JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Dan DAlimonte on January 16, 2018, 04:21:27 PM

Title: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 16, 2018, 04:21:27 PM


1. The above two SS agents, Rybka and Lawton, were told to stand down at Love Field.

2. Since they were told to stand down they decided to go to lunch
and if they did go to lunch, they would have been escorted there by one
of the two Love Field police cars.  These cars were known as either, 139 and 139 and a half
or, 39 and 39 and a half.

3. When they arrived at a diner of some sort, the police officer who drove them there
stayed either in or near the car should a bulletin regarding the President come over the radio. 
One did and he came into the diner and all three rushed backed to the car.

4. These two agents then proceeded to assist the police to capture suspects in a station wagon
most likely at Redbird Airfield.  The arrest is supported by the following relay which takes place
on Page 32 of the Radio Traffic Transcripts, Box 14.

158 - Notify 170 I am taking persons to the downtown jail and I will be reporting
back to him at Parkland as soon as I am through.  The time roughly 1:08 pm.
The officer 158 - Debenport.

5.  The above Page was, as I stated, Page 32.
The Page which should have appeared before it should have obviously been Page 31.
Yes it does appear but it appears well before the events that took place on Page 32.

On that Page 31 you will see the following relays which support my conjectures
if you read both pages side by side or the way they should have been listed.

Page 31 .... Relay

Secret Service -- outer perimeter --  they are being brought back. (Other unit break
making the rest unintelligible.)

Ummmm ... The two - Secret Service - Agents who were told to stand down
at Love Field - the outer perimeter - taking assassins back to the greater Dallas area?

Now go further down.  Again on Page 31 before Debenport's confirmed arrest on 32.

39 - (Notice who)  Clear me with a 202 assignment in -- station wagon with Secret Service man
downtown.

Ummm ... One of the Love Field cars is going downtown with a Secret Secret man and a
station wagon is mentioned.  Downtown like maybe .. the downtown jail as stated by Debenport
with persons going to jail?

Go further down the page.

And (Ask) 139 to meet me at the entrance to Love Field   I have additional cars to route out there.

You will have to take them on because he is coming downtown with some Secret Service men.

Here again ... Notice the Love Field Car cannot assist what presumably is going to be the
motorcade group to head back to Love Field after they leave Parkland Hospital.  And, why is that?
Because he's going downtown with some Secret Service men.  And, if suspects in a station wagon
were arrested at Redbird then someone outside of the suspects would be driving the station wagon.

Btw ... the station wagon is the same one noticed by Craig and others
and to me,.anyway ....  all suspects involved in JFK's murder were captured that day.






Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 16, 2018, 05:14:33 PM


1. The above two SS agents were told to stand down at Love Field.

2. Since they were told to stand down they decided to go to lunch
and if they did go to lunch, they would have been escorted there by one
of the two Love Field police cars.  These cars were known as either, 139 and 139 and a half
or, 39 and 39 and a half.

3. When they arrived at a diner of some sort, the police officer who drove them there
stayed either in or near the car should a bulletin regarding the President come over the radio. 
One did and he came into the diner and all three rushed backed to the car.

4. These two agents then proceeded to assist the police to capture suspects in a station wagon
most likely at Redbird Airfield.  The arrest is supported by the following relay which takes place
on Page 32 of the Radio Traffic Transcripts, Box 14.

158 - Notify 170 I am taking persons to the downtown jail and I will be reporting
back to him at Parkland as soon as I am through.  The time roughly 1:08 pm.
The officer 158 - Debenport.

5.  The above Page was, as I stated, Page 32.
The Page which should have appeared before it should have obviously been Page 31.
Yes it does appear but it appears well before the events that took place on Page 32.

On that Page 31 you will see the following relays which support my conjectures
if you read both pages side by side or the way they should have been listed.

Page 31 .... Relay

Secret Service -- outer perimeter --  they are being brought back. (Other unit break
making the rest unintelligible.)

Ummmm ... The two - Secret Service - Agents who were told to stand down
at Love Field - the outer perimeter - taking assassins back to the greater Dallas area?

Now go further down.  Again on Page 31 before Debenport's confirmed arrest on 32.

39 - (Notice who)  Clear me with a 202 assignment in -- station wagon with Secret Service men
downtown.

Ummm ... One of the Love Field cars is going downtown with some Secret Secret men and a
station wagon is mentioned.  Downtown like maybe .. the downtown jail as stated be Debenport
with persons going to jail?

Go further down the page.

And (Ask) 139 to meet me at the entrance at Love Field   I have additional cars to route out there.

You will have to take them on because he is coming downtown with a Secret Service man.

Here again ... Notice the Love Field Car cannot assist what presumably is going to be the
motorcade group to head back to Love Field after they leave Parkland Hospital.  And, why is that?
Because he's going downtown with a Secret Service man.  And, if suspects in a station wagon
were arrested at Redbird then someone outside of the suspects would be driving the station wagon.

Btw ... the station wagon is the same one noticed by Craig and others
and to me .anyway .... all suspects involved in JFK's murder were captured that day.

Those agents were assigned to Love Field
Others were assigned to the motorcade route
Still others were assigned to the Trade Mart

You can find the names of which agents were assigned and where during the Texas visit.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 16, 2018, 06:08:53 PM

158 - Notify 170 I am taking persons to the downtown jail and I will be reporting
back to him at Parkland as soon as I am through. 

Dan,

Just for your own curiosity, 170 is Sergeant R. Smart. Smart was a solo motorcyclist in the Traffic Division working the 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM. shift.
He was stationed to the rear of the Presidential Limousine along with Bobby Joe Dale.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0255a.htm

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 16, 2018, 07:20:20 PM
Hey, Steve.  I don't know who 170 was or what his official title was
but I did write down the info correctly.  Please check the link Page 32,
Radio Traffic Transcripts.  The key here is still ... who were the persons
being brought to the downtown jail.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-032.gif

Also check out where Page 31 shows up ... it is between 21 and 22.
There is also a Sergeant mentioned there but he's in a car or has one.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-022.gif
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 16, 2018, 07:42:18 PM
Those agents were assigned to Love Field
Others were assigned to the motorcade route
Still others were assigned to the Trade Mart

You can find the names of which agents were assigned and where during the Texas visit.

Hey, Bill.  Thanks for responding.  As it concerns the two agents being assigned to Love Field
or not.  That has been debated from that day to this.  Lawton's gestures tells me otherwise.
If he had been assigned to stay why would he be running along side the limo?  Shouldn't an assigned
agent have been doing that?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 16, 2018, 08:12:22 PM
Hey, Steve.  I don't know who 170 was or what his official title was
but I did write down the info correctly. 

Dan,

I'm not sure how this fits, but there is a J.S. Debenport listed in the Traffic Division as a solo motorcyclist working the 4:00PM to Midnight shift. See Batchelor's Exhibit 5002:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
It's page 18 of the pdf file and page 17 of the Exhibit.

Others who worked in that same Division and shift period included Chaney, Lumpkin, Courson - who were in the motorcade. Others in that Division were Billy Hargis, B.J. Martin, Sgt. Bellah. The call sign of 158 would fit into that same group of people:
131 - B.J. Martin
136 - Hargis
151 - Chaney
152 - Lumpkin
153 - Courson

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 16, 2018, 08:49:10 PM
Dan,

P.S.

Assuming that 158 is J.S. Debenport - a solo motorcyclist, he does not seen to have been assigned to the motorcade by Perdue Lawrence.
157 - J.H. Taylor and
159 - E.D. Wafford
were both assigned to the Motor Pool Command Post at the Trade Mart
They were both solo motorcyclists in the same Traffic Division and shift time period.
see:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0255b.htm

Steve Thomas

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 16, 2018, 09:20:10 PM
Dan,

P.S.

Assuming that 158 is J.S. Debenport - a solo motorcyclist, he does not seen to have been assigned to the motorcade by Perdue Lawrence.
157 - J.H. Taylor and
159 - E.D. Wafford
were both assigned to the Motor Pool Command Post at the Trade Mart
They were both solo motorcyclists in the same Traffic Division and shift time period.
see:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0255b.htm

Steve Thomas

Hey, Steve.  158 whoever he was (and I still believe it was Debenport) had to be in a car.
How was he to bring the persons to the downtown jail?  On his shoulders?  And, 170 at Parkland
seems to be a person with some degree of authority.  I still think I'm right as far as my theory goes.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 17, 2018, 05:19:06 AM
Which SS agents were assigned to the GK? Or other areas of DP? Or at the Jefferson Branch Library?

If you have proof that anyone but the shooter knew there was to be an attempt on Kennedy that day, by all means post it.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 17, 2018, 08:32:10 AM
Which SS agents were assigned to the GK? Or other areas of DP? Or at the Jefferson Branch Library?

Rob,

I once wrote an essay on this that you can read here if you're interested:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/12084-secret-service-on-the-knoll-and-beyond/

The incidents of Dallas Policemen and Deputy Sheriffs encountering someone whom they identified, or were identified to them as being members of the U.S. Secret Service is more extensive than is commonly known. There are at least twelve accounts (if you count the identification of Jack Puterbaugh as a Secret Service agent in the pilot car by Detectives Senkel and Turner), and eighteen if you count the six policemen who say there was a Secret Service Agent present during Oswald?s first interrogation beginning at 2:20PM. One of the most astounding elements in all these cases is that aside from the mention by James Leavelle of a Chief Charles thirty five years after the fact, there is no contemporaneous account of a single policeman recording the name of the ?agent? or ?agents? he encountered that day.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Bill Brown on January 17, 2018, 08:53:24 AM


1. The above two SS agents, RyBary Kampa and Lawton, were told to stand down at Love Field.

First, what makes you state that Henry  R y b k a  was told to stand down?

Second, how could Don Lawton possibly be told to stand down (sinister last minute changing of plans) when the roster duty had Lawton remaining at Love Field with Air Force One?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 17, 2018, 09:55:02 AM
Good try, Dan.....

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_705.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanTheory_1of2.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanTheory_2of2.jpg)

Sheraton Hotel, 400 N. Olive St., downtown ......

.....Next?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 17, 2018, 12:43:31 PM
First, what makes you state that Henry Rybka was told to stand down?

Second, how could Don Lawton possibly be told to stand down (sinister last minute changing of plans) when the roster duty had Lawton remaining at Love Field with Air Force One?

Hey, Bill.  Thanks for responding.  I really don't think the SS had any hand in the Kennedy
assassination so whether they were told to stand down or not, is a moot point to me.
Viewing the vid of Lawton does suggest he seemed upset but whether or not
it was a spur of the moment thing to order him to stay back or he was reminded that he was
to stay back doesn't matter.  What does matter to me is what happened afterwards.  Did they
go to lunch somewhere other than Love Field and were they escorted there by one of the
Love Field cars.  From there did they subsequently assist the police in the capture of suspects
tied to the assassination?  If that could have happened then look back at what I presented.
It could fit.

Hope everything is going well with you. 

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 17, 2018, 04:02:17 PM
Good try, Dan.....

Sheraton Hotel, 400 N. Olive St., downtown ......

.....Next?

Tom,

Thank you for posting the link to CE 705. It helped clear things up for me a little bit.
Unit 39 says that he he in 30's station wagon and a few seconds later says, "I'm in the Sergeant's car." He goes on to say, "The other half of 39 is still at the field in the Love Field car.?

Unit 30 was Sergeant R.C. Childers. He was working the Second Platoon Northwest Area Substation.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
page 9 of that pdf file page 8 of Batchelor's Exhibit CE 5002.

Using CD 1420, here is the exchange:
CD 1420 p. 176
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11815&search=Mockingbird_Lane#relPageId=177&tab=page

39 calls in and says: ?Clear me on Code 2 assignment and 30's station wagon, the Secret Service Agents downtown. The time is given as 1:09 PM

Unit 30 is Sergeant R.C. Childers. He was working the Second Platoon Northwest Area Substation.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
page 9 of that pdf file page 8 of Batchelor's Exhibit CE 5002.

Just a few second's later, he tells Dispatch: ?I am in Sergeant's car and other half of 39 is still at the field in the Love Field car.?

At 1:50 PM 39 calls in and says, ?I am going back to the Southwest Automotive. 39 has the State Unit.? CD 1420 p. 191.
Is the State Unit, the Love Field car?


Dan,

What I think happened in those DPD Archive tape transcripts that you've been using, is that somebody somehow stuck a page from the Channel 2 transcripts into the middle of the Channel 1 transcripts.

Again, using CD 1420:

At 10:00 AM Dispatch tells Unit# 39 to stay on Channel 2
39 is Patrolman J.F. Butcher and C.W. Comer
CD 1420 p. 149
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11815&search=Mockingbird_Lane#relPageId=150&tab=page
Sergeant Childers says that he will also be on Channel 2

So. if you're reading broadcasts from Unit 39, those are Channel 2 broadcasts.
And I agree with Tom, 39 was probably taking the SS Agents to the Sheraton downtown. Wasn't the Secret Service communications center there?

Since 158 was apparently not assigned to the Presidential visit, he was probably out on another call in a different part of the City. When he said he "had a couple of prisoners", I think he meant he was escorting a car that had them in the back seat.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 17, 2018, 04:34:11 PM

Hey, Steve and Tom.  Thanks for your input but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.
First of all, there was a relay that I presented before the crash which I will supply in a minute or two.
In that relay Officer 67 (Everett) at around the 12:45 mark specifically asks the Dispatcher - Did they head south?  To which the Dispatcher states - Yes.  In later transcripts it appears as - Do you want me to head south?  To which the Dispatcher gives the same reply.  The first one implies that assassins or suspects involved may have been escaping in a vehicle and Redbird Airfield was indeed south of the greater Dallas area.   There's no way (at least to me) that could have meant anything else.  And if it was changed,
was that a simply accident or was it changed to hide something?

Also, in regards to the Sheridan?  Am I to believe that a cop would ask for a specific clearance
so the SS Agents can go pick up their dirty underwear?  And again, who were these persons or prisoner
who were being brought to the downtown jail on the very day the largest manhunt of all time was taking place?  Btw .. here is the link which states the Sheridan as it appears in Box 14.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-034.gif

Notice the question mark?

Here's 67 calls

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-025.gif

 

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 17, 2018, 08:44:57 PM

1. The above two SS agents, Rybka and Lawton, were told to stand down at Love Field.

2. Since they were told to stand down they decided to go to lunch
and if they did go to lunch, they would have been escorted there by one
of the two Love Field police cars.  These cars were known as either, 139 and 139 and a half
or, 39 and 39 and a half.

3. When they arrived at a diner of some sort, the police officer who drove them there
stayed either in or near the car should a bulletin regarding the President come over the radio. 
One did and he came into the diner and all three rushed backed to the car.

4. These two agents then proceeded to assist the police to capture suspects in a station wagon
most likely at Redbird Airfield.  The arrest is supported by the following relay which takes place
on Page 32 of the Radio Traffic Transcripts, Box 14.

158 - Notify 170 I am taking persons to the downtown jail and I will be reporting
back to him at Parkland as soon as I am through.  The time roughly 1:08 pm.
The officer 158 - Debenport.

5.  The above Page was, as I stated, Page 32.
The Page which should have appeared before it should have obviously been Page 31.
Yes it does appear but it appears well before the events that took place on Page 32.

On that Page 31 you will see the following relays which support my conjectures
if you read both pages side by side or the way they should have been listed.

Page 31 .... Relay

Secret Service -- outer perimeter --  they are being brought back. (Other unit break
making the rest unintelligible.)

Ummmm ... The two - Secret Service - Agents who were told to stand down
at Love Field - the outer perimeter - taking assassins back to the greater Dallas area?

Now go further down.  Again on Page 31 before Debenport's confirmed arrest on 32.

39 - (Notice who)  Clear me with a 202 assignment in -- station wagon with Secret Service man
downtown.

Ummm ... One of the Love Field cars is going downtown with a Secret Secret man and a
station wagon is mentioned.  Downtown like maybe .. the downtown jail as stated by Debenport
with persons going to jail?

Go further down the page.

And (Ask) 139 to meet me at the entrance to Love Field   I have additional cars to route out there.

You will have to take them on because he is coming downtown with some Secret Service men.

Here again ... Notice the Love Field Car cannot assist what presumably is going to be the
motorcade group to head back to Love Field after they leave Parkland Hospital.  And, why is that?
Because he's going downtown with some Secret Service men.  And, if suspects in a station wagon
were arrested at Redbird then someone outside of the suspects would be driving the station wagon.

Btw ... the station wagon is the same one noticed by Craig and others
and to me,.anyway ....  all suspects involved in JFK's murder were captured that day.

Dan: Is it your theory that the assassins of JFK were captured trying to leave at Redbird Airport and then were summarily executed? No trial, no investigation? The SS and others (FBI? DPD?) captured these individuals, concluded they were the assassins of JFK (how did they do that?) and then just shot them?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 17, 2018, 08:51:48 PM
Hey, Steve (Thomas.)  As you well know this case is confusing enough as it is but I have some
questions with what you and Tom posted. 

1.  The two SS agents went to lunch and it's understandable to me that they would have
went by a Love Field car.

2.  After they heard about the assassination and if they didn't assist the police make
any arrests then they most likely went back to Love Field.

3.  It then occurs to these two agents that they have to go to the Sherirdan, the SS command
post for some reason and 30's station wagon suddenly appears (either marked or unmarked).

4.  If that happened, why would one of the Love Field cars have to go with them?
If you look at the transcripts 39 definitely ended up being there.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 17, 2018, 08:53:13 PM
Hey, Steve and Tom.  Thanks for your input but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.
First of all, there was a relay that I presented before the crash which I will supply in a minute or two.
In that relay Officer 67 (Everett) at around the 12:45 mark specifically asks the Dispatcher - Did they head south?  To which the Dispatcher states - Yes.  In later transcripts it appears as - Do you want me to head south?  To which the Dispatcher gives the same reply.

Dan,

As you know, Unit 67 is  Patrolman W. A. Everett

If you look at

CD 1420 p. 171
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11815&search=Mockingbird_Lane#relPageId=172&tab=page


Unit 267 (Patrolman J.H. Caldwell)  asks, ?Do you want me to head south??
Dispatcher answers, ?Yes. 12:44 PM?
This is Channel 2 broadcast.

If you scroll back for the previous two pages or so in that Channel 2 transcript, it looks like the police were trying to cordon of a one to two block area around the TSBD. Without knowing where Everett and Caldwell were stationed, it's hard to know if they were talking about responding to Elm and Houston, or if they were talking about that two block cordon.


I owe you an apology of sorts.

See CD 1420 p. 162 Channel 2 transcript
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11815&search=Mockingbird_Lane#relPageId=163&tab=page

In this transcript, 158 is identified as Patrolman L.S. Davenport at 12:26 PM. He advises Dispatch that everything is OK. Dispatch tells Chief Curry that 158 says everything is OK. The motorcade had just passed Live Oak and was about to cross Lamar. I believe that they were on Harwood at this time.

In my notes, 158 was identified as L.S. Davenport and J.M. Phillips.

J.M. Phillips is listed as operating a radar unit in the Traffic Division Solo Motorcycle and Special Enforcement Monthly Detail
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
page 18. He is in that same group of people as Billy Hargis, B.J. Martin, Marrion Baker, and J.S. Debenport, etc., but he's not listed as a solo motorcyclist, but operating a radar unit. He's in the same group as Debenport, although regularly on different shifts.

I don't find L.S. Davenport listed in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002, nor is any Davenport or Phillips listed in Purdue Lawrence's assignments for the parade route.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0256b.htm

Could J.S Debenport and J.M. Philiips be sharing the same call sign 158? Could J.S, Debenport have been mistakenly transcribed as L.S. Davenport in the transcripts?


(There is an R.S. Davenport listed as a School Safety Officer in the Batchelor Exhibit 5002 p. 17.)
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

Could R.S. Davenport been mistakenly listed as L.S. Davenport in the Channel 2 transcripts?

This is all very confusing. My best guess is that J.S. Debenport was mistakenly transcribed as L.S. Davenport. My main problem at the moment is that neither one was scheduled for traffic control for the motorcade per Purdue Lawrence assignments, so how could 158 be radioing in that everything was OK as the motorcade was traveling down Harwood and Live Oak and Harwood and Lamar?

Steve Thomas


Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 17, 2018, 08:56:35 PM
Hey, Steve (Thomas.)
4.  If that happened, why would one of the Love Field cars have to go with them?
If you look at the transcripts 39 definitely ended up being there.

Dan,

They were from out of town. They were on foot.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 17, 2018, 09:13:18 PM
Dan: Is it your theory that the assassins of JFK were captured trying to leave at Redbird Airport and then were summarily executed? No trial, no investigation? The SS and others (FBI? DPD?) captured these individuals, concluded they were the assassins of JFK (how did they do that?) and then just shot them?

Hey, Steve.  No.  Not that day anyway.  If my theory holds water they were
quickly identified as either being domestic agents or foreign ones, either pro or anti Castro
and this could have happened well before the press arrived at the DPD before 2 p.m..
Once identified and there is some evidence a high ranking military man did go to the DPD
and could have done that and then they were transferred probably to the Sherrif''s Office
for that day and then shipped out by an army truck to the nearest military base at night.
Oswald who was involved and captured had to take the rap for it all.  As for what happened to the
ones captured.  They probably interrogated the hell out of them and then ...

Put it this way,  I believe ALL suspects connected to the Kennedy assassination were captured that day
including LHO and there had to be a damn good reason why that wasn't divulged.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 17, 2018, 09:36:33 PM
..........

3.  It then occurs to these two agents that they have to go to the Sherirdan, the SS command
post for some reason and 30's station wagon suddenly appears (either marked or unmarked).

4.  If that happened, why would one of the Love Field cars have to go with them?
If you look at the transcripts 39 definitely ended up being there.

How do you know the SS at the Sheraton did not request the airport agents come to the Sheraton communications center?

Dan, as Steve notes, the SS agents at the airport were car-less and from out of  town.
I posted what I did because I was influenced by the routineness of the activity, especially under
the circumstances....chaos, uncertainty. IOW, it is the opposite of looking staged, it looks spontaneous, unsuspicious....

Two hours later :
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_705.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanTheory_1aof2.jpg)
....and wherever AF-1 is parked becomes a secure field. The aircraft is the responsibility of SS and the field, DPD and SS.:
(http://Jfkforum.com/images/DanTheory_2aof2.jpg)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 17, 2018, 09:38:51 PM
McGeorge Bundy (skull and bones) knew. He signed NSAM 273 overturning JFK's Vietnam withdrawal policy etc on 11/21.

LBJ knew, he requested better security than JFK prior to the assassination.

GHWB and RMN both knew.

LHO knew...he wasn't the shooter

Rowley of the SS knew

Lansdale knew

Hunt knew

Philips knew

Angleton knew

Harvey knew

Ruby knew

Ferrie knew

Shaw knew

Morales knew

Dulles knew

Cabell knew

Wade knew

Fritz knew
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 17, 2018, 09:49:00 PM
Dan, as Steve notes, the SS agents at the airport were car-less and from out of  town.
I posted what I did because I was influenced by the routineness of the activity, especially under
the circumstances....chaos, uncertainty. IOW, it is the opposite of looking staged, it looks spontaneous, unsuspicious....

Supporting Doc. images to follow.....

Hey, Tom.  As Steve and I both agree looking through this Radio Relays is confusing to say the least.
Just answer one question for me.  This 30's station wagon that you pointed out ... was it part of the DPD
or not?  Was it an SS station wagon?

Btw ... Yes, the two SS agents were car-less I know that, but they did go to lunch
did they not?  And if so, who else would have driven them to a diner of some sort if it wasn't
a Love Field car?

Incidentally, it was Bill Brown who gave me that info about the two agents who went
to lunch and that was a few years back.  He stated that three SS agents stayed.  One who
remained within AF One and the other two went to a diner of some sort.  If I'm not mistaken,
he even mentioned the name of the place.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 17, 2018, 11:08:02 PM
Hey, Tom.  As Steve and I both agree looking through this Radio Relays is confusing to say the least.
Just answer one question for me.  This 30's station wagon that you pointed out ... was it part of the DPD
or not?  Was it an SS station wagon?

Btw ... Yes, the two SS agents were car-less I know that, but they did go to lunch
did they not?  And if so, who else would have driven them to a diner of some sort if it wasn't
a Love Field car?

Incidentally, it was Bill Brown who gave me that info about the two agents who went
to lunch and that was a few years back.  He stated that three SS agents stayed.  One who
remained within AF One and the other two went to a diner of some sort.  If I'm not mistaken,
he even mentioned the name of the place.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanRequest30sStationWagon.jpg)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 17, 2018, 11:10:35 PM
Tom,

Thank you for posting the link to CE 705. It helped clear things up for me a little bit.
Unit 39 says that he he in 30's station wagon and a few seconds later says, "I'm in the Sergeant's car." He goes on to say, "The other half of 39 is still at the field in the Love Field car.?

Unit 30 was Sergeant R.C. Childers. He was working the Second Platoon Northwest Area Substation.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
page 9 of that pdf file page 8 of Batchelor's Exhibit CE 5002.

Using CD 1420, here is the exchange:
CD 1420 p. 176
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11815&search=Mockingbird_Lane#relPageId=177&tab=page
........
.........
Steve Thomas


EOM
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Bill Brown on January 17, 2018, 11:12:25 PM
Hey, Bill.  Thanks for responding.  I really don't think the SS had any hand in the Kennedy
assassination so whether they were told to stand down or not, is a moot point to me.
Viewing the vid of Lawton does suggest he seemed upset but whether or not
it was a spur of the moment thing to order him to stay back or he was reminded that he was
to stay back doesn't matter.  What does matter to me is what happened afterwards.  Did they
go to lunch somewhere other than Love Field and were they escorted there by one of the
Love Field cars.  From there did they subsequently assist the police in the capture of suspects
tied to the assassination?  If that could have happened then look back at what I presented.
It could fit.

Hope everything is going well with you.


Quote
Hey, Bill.  Thanks for responding.

No worries.


Quote
I really don't think the SS had any hand in the Kennedy assassination...

Good.


Quote
...so whether they were told to stand down or not, is a moot point to me.

Okay.  But, you made it a point (#1 in your original post).


Quote
Viewing the vid of Lawton does suggest he seemed upset...

Secret Service Agent Gerald Blaine stated that Lawton was acting in a joking/mocking manner, as if to say ?It's all yours now, guys. I've done my job. Now get out of here so I can have some lunch.?


Quote
Did they go to lunch somewhere other than Love Field and were they escorted there by one of the Love Field cars.

About fifteen minutes after the motorcade departed Love Field, Henry R y b k a, Don Lawton and Roger Warner (Secret Service, Dallas Field Office) all three went to lunch in the airport restaurant.  They were still in that restaurant when they got word of the shooting and were ordered to return to Air Force One to secure the area.


Quote
From there did they subsequently assist the police in the capture of suspects tied to the assassination?  If that could have happened then look back at what I presented. It could fit.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, Dan.  Keep us posted.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Bill Brown on January 17, 2018, 11:18:34 PM
Hey, Steve (Thomas.)  As you well know this case is confusing enough as it is but I have some
questions with what you and Tom posted. 

1.  The two SS agents went to lunch and it's understandable to me that they would have
went by a Love Field car.

2.  After they heard about the assassination and if they didn't assist the police make
any arrests then they most likely went back to Love Field.

3.  It then occurs to these two agents that they have to go to the Sherirdan, the SS command
post for some reason and 30's station wagon suddenly appears (either marked or unmarked).

4.  If that happened, why would one of the Love Field cars have to go with them?
If you look at the transcripts 39 definitely ended up being there.


Quote
1.  The two SS agents went to lunch and it's understandable to me that they would have
went by a Love Field car.

2.  After they heard about the assassination and if they didn't assist the police make
any arrests then they most likely went back to Love Field.

Lawton and  R y b k a  never left Love Field.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Bill Brown on January 17, 2018, 11:32:58 PM
Here you go, Dan...

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2554.pdf
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 18, 2018, 12:09:34 AM

Well, to quote MacMurphy from Cuckoo's Nest and a bit of Tom Scully.
But I tried, G...damn it.  (And, it was a nice try)  At least, I did that.

That still doesn't take away the possibility that something could have taken
place at Redbird Airfield without any SS agents.

We have a misplaced page before an arrest.
An arrest where the persons are being brought to the downtown jail.
We have SS agents going for lunch.
We have SS agents going downtown. 
A station wagon was mentioned.
A Love Field car going with those agents.

Good landing but in the wrong Airport.

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 18, 2018, 12:27:34 AM
Well, to quote MacMurphy from Cuckoo's Nest and a bit of Tom Scully.
But I tried, G...damn it.  (And, it was a nice try)  At least, I did that.

That still doesn't take away the possibility that something could have taken
place at Redbird Airfield without any SS agents.

We have a misplaced page before an arrest.
An arrest where the persons are being brought to the downtown jail.
We have SS agents going for lunch.
We have SS agents going downtown. 
A station wagon was mentioned.
A Love Field car going with those agents.

Good landing but in the wrong Airport.

Caprio...... consider conducting yourself on this forum reasonably, thoughtfully, honestly, like Dan DAlimonte is, leading us by his example.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 18, 2018, 12:29:14 AM
Well, to quote MacMurphy from, Cuckoo's Nest and a little bit of Tom Scully.
But, at least, I tried G.. damn it.  (And, a nice try, it was.)  At least I did that.

We have two SS agents not going with the Motorcade so they go for lunch.
We have a misplaced page in the transcripts before an arrest.
We have persons from that arrest going to the downtown jail.
We have SS agents going downtown and a station wagon is mentioned.
We have a Love Field car going with those SS agents.

And, somehow I made a terrific landing in the wrong airport.

And, speaking of Airports or fields.  I still maintain other assassins were captured
that day at Redbird whether SS agents were there or not.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 18, 2018, 04:29:50 PM
G H W Bush was staying at the Sheraton on 11/21
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 18, 2018, 07:06:20 PM
Room 2422.

However, George H W Bush is about the only person of his generation who can't remember where he was when JFK was killed.  Nixon is almost as bad but he just claims he got confused with the times and time differences when he flew out of Dallas on 11/22 soon after JFK was killed.

GHWB then panicked and phoned in a stupid alibi trying to implicate someone else in the murder!!

GHWB was in the DalTex building that day under CIA cover as Texas Oilman.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 18, 2018, 07:44:11 PM
Room 2422.

However, George H W Bush is about the only person of his generation who can't remember where he was when JFK was killed.  Nixon is almost as bad but he just claims he got confused with the times and time differences when he flew out of Dallas on 11/22 soon after JFK was killed.

GHWB then panicked and phoned in a stupid alibi trying to implicate someone else in the murder!!

GHWB was in the DalTex building that day under CIA cover as Texas Oilman.

(BTW, Lee, do not preach to "the choir" (ME). Just try to get everything right, every time, in every post. 
http://jfkfacts.org/exchange-on-the-bush-did-it-theory/#comment-861370
Tom S. March 5, 2016 at 10:30 pm
http://jfkfacts.org/exchange-on-the-bush-did-it-theory/#comment-861415
Tom S.  March 6, 2016 at 8:29 am )

Bush has plenty to answer for, an albatross around his neck/legacy, but the evidence is what it is; in this and in every instance.:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vhlspy2QK_4J:https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D14959.7+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ua&client=opera (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vhlspy2QK_4J:https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D14959.7+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ua&client=opera)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/November-22-1963-Book-Back-Cover.jpg)
Source of image directly above: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v5M6NvpAmk4/Umg7QKYxFaI/AAAAAAAAwG0/22JF5BgX8aE/s3000-h/November-22-1963-Book-Back-Cover.jpg
....And: (http://jfkforum.com/images/BushReCall22NovemberJodyElliottHansen.jpg)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 18, 2018, 08:53:25 PM
(BTW, Lee, do not preach to "the choir" (ME). Just try to get everything right, every time, in every post. 
http://jfkfacts.org/exchange-on-the-bush-did-it-theory/#comment-861370
Tom S. March 5, 2016 at 10:30 pm
http://jfkfacts.org/exchange-on-the-bush-did-it-theory/#comment-861415
Tom S.  March 6, 2016 at 8:29 am )

Bush has plenty to answer for, an albatross around his neck/legacy, but the evidence is what it is; in this and in every instance.:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vhlspy2QK_4J:https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D14959.7+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ua&client=opera (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vhlspy2QK_4J:https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D14959.7+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ua&client=opera)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/November-22-1963-Book-Back-Cover.jpg)
Source of image directly above: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v5M6NvpAmk4/Umg7QKYxFaI/AAAAAAAAwG0/22JF5BgX8aE/s3000-h/November-22-1963-Book-Back-Cover.jpg
....And: (http://jfkforum.com/images/BushReCall22NovemberJodyElliottHansen.jpg)

And Tom please don't be such a patronising, condescending bore.

No one on hear knows exactly what happened or indeed if evidence they post is true.  The only thing we do know is that it was a conspiracy.  The rest is hypothesis.  Some good quality, some not so good.  You can't reliably prove your posts are any more accurate than anyone else's.  Despite the reams and reams you post about your 7th cousin's friend's cat owner who once was in the same state as Bob's uncle.  Quantity and complexity does not beat the simple facts and truths.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 18, 2018, 09:16:24 PM
Okay, before I play taps over my theory I would like some type of clarification
which maybe, Steve or Tom or Bill or anyone can provide.

A Love Field car is associated with well, Love Field and anything
connected with it.  We know by the radio relays that a Love Field car
had something to do with SS agents, 30's station wagon and the Sheraton.

According to Bill Brown, Rybka and Lawton ate lunch in a restaurant
at Love Field and they never left Love Field.  If they did and went to
the Sheraton the SS command center then a Love Field car would have brought
them there and back.  In that case, there would have been no need for a station wagon at all.
Unless 30's station wagon was at Love Field to begin with, and Rybka and Lawton,
wanted to go for a drive with the Love Field car leading the way..  This makes no sense.

If the SS agents were those who were waiting at the Trade Mart and they were brought
by 30's station wagon (assuming it was a DPD car) then the cop who drove them there, would
have driven them or, some of them, to the Sheraton.  There would be no need for a Love Field car. 
If the 30's station wagon was an SS vehicle and they got there without a Love Field car then
they could have gone back without a Love Field car.

If the SS agents were from another city or district and they didn't know their way to
the Sheraton, the command center, then why a Love Field car to lead them there?

I have a headache.  Any answers would be appreciated.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 19, 2018, 03:19:44 AM
Dan, I shared a page image of and link to CE 1974.
If you saw the description in it of the name of the DPD
Sgt. and the 30?s station wagon before you settled on your
theory, how might have that description influenced the
development of your theory? I think I read your association
with that station wagon included in a transcript of DPD radio
calls with a claim of Roger Craig.

Now you seem to be asking a reverse engineering question.
There is little to trigger suspicion related to a DPD officer assigned
to Love Field SS detail switchng from unit 39 to the station wagon,
30?s.
The SS of 1963 was a national agency of about 300 also tasked
with counterfeiting investigations. IOW, it protected the president
and the currency. The presidential limo and its predecessor named
Queen Mary were transported ahead of AF-1 by military air
transport. Sorrels was resident SS agent in Dallas, a one man
office.

Unless you are a Caprio or Lee Worrels, self exempted from
considering or supplying relevant or supporting evidence,
please weigh the details in CE 1974 related to the station wagon
linked to the DPD Sgt and share how you might impeach what
the exhibit says. Would the DPD wagon not also have been useful
in transporting SS comms equipment from Love Field
to the Sheraton and back? SS was a small agency with
no local presence or resources aside from Sorrels.

Or, not.... and dwell in a Caprio alternate
universe.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 19, 2018, 10:37:57 AM

Would the DPD wagon not also have been useful
in transporting SS comms equipment from Love Field
to the Sheraton and back? SS was a small agency with
no local presence or resources aside from Sorrels.
Tom,

We know that Unit 30 was Sergeant R.C. Childers.  Purdue Lawrence's assignments only seem to extend as far as the Trade Mart, so we are not sure exactly what Childers' assignments were at Love Field. We can be reasonably sure that they would have involved with providing security to Air Force I and II, but he could very well have been doing other things.

Just a small point, the Dallas SS Office had about six agents in it.
Roger Warner was one. He's the  Dallas agent who took Rybka and Lawton to lunch at the airport. See his Report:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0408b.htm

Several of the other Dallas SS Agents were:
James H. ?Mike? Howard  and Charles Kunkel were a couple of others.
William H. Patterson
John Howlett

They would each have their own part to play in the JFK saga.

Steve Thomas

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 19, 2018, 12:56:44 PM
......
.....Go further down the page.

And (Ask) 139 to meet me at the entrance to Love Field   I have additional cars to route out there.

You will have to take them on because he is coming downtown with some Secret Service men.

Here again ... Notice the Love Field Car cannot assist what presumably is going to be the
motorcade group to head back to Love Field after they leave Parkland Hospital.  And, why is that?
Because he's going downtown with some Secret Service men.  And, if suspects in a station wagon
were arrested at Redbird then someone outside of the suspects would be driving the station wagon.

Btw ... the station wagon is the same one noticed by Craig and others
and to me,.anyway ....  all suspects involved in JFK's murder were captured that day.

Dan, I shared a page image of and link to CE 1974.
If you saw the description in it of the name of the DPD
Sgt. and the 30?s station wagon before you settled on your
theory, how might have that description influenced the
development of your theory? I think I read your association
with that station wagon included in a transcript of DPD radio
calls with a claim of Roger Craig.

Now you seem to be asking a reverse engineering question.
There is little to trigger suspicion related to a DPD officer assigned
to Love Field SS detail switchng from unit 39 to the station wagon,
30?s.
The SS of 1963 was a national agency of about 300 also tasked
with counterfeiting investigations. IOW, it protected the president
and the currency. The presidential limo and its predecessor named
Queen Mary were transported ahead of AF-1 by military air
transport. Sorrels was resident SS agent in Dallas, a one man
office.

Unless you are a Caprio or Lee Worrels, self exempted from
considering or supplying relevant or supporting evidence,
please weigh the details in CE 1974 related to the station wagon
linked to the DPD Sgt and share how you might impeach what
the exhibit says. Would the DPD wagon not also have been useful
in transporting SS comms equipment from Love Field
to the Sheraton and back? SS was a small agency with
no local presence or resources aside from Sorrels.

Or, not.... and dwell in a Caprio alternate
universe.

Tom,

We know that Unit 30 was Sergeant R.C. Childers.  Purdue Lawrence's assignments only seem to extend as far as the Trade Mart, so we are not sure exactly what Childers' assignments were at Love Field. We can be reasonably sure that they would have involved with providing security to Air Force I and II, but he could very well have been doing other things.

Just a small point, the Dallas SS Office had about six agents in it.
Roger Warner was one. He's the  Dallas agent who took Rybka and Lawton to lunch at the airport. See his Report:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0408b.htm

Several of the other Dallas SS Agents were:
James H. ?Mike? Howard  and Charles Kunkel were a couple of others.
William H. Patterson
John Howlett

They would each have their own part to play in the JFK saga.

Steve Thomas

Steve, I appreciate your details correcting the errors I made in my last post.

I had studied the career assignments of Sorrels and of John Rice and it has stuck in my mind that the pre-assassination
staff of the SS was small and spread pretty thin. The article below is dated 4 April, 1963. The details you posted helped
remind me that I had read about Robert Steuart and Elmer Moore working out of the Dallas office. There was also a Fort
Worth based SS agent, Mike Howard.

I was coming from an assumption that SS also had an agent in El Paso and I assume also in Austin, Houston, and San Antonio
and if there were just six SS agents, on average, based in each state, there would be almost nobody available to staff the presidential
protection detail.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanSS04April63.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanSS2017.jpg)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 19, 2018, 01:43:35 PM
Tom,

We know that Unit 30 was Sergeant R.C. Childers.  Purdue Lawrence's assignments only seem to extend as far as the Trade Mart, so we are not sure exactly what Childers' assignments were at Love Field. We can be reasonably sure that they would have involved with providing security to Air Force I and II, but he could very well have been doing other things.

Just a small point, the Dallas SS Office had about six agents in it.
Roger Warner was one. He's the  Dallas agent who took Rybka and Lawton to lunch at the airport. See his Report:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0408b.htm

Several of the other Dallas SS Agents were:
James H. ?Mike? Howard  and Charles Kunkel were a couple of others.
William H. Patterson
John Howlett

They would each have their own part to play in the JFK saga.

Steve Thomas

Hey, Steve.  This SS Warner wouldn't be the same Special Agent Warner
who compiled the Radio Traffic Transcripts I was using ... would it?
Please see links.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-047.gif
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-082.gif

Does the saga continue?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 19, 2018, 02:12:53 PM
Okay, before I play taps over my theory I would like some type of clarification
which maybe, Steve or Tom or Bill or anyone can provide.

A Love Field car is associated with well, Love Field and anything
connected with it.  We know by the radio relays that a Love Field car
had something to do with SS agents, 30's station wagon and the Sheraton.

According to Bill Brown, Rybka and Lawton ate lunch in a restaurant
at Love Field and they never left Love Field.  If they did and went to
the Sheraton the SS command center then a Love Field car would have brought
them there and back.  In that case, there would have been no need for a station wagon at all.
Unless 30's station wagon was at Love Field to begin with, and Rybka and Lawton,
wanted to go for a drive with the Love Field car leading the way..  This makes no sense.

If the SS agents were those who were waiting at the Trade Mart and they were brought
by 30's station wagon (assuming it was a DPD car) then the cop who drove them there, would
have driven them or, some of them, to the Sheraton.  There would be no need for a Love Field car. 
If the 30's station wagon was an SS vehicle and they got there without a Love Field car then
they could have gone back without a Love Field car.

If the SS agents were from another city or district and they didn't know their way to
the Sheraton, the command center, then why a Love Field car to lead them there?

I have a headache.  Any answers would be appreciated.

Hi Dan, thanks for a great original post and I hope people stick with it to piece things together.  My views are:

- The SS were part of the Federal Department of the Treasury and significantly implicated in the plot to kill JFK.  JFK had started to take away the creation of bank notes from the private Rothschild business and returned the right to the US Treasury.  Indeed some US bank notes had been issued and this spelled the imminent end of the Rothschild Federal Reserve Bank under Kennedy.  JFK's executive order was never repealed and so that right still exists today!!

- Whether the SS rosters were changed last minute or not is irrelevant.  What is certain is that the SS were part of the bigger plot to leave the president woefully lacking in protection both in the motorcade, on the ground in DP and in surrounding buildings.  They approved a route that was against their own regulations.  This was all planned well in advance.

- Personally, I have little doubt about Roger Craig's testimony despite what people say.  He mentions a station waggon and LHO and a driver that matches the description of Mac Wallace who was dark skinned.  The waggon was headed in the direction of Redbird and LHO volunteered that the waggon belonged to Ruth Paine.

- I believe there was a plan to fly assassins from Redbird to another airport where Ferrie would take them to MC or Canada.  Tosh Plumley may have been the other pilot at Redbird.

- The military senior figure may well have been Lansdale in Dallas but of course he was senior CIA using the cover of the military.  He would have cleared their release later at the Sheriffs office
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 19, 2018, 02:35:34 PM


Hey Lee.  Thanks for reading my thread and for commenting.
As I said to Bill, I really don't believe the SS had a hand in anything.
As for the motive behind the assassination is not my concern now.
What I'm currently interested in is what took place on the ground, so to speak. 
Was there an arrest at Redbird and did the SS aid the police in making that arrest
and most importantly of all ... was it covered up?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 19, 2018, 03:28:13 PM

Hey Lee.  Thanks for reading my thread and for commenting.
As I said to Bill, I really don't believe the SS had a hand in anything.
As for the motive behind the assassination is not my concern now.
What I'm currently interested in is what took place on the ground, so to speak. 
Was there an arrest at Redbird and did the SS aid the police in making that arrest
and most importantly of all ... was it covered up?

Hi Dan, I remember that Ferrie and a couple of associates were at an ice skating rink somewhere and Ferrie was constantly on the pay phone on 11/22.  It is believed he was tracking progress of the assassins escape from Redbird to an airport near where Ferrie was so that he could fly them out of the country.  However, the plan didn't go how it was supposed to so Ferrie didn't have anything to do that day.  This may indicate that the assassins did indeed get arrested at or on the way to Redbird.  Maybe the FBI knew the plane and tipped off the DPD?  Hoover had to cover things up due to the FBI's knowledge of LHO but he still hated the CIA and tried every way he could to push the suspicion towards the CIA.

Tosh Plumley claimed that he flew a CIA plane to Dallas on the morning of 11/22 but due to weather had to land somewhere near.  I can't recall if this was Redbird or not but someone on here will recall it.  Plumley claims he was flying in members of an abort team that included Johnny Roselli!!

I'm sure their arrest was covered up just like the tramps, GHWB and Loren Hall that day.  Maybe Jim Braden too.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 19, 2018, 03:44:54 PM
Hey, Steve.  This SS Warner wouldn't be the same Special Agent Warner
who compiled the Radio Traffic Transcripts I was using ... would it?

Dan,

Yep. One and the same. Like I said, each one of these guys had their own part to play.
Howard and Kunkel babysitting Marina at the Six Flags.
Patterson working with Ellworth on the Miller and Whitter National Guard Armory theft.
Roger Warner doing his thing.
Six or seven of them went with Forrest Sorrels when he took Howard Brennan in to identify Oswald in the lineup. What a bummer it must have been when he brought Brennan out and had to tell them that Brennan had "failed to identify".

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 19, 2018, 04:08:47 PM

I was coming from an assumption that SS also had an agent in El Paso and I assume also in Austin, Houston, and San Antonio
and if there were just six SS agents, on average, based in each state, there would be almost nobody available to staff the presidential
protection detail.


Tom,

Without knowing this for a fact, I'm going on the assumption that there were probably six or seven agents in each field office.

You wrote, "there would be almost nobody available to staff the presidential
protection detail."

You got that right. I spent some time trying to figure out who the Secret Service Agent was, who was present on the sixth floor when pictures of the rifle were being taken at 1:22 PM, and who the Secret Service Agent was, who was present during Oswald's first interrogation at 2:20 PM.

I was never able to determine that to my satisfaction. When they wrote up their after-action Report, Sims and Boyd said they didn't know who he was. I was satisfied that it was not Forrest Sorrels.

Steve Thomas

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 19, 2018, 04:18:39 PM
Tom,

Without knowing this for a fact, I'm going on the assumption that there were probably six or seven agents in each field office.


Tom and Dan,

I forgot to mention that you can read the after-action Reports of some of the Dallas SS Agents in the WC Hearings and Exhibits:
(18H) beginning on page 786.  That's CE 1024
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0400b.htm

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 19, 2018, 04:32:58 PM
Dan,

Yep. One and the same. Like I said, each one of these guys had their own part to play.
Howard and Kunkel babysitting Marina at the Six Flags.
Patterson working with Ellworth on the Miller and Whitter National Guard Armory theft.
Roger Warner doing his thing.
Six or seven of them went with Forrest Sorrels when he took Howard Brennan in to identify Oswald in the lineup. What a bummer it must have been when he brought Brennan out and had to tell them that Brennan had "failed to identify".

Steve Thomas

Hey, Steve.  I wish the high five icon was still in place because that's what I would be
displaying to you.  So Warner who was in the thick of the action was now in charge
of presenting the official version of what took place?  How - lucky - that was for the American people.

Btw ... what you seem - or are - suggesting as to what took place is far more sinister
than I could ever have imagined.  I would like to hope that wasn't true.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 19, 2018, 04:49:37 PM
Hey, Steve.  I wish the high five icon was still in place because that's what I would be
displaying to you.  So Warner who was in the thick of the action was now in charge
of presenting the official version of what took place?  How - lucky- that was for the American people.

Steve, I found what Sylvia Meagher had to say on that area of interest after you posted some of the SS
names in the Dallas office. Reading on, below this image and into the next page, I was surprised at how
unrestrained she was about speculation she was willing to share publicly. But that was in a different time.
We have access to more, at our fingertips, hence my hesitancy to dwell on or emphasize what has remained illusive.
I have learned you have to go around the unresolveable. No one proved Priscilla was a CIA asset. It was possible
to prove her first cousin was and he assigned his friend, Clark Clifford's aunt's husband, to chauffeur and mind Priscilla
and Marina in Sedona. Sylvia and many others are still swinging for the fences and striking out instead of at least getting on base.

Accessories After the Fact (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=7yBiWuiqFIKgsQXgsofgBQ&q=mike+howard%2C+who+is+actually+stationed+at+fort+worth.&oq=mike+howard%2C+who+is+actually+stationed+at+fort+worth.&gs_l=psy-ab.12...177.26993.0.28428.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.26rfRMYUmrU)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DanSSsylviaM.jpg)
Quote
An Agent of History: Mike Howard, former Secret Service agent for JFK ...
starlocalmedia.com/...mike-howard.../article_d007cf16-dcaa-5580-ab95-bb86f89892...
Nov 28, 2010 - An Agent of History: Mike Howard, former Secret Service agent for JFK and LBJ, looks back at the day that shook the world 47 years ago in Dallas .... the trips LBJ's daughter Lynda took all over the country to the small and solemn funeral held for Oswald at Shannon Rose Memorial Cemetery in Fort Worth.
Accessories After the Fact: The Warren Commission, the Authorities & ...
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=162873423X
Sylvia Meagher - 2013 - ‎History
Headed by Forrest V. Sorrels, the office isstaffed by six agents, including Mike Howard, whois actually stationed at Fort Worth.(13H 57;CE 2554) Of theremaining five, twowere assigned totheTrade Mart (J. J. Howlett andRobert Steuart) and two (William Patterson and Roger Warner)toLove Field. (CE 1024, CE2554) There is ...
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 19, 2018, 06:08:20 PM
Steve, I found what Sylvia Meagher had to say on that area of interest after you posted some of the SS
names in the Dallas office. Reading on, below this image and into the next page, I was surprised at how
unrestrained she was about speculation she was willing to share publicly. But that was in a different time.

Tom,

I have the utmost respect for Sylvia Meagher, but I'd have to disagree with her here.

In a February 15, 1999 article entitled ?Conspiracy Beliefs (and Denials) In High Places?, author Vince Palamara quotes an article by reporter Earl Golz in the August 27, 1978 issue of the Dallas Morning News. In his article, Golz wrote that one Dallas Secret Service Agent named Elmer Moore did not submit a report, that he was in San Francisco and did not return to Dallas to join the investigation until a week later. Vince Palamara then went on to say that two other agents did not submit a written report: James H. ?Mike? Howard and Charles Kunkel. Palamara wrote, ?For his part, Howard claimed in a lecture in February 1999 that he was at the Hotel Texas (in Fort Worth) cleaning up when the shooting occurred and that Kunkel was in Washington, D.C on an unspecified investigation at the time. Howard and Kunkel's whereabouts remain unverified.?68.

68. Palamara, Vince. ?Conspiracy Beliefs (and Denials) In High Places.? 2/15/99, As cited in the Kennedy Assassination Homepage, 1995-2002 by John McAdams, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/beliefs.htm


If Charles Kunkel was indeed on an ?unspecified assignment in Washington, D.C.?, there is the question of when he returned to Dallas. We know from the testimony of Mr. James Herbert Martin, who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald and at the time was Resident Manager of the Six Flags Inn, that James Howard and Charles Kunkel were the Secret Service Agents who arranged for the Oswald family to stay at the motel.?73. Was Charles E. Kunkel the ?Secret Service man? who needed a ride from Love Field to downtown Dallas at 12:38PM as recorded in the transcripts of the Dallas Police radio log? Was he also on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository when the rifle was found at 1:22PM? Was he present at Oswald's interrogation at 2:20PM?

73. Testimony of James Herbert Martin. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume I, p. 472, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-m..._Vol1_0242b.htm

Forrest Sorrels never went up to the sixth floor of the TSBD, and left with Zapruder to get his film developed, so he wasn't at police headquarters at 2:20. He told the WC that he got to police headquarters at 2:00 PM, but Hosty told the WC that it Sorrels didn't get there until around 6:00 PM.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 19, 2018, 06:50:13 PM
Tom,

I have the utmost respect for Sylvia Meagher, but I'd have to disagree with her here.

In a February 15, 1999 article entitled ?Conspiracy Beliefs (and Denials) In High Places?, author Vince Palamara quotes an article by reporter Earl Golz in the August 27, 1978 issue of the Dallas Morning News. In his article, Golz wrote that one Dallas Secret Service Agent named Elmer Moore did not submit a report, that he was in San Francisco and did not return to Dallas to join the investigation until a week later. Vince Palamara then went on to say that two other agents did not submit a written report: James H. ?Mike? Howard and Charles Kunkel. Palamara wrote, ?For his part, Howard claimed in a lecture in February 1999 that he was at the Hotel Texas (in Fort Worth) cleaning up when the shooting occurred and that Kunkel was in Washington, D.C on an unspecified investigation at the time. Howard and Kunkel's whereabouts remain unverified.?68.

68. Palamara, Vince. ?Conspiracy Beliefs (and Denials) In High Places.? 2/15/99, As cited in the Kennedy Assassination Homepage, 1995-2002 by John McAdams, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/beliefs.htm


If Charles Kunkel was indeed on an ?unspecified assignment in Washington, D.C.?, there is the question of when he returned to Dallas. We know from the testimony of Mr. James Herbert Martin, who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald and at the time was Resident Manager of the Six Flags Inn, that James Howard and Charles Kunkel were the Secret Service Agents who arranged for the Oswald family to stay at the motel.?73. Was Charles E. Kunkel the ?Secret Service man? who needed a ride from Love Field to downtown Dallas at 12:38PM as recorded in the transcripts of the Dallas Police radio log? Was he also on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository when the rifle was found at 1:22PM? Was he present at Oswald's interrogation at 2:20PM?

73. Testimony of James Herbert Martin. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume I, p. 472, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-m..._Vol1_0242b.htm

Forrest Sorrels never went up to the sixth floor of the TSBD, and left with Zapruder to get his film developed, so he wasn't at police headquarters at 2:20. He told the WC that he got to police headquarters at 2:00 PM, but Hosty told the WC that it Sorrels didn't get there until around 6:00 PM.

Steve Thomas

Dan, Steve,

According to Fletcher L Prouty the SS man at LHO's initial interrogation at DPD was a man named Charlie.  I class FLP as a credible witness / source so I would say it was Charlie Kunkel who was on an "unspecified investigation in Washington"
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 19, 2018, 07:13:54 PM
Dan,

Yep. One and the same. Like I said, each one of these guys had their own part to play.
Howard and Kunkel babysitting Marina at the Six Flags.
Patterson working with Ellworth on the Miller and Whitter National Guard Armory theft.
Roger Warner doing his thing.
Six or seven of them went with Forrest Sorrels when he took Howard Brennan in to identify Oswald in the lineup. What a bummer it must have been when he brought Brennan out and had to tell them that Brennan had "failed to identify".

Steve Thomas

Second different response to this quote.  So if Warner brought the two SS agents to lunch
at Love Field then could one assume 30's station wagon designated for use by the SS was
indeed at Love Field?  And ... if a bulletin regarding Kennedy did go over the airwaves either Warner
and/or a combination of Lawton an Rybka could have assisted the police concerning an arrest at Redbird?
And again, if Warner was in charge of documenting the Radio Relays and that arrest was NOT to be connected to the official story then maybe a misplaced page in the transcripts would be warranted?
ie Page 31 not appearing in front of Page 32 which cited the arrest or the transfer of persons to the downtown jail.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 19, 2018, 07:23:58 PM
Hi Dan, I remember that Ferrie and a couple of associates were at an ice skating rink somewhere and Ferrie was constantly on the pay phone on 11/22.  It is believed he was tracking progress of the assassins escape from Redbird to an airport near where Ferrie was so that he could fly them out of the country.  However, the plan didn't go how it was supposed to so Ferrie didn't have anything to do that day.  This may indicate that the assassins did indeed get arrested at or on the way to Redbird.  Maybe the FBI knew the plane and tipped off the DPD?  Hoover had to cover things up due to the FBI's knowledge of LHO but he still hated the CIA and tried every way he could to push the suspicion towards the CIA.

Tosh Plumley claimed that he flew a CIA plane to Dallas on the morning of 11/22 but due to weather had to land somewhere near.  I can't recall if this was Redbird or not but someone on here will recall it.  Plumley claims he was flying in members of an abort team that included Johnny Roselli!!

I'm sure their arrest was covered up just like the tramps, GHWB and Loren Hall that day.  Maybe Jim Braden too.

Hey, Lee.  I've heard all those stories before but I'm not sure if all of it could have happened
and then covered up.  Right now, like I said earlier, it's Redbird and possibly an arrest there
that concerns me.  Ferrie, to me, seems like he was bright enough to stay away from
the whole thing.  Some even claim he was in the Plaza that day.  I don't know but I think
the ice rink story makes far more sense.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 19, 2018, 09:19:25 PM
Dan, Steve,

According to Fletcher L Prouty the SS man at LHO's initial interrogation at DPD was a man named Charlie.  I class FLP as a credible witness / source so I would say it was Charlie Kunkel who was on an "unspecified investigation in Washington"

Lee,

On the afternoon of November 22nd, Detective James Leavelle was spearheading the investigation of Oswald for the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit. On April 7, 1964 he testified to the Warren Commission that he had gone to the Texas Theater, but because of the heavy traffic, had arrived too late to participate in Oswald?s arrest. He then went back to the police station and took affidavits from witnesses. ?So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the same one who assassinated the President.?(69).

The minute that connection was made, the focus of the investigation changed. Will Fritz wanted Oswald in his office right then. FBI agents were called in and if six members of the Dallas Police Department can be believed, at least one Secret Service Agent whose identity has remained a secret ever since November 22, 1963. I believe that Agent is Charles Kunkel, the one Agent whose whereabouts on November 22nd can?t be confirmed. Policemen are proud of their collars and even after 35 years the idea of having one taken away from you still rankles. On the 35th anniversary of the assassination, the Texas Monthly magazine did an interview with several people who were witnesses to the events of November 22nd. One of the interviewees was Detective Jim Leavelle. During the conversation, he had this to say, ?I talked to him, yeah, about 10, maybe 15 minutes one-on-one before Captain Fritz and the other officers came back from the book depository, preparatory to going look for him, and found out he was already there. When the Captain came in and asked me what his name was, and I told him, he asked me where he worked, and he said the book depository, he said, 'You're the one I want to talk to.' So, in essence, they took my prisoner away. I lost my prisoner. He and Chief Charles of the Secret Service.?(70).

Why Leavelle would have referred to him as ?Chief? Charles is a mystery, and we can?t ask Kunkel because he passed away on June 27, 1992. When I asked James Leavelle why he referred to this person as Chief Charles in the article, former Detective Leavelle answered, ?I did not say Charles, I said ?Sorrels, Chief of the S.S.?.?(71). I asked the author of the article, Joe Patoski if he had recorded the interview. He wrote me and said that he had not recorded the interview. He used notes and was unsure where those notes were now.(72). So, is this an error in transcription? We?ll probably never know.

In a July 9, 1992 article, the Cross Plains Review said that Charles Kunkel went on to become the Special Agent-in-Charge of the Austin Office, where he retired in 1982. (73). By James Levealle's reasoning, Charles Kunkel would also be called ?Chief? Charles.

69. Testimony of James R. Leavelle. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VII, p. 262, as cited in the History Matters Archive http://www.history-m..._Vol7_0135b.htm
70. Patoski, Joe Nick. ?What They Saw Then: Unedited Transcripts?, Texas Monthly, November, 1998. as cited in:
http://web.archive.o...anscripts.1.php
71. Email from Detective James Leavelle, retired. February 28, 2003.
72. Email from Joe Nick Patoski. March 3, 2003.
73. Texas Tech University Southwest Collection/Special Collections Library
Cross Plains Review, July 9, 1992 Article not bylined.
https://swco-ir.tdl.org/swco-ir/handle/10605/231140

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 20, 2018, 10:27:30 AM
Lee,

On the afternoon of November 22nd, Detective James Leavelle was spearheading the investigation of Oswald for the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit. On April 7, 1964 he testified to the Warren Commission that he had gone to the Texas Theater, but because of the heavy traffic, had arrived too late to participate in Oswald?s arrest. He then went back to the police station and took affidavits from witnesses. ?So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the same one who assassinated the President.?(69).

The minute that connection was made, the focus of the investigation changed. Will Fritz wanted Oswald in his office right then. FBI agents were called in and if six members of the Dallas Police Department can be believed, at least one Secret Service Agent whose identity has remained a secret ever since November 22, 1963. I believe that Agent is Charles Kunkel, the one Agent whose whereabouts on November 22nd can?t be confirmed. Policemen are proud of their collars and even after 35 years the idea of having one taken away from you still rankles. On the 35th anniversary of the assassination, the Texas Monthly magazine did an interview with several people who were witnesses to the events of November 22nd. One of the interviewees was Detective Jim Leavelle. During the conversation, he had this to say, ?I talked to him, yeah, about 10, maybe 15 minutes one-on-one before Captain Fritz and the other officers came back from the book depository, preparatory to going look for him, and found out he was already there. When the Captain came in and asked me what his name was, and I told him, he asked me where he worked, and he said the book depository, he said, 'You're the one I want to talk to.' So, in essence, they took my prisoner away. I lost my prisoner. He and Chief Charles of the Secret Service.?(70).

Why Leavelle would have referred to him as ?Chief? Charles is a mystery, and we can?t ask Kunkel because he passed away on June 27, 1992. When I asked James Leavelle why he referred to this person as Chief Charles in the article, former Detective Leavelle answered, ?I did not say Charles, I said ?Sorrels, Chief of the S.S.?.?(71). I asked the author of the article, Joe Patoski if he had recorded the interview. He wrote me and said that he had not recorded the interview. He used notes and was unsure where those notes were now.(72). So, is this an error in transcription? We?ll probably never know.

In a July 9, 1992 article, the Cross Plains Review said that Charles Kunkel went on to become the Special Agent-in-Charge of the Austin Office, where he retired in 1982. (73). By James Levealle's reasoning, Charles Kunkel would also be called ?Chief? Charles.

69. Testimony of James R. Leavelle. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VII, p. 262, as cited in the History Matters Archive http://www.history-m..._Vol7_0135b.htm
70. Patoski, Joe Nick. ?What They Saw Then: Unedited Transcripts?, Texas Monthly, November, 1998. as cited in:
http://web.archive.o...anscripts.1.php
71. Email from Detective James Leavelle, retired. February 28, 2003.
72. Email from Joe Nick Patoski. March 3, 2003.
73. Texas Tech University Southwest Collection/Special Collections Library
Cross Plains Review, July 9, 1992 Article not bylined.
https://swco-ir.tdl.org/swco-ir/handle/10605/231140

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve, FLP referred to Chief Charles too so he was likely quoting Jim.

I think there may be merit in looking into the Tosh Plumley account of flying in an abort team on 11/22.  I had a feeling he landed a cia plane at Redbird and likely had a pick up later for the fleeing assassins
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 20, 2018, 12:35:13 PM
Thanks Steve, FLP referred to Chief Charles too so he was likely quoting Jim.


Lee,

Can you tell me under what conditions Prouty said this?
When and where?
Is this online anywhere?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 20, 2018, 05:02:19 PM

First of all, I would like to thank everyone who commented on this thread so far,
esp, Steve, Tom, Bill and Lee.  I had presented this theory a few times before the crash
and outside of, Steve, the only thing I ever heard came from crickets.  Now, if my theory leads
us to a dead end, SO BE IT.  I've never been one here who wouldn't admit when I was proved wrong.
But now ... there's been further info coming from Steve that the two SS agents who were brought
to lunch within Love Field was the SS agent Warner who was the same Warner who compiled the Radio
Traffic Transcripts I've been using.  So, let's look at this.

1. If Warner brought those agents, Rybka and Lawton, to lunch at Love Field then it is highly
likely he was using the 30's station wagon for SS agents either driven by himself or a DPD officer.
Then the same thing applies which I stated with Rybka and Lawton going outside for lunch being escorted by a Love Field car.  Nothing changes except now, the 30's station wagon with whatever SS agents were within, whether it was 1, 2 or all 3, could have assisted the police in capturing suspects in a separate station wagon at Redbird.   And, as for the Sheraton Hotel and bringing persons to the downtown jail  ...
BOTH could still apply.  Btw ... please look at the following link.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/32/3298-034.gif

Notice the question mark after the Sheraton is mentioned?

Btw ... a few years back I asked this Forum a question.  With all the press swarming
the DPD police station that day why were there no pictures of the 3 Tramps within the building?
Christer, responded that they were brought to the Sherrif's office.  Same thing here ...?
 
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 20, 2018, 06:25:23 PM
Lee,

Can you tell me under what conditions Prouty said this?
When and where?
Is this online anywhere?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

Steve, it was in his book; not The Secret Team but the book about JFK, CIA and Vietnam.  i'll dig out a full reference when I can
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 20, 2018, 08:16:33 PM

1. If Warner brought those agents, Rybka and Lawton, to lunch at Love Field then it is highly
likely he was using the 30's station wagon for SS agents either driven by himself or a DPD officer.


Dan,

Not necessarily. In his Report, Warner said that he helped Rybyka and Lawton secure AFI and AFII, and then they went to Love Field for lunch.
I'm assuming they went to the airport terminal. Rybka's and Lawton's job was to guard the plane, and they would not have wanted to stray too far away. I don't know if the terminal was within walking distance of where the planes were parked, but even if they weren't, Warner, being a local boy, would probably have had his own car.
I don't believe he was in car 39.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 20, 2018, 08:37:45 PM
Dan,

Not necessarily. In his Report, Warner said that he helped Rybyka and Lawton secure AFI and AFII, and then they went to Love Field for lunch.
I'm assuming they went to the airport terminal. Rybka's and Lawton's job was to guard the plane, and they would not have wanted to stray too far away. I don't know if the terminal was within walking distance of where the planes were parked, but even if they weren't, Warner, being a local boy, would probably have had his own car.
I don't believe he was in car 39.



Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve.  But I still have this quote in black and white on the misplaced page.
Secret Service -- outer perimeter -- they are being brought back
and the others on the same said page.

Btw ... was Warner assigned to Love Field or just visiting?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Steve Thomas on January 20, 2018, 09:38:43 PM

Btw ... was Warner assigned to Love Field or just visiting?

Dan,

In his Report,  https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0408b.htm
Warner said that he was assigned to Love Field to help in advanced preparation in anticipation of the President's arrival.
He said he got there about 10:30.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 20, 2018, 10:06:43 PM
Dan,

In his Report,  https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0408b.htm
Warner said that he was assigned to Love Field to help in advanced preparation in anticipation of the President's arrival.
He said he got there about 10:30.

Steve Thomas

Thank you. 

May the saga continue.  If I'm right, I'm right.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  I hope there's a definitive answer coming.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 21, 2018, 10:02:15 AM
Dan, some background information on Redbird Airport and Tosh Plumlee confirming their journey back to Redbird via Oakcliff and the fact they waited for others to return before departing but left without some of them.  Were they arrested and taken to the Sherrif's office away from all the fuss, identified by Lansdale and released like the tramps?

The abort team sounds like a cover story to me with maybe the pilots not knowing the real intention.

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/toshfiles.htm (http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/toshfiles.htm)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 21, 2018, 10:11:12 AM
Dan, some background information on Redbird Airport and Tosh Plumlee confirming their journey back to Redbird via Oakcliff and the fact they waited for others to return before departing but left without some of them.  Were they arrested and taken to the Sherrif's office away from all the fuss, identified by Lansdale and released like the tramps?

The abort team sounds like a cover story to me with maybe the pilots not knowing the real intention.

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/toshfiles.htm (http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/toshfiles.htm)

Note they flew to Houston where Ferrie, another pilot, was waiting at the nearby ice skating rink glued to the payphone there.

The last minute change of destination was made by Rioja "because of the unexpected assassination".  Maybe Rioja was the only one of the two pilots in the know.

With regards Warner being assigned to Love Field for preparations perhaps his assignment ended once AFI and AFII and the SS landed and the motorcade had left?  Maybe they lied about staying on the airport site for lunch as they breached their orders?  The SS were not good at discipline always
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 21, 2018, 11:56:36 AM
Note they flew to Houston where Ferrie, another pilot, was waiting at the nearby ice skating rink glued to the payphone there.

The last minute change of destination was made by Rioja "because of the unexpected assassination".  Maybe Rioja was the only one of the two pilots in the know.

With regards Warner being assigned to Love Field for preparations perhaps his assignment ended once AFI and AFII and the SS landed and the motorcade had left?  Maybe they lied about staying on the airport site for lunch as they breached their orders?  The SS were not good at discipline always

Hey, Lee.  Thanks for responding to this thread.  Yes ... if the version of events took place
as I suggest the truth would NOT have been divulged.  Here again let's look at the Transcripts
and see how just these two Relays could have added up.

Near 12:45 p.m. we have 67's relay ...
Did they head south?  To which the Dispatcher answers - Yes.

Just around 1 p.m. we have the following ...
Secret Service -- outer perimeter -- they are being brought back.

Seriously, I didn't pull these relays out of my ass-assination imagination.
They are there in the first completed documentation of the Radio Relays as done
by Warner by December, 1963 and I've shown how they have changed over the years.
Let alone, that the above quote re the SS was on a misplaced page before - a transfer
of persons to the downtown jail.

Possibility?  Some, or at least one, SS agent from Love Field - the - outer perimeter --
assisted the police in capturing suspects in a vehicle of some sort.  And - Yes - as you stated
the SS would have lied about staying at Love Field if what I'm suggesting did take place. 

As, for other possibilities, as proposed by, Steve and Tom, the switching of Channels,
a/o 30's SS station wagon going to the Sheraton a/o 158 possibly being on the other side of town
bringing persons not connected with the assassination to the downtown jail, all innocently
lining up during the same fifteen minutes.  I don't know.

   
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 21, 2018, 12:08:38 PM
Lee, I cannot find any of your Plumlee related claims in this four page, 1976 report. Can you present any verifiable
support of assumptions you post related to Plumlee claims, independent of Plumlee?

First page:
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&search=1968#relPageId=14&tab=page
Fourth Page:
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&relPageId=17&search=1968
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Plumlee1976B.jpg)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 21, 2018, 03:11:07 PM
Tom I posted a link that quotes Plumlee's final unadulterated and corrected statement of the events of that day.  It is on a site that the Mary Ferrell site links to.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 21, 2018, 03:16:21 PM
Hey, Lee.  Thanks for responding to this thread.  Yes ... if the version of events took place
as I suggest the truth would NOT have been divulged.  Here again let's look at the Transcripts
and see how just these two Relays could have added up.

Near 12:45 p.m. we have 67's relay ...
Did they head south?  To which the Dispatcher answers - Yes.

Just around 1 p.m. we have the following ...
Secret Service -- outer perimeter -- they are being brought back.

Seriously, I didn't pull these relays out of my ass-assination imagination.
They are there in the first completed documentation of the Radio Relays as done
by Warner by December, 1963 and I've shown how they have changed over the years.
Let alone, that the above quote re the SS was on a misplaced page before - a transfer
of persons to the downtown jail.

Possibility?  Some, or at least one, SS agent from Love Field - the - outer perimeter --
assisted the police in capturing suspects in a vehicle of some sort.  And - Yes - as you stated
the SS would have lied about staying at Love Field if what I'm suggesting did take place. 

As, for other possibilities, as proposed by, Steve and Tom, the switching of Channels,
a/o 30's SS station wagon going to the Sheraton a/o 158 being on the other side of town
bringing persons not connected with the assassination to the downtown jail, all innocently
lining up during the same fifteen minutes.  I don't know.

 

Dan, it may help to sketch or mark on a map the key areas of Love Field, Parkland, DP, Redbird, Sheraton etc and starting positions of the people involved to look at the scenarios based on the transcriptions.  I will take a look.

Can you explain the 30's station waggon to me?  Obviously this is different from the station Roger Craig witnessed leaving DP?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 21, 2018, 03:43:05 PM
Lee, I cannot find any of your Plumlee related claims in this four page, 1976 report. Can you present any verifiable
support of assumptions you post related to Plumlee claims, independent of Plumlee?

First page:
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&search=1968#relPageId=14&tab=page
Fourth Page:
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&relPageId=17&search=1968
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Plumlee1976B.jpg)

Tom, that says he last saw Rosselli in 1963 and not again until 1968
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 21, 2018, 03:48:24 PM
Dan, it may help to sketch or mark on a map the key areas of Love Field, Parkland, DP, Redbird, Sheraton etc and starting positions of the people involved to look at the scenarios based on the transcriptions.  I will take a look.

Can you explain the 30's station waggon to me?  Obviously this is different from the station Roger Craig witnessed leaving DP?

Lee.  Any help providing a map to the key positions would be greatly appreciated.
As for 30's station wagon ... this was brought up by Tom a few pages back.
From what I gather a) there was an SS command center at the Sheraton and b)
the SS had their own station wagon which, so far, I still can't find out if it was
driven by a DPD officer or driven by an SS agent himself.  Anyway, it was pointed out
to me that the station wagon which I cited in the Transcript page may NOT have been
Craig's station wagon, if you will, but the 30's station wagon simply going downtown
to the command center and needing a 202 clearance. 

As this developed, Steve pointed out that SS Warner (the same Warner who compiled
the Radio Transcripts I was using) was assigned to Love Field to help secure the area
with the SS agents who stayed behind.  Could he have driven the 30's station wagon
for his assignment at Love Field and then - after - still have encountered Craig's station wagon
at Redbird. ...  Anyway, the point counterpoint aspect to all this is only a few pages back from this one.   
It would be easier if you read it than me rehashing to you. 
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Tom Scully on January 21, 2018, 04:25:52 PM
Lee, I cannot find any of your Plumlee related claims in this four page, 1976 report. Can you present any verifiable
support of assumptions you post related to Plumlee claims, independent of Plumlee?

First page:
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&search=1968#relPageId=14&tab=page
Fourth Page:
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&relPageId=17&search=1968
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Plumlee1976B.jpg)

Tom, that says he last saw Rosselli in 1963 and not again until 1968

Yup....Plumlee in 1976 only admits to being in Rosselli's presence six months
before the JFK Assassination and not again until 1968 when he told Rosselli
he (Plumlee) did not remember him. Page 4 of the 1976 document is displayed
above, and I am displaying page 3, BELOW, to support that a troubling contradiction exists, vs. Plumlee's later claim of flying Rosselli to Garland in November, 1963.
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&relPageId=16&search=1968
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Plumlee1976A.jpg)

Lee, I am supporting why it is unreasonable to accept Plumlee's later
extraordinary claims....they were presented later, contradict his earlier
assertions, and so far, you've presented no independent supporting evidence
validating the later claims of Plumlee you have described and endorsed in
recent posts in this thread.
Tom I posted a link that quotes Plumlee's final unadulterated and corrected statement of the events of that day.  It is on a site that the Mary Ferrell site links to.

You apparently take Plumlee at his more recent word
because? (You haven't written how you justify believing Plumlee extraordinary claims.)

BTW, "mixed", since Plumlee more recent, extraordinary claims contradict
his earlier claims about when and where he last was in Rosselli's presence,
seems a more reasonable description than:

Quote
un?a?dul?ter?at?ed
ˌ
adjective
adjective: unadulterated
not mixed or diluted with any different or extra elements; complete and absolute.
"pure, unadulterated jealousy" synonyms:
pure, unalloyed, unsullied, untainted, virgin, untouched;
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 21, 2018, 05:38:36 PM
Yup....Plumlee in 1976 only admits to being in Rosselli's presence six months
before the JFK Assassination and not again until 1968 when he told Rosselli
he (Plumlee) did not remember him. Page 4 of the 1976 document is displayed
above, and I am displaying page 3, BELOW, to support that a troubling contradiction exists, vs. Plumlee's later claim of flying Rosselli to Garland in November, 1963.
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=70675&relPageId=16&search=1968
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Plumlee1976A.jpg)

Lee, I am supporting why it is unreasonable to accept Plumlee's later
extraordinary claims....they were presented later, contradict his earlier
assertions, and so far, you've presented no independent supporting evidence
validating the later claims of Plumlee you have described and endorsed in
recent posts in this thread.
You apparently take Plumlee at his more recent word
because? (You haven't written how you justify believing Plumlee extraordinary claims.)

BTW, "mixed", since Plumlee more recent, extraordinary claims contradict
his earlier claims about when and where he last was in Rosselli's presence,
seems a more reasonable description than:

Tom, the link I posted was Plumlee's account and in the introduction he explains that this should supersede any previous accounts attributed to him due to inaccuracies misquotes etc.  We know that a lot of people's testimony has been, ignored, altered and spun in this story.  There are also a lot of citations at the end f the account.

Personally I can't blame him rom saying he didn't recognise Rosselli in 1968 as if he had admitted that he did it would not have been good for his life expectancy.  Sounds like Roselli was testing him to me.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 22, 2018, 03:47:29 PM
Released file regarding the Sheraton Hotel in Dallas  Note how much is missing.

http://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32106450.pdf (http://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32106450.pdf)
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 22, 2018, 04:26:19 PM
Released file regarding the Sheraton Hotel in Dallas  Note how much is missing.

http://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32106450.pdf (http://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32106450.pdf)

Thanks Lee.  I wonder if Vegas got their slogan from them?
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 22, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
Thanks Lee.  I wonder if Vegas got their slogan from them?

Dan, looking at a map of Dallas the following is evident.

- South from Love Field and Parkland is in the general direction of DP and the Sheraton
- Redbird looks to be West of DP
- The Sheraton looks to be East of DP or slightly NE
- Parkland is approx. SW from Love Field
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 22, 2018, 06:02:28 PM
Thanks Lee.  I wonder if Vegas got their slogan from them?

What's interesting is that there were originally 10 pages but majority still hidden and on the right hand side of the routing page is annotated "Bill pls index to ZR as appropriate"  could this be Bill Harvey? 
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 22, 2018, 06:51:59 PM
Dan, looking at a map of Dallas the following is evident.

- South from Love Field and Parkland is in the general direction of DP and the Sheraton
- Redbird looks to be West of DP
- The Sheraton looks to be East of DP or slightly NE
- Parkland is approx. SW from Love Field

Thanks again for your input, Lee. 
The reason why I mentioned south at all is due to,
67's call to the Dispatcher at approx 12:45. 
He's relay was - Did they head south?  The answer - Yes.

In later renditions the phrase appears as - Do you want me to go south?
Notice the  - they - is missing and Redbird was indeed south of the greater Dallas area.
I remember searching it's whereabouts after Ray M. responded to one of my former posts.

To me - Did they head south? - was referring to suspects trying to escape
in a vehicle of some sort.

http://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mystery-of-red-bird-airport

Notice location of Red Bird in second paragraph - small private airfield in the south part of Dallas.

Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 23, 2018, 01:53:19 PM
Thanks again for your input, Lee. 
The reason why I mentioned south at all is due to,
67's call to the Dispatcher at approx 12:45. 
He's relay was - Did they head south?  The answer - Yes.

In later renditions the phrase appears as - Do you want me to go south?
Notice the  - they - is missing and Redbird was indeed south of the greater Dallas area.
I remember searching it's whereabouts after Ray M. responded to one of my former posts.

To me - Did they head south? - was referring to suspects trying to escape
in a vehicle of some sort.

http://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mystery-of-red-bird-airport

Notice location of Red Bird in second paragraph - small private airfield in the south part of Dallas.

Dan,

If suspects were fleeing DP they would have ben heading West I think?

Heading South could have been people travelling from either Love Field or Parkland to DP, DP, Sheriff's Office or even the Sheraton.

I would query if Redbird is South of Dallas as it seems o be in a suburb of South Dallas but due West of DP

I am going by the fact that the sniper's lair on the 6th Fl of the TSBD is termed the South East Corner.

So maybe the transcript quotes you refer to are relating to SS at Love Field and / or Parkland?  I would need to look again at the ID's of the relays and the SS assignments.  The assignments are likely to be more truthful than the transcripts due to Roger Warner,
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 23, 2018, 04:37:17 PM
Dan,

If suspects were fleeing DP they would have ben heading West I think?

Heading South could have been people travelling from either Love Field or Parkland to DP, DP, Sheriff's Office or even the Sheraton.

I would query if Redbird is South of Dallas as it seems o be in a suburb of South Dallas but due West of DP

I am going by the fact that the sniper's lair on the 6th Fl of the TSBD is termed the South East Corner.

So maybe the transcript quotes you refer to are relating to SS at Love Field and / or Parkland?  I would need to look again at the ID's of the relays and the SS assignments.  The assignments are likely to be more truthful than the transcripts due to Roger Warner,

Lee.  I think your focus is on, which direction the suspects were leaving the Plaza
and not which direction they were going about ten minutes later.  It should be remembered
that even Curry stated on film about a vehicle possibly being involved ... if I can find the clip
I'll present it here.

Btw ... And I'm only going by memory here.  Craig was there.  He raced somewhere first.  The railroad
yards?  He was coming back a few minutes later and as he was trying to cross the street he saw what
he did about the station wagon and the suspects.  After finally crossing the street he reported what he
saw to someone whom he thought was an SS man who took notes and then he entered the TSBD.
Later on in the investigation it was shown the agent who Craig told the info to was a wacko of some sort
who liked to pretend he was a cop in a suit.  I don't think so.  He was probably one of the reserve SS agents
Steve mentioned and with the help of a cop on the scene, he radioed in the call about the station wagon with suspects escaping.   

Btw a second time.  The timeline could fit to what I was saying.  From 12:30 or the time of the assassination, it took Craig about 11 to 14 minutes to enter the TSBD.  At the earliest, a bulletin
re the escaping station wagon could have been aired around 12:41.  Spotted.  Reported. 
Then, 67's relay at 12:45 -  Did they head south?  - Yes.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 23, 2018, 08:04:53 PM
505 Main Street is The Dallas County Criminal Court Building which is probably where everyone arrested and released was sent that day after screening / identification
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 23, 2018, 08:30:33 PM

Hey, Lee.  With what I'm presenting now, I have enough trouble trying
to stay afloat in the pool where I am.  That part of the pool which you're
suggesting scares me. 

Esp if -   Hey, we did it.  You can go home now fellas.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Lee Wotton on January 24, 2018, 12:40:06 PM
Hey, Lee.  With what I'm presenting now, I have enough trouble trying
to stay afloat in the pool where I am.  That part of the pool which you're
suggesting scares me. 

Esp if -   Hey, we did it.  You can go home now fellas.

Hi Dan,

Just chipping in when I get a bit of info relating to the transcripts whilst I take more time to try and decipher them but I fear Warner has manipulated them too much.

Also Matt and Emmit Hughes - There was a Emmett B Hughes who was a decorated army man......Maybe these two were screening the tramps and others arrested that day that didn't fit with the script and discretely let them go with no record.  Just like GHWB.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on January 24, 2018, 03:17:40 PM


Hey, Lee.  I guess the term chipper is a good way to describe CT's.
We are and we're not.  Not until something definitive shows up.
Title: Re: My theory documented for the last time. May the Files be with me.
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on May 21, 2021, 12:04:07 AM
Hey Chris Scally.  First of all,  I've very rarely met a new person to join this Forum who fit in as quickly as you did.  Secondly,
you're one Hell of a Researcher and everyone here appreciates that as well.  Believe me.  Welcome aboard.  Now, just to respond to your comment as registered in Dan 1's thread.  You stated there that SS Agent Warner's first Radio Traffic Relays
presentation in Dec 1963 was probably the weakest, as compared to the others which were released later on.  You also gave your reasons.  Well, I not only believe the first rendering had something to hide. I also believe the later versions did the same thing.  Hence the discrepancies.  One example.  If you look at Warner's version you will see he numbered each and every page from 1 to 83(?)  but one is out of sequence.  So?  Well, the next one which should followed the errant page had an arrest - other than Oswald's capture in the theater.  So where did this other arrest take place and how does it connect with the assassination?  Well, I put everything I could in this thread if you or anyone else is interested.