JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Susan Wilde on January 18, 2018, 02:57:41 AM
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After Dallas police patrolman Joe Marshall Smith heard the assassination volley's of shots (that he stated it seemed, at least, one shot was fired from west of the Depository, from a position level with himself, and, gave the plaza an all over sounding). He then decided to trot completely past the Texas School Book Depository he was a very closer 80' from during the assassination shots volley's, and, after he heard a woman yell, "Someone is shooting the president from the bushes!," and, then after he smelled gunsmoke near the grassy knoll when he was at a distance of over 61' below and over 200' away from and upwind-away-from the Depository, supposed, 'lone nut' snipers lair, WHO do you think was the no-suit-tie wearing, no-35-mm-camera-strapped-hanging-from-his-neck, supposed, "Secret Service" identification-flashing 'agent' that patrolman Smith suddenly encountered in the parking lot within 1 to 2 minutes behind the picket fence, North Pergola, grassy knoll?
Poll results will be available to view after you have, first, voted.
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You might want to cross out Powell off the list...
http://imgur.com/a/7W4hN
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Hi Denis, In your montage, can you describe for everyone how your #'s 1, 2, and 3 are related to Powell? Thanks in advance.
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I see that in Powell's testimony that he stated that, at all times, his "Minolta" 35mm camera was clearly visible in plain view to anyone, hanging by its camera strap around his neck.
Most likely/more than likely a 35mm camera hanging from and motions-swinging from the neck of anyone who was also claiming to be a "Secret Service Agent" is something that encountering witnesses would have also been attracted to see, and would, most definitely, recall seeing. A 35mm camera would have been especially recalled by trained law enforcement professionals, who during those especially anxious Dealey Plaza moments immediately after the shots were naturally professionally suspicious, and who witnessed a camera hanging/swinging from an "agent's" neck.
No witnesses to any of the "agents" that multiple witnesses and multiple professional law enforcement officers encountered between 12:30 PM and when Sorrels returned @ 1:00 PM have ever stated that ANY, supposed, "Secret Service Agent" displayed a 35mm camera hanging/swinging from his neck, nor has any witness ever said that the self-claiming, (fake) "Secret Service" identification-flashing grassy knoll "agent" was carrying a 35mm camera in his hands.
(there are additional, very important geographical and Smith and Powell actions timings , established, solid reasons that are also key to simply understanding why Powell could not possibly have been the (fake) "agent" that patrolman Smith encountered behind the gunsmoke smelling grassy knoll)
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Even if one of the men Denis has found is Powell, I don't see how that would rule him out.
A lot of people made for the knoll between 1 and 2 minutes after the shooting and even Murray himself couldn't resist the urge to follow them. Why not Powell?
Do you think it's possible Susan that the man came into the RRY after Smith, had the camera in his hand and was actually looking around(like a detective would) and that's when/why Smith noticed him/singled him out?
I don't see why he has to be fake, at all.
(there are additional, very important geographical and Smith and Powell actions timings , established, solid reasons that are also key to simply understanding why Powell could not possibly have been the (fake) "agent" that patrolman Smith encountered behind the gunsmoke smelling grassy knoll)
Care to elaborate?
Smith went to to the street first., not directly up the extension.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/33nyw05.png)
Any good copy of the Couch film shows the two frames above and you can watch Darnell to work out that's he's heading in this direction, has to be him. So the woman he alleged pointed him to the bushes, he has yet to meet.
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When the JFK researcher and Secret Service expert Vince Palamara interviewed the Secret Service Special Agent Lem Johns (who rode in LBJ's Secret Service follow-up vehicle and was very briefly on the DP ground between Elm Street and the North Pergola), Agent Johns emphatically stated "he definitely was not" the fake "agent" that the revolver-drawn Policeman Smith encountered after Smith smelled gunsmoke in the fake "agent" encounter location behind (north of) and close to the North Pergola and the north-south leg of the grassy knoll picket fence.
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Even if one of the men Denis has found is Powell, I don't see how that would rule him out.
A lot of people made for the knoll between 1 and 2 minutes after the shooting and even Murray himself couldn't resist the urge to follow them. Why not Powell?
Do you think it's possible Susan that the man came into the RRY after Smith, had the camera in his hand and was actually looking around(like a detective would) and that's when/why Smith noticed him/singled him out?
I don't see why he has to be fake, at all.
Care to elaborate?
Barry, where do you think Powell was located when he heard the DP shots?
Smith went to to the street first., not directly up the extension.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/33nyw05.png)
Any good copy of the Couch film shows the two frames above and you can watch Darnell to work out that's he's heading in this direction, has to be him. So the woman he alleged pointed him to the bushes, he has yet to meet.
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When the JFK researcher and Secret Service expert Vince Palamara interviewed the Secret Service Special Agent Lem Johns (who rode in LBJ's Secret Service follow-up vehicle and was very briefly on the DP ground between Elm Street and the North Pergola), Agent Johns emphatically stated "he definitely was not" the fake "agent" that the revolver-drawn Policeman Smith encountered after Smith smelled gunsmoke in the fake "agent" encounter location behind (north of) and close to the North Pergola and the north-south leg of the grassy knoll picket fence.
Based on the JFK Assassination Images, the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car was closely behind the convertible carrying LBJ. Both cars were traveling directly down the Middle of Elm St. SA Lem Johns filed an FBI Original Report dated 11/29/63. Within this Report SA Johns recalls that upon hearing 2 shots, he leaped out of the passenger side of the Follow-Up Car and "Started Running" toward the Convertible carrying LBJ. Johns then recalls hearing a 3rd shot and the JFK motorcade then speeding up leaving him Standing in the Middle of Elm St. Based on the Original Report of SS Lem Johns, we have a SS Agent attired in a suit and tie, Leaping out of a car in the Middle of Elm St, Sprinting down the Middle of Elm St, & then Left Standing Alone in the Middle of Elm St. With the exception of his fellow SS Agents, NOT 1 Single Eye Witness standing along Elm St has EVER Said, Written, or Testified that they witnessed SA Lem Johns executing ANY Portion of his self described Chinese Fire Drill. No Eyewitness standing along Elm St has EVER Said, Written, or Testified that they saw SA Lem Johns even standing anywhere on Elm St at Any point in time on 11/22/63. NO ONE. Also, there is NOT 1 single Frame from any of the various JFK Assassination Films, or 1 single JFK Assassination Photograph which displays SA Lem Johns at Any point in time, anywhere on Elm St or even anywhere inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. How does someone that is allegedly this physically active amidst the assassination of a U.S. President, somehow Evade being captured on Any assassination films or photographs???
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Additionally, Dallas patrolman Joe Marshall Smith also stated for us that during an official protective public function prior to President Kennedy's 1963 Dallas motorcade, that he had also met and worked directly with REAL Secret Service Agents, and, that he had also looked at their REAL Secret Service identifications. He knew what a REAL Secret Service identification looked like. He also stated for us that the identification that the fake grassy knoll "agent" flashed at him during his gunsmoke smelling encounter behind the grassy knoll also was REAL.
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Links to other JFK blogs....
http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com/2012/10/fake-secret-service-agents-in-dealey.html
http://jfklancer.com/knollagent/index.html
According to Lancer ...
YEARS LATER DPD OFFICER SEYMOUR WEITZMAN IDENTIFIED THE FAKE SECRET SERVICE AGENT BEHIND THE GRASSY KNOLL AS WATERGATE BURGLAR BERNARD BARKER ! ! !
Go figure
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Hi Barry, can you please be clearer for everyone than the fuzzy, zoomed-in film frames you posted, and simply arrow-point-out (or simply circle) in much clearer aftermath, zoomed-in film frames exactly which person you believe is DPD patrolman Joe Marshall Smith by-passing the much closer TSBD, while he was running towards his gun smoke smelling encounter atop the grassy knoll, behind the North Pergola with the Secret Service identification-flashing, fake "agent"?
Also, do you know how many seconds after the last shot that the 'Couch film' frames was started to be captured that reveal for us the TSBD and Houston-Elm intersection north curb witnesses?
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Thank you Jerry. I have prior read the outstanding Lancer referenced research article, and just read the lonegunmanmyth referenced research article.
Within minutes, DP witness and Dallas police sergeant David Harkness also encountered multiple "secret service"-claiming 'agents' (even though afterward, ALL of the Real Secret Service Agents were driven to, and, were located only @ Parkland Hospital) http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/180-10082-10443.jpg
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Deputy Sheriff Weitzman did an interview with researcher Michael Canfield years after the assassination. During the interview Weitzman was shown a picture of Bernard Barker and Weitzman said, "Yes, that's him."
According to Weitzman, Barker was the man who showed him SS credentials behind the fence that Patrolman Smith saw. It has been written that Barker went nowhere without E.H. Hunt being there also.
Another gem Rob thanks He certainly fits in well with the suspected gang Did he ever make a statement where he was that day?
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Let's remember that when Sitzman was interviewed by Tink Thompson for his 1966 groundbreaking "Six Seconds In Dallas", she told him that she spoke with an FBI Agent at the Top of the Knoll who Did ID himself as such.
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Let's remember that when Sitzman was interviewed by Tink Thompson for his 1966 groundbreaking "Six Seconds In Dallas", she told him that she spoke with an FBI Agent at the Top of the Knoll who Did ID himself as such.
Royell, I have "SSID" (in hardback, and, the later paperback) but do not recall reading that Sitzman said that. What is the "SSID" reference page # for her saying that?
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Royell, I have "SSID" (in hardback, and, the later paperback) but do not recall reading that Sitzman said that. What is the "SSID" reference page # for her saying that?
The interview of Sitzman conducted by Thompson for his "Six Seconds In Dallas" book was NOT published in its' Entirety in his book. Simply google, "Sitzman Thompson interview" and click on the Mcadams Link. (It is the 1st Link listed). Another revealing part of the Sitzman interview is her telling Thompson that from their Elevated position, she and Zapruder could See the JFK Limo turning onto Houston and progressing down Houston and then turning onto Elm St. Their being able to view the progression of the JFK Limo down Houston and then turning onto Elm flies in the face of the gap in the Current Zapruder Film between the DPD Cops turning the corner onto Elm and then the JFK Limo SUDDENLY Popping onto the film and already heading down Elm St. There are other Revelations in this interview which was conducted roughly 2 years following the JFK assassination. Sitzman's eyewitness recollections should have still been fresh and Not subject to outside pressure/shaping at that point in time.
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Hi Barry, can you please be clearer for everyone than the fuzzy, zoomed-in film frames you posted, and simply arrow-point-out (or simply circle) in much clearer aftermath, zoomed-in film frames exactly which person you believe is DPD patrolman Joe Marshall Smith by-passing the much closer TSBD, while he was running towards his gun smoke smelling encounter atop the grassy knoll, behind the North Pergola with the Secret Service identification-flashing, fake "agent"?
Also, do you know how many seconds after the last shot that the 'Couch film' frames was started to be captured that reveal for us the TSBD and Houston-Elm intersection north curb witnesses?
Susan, sorry I missed this... the Couch that I grabbed those frames from was the best I had available a stabilzed gif from Gerda which was focusing on something else and would never have noticed this person without it(blink and you miss him on the extreme right in the real thinghttps://youtu.be/S6l410TFK4c?t=14m47s (https://youtu.be/S6l410TFK4c?t=14m47s) but he's still there, freeze that frame )and I think I've made it quite clear already but if it helps he's on the right in both frames coming from behind the concrete pillar/monument, he's only seen in those two frames and I posted focused crops of both. I also posted a blow-up of the man and yes it's a bit blurry but I think it helps see the white cap on his head.
As for the timing well, first watch the same cop heading for his area/in this direction, his appearance from behind the pillar is mear seconds later it's all in the same unedited Couch clip.
Thirty seconds after Z313 approx is when Couch looks down the street and we see Hargis still on the north sidewalk about to cross back to his bike. So IMHO Smith came from the Houston intersection right past the TSBD and headed for Elm proper via this little walled off area, in fact I think it's obvious, The only problem is the idea that he probably had to head straight down the extension toward the knoll in order to bump into the "Agent". If and it's a big if, he's already been told by a woman where to look, that still doesn't mean he didn't head toward the street first, I think he did and I think Couch/Gerda proves it. That's all if it's Smith of course... and if you think that's him in Couch then you'll eventuallly realise that in there we see him heading for Elm and not directly toward the GK/RRY.
Fwiw I believe him too but I think instinct sent him toward Elm first, then he went toward the RRY, how long after this clip I have no idea, perhaps less than 20s later or maybe even 30. Haygood is in the same clip still on his bike, in less than 10s he will try to mount the sidewalk on either pure instinct or that radio message, despite what he said about people pointing that way, he failed of course but within 25s of Couch he will be running up the knoll toward the Underpass which sent everyone following him including the previously unmoveable Robert Jackson.
Haygood claimed that people pointed him toward the knoll too, literally "pointing that way" but there is no evidence of this anywhere, all evidence suggests he himself was the first and everyone reacted to him. I'd like to know when exactly Smith was directed toward the knoll but I'm fine with the fact that it may have came from a woman still stood on Elm.
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Susan, sorry I missed this... the Couch that I grabbed those frames from was the best I had available a stabilzed gif from Gerda which was focusing on something else and would never have noticed this person without it(blink and you miss him on the extreme right in the real thinghttps://youtu.be/S6l410TFK4c?t=14m47s (https://youtu.be/S6l410TFK4c?t=14m47s) but he's still there, freeze that frame )and I think I've made it quite clear already but if it helps he's on the right in both frames coming from behind the concrete pillar/monument, he's only seen in those two frames and I posted focused crops of both. I also posted a blow-up of the man and yes it's a bit blurry but I think it helps see the white cap on his head.
As for the timing well, first watch the same cop heading for his area/in this direction, his appearance from behind the pillar is mear seconds later it's all in the same unedited Couch clip.
Thirty seconds after Z313 approx is when Couch looks down the street and we see Hargis still on the north sidewalk about to cross back to his bike. So IMHO Smith came from the Houston intersection right past the TSBD and headed for Elm proper via this little walled off area, in fact I think it's obvious, The only problem is the idea that he probably had to head straight down the extension toward the knoll in order to bump into the "Agent". If and it's a big if, he's already been told by a woman where to look, that still doesn't mean he didn't head toward the street first, I think he did and I think Couch/Gerda proves it. That's all if it's Smith of course... and if you think that's him in Couch then you'll eventuallly realise that in there we see him heading for Elm and not directly toward the GK/RRY.
Fwiw I believe him too but I think instinct sent him toward Elm first, then he went toward the RRY, how long after this clip I have no idea, perhaps less than 20s later or maybe even 30. Haygood is in the same clip still on his bike, in less than 10s he will try to mount the sidewalk on either pure instinct or that radio message, despite what he said about people pointing that way, he failed of course but within 25s of Couch he will be running up the knoll toward the Underpass which sent everyone following him including the previously unmoveable Robert Jackson.
Haygood claimed that people pointed him toward the knoll too, literally "pointing that way" but there is no evidence of this anywhere, all evidence suggests he himself was the first and everyone reacted to him. I'd like to know when exactly Smith was directed toward the knoll but I'm fine with the fact that it may have came from a woman still stood on Elm.
If you look Closely at the route that Officer Haygood took after managing to stand his motorcycle up at the curb, he crosses the sidewalk and heads STRAIGHT UP THE KNOLL. Haygood runs Directly Toward the picket fence at the Top of the knoll. When Haygood is at a position on the Knoll that is higher than the Fort Worth sign, he Suddenly Veers to his Left and runs Diagonally up the Knoll toward the Triple Underpass. Something attracted Haygood's attention prompting him to Abruptly change his intended destination of the picket fence/parking lot. That Something diverted him to the Top of the Triple Underpass/Railyard area.
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Hi Royell,
even if he had ran straight for the fence and climbed over it, what would have been his motivation? The radio message to get up there and see what's going on is the only one I can think of because I see no one pointing that way and no evidence of anyone going in that direction before him.
Which film tells you he was heading initially for the fence? I've never noticed that.
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Hi Royell,
even if he had ran straight for the fence and climbed over it, what would have been his motivation? The radio message to get up there and see what's going on is the only one I can think of because I see no one pointing that way and no evidence of anyone going in that direction before him.
Which film tells you he was heading initially for the fence? I've never noticed that.
Good copies of the Bell Film and the Hughes Film will give you a view of the initial route UP the knoll taken by Officer Haygood. In the Hughes Film after Haygood emerges from behind the Fort Worth sign, you can even see an eyewitness in street clothes heading UP the knoll to the West/Left of The Steps. This sequence in both films was taken amidst the camera cars traveling down Elm St/East of the Triple Underpass, and is allegedly less than 1 minute following the assassination. This would be extremely early for any member of the general public to physically be on that section of the Knoll and moving UP toward the picket fence. I believe this eyewitness is a still unidentified Lone Wolf. As technology improves providing us with relatively Detailed JFK assassination films and photographs, the more it becomes obvious that many pieces to this puzzle are missing.
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I see that in Powell's testimony that he stated that, at all times, his "Minolta" 35mm camera was clearly visible in plain view to anyone, hanging by its camera strap around his neck.
Most likely/more than likely a 35mm camera hanging from and motions-swinging from the neck of anyone who was also claiming to be a "Secret Service Agent" is something that encountering witnesses would have also been attracted to see, and would, most definitely, recall seeing. A 35mm camera would have been especially recalled by trained law enforcement professionals, who during those especially anxious Dealey Plaza moments immediately after the shots were naturally professionally suspicious, and who witnessed a camera hanging/swinging from an "agent's" neck.
No witnesses to any of the "agents" that multiple witnesses and multiple professional law enforcement officers encountered between 12:30 PM and when Sorrels returned have ever stated that ANY, supposed, "Secret Service Agent" displayed a 35mm camera hanging/swinging from his neck, nor has any witness ever said that the self-claiming, "Secret Service" identification-flashing grassy knoll "agent" was carrying a 35mm camera in his hands.
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Good copies of the Bell Film and the Hughes Film will give you a view of the initial route UP the knoll taken by Officer Haygood. In the Hughes Film after Haygood emerges from behind the Fort Worth sign, you can even see an eyewitness in street clothes heading UP the knoll to the West/Left of The Steps. This sequence in both films was taken amidst the camera cars traveling down Elm St/East of the Triple Underpass, and is allegedly less than 1 minute following the assassination. This would be extremely early for any member of the general public to physically be on that section of the Knoll and moving UP toward the picket fence. I believe this eyewitness is a still unidentified Lone Wolf. As technology improves providing us with relatively Detailed JFK assassination films and photographs, the more it becomes obvious that many pieces to this puzzle are missing.
Hughes yes, thanks, I see it, a couple seconds where he's moving, it's debatable. Would be nice to see it stabilized.
There's no one else up there before Haygood at least I don't see anyone except a tree trunk and there's no evidence of anyone pointing the way for him, Curry's order to get up there could well his only motivation, that and the unusual scene he came upon, strange that he would remember it another way but a cross examination may have helped jog his memory. If Curry gave that order within about 30s IMO Haygood's brave reaction syncs rather nicely, a real shame he didn't make that jump. Shooting happens in the last seconds of 12:30pm I think, Curry's message in 12:31pm, I also think it's about a minute for Haygood to reach the corner so almost 12:32pm(that is of course if you ignore the testimony and just focus on the film etc). Within 3mins he's on the radio talking about a witness who was stood near the TSBD, has to be Jackson.
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Hughes yes, thanks, I see it, a couple seconds where he's moving, it's debatable. Would be nice to see it stabilized.
There's no one else up there before Haygood at least I don't see anyone except a tree trunk and there's no evidence of anyone pointing the way for him, Curry's order to get up there could well his only motivation, that and the unusual scene he came upon, strange that he would remember it another way but a cross examination may have helped jog his memory. If Curry gave that order within about 30s IMO Haygood's brave reaction syncs rather nicely, a real shame he didn't make that jump. Shooting happens in the last seconds of 12:30pm I think, Curry's message in 12:31pm, I also think it's about a minute for Haygood to reach the corner so almost 12:32pm(that is of course if you ignore the testimony and just focus on the film etc). Within 3mins he's on the radio talking about a witness who was stood near the TSBD, has to be Jackson.
If Officer Haygood had initially intended to run directly toward the Triple Underpass/Railroad Yard after standing his motorcycle at the curb, he would have run Diagonally toward the Fort Worth Sign. This would have kept the Fort Worth sign between him and any possible shooter(s) atop the Triple Underpass/inside the railroad yard. Instead, Haygood for whatever reason went directly from his motorcycle Straight UP the Knoll & Directly toward the picket fence.
I mention the eyewitness running Up the knoll/toward the Picket Fence at the same time that Haygood can be seen clearing the Fort Worth sign, due to this eyewitness corroborating the Statement Filed by SA Landis on 11/22/63. SA Landis was positioned on the (R) running board of the Queen Mary, and in his statement Landis said Before going under the Triple Underpass, he saw a black man in light green slacks and a beige shirt running across the Knoll in this same area.
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Another very important fact with respect to Dallas police patrolman Joe Smith smelling the distinctive smell of gun smoke right before his encounter 1 to 2 minutes after the shots ended with the fake impostor "Secret Service" credentials flashing "agent" west of the TSBD near the grassy knoll picket fence and North Pergola, is that the wind was documented by the weather service and documented in DP photos of witnesses clothes as blowing northeastward ; the wind during the shots was blowing FROM the Triple Overpass, TOWARDS the TSBD
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Another very important fact with respect to Dallas police patrolman Joe Smith smelling the distinctive smell of gun smoke right before his encounter 1 to 2 minutes after the shots ended with the fake impostor "Secret Service" credentials flashing "agent" west of the TSBD near the grassy knoll picket fence and North Pergola, is that the wind was documented by the weather service and documented in DP photos of witnesses clothes as blowing northeastward ; the wind during the shots was blowing FROM the Triple Overpass, TOWARDS the TSBD
Just for the record, what is your source for DPD Officer Joe Smith "smelling the distinctive smell of Gun Smoke"? I do Not recall a Gun Smoke claim being attributed to Smith.
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I have prior read the outstanding Lancer referenced research article, and just read the lonegunmanmyth referenced research article.
Susan,
I once wrote an essay on the Dallas Police encounters with men they identified, or who were identified to them, as being Secret Service Agents. You can read it here if you're interested:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/12084-secret-service-on-the-knoll-and-beyond/
Steve Thomas
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Just for the record, what is your source for DPD Officer Joe Smith "smelling the distinctive smell of Gun Smoke"? I do Not recall a Gun Smoke claim being attributed to Smith.
Here's one -Patrolman J M Smith, who had been standing at the corner of Elm and Houston, in front of the Book Depository Building, said in a written report to Chief Curry, 'I heard the shots and thought they were coming from the bushes [at the wooden fence adjacent to the overpass]. Ronnie Dugger, editor of THE TEXAS OBSERVER, questioned Smith, and the officer told Dugger that he had gone directly to the area behind the fence. After his own on-the-spot investigation, Dugger observed, 'A man standing behind the fence, further shielded by cars in the parking lot behind him, might have had a clear shot at the President as his car began the run downhill on Elm Street toward the underpass'. Patrolman Smith ran into the area and, as he told Dugger, he 'caught the smell of gunpowder there' behind the wooden fence: 'I could tell it was in the air'.... When Smith was called before counsel for the Warren Commission to testify, he was not asked a single question about the fact that he had smelled gunpowder behind the fence although his statement to that effect had been quoted in the Texas publication....
LBJcarYarborough
Senator Ralph Yarborough also smelled gunpowder. While he awaited news of the President's condition at Parkland Hospital, he said, 'You could smell powder on our car nearly all the way here'. Dugger observed, 'Oswald and his rifle were reportedly six stories high and perhaps 75 yards behind the President's car at the time of the shooting. Yarborough was in the third car of the motorcade, with then Vice President and Mrs Johnson. Some officials questioned here in Dallas could not explain why Senator Yarborough would smell gunpowder.... Senator Yarborough was not called by the Warren Commission as a witness, nor was he questioned by counsel. Instead, the Commission secured from him a one-page affidavit, in which no reference was made to what he had said about smelling gunpowder. [See LBJ'S ORWELLIAN JFK FACECRIME]
http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkpicketfencesmithpoliceman.shtml
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Here's one -http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkpicketfencesmithpoliceman.shtml
There is No direct source sighted for DPD Smith smelling gun smoke. There is a lotta hear-say.
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There is No direct source sighted for DPD Smith smelling gun smoke. There is a lotta hear-say.
Just for the record, what is your source for DPD Officer Joe Smith "smelling the distinctive smell of Gun Smoke"? I do Not recall a Gun Smoke claim being attributed to Smith.
The article 'attributes' the statement as requested demonstrating that the poster [Susan Wilde] did not just make up this claim. Everyone is dead now so there can not be any corroboration one way or the other.
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The article 'attributes' the statement as requested demonstrating that the poster [Susan Wilde] did not just make up this claim. Everyone is dead now so there can not be any corroboration one way or the other.
This is the type of so called documentation that is Now commonly accepted and distributed as fact by the Fake News Media. "Attributes" is Not a source. People "repeating" what they have been told is "Hearsay". This is why so many JFK Urban Legends are connected to this case and why it remains Unsolved after close to 55 years.
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This is the type of so called documentation that is Now commonly accepted and distributed as fact by the Fake News Media. "Attributes" is Not a source. People "repeating" what they have been told is "Hearsay". This is why so many JFK Urban Legends are connected to this case and why it remains Unsolved after close to 55 years.
Fake news existed in 1963. Don't kid youself. With reference to the shots, Mr Holland stated, ' ... two of them was rather close together though', and after the last shot he noticed smoke two to three metres in the air, above the road surface, under the line of trees. Another person in the crowd, electrician Frank Reilly, thought the shots came from the trees on Elm Street.
Alongside the patrolman stood two co-workers, mail clerks Royce Skelton and Austin Miller. Royce heard the first two shots as the President's car was travelling towards him. 'I thought that they were dumballs [sic] that they throw at the cement because I could see smoke coming up from the cement ...' Austin Miller believed the shot or shots ' ... sounded like it came from the, I would say from right there in the car ...' Miller also said he ' ... saw something which [he] thought was smoke or steam ...'
Railway switchman Walter Winborn was also standing on the Elm Street overpass. He saw smoke, ' ... it looked like a little haze ... but it was a haze there ... at least ten feet long and about two or three feet wide ...'
Patrolman Joe Smith also smelled gunpowder, ' ... a distinctive smell of gun smoke cordite,' as he moved along Elm Street towards the grassy section of Dealey Plaza.
Here was sworn testimony from a supervisor, several police officers and two mail clerks telling me, the reader, that smoke or gunpowder was on the street in or around the President's vehicle. Extraordinary! I delved deeper and kept reading, remembering the old adage, where there's smoke, there's fire.
[A] bookkeeper Virgie Rachley, who had been standing on Elm Street enjoying the passing parade. As the President's car rolled by and the shots rang out she recalled smelling 'gun smoke'. Clemen Johnson, a machinist at the railway yard, also witnessed the catastrophe. He saw 'white smoke' near to where the motorcade had passed. Fellow railwaymen Nolan Potter and James Simmons also witnessed the 'smoke'. Press photographer and keen hunter Tom Dillard was travelling as part of the motorcade, in the press car, an opentop Chevrolet convertible. His car followed the long convoy of press men and woman and political figures, all eager to be part of the big day. Dillard, an astute photographer who was hoping for some unique images, had taken some fine shots back at Love Field Airport, but was under pressure from his newspaper to bring back as many worthy photographs as possible. As his car approached the Texas School Book Depository he heard three shots. Jumping from his vehicle at the first shot, he ran towards the Depository building, clicking photos as he ran. His focus was the sixth-floor window, and in all he took twelve negatives. As he stood near the path of the motorcade he smelt gunpowder.
Others also told of smoke at the street level area. Ed Johnson, a reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram newspaper, ' ... saw little puffs of white smoke that seemed to hit the grassy area in the esplanade that divides Dallas' main downtown streets.' From her third-floor office window, clerk Patsy Paschall saw 'smoke' near the motorcade as it travelled down Elm Street and past the grassy knoll. Thomas Murphy, a railway foreman saw 'smoke' near the motorcade.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/jfk-the-smoking-gun-reveals-shocking-new-details-about-who-was-responsible-for-gunning-down-jfk/news-story/6c8a3ba473172faca7d91717683cf95f
The case has remained unsolved because the powers that were and are now do not want it to be. Believe what you want...your prerogative.
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Fake news existed in 1963. Don't kid youself. https://www.heraldsun.com.au/jfk-the-smoking-gun-reveals-shocking-new-details-about-who-was-responsible-for-gunning-down-jfk/news-story/6c8a3ba473172faca7d91717683cf95f
The case has remained unsolved because the powers that were and are now do not want it to be. Believe what you want...your prerogative.
I agree with you. BUT, repeating the mistakes/BS of the past will Not lead to solving this case. Stick with Corroborated FACT not hearsay or parroted "stories".
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I agree with you. BUT, repeating the mistakes/BS of the past will Not lead to solving this case. Stick with Corroborated FACT not hearsay or parroted "stories".
hearsay or parroted "stories"?.....But that ranges anywhere from 3-93% of this forum.
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hearsay or parroted "stories"?.....But that ranges anywhere from 3-93% of this forum.
Physically and Orally Repeating the same processes/mistakes that have been made over the last 54+ years is foolish.
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Physically and Orally Repeating the same processes/mistakes that have been made over the last 54+ years is foolish.
Does that include the lone gunman theory?
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Does that include the lone gunman theory?
I do Not buy into the Lone Gunman story but there are Facts supporting it. Therefore, it does merit serious discussion. What continues to be Nothing more than Conjecture and Speculation is the Echo Chamber Mantra supporting the SBT. THAT is pure BS:
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Another very important fact with respect to Dallas police patrolman Joe Smith smelling the distinctive smell of gun smoke right before his encounter 1 to 2 minutes after the shots ended with the fake impostor "Secret Service" credentials flashing "agent" west of the TSBD near the grassy knoll picket fence and North Pergola, is that the wind was documented by the weather service and documented in DP photos of witnesses clothes as blowing northeastward ; the wind during the shots was blowing FROM the Triple Overpass, TOWARDS the TSBD
Just for the record, what is your source for DPD Officer Joe Smith "smelling the distinctive smell of Gun Smoke"? I do Not recall a Gun Smoke claim being attributed to Smith.
Dallas police patrolman Joe Marshall Smith stated directly to the very respected, Pulitzer Prize finalist, Anthony Summers, that he definitely smelled gun smoke after Smith had already run completely past the Depository and was located at the back (north) side of the grassy knoll's North Pergola in Summers excellent book, "Not in Your Lifetime." (the warren commission - deliberately - never chose (nor wanted) to ask patrolman Smith about his smelling gun smoke close to the grassy knoll, against-the-wind, far away from and dozens of feet below the Depository 'snipers lair')
There are 2 very specific references to patrolman Smith smelling the gun smoke, available for everyone on pages 27 and 36. (Royell must have forgotten reading about patrolman Smith soon smelling gun smoke close to the grassy knoll, or, he has not yet read this outstanding book, that I strongly recommend for everyone)
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Dallas police patrolman Joe Marshall Smith stated directly to the very respected, Pulizer Prize finalist journalist Anthony Summers that he definitely smelled gun smoke after Smith had already run completely past the Depository and was located at the back (north) side of the grassy knoll's North Pergola in Summers excellent book, "Not in Your Lifetime." (the warren commission - deliberately - never chose (nor wanted) to ask patrolman Smith about his smelling gun smoke close to the grassy knoll, against-the-wind, far away from and dozens of feet below the Depository 'snipers lair')
There are 2 very specific references to patrolman Smith smelling the gun smoke, available for everyone on pages 27 and 36. (Royell must have forgotten reading about patrolman Smith soon smelling gun smoke close to the grassy knoll, or, he has not yet read this outstanding book, that I strongly recommend for everyone)
I have Not read the Summer's book. Why don't you post the Actual Officer Smith "gun smoke" quotes from pages 27 and 36 from that book? Thanks in advance for doing so.
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..... (the warren commission - deliberately - never chose (nor wanted) to ask patrolman Smith about his smelling gun smoke close to the grassy knoll, against-the-wind, far away from and dozens of feet below the Depository 'snipers lair')
There are 2 very specific references to patrolman Smith smelling the gun smoke, available for everyone on pages 27 and 36. (Royell must have forgotten reading about patrolman Smith soon smelling gun smoke close to the grassy knoll, or, he has not yet read this outstanding book, that I strongly recommend for everyone)[/b]
Susan, a suggestion to improve your presentation....do not make it more complicated than the record indicates.....or present a controversy where
there is no indication there is one. IOW, I don't know you, except from what you post. Is your posted opinion that the WC deprived DPD Officer Joe Smith
the opportunity to state his full case as reasonable as my well supported presentation that Smith was given every opportunity to attest to what he
smelled and did not, but then added much later that he observed/smelled gunsmoke, when his claim was REASONABLY of much less weight?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_j1.htm
.....
...Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about, that you think the Commission should know.
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_j1.htm
....Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.
Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
........
.....Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here. .....
Contract on America: The Mafia Murder of President John F. Kennedy (https://books.google.com/books?id=kvtu2CdJMl8C&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=dallas+patrolman+joe+smith&source=bl&ots=Pi94zoQk-H&sig=ACfU3U3Y-jZWnOeCc7bZExZT2CDvhw5ORg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0tMSGh_7fAhUwn-AKHbSPD1gQ6AEwA3oECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=dallas%20patrolman%20joe%20smith&f=false)
By David E. Scheim
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKWarrenDPDJoeSmithGunsmokeDavidSchein.jpg)
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There is No direct source sighted for DPD Smith smelling gun smoke. There is a lotta hear-say.
I have Not read the Summer's book. Why don't you post the Actual Officer Smith "gun smoke" quotes from pages 27 and 36 from that book? Thanks in advance for doing so.
Royell, I will go Susan, one better.... a more timely reference attributed to DPD Officer Joe Marshall Smith that he evidently could not summon
from memory during his actual WC testimony, seven months later.:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=42
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKDPDJoeSmithGunsmoke120963.jpg)
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Royell, I will go Susan, one better.... a more timely reference attributed to DPD Officer Joe Marshall Smith that he evidently could not summon
from memory during his actual WC testimony, seven months later.:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=42
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKDPDJoeSmithGunsmoke120963.jpg)
Do you really believe the above should be taken seriously when it claims, (1) Four people working for the Dallas Morning News were standing next to Zapruder when the shots were fired, and (2) Officer Smith "distinguished the aroma of gunpowder Near the Underpass", vs (3) Officer Smith "did smell what he thought was gunpowder but stated this smell was in the parking lot by the TSBD Building and NOT by the Underpass". The above is full of so many erroneous statements and contradictions that it smacks of the ever changing story told by Buell Wesley Frazier.
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Do you really believe the above should be taken seriously when it claims, (1) Four people working for the Dallas Morning News were standing next to Zapruder when the shots were fired, and (2) Officer Smith "distinguished the aroma of gunpowder Near the Underpass", vs (3) Officer Smith "did smell what he thought was gunpowder but stated this smell was in the parking lot by the TSBD Building and NOT by the Underpass". The above is full of so many erroneous statements and contradictions that it smacks of the ever changing story told by Buell Wesley Frazier.
You asked for an original source, I provided one. You shot it down and seem to be accusing (shooting) me, a mere messenger, in this instance, of gullibility.
Go get her, tiger. From the recent obit of the DMN reporter who was Barefoot Sanders' source, describing (according to
Sanders in the report I posted and you've quoted)
the nosing around of Officer Joe.: (BTW, IMO, your objections are irrelevant, as far as the crux of the matter of what Joe M. Smith TIMELY claimed he smelled.)
https://www.dallasnews.com/obituaries/obituaries/2017/04/17/mary-pillsworth-ex-dmn-editor-witnessed-kennedy-assassination-dies-77
...Pillsworth accepted an entry-level position at The News, working on the copy desk, which handled wedding announcements and the food section. She also did some feature reporting....
...."That's something that I have regretted the rest of my life because every conspiracy theorist in the world has quoted that," she said in her Sixth Floor oral history. "And I'm convinced that I did not hear it correctly."
Conspiracy investigators hounded Pillsworth for years.
"That's one reason I've laid very low for 50 years ... because it makes me sick being involved with these conspiracy theorists," she said in her oral history...
Reporter says she was among last people Kennedys waved at | News ...
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2015/11/07/reporter-says-she-was-among-last-people-kennedys-waved-at
Nov 7, 2015 - A former 'Dallas Morning News' reporter recounts the horror of witnessing ... 22, 1963, Mary Woodward Pillsworth and three friends went to Elm Street ...
...Pillsworth also wrote that the three shots had sounded as if they had come from behind her and to her right, the direction of the grassy knoll.
That statement set off conspiracy theorists and researchers. Pillsworth, who can be seen on Abraham Zapruder?s homemade film of the president?s assassination, was even called ?the first dissenting witness.?
She later said that she ?failed to take into account? a hearing disability that makes it impossible for her to tell the direction of sound and that officials told her the ?lay of the land? may have distorted the sound....
She said she agreed to be part of The Sixth Floor's Living History Series ...
Mary E. Woodward, The First Dissenting Witness
https://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Whitmey/Witness.html
Because the DMN was a morning paper, Mary's account was not circulated until ... appearing on page 3 of section 1 on the right-hand side below a large photo of .... to the simple mistake of a DALLAS MORNING NEWS reporter out for lunch with ... the knoll ? and when her friends saw the story, they rushed in to correct her.
And, on March 4, 1964 testimony of an attorney, Mark Lane, taken by the WC Counsel Rankin, under oath.:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38&relPageId=51&search=mary_woodward
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKmarkLaneWCTestimonyMaryWoodwardDMN.jpg)
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You asked for an original source, I provided one. You shot it down and seem to be accusing (shooting) me, a mere messenger, in this instance, of gullibility.
Go get her, tiger. From the recent obit of the DMN reporter who was Barefoot Sanders' source, describing (according to
Sanders in the report I posted and you've quoted)
the nosing around of Officer Joe.: (BTW, IMO, your objections are irrelevant, as far as the crux of the matter of what Joe M. Smith TIMELY claimed he smelled.)
And, on March 4, 1964 testimony of an attorney, Mark Lane, taken by the WC Counsel Rankin, under oath.:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38&relPageId=51&search=mary_woodward
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKmarkLaneWCTestimonyMaryWoodwardDMN.jpg)
You have previously shared some of your good research on this Forum. For whatever reason you are Now Posting Lane's Hearsay Testimony above. This is after you posted that piece with conflicting stories attributed to Officer Smith, in addition to it containing the bit about there being 4 reporters standing near Zapruder when the shots were fired. Why not Stop what you are currently posting, take the gear shift out of reverse and place it back into 1st gear & Progress Forward once again. Please do your name and the historical record a favor by getting back onto the right track.
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You have previously shared some of your good research on this Forum. For whatever reason you are Now Posting Lane's Hearsay Testimony above. This is after you posted that piece with conflicting stories attributed to Officer Smith, in addition to it containing the bit about there being 4 reporters standing near Zapruder when the shots were fired. Why not Stop what you are currently posting, take the gear shift out of reverse and place it back into 1st gear & Progress Forward once again. Please do your name and the historical record a favor by getting back onto the right track.
You certainly persist in shooting the messenger, an indication you have nothing meeting the standard you demanded, to rebut identical hearsay in
the WC report of Texas Atty General Sanders, in early Dec., 1963, repeated by Mark Lane in March, 1964 WC testimony.
But, what you originally insisted upon was original sourcing of the Officer Joe M. Smith gunsmoke in the air claim.
I pointed you to an FBI 302 reporting/quoting Joe M Smith's timely declaration.
If you are asserting details attributed to FBI interview subjects by FBI agents, such as FBI reported claims of Joe M Smith are also hearsay, why not make your case and also marginalize all FBI 302 reporting of witness declarations in instances in which there is no supporting witness direct testimony in the record, either before or after the FBI interview. Ironically, a major, early objection voiced to the WC by Mark Lane was the admission of hearsay into the record, contrary to criminal court procedure. Lane also complained to the WC that there was no opportunity to cross examine testifying witnesses.
Sanders:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=42
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKDPDJoeSmithGunsmoke120963crp.jpg)
Lane:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38&relPageId=51&search=mary_woodward
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKmarkLaneWCTestimonyMaryWoodwardDMNcrp.jpg)
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You certainly persist in shooting the messenger, an indication you have nothing meeting the standard you demanded, to rebut identical hearsay in
the WC report of Texas Atty General Sanders, in early Dec., 1963, repeated by Mark Lane in March, 1964 WC testimony.
But, what you originally insisted upon was original sourcing of the Officer Joe M. Smith gunsmoke in the air claim.
I pointed you to an FBI 302 reporting/quoting Joe M Smith's timely declaration.
If you are asserting details attributed to FBI interview subjects by FBI agents, such as FBI reported claims of Joe M Smith are also hearsay, why not make your case and also marginalize all FBI 302 reporting of witness declarations in instances in which there is no supporting witness direct testimony in the record, either before or after the FBI interview. Ironically, a major, early objection voiced to the WC by Mark Lane was the admission of hearsay into the record, contrary to criminal court procedure. Lane also complained to the WC that there was no opportunity to cross examine testifying witnesses.
Sanders:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=42
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKDPDJoeSmithGunsmoke120963crp.jpg)
Lane:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38&relPageId=51&search=mary_woodward
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKmarkLaneWCTestimonyMaryWoodwardDMNcrp.jpg)
Why oh why would I ever attempt to rebut Hearsay? Maybe it is just me, but I always accept Sworn Testimony vs general hearsay or 302's. Officer Smith failed to mention smelling gunpowder during his sworn testimony when given the opportunity to comment on whatever he desired. The accounts of the odor of gunpowder being far down Elm St and as far away as the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp, would indicate the gunpowder odor was following the JFK Motorcade as it advanced toward Parkland Hospital. This could possibly be due to the AR-15 inside the Queen Mary having been fired.
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Why oh why would I ever attempt to rebut Hearsay? Maybe it is just me, but I always accept Sworn Testimony vs general hearsay or 302's. Officer Smith failed to mention smelling gunpowder during his sworn testimony when given the opportunity to comment on whatever he desired. The accounts of the odor of gunpowder being far down Elm St and as far away as the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp, would indicate the gunpowder odor was following the JFK Motorcade as it advanced toward Parkland Hospital. This could possibly be due to the AR-15 inside the Queen Mary having been fired.
Do you not understand that an FBI report quoting the then Texas Atty General, later supported by the DPD patrolman described in a report
of Atty General Sanders hearsay and still later by Atty Mark Lane hearsay testimony is of approximately similar weight to any direct testimony
taken and included in the WC report that was not subjected to cross examination, (or at least offered an opportunity for cross)? Your argument amounts to: you can never successfully be contradicted in any debate here, the WC is worthless as far as the weight of FBI reports and direct testimony not afforded cross examination within its pages, and newbies such as Susan who authored this thread should not bother to post here, and neither should I?
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This is a critically important question and I'm not seeing anyone here quoting Ed Hoffman's eyewitness testimony. I don't have the time to research his descriptions of the activity he reported behind the fence and the fact that Hoffman was a deaf/mute made it very difficult to accurately communicate what he saw. But the gist of his story is that the assassin fired his shot from behind the picket fence, tossed the rifle to a man who disassembled the weapon. The assassin then straightened himself and began walking calmly toward the overpass, at which time he encountered Smith. In other words, Smith spoke to the real killer of President Kennedy immediately after the assassination and his false Secret Service credentials were legitimate enough to fool a trained police officer. Smith reported later that he felt very uneasy about this encounter since the man had dirty hands and he regretted letting him go. Here's hoping I accurately captured that encounter. Please correct where I erred...
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Do you not understand that an FBI report quoting the then Texas Atty General, later supported by the DPD patrolman described in a report
of Atty General Sanders hearsay and still later by Atty Mark Lane hearsay testimony is of approximately similar weight to any direct testimony
taken and included in the WC report that was not subjected to cross examination, (or at least offered an opportunity for cross)? Your argument amounts to: you can never successfully be contradicted in any debate here, the WC is worthless as far as the weight of FBI reports and direct testimony not afforded cross examination within its pages, and newbies such as Susan who authored this thread should not bother to post here, and neither should I?
When someone is put under Oath and faces Perjury charges if proven to have falsely testified, I absolutely put this Sworn Testimony above 302's/FBI Reports, Hearsay/Scuttlebutt. When someone has Never been placed under oath THEN I rely on 302's/FBI Reports. I have relied on FBI Reports with regard to The Hester's FBI Reports. The Hester's "FBI Reports" places them on the SOUTH Side of Elm St. Of course THESE FBI Reports deviate from the accepted norm that has been cavalierly accepted for 55+ years and has thereby been trashed by the rank-n-file around here. With your Trumpeting of FBI Reports, are YOU willing to accept as Fact the FBI Reports of Charles and Beatrice Hester?
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This is a critically important question and I'm not seeing anyone here quoting Ed Hoffman's eyewitness testimony. I don't have the time to research his descriptions of the activity he reported behind the fence and the fact that Hoffman was a deaf/mute made it very difficult to accurately communicate what he saw. But the gist of his story is that the assassin fired his shot from behind the picket fence, tossed the rifle to a man who disassembled the weapon. The assassin then straightened himself and began walking calmly toward the overpass, at which time he encountered Smith. In other words, Smith spoke to the real killer of President Kennedy immediately after the assassination and his false Secret Service credentials were legitimate enough to fool a trained police officer. Smith reported later that he felt very uneasy about this encounter since the man had dirty hands and he regretted letting him go. Here's hoping I accurately captured that encounter. Please correct where I erred...
I'm more inclined to believe Hoffman: (1) describing what he saw inside the JFK Limo/JFK Head Wound as the Limo passed beneath him on the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp vs (2) his Detailed Description of what went on behind the picket fence/Triple Underpass area. Just my opinion, but the extended distance from where Hoffman was standing to that picket fence area is just too great for the naked eye to capture all the details that Hoffman related.
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I'm more inclined to believe Hoffman: (1) describing what he saw inside the JFK Limo/JFK Head Wound as the Limo passed beneath him on the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp vs (2) his Detailed Description of what went on behind the picket fence/Triple Underpass area. Just my opinion, but the extended distance from where Hoffman was standing to that picket fence area is just too great for the naked eye to capture all the details that Hoffman related.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/FreeWayman.htm
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Royell, I will go Susan, one better.... a more timely reference attributed to DPD Officer Joe Marshall Smith that he evidently could not summon
from memory during his actual WC testimony, seven months later.:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=42
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKDPDJoeSmithGunsmoke120963.jpg)
Thank you, very much, Tom. Outstanding. I will search the Dallas Morning News articles also documented before and after 12-5-63 to read what is further also quoted/documented by the gun smoke smelling DPD Joe Marshall Smith. (or maybe a researcher has already found the documented article(s)?)
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Its amazing no one saw a gunman, apart from Hoffman.
We have a couple of hundred people looking at one spot from all directions, in broad daylight.
How many gunmen were seen? Zero.
Zapruder, Sitzman and Hudson and others. Feet away, really close. Heard nothing, saw nothing. High powered rifle firing feet away from their heads. Didn't react. Amazing.
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Its amazing no one saw a gunman, apart from Hoffman.
We have a couple of hundred people looking at one spot from all directions, in broad daylight.
How many gunmen were seen? Zero.
Zapruder, Sitzman and Hudson and others. Feet away, really close. Heard nothing, saw nothing. High powered rifle firing feet away from their heads. Didn't react. Amazing.
I agree that Zapruder and Sitzman Not hearing a shot fired in close proximity to them is Important. Just as Important is Sitzman telling Tink Thompson for his "Six Seconds In Dallas" Novel, that she saw JFK "HIT" in the side of the head, "Between the EYE and the EAR". Sitzman was Specific as to what she Witnessed from her High Ground viewing position. I believe Hudson's WC testimony is disjointed/confused.
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Its amazing no one saw a gunman, apart from Hoffman.
We have a couple of hundred people looking at one spot from all directions, in broad daylight.
How many gunmen were seen? Zero.
Zapruder, Sitzman and Hudson and others. Feet away, really close. Heard nothing, saw nothing. High powered rifle firing feet away from their heads. Didn't react. Amazing.
First, you can throw out anything from the WCR, so we have no idea how many people might have seen or heard anything. The reason Zapruder and others didn't hear anything is because that's how a turkey shoot works. They obviously heard the kill shot at frame 313, which they assumed came from the direction of the TSBD, but they didn't hear any other shots. That's because a triangulated turkey shoot, fires simultaneous shots that are intended to sound like 1.
JFK was shot at from behind until he got to the Stemmons sign with his hands to his throat. If he wasn't dead by this point, umbrella man was to signal to the snipers to take their shots at the turkey shoot point where simultaneous shots sound like 1 shot coming from a single indeterminate source. This is why Greer slowed down the limo and almost stopped it at the turkey shoot point, which was actually marked off with white paint on the curb. Then everyone heard a single shot and what they thought was an echo.
The 2 shots that struck JFK were from the knoll and the overpass, back and to the left. The knoll shot was a frangible bullet that entered JFK's right temple and nearly blew his head off. The overpass shot entered at the right side of his hairline and blew out a fist-sized hole at the back of his head. The overpass shot struck JFK ~.1 secs sooner than the knoll shot.
Overpass shot.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/TrainOverpassTurkeyShoot.jpg)
Right temple blow out.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/JFK_temple_blowout.jpg)
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First, you can throw out anything from the WCR, so we have no idea how many people might have seen or heard anything. The reason Zapruder and others didn't hear anything is because that's how a turkey shoot works. They obviously heard the kill shot at frame 313, which they assumed came from the direction of the TSBD, but they didn't hear any other shots. That's because a triangulated turkey shoot, fires simultaneous shots that are intended to sound like 1.
JFK was shot at from behind until he got to the Stemmons sign with his hands to his throat. If he wasn't dead by this point, umbrella man was to signal to the snipers to take their shots at the turkey shoot point where simultaneous shots sound like 1 shot coming from a single indeterminate source. This is why Greer slowed down the limo and almost stopped it at the turkey shoot point, which was actually marked off with white paint on the curb. Then everyone heard a single shot and what they thought was an echo.
The 2 shots that struck JFK were from the knoll and the overpass, back and to the left. The knoll shot was a frangible bullet that entered JFK's right temple and nearly blew his head off. The overpass shot entered at the right side of his hairline and blew out a fist-sized hole at the back of his head. The overpass shot struck JFK ~.1 secs sooner than the knoll shot.
Overpass shot.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/TrainOverpassTurkeyShoot.jpg)
Right temple blow out.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/JFK_temple_blowout.jpg)
You can believe what you want on the Zapruder Film regarding a possible JFK Limo STOP. The Original Nix Film was shot Facing the Grassy Knoll and would either corroborate or refute a JFK Limo STOP. The Original Nix Film somehow going MIA smells to high heaven.
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First, you can throw out anything from the WCR, so we have no idea how many people might have seen or heard anything. The reason Zapruder and others didn't hear anything is because that's how a turkey shoot works. They obviously heard the kill shot at frame 313, which they assumed came from the direction of the TSBD, but they didn't hear any other shots. That's because a triangulated turkey shoot, fires simultaneous shots that are intended to sound like 1.
JFK was shot at from behind until he got to the Stemmons sign with his hands to his throat. If he wasn't dead by this point, umbrella man was to signal to the snipers to take their shots at the turkey shoot point where simultaneous shots sound like 1 shot coming from a single indeterminate source. This is why Greer slowed down the limo and almost stopped it at the turkey shoot point, which was actually marked off with white paint on the curb. Then everyone heard a single shot and what they thought was an echo.
The 2 shots that struck JFK were from the knoll and the overpass, back and to the left. The knoll shot was a frangible bullet that entered JFK's right temple and nearly blew his head off. The overpass shot entered at the right side of his hairline and blew out a fist-sized hole at the back of his head. The overpass shot struck JFK ~.1 secs sooner than the knoll shot.
Overpass shot.
Stop with the umbrella man stuff please.
Before his head went back and to the left it moved forward as the bullet hit. Explain that please.
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Stop with the umbrella man stuff please.
Before his head went back and to the left it moved forward as the bullet hit. Explain that please.
Prove it.
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Stop with the umbrella man stuff please.
Louie Steven Witt was thought to be the umbrella man and he said that he brought the umbrella simply to heckle Kennedy, whose father, Joseph, had been a supporter of the Nazi-appeasing British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain. By waving a black umbrella, Chamberlain's trademark fashion accessory, Witt said he was protesting the Kennedy family appeasing Adolf Hitler before World War II.
So you believe his ridiculous story? Why would JFK look at Witt pumping his umbrella and have a fricken clue what he was on about? Protesting the Kennedys for appeasing Hitler in WW II with an umbrella my ass.
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Prove it.
It's been publicly known since Six Seconds in Dallas came out in the mid-60's. You can see it for yourself with publicly-available Zapruder film frames and the right software tools.
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It's been publicly known since Six Seconds in Dallas came out in the mid-60's. You can see it for yourself with publicly-available Zapruder film frames and the right software tools.
Nope, a revisited study concluded there was too much motion blur on the limo to ascertain whether the head went forward. Have another look.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the explosive forces inside JFK's head and a jet effect pushed it in the opposite direction of any blow outs. However, you don't get this jet effect from a FMJ bullet, only a frangible one. It looks like you can see the plasma jetting out of JFK's right temple and since his head is turned slightly to the left, you will get a vector component force pushing his head back and to the left.
Just look at the damage done by a frangible bullet.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/323.png)
The shot from the overpass was probably a FMJ bullet that created a small entry wound at JFK's hairline and blew out a fist-sized hole from his right occipital region. How it affected the motion of JFK's head is unknown since the explosive forces from the frangible bullet likely dominated.
If the Z film was spliced and altered it was to remove any signs of a shot from the front. That means individual frames of the back of JFK's head after frame 313 might have been touched up. It stands to reason that the autopsy photos had to remove the hole in the occipital region, as well. But those edits are easier than speeding up the limo, which involves systematically removing frames, unless you are splicing out an entire sequence of frames, such as the turn onto Elm. There are several unexplained splices on the film returned to Zapruder. So why did the FBI return an edited copy and where is the original Z film? It would tell all.
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Louie Steven Witt was thought to be the umbrella man and he said that he brought the umbrella simply to heckle Kennedy, whose father, Joseph, had been a supporter of the Nazi-appeasing British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain. By waving a black umbrella, Chamberlain's trademark fashion accessory, Witt said he was protesting the Kennedy family appeasing Adolf Hitler before World War II.
So you believe his ridiculous story? Why would JFK look at Witt pumping his umbrella and have a fricken clue what he was on about? Protesting the Kennedys for appeasing Hitler in WW II with an umbrella my ass.
Witt also said during his HSCA Testimony that he was Moving DOWN the knoll while struggling to open his umbrella as the JFK Limo passed by him. This is Not what the assassination images show. Either the alleged Umbrella Man/Witt is Wrong, or the Images are Wrong. Both can Not be correct.
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Nope, a revisited study concluded there was too much motion blur on the limo to ascertain whether the head went forward. Have another look.
Your "revisited study" is just an assertion made by a guy named David Wimp, and it's nothing more than some wishful thinking on his part. If you actually look at frames 312 and 313, you will see Kennedy's head translate forward rotationally, with a center of rotation somewhere in JFK's neck. Exactly where you'd expect it to be if JFK's head suddenly nodded forwards due to a blow from behind. If this were due to blurring --if Zapruder suddenly rotated his camera about the line of sight-- the the amount of blur would increase the further you get away from the center of rotation. Were that true, the left and right edges of the image would be a mostly-vertically streaky mess. But they aren't. The blurring in frame 313 is actually horizontal and linear, and linear blurring can't be responsible for the rotational motion of the image of JFK's head.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the explosive forces inside JFK's head and a jet effect pushed it in the opposite direction of any blow outs. However, you don't get this jet effect from a FMJ bullet, only a frangible one. It looks like you can see the plasma jetting out of JFK's right temple and since his head is turned slightly to the left, you will get a vector component force pushing his head back and to the left.
Just look at the damage done by a frangible bullet.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/323.png)
The shot from the overpass was probably a FMJ bullet that created a small entry wound at JFK's hairline and blew out a fist-sized hole from his right occipital region. How it affected the motion of JFK's head is unknown since the explosive forces from the frangible bullet likely dominated.
If the Z film was spliced and altered it was to remove any signs of a shot from the front. That means individual frames of the back of JFK's head after frame 313 might have been touched up. It stands to reason that the autopsy photos had to remove the hole in the occipital region, as well. But those edits are easier than speeding up the limo, which involves systematically removing frames, unless you are splicing out an entire sequence of frames, such as the turn onto Elm. There are several unexplained splices on the film returned to Zapruder. So why did the FBI return an edited copy and where is the original Z film? It would tell all.
That's quite a segue. Someone actually paid attention to you, so you proudly unpacked everything from your crank-box to show it off. But it's beside the point here, and most of it is a lot of baseless assertion on your part, and not worth anyone else's time. If you want to go into JFK's motion in the films, I'm in. If you're just going to assert clouds of side issues, then you'll just be wasting everyone's time, including yours.
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Your "revisited study" is just an assertion made by a guy named David Wimp, and it's nothing more than some wishful thinking on his part. If you actually look at frames 312 and 313, you will see Kennedy's head translate forward rotationally, with a center of rotation somewhere in JFK's neck. Exactly where you'd expect it to be if JFK's head suddenly nodded forwards due to a blow from behind. If this were due to blurring --if Zapruder suddenly rotated his camera about the line of sight-- the the amount of blur would increase the further you get away from the center of rotation. Were that true, the left and right edges of the image would be a mostly-vertically streaky mess. But they aren't. The blurring in frame 313 is actually horizontal and linear, and linear blurring can't be responsible for the rotational motion of the image of JFK's head.
That's quite a segue. Someone actually paid attention to you, so you proudly unpacked everything from your crank-box to show it off. But it's beside the point here, and most of it is a lot of baseless assertion on your part, and not worth anyone else's time. If you want to go into JFK's motion in the films, I'm in. If you're just going to assert clouds of side issues, then you'll just be wasting everyone's time, including yours.
Regarding your viewing, "center of rotation somewhere in JFK's neck", let's Not forget that JFK had Just been Shot in this same Neck.
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Your "revisited study" is just an assertion made by a guy named David Wimp, and it's nothing more than some wishful thinking on his part. If you actually look at frames 312 and 313, you will see Kennedy's head translate forward rotationally, with a center of rotation somewhere in JFK's neck. Exactly where you'd expect it to be if JFK's head suddenly nodded forwards due to a blow from behind. If this were due to blurring --if Zapruder suddenly rotated his camera about the line of sight-- the the amount of blur would increase the further you get away from the center of rotation. Were that true, the left and right edges of the image would be a mostly-vertically streaky mess. But they aren't. The blurring in frame 313 is actually horizontal and linear, and linear blurring can't be responsible for the rotational motion of the image of JFK's head.
This isn't rocket science. I revisited the study myself and found the film speed created too much motion blur to claim the head moves forward. Also, any detectable forward motion is minuscule if it only transpires over 2 frames @ 1/18 frames/sec and can't be attributed to anything. Besides, are you claiming that a tiny bit of forward motion negates back and to the left? All the head motion could have been caused by the frangible bullet, which did not come from behind. MCs don't fire dumdum bullets.
Go ahead and post the animated GIF of frames 312 and 313 and show us the forward head motion over .05 secs and back up your claim that only 1 shot came from behind. I will show you why you are FOS.
That's quite a segue. Someone actually paid attention to you, so you proudly unpacked everything from your crank-box to show it off. But it's beside the point here, and most of it is a lot of baseless assertion on your part, and not worth anyone else's time. If you want to go into JFK's motion in the films, I'm in. If you're just going to assert clouds of side issues, then you'll just be wasting everyone's time, including yours.
LOL. An amateur says what?
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Prove it.
(https://www.vidiars.com/jfkwatergate/headshot10frm.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/WUpfN1O.gif)
Clear as day.
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(https://www.vidiars.com/jfkwatergate/headshot10frm.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/WUpfN1O.gif)
Clear as day.
Not only has JFK just been shot in the Neck, but Jackie is also PULLING DOWNWARD on his Wrist/Arm. The clarity of these Images as technological advancements permits, bring other considerations into the discussion. The JFK Head Movement immediately after the Kill Shot is one of these issues. Jackie pulling DOWNWARD on JFK's Wrist/Arm would certainly also cause his head to move.
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This isn't rocket science. I revisited the study myself and found the film speed created too much motion blur to claim the head moves forward.
OIC. The "revisit" of "the study" is your own. So then, where do we find this study of yours, it's assumptions, it's calculations, it's results, and it's conclusions? If nothing else, it should be entertaining.
Also, any detectable forward motion is minuscule if it only transpires over 2 frames @ 1/18 frames/sec and can't be attributed to anything. Besides, are you claiming that a tiny bit of forward motion negates back and to the left?
The collision of bullet on body is completely over by the end of frame 313. All of the momentum has been transferred. All of the acceleration caused by the impact has happened. Any change in motion seen between z313 and the succeeding frames is due to some other force being applied to JFK's body. Any physicist will tell you this. JFK's head is fairly still up to frame 312, accelerates forwards between 312 and 313, the accelerates backwards in the frames just after 313. Whatever caused the backward motion, then, cannot have been caused by the bullet that created the ugly havoc seen in frame 313. Any physicist will also tell you this.
All the head motion could have been caused by the frangible bullet, which did not come from behind. MCs don't fire dumdum bullets.
"Could have been caused." Nice weasel wording at a time you really need something really concrete in order to be taken seriously.
You need to understand what a "frangible" bullet it vis-a-vis a "dumdum" bullet. The former is made from compressed powder that is weakly bonded together so that it shatters on impact. The latter is, strictly speaking, an early version of the .303 British round made at the Imperial arsenal in Dum-Dum India. It was identical to the early .303 FMJ bullets, except that the jacket was open at the tip. That is, a Dum-Dum bullet was a early soft-nosed bullet. And yes, you can get soft-nosed ammunition for the Carcano:
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/65-carcano-soft-point
You also need to explain why you think a "frangible" bullet had to have been used. Edgewood Arsenal and John Lattimer have independently demonstrated that WCC 6.5mm FMJ bullets will fragment when they hit a human head, and create nasty, explosive wounds in the process. For that matter, 5.56 NATO is (in)famous for it's tendency to fragment while passing through soft tissue, even when it doesn't hit any bone. Dr ML Fackler pointed out that the Bundeswehr's steel-jacketed 7.62x51 bullets will do the same, just bigger.
Go ahead and post the animated GIF of frames 312 and 313 and show us the forward head motion over .05 secs and back up your claim that only 1 shot came from behind. I will show you why you are FOS.
Apparently, you're too lazy to look for yourself. Someone else already put up a couple. But I can drop a couple more:
(https://www.allmystery.de/i/t140942_0fcf8f_zapruder_312-313.gif)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maryferrell.org%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F9%2F9f%2FAnim_essay_BedrockEvidence_Z308-317AnimF.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
(http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8aba2ea4b4fb.gif)
(https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-m1Jj7UQ0w0U%2FUolhSNdHzQI%2FAAAAAAAAw5Q%2FdJ6Z4NCchbA%2Fs1600%2F107.%2BZapruder%2BFilm%2B(Head%2BShot%2BSequence%2BIn%2BSlow%2BMotion).gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjfk-archives.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F06%2Fno-room-for-occam.html&docid=wmo7O3V7B2-KRM&tbnid=5Nr7pIiHp2cxnM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjc3bvJi7nnAhUPR6wKHSnsBbUQMwhSKAMwAw..i&w=532&h=189&bih=856&biw=1582&q=zapruder%20313%20gif&ved=0ahUKEwjc3bvJi7nnAhUPR6wKHSnsBbUQMwhSKAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8)
(https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fodbic.com%2Fimages%2Fz310-317.gif&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F10025853469&docid=d7hv9BGY5fntLM&tbnid=LTNw-_emrPIHnM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjc3bvJi7nnAhUPR6wKHSnsBbUQMwhaKAcwBw..i&w=539&h=471&itg=1&bih=856&biw=1582&q=zapruder%20313%20gif&ved=0ahUKEwjc3bvJi7nnAhUPR6wKHSnsBbUQMwhaKAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8)
LOL. An amateur says what?
Ameteurs say things like "plasma" and "frangible bullet"
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Not only has JFK just been shot in the Neck, but Jackie is also PULLING DOWNWARD on his Wrist/Arm. The clarity of these Images as technological advancements permits, bring other considerations into the discussion. The JFK Head Movement immediately after the Kill Shot is one of these issues. Jackie pulling DOWNWARD on JFK's Wrist/Arm would certainly also cause his head to move.
Gold star for you today Mr Storing! You've just pointed out something very important that few people, LN or CT, ever bother to consider.
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OIC. The "revisit" of "the study" is your own. So then, where do we find this study of yours, it's assumptions, it's calculations, it's results, and it's conclusions? If nothing else, it should be entertaining.
LOL. Like I said before, this isn't rocket science. I simply matched up the 2 frames of film and accounted for the camera shake. You didn't do that. You made the classic mistake of lining up the images at the leading edge of the motion blur in 313. Look at Connally's head stretch horizontally. Everything in motion in 313 is accentuated horizontally. It gives the illusion the head moves forward slightly, but not enough to rule out camera shake and not enough to claim it was a shot from behind. These are not high res still images we are looking at here. And you still haven't explained how a shot from behind (which could have been part of the turkey shoot but you can't prove it) negates the other 2 shots from the overpass and the knoll. It doesn't matter to me if there were 3 shots, but you seem to want it to be a single FMJ bullet shot by a LN with a crap rifle and a wonky scope that moved JFK's head slightly forward then violently back and to the left. I call BS.
I did my experiment 6 years ago when I stabilized the Z film to make a 3D version (you need red/cyan glasses).
From the stabilized data I plotted the vertical component of the camera shake looking for jiggles from gunshots.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/Zshake_yd-d.png)
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LOL. Like I said before, this isn't rocket science. I simply matched up the 2 frames of film and accounted for the camera shake. You didn't do that. You made the classic mistake of lining up the images at the leading edge of the motion blur in 313. Look at Connally's head stretch horizontally. Everything in motion in 313 is accentuated horizontally. It gives the illusion the head moves forward slightly, but not enough to rule out camera shake and not enough to claim it was a shot from behind. These are not high res still images we are looking at here.
I didn't actually create any of those GIF's. People have been creating animated images of the 313 shot for better than 20 years, and I decided to give you multiple samples specifically to show that it's not just one thing done by one guy one way. Only one of them appears to have been lined up at the front edges of blurs. I guess you like to jump to conclusions. In any case, your objection is just unfounded. The blurring is caused by the motion of the camera. Therefore, every point in the image is blurred the same amount, and there shouldn't no apparent relative motion between blurred objects in the image unless one of them actually is moving relative to the other.
My other point --the more important one, really-- you simply failed to address it at all. The blurring is linear; as you say, it's "accentuated horizontally." But JFK's head actually *rotates* forwards and downwards between frame 312 and 313. Linear movement of the camera will not cause that to happen. It can't be caused by the camera rotating, either. First off, everything else in the image would be seen rotating at the same angular rate, were it true. Also, the length of the blurs would increase with the radial distance from the center of rotation: objects further away from the CoR would be much more blurred than those close to it. That simply doesn't happen in frame 31I the blurring can't account for this rotation, the only alternative is that JFK's head is rotating forwards and downwards. Just as if a force was suddenly applied to the back of his head. Imagine that.
You claim to have "accounted for the camera shake" but have yet to explain how. Answering a question about a vague claim of yours with another vague claim isn't going to impress anyone.
And you still haven't explained how a shot from behind (which could have been part of the turkey shoot but you can't prove it) negates the other 2 shots from the overpass and the knoll. It doesn't matter to me if there were 3 shots, but you seem to want it to be a single FMJ bullet shot by a LN with a crap rifle and a wonky scope that moved JFK's head slightly forward then violently back and to the left. I call BS.
You have yet to demonstrate that there ever was a grassy knoll shot, not to mention a shot from the overpass. You seem to just assume them, and believe that everyone else should just follow follow along. Good luck with that.
I did my experiment 6 years ago when I stabilized the Z film to make a 3D version (you need red/cyan glasses).
From the stabilized data I plotted the vertical component of the camera shake looking for jiggles from gunshots.
(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/Zshake_yd-d.png)
That's great, at least in the sense that someone is looking at the y-axis jumps of the camera. However, abs(dY)-Ybar statement doesn't make sense. If you're looking for variance in the direction the camera is pointing, all you need is the delta Y component.
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After Dallas police patrolman Joe Marshall Smith heard the assassination volley's of shots (that he stated it seemed, at least, one shot was fired from west of the Depository, from a position level with himself, and, gave the plaza an all over sounding). He then decided to trot completely past the Texas School Book Depository he was a very closer 80' from during the assassination shots volley's, and, after he heard a woman yell, "Someone is shooting the president from the bushes!," and, then after he smelled gunsmoke near the grassy knoll when he was at a distance of over 61' below and over 200' away from and upwind-away-from the Depository, supposed, 'lone nut' snipers lair, WHO do you think was the no-suit-tie wearing, no-35-mm-camera-strapped-hanging-from-his-neck, supposed, "Secret Service" identification-flashing 'agent' that patrolman Smith suddenly encountered in the parking lot within 1 to 2 minutes behind the picket fence, North Pergola, grassy knoll?
Poll results will be available to view after you have, first, voted.
An excellent thread, OP; and, the poll results to date are rather interesting as they are telling.
While I admire & respect Mr. Storing's penchant for honouring the late Ronald Reagan's mantra relative to trust but always verify, suffice it to say there's ample evidence from multiple sources confirming the distinctive smell of gunpowder much further down Elm Street, far removed from the TSBD.
Moreover, given Ms. Wilde's telling wind direction post, she has clearly demonstrated there's only a single source where the gunpowder smell is emanating from (lower Elm Street) ---->
http://jfkact.org/?p=940
Back in here later this month to see if the current poll trend holds. A safe/happy February to all.
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Stop with the umbrella man stuff please.
The umbrella existed which can be easily seen....Stop then- with the lone gunman theory- which can't be proven.
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An excellent thread, OP; and, the poll results to date are rather interesting as they are telling.
While I admire & respect Mr. Storing's penchant for honouring the late Ronald Reagan's mantra relative to trust but always verify, suffice it to say there's ample evidence from multiple sources confirming the distinctive smell of gunpowder much further down Elm Street, far removed from the TSBD.
Moreover, given Ms. Wilde's telling wind direction post, she has clearly demonstrated there's only a single source where the gunpowder smell is emanating from (lower Elm Street) ---->
http://jfkact.org/?p=940
Back in here later this month to see if the current poll trend holds. A safe/happy February to all.
It's the reporting of a "gunpowder smell", (1) down Elm St, and (2) by the DPD Cop that was positioned on the Overpass running across the Stemmons Fwy On Ramp, which support the theory that SA Hickey discharged the AR-15 Rifle he was brandishing inside The Queen Mary. If the AR-15 was fired, that weapon would have been continuously emanating a gunpowder odor as the Queen Mary traveled down Elm St as well as the general route to Parkland Hospital.
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reporting of a "gunpowder smell"
There would be a smell of smoke. The motorcycles had been backfiring continuously because they had been running slow for a long period of time during the motorcade procession.
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There would be a smell of smoke. The motorcycles had been backfiring continuously because they had been running slow for a long period of time during the motorcade procession.
The smell of exhaust/backfires from a motorcycle/car and the smell of Gun Powder are 2 very distinctly different odors. DPD Officer Earle Brown said in his WC Testimony that he smelled "Gun Powder" from his position atop the overpass that extends across the Stemmons Fwy. That overpass is roughly 100 yards away from the Triple Underpass at the bottom of Elm St.
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The smell of exhaust/backfires from a motorcycle/car and the smell of Gun Powder are 2 very distinctly different odors. DPD Officer Earle Brown said in his WC Testimony that he smelled "Gun Powder" from his position atop the overpass that extends across the Stemmons Fwy. That overpass is roughly 100 yards away from the Triple Underpass at the bottom of Elm St.
If a patrolman was smelling smoke from that far away, that makes it more likley someone was burning something (ie rubbish) and the smell was blowing around that whole area. You'd hardly smell gunsmoke from all the way over on the Stemmons freeway.
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If a patrolman was smelling smoke from that far away, that makes it more likley someone was burning something (ie rubbish) and the smell was blowing around that whole area. You'd hardly smell gunsmoke from all the way over on the Stemmons freeway.
It depends on the location of the Source from which the smoke came from. A weapon having been discharged by someone in an open vehicle in the JFK Motorcade would explain: (1) people smelling "gun powder" down Elm St, and (2) DPD Patrolman Earle Brown smelling "gun powder" from his position standing atop the overpass stretching across the Stemmons Fwy. The JFK Motorcade traveled Directly below Earle Brown as it sped to Parkland Hospital.
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It depends on the location of the Source from which the smoke came from. A weapon having been discharged by someone in an open vehicle in the JFK Motorcade would explain: (1) people smelling "gun powder" down Elm St, and (2) DPD Patrolman Earle Brown smelling "gun powder" from his position standing atop the overpass stretching across the Stemmons Fwy. The JFK Motorcade traveled Directly below Earle Brown as it sped to Parkland Hospital.
So either someone in the motorcade fired a shot (which no one in Dealey Plaza saw) or someone was illegally burning something. Possibly a homeless person burning something trying to keep warm. There were homeless people in the vicinity - the three tramps.
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So either someone in the motorcade fired a shot (which no one in Dealey Plaza saw) or someone was illegally burning something. Possibly a homeless person burning something trying to keep warm. There were homeless people in the vicinity - the three tramps.
None of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza saw SA Lem Johns jump out of the LBJ SS Follow Up Car and run up Elm St toward the JFK Limo either. Yet Johns and the SS claim he did this. There are numerous things that Did happen that "no one in Dealey Plaza saw". Do NOT permit that to shape your opinion(s). Also, anyone that has smelled "burning trash" and the odor of "gun powder" would Ever confuse the 2. Especially a DPD Policeman/Earle Brown.
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Also, anyone that has smelled "burning trash" and the odor of "gun powder" would Ever confuse the 2. Especially a DPD Policeman/Earle Brown.
I'd imagine it'd be easy to confuse the two.