JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on September 13, 2018, 11:05:35 PM
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Junior Jarman
From Jarman's Affidavit 11/23/63
At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember).
FBI interview 11/24/63
No mention of the ascent to the 5th floor just that Williams and Norman were with him at the time of the motorcade.
SS interview 12/2/63
"After eating lunch Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor to watch the President pass by."
FBI interview 1/14/64
"He said that he and the other two boys (Norman and Williams) ate lunch on the first floor around 12 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade.
Harold Norman
FBI interview 11/26/63
As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.
SS interview and Affidavit 12/4/63
"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."
FBI interview 3/18/64
He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appear that he felt the shots occurred at this time.
Williams also changed his version of events on multiple occasions. When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
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I don't see the problem, at first with all the excitement they just gave a rough description and as time went on they were simply encouraged to recall more specific details.
JohnM
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I don't see the problem, at first with all the excitement they just gave a rough description and as time went on they were simply encouraged to recall more specific details.
JohnM
(https://image.ibb.co/fXHyaU/7_CA87_FDC_B079_4_FB0_AFFD_53_DA3446_DA24.jpg)
So you consider this like the information provided by Arnold Rowland? He provided more information during his WC testimony too.
Except the accounts by Jarman and Norman were consistent and specific with respect to Williams being with them prior to accompanying them upstairs before the shooting......not rough estimates. It was Williams who had to change the "story" as time went on. How do you explain that they were repeatedly independently consistent? Coincidence that they both got false memory?
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(https://image.ibb.co/fXHyaU/7_CA87_FDC_B079_4_FB0_AFFD_53_DA3446_DA24.jpg)
So you consider this like the information provided by Arnold Rowland? He provided more information during his WC testimony too.
Except the accounts by Jarman and Norman were consistent and specific with respect to Williams being with them prior to accompanying them upstairs before the shooting......not rough estimates. It was Williams who had to change the "story" as time went on. How do you explain that they were repeatedly independently consistent? Coincidence that they both got false memory?
(https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/three-stooges.jpg)
Why this silly game, all I see is question after question that can't possibly be answered to your satisfaction by anyone other than yourself?
Anyway, you clearly have already made up your mind and it's perfectly understandable why you're reluctant to reveal your alternate narrative but Man up and put your cards on the table and let's discuss that?
JohnM
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(https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/three-stooges.jpg)
Why this silly game, all I see is question after question that can't possibly be answered to your satisfaction by anyone other than yourself?
Anyway, you clearly have already made up your mind and it's perfectly understandable why you're reluctant to reveal your alternate narrative but Man up and put your cards on the table and let's discuss that?
JohnM
My original post contained a single question. I asked you further questions to allow you to further discuss your position. I have revealed my view.....clearly they lied. Your narrative is that they were mistaken in their recollection and your considered response is noted. I assume you therefore have nothing to contribute further.
The question is when they most likely agreed to deceive and therefore is for those that concur with what I propose to be the logical narrative given the circumstances.
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My original post contained a single question. I asked you further questions to allow you to further discuss your position. I have revealed my view.....clearly they lied. Your narrative is that they were mistaken in their recollection and your considered response is noted. I assume you therefore have nothing to contribute further.
The question is when they most likely agreed to deceive and therefore is for those that concur with what I propose to be the logical narrative given the circumstances.
Are you introducing a new rule on how people discuss issues here? That's more than a little presumptuous in my opinion.
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Are you introducing a new rule on how people discuss issues here? That's more than a little presumptuous in my opinion.
No.
I am here to discuss the evidence and learn. What is your opinion about the evidence posted? I'm interested.
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Okay, Colin, I removed my Escape from 6th Floor theory to start a new thread :)
I will try stay on topic of 3 Stooges and why BRW changed his story.
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Another peculiar thing is the timing of BRW leaving the 6th floor and the South EAST window rifle gunman reaching the SE window.
BRW WC testimony suggests that Harold Norman and James Jarman are ALREADY AT THEIR WINDOWS facing Elm st on the the 5th floor, when BRW got off the East elevator he took down from 6th to 5th floor, and then BRW walked up to them.
This de facto means that a SE window gunman would have had to be moving boxes, stacking them, in the SN while Harold Norman is right below.
A 6th floor gunman would have to hide on the 7th floor staircase to have been able to hear when the elevator is used by BRW, to know when to go back on the 6th floor. But he still would not know for certain until he actually moves to have LOS to the SE corner SN, and that places him getting there only AFTER Harold Norman is in place at his 5th floor window right below the SN.
How did Harold Norman not hear any of this activity, of the shooter right above him moving around boxes across the floor?
Zeon,
Williams testimony re leaving the 6th floor.....
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.
So he just left......seems he had an some notion that someone might be on the 5th and when he got there Norman and Jarman were already there.
Don't get distracted by the gunman having to move many boxes. The SN was largely assembled by the floor-laying crew.
All we know is that the motorcade was due to pass the building about 12.25pm. It was running late and Norman and Jarman decided to go to the 5th floor around 12.20 or so. Williams vacated the SN about 12.25 leaving his unfinished chicken behind. The gunman was seen in that position moment later.
After the shots the only significant sounds reported by those on the 5th floor related to the rifle firing......shots and shells dropping etc. No footsteps or elevator movements.
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Some further information to assist those in their deliberations. Williams had only worked for the TSBD since September and had been recently transferred from the other warehouse. Jarman did not even know his surname when his statement was taken. Williams was taken to the DPD after the shots.....likely between 1.30 and 2pm. This was before Oswald was around the time Oswald was arrested. He may have known Oswald was missing from the building at the time he was taken to give a statement.
While at the station Oswald was brought in and Williams was aware of the importance of the 6th floor as the likely shooting location and that Oswald was arrested and a suspect. I have no evidence that Williams interacted with Norman and Jarman later that afternoon following his release. He did not have a phone at home and there is no evidence he knew home contact details for Norman and Jarman. Most likely his next opportunity would have been on Monday 25th at work.
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(https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/three-stooges.jpg)
Why this silly game, all I see is question after question that can't possibly be answered to your satisfaction by anyone other than yourself?
Anyway, you clearly have already made up your mind and it's perfectly understandable why you're reluctant to reveal your alternate narrative but Man up and put your cards on the table and let's discuss that?
JohnM
WTF is it with these fanatical CTers. Who gives a fck about casual guesses by Jarmin etc.
FFS, eh?
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WTF is it with these fanatical CTers. Who gives a fck about casual guesses by Jarmin etc.
FFS, eh?
The long term lack of meaningful intelligent LN response is consistent behaviour. Why do you guys find these facts so threatening?
Anyway......
I can only assume that there was some conversation between the three that occurred some time after the shots but before Williams departure to give his statement......ie between 12.30 and 1.30 or so. They agreed to lie to authorities and indicate that he came with them to the 5th floor via the west elevator. Williams would be excluded from the 6th floor completely for some reason.
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Are you introducing a new rule on how people discuss issues here? That's more than a little presumptuous in my opinion.
Am I being presumptuous in anticipating you are here to meaningfully discuss the issues Steve? Or do you have other motivation?
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The long term lack of meaningful intelligent LN response is consistent behaviour. Why do you guys find these facts so threatening?
Anyway......
I can only assume that there was some conversation between the three that occurred some time after the shots but before Williams departure to give his statement......ie between 12.30 and 1.30 or so. They agreed to lie to authorities and indicate that he came with them to the 5th floor via the west elevator. Williams would be excluded from the 6th floor completely for some reason.
You can remove me from your imaginary 'threatened LNer' list.
My conclusion is that this assassination was a last minute, random event probably carried out by an oppotunistic mentally-deranged X-marine who got somewhat lucky on the head shot. No reason why Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald would need help given the simple nature of poking a rifle out a window and landing a couple of rounds on Kennedy.
You're giving a lot of credit to 3 men you call 'stooges' to even have the 'chops' to be involved in? seemingly?some sort of overly-complicated Machiavellian scheme.
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You can remove me from your imaginary 'threatened LNer' list.
My conclusion is that this assassination was a last minute, random event probably carried out by an oppotunistic mentally-deranged X-marine who got somewhat lucky on the head shot. No reason why Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald would need help given the simple nature of poking a rifle out a window and landing a couple of rounds on Kennedy.
You're giving a lot of credit to 3 men you call 'stooges' to even have the 'chops' to be involved in? seemingly?some sort of overly-complicated Machiavellian scheme.
So you do not believe the men lied in face of the documented evidence that they did. Duly noted and nothing of substance to contributed to the original question posed in the thread from you.....as expected.
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So you do not believe the men lied in face of the documented evidence that they did. Duly noted and nothing of substance to contributed to the original question posed in the thread from you.....as expected.
A lie means an intentional untruth though - is it clear that this was the case or were they confuse or unsure. Was their memory faulty?
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A lie means an intentional untruth though - is it clear that this was the case or were they confuse or unsure. Was their memory faulty?
So you are going with the theory that they both had the same faulty memory? That Williams went with them to the 5th floor in the elevator. Then some miracle of memory for both allows them to recall the "truth" about 5 months later. Really? Ever been on jury duty.....or a parent? Surely you guys can see BS when it?s in your face. I mean it?s the President who has been shot and you don?t remember how you met up with the guy who just happened to be where he was shot from minutes before.
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So you are going with the theory that they both had the same faulty memory? That Williams went with them to the 5th floor in the elevator. Then some miracle of memory for both allows them to recall the "truth" about 5 months later. Really? Ever been on jury duty.....or a parent? Surely you guys can see BS when it?s in your face. I mean it?s the President who has been shot and you don?t remember how you met up with the guy who just happened to be where he was shot from minutes before.
No, I am questioning the use of the term lie.
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No, I am questioning the use of the term lie.
It is an intentional falsehood.....in this instance all three participated in the first few days of the investigation. We also have to include Williams reluctance to include the lunch details and time of arrival and departure in these deceptions.
Put yourself in their position and answer honestly. You are being asked about events minutes before the president's assassination. If you are unsure or confused would you say so or go with a story that is proven false months later. Your original story will match your friend's. You will both eventually have to recant. What statement do you make at the time?
Are they all confused and mistaken the same way?
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It is an intentional falsehood.....in this instance all three participated in the first few days of the investigation. We also have to include Williams reluctance to include the lunch details and time of arrival and departure in these deceptions.
Put yourself in their position and answer honestly. You are being asked about events minutes before the president's assassination. If you are unsure or confused would you say so or go with a story that is proven false months later. Your original story will match your friend's. You will both eventually have to recant. What statement do you make at the time?
Are they all confused and mistaken the same way?
According to your timeline the 3 stooges would have had to conspire to lie sometime before 1:30 PM on 11/22/63.
If Larry and Curly hadn't conspired with Moe to lie by that time, then Larry and Curly both wouldn't have said that Moe came up to the 5th floor with them.
So there's the answer to your question.
Now that the time of the Stooge conspiracy has been established is there a point you want to make ?
I'm pretty sure you don't think Moe was shooting at JFK, so I'm guessing you think Moe saw something on the 6th floor but the Stooges agreed to a conspiracy of silence to protect Moe ?
Sure would help if you quit beating around the bush and just spit out whatever theory you have.
Tell the forum what you think the stooges conspired to lie about, and more importantly why they conspired.
Took about three hours of back and forth the last time we had a detailed discussion regarding what you thought was in the 3 foot bag Saint Patsy had on 11/22/63 (rubber chicken, right ?).
Let's see if we can save some time and have you just state your theory this time.
Might actually be a good one.
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You seem to be under some impression that my posts are intended to convince you or Bill or JohnM to change your view of events. Or that I even seek something from you that I have not heard of or thought of myself previously. That notion was abandoned long ago. I understand that the WC supporters that post here have an unshiftable belief. One that cannot accept variance from a specific script. I still hold hope that someone interested in reasoned discussion/debate will offer some information that advances my understanding of the events that day. Perhaps the real motivation for my posts is for the 70 or so guest viewers of this thread at this time and that they too will be encouraged to question the official story.
They might find that much of the official version of events is not supported by the assembled evidence that was gathered.
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You seem to be under some impression that my posts are intended to convince you or Bill or JohnM to change your view of events. Or that I even seek something from you that I have not heard of or thought of myself previously. That notion was abandoned long ago. I understand that the WC supporters that post here have an unshiftable belief. One that cannot accept variance from a specific script. I still hold hope that someone interested in reasoned discussion/debate will offer some information that advances my understanding of the events that day. Perhaps the real motivation for my posts is for the 70 or so guest viewers of this thread at this time and that they too will be encouraged to question the official story.
They might find that much of the official version of events is not supported by the assembled evidence that was gathered.
How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
That I can accept John. Sounds totally plausible. At that stage how was any of them to know that there would be a picture just after the shots that gave Williams an alibi.
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That I can accept John. Sounds totally plausible. At that stage how was any of them to know that there would be a picture just after the shots that gave Williams and alibi.
If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
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If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
Tend to agree Steve, how about lying for a workmate's whereabouts just before the shots?
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Tend to agree Steve, how about lying for a workmate's whereabouts just before the shots?
I can see them banding together.
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
Thumb1:
If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
Thumb1:
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So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?
Guess it's possible.
But keep in mind the three stooges were not close knit friends. In fact, they barely knew each other. Wasn't there something in this thread about BRW only transferring to the depository a month earlier and not knowing one of the other stooge's first name ?
Hard for me to envision a scenario where immediately after the shots are fired, Moe exclaims 'Holy crap, I was just up there 5 minutes ago, but you guys know I didn't do anything wrong, so will you lie for me and say I was with you the entire time' and the two other stooges readily agree to lie for Moe.
But maybe Moe yanked Curly by his hair and poked Larry in the eyes in order to convince them to lie.
Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).
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So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?
Guess it's possible.
But keep in mind the three stooges were not close knit friends. In fact, they barely knew each other. Wasn't there something in this thread about BRW only transferring to the depository a month earlier and not knowing one of the other stooge's first name ?
Hard for me to envision a scenario where immediately after the shots are fired, Moe exclaims 'Holy crap, I was just up there 5 minutes ago, but you guys know I didn't do anything wrong, so will you lie for me and say I was with you the entire time' and the two other stooges readily agree to lie for Moe.
But maybe Moe yanked Curly by his hair and poked Larry in the eyes in order to convince them to lie.
Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).
Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).
What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
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Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).
What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
You ask tough questions, Martin.....
Gee Howie, Now you've got to exhibit proof that the rusty old carcano was fired on 11/22.63.....
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If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
Thanks Steve, I think you've pretty much nailed how the Black employees in general would have felt in 1963 and specifically Williams being on the same floor as where shots were fired from, would have given him a reason to be very worried.
Shtiscared?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
JohnM
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What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/12/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2.jpg)
(https://ss100x.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/slide00221.jpg)
(https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/forensicmag.com/s3fs-public/bulletFB.jpg)
JohnM
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What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
Here's where he says "of course it was fired that day", throws in a few Saint Patsys, Your Clients, and Hail Marys, and expects that to suffice.
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All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.
How that's supposed to tell you it was fired that day is anyone's guess.
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All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/12/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2.jpg)
(https://ss100x.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/slide00221.jpg)
(https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/forensicmag.com/s3fs-public/bulletFB.jpg)
JohnM
You mean the bullet fragments that were allegedly found in the limo before th FBI arrived to examine the car and the bullet that was allegedly found on a stretcher at Parkland and which all have provenance issues?
And they prove that the rifle was fired on 22 November 1963, how exactly?
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How that's supposed to tell you it was fired that day is anyone's guess.
Well yeah, in the real world that's how crimes are solved.
JohnM
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Well yeah, in the real world that's how crimes are solved.
JohnM
With this answer it seems it will remain anybody?s guess?..
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All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/12/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2.jpg)
(https://ss100x.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/slide00221.jpg)
(https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/forensicmag.com/s3fs-public/bulletFB.jpg)
JohnM
All the recovered bullet fragments of sufficient size for identification were exclusively linked to C2766.
But What if a person doesn't accept the verification from J. Edgar Hoover's " Extra Special" Agents???... Wasn't Hoover the guy who basically said....We've got to pin this on that dead sucker Lee Harvey Oswald and convince the American public that he was the killer, and he had no motive, and no accomplices.....
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You mean the bullet fragments that were allegedly found in the limo before th FBI arrived to examine the car and the bullet that was allegedly found on a stretcher at Parkland and which all have provenance issues?
And they prove that the rifle was fired on 22 November 1963, how exactly?
We also have the damage inside the Limo of a dent in the steel frame and a hole in the windscreen which had a good chance of being created by the two fragments above.
(https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/New-photo-9.jpg)
(http://the-puzzle-palace.com/CE349.gif)
JohnM
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Robert Frazier lined the marks up in his mind because they didn't line up under the microscope.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
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With this answer it seems it will remain anybody?s guess?..
If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.
JohnM
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We also have the damage inside the Limo of a dent in the steel frame and a hole in the windscreen which had a good chance of being created by the two fragments above.
And by "good chance" he means wild-ass guess.
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If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.
The evidence that doesn't actually support the claims you are making about it?
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Robert Frazier lined the marks up in his mind because they didn't line up under the microscope.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
We have an experts opinion on one hand and on the other you have,....nothing.
Try again!
JohnM
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The evidence that doesn't actually support the claims you are making about it?
Yeah whatever, go away Troll!
JohnM
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If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.
JohnM
I am not suggesting anything and will gladly rely on properly authenticated evidence without provenance issues and wild guesses..
Got any?
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Yeah whatever, go away Troll!
JohnM
Finding it difficult to come up with credible answers to reasonable questions?
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And by "good chance" he means wild-ass guess.
No, analysing the evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion will never be just a "wild-ass" guess.
We have two large fragments found in the Limo and we have the results of two objects impacting the interior of the Limo, do the math!
JohnM
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Finding it difficult to come up with credible answers to reasonable questions?
What's reasonable about you again implying without a shred of evidence that yet more evidence was illegally planted?
JohnM
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What's reasonable about you again implying without a shred of evidence that yet more evidence was illegally planted?
Says the guy without a shred of evidence that C2766 was fired that day.
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What's reasonable about you again implying without a shred of evidence that yet more evidence was illegally planted?
JohnM
Other than in your paranoid mind, how am I implying any such thing?
Do you disagree, John, that evidence has to be authenticated and without provenance issue before it can be considered valid?
Or are you just trying to shift the burden of proof again?
No, analysing the evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion will never be just a "wild-ass" guess.
We have two large fragments found in the Limo and we have the results of two objects impacting the interior of the Limo, do the math!
JohnM
Except for the fact that you can not demonstrate with any kind of certainty that the two fragments were indeed found in the limo, you might have a point.
As it stands, your conclusion is anything but reasonable and indeed just a wild guess.
We have an experts opinion on one hand and on the other you have,....nothing.
Try again!
JohnM
We have an experts opinion on one hand
Yeah right.....
Mr. EISENBERG - But in your opinion the marks on the left are the same as the marks on the right?
Mr. FRAZIER - The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns line up.
Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind , even though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope.
Mr. McCLOY - They are not lined up in the microscope because there is mutilation on the fragment?
Mr. EISENBERG - Yes, sir.
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We have an experts opinion on one hand
Yeah right.....
Mr. EISENBERG - But in your opinion the marks on the left are the same as the marks on the right?
Mr. FRAZIER - The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns line up.
Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind , even though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope.
Mr. McCLOY - They are not lined up in the microscope because there is mutilation on the fragment?
Mr. EISENBERG - Yes, sir.
This is why nobody wants to debate you Martin, you have evidence presented that for obvious reasons cannot be photographed and your reply is "Yeah right", you aren't after the truth, you just want to believe in some massive conspiracy that somehow in your mind isn't that massive, go figure.
JohnM
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Says the guy without a shred of evidence that C2766 was fired that day.
Huh? Are you joking, the recovered fragments in Kennedy's Limo exclusively matched Oswald's rifle.
JohnM
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Huh? Are you joking, the recovered fragments in Kennedy's Limo exclusively matched Oswald's rifle.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)
Except for the fact that you can not demonstrate with any kind of certainty that the two fragments were indeed found in the limo, you might have a point.
Not to mention, it's not like those fragments were timestamped by the rifle they came out of...
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This is why nobody wants to debate you Martin,
You never want to debate those who expose your logical fallacies. Understandably so.
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How about something like this: BRW is on the 6th floor until, let's say 12:25 or so. He goes to the 5th floor to be with his buddies. Shots ring out 4-5 minutes after BRW gets to the 5th floor. It becomes clear that the shots were from the 6th floor, right where BRW was just at. He gets scared, he was just there, he left his lunch somewhere on the 6th floor (BTW: i don't know who moved the lunch or when). Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
Thumb1:
That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
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Thumb1:
That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.
Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?
Lots of examples one can think of where they could have implicated Oswald more directly.
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Junior Jarman
From Jarman's Affidavit 11/23/63
At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember).
FBI interview 11/24/63
No mention of the ascent to the 5th floor just that Williams and Norman were with him at the time of the motorcade.
SS interview 12/2/63
"After eating lunch Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor to watch the President pass by."
FBI interview 1/14/64
"He said that he and the other two boys (Norman and Williams) ate lunch on the first floor around 12 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade.
Harold Norman
FBI interview 11/26/63
As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.
SS interview and Affidavit 12/4/63
"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."
FBI interview 3/18/64
He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appear that he felt the shots occurred at this time.
Williams also changed his version of events on multiple occasions. When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
Well done Colin. You put forward an idea which seems to have teased out some agreement between opposing sides here. That certainly deserves congratulations.
Thumb1:
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"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)
Not to mention, it's not like those fragments were timestamped by the rifle they came out of...
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
YAWN!
Oswald ordered the rifle.
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.
Oswald's rifle had fibers which matched Oswald's arrest shirt.
Oswald's prints were found on the rifle.
Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
Oswald lied about putting his package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
Oswald lied about the contents of the package.
And your best reply is "LOL"? No wonder your side is losing badly.
JohnM
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And your best reply is "LOL"? No wonder your side is losing badly.
Where -- in your dreams?
Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence? Again?
Oswald ordered the rifle.
Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.
Still unproven.
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.
This is supposed to show that he owned it?
Oswald's rifle had fibers which matched Oswald's arrest shirt.
Which couldn't be matched to any specific shirt.
Oswald's prints were found on the rifle.
Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.
Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
This is supposed to show that he owned the rifle?
Oswald lied about putting his package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
This is supposed to show that he owned a rifle that you cannot demonstrate was ever in a bag?
Oswald lied about the contents of the package.
Circular. You can't prove what was in the package.
"Oswald's rifle".
LOL.
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True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.
Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?
Lots of examples one can think of where they could have implicated Oswald more directly.
I don't see why they would of their own volition have made up incriminating stuff about Oswald. Could the cops or FBI have pressured them into saying such stuff? Yes, no doubt in my mind. Seeing as the employees didn't say such stuff says to me that they weren't pressured to do so.
It would be interesting if any of the three still alive had this scenario (the lie to distance themselves from the 6th floor) put to him.
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I don't see why they would of their own volition have made up incriminating stuff about Oswald.
Who said they lied to incriminate Oswald? They lied to save BRW's skin.
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Who said they lied to incriminate Oswald? They lied to save BRW's skin.
Read Steve Galbraith's post that I responded to.
"... couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera."
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Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?
I reckon that Williams did in fact see Oswald in the sniper's nest because why would he go up to the 6th floor to sit with his mates and just plonk himself down in the middle of the floor without checking all the windows?
When Williams went down to the 5th floor he obviously went to the windows directly below the sniper's nest, so what stopped him doing the same on the floor above?
(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/TSBD_Seconds_After_Shooting.jpg)
When confronted with the following wall of boxes, would Williams simply shout out to his friends and after not hearing an answer just move on or would he have a peek to see if his friends were there and perhaps just horsing around?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/h1ayrikgr/snipers_nest.jpg)
And from the following exchange from Williams testimony, after Ford heard Williams explain what happened on the 6th floor Ford immediately attempt to associate Williams with breaking the law, which could indicate that they thought that Williams was lying?
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
JohnM
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I don't see why they would of their own volition have made up incriminating stuff about Oswald. Could the cops or FBI have pressured them into saying such stuff? Yes, no doubt in my mind. Seeing as the employees didn't say such stuff says to me that they weren't pressured to do so.
It would be interesting if any of the three still alive had this scenario (the lie to distance themselves from the 6th floor) put to him.
I believe all of them are dead. I know Harold Norman died in 1994.
Here is, apparently, Norman as seen in the Hughes film waving to the President about 5-7 seconds before the shots. He's right below the sniper's nest. Scroll to the 1:20 mark.
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Where -- in your dreams?
Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence? Again?
Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.
Still unproven.
This is supposed to show that he owned it?
Which couldn't be matched to any specific shirt.
Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.
This is supposed to show that he owned the rifle?
This is supposed to show that he owned a rifle that you cannot demonstrate was ever in a bag?
Circular. You can't prove what was in the package.
"Oswald's rifle".
LOL.
Since you think we are in court let's see where that goes.
I present an endless list of corroborated physical evidence and expert eyewitness testimony.
And in return you have no experts and rely only your obviously biased defence attorney's opinion to refute my mountain of evidence. Far out Brussel sprout!
JohnM 1
JohnI 0
JohnM
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Read Steve Galbraith's post that I responded to.
"... couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera."
And lying about Oswald - implicating him - helps save Williams. Again, IF there were powerful forces conspiring to frame Oswald then it seems obvious that they could intimidate a couple of poor black men into saying what they want about Oswald.
It's fascinating reading the people who contort themselves to exonerate Oswald then turn around and with the flimsiest of reasons point to others as the shooter.
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Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence? Again?
Oswald ordered the rifle.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lBbF8H1R3sc/UePWFAvjvMI/AAAAAAAAvKY/5A611hBQNwQ/s1600/Rifle-Documents.jpg)
Oswald possessed the rifle.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HPQnsOqQfnY/Tmel8ssSYOI/AAAAAAAAhTc/hQBiAfX1ZpA/s1600/Oswald-Backyard-Photos.jpg)
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work with Oswald's prints.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SsnIeaAWFfo/hqdefault.jpg)
(https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0158b.jpg)
JohnM
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Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.
It's a more than just 2 block letters, a lot more.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/cklyciix7/cadigan_ex3a.jpg)
Mr. EISENBERG. You can refer to your photographs.
Mr. CADIGAN. The enlarged photograph, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, contains both handwriting and hand printing which was compared with the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. I compared both the handwriting and the hand printing to determine whether or not the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics was present in both the questioned and the known documents. I found many characteristics, some of which I would point out.
On the order blank, in the "A. Hidell" and in the wording "Dallas Texas" which constitutes a part of the return address, the letter "A" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is made in the same manner as the capital letter "A" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The letter is formed with a short straight stroke beginning about halfway up the left side. The top of it is peaked or pointed. The right side is straight, and is shorter than the initial stroke. The capital letter "D" in Dallas is characterized by a staff or downstroke slanting at about a 30? angle. The lower loop in some instances is closed. In the word "Dallas" the loop is closed, and the body of the letter ends in a rounded loop formation. The same characteristic I found in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, and 6 as well as other exhibits. The word "Texas" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A is characterized with the letter "x" made in an unusual manner in that the writer, after completing the body of the letter, makes an abrupt change of motion to the following letter "a." This same characteristic I observed in the known standard on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 9, and 4.
In the address portion of the envelope, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, appears the word "Dept." I noticed here, again, the same formation of the capital "D." In addition, the entire word "Dept" appears in the known standards on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. The characteristics I would point out here are in the letter "p" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, where the letter is made with a relatively long narrow staff, and the body of the letter is a rounded shape which projects above the staff. The letter "t" ends abruptly in a downstroke. In the hand-printing appearing in the exhibit marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3--A, the wording "Dallas, Texas" contains a number of the same characteristics as Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, where the same wording appears, and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 7 and 8. The writer uses a script-type "D," and prints the other letters in the word "Dallas." The "A " again is made in a similar way to the "A" in "A. Hidell," with a beginning of the downstroke approximately three-quarters of the way up the left side of the stroke. The letter is relatively narrow, and the right-hand side of the letter is straight. In the double "L" combinations there is a curve in the lower portion of the letter. The "S" has a flat top, slanting at approximately a 30-degree angle. In the word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A the writer has used a small "e" following the letter "T." The same characteristics will be noted on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 7, and 8.
Additionally, I noted that in addition to the shape of the letters themselves, the relative heights of the letters, the spacing between the letters, the slant of the letters in both the know and questioned documents are the same.
On Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, in the portion for address, appears the notation "P.O. Box 2915," and this same wording appears on Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, and on No. 7 and No. 8 except for the "P.O." portion. Here, again, I observed the same formation of the individual letters; the spacing, the style, the slant of the writings in both questioned and known were observed to be the same.
The tail of the "5" is made with a relatively long stroke and the same characteristic appears in the known standards. In the hand printed name "A. Hidell," on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, another characteristic I noted was the very small-sized "i" in the name "Hidell." The writer makes this letter very short in contrast to the other letters in the name. This same characteristic I observed on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, the passport application. With reference to the "1" dot on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the name "Hidell," in the return portion, the dot is relatively high and between the body of the letter and the following letter "d." In the portion of the word "Chicago"---of the name "Chicago"--in the address portion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, the "i" dot is between the "o" and the "g" in "Chicago" and is well above the line of writing. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 4 I observed the same displacement of the "i" dot. In some instances, it is slightly to the right of the body of the letter, as in the word "citizenship" in the sixth line from the bottom, whereas in the word "direct" in the ninth line from the bottom the "i" dot is displaced one and a half letters to the right.
Based upon the combination of these individual characteristics which I have pointed out, as well as others, I reached the opinion that the handwriting and handprinting on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A were written by Lee Harvey Oswald, the writer of the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/oj6cskx3f/cadigan_exhibit_4.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/8m7kw7cij/cadigan_ex_5.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/h3736r6t7/cadigan_ex_6.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/v9mu1z9yj/cadigan_ex_7.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/yghdlkzjf/cadigan_ex_8.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/en59t5ot7/cadigan_ex_9.jpg)
JohnM
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Since you think we are in court let's see where that goes.
I don't think we're in court. Your contrived list isn't evidence that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court.
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And lying about Oswald - implicating him - helps save Williams. Again, IF there were powerful forces conspiring to frame Oswald then it seems obvious that they could intimidate a couple of poor black men into saying what they want about Oswald.
Funny, I read the OP several times and see nothing about "powerful forces".
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Oswald ordered the rifle.
Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald ordered the rifle.
Oswald possessed the rifle.
Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald possessed the rifle.
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work with Oswald's prints.
Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald's prints were on the rifle.
Will "Mytton" ever tell the truth about the evidence?
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I don't think we're in court. Your contrived list isn't evidence that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court.
I don't think we're in court.
Then why are you so focused on only overturning the mountain of evidence against Oswald?
Your contrived list isn't evidence that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court.
Let me correct that for you
"Your irrefutable list isn't evidence to me that Oswald owned that rifle in or out of court."
JohnM
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It's a more than just 2 block letters, a lot more.
I see some arrows and testimony that mentions (for the order blank itself) only a letter A, a letter D (which by the way is different on the envelope), and a letter x. So, my bad -- unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of three block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon. From microfilm that is conveniently "missing".
Edit: actually if you read it again, it's ambiguous but it looks like he's only referring to the envelope when he talks about the "A", "D", and "x".
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Then why are you so focused on only overturning the mountain of evidence against Oswald?
False claims and rhetoric that isn't actually evidence don't need to be "overturned". They need to be discarded.
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Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald ordered the rifle.
Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald possessed the rifle.
Sorry, that doesn't show that Oswald's prints were on the rifle.
Will "Mytton" ever tell the truth about the evidence?
Again with the worthless personal opinion, either you can refute my powerful evidence or you can't and so far it's clear to all that your presentation of refutation is severely lacking.
JohnM
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I see some arrows and testimony that mentions (for the order blank itself) only a letter A, a letter D (which by the way is different on the envelope), and a letter x. So, my bad -- unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of three block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon. From microfilm that is conveniently "missing".
So, my bad
You've been corrected on this on numerous occasions yet you still persist with the 2 letter nonsense, but that defines what you are Iacoletti, Dishonest.
JohnM
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Again with the worthless personal opinion, either you can refute my powerful evidence or you can't and so far it's clear to all that your presentation of refutation is severely lacking.
I hate to break the news to you, but adding pictures that don't actually demonstrate what you are claiming is not "powerful evidence" of anything. It's dishonesty.
:D
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You've been corrected on this on numerous occasions yet you still persist with the 2 letter nonsense, but that defines what you are Iacoletti, Dishonest.
See my edit. He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.
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I hate to break the news to you, but adding pictures that don't actually demonstrate what you are claiming is not "powerful evidence" of anything. It's dishonesty.
:D
You've truly lost it John, how is presenting a long list of corroborated evidence being dishonest?
If you want you can present the same evidence to an acknowledged expert and we can see where that takes us but you must learn that your personal opinion means nothing.
JohnM
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See my edit. He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.
See my edit.
Wonderful, you get a chance to edit your replies but you don't give the same consideration to eyewitnesses.
He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.
It's one piece of evidence and it will always be one piece of evidence and btw we haven't even got to the money order yet, your day is about to get a helluva lot worse! Muhahaha!
JohnM
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See my edit. He's conflating the order coupon and the envelope.
Oh by the way, the HSCA team of experts came to the same conclusion.
Mr. MCNALLY - Yes, F-504, and the money order is F-509.
Mr. KLEIN - Are these blowups fair and accurate representations of the documents examined by the panel?
Mr. MCNALLY - They are.
Mr. KLEIN - Using the blowups, would you explain why the panel reached its conclusion?
Mr. MCNALLY - We examined and compared the writings on the microfilm reproduction with the original postal money order issued as payable to Klein's Sporting Goods. The same process, of course, was involved, an examination and comparison of the general writing characteristics which appear on this microfilmed reproduction, versus the writing which appears on the U.S. postal money order. The writing pattern on both of these documents is the same, the same degree of skill, the same slant pattern. The writing has a continuity and a cohesion, a continuous flow in the formation of "Hidell", "Dallas, Texas," "Klein's," "Chicago, Illinois." It flows right along in the same manner, as we have in the writing flow on the postal money order. The individual letter designs that occur in the writing of the name and the address and the names and addresses on the microfilm reproduction and the writing of the various letters on the postal money order correspond. In both instances on the microfilmed reproduction here we have a parallel, the writing of "Hidell" here in the top of the microfilm and the "A. Hidell," which occurs over here on the postal money order. The writing construction in both instances is the same, just a slight variation in the "H" in "Hidell" in the microfilm reproduction, but the rest of the writing conforms to the writing "A. Hidell" on the U.S. postal money order. In the writing of "Dallas, Texas," this particular writing pattern here in the upper left-hand corner agreed with the writing of "Dallas, Texas," over here on the U.S. postal money order. The variation occurring here is that in the return address on the postal money order a small "t" has been used versus a capital "T" utilized down here. In this "Texas" here in the writing of the "x-a-s" right in this portion here just following the "x" there is a slight hitch almost like a small undotted "i". That same information occurs over here just before the "a" here a little hitch in the writing pattern. The overall writing on both the microfilm and on the postal money order correspond to the extent that we came to the conclusion both were written by the same individual, again with that caveat that this is a reproduction. As a matter of fact, this if from a microfilm, and it has been blown up from the microfilm itself so that it lacks clarity and detail. But the impression gotten from examining this particular document and comparing it with the writing of the original document, the postal money order, is that the writing flows. The line quality of that on this document and that on the postal money order corresponds; the letter designs correspond. There is no significant difference between the writing on the microfilm and the writing we have in the money order or the writing we have here, for instance, on the employment application. Further, the hand printing on this particular form here, which was laid over the envelope when it was recorded, this hand printing, "A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Texas," corresponds to that which we have in this employment application and also a letter which backed up this employment application, specifically some writing in the lower left-hand corner of that letter. We did conclude again (with that slight caveat) that the writing of the microfilm in both the script writing here and the hand print here were written by the same individual who wrote out the postal money order and the employment application.
Mr. KLEIN - Was there any evidence to indicate that either of these documents were forged or altered?
Mr. MCNALLY - From the examinations that could be made, absolutely no evidence.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/fd/f0/22fdf0b4e7a3d42c0aa377bff8bccc59.jpg)
JohnM
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Where -- in your dreams?
Your best reply is to lie about and misrepresent the evidence? Again?
Unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order blank.
Still unproven.
This is supposed to show that he owned it?
Which couldn't be matched to any specific shirt.
Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.
This is supposed to show that he owned the rifle?
This is supposed to show that he owned a rifle that you cannot demonstrate was ever in a bag?
Circular. You can't prove what was in the package.
"Oswald's rifle".
LOL.
Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.
That smudge that Detective Day imagined to be a "Palm Print" was lifted from the foregrip of the carcano in the TSBD at about 1:45 pm that afternoon. Reporter Tom Alyea watched as Day lifted that smudge and place the cellophane tape on a index card, and then scribble the pertinent information on the card. That card was listed as item number 14 on the evidence inventory list for midnight 11/22/63. The FBI received that card on Saturday 11/23/63 and examined it....the FBI report said that the smudge was useless for identification purposes.
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Thanks Steve, I think you've pretty much nailed how the Black employees in general would have felt in 1963 and specifically Williams being on the same floor as where shots were fired from, would have given him a reason to be very worried.
Shtiscared?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
JohnM
Do I detect a subtle change from initial dismissal of the idea the 3 decided to protect BRW? Now it becomes plausible.....not just confusion of faulty memory.
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Thumb1:
That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
Tend to agree......question is how far would you go? If you were BRW as opposed to JJ and HN.
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True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.
Williams said he ate his "chicken on the bone" sandwich right next to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. Why not force him to say he saw Oswald hanging around the nest?
Lots of examples one can think of where they could have implicated Oswald more directly.
Agree.....I believe that this rules out the massive conspiracy theory. How easy to get Williams to say he saw Oswald on the 6th floor......but Oswald is dead by Sunday......is he required to change his statement after that event diminished? However I do believe Givens was pressured to change and place Oswald on the 6th floor after noon.
Also given the fact that Williams was being questioned at the time Oswald was brought in.....I tend to think he did not see him on the 6th floor before he left to join HN and JJ. Does anyone believe that BRW would protect Oswald in his initial statement?
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Well done Colin. You put forward an idea which seems to have teased out some agreement between opposing sides here. That certainly deserves congratulations.
Thumb1:
Thankyou Steve.....appreciated.
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Do I detect a subtle change from initial dismissal of the idea the 3 decided to protect BRW? Now it becomes plausible.....not just confusion of faulty memory.
C'mon Colin we have debated this before, correct me if I'm wrong but where this is going is that you believe that Williams actually saw the killer and that's why they all lied, and as I remember I agreed with you and said that Williams must have seen Oswald and then you disagreed that it was Oswald, am I right?
JohnM
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If it was just Norman and Jarman returning to the 5th floor without BR Williams having been with them, then why do Norman and Jarman leave a window space between them, which eventually was the window BR Williams is at, next to Norman, when the Dillard photo is taken about 15 sec posts shots?
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C'mon Colin we have debated this before, correct me if I'm wrong but where this is going is that you believe that Williams actually saw the killer and that's why they all lied, and as I remember I agreed with you and said that Williams must have seen Oswald and then you disagreed that it was Oswald, am I right?
JohnM
So your initial post in the thread was disingenuous. Only you know why you would do that. I do remember you doing something to that effect. That was on the old forum before the crash and no longer available. I am merely presenting evidence and attempting to see where it might lead. You believe the likely scenario is that Williams left after seeing Oswald. If you believe Williams saw Oswald do you really think he would lie to protect him at the time he was already in custody?
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I see that Trolletti is up to his usual trolling antics.
Let's get back to the point of Colin's thread -- the three stooges conspiring to lie to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor before the shots were fired.
I think it would be accurate to say that the stooge conspiracy to lie about BRW's whereabouts would have had to be hatched on the 5th floor within minutes of the shots being fired.
What other time, when else could it have occurred ?
When were the stooges together again between the time the shots were fired and their initial statements were given ?
As I mentioned earlier, it seems the Stooges were not close friends. BRW was only employed at the TSBD for about a month. One of the Stooges didn't even know the first name of one of his supposed Stooge accomplices.
Sorry, I'm just not buying that within minutes of the shots being fired the stooges were conspiring to lie about BRW being on the 5th floor the entire time.
The two stooges that were actually on the 5th floor before 12:25 PM would be endangering themselves by lying/vouching for a BRW they barely knew in a conspiracy that had to be hatched within moments of the shots ringing out.
The Stooge conspiracy isn't impossible but seems unlikely to me.
And as I mentioned earlier the Stooge conspiracy doesn't provide an iota of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy, nor does it provide any evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.
The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.
Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.
Carry on.
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You've truly lost it John, how is presenting a long list of corroborated evidence being dishonest?
If you want you can present the same evidence to an acknowledged expert and we can see where that takes us but you must learn that your personal opinion means nothing.
JohnM
John,
I think you would do all the members of this forum a big favor by looking up the word "corroborated"....
You seem to have no clue about what it means.... I have a dictionary which I will gladly let you use, if that helps..
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Well yeah, in the real world that's how crimes are solved.
JohnM
No, they aren't.
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We also have the damage inside the Limo of a dent in the steel frame and a hole in the windscreen which had a good chance of being created by the two fragments above.
(https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/New-photo-9.jpg)
(http://the-puzzle-palace.com/CE349.gif)
JohnM
Only in your dreams.
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If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.
JohnM
You ignore the evidence and call for its censure.
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I see that Trolletti is up to his usual trolling antics.
Let's get back to the point of Colin's thread -- the three stooges conspiring to lie to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor before the shots were fired.
I think it would be accurate to say that the stooge conspiracy to lie about BRW's whereabouts would have had to be hatched on the 5th floor within minutes of the shots being fired.
What other time, when else could it have occurred ?
When were the stooges together again between the time the shots were fired and their initial statements were given ?
As I mentioned earlier, it seems the Stooges were not close friends. BRW was only employed at the TSBD for about a month. One of the Stooges didn't even know the first name of one of his supposed Stooge accomplices.
Sorry, I'm just not buying that within minutes of the shots being fired the stooges were conspiring to lie about BRW being on the 5th floor the entire time.
The two stooges that were actually on the 5th floor before 12:25 PM would be endangering themselves by lying/vouching for a BRW they barely knew in a conspiracy that had to be hatched within moments of the shots ringing out.
The Stooge conspiracy isn't impossible but seems unlikely to me.
And as I mentioned earlier the Stooge conspiracy doesn't provide an iota of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy, nor does it provide any evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.
The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.
Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.
Carry on.
Why don't you try answering a question for once instead of posting useless unhinged rants?
A few pages back I asked you a simple question, which you never answered. Why is that?
Here is the question again;
Interesting theory, even though it doesn't provide a scintilla of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy or give us a clue as to who actually fired the shots from C2766 (if not Oz).
What, other than assumption, makes you so sure that C2766 was actually fired that day?
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No, analysing the evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion will never be just a "wild-ass" guess.
We have two large fragments found in the Limo and we have the results of two objects impacting the interior of the Limo, do the math!
JohnM
It was never shown that there were two fragments in the limousine when it was still in Dallas. Just out of curiosity
- which bullet would they have come from?
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I see that Trolletti is up to his usual trolling antics.
Let's get back to the point of Colin's thread -- the three stooges conspiring to lie to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor before the shots were fired.
I think it would be accurate to say that the stooge conspiracy to lie about BRW's whereabouts would have had to be hatched on the 5th floor within minutes of the shots being fired.
What other time, when else could it have occurred ?
When were the stooges together again between the time the shots were fired and their initial statements were given ?
As I mentioned earlier, it seems the Stooges were not close friends. BRW was only employed at the TSBD for about a month. One of the Stooges didn't even know the first name of one of his supposed Stooge accomplices.
Sorry, I'm just not buying that within minutes of the shots being fired the stooges were conspiring to lie about BRW being on the 5th floor the entire time.
The two stooges that were actually on the 5th floor before 12:25 PM would be endangering themselves by lying/vouching for a BRW they barely knew in a conspiracy that had to be hatched within moments of the shots ringing out.
The Stooge conspiracy isn't impossible but seems unlikely to me.
And as I mentioned earlier the Stooge conspiracy doesn't provide an iota of exculpatory evidence for Saint Patsy, nor does it provide any evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.
The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.
Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.
Carry on.
Howard, thankyou for trying to keep the thread on the rails. As far as I have been able to determine the chance to conspire has to be limited to the time prior to the initial interview by Jarman the next day. I am unsure about their ability to discuss events once they descended via the stairs. It appears once they attempted to leave the building they were separated to some extent. In a short time Williams is taken to the DPD as shown in JohnM's previous post. It is possible that it was not in the immediate aftermath but it would require Williams to contact Jarman at some point after he was released by the DPD following his statement. I assume this to be after about 3pm or so on the Friday.
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YAWN!
Oswald ordered the rifle.
Oswald was photographed with the rifle.
Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.
Oswald's rifle had fibers which matched Oswald's arrest shirt.
Oswald's prints were found on the rifle.
Oswald lied about living at Neely street, the location of the backyard photos.
Oswald lied about putting his package on the back seat of Frazier's car.
Oswald lied about the contents of the package.
And your best reply is "LOL"? No wonder your side is losing badly.
JohnM
Since you "rely" on the evidence, why not cite it for each of your claims?
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Again with the worthless personal opinion, either you can refute my powerful evidence or you can't and so far it's clear to all that your presentation of refutation is severely lacking.
JohnM
Powerful evidence. 🤣😀
You have presented nothing but unsupported claims from the WCR.
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So your initial post in the thread was disingenuous. Only you know why you would do that. I do remember you doing something to that effect. That was on the old forum before the crash and no longer available. I am merely presenting evidence and attempting to see where it might lead. You believe the likely scenario is that Williams left after seeing Oswald. If you believe Williams saw Oswald do you really think he would lie to protect him at the time he was already in custody?
So your initial post in the thread was disingenuous.
Hardly, I expected you to remember what was previously said but it seems you have a memory like a sieve.
Only you know why you would do that.
Because it's always the same debate but you just use different window dressings.
I do remember you doing something to that effect.
Ok, finally some acknowledgement.
That was on the old forum before the crash and no longer available.
Yeah the crash caused by the government because you were all getting too close to the truth! Yay Truffer!
I am merely presenting evidence and attempting to see where it might lead.
No worries, all roads lead to Oswald.
You believe the likely scenario is that Williams left after seeing Oswald.
Yes, it makes sense that Williams would have checked the windows where his friends were likely to be.
If you believe Williams saw Oswald do you really think he would lie to protect him at the time he was already in custody?
Are you serious?
Yes of course, this was assassinating a President and who knows what connections Oswald had and under the circumstances it's naive to think otherwise.
JohnM
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Powerful evidence. 🤣😀
You have presented nothing but unsupported claims from the WCR.
Again I present evidence and you lot have nothing to refute me with, so out come the same old accusations, time to wake up Rob and smell my sweet scent of victory!
Btw think about this, why setup Oswald with the name Hidell, the only person that would do that would be Oswald.
JohnM
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Howard, thankyou for trying to keep the thread on the rails. As far as I have been able to determine the chance to conspire has to be limited to the time prior to the initial interview by Jarman the next day. I am unsure about their ability to discuss events once they descended via the stairs. It appears once they attempted to leave the building they were separated to some extent. In a short time Williams is taken to the DPD as shown in JohnM's previous post. It is possible that it was not in the immediate aftermath but it would require Williams to contact Jarman at some point after he was released by the DPD following his statement. I assume this to be after about 3pm or so on the Friday.
Yep, seems likely the Stooge Conspiracy would have had to been hatched on the 5th floor because it's kind of a stretch to imagine them conspiring on the stairwell or after they left the building.
So the timeline for the Stooge Conspiracy doesn't add up for me, nor does Jarman and Norman agreeing to lie/vouch for a BRW they weren't close friends with.
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Sadly for you, the catalog number matched a 36" carbine.
No Rob wrong again, according to Kleins records the catalog number C20-T750 exactly matched a rifle with Serial number C2766, you know the same rifle with Oswald's prints that was found on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j2O-kIQp5Aw/Uppyyq6H3KI/AAAAAAAAxSI/G97X3C5lxOI/s690/Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg)
From DVP's site.
JohnM
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Again I present evidence and you lot have nothing to refute me with, so out come the same old accusations, time to wake up Rob and smell my sweet scent of victory!
Btw think about this, why setup Oswald with the name Hidell, the only person that would do that would be Oswald.
JohnM
You clearly have no idea what the world "supporting" means if you think that you have presented evidence that supports your claims John. There is no supporting evidence for the claim that LHO used the Hidell alias. None.
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You clearly have no idea what the world "supporting" means if you think that you have presented evidence that supports your claims John. There is no supporting evidence for the claim that LHO used the Hidell alias. None.
Your opinion over those of handwriting experts? It's a no-brainer.
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No Rob wrong again, according to Kleins records the catalog number C20-T750 exactly matched a rifle with Serial number C2766, you know the same rifle with Oswald's prints that was found on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j2O-kIQp5Aw/Uppyyq6H3KI/AAAAAAAAxSI/G97X3C5lxOI/s690/Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg)
From DVP's site.
JohnM
Wrong again John as the catalog number from the American Rifleman magazine matched a 36" carbine. End of story.
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There is no supporting evidence for the claim that LHO used the Hidell alias.
Please desist with your "supporting evidence" garbage because you're not fooling anyone.
Not only was all the Hidell handwriting matched to Oswald but he also had the Hidell ID in his wallet and the negative used to manufacture the ID was found in Oswald's possessions. Game Over Pal, game over!
(https://s15.postimg.cc/hjaplck2j/alek_hidell_id.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/ecg61kmq3/Cadigan_ex_20.jpg)
JohnM
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I would respectfully ask members to move discussion of the rifle purchase, ballistics etc to an appropriate thread.
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Wrong again John as the catalog number from the American Rifleman magazine matched a 36" carbine. End of story.
It's actually remarkably quite simple, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750, argue with those facts Rob and don't accuse me again of changing the Kleins ad, naughty naughty.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/5241xx1or/Riflead1.jpg)
JohnM
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To summarise the thoughts of those who responded to the OP so far. If I get the essence wrong please feel free to correct by memory is apparently somewhat sieve-like.
At this point only Howard feels that the proposal that the available evidence is not suggestive that the 3 witnesses did not collude in an attempt to protect Williams from the floor seats were associated with. I would point out that the evidence presented was available to the WC. Howard feels that it was simply a matter of some sort of common group mistake......sort of a reverse gorilla experiment effect where somehow a person is included in an event who wasn?t present.
JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.
The others who have posted are generally in agreement that Norman and Jarman would be inclined to help Williams by lying given the circumstances.
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JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.
What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.
JohnM
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What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.
JohnM
Can you provide any evidence that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman? They were at the front of the building until about 12.20 and walked across Houston with Givens before changing their minds and heading for the 5th floor. Williams did claim eventually that Arce and Lovelady said that they might view the parade from the 6th floor.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
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While we wait for JohnM to substantiate his claim that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman here is some testimony relating to the events after the three moved to the west windows on the 5th floor.
Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.
Mr. BALL. How did you go down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?
Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.
Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?
Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner. Did you run down stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?
Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.
Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.
Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.
Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and--
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny-- they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.
Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.
Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.
Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.
Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Just a note that they didn?t immediately get all the men who had been on the 6th floor that day.
Those not taken to give affidavit were,
Oswald - not in building
Givens - not in building
Norman - in building but not taken
Frazier - presumably in building but not taken
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Seems Bonnie Ray and Danny Arce we?re both sent to the TSBD a few weeks before the shooting to help lay the flooring.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you employed to do?
Mr. ARCE. Order filler.
Mr. BALL. What building did you work in?
Mr. ARCE. At the warehouse.
Mr. BALL. At Houston and Elm?
Mr. ARCE. No; that's on----
Mr. BALL. Which is this?
Mr. ARCE. That's the one behind it; directly behind the Texas School Book Depository at Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL. You worked there most of the time as an order filler?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever work over at the building at 411 Elm?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me and the other boy down there.
Mr. BALL. Who is the other boy?
Mr. ARCE. Bonnie Ray Williams
Mr. BALL. They sent you out to do what?
Mr. ARCE. Help lay out a floor on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. What date did they send you down there?
Mr. ARCE. Sir, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. October?
Mr. ARCE. I know I had been there about 4 weeks when all that happened; I believe 4 or 5 weeks. I am not too sure about that.
Mr. BALL. You mean 4 or 5 weeks before November 22, 1963?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Were you laying floor at that time?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the sixth when this happened.
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Arce is asked about who was where at lunchtime......no mention of the agreement to return to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
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Truly recalling seeing Givens, Norman and Jarman just before the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
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So for all of those who think it entirely plausible that the three agreed to protect BRW, ie. everyone who has posted in the thread so far except Howard, when do you think the agreed to do so?
On the 5th floor before descending.
On the first floor, before Williams is taken to the DPD.
Or after his release about 3.30pm on Friday and before Jarman provides his affidavit on Saturday.
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Can you provide any evidence that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman? They were at the front of the building until about 12.20 and walked across Houston with Givens before changing their minds and heading for the 5th floor. Williams did claim eventually that Arce and Lovelady said that they might view the parade from the 6th floor.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
I can only provide the evidence of what Williams himself said, and that was he "thought that everybody was going to be on the 6th floor" and obviously everybody includes both Jarman and Norman.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
JohnM
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JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.
What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.
JohnM
I can only provide the evidence of what Williams himself said, and that was he "thought that everybody was going to be on the 6th floor" and obviously everybody includes both Jarman and Norman.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
JohnM
Williams recalled Arce and Loveday mentioning the 6th floor. Assumes all his workmates will be there. Does that include all employees or the floor laying crew....who knows? You believe he saw one of them, Oswald, then decides to leave for the 5th floor on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below and the off chance some other workmates might be there. Is that better?
PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!
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Williams recalled Arce and Loveday mentioning the 6th floor. Assumes all his workmates will be there. Does that include all employees or the floor laying crew....who knows? You believe he saw one of them, Oswald, then decides to leave for the 5th floor on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below and the off chance some other workmates might be there. Is that better?
PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!
on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below
Not just noises but voices, look at where Norman and Jarman were and reportedly they were hanging out the windows to talk to each other, so if Williams was directly above in the sniper's nest then he would have been closer to Norman than Jarman was.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce480.jpg)
JohnM
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Not just noises but voices, look at where Norman and Jarman were and reportedly they were hanging out the windows to talk to each other, so if Williams was directly above in the sniper's nest then he would have been closer to Norman than Jarman was.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce480.jpg)
JohnM
No mention of hearing voices......but maybe walking or window movement.
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.
As he was directly above at the time at an open window, not at the 3rd or 4th set of windows from the east behind closed windows.....certainly possible.
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PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!
Agreed, the look on Williams face doesn't seem to jibe with the tone of his testimony.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
Now I don't know how much evidence that Williams was aware of or what he had access to but it's interesting that Williams specifically pinpoints the SN window and without hesitation names Oswald as being in that window whereas neither Jarman or Norman said anything about Oswald, did Williams say Oswald because he knew beyond all doubt that it was in fact Oswald?
Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.
Btw if someone was firing at the President of the United States from the floor directly above, would you stay where you are and be as quiet as a mouse or would run across the floor and be closer to the elevator and stairs.
JohnM
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No mention of hearing voices......but maybe walking or window movement.
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.
As he was directly above at the time at an open window, not at the 3rd or 4th set of windows from the east behind closed windows.....certainly possible.
He does say "or something" which would have to be voices and these voices would help lead him to conclude that there were people down below.
JohnM
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Agreed, the look on Williams face doesn't seem to jibe with the tone of his testimony.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
Now I don't know how much evidence that Williams was aware of or what he had access to but it's interesting that Williams specifically pinpoints the SN window and without hesitation names Oswald as being in that window whereas neither Jarman or Norman said anything about Oswald, did Williams say Oswald because he knew beyond all doubt that it was in fact Oswald?
Btw if someone was firing at the President of the United States from the floor directly above, would you stay where you are and be as quiet as a mouse or would run across the floor and be closer to the elevator and stairs.
JohnM
We also have this....
Mr. BALL. You were at what window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from.
Not really supportive of your point.
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We also have this....
Mr. BALL. You were at what window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from.
Not really supportive of your point.
You missed the point and have taken your quotes out of context, much like Oswald finally admitting that he came down from the 6th floor, the following exchange was made when Williams was equally relaxed and he subconsciencly just blurted out an honest response, Williams knew Oswald was in the sniper's nest and was thus he was speaking from a foundation of truth where honesty cannot be disguised.
Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.
JohnM
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Is this a reasonable summary of your position?
Williams saw Oswald in the SN about 5 minutes before the shots and decided leave and investigate downstairs to see if any co-workers were there.
At some point, presumably before Jarman makes his affidavit the next day, the three decide to protect BRW from association with the 6th floor and agree to say that they all took the elevator together to the 5th to watch the motorcade.
Williams it taken with Shelley and Arce to DPD to give an affidavit following Fritz telling Senkel to round up all those on the 6th floor that day. This occurred around 1.30pm, around the time the rifle was discovered.
Oswald is arrested and arrives at DPD and is specifically referred to in Williams affidavit. Ie. Williams knows Oswald is the prime suspect at the time his affidavit is taken.
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Thanks Tony,
Here is his first day statement.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fBNGzz/A748007_A_B319_4_B7_D_A2_AC_CB5611_C05_FC6.jpg)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mrfiCK/CCF98048_975_B_46_B7_B6_CB_2_BEBF8_F6_CDC7.jpg)
I wonder why he mentions Givens. I can understand the DPD interest about Givens but how would BRW know that he could not get back into the building?
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From BRW's first day affidavit - he mentions Givens and Oswald and avoids all mention of ever being on the 6th floor and stated that he went to the fifth floor with Norman and Jarman (Hank and Junior).
He mentions seeing officers come up.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340456/?q=Bonnie%20ray%20Williams%20
The very next day Williams talks to the FBI and tells them that he was on the 6th floor.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
JohnM
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The very next day Williams talks to the FBI and tells them that he was on the 6th floor.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
JohnM
Some changes from the day before are apparent. Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD. There is a time shift to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator, effectively distancing himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. However in time it would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley that the men did indeed break for lunch about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down. Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really see Oswald standing east of the east elevator?
Significantly, he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred at 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! If we add the time shift it becomes arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards?
Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at " approximately the middle of the building" to watch the motorcade. He heard 2 shots coming from above.
Since his first day affidavit he likely is made aware that the assassin's chicken lunch was discovered on the 6th floor. Also he may have anticipated someone witnessing him or even photographing him on the 6th floor.
Meanwhile Jarman has suck to the original plan.
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Note the "you stayed only 3 minutes" and "used the stairs" which he then denied stating.
When he gave his first day statement he didn't mention the 6th floor and by the second day he had no idea what Norman and Jarman told the DP. BRW may have been aware of the news reports of the "assassin" having eaten his chicken lunch on the 6th floor.
Or if he was seen from the outside on the 6th floor.
Note the "you stayed only 3 minutes" and "used the stairs" which he then denied stating.
That's why I posted the full interaction, the reason I believe for the 3 minutes if he did actually say it, is that at first Williams was doing his damndest to distance himself from being there at 12:30.
When he gave his first day statement he didn't mention the 6th floor and by the second day he had no idea what Norman and Jarman told the DP.
Maybe he didn't mention the 6th floor because he figured he had no reason to.
BRW may have been aware of the news reports of the "assassin" having eaten his chicken lunch on the 6th floor.
And...?
JohnM
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That's why I posted the full interaction, the reason I believe for the 3 minutes if he did actually say it, is that at first Williams was doing his damndest to distance himself from being there at 12:30.
Agree.....see my earlier post.
Maybe he didn't mention the 6th floor because he figured he had no reason to.
JohnM
No reason to after he told of shots from above and knew the guy you think he saw a few minutes before was the prime suspect......really?
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Some changes from the day before are apparent. Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD. There is a time shift to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator, effectively distancing himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. However in time it would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley that the men did indeed break for lunch about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down. Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really see Oswald standing east of the east elevator?
Significantly, he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred at 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! If we add the time shift it becomes arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards?
Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at " approximately the middle of the building" to watch the motorcade. He heard 2 shots coming from above.
Since his first day affidavit he likely is made aware that the assassin's chicken lunch was discovered on the 6th floor. Also he may have anticipated someone witnessing him or even photographing him on the 6th floor.
Meanwhile Jarman has suck to the original plan.
Williams now contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD.
Why is everything so black and white to you?
It's the next day and if as you suggest they already have co-ordinated their stories why would Williams just stuff it all up and jeopardize not only himself but his mates as well?
I feel you're reading too much into how you interpret their words and it's largely what I said at the start, as time went on they were just encouraged to recall more details.
JohnM
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Why is everything so black and white to you?
It's the next day and if as you suggest they already have co-ordinated their stories why would Williams just stuff it all up and jeopardize not only himself but his mates as well?
I feel you're reading too much into how you interpret their words and it's largely what I said at the start, as time went on they were just encouraged to recall more details.
JohnM
Because he realises it is his lunch remnants that have been linked to the assassin......all over the media. I?m sure he was aware of fingerprinting going on. He occupied the SN. For all he knew there were photos of him on the 6th floor. He is in damage control and has no way to contact Jarman. That?s why......
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Agree.....see my earlier post.
No reason to after he told of shots from above and knew the guy you think he saw a few minutes before was the prime suspect......really?
Agree.....see my earlier post.
Thumb1:
No reason to after he told of shots from above and knew the guy you think he saw a few minutes before was the prime suspect......really?
I don't think Williams wanted to admit to seeing Oswald, so what else was left to say?
JohnM
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Thumb1:
I don't think Williams wanted to admit to seeing Oswald, so what else was left to say?
JohnM
Please tidy up the quotes to accurately represent my reply. The "I agree" was relating to your suggestion that he was trying to distance himself from 12.30.
You believe that Williams would lie about not seeing the accused assassin in the SN......sound highly unlikely to me.......and a very brave move.
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Because he realises it is his lunch remnants that have been linked to the assassin......all over the media. I?m sure he was aware of fingerprinting going on. He occupied the SN. For all he knew there were photos of him on the 6th floor. He is in damage control and has no way to contact Jarman. That?s why......
Because he realises it is his lunch remnants that have been linked to the assassin......all over the media.
Yep, the chicken lunch was mentioned early on.
I?m sure he was aware of fingerprinting going on.
Probably.
He occupied the SN.
He could have.
For all he knew there were photos of him on the 6th floor.
Would that have crossed his mind?
He is in damage control and has no way to contact Jarman.
Well I agree that Bonnie Ray was picking his words very carefully.
JohnM
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Yep, the chicken lunch was mentioned early on.
Probably.
He could have.
Would that have crossed his mind?
Well I agree that Bonnie Ray was picking his words very carefully.
JohnM
Do you think he was shown the Dillard photo at some point?
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Please tidy up the quotes to accurately represent my reply. The "I agree" was relating to your suggestion that he was trying to distance himself from 12.30.
Please tidy up the quotes to accurately represent my reply.
Huh?
The "I agree" was relating to your suggestion that he was trying to distance himself from 12.30.
I know, that's why I thumbed up your comment and my post accurately represents this, what the heck are you on about?
JohnM
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You believe that Williams would lie about not seeing the accused assassin in the SN......sound highly unlikely to me.......and a very brave move.
Williams didn't want to get involved, it's not Rocket Science.
JohnM
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Do you think he was shown the Dillard photo at some point?
Shown by whom?
JohnM
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Seriously? You people absolutely crucify anybody who saw Oswald just ask Brennan or Givens and if Williams changed his story to say he actually did see Oswald in the sniper's nest then just tell me how that would go down?, perhaps Bonnie Ray was a touch more perceptive than you give him credit for.
JohnM
And what if it was not Oswald that he saw.......how would the events have played out in your view? Would Williams have come to Oswald?s defence?
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And a big shout out to the 130 guests currently viewing the thread.
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At this point only Howard feels that the proposal that the available evidence is not suggestive that the 3 witnesses did not collude in an attempt to protect Williams from the floor seats were associated with. I would point out that the evidence presented was available to the WC. Howard feels that it was simply a matter of some sort of common group mistake......sort of a reverse gorilla experiment effect where somehow a person is included in an event who wasn?t present.
Not exactly, Colin.
I think the initial statements in which two of the Stooges seem to mention BRW ascending to the 5th floor with them is just a mistake they made under a hectic confusing and stressful situation. The crux of their statements concerned what they saw and heard during the assassination, not the exact movements and whereabouts of each of the Stooges prior to the event.
BRW's locale and movements in the period preceding the shots simply wasn't important to them. What they definitely remembered was that BRW was with them when the shots rang out.
What I do find disconcerting is BRW claiming he ate his lunch downstairs. At least I think that's something he claimed. That bothers me.
The Stooges also said some other things that don't quite make sense to me, but I don't see anything sinister in it.
For example, immediately after the shots the Stooges went to the other side of the floor and looked out the window. I think part of the narrative has become they moved there to see the crowd in the area behind the building. Except there was no crowd assembled there immediately after the shots.
I think the Stooges actually ran to that end of the building as it afforded them a better view of the motorcade and it's rush towards Parkland.
I simply do not buy that in the scant harried moments spent on the 5th floor after the shots, that BRW's location before the shots was even a consideration.
I can't envision BRW saying something to the effect of 'I was on the 6th floor a few minutes before the shots, and I need you guys to cover that up'.
I'm pretty sure they were more concerned about what was ocurring at that moment and not where BRW was at 12:25.
I also find it unlikely that Jarman and Norman, if asked to, would readily agree to lie on behalf of BRW. They were just work acquaintances, not buxom buddies.
Can't buy into the Stooge conspiracy. The logistics and timeline just doesn't support it.
However, BRW's misleading (or at best, inaccurate) statements are an issue of concern. I can understand why he would want to distance himself from the 6th floor, but since he definitely wasn't a shooter, lying about being there before the shooting is sheer stupidity.
That being said, I don't believe BRW was involved in a conspiracy to murder JFK, or that the two other Stooges conspired to hide the fact that BRW ate his lunch on the 6th floor.
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I don?t think any of them were involved in the assassination either. As for their affidavits and statements we have to agree to disagee. Not with just me but every other poster in the thread it seems. Maybe we might event get some CTs posting their thoughts too.
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And what if it was not Oswald that he saw.......how would the events have played out in your view? Would Williams have come to Oswald?s defence?
And what if it was not Oswald that he saw.......how would the events have played out in your view?
I don't think that Williams would have been allowed to live to be able to identify the guy because if this guy was willing to kill the President then BRW would have been less than nothing.
Would Williams have come to Oswald?s defence?
That's interesting if Williams managed to get away, saw Oswald arrested and subsequently realized that the guy he saw must have been the assassin then that's a conundrum that has no easy answer.
JohnM
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I don?t think any of them were involved in the assassination either. As for their affidavits and statements we have to agree to disagee. Not with just me but every other poster in the thread it seems.
Guess that makes me a lone nut.
Since we seem to agree the Stooge conspiracy would have been hatched before the Stooges arrived downstairs, and the Stooges are known to have been downstairs within a few minutes of the shots....
I need to ask, do you honestly believe BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 was a consideration or matter of importance to the Stooges during those few moments - or were they interested in getting downstairs and finding out WTF just happened ?
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Jarman's statement from 11/23/63
Notice anything missing?
November 22 DPD Statement
Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
Some fairly precise recollections there.....including.....we were all out on the street about noon.
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I'm curious how the postulated Stooge Conspiracy was arranged.
I mean, whose idea was it ?
Give me an example or your best guess of what was said amongst the Stooges during the set up of the conspiracy.
Did it go down like this....
BRW: 'Phuck me, I was just up there...you guys have to help a fellow stooge'
NORMAN: 'Don't sweat it, Bro...We've got your back'.
JARMAN: 'If anyone asks, just tell them you were with us the whole time'
Im just trying to imagine how the Stooge decision to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor was reached.
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If Jarman and Norman didn't know BRW was on the 6th floor or if they didn't know where he was previous to him joining them on the 5th floor, then there'd be no need for a Stooge Conspiracy. 8)
How would the Stooges conspire to cover up BRW being on the 6th floor if they didn't even know he was there ?
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Please desist with your "supporting evidence" garbage because you're not fooling anyone.
Not only was all the Hidell handwriting matched to Oswald but he also had the Hidell ID in his wallet and the negative used to manufacture the ID was found in Oswald's possessions. Game Over Pal, game over!
(https://s15.postimg.cc/hjaplck2j/alek_hidell_id.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/ecg61kmq3/Cadigan_ex_20.jpg)
JohnM
That Koolade that you drink is pretty strong because you're totally delusional. You are totally clueless about the evidence if you think that the Hidell signature was matched to LHO. What wallet? There is NO wallet listed on the official DPD document that shows what was taken off of LHO at the time of his arrest.
Of course you want me to desist with the "supporting evidence" stuff since you have NONE.
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It's actually remarkably quite simple, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750, argue with those facts Rob and don't accuse me again of changing the Kleins ad, naughty naughty.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/5241xx1or/Riflead1.jpg)
JohnM
You're being dishonest John as research has shown that the catalog number in the February issue of the American Rifleman matched a 36" carbine. The WC said that LHO used that issue.
The game of changing the magazine used won't work.
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For JohnM......just came across this.....
In this FBI statement Williams claimed he heard Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cYLywe/287_ACA24_EE63_44_F8_ABAA_1_C284_CC5299_C.jpg)
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So none of the proponents of The Stooge Conspiracy wants to take a crack at explaining how the conspiracy was launched ?
For the Stooge Conspiracy to be real - Moe, Larry and Curly would have had to conspire. That is to say, they'd have to have a conversation and agree to covering up that BRW was on the 6th floor and what their cover story was.
I submit there would had to have been a conversation similar to the one I posted above and that the Stooges would have had to agree to their conspiracy within 2 or 3 minutes of the shooting.
Somehow, I just find it hard to believe that BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 PM was even discussed by the Stooges from 12:31 to 12:33 PM at all.
Convince me that the Stooge Conspiracy was real by explaining how, when, and where the Stooges launched their conspiracy.
BTW - I'm sure there are many Shemp fans that are upset he hasn't been mentioned as a Stooge Conspirator yet. Don't worry Shemp fans, I'm sure the conspiracy will expand and include you later.
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You're being dishonest John as research has shown that the catalog number in the February issue of the American Rifleman matched a 36" carbine. The WC said that LHO used that issue.
The game of changing the magazine used won't work.
You're impossible.....Mr Crapio..... Are you completely devoid of the ability to reason?
Simply because a magazine listed the length of the carcano as 36 inches you believe that it would have been utterly impossible for Kleins to have sent a 40 inch long carcano. You've been hung up on that hook for years.....and it's a very poor idea on which to base your argument.
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So none of the proponents of The Stooge Conspiracy wants to take a crack at explaining how the conspiracy was launched ?
For the Stooge Conspiracy to be real - Moe, Larry and Curly would have had to conspire. That is to say, they'd have to have a conversation and agree to covering up that BRW was on the 6th floor and what their cover story was.
I submit there would had to have been a conversation similar to the one I posted above and that the Stooges would have had to agree to their conspiracy within 2 or 3 minutes of the shooting.
Somehow, I just find it hard to believe that BRW's whereabouts at 12:25 PM was even discussed by the Stooges from 12:31 to 12:33 PM at all.
Convince me that the Stooge Conspiracy was real by explaining how, when, and where the Stooges launched their conspiracy.
BTW - I'm sure there are many Shemp fans that are upset he hasn't been mentioned as a Stooge Conspirator yet. Don't worry Shemp fans, I'm sure the conspiracy will expand and include you later.
Maybe include Oswald as Lone Stooge.
> Stooges are the butt of humour (Oswald was called 'Osvaldovitch' by fellow marines, 'butt-twister' by fellow boarders, and regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
;)
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Include Oswald as a Lone Stooge.
> Stooges are the butt of humour (Oswald was called 'Osvaldovitch' by fellow marines, 'butt-twister' by fellow boarders, and regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of the basic facts, Chappy.....
The words on the back of George De Morenschildt's copy of CE 133A were "HUNTER OF FASCISTS " Not "KILLER" of fascists....
But more important... Where did you learn that Marina was the person who wrote that inscription??
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regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of the basic facts, Chappy.....
The words on the back of George De Morenschildt's copy of CE 133A were "HUNTER OF FASCISTS " Not "KILLER" of fascists....
But more important... Where did you learn that Marina was the person who wrote that inscription??
More important to whom, Waldo? Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge? Was the fascist-killer wannabe, butt-twisting Osvoldovitch laughed at or not?
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More important to whom, Waldo? Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge? Was the fascist-killer wannabe, butt-twisting Osvoldovitch laughed at or not?
Maybe include Oswald as Lone Stooge.
> Stooges are the butt of humour (Oswald was called 'Osvaldovitch' by fellow marines, 'butt-twister' by fellow boarders, and regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
;)
Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge?
Thank you for demonstrating your willingness to lie and deny and evade your own words.....
regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
This statement says that Marina mocked Lee by writing... "Hunter of Fascists Ha, ha,ha" on the back of De Morhenschildt's copy of CE 133A.
Thanks again for proving that you're not only ignorant about the case....You're a liar.
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Walt "The LNer" Flakebread has struck again. If anyone doubts that this poster is really a LNer then I question their reasoning skills. He is telling falsehoods to protect the WC's claims just like all LNers do.
Screwball!.... WHERE??... Have I told a "falsehood"?
Simply because a magazine listed the length of the carcano as 36 inches you believe that it would have been utterly impossible for Kleins to have sent a 40 inch long carcano.
And, How does my assessment that the 36 inch dimension in The American Rifleman ad is irrelevant make me a supporter of LBJ's Cover up committee. Face it Robbie.... Your animosity toward me because I proved to you that you were wrong about the carcano ejecting the clip just like the M-1 garand, blinds you to the truth.
You simply can't accept that you are wrong on so many aspects of the case.
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Where did I address anything in my post other than suggesting Oswald was a laughed-at stooge?
Thank you for demonstrating your willingness to lie and deny and evade your own words.....
regularly laughed at for his unrealistic ambitions by Marina (including the 'killer of fascists' getup in the BY photos)
This statement says that Marina mocked Lee by writing... "Hunter of Fascists Ha, ha,ha" on the back of De Morhenschildt's copy of CE 133A.
Thanks again for proving that you're not only ignorant about the case....You're a liar
You're ignorant, period. You've mangled the intent of my post, goofball.
So Osvaldovitch missed his prey first time around. Bad luck. No matter... next time around he got lucky and slayed the biggest prey of all.
And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.
Marina laughed at him in that getup, no matter what she wrote and whether you lot you like it or not.
But I digress. I'll set aside your reading comprehension shortcomings for now, and ask you again: Was 'Osvaldovitch' laughed at as a butt-twisting, fascist-killer wannabe, or not?
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You're ignorant, period.
Q: What does a hunter with a rifle do when finding the prey.
A: Tries to kill it. Duh.
So Osvaldovitch missed his prey first time around. Bad luck. No matter... next time around he got lucky and slayed the biggest prey of all.
And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.
Hunter. Killer. BFD. Marina laughed at him in that getup, whether you like it or not.
But I digress. I'll set aside your reading comprehension shortcomings for now, and ask you again: Was 'Osvaldovitch' laughed at as a butt-twisting, fascist-killer wannabe, or not?
And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.
Slip of the tongue??.... Why don't you man up and admit that you actually didn't know that the inscription was "Hunter of Fascists ....and not KILLER of fascists as you wrote.
Frankly, Chappy...I'm fed up with your stupidity....
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And thanks for displaying, in abundance, Bugliosi's remarks about CTers jumping all over 'slips of the tongue' and making a big deal of it.
Slip of the tongue??.... Why don't you man up and admit that you actually didn't know that the inscription was "Hunter of Fascists ....and not KILLER of fascists as you wrote.
I did know, actually. I'm not a robot that remembers levery detail, especially a detail that doesn't change the fact that Marina laughed at his getup in the photos.
And doesn't change the fact that others laughed at him. Stop dodging
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I would like to develop this thread in a cooperative manner. Things only happened one way so I would like to progress the combined efforts of all to some form of consensus that we can work with. Perhaps a chronological examination will assist. I suggest we start with day one.
The things we do know would suggest that very early on Williams knew that his presence on the 6th floor just before the shots was a serious issue for him. His proximity to the shots as they happened, even if he could not work out exactly where they came from he likely was told by the others shortly after. Within an hour those who had worked on the 6th floor that day were rounded up and takes to the DPD to provide affidavits.
In his affidavit he states that the shots sounded like they "came from just above us". He also knows that Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. In his affidavit he mentions nothing of his lunch trip to the sixth but said he went back up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman and also said that the shots occurred "shortly after we arrived" on the 5th floor.
There seems little doubt that at this point, within 2 hours of the assassination, at least Williams has consciously decided to alter the facts to that extent.
He was released from the DPD around 3.30pm and I can only assume he went home. Knowing human nature what do we think is most likely he did for the rest of Friday?
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I imagine he would be tuned to the radio/TV to get the latest updates about the assassination. He likely heard Oswald's communist background details. Also that the chicken lunch was associated with the assassin. He would likely assume that the SN area was being processed for fingerprints.
I think he could have told his young wife what had happened and the bind he was in. Most of us in some serious situation also get advise from trusted family/friends. What to do, maintain the original statement or inform the authorities of his 6th floor presence?
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Maybe step back to the few minutes before the shots. When he meets up with Norman and Jarman what is the likely conversation between them? Does Williams say he has just been upstairs? Does he ask where the flooring crew are? Do they say when have you been? Are you going to have lunch? Etc.
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I don?t think he saw Oswald as JohnM has proposed. He had every chance to inform them of his sighting at the DPD that afternoon when questioned. He had an alibi with Norman and Jarman. However, I don?t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental. With Williams in place on the 6th by 12.15pm a shooter simply would have found an alternate spot, likely the 7th floor directly above the SN.
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Essentially we have 3 possibilities.
Option 1.
Williams saw no one and just happened to vacate the 6th floor independently. He left his lunch remnants and now on day one he decides to say nothing about his return to the sixth floor, but says he went with Jarman and Norman.
Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.
Option 3. Williams sees someone other than Oswald but says nothing.
For options 2 and 3 Williams vacates the 6th floor but does not feel threatened at the time.
By the next day, someone/thing has persuaded him to inform the FBI that he visited the 6th floor for a just a few minutes around noon before joining Norman and Jarman.
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I don?t think he saw Oswald as JohnM has proposed. He had every chance to inform them of his sighting at the DPD that afternoon when questioned. He had an alibi with Norman and Jarman. However, I don?t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental. With Williams in place on the 6th by 12.15pm a shooter simply would have found an alternate spot, likely the 7th floor directly above the SN.
I don?t believe his vacating the 6th floor just before the motorcade passed, allowing the shooter to perform the deed from the very area Williams had occupied is coincidental.
There was nobody firing a rifle from that SE corner window at the time of the murder....
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There was nobody firing a rifle from that SE corner window at the time of the murder....
Why do you think that?
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November 23 FBI Interview
On Saturday the 23rd, the day after the assassination Williams was visited by FBI Agents Odum and Griffin and a statement prepared following his interview with them. We must bear in mind that just 24 hours after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25pm.
Some changes from the day before are and Williams contradicted his statement given just the day before to the DPD. He shifted the time to 11.30am for the descent in the elevator in an attempt to distance himself by 20 minutes from the events that took place less than an hour later. It would be clear from the evidence of the other members of the floor laying crew and foreman Bill Shelley that the men did indeed break for lunch but not until about 11.50am. In addition he now remembered seeing Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down. Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all. Givens was operating the other freight elevator (east) and so BRW was on west elevator. Could Williams, in the west elevator really see Oswald standing to the east of the east elevator?
Significantly, he now told of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12 (if we apply a 20 minute time shift correction this actually occurred closer to 12.10pm). His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! If we add the time shift correction he arrives on the 6th floor at 12.10, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.13pm. Is he trying to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor from 12.15 onwards?
Williams claimed to have seen no one and goes down the stairs to the 5th floor and now meets up with Jarman and Norman. They took up a position at the southern windows at "approximately the middle of the building" to watch the motorcade. He heard 2 shots coming from above. He did not hang his head out the window but "glanced up and saw no one".
He ran to west side windows with the others and, while there, sees an officer (Baker?) come up on the elevator. Did he hear the elevator operating and assume it was Baker (and Truly) who used it? Was someone using the elevator at that time (Dougherty?). Remember Sandra Styles claimed Adams saw the elevator cables moving when the girls descended the stairs. He stated they were standing in a position to see the stairs but saw no one other than the policeman. (Not Oswald or even Dougherty). He also stated that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and he might not notice. If at this time both elevators were supposedly locked on the 5th floor?.how was that possible?
He went to 4th floor (by elevator or stairs?) and met with women there. Williams said that no one was in the SN that morning prior to break for lunch. On the sixth floor, he went to the windows on the south side "middle of the building" and saw no one "standing". He saw Frazier on 6th floor talking to Shelley between 10 and 11am. Was this Frazier asking Shelley if the men would be allowed to stop work to get to see the President if the parade
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Junior Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the same day, the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
As Jarman was an order checker and not part of the floor laying crew his normal work location was the first floor. He provided a time for the workers departure of approximately 11.45 and an observation that Oswald ascended sometime after 11.30am. This is consistent with Oswald being observed near the east elevator the 5th floor during the "elevator race" descent. There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and the workers on the 6th floor. He places Williams out the front of the building with the rest. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them.
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Essentially we have 3 possibilities.
Option 1.
Williams saw no one and just happened to vacate the 6th floor independently. He left his lunch remnants and now on day one he decides to say nothing about his return to the sixth floor, but says he went with Jarman and Norman.
Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.
Option 3. Williams sees someone other than Oswald but says nothing.
For options 2 and 3 Williams vacates the 6th floor but does not feel threatened at the time.
By the next day, someone/thing has persuaded him to inform the FBI that he visited the 6th floor for a just a few minutes around noon before joining Norman and Jarman.
Yeah, most likey he realized that his attempt to distance himself from the 6th floor was an act of stupidity and doomed to failure.
Still not buying that BRW asked the Stooges to lie for him or that they would agree to do so.
Simply doesn't make sense that a Stooge Conspiracy was hatched in the 2 - 3 minutes before they went downstairs or anytime before they gave their statements on 11/22/63.
I laughingly predicted earlier in this thread that eventually the implication that BRW saw Jack Dougherty on the 6th floor preparing for the assassination would be made - and sure enough Fratini has made my prediction a reality.
Pfffffft.
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Howard it might come as a surprise to you but I am reconsidering the theory after reviewing the statements. Tony did not imply anything about Dougherty being the assassin. Did you see my post where I stated that I think Dougherty came up after BRW left?
This is a complex topic, maybe too much for you to comprehend.
PS only BRW gave a statement on 11/22. See above.....
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This is a complex topic, maybe to much for you to comprehend.
Yeah, that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.
Save the condescending remarks for someone else, bright boy.
BTW, that should be 'too' much.
Have a nice day.
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Yeah, that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.
At last we agree on something.
PS thanks for the tip on the typo.....you might have a career there.
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Howard it might come as a surprise to you but I am reconsidering the theory after reviewing the statements. Tony did not imply anything about Dougherty being the assassin. Did you see my post where I stated that I think Dougherty came up after BRW left?
This is a complex topic, maybe too much for you to comprehend.
PS only BRW gave a statement on 11/22. See above.....
'This is a complex topic, maybe too much for you to comprehend''
>>> By making everything evermore big and complex, you lot are 'moving in the wrong direction', as Einstein put it.
KISS
Keep It Simple Sherlock.
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..just came across this.....
Didn't Victoria Adams and her friend Sandra Styles testify that they entered the stairwell on the 4th floor approximately 20 seconds after the third shot?
The Warren Commission jackals completely ignored their statements. Why?
Because Oswald must have seemingly turned into the invisible man and went right by them.
Those other guys?...Who cared that their stories were all contradictory? The cops had their man!
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
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Didn't Victoria Adams and her friend Sandra Styles testify that they entered the stairwell on the 4th floor approximately 20 seconds after the third shot?
The Warren Commission jackals completely ignored their statements. Why?
Because Oswald must have seemingly turned into the invisible man and went right by them.
Those other guys?...Who cared that their stories were all contradictory? The cops had their man!
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
As I understand it the trouble with their timings is that Adams said when they got to the first floor they met Shelley and Lovelady, but they had been watching from the steps of the TSBD then gone up to the tracks behind it before going to the bottom of the stairs. This was several minutes later, and they said they saw Truly (and an officer)going into the building whilst they were outside.
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I didn't say believe, I said think, but anyway ...... its not a fact.
Others have done analysis to show the shots most likely came from the sixth floor SE window where the snippers nest was Also various people described seeing a rifle being withdrawn from the window plus Jarman and others reported hearing the gunshots directly above them.
So where do you think the shots were fired from?
Do your own research and reasoning....Don't rely on "others" ...who claim the shots "most likely" came from the SE corner window. And there was NO sniper's nest....at that site. Some loafer employee ( Givens?) had constructed a hidden "Smokers Nook" behind that window as a place he could loaf, and smoke out of sight of the boss. The police found a couple of spent shells there where they had been planted and assumed the site was a "Sniper's Nest" where the gunman had sat on a box and used a stack of boxes as a rifle steady rest ...in spite of the fact that the gunman could not have declined the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street if he had rested the rifle on top of the stack of boxes as Deputy Mooney imagined.
The shots came from the Grassy Knoll..... LBJ and Hoover worked hard to divert the attention from the GK.....
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As I understand it the trouble with their timings is that Adams said when they got to the first floor they met Shelley and Lovelady, but they had been watching from the steps of the TSBD then gone up to the tracks behind it before going to the bottom of the stairs. This was several minutes later, and they said they saw Truly (and an officer)going into the building whilst they were outside.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
-----------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - Correct.
-------------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
So who was Truly with? Was he with Shelley or was he with Lovelady or was he with a cop?
Who was Shelley with? Truly or Lovelady?
The Stooges vs Laurel and Hardy
Stanley...why can't you ever get your story straight? (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
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As you may remember things changed on Novemeber 24th. Oswald is killed by Ruby.
The next significant event that occurs for the Norman, Jarman and Williams occurs on the Monday the 25th when Carl Day visits the TSBD and enquires about the chicken lunch.
Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.
Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified to the WC.
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BRW wasn't getting a death sentence for admitting he was on the 6th floor, 5 minutes before the shots were fired.
He had an iron clad alibi for his presence on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.
Bingo. We have a winner.
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Bingo. We have a winner.
Frazier had an ion clad alibi for the time of the shots too.......nice try but no cigar. It's not was he was going to get, it's what he thought he might be in for......all in the eye of the beholder.
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The next day.....
Norman was not interviewed by the DPD immediately after the assassination. He was interviewed by the FBI on the 26th of November, the Tuesday following the assassination. That report appears below.
(https://image.ibb.co/hz4Lez/Norman_nov.jpg)
As we saw with Jarman's initial statements there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor. Interestingly, he stated that after the first shot he stuck his head out the window and looked upward and pulled back inside after particles fell on him. There were two subsequent shots. They ran to the west end but he returned to the original position at some later time. He did not recall seeing Oswald at any time that day.
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Frazier had an ion clad alibi for the time of the shots too.......nice try but no cigar.
Not the same thing.
Bonnie Ray Williams didn't give the accused assassin a ride to work that morning.
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So to summarise the first week following the assassination.
On day one Williams has claimed to have gone up with Norman and Jarman to watch from the 5th floor and that shortly after arriving the motorcade passed by. This was a DPD affidavit.
The next day he told the FBI that he briefly visited the 6th floor for a few minutes around noon before joining the others.
The same day Jarman's DPD affidavit says that Williams was outside around noon with the others. Nothing about any of the going to the 5th floor.
On the Sunday Oswald is killed in police custody.
On the Monday, Day discovers the lunch remnants are not those of the assassin but Williams informs him they were his.
On the Tuesday Norman is interviewed by the FBI and confirms Williams that the three watched the motorcade from the 5th floor.
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Not the same thing.
Bonnie Ray Williams didn't give the accused assassin a ride to work that morning.
No but his prints were allover the what the police claimed was "assassins lunch".
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As far as I can tell you are still the loner Howard.
that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.
Have you come up with a reverse-gorilla experiment to support your shared false memory theory yet?
KISS indeed.
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The STC (Stooge Conspiracy Theory) is an interesting exercise in conjecture but ultimately leads nowhere.
Although somehow I get the feeling the Saint Patsy defense team will eventually be claiming that BRW saw Jack Dougherty preparing to shoot JFK.
These clowns are so predictable.
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I can guarantee that no one will suggest that Dougherty was the shooter or was involved in any conspiracy to shoot JFK.
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I can guarantee that no one will suggest that Dougherty was the shooter or was involved in any conspiracy to shoot JFK.
Better talk to your BFF then.
"What made BRW vacate the 6th floor?
We don't know where Dougherty was just prior and just after the shots were fired."
Now what, Einstein ?
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No but his prints were allover the what the police claimed was "assassins lunch".
Which takes us right back to Williams having an iron clad alibi.
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Does not rule out as a potential accomplice.
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Does not rule out as a potential accomplice.
So is that what this is all about? Bonnie Ray Williams was a possible accomplice?
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So is that what this is all about? Bonnie Ray Williams was a possible accomplice?
No Bill. It's what BRW thought he might be implicated in given he was in the SN about 5 minutes or so before the shots. Also his chicken remnants and pop bottle had been subsequently referred to as the "assassin's lunch". The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.
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As far as I can tell you are still the loner Howard.
Have you come up with a reverse-gorilla experiment to support your shared false memory theory yet?
KISS indeed.
Revisit post #201 if you will, and note that I used 'Sherlock' in place of 'Stupid'
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Revisit post #201 if you will, and note that I used 'Sherlock' in place of 'Stupid'
Bill, visit post#230. I acknowledge you have more class.
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No Bill. It's what BRW thought he might be implicated in given he was in the SN about 5 minutes or so before the shots. Also his chicken remnants and pop bottle had been subsequently referred to as the "assassin's lunch". The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.
BRW testified that he arrived on the 6th at noon to eat his lunch, and was there '10, 12, 15' minutes I recall. Seems that gives him time to go downstairs then go up to the 5th with the others. And enough time for Oswald to show up in the SW corner, spotted playing soldier boy.
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Need to back track a bit. Jarman was interviewed by the FBI on the 24th.....the day Oswald was killed.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c00csK/Jarman_FBI_a.jpg)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nD77sK/Jarman_FBIb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/co77sK)
This statement is consistent with his DPD statement the previous day. The additional information largely centres on his presence on the fifth floor, who he was with at the time of the shots and his recollection of what happened immediately after. They talked about the location of the shots. In particular his recall of the positioning of himself and co-workers at the window is precise and accurate compared to the imprecise and inaccurate nature of Bonnie Ray.
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The next interviews were conducted by the Secret Service and occurred in the first week of December. They are included in WC Document 87.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cuuH9z/Williams_SS.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iSQPpz)
In this interview less than two weeks after the assassination Williams recalls the elevator race as they broke for lunch and Oswald calling for the lift. On the 6th floor he sat at windows "in the centre of the building". A Dr Pepper bottle and chicken bones were left together on the floor. He didn't see or hear anyone and only ate his lunch for a few minutes. The lunch was "finished", not partially eaten, and he left immediately for the 5th floor before 12.15pm. (Note 12.15 is mentioned specifically!). Heard only two shots coming from 6th floor but did not hear shells and bolt action. They went to west side windows and discussed what they should do as the shots had come from the 6th floor.
A policeman was seen near the stairway but Williams did not know if he was going up or down (note no mention of arrival by the elevator now). After five minutes they took the stairs down.
This interview essentially provided a similar story he told the FBI the day after the assassination except for some minor variance and added details. He now described the lunch consisting of a chicken bone sandwich and a Dr Pepper. He has been given the free pass by Day on the 25th November after Williams initial FBI interview. Day may have (inadvertently) provided a description of the final position of the chicken and bottle as found around 2pm on November 22 during that discussion.
Significantly he is sure he left before 12.15pm. No doubt there has been much talk between the TSBD workers of the events of November 22 and Oswald in the days since it occurred. Apparently he abandoned the idea of moving the lunchbreak earlier by 20 minutes. By this time the others members of the floor laying crew have been interviewed and they generally agreed the elevator race occurred at about 11.50am.
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Jarman was interviewed by the SS in the first week of December. His statement also formed part of WC document 87.
(https://preview.ibb.co/egwiXK/Jarman_ss.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ewNe6e)
Again Jarman said he saw Oswald take the elevator up sometime after 11.30am. The floor laying crew came down just before noon. After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor. He heard three shots but did not hear shells and bolt. They ran to the to the windows on the west side of the fifth floor after the shots. They discussed what they should do as they knew shots came from above and decided it was too dangerous to go to 6th floor. They waited 5 minutes before taking the stairs the down. He did not see the policeman (Baker) but remembered a woman on the fourth floor looking out the window.
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Here is Norman's Affidavit and the Extract from CD87 for comparison.
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
/s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
(https://preview.ibb.co/hJjCsK/norman_ss.jpg)
Norman now recalled sighting Oswald about 10am on the first floor. After eating his lunch he went with Jarman and Williams to the fifth floor about 12.15pm. Note that Jarman eventually provided a time for the ascent to the fifth floor in his January FBI statement as 12.25pm. They went to the SE corner to watch the motorcade. After the first shot he stuck his head out the window as it appeared to be from directly above his position. He heard three shots and they ran to the west side of the building. They discussed what to do and eventually left the building about 5 minutes later via the stairs.
By the middle of January the problem of Rowland's time of 12.15pm for the sighting of a gunman on the sixth floor must have been an issue for the investigators. Williams had told of visiting the sixth floor the day after the assassination, but we have statements provided from both Norman and Jarman that Williams accompanied them on the trip to the fifth floor.
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No Bill. It's what BRW thought he might be implicated in given he was in the SN about 5 minutes or so before the shots. Also his chicken remnants and pop bottle had been subsequently referred to as the "assassin's lunch". The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.
The fact that all three said in various statements that he came up with them on the elevator to the 5th floor.
So now what?
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Williams FBI interview Jan 14, 1964
(https://preview.ibb.co/k74Rme/williams_FBI_jan.jpg)
Williams interviewed again by the FBI about five weeks after the SS interviewed him. Williams again moved the time they broke for lunch earlier by claiming the elevator race occurred at 11.40am and stated he ate lunch on the 6th floor at noon. Note the consistency in a 20 minute interval between departing and arriving back on the 6th floor. Once again he recalled staying only a few minutes, leaving at 12.05pm, before joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor. In this interview he told that the motivation for going down was that he heard them below. According to this revised timeline he spends about 25 minutes with them before the motorcade arrives. Compare this with his first day statement, taken about 2 hours after the shots, where he stated that "just after we got on the 5th floor the motorcade arrived". In this report he further distanced himself from 12.15pm by effectively moving the departure time from the 6th floor back from 12.13 to 12.05!
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So now what?
Did you read the OP?
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On Jan 14 the FBI also interviewed Jarman
(https://preview.ibb.co/deFVez/Jarman_FBI_jan.jpg)
In this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon. This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25. Clearly serious issues are appearing regarding difference in the statements between Williams and Jarman in their movements before the shooting. Williams in his November 23 interview told (perhaps reluctantly) of his trip to eat lunch to the 6th floor before meeting up with Norman and Jarman. Now, seven weeks after the shooting, Jarman's version would have the three men together from the break for lunch until the time of the shots.
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Did you read the OP?
I've read the entire thread.
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I've read the entire thread.
So it?s up to you. If you think the three attempted to protect BRW when did that original discussion occur? The question is in the OP.
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You've truly lost it John, how is presenting a long list of corroborated evidence being dishonest?
You know damn well why it's dishonest. You posted a picture of the backyard photos and captioned it "Oswald possessed the rifle". But you haven't proven that the rifle in the backyard photos is the same rifle, and neither has anybody else.
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Oh by the way, the HSCA team of experts came to the same conclusion.
You know what else McNally said?
"It is standard practice in the profession of questioned document examination to make definitive conclusions only about documents examined in their original."
That's how you take a conclusion that's unscientific and biased to begin with and make it even less scientific.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/fd/f0/22fdf0b4e7a3d42c0aa377bff8bccc59.jpg)
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Some prints were found on the trigger guard area that were useless for identification purposes and one partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.
That smudge that Detective Day imagined to be a "Palm Print" was lifted from the foregrip of the carcano in the TSBD at about 1:45 pm that afternoon. Reporter Tom Alyea watched as Day lifted that smudge and place the cellophane tape on a index card, and then scribble the pertinent information on the card. That card was listed as item number 14 on the evidence inventory list for midnight 11/22/63. The FBI received that card on Saturday 11/23/63 and examined it....the FBI report said that the smudge was useless for identification purposes.
Yes, Walt, we all know the story that you have fabricated around this. Too bad your evidence list is undated, and you don't actually know when the FBI received it.
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No Rob wrong again, according to Kleins records the catalog number C20-T750 exactly matched a rifle with Serial number C2766, you know the same rifle with Oswald's prints that was found on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace.
The rifle allegedly found on the 6th floor is not a carbine.
"rifle with Oswald's prints". LOL.
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Your opinion over those of handwriting experts? It's a no-brainer.
Well, astrology experts said that it was not Oswald, because his moon was in Virgo. The dowsing experts and the I-Ching experts were divided.
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Please desist with your "supporting evidence" garbage because you're not fooling anyone.
Not only was all the Hidell handwriting matched to Oswald but he also had the Hidell ID in his wallet and the negative used to manufacture the ID was found in Oswald's possessions. Game Over Pal, game over!
Speaking of not fooling anyone....
Prove those negatives were used to manufacture that ID. There is no "Hidell" anywhere on those negatives. Next prove that those were "Oswald's possessions" and how you know that.
There was zero mention by anyone of a "Hidell" ID until after the Klein's order was dug up.
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You missed the point and have taken your quotes out of context, much like Oswald finally admitting that he came down from the 6th floor,
More blatant dishonesty from "Mytton". Oswald never admitted that he came down from the 6th floor.
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I did know, actually. I'm not a robot that remembers levery detail, especially a detail that doesn't change the fact that Marina laughed at his getup in the photos.
That doesn't stop you from being arrogant about the things you don't remember correctly.
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Well, astrology experts said that it was not Oswald, because his moon was in Virgo.
Well, that settles it then. Those astrology experts have provided the best exculpatory evidence yet.
Forget about the expert testimony and the physical and circumstantial evidence pointing to Saint Patsy's guilt. That's all meaningless and worthless.
Plus I just opened a fortune cookie that said it wasn't Oswald.
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Yes, Walt, we all know the story that you have fabricated around this. Too bad your evidence list is undated, and you don't actually know when the FBI received it.
The evidence inventory list does not have to have a date and time stamped on it if the examiner of the list is reasonably intelligent and can see that the original list does not identify the rifle as a "carcano carbine" because at midnight 11 /22/63 they did not know that the rifle was a Mannlicher Carcano..... (but on Saturday 11/23/63 they learned the rifle was called a Carcano)
And the original EI sheet listed item number six as....quote...." .38 cal pistol 2 inch barrel That's all nothing more ....
Whereas the "updated sheet" adds additional information which says that the pistol was released to FBI on 11 /22/63 and again on 11/26/63.
So the original sheet corroborates the "updated sheet of 11/26/63 by saying the gun was released to the FBI on 11/ 22/ 63 ...and sure enough that pistol IS listed on the evidence list on which the police did not yet know that the rifle was a Carcano.
Item number 14 on that original evidence inventory list is the... Quote..." 1 Partial palm " Off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip" on rifle #C, 2766
The words ..."Off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip" are in quotaion marks because they are being quoted from the 3 X 5 indwx card on which Lt Day had placed the cellophane tape that held the smudge that he imagined to be a print which he lifted from the foregrip of the carcano while examining it in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon. Tom Alyea was right ther watching as Day lifted that smuge and placed it on that index card.
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Well, astrology experts said that it was not Oswald, because his moon was in Virgo. The dowsing experts and the I-Ching experts were divided.
Do you consider hand writing analysis to be no more accurate than dowsing or astrology then?
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Well, that settles it then. Those astrology experts have provided the best exculpatory evidence yet.
Forget about the expert testimony and the physical and circumstantial evidence pointing to Saint Patsy's guilt. That's all meaningless and worthless.
Plus I just opened a fortune cookie that said it wasn't Oswald.
Exactly. That's about as useful as your "expert" handwriting "analysis".
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Do you consider hand writing analysis to be no more accurate than dowsing or astrology then?
Correct. They are all unscientific and subjective.
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Option 2.
Williams saw Oswald before he left. He says nothing about this to the DPD even though Oswald has been arrested and is the prime suspect. Williams is questioned about Oswald and the sixth floor.
If BRW had seen Oswald there, why would he have not just said so?
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Exactly. That's about as useful as your "expert" handwriting "analysis".
And fingerprint and ballistic and photographic experts too, no doubt.
All worthless.
Yawn.
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And fingerprint and ballistic and photographic experts too, no doubt.
So you think there is fingerprint, ballistic, and photographic analysis that demonstrates that Oswald shot JFK?
Do tell.
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So you think there is fingerprint, ballistic, and photographic analysis that demonstrates that Oswald shot JFK?
Do tell.
I don't THINK there's fingerprint, ballistic and photographic evidence that demonstrates Saint Patsy assassinated JFK, I KNOW there is.
Sorry Trolletti, not going to waste time going over the evidence again with you.
What's the point of doing so ?
For example: No need to rehash all the evidence that shows that your hero ordered, paid for, and possessed C2766 only to have you insist there is no such evidence so you can troll the forum with "Oswald's rifle, LOL" for the billionth time.
Be gone, Troll.
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I don't THINK there's fingerprint, ballistic and photographic evidence that demonstrates Saint Patsy assassinated JFK, I KNOW there is.
Sorry Trolletti, not going to waste time going over the evidence again with you.
Of course you're not. You're so transparent.
For example: No need to rehash all the evidence that shows that your hero ordered, paid for, and possessed C2766 only to have you insist there is no such evidence so you can troll the forum with "Oswald's rifle, LOL" for the billionth time.
Even if there was such evidence (something more than unscientific and biased handwriting "analysis" of two block letters on a photocopy of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order blank), that still doesn't get you to "Oswald shot JFK".
I know you wish it did.
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For JohnM......just came across this.....
In this FBI statement Williams claimed he heard Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cYLywe/287_ACA24_EE63_44_F8_ABAA_1_C284_CC5299_C.jpg)
Thanks Colin, I knew BRW said this somewhere and perhaps the reason he was reticent to mention the voices is because the best position to distinguish who was who would be from directly above and since BRW had committed himself to sitting somewhere in the middle, how clear would those voices be from so far away?
Btw thanks for posting all those affidavits and FBI reports it's good to have them in the one place.
JohnM
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Go to 43 minute mark.....youngster (likely Euins) reporting of a coloured man shooting.......
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Go to 43 minute mark.....youngster (likely Euins) reporting of a coloured man shooting.......
Yes, that was James Underwood reporting there.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
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Yes, that was James Underwood reporting there.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
What did Underwood hear?..... Was Euins saying that he saw a black man leaning out of a window ( Bonnie Ray Williams) And Euins (who didn't speak clearly) also said something about a man with a rifle..... Was Euins referring to one man??
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What did Underwood hear?..... Was Euins saying that he saw a black man leaning out of a window ( Bonnie Ray Williams) And Euins (who didn't speak clearly) also said something about a man with a rifle..... Was Euins referring to one man??
Where did you get the idea that Euins didn't speak clearly?
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Where did you get the idea that Euins didn't speak clearly?
As I recall Amos Euins had a speech impediment..... a lisp or something.....
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As I recall Amos Euins had a speech impediment..... a lisp or something.....
Doesn't sound like it to me.
Note, by the way, he says "pipe", not "rifle".
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Doesn't sound like it to me.
Note, by the way, he says "pipe", not "rifle".
Thank you....But I would still argue that Euins did NOT speak clearly and enunciate his words clearly....
And as you point out he said he saw a "pipe" ....... Makes me wonder "WHAT" the object was????
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There are some more documents that I need to add that relate to the OP and will do so when I get some time to do so.
However I would like to make the following observation. The vast majority who responded in the thread thought it likely, that given the circumstances, Norman and Jarman would lie to help Williams. We have early reports that a coloured man was reported as being involved in the shooting. Also it was widely broadcast that the assassin had lunch while waiting for the President. Without the corroborating evidence provided by the Dillard photo.......how good an alibi would it be for Norman and Jarman just saying Williams was with them at the time?
Up until Oswald's death Williams had only this for corroboration provided by Jarman's initial affidavit
"At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."
Also Willliams had changed his original story from going up with the others on the west elevator and after a few minutes the parade arrived to going to the 6th floor by himself and joining the others almost half an hour before the motorcade by the next day.
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The point of me introducing the early report was to show how Williams may have been influenced by the early events. His occupation of the SN just before the shots, his lunch being referred to as the assassin?s lunch and reports of a coloured shooter. I am unsure whether Williams ever heard this early report by Underwood but certainly by 2pm he is distancing himself from the 6th floor completely in his statement by lying that he ascended to watch the parade with the others.
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The point of me introducing the early report was to show how Williams may have been influenced by the early events. His occupation of the SN just before the shots, his lunch being referred to as the assassin?s lunch and reports of a coloured shooter. I am unsure whether Williams ever heard this early report by Underwood but certainly by 2pm he is distancing himself from the 6th floor completely in his statement by lying that he ascended to watch the parade with the others.
BRW knew the shots had come from above him the same as Jarman and Norman. Nobody had to tell them, they were scene looking up at the SN from where LHO had just fired the shots . BRW ate his lunch by the third set of windows where the crime scene photo's showed he was sitting.
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BRW knew the shots had come from above him the same as Jarman and Norman. Nobody had to tell them, they were scene looking up at the SN from where LHO had just fired the shots . BRW ate his lunch by the third set of windows where the crime scene photo's showed he was sitting.
Please read the OP so you can respond to the the argument proposed. The crime scene photos don?t show Williams sitting anywhere. Just where his lunch remnants were moved to. Then they were photographed around the time he was being interviewed at DPD.
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Is it possible that Euins saw the "pipe" at the same moment that James Powell took his photo of the TSBD?
No, because Powell's photo was taken after the assassination.
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No, because Powell's photo was taken after the assassination.
What proof do you have that the Powell photo was taken AFTER the murder?
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What proof do you have that the Powell photo was taken AFTER the murder?
I didn't say I had proof, but there's no reason to think it was taken before or during (your fabricated "rifle" sighting, and your "shadow readings" notwithstanding). What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?
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I didn't say I had proof, but there's no reason to think it was taken before or during (your fabricated "rifle" sighting, and your "shadow readings" notwithstanding). What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?
I believe I've told you..... Powell took the photo just minutes before the murder....His job was to take a photo of the face of the TSBD a couple of minutes before the motorcade passed by. The photo was intended to be "photographic proof" that Lee Oswald had fired AT AT JFK...... The photo shows something that could be a gun barrel sticking out of the SE corner window....
Powell didn't have a clue WHY he was ordered to take a photo of the building at the time that the ambulance was picking up the epileptic seizure victim....but he did take the picture.
Powell was as gullible as LHO....and did as he was ordered and kept his mouth shut.
If Tom Dillard hadn't spoiled the plot by inadvertently taking a photo DURING the shooting which showed that there was NOBODY behind that window at the time of the shooting the conspirators would have published the Powell photo with the caption...."Witness photographically captures Lee Harrrrrvey Ossssswald in the act of assassinating President Kennedy."
Tom Dillard wrecked the plot......Hoover's henchmen were forced to hid the Powell photo, and juggle the chronology of Dillard's photo.
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I believe I've told you..... Powell took the photo just minutes before the murder....His job was to take a photo of the face of the TSBD a couple of minutes before the motorcade passed by. The photo was intended to be "photographic proof" that Lee Oswald had fired AT AT JFK...... The photo shows something that could be a gun barrel sticking out of the SE corner window....
Yes, I know your story. What missing is any evidence that it's actually true.
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Yes, I know your story. What missing is any evidence that it's actually true.
If you knew..Then why did you ask this question?
What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?
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If you knew..Then why did you ask this question?
What would Powell's interest in the TSBD be at that time?
Because I wanted to see if you actually had any evidence of Powell's foreknowledge of the assassination. And no, you still don't.
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Jack Dougherty who worked at the TSBD building for 11 years testified to the Commission that he was on the 5th floor during the assassination and he was "alone". There was no James Jarmin or Bonney Ray Williams. On the 5th floor during the assassination. If you study the testimony of the three young Black men that were supposedly sitting under the sixth floor snipers nest their story's are all contradictory to each other. Jack Ruby used to sponsor young Black men who worked at his club.
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Jack Dougherty who worked at the TSBD building for 11 years testified to the Commission that he was on the 5th floor during the assassination and he was "alone". There was no James Jarmin or Bonney Ray Williams. On the 5th floor during the assassination. If you study the testimony of the three young Black men that were supposedly sitting under the sixth floor snipers nest their story's are all contradictory to each other. Jack Ruby used to sponsor young Black men who worked at his club.
Please explain the obvious presence of the three stooges ( FBI Pawns) Williams. Jarmin, and Norman in Tom Dillard's photo which he took during the shooting.
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Because I wanted to see if you actually had any evidence of Powell's foreknowledge of the assassination. And no, you still don't.
I don't know if Powell had foreknowledge of the coup d e'tat.... But I doubt that he did. He simply knew that he was supposed to take a photo of the face of the south face of the TSBD at the time the ambulance was picking up the "epileptic seizure" victim.
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Jack Dougherty who worked at the TSBD building for 11 years testified to the Commission that he was on the 5th floor during the assassination and he was "alone".
That is what he told Joe Ball. Dougherty stated that he was all over the place--1st floor 2nd-5th-6th. He couldn't seem to remember just when and where he ate his lunch he was so shaken.
But what interested me was how intensely Ball tried to get him to say that Oswald had his sackful of rifle when he saw him that morning....
Mr. BALL - Did he [Oswald] come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.
Mr. BALL - You saw him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/doughert.htm
"Or are you guessing?" ::)
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But what interested me was how intensely Ball tried to get him to say that Oswald had his sackful of rifle when he saw him that morning....http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/doughert.htm
"Or are you guessing?" ::)
Yeah, they were all about leading the witnesses. See also Markham and Tomlinson and Frazier.
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A month after the last interviews with Williams and Jarman the following "story" appeared in the Fort-Worth Star Telegram
(https://image.ibb.co/fixTXU/waldo.jpg)[/url]
Much of what was reported clearly points to Williams as the "witness" who could identify Oswald as the assassin.
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It seems that almost immediately the FBI and SS responded to a TV report at 8.30pm on Feb 9th of the news story above that appeared the next day in print.......
(https://image.ibb.co/iCsnsU/waldo1.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/eXUp6p/waldo2.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/hg6Qe9/waldo3.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/bWEHsU/waldo4.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/jgWSRp/scared.jpg)
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March 14th.....the Ruby Trial Concludes.
Next in the chronology is March 18th 1964. On that day Williams is sent an air mail special delivery letter to appear before the Warren Commission on March 24th.
Willens, Ball and Belin fly to Dallas to lay the groundwork for the field investigation.
Also an internal WC memo was sent from Joseph Ball and David Belin to Howard Willens. Ball and Belin were tasked with determining the "Identity of the Assassin" for the WC.
The memo is also dated March 18th 1964 and amongst a series of queries, statements and questions to Willens, the following appears on pages 3 and 4;
"Chicken Bone Story
Bonnie Ray Williams stated that he ate his lunch near the windows on the south side of the sixth floor.
His lunch consisted of a chicken sandwich and a bottle of Dr. Pepper.
The report is that chicken bones were found near a window on the sixth floor.
Have Williams describe the contents of his lunch.
The place where he ate his lunch.
Did he bring his lunch in a sack?
Did he see anyone on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch.
What time did he go down to the fifth floor?
Note: Was the sack ever found? If the sack was found, were there fingerprints on the sack?
See Ball-Belin memo pp 23-24."
Also in that memo is the following question with the obvious error.
Was Oswald on the sixth floor when Billy Lovelady (sic) returned to eat his lunch."
I assume that the last reference is to a previous memo to Willens. If anyone has that memo please send a link.
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A month after the last interviews with Williams and Jarman the following "story" appeared in the Fort-Worth Star Telegram
(https://image.ibb.co/fixTXU/waldo.jpg)[/url]
Much of what was reported clearly points to Williams as the "witness" who could identify Oswald as the assassin.
How utterly absurd!!!......Colin you apparently believe this silly tale has credence.....
Do you really believe that if this story was true, it wouldn't have been published on Neon billboards all over the United States??
Here you present an eyewitness that allegedly saw the arch Villain Lee Harrrrrvey Osssssswald Hisssss, Boooooo in the act of murdering the President and LBJ's "Blue Ribbon Committee" never even mentioned it???
April Fools Day is still seven months off, Colin........
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How utterly absurd!!!......Colin you apparently believe this silly tale has credence.....
Do you really believe that if this story was true, it wouldn't have been published on Neon billboards all over the United States??
Here you present an eyewitness that allegedly saw the arch Villain Lee Harrrrrvey Osssssswald Hisssss, Boooooo in the act of murdering the President and LBJ's "Blue Ribbon Committee" never even mentioned it???
April Fools Day is still seven months off, Colin........
Merely presenting events in the order that they happened Walt. The story did appear. How is it apparent to you that I believe it from what I posted?
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Merely presenting events in the order that they happened Walt. The story did appear. How is it apparent to you that I believe it from what I posted?
Colin, I've heard and read dozens of these absurd tales over the years..... If they are as obviously nonsense as this tale is, I don't give them a second thought, I and I sure as hell wouldn't add them to the pile of crap that many irrational readers will pick up and accept and refuse to cast aside as BS......Like the Mauser tale that many continue to believe.
IOW Why repeat the BS..... Unless your goal is to add to the mountain of confusion, of which there is already waaaaay to much
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Colin, I've heard and read dozens of these absurd tales over the years..... If they are as obviously nonsense as this tale is, I don't give them a second thought, I and I sure as hell wouldn't add them to the pile of crap that many irrational readers will pick up and accept and refuse to cast aside as BS......Like the Mauser tale that many continue to believe.
IOW Why repeat the BS..... Unless your goal is to add to the mountain of confusion, of which there is already waaaaay to much
My goal should be apparent from the OP. The story appeared 3 months after the shooting and six weeks before the three appeared before the WC. Others have queried already in this thread why wasn't some pressure exerted on Williams to say he saw Oswald. From the available evidence JohnM thinks that Williams saw him. I have suggested that the three planned to deceive the investigation because Williams was in the SN about 5 minutes before the shots. This is self evident in the consistency of Norman and Jarman and the changes to Williams' account over time prior to their appearance before the WC in late March '64.
Ball and Belin clearly see issues from the various statements and laid out questions listed above.
Specifically......
The place where he ate his lunch.
Did he see anyone on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch.
What time did he go down to the fifth floor?
I would also have asked...
Why he vacated the 6th floor.
and
Why his story changed.
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On March 19th, the day after Williams received his invitation to appear before the WC in less than a week he is reinterviewed by the FBI.
(https://image.ibb.co/nd7zrp/williams_march19a.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/cSSAxU/Williams_march19b.jpg)
In this interview there is no mention of the lunch or eating on the 6th floor. Interestingly he places the three men at the "windows at the centre of the building" on the 5th floor. He had previously used the same phrase for the lunch position on the 6th floor. Their position on the 5th floor was under SN in the SE corner not at centre of the building! Now he reported hearing 3 shots not 2 for the first time. Once again he recalled looking up but saw no one. Now after running to the west side he saw the Officer come up on the elevator. He did not see anyone come down the stairs. He now remembered Oswald on the 6th floor at 11.40am on the east side. Was this during the elevator race or a new separate sighting? About 10 minutes later Oswald was on the 5th floor near the east elevator as the men broke for lunch. I tend to believe this was a reference to the elevator race again attempting to place it earlier than it actually occurred. In this statement we discover that he was at City Hall from about 1 until 3.30pm on the day of the assassination.
Clearly this interview did not cover the questions asked by the Ball and Belin memo to Willens fromthe day before. Therefore it would seem that this interview was not triggered by that request.
I cannot find any interview with Williams that clarified the memo questions prior to his appearance before the WC. In his testimony it becomes apparent that Ball spent much time with Williams (and Jarman and Norman) four days before they testified in an attempt to make sense of events leading up to the shots.
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I have suggested that the three planned to deceive the investigation because Williams was in the SN about 5 minutes before the shots.
Yawn.
When and where and how did the three stooge conspiracy to deceive the investigation begin ? In the 2 minutes on the 5th floor after the shots were fired ?
And let's say the three stooges did conspire to deceive the investigation, is there a larger point you're trying to make regarding who the 'real' assassin(s) were ?
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Yawn.
When and where and how did the three stooge conspiracy to deceive the investigation begin ? In the 2 minutes on the 5th floor after the shots were fired ?
And let's say the three stooges did conspire to deceive the investigation, is there a larger point you're trying to make regarding who the 'real' assassin(s) were ?
From the OP Howard......When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
I don't know of anyone who suggested that their time on the 5th floor was just two minutes. Did you have a self-serving motive for knowingly reducing it or just ignorance of the evidence?
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Summary of Williams' Interviews and Statements before appearing before the WC.
Some key events arising from the numerous statements taken from Williams over a five month period can be corroborated.
There was an elevator race as the flooring crew broke for lunch.
Oswald was noticed on the 5th floor as the elevators descended.
The three watched the motorcade from the SE corner of the 5th floor of TSBD.
The shots that came from above (Williams only heard 2 shots only, 4 months later it changed to 3).
After the shots the men ran to the south west corner windows. They were understandably scared and discussed what to do.
He saw a white helmeted police officer arrive on the 5th floor although he was confused as to whether the officer arrived via the stairs or elevator and the direction of his arrival.
The men descended the stairs, after about 5 minutes, stopping briefly and noticing women on the 4th floor, eventually arriving on the first floor.
The questions posed by Ball and Belin in their March 18th memo are posed because;
Although initially stating to the DPD that all three men went to the 5th floor together, Williams eventually told the FBI of his return to the 6th floor. This was uncorroborated, in fact both Norman and Jarman had stated that he accompanied them to the 5th floor.
In early statements he went up for lunch about 20 minutes after the elevator race.
He ate his lunch on the 6th floor, eventually revealing it to consist of a chicken on the bone sandwich and a Dr Pepper in the SS interview on December 2nd.
He finished his lunch and placed the bones in the bag at a position close to the southern windows near the "centre of the building" near the Dr Pepper bottle. (Consistent with the configuration and the rough location known to Day via Studebaker) but inconsistent with the statements of the numerous officers first on the scene.
He remained on the 6th floor only a few minutes before joining Jarman and Norman.
His means of descent to the 5th floor was unclear, stairs or elevator?
The arrival time on the 6th floor was sometime around noon and left to join his workmates sometime between 12.05 and 12.13pm. He was definitely gone before 12.15, coincidentally the time the gunman was seen on the 6th floor by Arnold Rowland.
Williams joined his workmates at least 15 minutes before the shooting because he heard them below while eating his lunch. (Obviously, for this to be true, Norman and Jarman had to be in position in the windows on the 5th floor before 12.15pm).
He heard 2 shots that came from above and glanced up(4 months later it changed to 3).
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Norman March 18 FBI Interview
Also on March 18th Norman provided the following brief statement.
(https://image.ibb.co/jKxo2U/norman_march.jpg)
It adds little to his story. He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and that he felt the shots occurred at this time. One could argue it might be a another attempt to allow Williams to be clear of the 6th floor by 12.15pm as there was again no indication that Williams joined them at the windows just before the motorcade.
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From the OP Howard......When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
I don't know of anyone who suggested that their time on the 5th floor was just two minutes. Did you have a self-serving motive for knowingly reducing it or just ignorance of the evidence?
More yawns.
Your conspiracy theory. You explain when, where and how the stooge conspiracy began.
I don't care if you think the stooges spent 30 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours on the 5th floor after the shots. It's your stooge conspiracy theory, you tell me when where and how it began.
And when you're done doing that, explain what meaning your 'suggested' stooge conspiracy, if true, has.
Is there is a larger point you're trying to make with your 'suggested' stooge conspiracy ?
Actually, you're not just 'suggesting' there was a stooge conspiracy, you're convinced there was a stooge conspiracy and claiming it as a fact.
Problem for you is, you can't explain when where or how the stooge conspiracy began and you don't like it when you're asked to provide those details or explain what meaning your 'suggested' stooge conspiracy has.
Going nowhere fast.
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More yawns.
Your conspiracy theory. You explain when, where and how the stooge conspiracy began.
I don't care if you think the stooges spent 30 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours on the 5th floor after the shots. It's your stooge conspiracy theory, you tell me when where and how it began.
And when you're done doing that, explain what meaning your 'suggested' stooge conspiracy, if true, has.
Is there is a larger point you're trying to make with your 'suggested' stooge conspiracy ?
Actually, you're not just 'suggesting' there was a stooge conspiracy, you're convinced there was a stooge conspiracy and claiming it as a fact.
Problem for you is, you can't explain when where or how the stooge conspiracy began and you don't like it when you're asked to provide those details or explain what meaning your 'suggested' stooge conspiracy has.
Going nowhere fast.
If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
Thanks Steve, I think you've pretty much nailed how the Black employees in general would have felt in 1963 and specifically Williams being on the same floor as where shots were fired from, would have given him a reason to be very worried.
Shtiscared?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
JohnM
Thumb1:
That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.
They lied to save BRW's skin.
and priceless.....
So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?
Guess it's possible.
To date only one person in this thread thinks that Williams, Norman and Jarman had a common erroneous recollection recorded by the authorities in the days after the events. Actually Williams was recorded within 2 hours of the assassination. You will notice that many are from the LN camp. Replies seem to have died down recently.
Hopefully my posting of the actual documents in chronological order has been beneficial, as noted by JohnM. As noted even Ball and Belin were suspicious of Williams lunch story......although seemingly oblivious to the lies of his co-witnesses. They spent some time in the third week of March in Dallas trying to sort the true "story" out and pre-preparing them for their upcoming testimonies before the WC.
No one is forcing you to read the thread Howard. I do not expect any meaningful contribution from you other than you have already supplied. For that thankyou.
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So no answer as to when where and how the stooge conspiracy began ?
That's what I figured.
Oh, I appreciate you thanking me for my meaningful contribution to the thread.
You're welcome.
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So no answer as to when where and how the stooge conspiracy began ?
That's what I figured.
Oh, I appreciate you thanking me for my meaningful contribution to the thread.
You're welcome.
From the first post in the thread......
When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
It may surprise you Howard but I do not know the answer......that is why I asked. I have a notion that it likely occurred before Williams departed with Shelley and Arce to the DPD to make his affidavit.....ie some time in the first hour after the shooting.
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From the first post in the thread......
When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
It may surprise you Howard but I do not know the answer......that is why I asked. I have a notion that it likely occurred before Williams departed with Shelley and Arce to the DPD to make his affidavit.....ie some time in the first hour after the shooting.
Colin, it doesn't surprise me at all that you don't know the answer.
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I wasn't expecting an answer from you Howard........after all......
I'm just not as smart as you are.
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Time to tackle Ball and Belin's questions with the evidence available to us. First up.....where was the lunch found.
Chicken Bone Story
Bonnie Ray Williams stated that he ate his lunch near the windows on the south side of the sixth floor.
The place where he ate his lunch.
Luke Mooney was first on the scene of the SN. His initial report mentions the lunch.
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date: November 23 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Vickery to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dock at the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Vickery went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signalled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webster, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing. At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons. We continued to search the building for a suspect.
Note that Mooney does not mention the lunch prior to discovery of the SN.
McCurley's Report
(https://image.ibb.co/kn5KRp/Mc_Culrley.jpg)
Officer A. D. McCurley, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office (Statement 11/22/63)
Officer Jack Faulkner and I, together with several other City officers went to the building and started checking the floors. We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney, who was also on the 6th floor, hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw 3 expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide from the view of anyone who happened to come up on that floor and had arranged 3 other cartons of books next to the window as though to make a rifle rest. This area was roped off and guarded until Captain Will Fritz of Dallas Police Department Homicide Bureau arrived. It was about this same time that Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone yelled that he had found the rifle which had been placed between some rows of cardboard boxes near the staircase which leads down to the 5th floor.
Officer Jack Faulkner
There were also some chicken bones. Evidently he had chicken for his lunch. There were people that worked with him that had left maybe at noon. I don't know where they went because I didn't investigate that part of it. I've also heard of a bag which carried the rifle, but I never saw that. It could have been there, but I didn't notice it.
From "No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy" - Larry A. Sneed
Officer Roger Craig, Deputy Sheriff
Mr. BELIN - About how soon after they were found did you see them, laying on the floor?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell---or what?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember who that was?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you say there was a sack laying there?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BELIN - How big a sack was that?
Mr. CRAIG - It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag.
Mr. BELIN - Well, the kind-of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr. CRAIG - Yeah,--uh-huh.
Gerald Hill also recalls the finding of the SN and the Chicken Leg and Bag of top of the SN Boxes
Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.
At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab.
(https://preview.ibb.co/heOUbp/hilla.jpg)
Harry Weatherford
The 11-23-63 report of Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford notes "I came down to the 6th floor, and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said "here are some shells." I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade."
Officer Brewer
Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see?
Mr. BREWER. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Where were they?
Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window.
Mr. BELIN. What window?
Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece at chicken.
Officer Haygood
Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.
Mr. BELIN. Which window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.
Eugene Boone
Mentions seeing the chicken before discovering the rifle in his Oral History with the 6th Floor Museum.
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I wasn't expecting an answer from you Howard.
But I was expecting one from you. Your theory pal, not mine.
Again, not surprised you don't have an answer.
When, where and how did the Stooge Conspiracy begin ?
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Given the assembled evidence it would appear that the chicken lunch was found in the SN. This is consistent with every officer mentioned above who appeared on the scene immediately after Mooney. What it tells us is that the assassin shot in a SN with chicken bones an unfinished chicken piece and a lunch sack. Hence the early reports of the "assassin?s lunch". If this belonged to Williams it is logical to assume that he ate the chicken in the open SE corner window and not where he claimed....behind closed windows near to the middle of the building.
Williams lied in his statements. The place where he ate his lunch was one of the things he lied about.
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But I was expecting one from you. Your theory pal, not mine.
Again, not surprised you don't have an answer.
When, where and how did the Stooge Conspiracy begin ?
Patience Howard......it?s virtuous.
I wonder if Dr Spooner would refer to you as a shining wit.
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Patience Howard......it?s virtuous.
I wonder if Dr Spooner would refer to you as a shining wit.
;D
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Patience Howard......it?s virtuous.
I wonder if Dr Spooner would refer to you as a shining wit.
Ah yes...The guy who got his tongue tangled and toasted Queen Victoria by saying ..."Here's to our queer old dean"
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Patience Howard......it?s virtuous.
Colin, this is only page 32 of the thread.
When can we expect an answer from you ? Any time soon ?
When, where, and how did the stooge conspiracy begin ?
Patience is a virtue, so is punctuality.
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I don't know of anyone who suggested that their time on the 5th floor was just two minutes. Did you have a self-serving motive for knowingly reducing it or just ignorance of the evidence?
Ignorance of the evidence. Which he then tries to cover by being belligerent.
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Colin, this is only page 32 of the thread.
When can we expect an answer from you ? Any time soon ?
When, where, and how did the stooge conspiracy begin ?
Patience is a virtue, so is punctuality.
You seem to think that my asking a question in the OP was associated with a predetermined answer. This is a common MO and one often associated with this subject in particular. I don't have the answers for you at present but I remain optimistic, with the help of the thoughts of those who have taken time to consider the evidence I have posted, I am still hopeful we can come up with a "best guess". I think at least the "when" may help determine the "where" and possibly the "how".
Might I leave you with this to ponder.....
?The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.?
― Bertrand Russell, Mortals and Others: American Essays 1931-35
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I would not like to address the other question posed by Ball and Belin.
What time did Williams leave the 6th floor?
No witness claimed to see Williams ascend to the 6th floor, other than the untruthful statements of Norman and Jarman, so that we have no way of determining his arrival on the 6th floor. His departure time is more important however as we have seen the discovery of his lunch in the SN places him in the supposed position of the assassin.
We do have some "time-point" events that can be used as markers however as well as rough time estimates. The first such "time-points" is the "elevator race" that occurred when the floor-laying crew left the 6th floor to break for lunch. When all participants statements are considered it is generally accepted that this occurred about 11.50am, 40 minutes before the assassination.
Here are the various statements of Williams as to when the elevator-race took place, when he arrived on the 6th floor, when he left to go to the 5th floor and why he might have departed.
11/22/63 - DPD
Elevator race ?about 10 minutes to 12?
?just after we got to 5th floor we saw the President?
no mention of trip to 6th floor
11/23/63 - FBI
Elevator race about 11.30am
6th floor at noon
No indication anyone on the 5th floor before leaving
Joined Jarman and Norman on 5th floor at 12.03 via the stairs
12/2/63 - SS
Elevator race ?shortly before noon?
Ate lunch on 6th floor for ?just a few minutes?
No indication anyone on the 5th floor before leaving
Joined Jarman and Norman ?prior to 12.15.pm?
1/14/64 ? FBI
Elevator race 11.40pm
Heard Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor
Joined Jarman and Norman about 12.05pm via the west elevator
3/19/64 ? FBI
Elevator race 11.40am
No mention of lunch or joining Jarman and Norman
3/24/64 ? WC
Elevator race 11.50am
Ate lunch ?about noon?
?Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.?
Joined Jarman and Norman after 5-12 minutes via east elevator
5/26/64 ? FBI
Elevator race between 11.30 and noon
Left 6th floor between noon and 12.15pm because he ?heard voices below?
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I don't have the answers for you at present but I remain optimistic, with the help of the thoughts of those who have taken time to consider the evidence I have posted, I am still hopeful we can come up with a "best guess". I think at least the "when" may help determine the "where" and possibly the "how"
Has it ever occurred to you the reason you don't have the answers is because there was never any Stooge conspiracy to begin with ?
LMAO @ needing the help of others to come up with a 'best guess'.
Going nowhere fast.
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So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?
Guess it's possible.
But keep in mind the three stooges were not close knit friends. In fact, they barely knew each other. Wasn't there something in this thread about BRW only transferring to the depository a month earlier and not knowing one of the other stooge's first name ?
You have anything more worthwhile to add to the discussion? Your guess was same as mine.
I gather you don?t object to the chicken lunch being found by Mooney in the SN as he testified? If so let?s debate otherwise I will take your silence as agreement and I can add you to that group.
We have now moved onto the time of Williams' descent....in case you hadn?t noticed. What do you think from his various statements?
Do you know whether you ass fell off yet?
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You have anything more worthwhile to add to the discussion? Your guess was same as mine.
I gather you don?t object to the chicken lunch being found by Mooney in the SN as he testified? If so let?s debate otherwise I will take your silence as agreement and I can add you to that group.
We have now moved onto the time of Williams' descent....in case you hadn?t noticed. What do you think from his various statements?
Do you know whether you ass fell off yet?
Stil there, Colin.
I actually agree with you that BRW probably ate his lunch in the SE corner window.
However, that's unrelated to the question of whether a Stooge conspiracy transpired to cover that up.
Again, if you're going to postulate a Stooge conspiracy, you need to have a plausible explanation as to when, where and how the conspiracy was hatched.
Let's face it, the only plausible time for such a conspiracy to be hatched is in the scant moments the Stooges spent on the 5th floor before going downstairs.
Sorry, but I'm not buying.
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Stil there, Colin.
I actually agree with you that BRW probably ate his lunch in the SE corner window.
However, that's unrelated to the question of whether a Stooge conspiracy transpired to cover that up.
Again, if you're going to postulate a Stooge conspiracy, you need to have a plausible explanation as to when, where and how the conspiracy was hatched.
Let's face it, the only plausible time for such a conspiracy to be hatched is in the scant moments the Stooges spent on the 5th floor before going downstairs.
Sorry, but I'm not buying.
You?re not buying your own theory......brilliant.
But we have made progress. Williams was in the SN. Thumb1:
We have a situation where the three were directly below the SN. A place where Williams had been before joining his workmates. Williams had been expecting others to join him and he finally leaves and joins Norman and Jarman below. Is it likely in the time together before the parade arrives that Williams (or the others) talk about where he came from? Maybe.... Shots ring out and they claim they knew they were from just above them. They spend five minutes or more in fear wondering what to do. Does Williams say at that point he was just there at that point? Likely? They go downstairs and try to leave. Sent back inside and details taken. After the gun is found Fritz instructs Senkel to gather all those who worked on the 6th floor that day to be taken downtown. Before Williams departs do you think he told the others about his trip to the 6th floor to eat lunch?
Another question for anyone. Check Williams affidavit an hour or so after the shots.....he talks about Givens not being present. How does he know that Givens was absent at that time?
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I'm not buying my own theory ?
What theory would that be ?
Did BRW tell the other 2 stooges he just ate his lunch where they thought the shots came from ?
I don't know. I'd say it's possible, maybe even probable.
But it's a huge leap to go from telling the Stooges he was just up there to asking them to lie for him and them agreeing to do so.
BTW, how did you arrive at 5 minutes for the time it took the Stooges to go downstairs ?
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I'm not buying my own theory ?
What theory would that be ?
Did BRW tell the other 2 stooges he just ate his lunch where they thought the shots came from ?
I don't know. I'd say it's possible, maybe even probable.
But it's a huge leap to go from telling the Stooges he was just up there to asking them to lie for him and them agreeing to do so.
BTW, how did you arrive at 5 minutes for the time it took the Stooges to go downstairs ?
I can see some baby step progress. So now you can see it is probable that the three knew the significance of Williams' whereabouts prior to his departure with the police about an hour or so later.
As for the 5 minute time estimation, from memory i obtained it from the various statements of the three. It was fairly consistent. In addition there are other corroborating events that can be used to support the estimate. The appearance of Baker on the 5th floor. Two of them being identified by Brennan attempting to leave. There seeing women on the 4th floor etc. If you trust me without rehashing through my all notes.....the five minutes seems reasonable. Might have been four or six but doesn?t really matter I think.
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Could have been 2, 3 or 4 too, right ?
You still havent explained what you meant by 'not buying your own theory...brilliant'
Baby steps.
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Could have been 2, 3 or 4 too, right ?
You still havent explained what you meant by 'not buying your own theory...brilliant'
Baby steps.
No it could not be two minutes. As I said you need to factor in the other events mentioned by other witnesses and what timeframe they occur. I will stick with 5 minutes. If you find something to support two go for it. Just don?t hold your breath trying to develop a solid argument.
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No it could not be two minutes. As I said you need to factor in the other events mentioned by other witnesses and what timeframe they occur. I will stick with 5 minutes. If you find something to support two go for it. Just don?t hold your breath trying to develop a solid argument.
OK, stick with 5.
You still havent explained what you meant by 'not buying your own theory...brilliant'
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Stil there, Colin.
I actually agree with you that BRW probably ate his lunch in the SE corner window.
Let's face it, the only plausible time for such a conspiracy to be hatched is in the scant moments the Stooges spent on the 5th floor before going downstairs.
Sorry, but I'm not buying.
You claim that the "only plausible time" to be hatched is "in the scant moments the Stooges spent on the 5th floor before going downstairs".
Your theory not mine. That?s the theory your not buying based on a false premise. Brilliant.
There were far more than scant minutes as already explained.
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Another point worth mentioning is that the three men were clearly important witnesses and two had been identified early, within minutes trying to leave the building by Brennan to police. Yet only Williams was taken to DPD that afternoon but only because he was identified as one of the workers on the 6th floor that morning.
This indicates to me that the three were not immediately forthcoming to the authorities in the TSBD with what they had witnessed. Other far less important witnesses were taken to make statements that afternoon yet Jarman and Norman were simply released and went home. Presumably Williams initial statement that mentioned them caused the FBI to interview Jarman the next day and Norman finally on the following Tuesday.
Williams (and the other two) knew that Brennan had seen them on the Fifth floor and failed to come forward with what they knew voluntarily and as we see Williams is deliberately deceptive in his first statement. Jarman too supplies nothing about the fifth floor trip in his initial statement.
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Hmmmm, seems to me you were discussing whether BRW at his lunch in the sniper's nest and when I told you that I agreed that he probably did, you responded with the 'not buying your own theory...brilliant' remark.
But OK, you were actually referring to the time the Stooges spent on the 5th floor after the shots.
Let's go with that.
And let's go with 5 minutes.
Let's reconstruct the hatching of the Stooge conspiracy.
One of the Stooges is still looking out the SE window about 30 seconds after the shots.
Let's say about 30 seconds later, all 3 Stooges are assembled on the west side of the 5th floor.
You take it from here.
I've spotted you the when and where help you asked for.
Think you can reconstruct the 'how' ?
Earlier in this thread I posted an imaginary conversation amongst the 3 Stooges in which they hatch and formulate the conspiracy, but it seemed silly to me that the stooges would be discussing covering for BRW being in the SN one minute after the shots rang out.
Go for it.
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Jarman
11/23/63
At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
The day after Williams said that he, Jarman and Norman all travelled to the 5th floor and were only there a few minutes before the parade arrived, Jarman mentions nothing of this trip and the implication is that all the employees were outside watching the parade....except Oswald of course. The only information that can be gleaned from this statement is the approximate time of the "elevator race".
Williams tells the FBI the same day that he briefly visited the 6th floor.
Jan 14 FBI
Returned to 5th floor about 12.25
March 24 WC
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Norman
December 4 - SS
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me.
March 18 - FBI
He was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20
March 24 - WC
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James and I
A crosscheck with the DPD radiologs indicates the Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm.
Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25. They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 5th floor. This would take about a minute or so at walking speed. The elevator took about 45 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position around 12.25-27 depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.
Williams was with them for only 3-5 minutes before the motorcade passed the TSBD. If he vacated the 6th floor at the time they first arrived below him, he was in the SN until 12.25, just 5 minutes before the shots.
The answer to Ball and Belin's question.
Williams left the 6th floor no sooner than 12.25pm.
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Hmmmm, seems to me you were discussing whether BRW at his lunch in the sniper's nest and when I told you that I agreed that he probably did, you responded with the 'not buying your own theory...brilliant' remark.
But OK, you were actually referring to the time the Stooges spent on the 5th floor after the shots.
Let's go with that.
And let's go with 5 minutes.
Let's reconstruct the hatching of the Stooge conspiracy.
One of the Stooges is still looking out the SE window about 30 seconds after the shots.
Let's say about 30 seconds later, all 3 Stooges are assembled on the west side of the 5th floor.
You take it from here.
I've spotted you the when and where help you asked for.
Think you can reconstruct the 'how' ?
Earlier in this thread I posted an imaginary conversation amongst the 3 Stooges in which they hatch and formulate the conspiracy, but it seemed silly to me that the stooges would be discussing covering for BRW being in the SN one minute after the shots rang out.
Go for it.
Howard, you obviously don?t believe me when I say I have not worked this out as yet. In fact to be honest this thread is as much for me to attempt to work out the evidence in chronological order as see where it takes me. This is the only way I can make any sense of this stuff. I will continue but it?s late here. As you can see I will only use official statements to build an argument and look for corroboration where ever possible. Consider this though.....as I have said it may be that whatever was said happened only after they were sent back inside after Brennan identified them. Certainly something happened before the first week of December, where both Jarman and Norman both came up with Williams initial false story about them all going up together at about 12.25.
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Jan 14 FBI
Returned to 6th floor about 12.25
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Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25. They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 6th floor.
------------------------------
Williams left the 6th floor no sooner than 12.25pm.
I think you meant to say 5th floor in the first two quotes.
Now that you've rehashed the evidence for the umpteenth time and feel you have established BRW was on the 6th floor until 12:25 PM, can we get back to the Stooge Conspiracy that I'm assuming began around 12:32 PM ?
Try to stay focused.
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Howard, you obviously don?t believe me when I say I have not worked this out as yet. In fact to be honest this thread is as much for me to attempt to work out the evidence in chronological order as see where it takes me. This is the only way I can make any sense of this stuff. I will continue but it?s late here.
Colin, I believe you haven't worked this out. I'm just providing the help you requested earlier to help you work it out.
Obviously, I don't believe there was a Stooge conspiracy, but that doesn't mean I won't try to assist you.
Get your rest. We'll take this up again later.
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Another point worth mentioning is that the three men were clearly important witnesses and two had been identified early, within minutes trying to leave the building by Brennan to police. Yet only Williams was taken to DPD that afternoon but only because he was identified as one of the workers on the 6th floor that morning.
This indicates to me that the three were not immediately forthcoming to the authorities in the TSBD with what they had witnessed. Other far less important witnesses were taken to make statements that afternoon yet Jarman and Norman were simply released and went home. Presumably Williams initial statement that mentioned them caused the FBI to interview Jarman the next day and Norman finally on the following Tuesday.
Williams (and the other two) knew that Brennan had seen them on the Fifth floor and failed to come forward with what they knew voluntarily and as we see Williams is deliberately deceptive in his first statement. Jarman too supplies nothing about the fifth floor trip in his initial statement.
This indicates to me that the three were not immediately forthcoming to the authorities in the TSBD with what they had witnessed.
I disagree.... I don't believe the three stooges were being uncooperative and evasive.....However, I suspect that the authorities knew that there was a distinct possibility that BRW might have seen the khaki clad "deputy Sheriff" ( the man that Arnold Rowland saw and assumed was a security guard ) on the sixth floor and they wanted to be sure of what he'd seen before leaving the sixth floor.
Other far less important witnesses were taken to make statements that afternoon yet Jarman and Norman were simply released and went home. Presumably Williams initial statement that mentioned them caused the FBI to interview Jarman the next day and Norman finally on the following Tuesday.
Yes....The authorities ( Hoover's Extra Special Agents) wanted to to be certain that Bonnie Ray hadn't told them anything about seeing a Khaki clad "Deputy Sheriff" on the sixth floor immediately prior to the shooting.
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Jarman
11/23/63
At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
The day after Williams said that he, Jarman and Norman all travelled to the 5th floor and were only there a few minutes before the parade arrived, Jarman mentions nothing of this trip and the implication is that all the employees were outside watching the parade....except Oswald of course. The only information that can be gleaned from this statement is the approximate time of the "elevator race".
Williams tells the FBI the same day that he briefly visited the 6th floor.
Jan 14 FBI
Returned to 5th floor about 12.25
March 24 WC
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Norman
December 4 - SS
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me.
March 18 - FBI
He was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20
March 24 - WC
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James and I
A crosscheck with the DPD radiologs indicates the Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm.
Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25. They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 5th floor. This would take about a minute or so at walking speed. The elevator took about 45 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position around 12.25-27 depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.
Williams was with them for only 3-5 minutes before the motorcade passed the TSBD. If he vacated the 6th floor at the time they first arrived below him, he was in the SN until 12.25, just 5 minutes before the shots.
The answer to Ball and Belin's question.
Williams left the 6th floor no sooner than 12.25pm.
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
This is exactly what Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz he witnessed as he was eating his lunch in the first floor lunchroom....
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As for the 5 minute time estimation, from memory i obtained it from the various statements of the three.
Norman's affidavit:
"From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes."
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Norman's affidavit:
"From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes."
That seems reasonable..... They would have arrived at the entrance to the TSBD at about 12:36 / 12:38....and Brennan was talking to the cop and recognized them as the men he's seen hanging out of the fifth floor windows at the time of the shooting.... Incidentally... Brennan did NOT say that he saw the man who was STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a window was behind the window above those three men. It would seem reasonable that Brennan would have noticed that the rifle was directly above them if the rifle had been there.
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What Williams knew (or may have known) at the time of first affidavit.
There had been shots fired at the motorcade, possibly from a position he had been just five minutes before.
The three moved to the SW corner and discussed what they should do.
About 3-4 minutes after the shots a policeman was on the 5th floor.
They decided to take the stairs down and after pausing briefly on the 4th floor attempted to leave the building.
From memory Jarman and Williams attempted to leave via the front steps while Norman did not attempt to exit but stayed in the middle of the first floor.
They were sent back inside by police after being identified by Brennan as being on the floor below the SN at the time of the shooting.
After returning inside, likely about the time the rifle is found on the 6th floor, it became apparent that Oswald was not present and it is possible that this became known to the other workers.
It is possible that Givens absence was also discussed, as he too is mentioned in the affidavit.
Shortly after the discovery of the rifle, Fritz instructs Senkel to round up all those who had been working on the 6th floor that morning and take them for questioning and preparation of affidavits.
Accordingly, Williams, Shelley and Arce are taken in one car and Lovelady and Dougherty in another.
After arriving Williams notices Oswald has been apprehended and brought in to HQ.
He is specifically questioned about Oswald?s movements that morning.
Anyone think of anything I have missed?
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Who believes that by the time Williams was taken to the DPD to make his affidavit Jarman and Norman were unaware that he had been on the 6th floor prior to joining them ?
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Seems we are making progress. No one disagrees with the statement.
Already we have no serious objection to Williams being in the SN. Not only that but the available testimonies when analysed indicate he was there until 12.25pm.
Must make all those Arnold Rowland deniers look a bit silly......but let?s not get sidetracked. It seems obvious why Williams would not want to have told of his 6th floor sojourn in his affidavit. Also as Brennan had identified him within minutes he had no choice but to tell of the viewing of the motorcade from the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman.
About the time Williams was providing his statement to the DPD Det Johnson brings the remnants of his lunch back to the station. This would be widely reported by the news media as the assassin?s lunch for many days after the event. Williams was released at 3.30pm that day.
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Seems we are making progress. No one disagrees with the statement.
Already we have no serious objection to Williams being in the SN. Not only that but the available testimonies when analysed indicate he was there until 12.25pm.
Must make all those Arnold Rowland deniers look a bit silly......but let?s not get sidetracked. It seems obvious why Williams would not want to have told of his 6th floor sojourn in his affidavit. Also as Brennan had identified him within minutes he had no choice but to tell of the viewing of the motorcade from the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman.
About the time Williams was providing his statement to the DPD Det Johnson brings the remnants of his lunch back to the station. This would be widely reported by the news media as the assassin?s lunch for many days after the event. Williams was released at 3.30pm that day.
I'm not sure where you're going with this ..... Are you attempting to verify that the three stooges cooked up a tale to avoid the evidence of BRW being on the sixth floor until about 12:25?
I do not accept that those three conspired to hide the fact that BRW was on the sixth floor..... Any confusing or conflicting information that is attributed to any of them is probably the results of the FBI twisting the information that they received from those easily manipulated young Negroes.
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I'm not sure where you're going with this ..... Are you attempting to verify that the three stooges cooked up a tale to avoid the evidence of BRW being on the sixth floor until about 12:25?
I do not accept that those three conspired to hide the fact that BRW was on the sixth floor..... Any confusing or conflicting information that is attributed to any of them is probably the results of the FBI twisting the information that they received from those easily manipulated young Negroes.
Read the evidence presented Walt. It is FBI and SS statements. Williams tried to hide the fact that he was on the sixth floor but had to fess up. Jarman and Norman wanted nothing to do with Williams on the 6t floor and claimed he came up with them for months. Guilt by association pure and simple.
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Read the evidence presented Walt. It is FBI and SS statements. Williams tried to hide the fact that he was on the sixth floor but had to fess up. Jarman and Norman wanted nothing to do with Williams on the 6t floor and claimed he came up with them for months. Guilt by association pure and simple.
Williams also changed his version of events on multiple occasions. When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
I'm not sure that any of the three stooges changed their version of the events.... I believe the FBI twisted the various versions and that made it appear that those young guys were changing their stories....
The authorities were bent on discrediting anybody who had useful information to relate.
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Williams also changed his version of events on multiple occasions. When did these three conspire to deceive the authorities regarding Williams' true movements prior to the shooting?
I'm not sure that any of the three stooges changed their version of the events.... I believe the FBI twisted the various versions and that made it appear that those young guys were changing their stories....
The authorities were bent on discrediting anybody who had useful information to relate.
As I wrote, if you go back and look at the evidence you will see a signed statement by Norman and the summary that was prepared from it. There is no distorting of his signed document. The assembled evidence collected before Belin and Ball visited Dallas clearly showed that all three has falselyclaimed Williams came with the others when the official story after their WC appearance develops otherwise. This is not a question of whether but when it was decided. My conclusion is that the other two wanted to stick with the original story as they originally agreed. They felt guilt by association with Williams who they had only known a few weeks.
This is why I provided all the evidence I could find and posted it here in chronological order. For those interested in meaningful debate of the facts as proven. Many started to offer an opinion but now seem reluctant to proceed.
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As I wrote, if you go back and look at the evidence you will see a signed statement by Norman and the summary that was prepared from it. There is no distorting of his signed document. The assembled evidence collected before Belin and Ball visited Dallas clearly showed that all three has falselyclaimed Williams came with the others when the official story after their WC appearance develops otherwise. This is not a question of whether but when it was decided. My conclusion is that the other two wanted to stick with the original story as they originally agreed. They felt guilt by association with Williams who they had only known a few weeks.
This is why I provided all the evidence I could find and posted it here in chronological order. For those interested in meaningful debate of the facts as proven. Many started to offer an opinion but now seem reluctant to proceed.
Colin....The point is:.... Those three stooges would have said whatever the FBI wanted them to say. So simply because they are on record as having said something does NOT mean it is the factual truth. If the FBI had wanted them to say that they were doing headstands on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting ....The FBI would have fed them that idea and they would have agreed....
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Colin....The point is:.... Those three stooges would have said whatever the FBI wanted them to say. So simply because they are on record as having said something does NOT mean it is the factual truth. If the FBI had wanted them to say that they were doing headstands on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting ....The FBI would have fed them that idea and they would have agreed....
Walt, some of the statements were DPD, some were SS, some were FBI and some were WC. I do agree that issues were caused because the various authorities had "communication" issues. The question is, do you think Williams was on the 6th floor immediately before the shots? If so, he and Norman and Jarman all lied at various times about that. Also consider if you are correct then we are wasting our time debating anything as how do we know any facts have not been altered? The facts I have presented are corroborated from documented evidence. If you are right they would have fed the story that Williams saw Oswald as the shooter and he would have agreed.....right? Does that story sound familiar.......Waldo!
But I digress. I find this supposed forum perplexing. They are many here who voice opinion on almost any topic.....often presenting minimal evidence. I have assembled as much as I can find here....offer a theory....some start to engage and no nothing more. Is fear of where this unknown might lead preventing those who post here from responding?
We have already had LN proponents agreeing that Williams was in the SN until about 12.25. That Rowland was correct. One even concludes that it is likely that Williams saw Oswald. Seems fear of the unknown is greater that sticking to belief.
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Walt, some of the statements were DPD, some were SS, some were FBI and some were WC. I do agree that issues were caused because the various authorities had "communication" issues. The question is, do you think Williams was on the 6th floor immediately before the shots? If so, he and Norman and Jarman all lied at various times about that. Also consider if you are correct then we are wasting our time debating anything as how do we know any facts have not been altered? The facts I have presented are corroborated from documented evidence. If you are right they would have fed the story that Williams saw Oswald as the shooter and he would have agreed.....right? Does that story sound familiar.......Waldo!
But I digress. I find this supposed forum perplexing. They are many here who voice opinion on almost any topic.....often presenting minimal evidence. I have assembled as much as I can find here....offer a theory....some start to engage and no nothing more. Is fear of where this unknown might lead preventing those who post here from responding?
We have already had LN proponents agreeing that Williams was in the SN until about 12.25. That Rowland was correct. One even concludes that it is likely that Williams saw Oswald. Seems fear of the unknown is greater that sticking to belief.
We have already had LN proponents agreeing that Williams was in the SN until about 12.25. That Rowland was correct. One even concludes that it is likely that Williams saw Oswald. Seems fear of the unknown is greater that sticking to belief.
It's still only the acceptance of someones belief..... So what if a few LNers are able to extract their heads?? The fact is....The schools are still teaching our young people that Lee Harrrrrvey Ossssswald was an arch villain and he murdered our President for no reason at all.
One even concludes that it is likely that Williams saw Oswald.
I assume that you are saying that Bonnie Ray Williams saw Lee Oswald on the sixth floor shortly before the shooting.....
IMO (based on the evidence) BSing Bonnie could NOT have seen Lee there on the sixth floor after 12:10.....Because Lee was NOT there .... He was on the first floor at 12:27 when he saw Jarman and Norman walk across the first floor shipping room and climb board the west elevator......
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I do regularly make note of those members who view this thread. Interesting to see who view and do not offer any opinion. Also interesting those that did originally and now not so keen in progressing the journey.
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He is just one simple example of the communication issues.
Williams prepared an affidavit on 11/22 by 3.30pm for the DPD. In that he told of going up for lunch onto the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
The next day the FBI interviewed him and already he had to vary slightly and mention the trip. No doubt because he knew his lunch was found in the SN and it would be eventually associated with him.
However the FBI may not have seen the DPD affidavit at that stage.
Jarman is also interviewed the same day by the FBI and his statement is a considered one. It infers that Williams was with them and mentions nothing about the trip upstairs. The focus at this stage with the workers is purely on their recollections of appearances the accused assassin that morning. Who knows when these two FBI statements were compared and by whom? But at least on the Saturday Jarman's statement does not hang Williams out to dry or put himself on the 5th floor.
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He is just one simple example of the communication issues.
Williams prepared an affidavit on 11/22 by 3.30pm for the DPD. In that he told of going up for lunch onto the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
The next day the FBI interviewed him and already he had to vary slightly and mention the trip. No doubt because he knew his lunch was found in the SN and it would be eventually associated with him.
However the FBI may not have seen the DPD affidavit at that stage.
Jarman is also interviewed the same day by the FBI and his statement is a considered one. It infers that Williams was with them and mentions nothing about the trip upstairs. The focus at this stage with the workers is purely on their recollections of appearances the accused assassin that morning. Who knows when these two FBI statements were compared and by whom? But at least on the Saturday Jarman's statement does not hang Williams out to dry or put himself on the 5th floor.
You're doing a good job of eliminating the supposed Stooge conspiracy now.
Larry and Curly were focused on Saint Patsy's whereabouts the morning of 11/22 and not focused on whether Moe was with them when they went to the 5th floor.
If there ever was a Stooge conspiracy, it didn't last long, as Moe comes clean about being on the 6th floor the very next day !
I have no idea what the last sentence of your previous post means. Who does 'himself' refer to ?
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You're doing a good job of eliminating the supposed Stooge conspiracy now.
Larry and Curly were focused on Saint Patsy's whereabouts the morning of 11/22 and not focused on whether Moe was with them when they went to the 5th floor.
If there ever was a Stooge conspiracy, it didn't last long, as Moe comes clean about being on the 6th floor the very next day !
I have no idea what the last sentence of your previous post means. Who does 'himself' refer to ?
The "himself" means that Jarman was distancing himself from the 5th floor. The focus on Oswald was not by the three but at the questioning of the authorities.
Your continued use of the stooges character names, although you once obviously felt amusing and likely an ongoing attempt to disparage my efforts, is becoming rather tedious and makes serious response more difficult.
You obviously don?t seem to appreciate this is entirely my point. There had to be some initial discussion on the Friday for the three to not include the lunch trip by Williams to the 6th floor. The proof of this lies in the initial DPD statement by Williams that says they all went up together. He knows they we identified by Brennan as being on the 5th floor. He also knows the significance of the 6th floor. That is where the shots have come from and he was called to the station because he had been working there that morning. He has no idea when Jarman and Norman will be interviewed. This is the Friday.
By Saturday he realises he will be placed there because the assassin?s lunch belongs to him. He obviously has to include the trip but at a bare minumium.....a few minutes....and well before the shots....about noon.....then he joins the others. This is what he tells the FBI Saturday.
Meanwhile Jarman is interviewed on Saturday by the FBI and tells nothing of the 5th floor at all. But his story is not inconsistent with Williams initial DPD affidavit the day before. In fact he mentions nothing about the 5th floor, just that they were all together. It is lacking in detail to cover Williams. In fact that this statement is untrue as Williams was not with them as jarman claimed. Williams was not been able to communicate the change in story to Jarman yet, so Jarman went with what they agreed to, not mention the 6th, in fact he didn?t even mention the 5th!!
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The "himself" means that Jarman was distancing himself from the 5th floor.
Why on earth would Jarman want to distance himself from the 5th floor ?
WTF ?
I thought the Stooge Conspiracy was Larry and Curly helping Moe to distance himself from the 6th floor.
This gets better and better.
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Why on earth would Jarman want to distance himself from the 5th floor ?
WTF ?
I thought the Stooge Conspiracy was Larry and Curly helping Moe to distance himself from the 6th floor.
This gets better and better.
And I'd like to see Colin remember to mention everything while being given the two-fingered poke to the eyes, getting the nose twist, and being hit over the head with a shovel.
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Your continued use of the stooges character names, although you once obviously felt amusing and likely an ongoing attempt to disparage my efforts, is becoming rather tedious and makes serious response more difficult.
Tough. You're the one that chose to label them the 3 Stooges in the thread title.
Referring to the 3 Stooges as Moe, Larry and Curly is entirely appropriate and in no way makes a serious response from you more difficult.
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The "himself" means that Jarman was distancing himself from the 5th floor. The focus on Oswald was not by the three but at the questioning of the authorities.
Your continued use of the stooges character names, although you once obviously felt amusing and likely an ongoing attempt to disparage my efforts, is becoming rather tedious and makes serious response more difficult.
You obviously don?t seem to appreciate this is entirely my point. There had to be some initial discussion on the Friday for the three to not include the lunch trip by Williams to the 6th floor. The proof of this lies in the initial DPD statement by Williams that says they all went up together. He knows they we identified by Brennan as being on the 5th floor. He also knows the significance of the 6th floor. That is where the shots have come from and he was called to the station because he had been working there that morning. He has no idea when Jarman and Norman will be interviewed. This is the Friday.
By Saturday he realises he will be placed there because the assassin?s lunch belongs to him. He obviously has to include the trip but at a bare minumium.....a few minutes....and well before the shots....about noon.....then he joins the others. This is what he tells the FBI Saturday.
Meanwhile Jarman is interviewed on Saturday by the FBI and tells nothing of the 5th floor at all. But his story is not inconsistent with Williams initial DPD affidavit the day before. In fact he mentions nothing about the 5th floor, just that they were all together. It is lacking in detail to cover Williams. In fact that this statement is untrue as Williams was not with them as jarman claimed. Williams was not been able to communicate the change in story to Jarman yet, so Jarman went with what they agreed to, not mention the 6th, in fact he didn?t even mention the 5th!!
I see nothing nefarious in BRW saying he went to the fifth floor and was with Norman and Jarman there.
At 3:30 pm on Friday he probably didn't understand the significance of being precise regarding his movements and whereabouts...Thus he simply said he went to the fifth floor ( neglecting to mention the sixth floor) and that's where he was at the time the President was murdered and he was with Norman and Jarman who could corroborate his alibi.....
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I see nothing nefarious in BRW saying he went to the fifth floor and was with Norman and Jarman there.
At 3:30 pm on Friday he probably didn't understand the significance of being precise regarding his movements and whereabouts...Thus he simply said he went to the fifth floor ( neglecting to mention the sixth floor) and that's where he was at the time the President was murdered and he was with Norman and Jarman who could corroborate his alibi.....
I know you dont believe that shots were fired from the 6th floor that day. And in a sense the is no need to believe that he heard anything above. There is nothing presented that defies your belief system if you wish. He did know that the 6th floor was the "place of interest", as that was the criteria used for taking him (and Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty, Shelley) and noticing that Givens wasn?t there. This is clear from his statement. At the time it was provided three things were of interest. The 6th floor after the elevator race, Oswald and Givens. This is crystal clear in his affidavit to the DPD. He specifically indicated he went up with the others. He did not. He knew he had been in the SN about 5 minutes before the shots. You believe that don?t you?
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Why on earth would Jarman want to distance himself from the 5th floor ?
WTF ?
I thought the Stooge Conspiracy was Larry and Curly helping Moe to distance himself from the 6th floor.
This gets better and better.
You tell me why the 5th floor wasn?t mentioned by Jarman. Surely he knew his importance being a potential witness. He knew the 6th floor was the centre of attention. All he knew was that Brennan reported two of them to the cops as they exited. How did he know what had been said to authorities? This was the day after. Do you think he got access to BRW's affidavit? Williams had said they were on the 5th floor and he went up with them after the elevator race. Jarman said that the race occurred and they were all outside watching except Oswald. Do you think the FBI didn?t ask him where he was during the shooting? Do you think they were aware of Brennan stopping them? Did they see the Dillard photo at that point?
Why did he not mention the 5th floor.....you tell me.
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And I'd like to see Colin remember to mention everything while being given the two-fingered poke to the eyes, getting the nose twist, and being hit over the head with a shovel.
Thanks for your valuable contribution Bill. Keeping up with the shining wit mentality. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing and brings out unusual behaviour. How is what I posted a threat to your beliefs? The only conspiracy I propose occurred after the shooting. So far a number of people (including Howard) agreed with the possibility. In fact JohnM although originally in your camp, trying to deny any concerns initially in this thread, eventually agreed (again), to the point, that he felt that Williams saw Oswald on the 6th floor before he left.
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I see nothing nefarious in BRW saying he went to the fifth floor and was with Norman and Jarman there.
Being surrounded by cops and feds all day until these guys were probably soiling themselves...they were ready to say anything to get out of there ::)
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Who believes that by the time Williams was taken to the DPD to make his affidavit Jarman and Norman were unaware that he had been on the 6th floor prior to joining them ?
In the nearly 600 views since I posed this question no one has provided the negative. I can only assume, given the verbosity of some members of the form, that either you agree or are clueless. For most I suspect the former.....not so sure about a few though.
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Being surrounded by cops and feds all day until these guys were probably soiling themselves...they were ready to say anything to get out of there ::)
But he didn?t did he Jerry. And he was backed up by Jarman and Norman in what he initially said on day one. Coincidence? How did Jarman know not to mention Williams venture to the sixth floor? Surely they knew they were important witnesses being the closest in direct distance to the SN.
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I reckon that Williams did in fact see Oswald in the sniper's nest because why would he go up to the 6th floor to sit with his mates and just plonk himself down in the middle of the floor without checking all the windows?
When Williams went down to the 5th floor he obviously went to the windows directly below the sniper's nest, so what stopped him doing the same on the floor above?
(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/TSBD_Seconds_After_Shooting.jpg)
When confronted with the following wall of boxes, would Williams simply shout out to his friends and after not hearing an answer just move on or would he have a peek to see if his friends were there and perhaps just horsing around?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/h1ayrikgr/snipers_nest.jpg)
And from the following exchange from Williams testimony, after Ford heard Williams explain what happened on the 6th floor Ford immediately attempt to associate Williams with breaking the law, which could indicate that they thought that Williams was lying?
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
JohnM
For those who have forgotten....also we have now established that seven officers first on the scene along with Mooney all talk of lunch remnants in the SN. Williams was there when he left his lunch.
Rowland saw Williams in the SN repeatedly between 12.15 and 12.25.
And we know the "when he left" from the timestamps of Jarman and Norman?s movements. This has been corroborated by other witnesses (eg. Truly, and some claim Oswald) who saw them on their journey around the building.
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Williams started on the first day by simply excising the chicken lunch trip completely but did not alter times. He merely excluded it from events.
The elevator race he said was at 11.50am....true
He went back up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman....false
They only were together on the 5th floor a few minutes before the parade arrived....true.
If this was any case......if you left the place where shots were fired from at the time the victim was expected to arrive, would you be worried? Do you think the cops might be suspicious of your actions? Would you own up an hour or so later at the police station? You know the suspect is in custody. He?s a guy who started just a few weeks after you. Also you have two colleagues who will vouch for you at the time of the shots.
Would Howard be prepared to lie for Bill in those circumstances.....maybe then throw in Ross.....makes an appropriate trio.
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And I'd like to see Colin remember to mention everything while being given the two-fingered poke to the eyes, getting the nose twist, and being hit over the head with a shovel.
Perhaps you haven?t seen the Mirriam-Webster dictionary.....
stooge noun
\ ˈst?j \
Definition of Stooge (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : one who plays a subordinate or compliant role to a principal
More than one alternative
b : PUPPET
2 : STRAIGHT MAN
3 : STOOL PIGEON
"More than one alternative".....indeed
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Being surrounded by cops and feds all day until these guys were probably soiling themselves...they were ready to say anything to get out of there ::)
The thing is, on that first day he wasn?t surrounded and was only at the station a couple of hours. He was taken to an over run police office during a major crime to provide a statement. While there he saw a suspect apprehended, a fellow co-worker, and was questioned about another. Agree about the soiling though. I don?t believe he was told what to say that day at all.
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Why did he not mention the 5th floor.....you tell me.
No, you tell me. It's your assertion that he was distancing himself from the 5th floor.
For what possible reason ?
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No, you tell me. It's your assertion that he was distancing himself from the 5th floor.
For what possible reason ?
I told you mine. Distancing himself from events....essentially fear....at that stage the next day. Now tell me why I am wrong.....you do like meaningful discussion don?t you?
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Williams started on the first day by simply excising the chicken lunch trip completely but did not alter times. He merely excluded it from events.
The elevator race he said was at 11.50am....true
He went back up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman....false
They only were together on the 5th floor a few minutes before the parade arrived....true.
If this was any case......if you left the place where shots were fired from at the time the victim was expected to arrive, would you be worried? Do you think the cops might be suspicious of your actions? Would you own up an hour or so later at the police station? You know the suspect is in custody. He?s a guy who started just a few weeks after you. Also you have two colleagues who will vouch for you at the time of the shots.
Would Howard be prepared to lie for Bill in those circumstances.....maybe then throw in Ross.....makes an appropriate trio.
The answer is no. Larry and Curly would not be willing to lie for Moe. They might know Moe was on the 6th floor five minutes before the shots were fired. They might not. What they do know for certain is that Moe was with them when the shots were fired. If Moe asked them to lie for him they'd probably tell him to kiss their asses as they have no reason to posibly implicate themselves in any wrong doing.
Larry and Curley have ZERO reason to distance themselves from the 5th floor.
They also have no reason to lie for Moe.
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The answer is no. Larry and Curly would not be willing to lie for Moe. They might know Moe was on the 6th floor five minutes before the shots were fired. They might not. What they do know for certain is that Moe was with them when the shots were fired. If Moe asked them to lie for him they'd probably tell him to kiss their asses as they have no reason to posibly implicate themselves in any wrong doing.
Larry and Curley have ZERO reason to distance themselves from the 5th floor.
They also have no reason to lie for Moe.
You are posting with the advantage of what we know now Howard. Of course they knew he was with them. They also knew another co-worker (white) was apprehended and another missing (coloured). They knew Williams was on the sixth floor a few minutes before the shots. They repeated misled and lied about the 6th floor lunch by Williams......fact.......no kiss you ass.....they had no idea what was developing when early questioning occurred. No mention of the 5th floor on day 2 by Jarman. Mere oversight by him? You think?.....sure Howard.
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Exactly. You're making my point. Larry and Curly barely knew Moe and wouldn't endanger themselves by lying for him.
Thanks.
I love it when you disprove your own theory.
But Jarman and Norman did repeadly lie Howard, sticking with their original story until testifying. Once the Dillard photo was seen....that provided their solid alibi not before.
In any event we have been here already......numerous posters thought it possible they would try to stick together......remember "it?s possible"? If you no longer feel that no need to grace the thread any longer. I'm going to have to answer my original question with ......before Williams was taken to the DPD that afternoon.
We can add that to....Williams in the SN....and vacated the place identified as the assassin?s at the time the motorcade was due to pass and that all three lied to protect themselves.
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Just an explaining note for Howard. Once Williams named Jarman and Norman specifically in his first day statement the three would be bound in the eyes of the authorities. He named the place where they viewed from....the 5th floor under the SN. Obviously important witnesses. It was the FBI who interviewed Jarman the next day it does not seem that they were completely aware of the Williams affidavit if at all. They were mainly concentrating on Oswald and Jarman inferred that they were all downstairs after the elevator race. In fact he named Williams downstairs with him. Not forthcoming at all.......why? Once the three were bound Its best for Norman and Jarman to stick with the 5th floor story only. Williams 6th trip is a potential threat to them.
According to Howard he has a solid alibi, why the repeated deception?
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But Jarman and Norman did repeadly lie Howard, sticking with their original story until testifying. Once the Dillard photo was seen....that provided their solid alibi not before.
In any event we have been here already......numerous posters thought it possible they would try to stick together......remember "it?s possible"? If you no longer feel that no need to grace the thread any longer. I'm going to have to answer my original question with ......before Williams was taken to the DPD that afternoon.
We can add that to....Williams in the SN....and vacated the place identified as the assassin?s at the time the motorcade was due to pass and that all three lied to protect themselves.
What a crock of crap.
If you think the stooges 'protected themselves' by lying and disavowing an airtight alibi of being on the 5th floor at 12:30 PM, you're not dealing with a full deck.
Hey, if you want to maintain that the Stooges were lying in an attempt to distance themselves from the 5th floor and an airtight alibi, I can't stop you.
Have at it.
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What a crock of crap.
Sort of sums up your contribution nicely........"it?s possible" remember. If you change your mind again let us know.
I would be happy if anyone wishes to engage in debate. Maybe one of the hundred or so guests viewing right now....join up.....or members....I don?t mind.
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Once the three were bound Its best for Norman and Jarman to stick with the 5th floor story only. Williams 6th trip is a potential threat to them.
Moe's' 6th floor trip is a threat to Larry and Curly only if they agree to lie for someone they barely know.
Actually, that's not entirely true. If Larry and Curly refused to lie for Moe, he might have poked thier eyes out and given them some severe noogies.
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Sort of sums up your contribution nicely........"it?s possible" remember. If you change your mind again let us know.
I would be happy if anyone wishes to engage in debate. Maybe one of the hundred or so guests viewing right now....join up.....or members....I don?t mind.
Crock of crap sums up your stooge conspiracy nicely.
I haven't changed my mind.
I've been telling you the Stooge Conspiracy is nonsense from the get go.
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The direct lies by Norman and Jarman started in the SS interviews in the first week of December, until then it was omission. They agreed to stick with the original agreed story that Williams told on day one, he came up with them. He didn?t do that.....why lie at that stage.....or maybe they had a common group dream.
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So far, in today's latest chapter of Crow's Stooge Conspiracy we've learned that Larry wanted to distance himself from the 5th floor. :D
And we've seen Crow argue against his own theory by asking why Larry and Curly would lie for Moe since they barely knew him. :D :D
Spinning like a top.
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So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?
Guess it's possible.
But keep in mind the three stooges were not close knit friends. In fact, they barely knew each other. Wasn't there something in this thread about BRW only transferring to the depository a month earlier and not knowing one of the other stooge's first name ?
Priceless......and
yes there info about the relationships.....your just lazy to look it up even when provided..
Keep guessing....
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So far, in today's latest chapter of Crow's Stooge Conspiracy we've learned that Larry wanted to distance himself from the 5th floor. :D
And we've seen Crow argue against his own theory by asking why Larry and Curly would lie for Moe since they barely knew him. :D :D
Spinning like a top.
Williams, Jarman and Norman conspired and decided to lie immediately after the assassination.
Thanks for the summary Howard...I?m sure the readers can decide from the documents I provided for the group. They are not lazy....or forgetful like you.....and probably more humerous. Btw it doesn?t count when you laugh at your own writing...only if others do. It can be a sign of mental instability though....be careful.
Spinning indeed.
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Priceless......and
yes there info about the relationships.....your just lazy to look it up even when provided..
Keep guessing....
Took you this long to realize that what I posted 2 weeks ago was correct ?
Larry and Curly wouldn't lie for a Moe they barely knew.
What's priceless is you thinking this bolsters your case for a Stooge Conspiracy, when in fact it does the exact opposite
It's also priceless that you seem to believe Larry and Curly are somehow 'protecting themselves' by distancing themselves from the airtight alibi of being on the 5th floor at 12:30 PM.
Break out some mustard because Crow has twisted himself into a pretzel.
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Took you this long to realize that what I posted 2 weeks ago was correct ?
Larry and Curly wouldn't lie for a Moe they barely knew.
Seems you have some that disagree......take it up with them.....and yourself while your at it. This is what you and others were saying 2 weeks ago.
If I was a Black Man in the south of the U.S. in 1963 and was being questioned by White Men with badges and guns about my whereabouts before during and after the shooting, I would lie my arse off to distance myself from the 6th floor at 12:30 as much as I could.
[/quote]
Maybe BRW thinks the cops will arrest him and he'll get executed for a crime he didn't commit and he had nothing to do with. He gets together with his buddies and "hey guys, let's all say this, i didn't do anything but i was just where the shots were fired and the cops might think i did it because i was just there a few minutes ago . . . "
Thanks Steve, I think you've pretty much nailed how the Black employees in general would have felt in 1963 and specifically Williams being on the same floor as where shots were fired from, would have given him a reason to be very worried.
Shtiscared?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/gydazakbv/Depository_workersa.jpg)
JohnM
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That's reasonable. Young black dudes in Texas in 63 would be prepared to say whatever it took to avoid a beating or worse.
True, but couldn't they have made - or been forced to make - far more incriminating comments about Oswald then they did? Such as they saw him carry a large package into the building? Expressed hatred of JFK? Et cetera.
.
They lied to save BRW's skin.
So Larry and Curly were willing to lie about Moe's whereabouts before 12:25 PM and possibly endanger themselves by doing so ?
Guess it's possible.
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Seems you have some that disagree......take it up with them.....and yourself while your at it. This is what you and others were saying 2 weeks ago.
That's what was being said about Moe distancing himself from the 6th floor.
I seem to recall your recently departed BFF stating Moe was 'as good as dead' if he admitted to being on the 6th floor.
He clammed up when he was reminded that on 11/23 Moe did admit to being on the 6th floor nd not a darn thing happened to him. No death. No charges. No nothing. :D
Now, are you still claiming Larry and Curly lied for a Moe they barely knew ?
Or are you going with they wouldn't lie for a guy they barely knew ?
Make up your mind already.
Your final answer please.
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That's what was being said about Moe distancing himself from the 6th floor.
I seem to recall your recently departed BFF stating Moe was 'as good as dead' if he admitted to being on the 6th floor.
He clammed up when he was reminded that on 11/23 Moe did admit to being on the 6th floor nd not a darn thing happened to him. No death. No charges. No nothing. :D
Now, are you still claiming Larry and Curly lied for a Moe they barely knew ?
Or are you going with they wouldn't lie for a guy they barely knew ?
Make up your mind already.
Your final answer please.
They did lie. That?s a fact. They stuck with the original story Williams told. They did not vary from it until testifying. That is a fact. How did they know what Williams told the DPD that afternoon. In those first few days all they knew was Williams was up there until the due arrival time of the President, then he joined them.
It?s not just what you know Howard, it?s when you know it.
Then again as you put it.
that's because I'm just not as smart as you are.
But I am happy to let the viewers of the thread decide that for themselves.
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They did lie. That?s a fact. They stuck with the original story Williams told. They did not vary from it until testifying. That is a fact. How did they know what Williams told the DPD that afternoon. In those first few days all they knew was Williams was up there until the due arrival time of the President, then he joined them.
It?s not just what you know Howard, it?s when you know it.
Then again as you put it.
But I am happy to let the viewers of the thread decide that for themselves.
So you're going with they lied for a guy they barely knew ?
Final answer ?
BTW, the 'I'm just not as smart as you' remark was obviously a fecetious one, but if it makes you feel better to think I was being serious, I won't rain on your parade. ;D
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BTW, the 'I'm just not as smart as you' remark was obviously a fecetious one, but if it makes you feel better to think I was being serious, I won't rain on your parade. ;D
I?m happy to let the audience decide......as they should too with comedy.....enjoy the laughs you?re hearing.
Williams
Affidavit 11/22/63
We worked until about 10 minutes to 12. Then we went downstairs. We rode the elevator to the first floor and got our lunches. I went back on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior, I don?t know his last name. Just after we got to the 5th floor we saw the President coming around the corner on Houston from Main Street.
Junior Jarman
From Jarman's Affidavit 11/23/63
At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember).
FBI interview 11/24/63
No mention of the ascent to the 5th floor just that Williams and Norman were with him at the time of the motorcade.
SS interview 12/2/63
"After eating lunch Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor to watch the President pass by."
FBI interview 1/14/64
"He said that he and the other two boys (Norman and Williams) ate lunch on the first floor around 12 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade.
Harold Norman
FBI interview 11/26/63
As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.
SS interview and Affidavit 12/4/63
"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."
FBI interview 3/18/64
He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appears that he felt the shots occurred at this time.
So at no time prior to testifying before the WC did either Jarman or Norman mention the problematic 6th floor trip by Williams. When they described the ascent it was done in such a way that inferred they travelled together. A common dream of some sort according to Howard...they all remembered he was in the west elevator on the way up and didn?t remember him joining them from the east elevator after they arrived. Norman and Jarman finally awaking from this dream at the time of testifying.
Tell that one Howard.....sure to get a laugh.
Been married for more than 40 years Howard. I know where to get a decent argument.....and that relationship has other options as well as discourse. I suggest you explore them too.
PS...might have been a better analogy to use Curly as BRW. Moe and Larry were related.
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I believe the logical time for the discussion to occur between the three is sometime before Williams is taken to the DPD that afternoon.
Once it was clear the 6th floor was of interest, all it need is a relatively brief "don' say nuttin' 'bout me comin' down from up there to join you guys"........."ok Barany Ray, dont sweat"
And they didn?t until Ball and Belin figured out in March that Jarman and Norman had to change for their WC testimonies. They did, but were never seriously questioned about their previous obfuscation.
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I believe the logical time for the discussion to occur between the three is sometime before Williams is taken to the DPD that afternoon.
Once it was clear the 6th floor was of interest, all it need is a relatively brief "don' say nuttin' 'bout me comin' down from up there to join you guys"........."ok Barany Ray, dont sweat"
And they didn?t until Ball and Belin figured out in March that Jarman and Norman had to change for their WC testimonies. They did, but were never seriously questioned about their previous obfuscation.
I'd also add that they'd (IMO) be more likely to lie to the local law enforcement over any federal investigator.
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I'd also add that they'd (IMO) be more likely to lie to the local law enforcement over any federal investigator.
Interesting Steve,
The direct claims that he went with them were made by both to the SS, that was in the first week of December.
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Thanks for your valuable contribution Bill. Keeping up with the shining wit mentality. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing and brings out unusual behaviour. How is what I posted a threat to your beliefs? The only conspiracy I propose occurred after the shooting. So far a number of people (including Howard) agreed with the possibility. In fact JohnM although originally in your camp, trying to deny any concerns initially in this thread, eventually agreed (again), to the point, that he felt that Williams saw Oswald on the 6th floor before he left.
Nah, I'm just poking you in the ribs ;)
And seems to me that conspiracists are the ones afraid of the dark.
Your need for approval, reflected in your mention of (apparently) support from an LNer, is duly noted.
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It appears that somewhere around the time that the rifle was found and Fritz was informed that Oswald was "missing" by Truly, Fritz instructed Senkel to gather every employee who had been on the sixth floor that morning and have them taken to DPHQ to porovide an affidavit.
This was the reason Williams and the others left the TSBD prior to 2pm. We can see affidavits from Williams, Shelley, Arce, Lovelady and Dougherty. Givens was part of the flooring crew but was unable to get back inside the TSBD, but was eventually noticed and brought in later. Dougherty was not part of the flooring crew but had been on the 6th floor that morning and so the "roundup" was not "floor laying crew exclusive".
One other person who had spent time on the 6th floor that morning was Harold Norman.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you help them?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.
Norman did not volunteer to Stengel and the others did not mention him it seems.
Another indicator that at this early stage there might be a reluctance to admit presence on the 6th floor?
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Nah, I'm just poking you in the ribs ;)
And seems to me that conspiracists are the ones afraid of the dark.
Your need for approval, reflected in your mention of (apparently) support from an LNer, is duly noted.
Could you provide your definition of "conspiracists"? If you wish to label me I think it?s reasonable to ask for a description of your classification.
If I was here in need of approval Bill I might require something like this....
Well done Colin. You put forward an idea which seems to have teased out some agreement between opposing sides here. That certainly deserves congratulations.
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It?s very rare and admittedly pleasing reward for the effort in sourcing and posting all the docs I can find related to the proposition. However if it was my primary sustenance I fear my BMI would be in single digits. As stated previously this is how I sort through these things when I research them. I get to a point of developing a series of facts, post the docs I found to arrive at them and then seek serious rebuttal to what the evidence presents compared to the official story.
So far in the thread there has been no objection to the conclusion that Williams ate his lunch in the SN.
If this is accepted we can leave poor Arnold Rowland alone and simply accept the basics of what he saw. Briefly a white man with a scoped rifle on the 6th floor at 12.15pm at the SW corner. Also there was a coloured man (Williams) in the SN at this time, and for some time later.
There has been no objection in this thread to the timing of Williams departure from the 6th floor.....around 12.25pm. The anticipated arrival time of the motorcade in planning.
Anyone who disagrees and can provide substantial evidence to the contrary are invited to do so. I am more than willing to be persuaded....that?s why I am here....to discuss and improve understanding of what events really took place.
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So far in the thread there has been no objection to the conclusion that Williams ate his lunch in the SN.
I've already given you a thumbs up Colin but that doesn't mean that I'm won over to the theory that Williams are his lunch in the SN. I think it's more of a possibility than I did a month ago though. If I had to suggest a degree of likelihood on that possibility it would be 50-50.
Again, credit to you for the civility and sophistication you've shown in presenting your case.
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PS...might have been a better analogy to use Curly as BRW. Moe and Larry were related.
Actually, might not have been a good idea to use the 3 Stooges analogy in your thread title to begin with, but since you did, you're going to have to accept me and anyone else posting in this thread using Moe, Larry and Curly when discussing the Stooges involved in the 'conspiracy'.
I substitute Moe for BRW because Moe would had to have been the ringleader of the Stooge Conspiracy, and Moe was clearly the ringleader of the actual 3 Stooges.
BTW, as far as I know Jarman and Norman weren't brothers (Moe Fine and Larry Fine were) so your suggestion that I use BRW as Curly, is hereby rejected. 8)
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I've already given you a thumbs up Colin but that doesn't mean that I'm won over to the theory that Williams are his lunch in the SN. I think it's more of a possibility than I did a month ago though. If I had to suggest a degree of likelihood on that possibility it would be 50-50.
Again, credit to you for the civility and sophistication you've shown in presenting your case.
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Thanks for your reply Steve, appreciated. What evidence is tugging you away from Williams in the SN?
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Actually, might not have been a good idea to use the 3 Stooges analogy in your thread title to begin with, but since you did, you're going to have to accept me and anyone else posting in this thread using Moe, Larry and Curly when discussing the Stooges involved in the 'conspiracy'.
I substitute Moe for BRW because Moe would had to have been the ringleader of the Stooge Conspiracy, and Moe was clearly the ringleader of the actual 3 Stooges.
BTW, as far as I know Jarman and Norman weren't brothers (Moe Fine and Larry Fine were) so your suggestion that I use BRW as Curly, is hereby rejected. 8)
What I meant that Jarman and Norman had a closer bond, but I think you?re smart enough to know why I suggested it. We could even use hairstyles to allocate BRW to Curley. I am not convinced that BRW was the ringleader....I mearly suggested a possible conversation. Jarman was much more mature from what I?ve seen and it may have been him that suggested the 18 year old father not to say anything given the circumstances at the time.
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What I meant that Jarman and Norman had a closer bond, but I think you?re smart enough to know why I suggested it. We could even use hairstyles to allocate BRW to Curley. I am not convinced that BRW was the ringleader....I mearly suggested a possible conversation. Jarman was much more mature from what I?ve seen and it may have been him that suggested the 18 year old father not to say anything given the circumstances at the time.
You suggested that BRW's Stooge counterpart should be Curly, because Moe and Larry were related.
But your analogy is a faulty because Williams, Jarman and Norman weren't related, much less any two of them brothers.
As far as which Stooge was the ringleader of your supposed 'conspiracy', I think it's pretty obvious that Moe/BRW would be the one.
Your imaginary Stooge conversation is similar to the one I proposed about 30 pages ago, and is pretty much the only way the Stooge Conspiracy would have been hatched.
After all, it's hard to imagine Larry and Curly volunteering out of the blue to lie for Moe.
Not that I think any such conversation actually took place at any time, whether it be on the 5th floor, stairwell, or after the Stooges were downstairs.
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It appears that somewhere around the time that the rifle was found and Fritz was informed that Oswald was "missing" by Truly, Fritz instructed Senkel to gather every employee who had been on the sixth floor that morning and have them taken to DPHQ to porovide an affidavit.
This was the reason Williams and the others left the TSBD prior to 2pm. We can see affidavits from Williams, Shelley, Arce, Lovelady and Dougherty. Givens was part of the flooring crew but was unable to get back inside the TSBD, but was eventually noticed and brought in later. Dougherty was not part of the flooring crew but had been on the 6th floor that morning and so the "roundup" was not "floor laying crew exclusive".
One other person who had spent time on the 6th floor that morning was Harold Norman.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you help them?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.
Norman did not volunteer to Stengel and the others did not mention him it seems.
Another indicator that at this early stage there might be a reluctance to admit presence on the 6th floor?
It appears that somewhere around the time that the rifle was found and Fritz was informed that Oswald was "missing" by Truly, Fritz instructed Senkel to gather every employee who had been on the sixth floor that morning and have them taken to DPHQ to porovide an affidavit.
The rifle was discovered at about 1:22...... Roy Truly told Captain Fritz that Lee Oswald missing at around 1:30...
Truly had seen Lee Oswald in the lunchroom at about 12:32...... And at that time Lee was dismissed as a suspect by DPD officer Marrion Baker. So what was Roy Truly's reason for reporting Lee Oswald the only employee missing??
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You suggested that BRW's Stooge counterpart should be Curly, because Moe and Larry were related.
You said previously that Moe Fine and Larry Fine were brothers. When I checked there were three brothers who were part of the stooges over time. They performed with Larry Fine. Moe, Shemp and Curley Howard.
How ironic.
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You said previously that Moe Fine and Larry Fine were brothers. When I checked there were three brothers who were part of the stooges over time. They performed with Larry Fine. Moe, Shemp and Curley Howard.
How ironic.
Maybe Howard's grandfather. :)
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Howard has often claimed comedic talents.....farce perhaps.