above us". He also knows that Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. In his affidavit he mentions nothing of his lunch trip to the sixth but said he went back up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman and also said that the shots occurred "shortly after we arrived" on the 5th floor.

There seems little doubt that at this point, within 2 hours of the assassination, at least Williams has consciously decided to alter the facts to that extent.

He was released from the DPD around 3.30pm and I can only assume he went home. Knowing human nature what do we think is most likely he did for the rest of Friday?

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 03:19:06 AM
I imagine he would be tuned to the radio/TV to get the latest updates about the assassination. He likely heard Oswald's communist background details. Also that the chicken lunch was associated with the assassin. He would likely assume that the SN area was being processed for fingerprints.

I think he could have told his young wife what had happened and the bind he was in. Most of us in some serious situation also get advise from trusted family/friends. What to do, maintain the original statement or inform the authorities of his 6th floor presence?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 03:24:04 AM
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I would like to develop this thread in a cooperative manner. Things only happened one way so I would like to progress the combined efforts of all to some form of consensus that we can work with. Perhaps a chronological examination will assist. I suggest we start with day one.

The things we do know would suggest that very early on Williams knew that his presence on the 6th floor just before the shots was a serious issue for him. His proximity to the shots as they happened, even if he could not work out exactly where they came from he likely was told by the others shortly after. Within an hour those who had worked on the 6th floor that day were rounded up and takes to the DPD to provide affidavits.

In his affidavit he states that the shots sounded like they "came from just above us". He also knows that Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. In his affidavit he mentions nothing of his lunch trip to the sixth but said he went back up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman and also said that the shots occurred "shortly after we arrived" on the 5th floor.

There seems little doubt that at this point, within 2 hours of the assassination, at least Williams has consciously decided to alter the facts to that extent.

He was released from the DPD around 3.30pm and I can only assume he went home. Knowing human nature what do we think is most likely he did for the rest of Friday?

Try to get into contact with Norman and Jarman asap and stay in front of the TV or radio and listen to what was found on the 6th floor - the floor he was on up until 12.25 pm.

For example this:

Commence at 3.18 


Do you think BRW would have been worried by that? This was before Lee was charged with the assassination of JFK.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8—paper bag. Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Small bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.
Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.
Mr. BALL. Anything else? Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch—I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. MCCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Now factor in the WC testimony of Rowland, Mooney and Hill.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 03:26:27 AM
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I imagine he would be tuned to the radio/TV to get the latest updates about the assassination. He likely heard Oswald's communist background details. Also that the chicken lunch was associated with the assassin. He would likely assume that the SN area was being processed for fingerprints.

I think he could have told his young wife what had happened and the bind he was in. Most of us in some serious situation also get advise from trusted family/friends. What to do, maintain the original statement or inform the authorities of his 6th floor presence?

Automatic death sentence right there.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 04:12:26 AM
Maybe step back to the few minutes before the shots. When he meets up with Norman and Jarman what is the likely conversation between them? Does Williams say he has just been upstairs? Does he ask where the flooring crew are? Do they say when have you been? Are you going to have lunch? Etc.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 04:54:10 AM
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Maybe step back to the few minutes before the shots. When he meets up with Norman and Jarman what is the likely conversation between them? Does Williams say he has just been upstairs? Does he ask where the flooring crew are? Do they say when have you been? Are you going to have lunch? Etc.

It depends if BRW "was aware of" or "interacted" with anyone else up on the 6th floor.

Where was Jack Dougherty?

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 05:19:23 AM
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It depends if BRW "was aware of" or "interacted" with anyone else up on the 6th floor while he was up there up until 12.15 pm.

Where was Jack Dougherty?

Well if we analyse the offical timeline Dougherty has to take the west elevator to the 6th floor after Jarman and Norman ascend. If Williams hears them talking or opening windows below him they have to have closed the west elevator gate and walked to the SE corner of the 5th. This would be about 30 seconds or so. Dougherty has to call the elevator down and ascend to the 6th. It is possible that this could have been after Williams uses the east elevator to go down to the 5th. It also means that Dougherty was also on the 6th floor when the assassin is present. Interestingly his first day affidavit states he went back to work and had "gone down to the 5th" when he heard a noise. He doesn’t say he was on the sixth so it is not apparent at that stage.

I do not believe that the stimulus that lead to Williams vacating the SN was overtly threatening. If it was he would not have joined Jarman and Norman on the floor below.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 05:43:10 AM
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Well if we analyse the offical timeline Dougherty has to take the west elevator to the 6th floor after Jarman and Norman ascend. If Williams hears them talking or opening windows below him they have to have closed the west elevator gate and walked to the SE corner of the 5th. This would be about 30 seconds or so. Dougherty has to call the elevator down and ascend to the 6th. It is possible that this could have been after Williams uses the east elevator to go down to the 5th. It also means that Dougherty was also on the 6th floor when the assassin is present. Interestingly his first day affidavit states he went back to work and had "gone down to the 5th" when he heard a noise. He doesn’t say he was on the sixth so it is not apparent at that stage.

I do not believe that the stimulus that lead to Williams vacating the SN was overtly threatening. If it was he would not have joined Jarman and Norman on the floor below.

Agree - otherwise BRW would have (likely) made an exit straight out the building to inform the Police.

He instead went to the 5th floor and was under the SE corner of the 6th floor.

To me - BRW didn't see a weapon of any kind while he was on the 6th floor. Speculation of course.

If he had seen Lee on the 6th floor (12 noon - 12.25 pm), he had the perfect opportunity to let the DP know while Lee was under arrest.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 06:57:23 AM
I don’t think he saw Oswald as JohnM has proposed. He had every chance to inform them of his sighting at the DPD that afternoon when questioned. He had an alibi with Norman and Jarman. However, I don’t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental. With Williams in place on the 6th by 12.15pm a shooter simply would have found an alternate spot, likely the 7th floor directly above the SN.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 08:26:48 AM
Essentially we have 3 possibilities.

Option 1.
Williams saw no one and just happened to vacate the 6th floor independently. He left his lunch remnants and now on day one he decides to say nothing about his return to the sixth floor, but says he went with Jarman and Norman.

Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.

Option 3. Williams sees someone other than Oswald but says nothing.

For options 2 and 3 Williams vacates the 6th floor but does not feel threatened at the time.

By the next day, someone/thing has persuaded him to inform the FBI that he visited the 6th floor for a just a few minutes around noon before joining Norman and Jarman.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 12:11:32 PM
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Essentially we have 3 possibilities.

Option 1.
Williams saw no one and just happened to vacate the 6th floor independently. He left his lunch remnants and now on day one he decides to say nothing about his return to the sixth floor, but says he went with Jarman and Norman.

Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.

Option 3. Williams sees someone other than Oswald but says nothing.

For options 2 and 3 Williams vacates the 6th floor but does not feel threatened at the time.

By the next day, someone/thing has persuaded him to inform the FBI that he visited the 6th floor for a just a few minutes around noon before joining Norman and Jarman.

The presence of a chicken lunch sack and Dr Pepper bottle up on the 6th floor was broadcast on Friday afternoon. It was discussed that the assassin had eaten his chicken lunch while waiting for the President.

Tom Alyea filmed Detective Studebaker dusting a Dr Pepper bottle and filmed the lunch sack on the ground near the Two wheeler on the 6th floor.

Why then did the DP NOT hand over the chicken lunch sack and Dr Pepper bottle to the FBI on Friday evening?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2018, 01:50:37 PM
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I don’t think he saw Oswald as JohnM has proposed. He had every chance to inform them of his sighting at the DPD that afternoon when questioned. He had an alibi with Norman and Jarman. However, I don’t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental. With Williams in place on the 6th by 12.15pm a shooter simply would have found an alternate spot, likely the 7th floor directly above the SN.

I don’t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental.

There was nobody firing a rifle from that SE corner window at the time of the murder....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 16, 2018, 02:11:08 PM
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There was nobody firing a rifle from that SE corner window at the time of the murder....

Why do you think that?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 16, 2018, 02:54:42 PM
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Automatic death sentence right there.

Oh please.

BRW wasn't getting a death sentence for admitting he was on the 6th floor, 5 minutes before the shots were fired.

He had an iron clad alibi for his presence on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 03:00:22 PM
November 23 FBI Interview

On Saturday the 23rd, the day after the assassination Williams was visited by FBI  Agents Odum and Griffin and a statement prepared following his interview with them. We must bear in mind that just 24 hours after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before  would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25pm.

Some changes from the day before are and Williams contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD. He shifted the time to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator in an attempt to distance himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. It would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley that the men did indeed break for lunch but not until about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered seeing Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn’t remember this sighting at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really see Oswald standing to the east of the east elevator?

Significantly,  he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred closer to 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch!  If we add the time shift correction he arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards?

Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at "approximately the middle of the building" to watch the motorcade. He heard 2 shots coming from above. He did not hang his head out the window but "glanced up and saw no one". 

He ran to west side windows with the others and, while there, sees an officer (Baker?) come up on the elevator. Did he hear the elevator operating and assume it was Baker (and Truly) who used it? Was someone using the elevator at that time (Dougherty?). Remember Sandra Styles claimed Adams saw the elevator cables moving when the girls descended the stairs. He stated they were standing in a position to see the stairs but saw no one other than the policeman. (Not Oswald or even Dougherty). He also stated that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and he might not notice. If at this time both elevators were supposedly locked on the 5th floor….how was that possible?

He went to 4th floor (by elevator or stairs?) and met with women there. Williams said that no one was in the SN that morning prior to break for lunch. On the sixth floor, he went to the windows on the south side "middle of the building" and saw no one "standing". He saw Frazier on 6th floor talking to Shelley between 10 and 11am. Was this Frazier asking Shelley if the men would be allowed to stop work to get to see the President if the parade
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 03:27:40 PM
Junior Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the same day, the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

As Jarman was an order checker and not part of the floor laying crew his normal work location was the first floor. He provided a time for the workers departure of approximately 11.45 and an observation that Oswald ascended sometime after 11.30am. This is consistent with Oswald being observed near the east elevator the 5th floor during the "elevator race" descent. There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and the workers on the 6th floor. He places Williams out the front of the building with the rest. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 16, 2018, 03:30:03 PM
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Essentially we have 3 possibilities.

Option 1.
Williams saw no one and just happened to vacate the 6th floor independently. He left his lunch remnants and now on day one he decides to say nothing about his return to the sixth floor, but says he went with Jarman and Norman.

Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.

Option 3. Williams sees someone other than Oswald but says nothing.

For options 2 and 3 Williams vacates the 6th floor but does not feel threatened at the time.

By the next day, someone/thing has persuaded him to inform the FBI that he visited the 6th floor for a just a few minutes around noon before joining Norman and Jarman.

Yeah, most likey he realized that his attempt to distance himself from the 6th floor was an act of stupidity and doomed to failure.

Still not buying that BRW asked the Stooges to lie for him or that they would agree to do so.

Simply doesn't make sense that a Stooge Conspiracy was hatched in the 2 - 3 minutes before they went downstairs or anytime before they gave their statements on 11/22/63.

I laughingly predicted earlier in this thread that eventually the implication that BRW saw Jack Dougherty on the 6th floor preparing for the assassination would be made - and sure enough Fratini has made my prediction a reality.

Pfffffft.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Howard it might come as a surprise to you but I am reconsidering the theory after reviewing the statements. Tony did not imply anything about Dougherty being the assassin. Did you see my post where I stated that I think Dougherty came up after BRW left?

This is a complex topic, maybe too much for you to comprehend.

PS only BRW gave a statement on 11/22. See above.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 16, 2018, 03:51:10 PM
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This is a complex topic, maybe to much for you to comprehend.


Yeah, that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.

Save the condescending remarks for someone else, bright boy.

BTW, that should be 'too' much.

Have a nice day. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 16, 2018, 03:55:23 PM
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Yeah, that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.


At last we agree on something.

PS thanks for the tip on the typo.....you might have a career there.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2018, 05:21:33 PM
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Why do you think that?

I don't "believe " that...I KNOW it is a fact.....  It's not hard to prove....  Paul Ernst has done an excellent job of showing that the rifle could not have been fired out of that half open window from inside the building, and the window would have to have been open wider if a gunman had tried to put the muzzle of the 40 inch rifle outside of the window.    So not only was it physically impossible...many witnesses would have seen the rifle and the gunman because the sound of gunfire would have caused people to look toward the sound of the gunfire just as motorcycle officer Baker did when he heard the first shot.   He looked up tpward the TSBD and saw NOBODY firing a rifle.   The reason he didn't see anybody firing a rifle is because there was nobody there firing a rifle ..There was only Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman behind the open windows on the fifth floor and nobody behind the window on the sixth floor.

The star witness for LBJ's cover up committee was Howard Brennan....  But they had to ignore his affidavit and his testimony in which he DESCRIBED what he saw on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting.   Brennan said that he saw a man who was in his thirties and weighed as much as 175 pounds and who was wearing light khaki clothing ( both shirt and trousers)  Brennan said the man was aiming a hunting rifle ( a "high powered rifle , possibly a 30-30 Winchester) out of a window that he was STANDING behind.

Brennan could NOT have been describing a man standing behind the SE corner window because it would have been impossible for a man to stand behind that half open window and aim a rifle out of it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 16, 2018, 05:57:35 PM
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Howard it might come as a surprise to you but I am reconsidering the theory after reviewing the statements. Tony did not imply anything about Dougherty being the assassin. Did you see my post where I stated that I think Dougherty came up after BRW left?

This is a complex topic, maybe too much for you to comprehend.

PS only BRW gave a statement on 11/22. See above.....

'This is a complex topic, maybe too much for you to comprehend''
>>> By making everything evermore big and complex, you lot are 'moving in the wrong direction', as Einstein put it.

KISS

Keep It Simple Sherlock.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 16, 2018, 06:03:26 PM
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I don't "believe " that...I KNOW it is a fact.....  It's not hard to prove....  Paul Ernst has done an excellent job of showing that the rifle could not have been fired out of that half open window from inside the building, and the window would have to have been open wider if a gunman had tried to put the muzzle of the 40 inch rifle outside of the window.    So not only was it physically impossible...many witnesses would have seen the rifle and the gunman because the sound of gunfire would have caused people to look toward the sound of the gunfire just as motorcycle officer Baker did when he heard the first shot.   He looked up tpward the TSBD and saw NOBODY firing a rifle.   The reason he didn't see anybody firing a rifle is because there was nobody there firing a rifle ..There was only Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman behind the open windows on the fifth floor and nobody behind the window on the sixth floor.

The star witness for LBJ's cover up committee was Howard Brennan....  But they had to ignore his affidavit and his testimony in which he DESCRIBED what he saw on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting.   Brennan said that he saw a man who was in his thirties and weighed as much as 175 pounds and who was wearing light khaki clothing ( both shirt and trousers)  Brennan said the man was aiming a hunting rifle ( a "high powered rifle , possibly a 30-30 Winchester) out of a window that he was STANDING behind.

Brennan could NOT have been describing a man standing behind the SE corner window because it would have been impossible for a man to stand behind that half open window and aim a rifle out of it.

 ::)

WallyWorld, through the wormhole.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 16, 2018, 06:07:35 PM
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I don't "believe " that...I KNOW it is a fact.....

I didn't say believe, I said think, but anyway ...... its not a fact.

Quote
It's not hard to prove....  Paul Ernst has done an excellent job of showing that the rifle could not have been fired out of that half open window from inside the building, and the window would have to have been open wider if a gunman had tried to put the muzzle of the 40 inch rifle outside of the window.    So not only was it physically impossible...many witnesses would have seen the rifle and the gunman because the sound of gunfire would have caused people to look toward the sound of the gunfire just as motorcycle officer Baker did when he heard the first shot.   He looked up tpward the TSBD and saw NOBODY firing a rifle.   The reason he didn't see anybody firing a rifle is because there was nobody there firing a rifle ..There was only Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman behind the open windows on the fifth floor and nobody behind the window on the sixth floor.

Others have done analysis to show the shots most likely came from the sixth floor SE window where the snippers nest was  Also various people described seeing a rifle being withdrawn from the window plus Jarman and others reported hearing the gunshots directly above them.

Quote
The star witness for LBJ's cover up committee was Howard Brennan....  But they had to ignore his affidavit and his testimony in which he DESCRIBED what he saw on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting.   Brennan said that he saw a man who was in his thirties and weighed as much as 175 pounds and who was wearing light khaki clothing ( both shirt and trousers)  Brennan said the man was aiming a hunting rifle ( a "high powered rifle , possibly a 30-30 Winchester) out of a window that he was STANDING behind.

Brennan could NOT have been describing a man standing behind the SE corner window because it would have been impossible for a man to stand behind that half open window and aim a rifle out of it.

So where do you think the shots were fired from?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2018, 06:09:59 PM
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::)

WallyWorld, through the wormhole.

What a lame attempt at refuting the facts.....You're pathetic, Chappy.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tom Sorensen on September 16, 2018, 07:15:00 PM
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I don’t think he saw Oswald as JohnM has proposed. He had every chance to inform them of his sighting at the DPD that afternoon when questioned. He had an alibi with Norman and Jarman. However, I don’t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental. With Williams in place on the 6th by 12.15pm a shooter simply would have found an alternate spot, likely the 7th floor directly above the SN.

Oswald would have been there from the outset, he knew the building, he would have the storage room to himself.

Windows with blinds he could pull down to avoid the sun in his eyes. The 6th floor crew might return any time if the motorcade ran late....the worst floor he could have chosen.

Worth noting that Jarman's affidavit is all about Lee and not about shots from the 6th floor. Wow.

Also worth noting is the huge delay in getting anything in writing from Norman who supposedly heard the shots.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2018, 07:17:27 PM
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..just came across this.....
Didn't Victoria Adams and her friend Sandra Styles testify that they entered the stairwell on the 4th floor approximately 20 seconds after the third shot?
The Warren Commission jackals completely ignored their statements. Why?
Because Oswald must have seemingly turned into the invisible man and went right by them.
Those other guys?...Who cared that their stories were all contradictory? The cops had their man!
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
 
 
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 16, 2018, 07:55:22 PM
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Didn't Victoria Adams and her friend Sandra Styles testify that they entered the stairwell on the 4th floor approximately 20 seconds after the third shot?
The Warren Commission jackals completely ignored their statements. Why?
Because Oswald must have seemingly turned into the invisible man and went right by them.
Those other guys?...Who cared that their stories were all contradictory? The cops had their man!
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)

As I understand it the trouble with their timings is that Adams said when they got to the first floor they met Shelley and Lovelady, but they had been watching from the steps of the TSBD then gone up to the tracks behind it before going to the bottom of the stairs. This was several minutes later, and they said they saw Truly (and an officer)going into the building whilst they were outside.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 16, 2018, 08:08:22 PM
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I didn't say believe, I said think, but anyway ...... its not a fact.

Others have done analysis to show the shots most likely came from the sixth floor SE window where the snippers nest was  Also various people described seeing a rifle being withdrawn from the window plus Jarman and others reported hearing the gunshots directly above them.

So where do you think the shots were fired from?

Do your own research and reasoning....Don't rely on "others"   ...who claim the shots "most likely" came from the SE corner window.   And there was NO sniper's nest....at that site.   Some loafer employee ( Givens?)  had constructed a hidden "Smokers Nook" behind that window as a place he could loaf, and smoke out of sight of the boss.   The police found a couple of spent shells there where they had been planted and assumed the site was a "Sniper's Nest" where the gunman had sat on a box and used a stack of boxes as a rifle steady rest ...in spite of the fact that the gunman could not have declined the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street if he had rested the rifle on top of the stack of boxes as Deputy Mooney imagined.

The shots came from the Grassy Knoll.....   LBJ and Hoover worked hard to divert the attention from the GK.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 16, 2018, 08:21:27 PM
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Do your own research and reasoning....Don't rely on "others" 

Aren't you relying on the work of Paul Ernst?

Quote
...who claim the shots "most likely" came from the SE corner window.   And there was NO sniper's nest....at that site.   Some loafer employee ( Givens?)  had constructed a hidden "Smokers Nook" behind that window as a place he could loaf, and smoke out of sight of the boss.   The police found a couple of spent shells there where they had been planted and assumed the site was a "Sniper's Nest" where the gunman had sat on a box and used a stack of boxes as a rifle steady rest ...in spite of the fact that the gunman could not have declined the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street if he had rested the rifle on top of the stack of boxes as Deputy Mooney imagined.

The shots came from the Grassy Knoll.....   LBJ and Hoover worked hard to divert the attention from the GK.....

You are free to believe all that of course but those are opinions and beliefs, not facts.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
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Didn't Victoria Adams and her friend Sandra Styles testify that they entered the stairwell on the 4th floor approximately 20 seconds after the third shot?
The Warren Commission jackals completely ignored their statements. Why?
Because Oswald must have seemingly turned into the invisible man and went right by them.
Those other guys?...Who cared that their stories were all contradictory? The cops had their man!
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)

Neither Victoria nor Sandra would have seen anyone descending from the 6th floor because the NW STAIRWELL was a closed one between floors. You had to go onto the landing of each room in order to get to the next stairwell.

The key witnesses were the remaining 6 women on the fourth floor and where they were immediately post shots. One in particular could have destroyed the LNer hypothesis- Dorothy Garner.

Only Victoria Adams was called up to testify despite the Stroud document.

When BRW came down from the fifth floor he recalled seeing women looking out the windows on the fourth floor.

Allen Dulles was unaware that there was anyone on the Fourth floor. There were in fact 8 women.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 16, 2018, 09:09:18 PM
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Oswald would have been there from the outset, he knew the building, he would have the storage room to himself.

Windows with blinds he could pull down to avoid the sun in his eyes. The 6th floor crew might return any time if the motorcade ran late....the worst floor he could have chosen.

Worth noting that Jarman's affidavit is all about Lee and not about shots from the 6th floor. Wow.

Also worth noting is the huge delay in getting anything in writing from Norman who supposedly heard the shots.

The gunman was first seen in the SW corner of the 6th floor where there was a fully opened window and no barricade to hide in. BRW was in the SE corner.

Who ever the gunman was, was clearly unaware that he was not alone on the 6th floor.

In order for the gunman to occupy the SE corner, BRW had to vacate it by the time the Parade was due to pass - at 12.25 pm. He did.

How convenient, timing wise, for the gunman.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2018, 09:23:39 PM
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As I understand it the trouble with their timings is that Adams said when they got to the first floor they met Shelley and Lovelady, but they had been watching from the steps of the TSBD then gone up to the tracks behind it before going to the bottom of the stairs. This was several minutes later, and they said they saw Truly (and an officer)going into the building whilst they were outside.
Quote
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
-----------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - Correct.
-------------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm

So who was Truly with? Was he with Shelley or was he with Lovelady or was he with a cop?
Who was Shelley with? Truly or Lovelady?
The Stooges vs Laurel and Hardy
Stanley...why can't you ever get your story straight?  (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 01:48:11 AM
As you may remember things changed on Novemeber 24th. Oswald is killed by Ruby.

The next significant event that occurs for the Norman, Jarman and Williams occurs on the Monday the 25th when Carl Day visits the TSBD and enquires about the chicken lunch.

Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified to the WC.


Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 17, 2018, 02:02:22 AM
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As you may remember things changed on Novemeber 24th. Oswald is killed by Ruby.

The next significant event that occurs for the Norman, Jarman and Williams occurs on the Monday the 25th when Carl Day visits the TSBD and enquires about the chicken lunch.

Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified to the WC.

Mr Truly even informed Hoover who they could and couldn't fingerprint.

What is baffling is that the DP, had in its possession, the chicken lunch sack, Dr Pepper bottle, cigarette packet and the window weather sill strip - none of which were handed over to the FBI on Friday evening despite being informed to "hand everything over".

Why?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 02:40:18 AM
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BRW wasn't getting a death sentence for admitting he was on the 6th floor, 5 minutes before the shots were fired.

He had an iron clad alibi for his presence on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.

Bingo.  We have a winner.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 02:45:15 AM
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Bingo.  We have a winner.

Frazier had an ion clad alibi for the time of the shots too.......nice try but no cigar. It's not was he was going to get, it's what he thought he might be in for......all in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 02:49:37 AM
The next day.....

Norman was not interviewed by the DPD immediately after the assassination. He was interviewed by the FBI on the 26th of November, the Tuesday following the assassination. That report appears below.

(https://image.ibb.co/hz4Lez/Norman_nov.jpg)

As we saw with Jarman's initial statements there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor. Interestingly, he stated that after the first shot he stuck his head out the window and looked upward and pulled back inside after particles fell on him. There were two subsequent shots. They ran to the west end  but he returned to the original position at some later time. He did not recall seeing Oswald at any time that day.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 02:50:11 AM
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Frazier had an ion clad alibi for the time of the shots too.......nice try but no cigar.

Not the same thing.

Bonnie Ray Williams didn't give the accused assassin a ride to work that morning.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 03:00:07 AM
So to summarise the first week following the assassination.

On day one Williams has claimed to have gone up with Norman and Jarman to watch from the 5th floor and that shortly after arriving the motorcade passed by. This was a DPD affidavit.

The next day he told the FBI that he briefly visited the 6th floor for a few minutes around noon before joining the others.

The same day Jarman's DPD affidavit says that Williams was outside around noon with the others. Nothing about any of the going to the 5th floor.

On the Sunday Oswald is killed in police custody.

On the Monday, Day discovers the lunch remnants are not those of the assassin but Williams informs him they were his.

On the Tuesday Norman is interviewed by the FBI and confirms Williams that the three watched the motorcade from the 5th floor.


Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 03:02:02 AM
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Not the same thing.

Bonnie Ray Williams didn't give the accused assassin a ride to work that morning.

No but his prints were allover the what the police claimed was "assassins lunch".
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 17, 2018, 03:28:46 AM
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Bingo.  We have a winner.

Why then the first day failure to mention where he had eaten his lunch?

Why the strong arm tactics on Arnold Rowland on seeing the African-American male on the 6th floor?

BRW had every right to be in the SE corner of the 6th floor to view the Parade.

However were the DP going to believe he saw and heard no one while up the 6th floor after 12 noon?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 17, 2018, 03:34:38 AM
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Not the same thing.

Bonnie Ray Williams didn't give the accused assassin a ride to work that morning.

That's true, but he was the last closet person to where the shots were fired from some 5 minutes prior and he failed to disclose where he was. In addition, he vacated the 6th floor at the time the motorcade was actually due.

What made BRW vacate the 6th floor?

We don't know where Dougherty was just prior and just after the shots were fired.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 04:23:10 AM
As far as I can tell you are still the loner Howard.

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that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.

Have you come up with a reverse-gorilla experiment to support your shared false memory theory yet?

KISS indeed.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 04:27:19 AM
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The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.

Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.


These clowns are so predictable.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 04:39:57 AM
I can guarantee that no one will suggest that Dougherty was the shooter or was involved in any conspiracy to shoot JFK.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 04:49:22 AM
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I can guarantee that no one will suggest that Dougherty was the shooter or was involved in any conspiracy to shoot JFK.

Better talk to your BFF then.

"What made BRW vacate the 6th floor?

We don't know where Dougherty was just prior and just after the shots were fired."

Now what, Einstein ?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 05:23:28 AM
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No but his prints were allover the what the police claimed was "assassins lunch".

Which takes us right back to Williams having an iron clad alibi.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 05:26:24 AM
Does not rule out as a potential accomplice.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 05:29:27 AM
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Does not rule out as a potential accomplice.

So is that what this is all about?  Bonnie Ray Williams was a possible accomplice?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 05:53:15 AM
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So is that what this is all about?  Bonnie Ray Williams was a possible accomplice?

No Bill. It's what BRW thought he might be implicated in given he was in the SN about 5 minutes or so before the shots. Also his chicken remnants and pop bottle had been subsequently referred to as the "assassin's lunch". The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 17, 2018, 06:04:53 AM
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As far as I can tell you are still the loner Howard.

Have you come up with a reverse-gorilla experiment to support your shared false memory theory yet?

KISS indeed.

Revisit post #201 if you will, and note that I used 'Sherlock' in place of 'Stupid'
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 06:14:20 AM
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Revisit post #201 if you will, and note that I used 'Sherlock' in place of 'Stupid'

Bill, visit post#230. I acknowledge you have more class.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 17, 2018, 06:14:52 AM
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No Bill. It's what BRW thought he might be implicated in given he was in the SN about 5 minutes or so before the shots. Also his chicken remnants and pop bottle had been subsequently referred to as the "assassin's lunch". The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.

BRW testified that he arrived on the 6th at noon to eat his lunch, and was there '10, 12, 15' minutes I recall. Seems that gives him time to go downstairs then go up to the 5th with the others. And enough time for Oswald to show up in the SW corner, spotted playing soldier boy.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 17, 2018, 06:23:18 AM
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BRW testified that he arrived on the 6th at noon ate his and was there '10, 12, 15' minutes I recall. Seems that gives him time to go downstairs then go up to the 5th with the others. And enough time for Oswald to show up in the SW corner, spotted playing soldier boy.

Except none of that happened. BRW was still on the 6th floor at ~12.25 pm and went down to the 5th floor because he heard movement coming from below him.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2wrojfr.jpg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 06:26:13 AM
Need to back track a bit. Jarman was interviewed by the FBI on the 24th.....the day Oswald was killed.

(https://preview.ibb.co/c00csK/Jarman_FBI_a.jpg)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nD77sK/Jarman_FBIb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/co77sK)

This statement is consistent with his DPD statement the previous day. The additional information largely centres on his presence on the fifth floor, who he was with at the time of the shots and his recollection of what happened immediately after. They talked about the location of the shots. In particular his recall of the positioning of himself and co-workers at the window is precise and accurate compared to the imprecise and inaccurate nature of Bonnie Ray.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 06:28:44 AM
The next interviews were conducted by the Secret Service and occurred in the first week of December. They are included in WC Document 87.

(https://preview.ibb.co/cuuH9z/Williams_SS.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iSQPpz)

In this interview less than two weeks after the assassination Williams recalls the elevator race as they broke for lunch and Oswald calling for the lift. On the 6th floor he sat at windows "in the centre of the building". A Dr Pepper bottle and chicken bones were left together on the floor. He didn't see or hear anyone and only ate his lunch for a few minutes. The lunch was "finished", not partially eaten, and he left immediately for the 5th floor before 12.15pm. (Note 12.15 is mentioned specifically!). Heard only two shots coming from 6th floor but did not hear shells and bolt action. They went to west side windows and discussed what they should do as the shots had come from the 6th floor.
A policeman was seen near the stairway but Williams did not know if he was going up or down (note no mention of arrival by the elevator now). After five minutes they took the stairs down.

This interview  essentially provided a similar story he told the FBI the day after the assassination except for some minor variance and added details. He now described the lunch consisting of a chicken bone sandwich and a Dr Pepper. He has been given the free pass by Day on the 25th November after Williams initial FBI interview. Day may have (inadvertently) provided a description of the final position of the chicken and bottle as found around 2pm on November 22 during that discussion.
Significantly he is sure he left before 12.15pm. No doubt there has been much talk between the TSBD workers of the events of November 22 and Oswald in the days since it occurred. Apparently he abandoned the idea of moving the lunchbreak earlier by 20 minutes. By this time the others members of the floor laying crew have been interviewed and they generally agreed the elevator race occurred at about 11.50am. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 07:01:51 AM
Jarman was interviewed by the SS in the first week of December. His statement also formed part of WC document 87.


(https://preview.ibb.co/egwiXK/Jarman_ss.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ewNe6e)

Again Jarman said he saw Oswald take the elevator up sometime after 11.30am. The floor laying crew came down just before noon. After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor.  He heard three shots but did not hear shells and bolt. They ran to the to the windows on the west side of the fifth floor after the shots. They discussed what they should do as they knew shots came from above and decided it was too dangerous to go to 6th floor. They waited 5 minutes before taking the stairs the  down. He did not see the policeman (Baker) but remembered a woman on the fourth floor looking out the window.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 17, 2018, 07:24:32 AM
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So is that what this is all about?  Bonnie Ray Williams was a possible accomplice?

I don't believe anyone is stating that BRW was a possible accomplice/co-conspirator except this is what the WR concluded about Arnold's observation.

"One witness, however, offered testimony which, if accurate, would create the possibility of an accomplice at the window at the time of the assassination. The witness was 18-year-old Arnold Rowland, who testified in great detail concerning his activities and observations on November 22, 1963."

Why did they conclude that?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 07:31:05 AM
Here is Norman's Affidavit and the Extract from CD87 for comparison.

AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
/s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service

(https://preview.ibb.co/hJjCsK/norman_ss.jpg)

Norman now recalled sighting Oswald about 10am on the first floor. After eating his lunch he went with Jarman and Williams to the fifth floor about 12.15pm. Note that Jarman eventually provided a time for the ascent to the fifth floor in his January FBI statement as 12.25pm. They went to the SE corner to watch the motorcade. After the first shot he stuck his head out the window as it appeared to be from directly above his position. He heard three shots and they ran to the west side of the building. They discussed what to do and eventually left the building about 5 minutes later via the stairs.
By the middle of January the problem of Rowland's time of 12.15pm for the sighting of a gunman on the sixth floor must have been an issue for the investigators. Williams had told of visiting the sixth floor the day after the assassination, but we have statements provided from both Norman and Jarman that Williams accompanied them on the trip to the fifth floor.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 07:41:05 AM
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No Bill. It's what BRW thought he might be implicated in given he was in the SN about 5 minutes or so before the shots. Also his chicken remnants and pop bottle had been subsequently referred to as the "assassin's lunch". The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.

Quote
The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.

So now what?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 07:42:48 AM
Williams FBI interview Jan 14, 1964

(https://preview.ibb.co/k74Rme/williams_FBI_jan.jpg)

Williams interviewed again by the FBI about five weeks after the SS interviewed him. Williams again moved the time they broke for lunch earlier by claiming the elevator race occurred at 11.40am and stated he ate lunch on the 6th floor at noon. Note the consistency in a 20 minute interval between departing and arriving back on the 6th floor. Once again he recalled staying only a few minutes, leaving at 12.05pm, before joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor. In this interview he told that the motivation for going down was that he heard them below. According to this revised timeline he spends about 25 minutes with them before the motorcade arrives. Compare this with his first day statement, taken about 2 hours after the shots, where he stated that "just after we got on the 5th floor the motorcade arrived". In this report he further distanced himself from 12.15pm by effectively moving the departure time from the 6th floor back from 12.13 to 12.05!

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 07:44:22 AM
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So now what?

Did you read the OP?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 07:56:10 AM
On Jan 14 the FBI also interviewed Jarman
(https://preview.ibb.co/deFVez/Jarman_FBI_jan.jpg)

In this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon. This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25. Clearly serious issues are appearing regarding difference in the statements between Williams and Jarman in their movements before the shooting. Williams in his November 23 interview told (perhaps reluctantly) of his trip to eat lunch to the 6th floor before meeting up with Norman and Jarman. Now, seven weeks after the shooting, Jarman's version would have the three men together from the break for lunch until the time of the shots.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 07:58:14 AM
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Did you read the OP?

I've read the entire thread.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 17, 2018, 09:42:40 AM
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I've read the entire thread.

So it’s up to you. If you think the three attempted to protect BRW when did that original discussion occur? The question is in the OP.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:03:42 PM
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You've truly lost it John, how is presenting a long list of corroborated evidence being dishonest?

You know damn well why it's dishonest.  You posted a picture of the backyard photos and captioned it "Oswald possessed the rifle".  But you haven't proven that the rifle in the backyard photos is the same rifle, and neither has anybody else.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:07:21 PM
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Oh by the way, the HSCA team of experts came to the same conclusion.

You know what else McNally said?

"It is standard practice in the profession of questioned document examination to make definitive conclusions only about documents examined in their original."

That's how you take a conclusion that's unscientific and biased to begin with and make it even less scientific.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/fd/f0/22fdf0b4e7a3d42c0aa377bff8bccc59.jpg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:08:45 PM
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Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.


That smudge that Detective Day imagined to be a "Palm Print" was lifted from the foregrip of the carcano  in the TSBD at about 1:45 pm that afternoon.  Reporter Tom Alyea watched as Day lifted that smudge and place the cellophane tape on a index card, and then scribble the pertinent information on the card.    That card was listed as item number 14 on the evidence inventory list for midnight 11/22/63.   The FBI received that card on Saturday 11/23/63 and examined it....the FBI report said that the smudge was useless for identification purposes.

Yes, Walt, we all know the story that you have fabricated around this.  Too bad your evidence list is undated, and you don't actually know when the FBI received it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:14:44 PM
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No Rob wrong again, according to Kleins records the catalog number C20-T750 exactly matched a rifle with Serial number C2766, you know the same rifle with Oswald's prints that was found on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace.

The rifle allegedly found on the 6th floor is not a carbine.

"rifle with Oswald's prints".  LOL.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:17:04 PM
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Your opinion over those of handwriting experts? It's a no-brainer.

Well, astrology experts said that it was not Oswald, because his moon was in Virgo.  The dowsing experts and the I-Ching experts were divided.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:20:39 PM
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Please desist with your "supporting evidence" garbage because you're not fooling anyone.

Not only was all the Hidell handwriting matched to Oswald but he also had the Hidell ID in his wallet and the negative used to manufacture the ID was found in Oswald's possessions. Game Over Pal, game over!

Speaking of not fooling anyone....

Prove those negatives were used to manufacture that ID.  There is no "Hidell" anywhere on those negatives.  Next prove that those were "Oswald's possessions" and how you know that.

There was zero mention by anyone of a "Hidell" ID until after the Klein's order was dug up.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:38:56 PM
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You missed the point and have taken your quotes out of context, much like Oswald finally admitting that he came down from the 6th floor,

More blatant dishonesty from "Mytton".  Oswald never admitted that he came down from the 6th floor.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 06:40:22 PM
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I did know, actually. I'm not a robot that remembers levery detail, especially a detail that doesn't change the fact that Marina laughed at his getup in the photos.

That doesn't stop you from being arrogant about the things you don't remember correctly.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
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Well, astrology experts said that it was not Oswald, because his moon was in Virgo. 

Well, that settles it then. Those astrology experts have provided the best exculpatory evidence yet.

Forget about the expert testimony and the physical and circumstantial evidence pointing to Saint Patsy's guilt. That's all meaningless and worthless.

Plus I just opened a fortune cookie that said it wasn't Oswald.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 17, 2018, 06:43:59 PM
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Yes, Walt, we all know the story that you have fabricated around this.  Too bad your evidence list is undated, and you don't actually know when the FBI received it.

The evidence inventory list does not have to have a date and time stamped on it if the examiner of the list is reasonably intelligent and can see that the original list does not identify the rifle as a "carcano carbine" because at midnight 11 /22/63 they did not know that the rifle was a Mannlicher Carcano.....  (but on Saturday 11/23/63 they learned the rifle was called a Carcano)

And the original EI sheet listed item number six as....quote...." .38 cal pistol  2 inch barrel    That's all nothing more ....

Whereas the "updated sheet" adds additional information which says that the pistol was released to FBI  on 11 /22/63 and again on 11/26/63.

So the original sheet corroborates the "updated sheet of 11/26/63 by saying the gun was released to the FBI on 11/ 22/ 63 ...and sure enough that pistol IS listed on the evidence list on which the police did not yet know that the rifle was a Carcano.

Item number 14 on that original evidence inventory list is the... Quote..." 1 Partial palm " Off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip" on rifle #C, 2766 

The words ..."Off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip"  are in quotaion marks because they are being quoted from the 3 X 5 indwx card on which Lt Day had placed the cellophane tape that held the smudge that he imagined to be a print which he lifted from the foregrip of the carcano while examining it in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon.  Tom Alyea was right ther watching as Day lifted that smuge and placed it on that index card.

 
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 06:44:51 PM
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Well, astrology experts said that it was not Oswald, because his moon was in Virgo.  The dowsing experts and the I-Ching experts were divided.

Do you consider hand writing analysis to be no more accurate than dowsing or astrology then?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 07:02:30 PM
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Well, that settles it then. Those astrology experts have provided the best exculpatory evidence yet.

Forget about the expert testimony and the physical and circumstantial evidence pointing to Saint Patsy's guilt. That's all meaningless and worthless.

Plus I just opened a fortune cookie that said it wasn't Oswald.

Exactly.  That's about as useful as your "expert" handwriting "analysis".
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 07:04:08 PM
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Do you consider hand writing analysis to be no more accurate than dowsing or astrology then?

Correct.  They are all unscientific and subjective.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 07:08:04 PM
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Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.

If BRW had seen Oswald there, why would he have not just said so?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 07:21:09 PM
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Exactly.  That's about as useful as your "expert" handwriting "analysis".

And fingerprint and ballistic and photographic experts too, no doubt.

All worthless.

Yawn.



Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 08:16:16 PM
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And fingerprint and ballistic and photographic experts too, no doubt.

So you think there is fingerprint, ballistic, and photographic analysis that demonstrates that Oswald shot JFK?

Do tell.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 08:36:21 PM
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So you think there is fingerprint, ballistic, and photographic analysis that demonstrates that Oswald shot JFK?

Do tell.

I don't THINK there's fingerprint, ballistic and photographic evidence that demonstrates Saint Patsy assassinated JFK, I KNOW there is.

Sorry Trolletti, not going to waste time going over the evidence again with you.

What's the point of doing so ?

For example: No need to rehash all the evidence that shows that your hero ordered, paid for, and possessed C2766 only to have you insist there is no such evidence so you can troll the forum with "Oswald's rifle, LOL" for the billionth time.

Be gone, Troll.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 09:17:55 PM
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I don't THINK there's fingerprint, ballistic and photographic evidence that demonstrates Saint Patsy assassinated JFK, I KNOW there is.

Sorry Trolletti, not going to waste time going over the evidence again with you.

Of course you're not.  You're so transparent.

Quote
For example: No need to rehash all the evidence that shows that your hero ordered, paid for, and possessed C2766 only to have you insist there is no such evidence so you can troll the forum with "Oswald's rifle, LOL" for the billionth time.

Even if there was such evidence (something more than unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of two block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order blank), that still doesn't get you to "Oswald shot JFK".

I know you wish it did.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 18, 2018, 01:48:10 AM
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For JohnM......just came across this.....

In this FBI statement Williams claimed he heard Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.

(https://preview.ibb.co/cYLywe/287_ACA24_EE63_44_F8_ABAA_1_C284_CC5299_C.jpg)

Thanks Colin, I knew BRW said this somewhere and perhaps the reason he was reticent to mention the voices is because the best position to distinguish who was who would be from directly above and since BRW had committed himself to sitting somewhere in the middle, how clear would those voices be from so far away?

Btw thanks for posting all those affidavits and FBI reports it's good to have them in the one place.

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 18, 2018, 02:16:40 AM
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Thanks Colin, I knew BRW said this somewhere and perhaps the reason he was reticent to mention the voices is because the best position to distinguish who was who would be from directly above and since BRW had committed himself to sitting somewhere in the middle, how clear would those voices be from so far away?

Btw thanks for posting all those affidavits and FBI reports it's good to have them in the one place.

JohnM

Even better -

Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.
Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?
Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.
Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?
Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

The ideal place for BRW to hear Norman and Jarman in the SE corner of the 5th floor was exactly where Arnold had seen the African American tall, slim male in the SE corner of the 6th floor - the "SN".

The same place his chicken lunch remnants were initially observed by Mooney and Hill.

BRW was in the SN eating his chicken lunch and vacated the floor at ~12.25 pm.

Both Norman and Jarman would have been directly under where BRW was in the "SN" from 12.15 - 12.25 pm

Arnold no longer saw the African American male in the "SN" after 12.25 pm because he (BRW) vacated the 6th floor to join Norman and Jarman on the floor below directly below where he was.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2qu5car.jpg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Mytton on September 18, 2018, 02:56:13 AM
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Even better -

Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.
Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?
Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.
Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?
Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

The ideal place for BRW to hear Norman and Jarman in the SE corner of the 5th floor was exactly where Arnold had seen the African American tall, slim male in the SE corner of the 6th floor - the "SN".

The same place his chicken lunch remnants were initially observed by Mooney and Hill.

BRW was in the SN eating his chicken lunch and vacated the floor at ~12.25 pm.

Both Norman and Jarman would have been directly under where BRW was in the "SN" from 12.15 - 12.25 pm

Arnold no longer saw the African American male in the "SN" after 12.25 pm because he (BRW) vacated the 6th floor to join Norman and Jarman on the floor below directly below where he was.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2qu5car.jpg)

 Thumb1:

He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service [sic] men. This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arowland.htm

JohnM
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 18, 2018, 03:10:22 AM
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Thumb1:

He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service [sic] men. This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arowland.htm

JohnM

Do you agree that the tall, slim African American male that Arnold Rowland saw in the SE corner of the 6th floor from 12.15 pm - 12.25 pm was in fact BRW?

Time to get off the fence JohnM.  Thumb1:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1261.msg30887.html#msg30887

BTW, in regards to the white male

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, that you resigned yourself to that task?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at his face.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 25975-25979). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with identification of the man that I saw.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify him.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 26013-26015). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 19, 2018, 01:23:42 PM
Go to 43 minute mark.....youngster (likely Euins) reporting of a coloured man shooting.......

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 07:04:58 PM
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Go to 43 minute mark.....youngster (likely Euins) reporting of a coloured man shooting.......

Yes, that was James Underwood reporting there.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2018, 08:37:09 PM
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Yes, that was James Underwood reporting there.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.


What did Underwood hear?.....  Was Euins saying that he saw a black man leaning out of a window ( Bonnie Ray Williams) And Euins (who didn't speak clearly)  also said something about a man with a rifle.....  Was Euins referring to one man??   
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 09:10:38 PM
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What did Underwood hear?.....  Was Euins saying that he saw a black man leaning out of a window ( Bonnie Ray Williams) And Euins (who didn't speak clearly)  also said something about a man with a rifle.....  Was Euins referring to one man??

Where did you get the idea that Euins didn't speak clearly?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2018, 09:14:26 PM
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Where did you get the idea that Euins didn't speak clearly?

As I recall Amos Euins had a speech impediment..... a lisp or something.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 09:38:19 PM
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As I recall Amos Euins had a speech impediment..... a lisp or something.....

Doesn't sound like it to me.


Note, by the way, he says "pipe", not "rifle".
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2018, 10:29:37 PM
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Doesn't sound like it to me.


Note, by the way, he says "pipe", not "rifle".

Thank you....But I would still argue that Euins did NOT speak clearly and enunciate his words clearly....

And as you point out he said he saw a "pipe" .......   Makes me wonder "WHAT" the object was????
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 20, 2018, 02:02:58 AM
There are some more documents that I need to add that relate to the OP and will do so when I get some time to do so.

However I would like to make the following observation. The vast majority who responded in the thread thought it likely, that given the circumstances, Norman and Jarman would lie to help Williams. We have early reports that a coloured man was reported as being involved in the shooting. Also it was widely broadcast that the assassin had lunch while waiting for the President. Without the corroborating evidence provided by the Dillard photo.......how good an alibi would it be for Norman and Jarman just saying Williams was with them at the time?

Up until Oswald's death Williams had only this for corroboration provided by Jarman's initial affidavit

"At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."

Also Willliams had changed his original story from going up with the others on the west elevator and after a few minutes the parade arrived to going to the 6th floor by himself and joining the others almost half an hour before the motorcade by the next day.

 
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Tony Fratini on September 20, 2018, 03:09:43 AM
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There are some more documents that I need to add that relate to the OP and will do so when I get some time to do so.

However I would like to make the following observation. The vast majority who responded in the thread thought it likely, that given the circumstances, Norman and Jarman would lie to help Williams. We have early reports that a coloured man was reported as being involved in the shooting. Also it was widely broadcast that the assassin had lunch while waiting for the President. Without the corroborating evidence provided by the Dillard photo.......how good an alibi would it be for Norman and Jarman just saying Williams was with them at the time?

Up until Oswald's death Williams had only this for corroboration provided by Jarman's initial affidavit

"At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."

Also Willliams had changed his original story from going up with the others on the west elevator and after a few minutes the parade arrived to going to the 6th floor by himself and joining the others almost half an hour before the motorcade by the next day.

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head.
Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?
Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head.

It is important to mention that Amos was in front of the TSBD at about 12.10/12.15 pm - at a time that Arnold Rowland first saw the African American male in the SE corner of the 6th floor at 12.15 pm.

Did Amos in fact initially see the same African American male prior to seeing the "pipe" sticking out of the SE corner at 12.30 pm?

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have marked with an "A"?
Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like that to 12, because my mother brought me down there. Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself?
Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by?
Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about—I had been there about 15, maybe 20 minutes. It come around the corner, come on around.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men—yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice.

The only "colored man" who was on the 6th floor prior to 12.25 pm was Bonnie Ray Williams.

Of course there was a "colored" man directly under the SE corner window on the 5th floor at the time the shots were being fired.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.



Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2018, 01:55:13 PM
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Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head.
Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?
Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head.

It is important to mention that Amos was in front of the TSBD at about 12.10/12.15 pm - at a time that Arnold Rowland first saw the African American male in the SE corner of the 6th floor at 12.15 pm.

Did Amos in fact initially see the same African American male prior to seeing the "pipe" sticking out of the SE corner at 12.30 pm?

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have marked with an "A"?
Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like that to 12, because my mother brought me down there. Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself?
Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by?
Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about—I had been there about 15, maybe 20 minutes. It come around the corner, come on around.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men—yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice.

The only "colored man" who was on the 6th floor prior to 12.25 pm was Bonnie Ray Williams.

Of course there was a "colored" man directly under the SE corner window on the 5th floor at the time the shots were being fired.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.


Tony, Do you suppose that Euins became a bit confused due to all of the conflicting stories that were swirling in Dealey Plaza in the immediate aftermath of the coup d e'tat.  ???

I suspect that the colored man that Euins saw was BRW on the fifth floor....and I believe the event of the "pipe like thing" ( silencer on a rifle barrel?) sticking out of the window happened a few minutes prior to the gunfire.  Is it possible that Euins saw the "pipe" at the same moment that James Powell took his photo of the TSBD?   Which was taken at the time a "epileptic seizure" victim was being loaded in to an ambulance)   In the excitement and confusion of the moment did Euins combine the separate events?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 20, 2018, 02:57:57 PM
The point of me introducing the early report was to show how Williams may have been influenced by the early events. His occupation of the SN just before the shots, his lunch being referred to as the assassin’s lunch and reports of a coloured shooter. I am unsure whether Williams ever heard this early report by Underwood but certainly by 2pm he is distancing himself from the 6th floor completely in his statement by lying that he ascended to watch the parade with the others.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Jack Nessan on September 20, 2018, 03:19:31 PM
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The point of me introducing the early report was to show how Williams may have been influenced by the early events. His occupation of the SN just before the shots, his lunch being referred to as the assassin’s lunch and reports of a coloured shooter. I am unsure whether Williams ever heard this early report by Underwood but certainly by 2pm he is distancing himself from the 6th floor completely in his statement by lying that he ascended to watch the parade with the others.

BRW knew the shots had come from above him the same as Jarman and Norman. Nobody had to tell them, they were scene looking up at the SN from where LHO had just fired the shots . BRW ate his lunch by the third set of windows where the crime scene photo's showed he was sitting.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Colin Crow on September 20, 2018, 03:25:48 PM
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BRW knew the shots had come from above him the same as Jarman and Norman. Nobody had to tell them, they were scene looking up at the SN from where LHO had just fired the shots . BRW ate his lunch by the third set of windows where the crime scene photo's showed he was sitting.

Please read the OP so you can respond to the the argument proposed. The crime scene photos don’t show Williams sitting anywhere. Just where his lunch remnants were moved to. Then they were photographed around the time he was being interviewed at DPD.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 04:59:41 PM
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Is it possible that Euins saw the "pipe" at the same moment that James Powell took his photo of the TSBD?

No, because Powell's photo was taken after the assassination.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2018, 07:29:29 PM
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No, because Powell's photo was taken after the assassination.

What proof do you have that the Powell photo was taken AFTER the murder?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 07:56:43 PM
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What proof do you have that the Powell photo was taken AFTER the murder?

I didn't say I had proof, but there's no reason to think it was taken before or during (your fabricated "rifle" sighting, and your "shadow readings" notwithstanding).  What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2018, 08:16:43 PM
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I didn't say I had proof, but there's no reason to think it was taken before or during (your fabricated "rifle" sighting, and your "shadow readings" notwithstanding).  What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?

I believe I've told you.....  Powell took the photo just minutes before the murder....His job was to take a photo of the face of the TSBD a couple of minutes before the motorcade passed by.   The photo was intended to be "photographic proof" that Lee Oswald had fired AT AT  JFK......  The photo shows something that could be a gun barrel sticking out of the SE corner window....

Powell didn't have a clue WHY he was ordered to take a photo of the building at the time that the ambulance was picking up the epileptic seizure victim....but he did take the picture.

Powell was as gullible as LHO....and did as he was ordered and kept his mouth shut.

If Tom Dillard hadn't spoiled the plot by inadvertently taking a photo DURING the shooting which showed that there was NOBODY behind that window at the time of the shooting the conspirators would have published the Powell photo with the caption...."Witness photographically captures Lee Harrrrrvey Ossssswald in the act of assassinating President Kennedy."


Tom Dillard wrecked the plot......Hoover's henchmen were forced to hid the Powell photo, and  juggle the chronology of Dillard's photo.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 08:19:13 PM
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I believe I've told you.....  Powell took the photo just minutes before the murder....His job was to take a photo of the face of the TSBD a couple of minutes before the motorcade passed by.   The photo was intended to be "photographic proof" that Lee Oswald had fired AT AT  JFK......  The photo shows something that could be a gun barrel sticking out of the SE corner window....

Yes, I know your story.  What missing is any evidence that it's actually true.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2018, 09:08:12 PM
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Yes, I know your story.  What missing is any evidence that it's actually true.

If you knew..Then why did you ask this question?

What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 09:18:28 PM
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If you knew..Then why did you ask this question?

What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?

Because I wanted to see if you actually had any evidence of Powell's foreknowledge of the assassination.  And no, you still don't.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Mark Carter on September 20, 2018, 09:51:31 PM
Jack Dougherty who worked at the TSBD building for 11 years testified to the Commission that he was on the 5th floor during the assassination and he was "alone".  There was no James Jarmin or Bonney Ray Williams. On the 5th floor during the assassination. If you study the testimony of the three young Black men that were supposedly sitting under the sixth floor snipers nest their story's are all contradictory to each other. Jack Ruby used to sponsor young Black men who worked at his club.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2018, 10:40:59 PM
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Jack Dougherty who worked at the TSBD building for 11 years testified to the Commission that he was on the 5th floor during the assassination and he was "alone".  There was no James Jarmin or Bonney Ray Williams. On the 5th floor during the assassination. If you study the testimony of the three young Black men that were supposedly sitting under the sixth floor snipers nest their story's are all contradictory to each other. Jack Ruby used to sponsor young Black men who worked at his club.

Please explain the obvious presence of the three stooges ( FBI Pawns) Williams. Jarmin, and Norman in Tom Dillard's photo which he took during the shooting.
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2018, 05:42:20 PM
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Because I wanted to see if you actually had any evidence of Powell's foreknowledge of the assassination.  And no, you still don't.

I don't know if Powell had foreknowledge of the coup d e'tat....  But I doubt that he did.   He simply knew that he was supposed to take a photo of the face of the south face of the TSBD at the time the ambulance was picking up the "epileptic  seizure" victim.   
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 21, 2018, 07:40:43 PM
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Jack Dougherty who worked at the TSBD building for 11 years testified to the Commission that he was on the 5th floor during the assassination and he was "alone".
That is what he told Joe Ball. Dougherty stated that he was all over the place--1st floor 2nd-5th-6th. He couldn't seem to remember just when and where he ate his lunch he was so shaken.
But what interested me was how intensely Ball tried to get him to say that Oswald had his sackful of rifle when he saw him that morning....
Quote
Mr. BALL - Did he [Oswald] come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.
Mr. BALL - You saw him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/doughert.htm
"Or are you guessing?" ::)
Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2018, 08:09:58 PM
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That is what he told Joe Ball. Dougherty stated that he was all over the place--1st floor 2nd-5th-6th. He couldn't seem to remember just when and where he ate his lunch he was so shaken.
But what interested me was how intensely Ball tried to get him to say that Oswald had his sackful of rifle when he saw him that morning....http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/doughert.htm
"Or are you guessing?" ::)

Ball was desperate....  He wanted to discredit Dougherty who apparently was thrown mentally off balance by the murder of JFK . 

It seems to me that Dougherty wasn't very strong mentally and the strain of the assassination made him a bit unbalanced.

Tony Fratini has pointed out that the bag that the conspirators attribute to Lee Oswald would have been HUGE and Dougherty couldn't possibly have failed to notice a huge package if Lee had been carrying one.

Ball had to have known that Dougherty couldn't have missed seeing that paper bag  IF  Lee had been carrying such a parcel...   But that didn't deter Ball from trying to coerce Dougherty into saying that he had seen Lee Oswald carrying a large paper sack.

Title: Re: Conspiracy of the Three Stooges
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 08:38:51 PM
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But what interested me was how intensely Ball tried to get him to say that Oswald had his sackful of rifle when he saw him that morning....http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/doughert.htm
"Or are you guessing?" ::)

Yeah, they were all about leading the witnesses.  See also Markham and Tomlinson and Frazier.