Curious to see what LNers think about the missed bullet, the Tague hit, and the relationship between the two (e.g., headshot fragment resulting in Tague hit).This is a pretty big subject.
That about wraps it up. Two magic bullets.Name me a single professional ballistic expert in the world who believes that any of the three shots required a magic bullet.
I'm not personally familiar with guns, .....
.....but I was under the impression that bullets were demonstrated to become deformed when they hit bone.
One of the bullets was named a magic bullet for a bizarre trajectory emerging pristine after supposedly smashing bones and littering the wrist of the Governor with fragments that clearly did not come from the bullet exhibited. The second magic bullet hit Kennedy in the back of head and drove his head backwards??? Magic. We're in Disneyland after dark. With a stretch of the imagination you could have a third magic bullet, the one fired at the man who hated Kennedy most, Gen. Walker, by the man they say killed the object of his obsession. Wild, dude. Makes sense. All those magic bullets flying around, what with Walker being missed, evidence disappearing, theories made legend from on high, must have been the Magical Wizard of Oz. Walker just dusted his sleeves, myuh, honey he forgot to duck, back to the drawing board at Pentagon Disney.
Some people believe in God because without God they can't make sense of their existence. This is why a simple explanation works for most people. They use it like Faith. There may be good reasons to believe in God, but I see none for believing the explanation given by the Warren Commission. When men are this devious and rabid you can't make sense of them, it's like contemplating the idea of evil. Trusting them then becomes the foundation for trusting evil and the mind blanks out. It's a sad example of brilliant crime and twisted minds.
I'll help you with that one: https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what-is-a-leap-of-faith/
And yet you you declared that there were two magic bullets.
Ballistics experts have said that the bullet recovered was deformed in a way that matches with the injuries inflicted to JFK and JC.
These lazy CT assassination buffs refuse to acknowledge that FMJ ammo was designed to pass through-and-through flesh and remain intact. In fact, FMJ ammo is not recommended for home defense because of its overpenetration aspect: You might land a couple on your intruder, but also hit a family member who might be lined up 'downrange', so-to-speak (nudge nudge, wink wink).
(https://image.ibb.co/mukTfU/sedonpeep.jpg)
Some people believe in God because without God they can't make sense of their existence. This is why a simple explanation works for most people. They use it like Faith. There may be good reasons to believe in God, but I see none for believing the explanation given by the Warren Commission. When men are this devious and rabid you can't make sense of them, it's like contemplating the idea of evil. Trusting them then becomes the foundation for trusting evil and the mind blanks out. It's a sad example of brilliant crime and twisted minds.
Some people believe in God because without God they can't make sense of their existence. This is why a simple explanation works for most people. They use it like Faith. There may be good reasons to believe in God, but I see none for believing the explanation given by the Warren Commission. When men are this devious and rabid you can't make sense of them, it's like contemplating the idea of evil. Trusting them then becomes the foundation for trusting evil and the mind blanks out. It's a sad example of brilliant crime and twisted minds.
Clever.
Playing to an audience that is half-articulate with a gyrational upload of the arguments you want them to happily affect in weighing in on your cred may come over as douchbaggery to the learned but it's clever.
Idiom dictionary: Playing to a (crowd): https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/play+to+the+crowd
Half-articulate: eager student legitimately requesting clarification
(https://preview.ibb.co/kDrkc9/Gyroscope.png)
gyrational: pomposity, to box shadows, much ado
affect: adoption of stylized learning to show one's currency on the market
douchbaggery, difficult to translate, to pose as in weighty learning while backed by the truncheon or mob rule
learned: the ability to study and discern reality thereby
clever: what he did
One of the bullets was named a magic bullet for a bizarre trajectory emerging pristine after supposedly smashing bones and littering the wrist of the Governor with fragments that clearly did not come from the bullet exhibited. The second magic bullet hit Kennedy in the back of head and drove his head backwards??? Magic. We're in Disneyland after dark. With a stretch of the imagination you could have a third magic bullet, the one fired at the man who hated Kennedy most, Gen. Walker, by the man they say killed the object of his obsession. Wild, dude. Makes sense. All those magic bullets flying around, what with Walker being missed, evidence disappearing, theories made legend from on high, must have been the Magical Wizard of Oz. Walker just dusted his sleeves, myuh, honey he forgot to duck, back to the drawing board at Pentagon Disney.
Curious to see what LNers think about the missed bullet, the Tague hit, and the relationship between the two (e.g., headshot fragment resulting in Tague hit).What shooter scenario do my fellow LNers think is most likely?
For some, personal incredulity seems to be the deciding factor when it comes to this question.
Going back to the topic. A shot landing near Tague, fired by LHO would have been wildly inaccurate, marked in red in the photo. The only time frame he would have been able to fire a reasonable shot would have been late in the Z film when the limo was well past the Ft. Worth sign.Your?s is not a LN scenario. But ignoring that, how high up the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building would you think the shooter would be?
On the other hand, a line of sight from the fire escape area of the Dal-Tex to the limo (in black), is easily easily seen for the timing of all shots suspected by the readers.
(https://i.imgur.com/gjNFrin.jpg)
Going back to the topic. A shot landing near Tague, fired by LHO would have been wildly inaccurate, marked in red in the photo. The only time frame he would have been able to fire a reasonable shot would have been late in the Z film when the limo was well past the Ft. Worth sign.LNers in general don't claim the curb strike was a directly fired shot from the SN. The only exception I know of is Edward Bauer, whom I recall (though I'm not sure) proposed Oswald's first shot was a "sighting-in" shot fired there.
On the other hand, a line of sight from the fire escape area of the Dal-Tex to the limo (in black), is easily easily seen for the timing of all shots suspected by the readers.
LNers in general don't claim the curb strike was a directly fired shot from the SN. The only exception I know of is Edward Bauer, whom I recall (though I'm not sure) proposed Oswald's first shot was a "sighting-in" shot fired there.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/tague/taguefragment-z313.png)
I believe most researchers see the Tague curb strike as originating from a ricochet off the pavement (upper Elm) or a fragment from the head shot. The latter was first proposed by Josiah Thompson in his magnum opus Six Seconds in Dallas.
Your?s is not a LN scenario. But ignoring that, how high up the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building would you think the shooter would be?
Level with which floor?
He needs to be high enough to clear the follow up car with the standing Secret Service agents on the running boards.
I've got a suspected shooter on the 2nd floor, and it looks like he threaded the needle or possibly shot on the right hand side of the SS car. It used to be clear to me that 2 shooters are on the 3rd floor, but last year I was told by a photo analyst that I'm wrong. Not quite sure on that one now. Zapruder's 4th floor and above also have some windows visible in different photos.
(https://i.imgur.com/sKBvGaP.jpg)
Thanks for the info Jerry. Then why was there a need to change from the FBI 3 shot scenario to the SBT with 2 hits and 1 miss in Tagues direction? The WC seems to disagree with your theory.The Tague trajectory graphic I provided is an illustration of the claim that the curb strike originated from the head shot metal fragmentation.
Then why was there a need to change from the FBI 3 shot scenario to the SBT with 2 hits and 1 miss in Tagues direction?
The FBI initially believed (upon accepting Tague?s story) that it was a result of headshot fragmentation, and a few variations of a SBT were proposed at the autopsy. The SBT stands for a few reasons, chief them was the existence of only two bullets and the torso wounds to JFK. Despite weirdly prevalent assertions to the contrary, a ?shallow back wound? is physically impossible.Which "variation" of the SBT was proposed during the autopsy? I've never read that happened. From what I've read the autopsy doctors never considered the wounds on Connally. Why would they? Their job was to determine the cause of the injuries to JFK not Connally. Moreover, Humes said (the JAMA article, for example) they couldn't figure out where the bullet that entered the back went to. It wasn't until the next morning when he called Perry and learned that the tracheotomy covered a wound to the throat that he concluded it had exited there.
Which "variation" of the SBT was proposed during the autopsy? I've never read that. From what I've read the autopsy doctors never considered the wounds on Connally. Why would they? Their job was to determine the cause of the injuries to JFK not Connally. Moreover, Humes said (the JAMA article, for example) they couldn't figure out where the bullet that entered the back went to. It wasn't until the next morning when he called Perry and learned that the trachestomy covered a wound to the throat that they concluded it had exited there.
The FBI summary report didn't have access to the autopsy report. They relied on the Sibert and O'Neill account of the autopsy, an account which was incomplete. From that the FBI concluded two shots hit JFK and a separate shot hit Connally. No SBT at all. No missed shots. Three shots, three hits.
FBI report is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=3&tab=toc
JAMA article is here: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md22/html/Image00.htm
Why do you think those are 'shooters'?
The Tague trajectory graphic I provided is an illustration of the claim that the curb strike originated from the head shot metal fragmentation.
The WCR could not decide between the two explanations in my post.
"Even if it were caused by a bullet fragment, the mark on the
south curb of Main Street cannot be identified conclusively
with any of the three shots fired. Under the circumstances it
might have come from the bullet which hit the President's head,
or it might have been a product of the fragmentation of the
missed shot upon hitting some other object in the area."
So you now can fault them for not concluding anything about the Tague hit, just as you would fault them if they had concluded something.
With reference to your graphic, LNers generally do not contend the Tague hit was a direct-line shot from the SN window.
First, a general trend in the frames 194-206 may be noted. Beginning as early as frame 194, the President's body seems to undergo a motion forward and to the left. This motion, which can be visually approximated to be on the order of six or seven inches, seems to begin in frame 194 and continues through about frame 200. The President seems to move away from the seat back and tilt to to the left, away from the window ledge.
The FBI initially believed (upon accepting Tague?s story) that it was a result of headshot fragmentation, and a few variations of a SBT were proposed at the autopsy. The SBT stands for a few reasons, chief them was the existence of only two bullets and the torso wounds to JFK. Despite weirdly prevalent assertions to the contrary, a ?shallow back wound? is physically impossible.
Can people stop posting those giant imagesActually, these images show us a lot. They show us that CTers can see gunmen in almost any image from Dealey Plaza taken on November 22, 1963. They don?t tell us a lot about what happened. But they give us lots of insight into the minds of CTers.
You're eating up bandwidth for the sake of posting blobs of pixels that shoW SFA
Actually, these images show us a lot. They show us that CTers can see gunmen in almost any image from Dealey Plaza taken on November 22, 1963. They don?t tell us a lot about what happened. But they give us lots of insight into the minds of CTers.
I wonder if while in Kindergarten, if they could always spot Waldo immediately, but usually in the wrong place.
Same question I gave to Jerry - what happened to the 3rd bullet if Tague was injured by a fragment? And why is a shallow back wound physically impossible? To me, this is the main evidence that the MC, firing nearly 20 year old ammo, was involved at all.
Same question I gave to Jerry - what happened to the 3rd bullet if Tague was injured by a fragment? And why is a shallow back wound physically impossible? To me, this is the main evidence that the MC, firing nearly 20 year old ammo, was involved at all.1.) Who said there were three shots? What if there were only two?
1.) Who said there were three shots? What if there were only two?
First, a general trend in the frames 194-206 may be noted. Beginning as early as frame 194, the President's body seems to undergo a motion forward and to the left. This motion, which can be visually approximated to be on the order of six or seven inches, seems to begin in frame 194 and continues through about frame 200. The President seems to move away from the seat back and tilt to to the left, away from the window ledge.
| (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z194.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z200.jpg) |
| (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z193.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z198.jpg) | |
| (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z193.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z198.jpg) |
Despite weirdly prevalent assertions to the contrary, a ?shallow back wound? is physically impossible.
Which "variation" of the SBT was proposed during the autopsy? I've never read that happened. From what I've read the autopsy doctors never considered the wounds on Connally. Why would they? Their job was to determine the cause of the injuries to JFK not Connally. Moreover, Humes said (the JAMA article, for example) they couldn't figure out where the bullet that entered the back went to. It wasn't until the next morning when he called Perry and learned that the tracheotomy covered a wound to the throat that he concluded it had exited there.
Actually, these images show us a lot. They show us that CTers can see gunmen in almost any image from Dealey Plaza taken on November 22, 1963. They don?t tell us a lot about what happened. But they give us lots of insight into the minds of CTers.
I wonder if while in Kindergarten, if they could always spot Waldo immediately, but usually in the wrong place.
1.) Who said there were three shots? What if there were only two?
2.) The problems with a shallow back wound: a) Ruby shot Oswald with a snub-nose .38 special revolver. It's not a particularly penetrating projectile. Still, the bullet went from one side of Oswald to the other. A rifle bullet at any normal velocity would go at least as far. b)According to the Edgewood tests, the 6.5 Carcano bullets they tested only lost 400fps travelling completely through a simulated human neck made of meat covered with goatskin. Other experiments had determine that it takes a rifle-caliber steel ball about 150fps just to penetrate the skin. So a bullet that only burrows in an inch or so to the body is going to impact JFK travelling on the order of 200-400ft/sec. At 200ft/sec a bullet fired from 200ft away has a 1 second flight time, and will drop 1/2*(32.2ft/s/s)*1s = 16 feet. A bullet travelling at 400ft/sec will fly for 0.5sec and similarly drop 4 feet. So, to hit JFK with suck a pokey projectile, the shooter would have to be aiming for a point several feet above JFK's head, which doesn't make sense. c.) If the bullet was stopped by the spine, it would have caused severe damage to the vertebra.
a. 3 shell casings in the alleged SN, the majority of earwitnesses, the original FBI report
b. Someone planted 1 too many shells in the SN
That was the story. But Dr. Robert Livingston said he called Humes prior to the autopsy and told him about the throat wound.
1.) Who said there were three shots? What if there were only two?
2.) The problems with a shallow back wound: a) Ruby shot Oswald with a snub-nose .38 special revolver. It's not a particularly penetrating projectile. Still, the bullet went from one side of Oswald to the other. A rifle bullet at any normal velocity would go at least as far. b)According to the Edgewood tests, the 6.5 Carcano bullets they tested only lost 400fps travelling completely through a simulated human neck made of meat covered with goatskin. Other experiments had determine that it takes a rifle-caliber steel ball about 150fps just to penetrate the skin. So a bullet that only burrows in an inch or so to the body is going to impact JFK travelling on the order of 200-400ft/sec. At 200ft/sec a bullet fired from 200ft away has a 1 second flight time, and will drop 1/2*(32.2ft/s/s)*1s = 16 feet. A bullet travelling at 400ft/sec will fly for 0.5sec and similarly drop 4 feet. So, to hit JFK with suck a pokey projectile, the shooter would have to be aiming for a point several feet above JFK's head, which doesn't make sense. c.) If the bullet was stopped by the spine, it would have caused severe damage to the vertebra.
Your later solution to 1. above seems reasonable.
Regarding 2. above, thank you for the understandable examples. However, since we are working in round numbers let me modify your example. At 400ft/sec, a round will drop 2 ft in a 100 feet distance. Additionally, if it is flying at a 45 degree angle to the horizon, it should only drop 1 foot. This is the difference between a head and back shot. Do you agree?
That was the story. But Dr. Robert Livingston said he called Humes prior to the autopsy and told him about the throat wound.Robert Livingston also said that he called Humes at Bethesda between 3:30 and 4:00 that afternoon. Humes' has said that he didn't go to Bethesda until after he was called by Adm. Kenney at about 5:15. The first public mention that JFK's body was headed to the Naval hospital was at 5PM. He also remembered hearing statements from Dr Crenshaw on the radio that afternoon.
So really what you mean is that it's physically impossible for a normal 6.5 bullet fired from a Mannlicher Carcano rifle from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD and directly hitting JFK's back to have created a "shallow back wound".Not physically impossible, per se. It is possible someone could have been aiming a few feet over JFK's head when the bullet just happened to be a dud. Or maybe Oswald really was even worse of a shot than the CT's want us to believe, and the Carcano ammo is even worse than Ollie Stone would suppose. I don't think you'd hold out too much hope for a scenario like those. It would be foolish to do so. This holds true for any firearm that could reasonably considered a possible murder weapon, not just a Carcano. Gravity tries to kill us at the same rate, no matter who we are, after all.
Robert Livingston also said that he called Humes at Bethesda between 3:30 and 4:00 that afternoon. Humes' has said that he didn't go to Bethesda until after he was called by Adm. Kenney at about 5:15. The first public mention that JFK's body was headed to the Naval hospital was at 5PM. He also remembered hearing statements from Dr Crenshaw on the radio that afternoon.How would Livingston know at the time he called Humes that Humes would be the lead doctor - or one of the doctors - in the autopsy? Or even that the autopsy would be performed at Bethesda? Had that been announced on the radio/TV at that time? And I seriously doubt that Humes' name would be mentioned in any story at that time either.
David Lifton pinged a number of inconsistencies in Livingston's various statements if you want to hunt it all down.
On the interval the President's body is seen to narrow somewhat to the view, indicating that he not only leans to the Left front, but also is rotated to the left. The rotation of the shoulders begins as early as frame 195. His head comes around at 200-202. By frame 204 the President is facing almost directly forward.
| (http://i66.tinypic.com/qn71n8.jpg) | (http://i66.tinypic.com/qn71n8.jpg) |
As the President moves and rotates to the left, his right arm is pulled back into the car. While his elbow has been resting outside the car, it comes up noticeably at frame 195. The President's elbow can be seen to cross the chrome strip on the side of the car at frames As President Kennedy disappears from view behind the sign, his right arm seems to he in a particularly unusual position the clearly visible gray of his suit coat indicating that his right arm and elbow have been raised at least to the level of his chin."
| (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z195.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/_/rsrc/1399223266963/lostbullet/z200-z249/z200.jpg) |
Robert Livingston also said that he called Humes at Bethesda between 3:30 and 4:00 that afternoon. Humes' has said that he didn't go to Bethesda until after he was called by Adm. Kenney at about 5:15. The first public mention that JFK's body was headed to the Naval hospital was at 5PM. He also remembered hearing statements from Dr Crenshaw on the radio that afternoon.
David Lifton pinged a number of inconsistencies in Livingston's various statements if you want to hunt it all down.
Not physically impossible, per se.
As if there aren't inconsistencies in Humes' various statements...At least we've always been sure of Humes' involvement. Livingston is another one of those guys who suddenly pop out of nowhere, with too-good-to-be-true stories. And his was always something of a juggling act.
Thumb1:That still leaves the part about a short-shot in this case being ridiculously hard to believe, given the limits created by the situation.
At least we've always been sure of Humes' involvement. Livingston is another one of those guys who suddenly pop out of nowhere, with too-good-to-be-true stories.
You mean like Brennan, and Tatum, and Carl Day?Brennan and Day were known entities from the beginning. I think you already know my thoughts on Tatum. I'm talking about the folks who come out of the woodwork years later: Gordon Arnold, James Files, George Whitaker, Livingston, Dennis David, Judyth Baker, etc.
Brennan and Day were known entities from the beginning.
At 400fps, a bullet will traverse a 100' range in 1/4 second. It will drop 1/2 * 32 * (1/4)^2 or 1'. The acceleration due to gravity is independent the direction it's fired. At 400fps, It's still going to drop 1' from the point of aim after 100'. Or are you meaning that the 100' is 45 degrees from horizontal, too? And where behind JFK is there a possible shooter location 100' from jfk @45degrees?
Thanks for the explanation Mitch. I respect you knowledge of math and physics, but the physics just sounds counterintuitive as it often does. If somebody fires 100' parallel to Earth, it will drop 2 ft for example. But if someone fired 100' from directly above, into the Earth below, there should be zero drop. So my contention is that if it were fired at an angle of 45 degrees, it should drop 1 ft. Where did I go wrong? Don't worry about it, let me give you an exact scenario:The absolute gravitational drop is the same no matter what direction you go. Even if you shoot straight down, the bullet still accelerates due to gravity, just in the direction of aim. But you're talking about drop below the point of aim. I wasn't sure if that's what you were getting at before. Anyway, let's go for a generalized equation covering the problem. For some angle A below horizontal and a horizontal distance D, the bullet travelling at velocity V, will travel a distance of D/cos(A) over a time span of D/(V*cos(A)). So the drop should be:
JFK gets hit in the back 130' from the base of th SN (Z200) with a 400ft/sec bullet. I calculate the round flew 144'. What is its drop?
I'm curious as to the distance from the SN to the limo at frame 200. You have 130'. IIRC, the limo/SN distance has generally been held to be 195' at frame 220. The limo is rolling at about 12 mph at this point, that is a tad under 18ft/s. Frame 200 is 1.2 seconds before that, so the difference in distance should be around about 20', not 65'. Anyway, that's the back of the envelope version.Thank you Mitch, just got a years worth of math classes for free. Let me see if I can plug in the numbers for 500ft/sec later. I calculated 130' from the "distance from C" shown on the Zapruder exhibits from the WC showing 186 and 207. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0051b.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0051b.htm)