JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tom Dooley on January 15, 2018, 09:46:49 PM
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For those few who might not have heard of the theory:
Secret Service Agent Hickey may have accidentally discharged his AR-15, causing the fatal head wound.
I am a newbie here, and certainly not even close to being as informed as many of you here, but I have read several books on this subject, watched probably every bit of video on youtube, traveled to Dealey plaza myself a couple years ago and of all the theories out there, this one made the most sense to me personally, but few seem to believe it. So, for purely my own peace of mind:
I would love to hear any facts that might disprove this theory.
For obvious reasons, please refrain from any testimony from any secret service agent, or FBI agent, or CIA agent, but all else would be greatly appreciated.
I will add that there are a few things about it that bother me, but the most significant might be the third shell casing found on the 6th floor that had a dent in it, so as to be used for a "chamber plug" . So maybe that is a good place to start?
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For those few who might not have heard of the theory:
Secret Service Agent Hickey may have accidentally discharged his AR-15, causing the fatal head wound.
I am a newbie here, and certainly not even close to being as informed as many of you here, but I have read several books on this subject, watched probably every bit of video on youtube, traveled to Dealey plaza myself a couple years ago and of all the theories out there, this one made the most sense to me personally, but few seem to believe it. So, for purely my own peace of mind:
I would love to hear any facts that might disprove this theory.
For obvious reasons, please refrain from any testimony from any secret service agent, or FBI agent, or CIA agent, but all else would be greatly appreciated.
I will add that there are a few things about it that bother me, but the most significant might be the third shell casing found on the 6th floor that had a dent in it, so as to be used for a "chamber plug" . So maybe that is a good place to start?
I can tell you this. A film taken by Charles Bronson(not the actor) shows the Secret Service car at the moment of the fatal shot. There is no rifle in Hickey's hands.
The dented lip in one of the shell casings is nothing new. Other carcano's do the same thing. I fired a Carcano owned by Todd Vaughan, along with a group of other people, and every third shell that was ejected had a dented lip and the bullet from it hit its mark. I hope this helps.
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Yeah I've seen the Bronson footage but I don't get "proof" out of it from what I've see. If anything, it looks like what could be a rifle in the hands of someone in the folllow up car slightly before the head shot. There is a black line leaning forward at about a 45 degree angle in at least one of the frames I've seen anyway. It seems to appear to be pretty close to scale. If it is a rifle, Hickey misled the WC by saying/implying he didn't grab the rifle until just before the overpass. None of this is very conclusive, including his testimony, since he was, in fact very close to the overpass as far as he could tell possibly. He definitely stated that he didn't pick up the rifle until AFTER the head shot. If the frames in the Bronson film showing what looks to be a rifle to me are within about one second of the head shot, then of course, he lied. At any rate, as far as the film, I either found it more plausible than not that someone in that car might well be holding the rifle. If he didn't grab the rifle until the time he said, he sure wasn't very responsive to the shots that everyone else seemed to be hearing for a person who wasn't hung over. p.s. I know I broke my one stipulation about quoting agent's testimony, but I thought in this context it made sense.
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For those few who might not have heard of the theory:
Secret Service Agent Hickey may have accidentally discharged his AR-15, causing the fatal head wound.
I am a newbie here, and certainly not even close to being as informed as many of you here, but I have read several books on this subject, watched probably every bit of video on youtube, traveled to Dealey plaza myself a couple years ago and of all the theories out there, this one made the most sense to me personally, but few seem to believe it. So, for purely my own peace of mind:
I would love to hear any facts that might disprove this theory.
For obvious reasons, please refrain from any testimony from any secret service agent, or FBI agent, or CIA agent, but all else would be greatly appreciated.
I will add that there are a few things about it that bother me, but the most significant might be the third shell casing found on the 6th floor that had a dent in it, so as to be used for a "chamber plug" . So maybe that is a good place to start?
SteveB is right about the dent thing. Google Chad Zimmerman dent* in regards that.
BTW, good sources re these Carcano matters are online gun nuts, plenty of whom have those Oswald-type weapons and will usually report differing results than what CTers claim hereabouts.
I've not been to Dealey Plaza. I hear from visitors that the plaza is much smaller than they imagined, (and that Kennedy was pretty much a 'sitting duck') Did you get that idea about the place?
*CE 543: Quite Possibly the Most Understood Dent
Chad R. Zimmerman
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I will look into the dent on the casing using your information. Thank you for that. As far as Dealey Plaza, I had what I thought was a pretty good sense of the scale of the place from the countless hours of photos and videos I had seen. But then I would hear certain documentaries and other people saying how small the place was so I had expected to be surprised by the compactness of the Plaza. However, after I got there the whole place seemed exactly to size of what I had in my head. I will say the picket fence seemed closer than the photos that had been examined by Gary Mack and others that showed 'Dog Man'. That experience kind of indicated to me that anyone standing up there with their head above the fence would have been seen much clearer than the 'dog man' proposal. That said, and having done a fair amount of hunting myself, I think that 2 or 3 shots from the sixth floor would have to require a great amount of luck to hit a moving target. It is not an easy shot even with a 4x magnification scope. I have never seen, held, nor fired a Carcano but from most peoples opinion, it is a pretty lousy weapon. To Steve Barber: How did you find the accuracy/repeatability of the Carcano when you fired it?? Also, were the dents caused by the ejection action ?? Thanks again.
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(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/zfilm/firstshot/willis-bretzner-labelled.jpg)
Above: Hickey sat on top of the "Queen Mary's" back seat.
(https://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/8/1/8281037/1404444377.jpg)
Above: Hickey still seated (and now looking backward) in the Altgens photo, taken at Z255, about three seconds before the head shot.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/bronson_254_083013.jpg)
About the time of the head shot, Bennett (whom I believe the arrow points to) and Hickey are both seated.
(https://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/8/1/8281037/8617576_orig.jpg)
Above: The black line that could be Agent Hickey's AR-15 rifle raised up.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/BRONSON.gif)
Above: Bennett and Hickey remain seated all though the head shot sequence.
(https://buelahman.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/jfk-2.jpg)
Above: How high up Hickey would have to be standing to clear the windshield (plus a little more to allow for the Queen Mary's raised sun visor??). Some have claimed that this frame shows Hickey was standing, but the taller figure is one of the two women standing on the curb.
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If in Zapruder's film the lady in orange (looks red here) is in line with JFK then this is Z296.
If the lady with white shoes is in line with JFK then this is Z309.
It has been said that it is Z313, ie the time of the fatal headshot, i dont agree.
It depends on exactly where Zapruder is standing.
Hickey is holding the AR15 well up, but is still seated (high up on some cases on the back seat).
At Z313 Hickey will stand up a little, & jerk forward because the QM brakes suddenly, accidentally firing.
He has 4 or perhaps 17 frames ie 0.2 sec or perhaps 1.0 sec to do the dirty deed.
I reckon that its possible.
If my idea of where Zapruder is standing is badly out & if the scene is actually at say Z322 then that would have given Hickey 9 frames or 0.5 sec to sit down after the shot, or fall down more likely. That would work too.
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The Bronson photos are chilling. They show just how close the Secret Service car was to the back of Kennedys limo. They are practically right on top of him.
I wouldn't fault Clint Hill though for not making it there in time. Trying to jump running off a car that is travelling perhaps 8mph is very difficult to do. Alot of people would have fallen.
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(https://images2.imgbox.com/d8/bd/WPW0ysW5_o.jpg)
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For those few who might not have heard of the theory:
Secret Service Agent Hickey may have accidentally discharged his AR-15, causing the fatal head wound.
I am a newbie here, and certainly not even close to being as informed as many of you here, but I have read several books on this subject, watched probably every bit of video on youtube, traveled to Dealey plaza myself a couple years ago and of all the theories out there, this one made the most sense to me personally, but few seem to believe it. So, for purely my own peace of mind:
I would love to hear any facts that might disprove this theory.
For obvious reasons, please refrain from any testimony from any secret service agent, or FBI agent, or CIA agent, but all else would be greatly appreciated.
I will add that there are a few things about it that bother me, but the most significant might be the third shell casing found on the 6th floor that had a dent in it, so as to be used for a "chamber plug" . So maybe that is a good place to start?
Obviously, if Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head this would have happened in front of the crowds of people stood a few feet away. The noise would have been very loud. The SS follow up car was very close to the limo so many people would have had a perfect view of the whole thing. Not one person in the crowd, stood only a few feet away, reported seeing Hickey shoot JFK in the head. Hickey would have been stood up really high, he would have been very noticeable. The AR-15 is a big gun, dozens of people would have had a very clear view of it pointing at JFK as the vehicles passed by and, as I say, the noise would have been really loud.
Dozens of people, stood only a few feet away, would have witnessed this incident.
But none did.
Because it never happened.
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Obviously, if Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head this would have happened in front of the crowds of people stood a few feet away. The noise would have been very loud. The SS follow up car was very close to the limo so many people would have had a perfect view of the whole thing. Not one person in the crowd, stood only a few feet away, reported seeing Hickey shoot JFK in the head. Hickey would have been stood up really high, he would have been very noticeable. The AR-15 is a big gun, dozens of people would have had a very clear view of it pointing at JFK as the vehicles passed by and, as I say, the noise would have been really loud.
Dozens of people, stood only a few feet away, would have witnessed this incident.
But none did.
Because it never happened.
We know that it happened. We have proof. JFK died.
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We know that it happened. We have proof. JFK died.
JFK died, but that doesn't mean that Hickey shot him.
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JFK died, but that doesn't mean that Hickey shot him.
The remaining questions that i have re Hickey's shot are.........
did it make the hole in the glass windscreen, &
did it make the dents in the windscreen frame, &
did it injure Tague.
I will have a look throo old threads, but i doubt that these will be resolved to my satisfaction.
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The remaining questions that i have re Hickey's shot are.........
did it make the hole in the glass windscreen, &
did it make the dents in the windscreen frame, &
did it injure Tague.
I will have a look throo old threads, but i doubt that these will be resolved to my satisfaction.
I could save you a lot of time and frustration..... Hickey DID NOT shoot JFK...... But knock yourself out, and examine this aspect with open eyes.
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I could save you a lot of time and frustration..... Hickey DID NOT shoot JFK...... But knock yourself out, and examine this aspect with open eyes.
Further to my reply #6. I agree that the Bronson freeze frame 09/52 showing Hickey holding the AR15 up at 45deg was at Z313. But in another thread Kenneth S Weissman has explained that the 2017 copies of the Bronson film have artifacts (& are very blurry). Ken wrote a report that included a much superior 2019 copy of 09/52 which showed that the AR15 sticking up at 45deg in the 2017 copy is 100% artifact (ie due to digital compression). The 6th Floor Museum wont allow the public access to the 2019 copy. Ken had to destroy his copy after he had finished his report.
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Further to my reply #6. I now reckon that the Bronson freeze frame showing Hickey holding the AR15 up at 45deg was at least 9 frames ie 0.5 sec before Z313, which gives Hickey just enuff time to stand up a little & then fire as the QM brakes. That braking is critical. Not only does the jerk cause the shot, but it adds frames & time for Hickey to begin to stand. I estimate that the Bronson freeze frame is 10ft before Z313, but the slowing & almost stopping adds frames & time, hell it could give much more than 9 frames & 0.5 sec. It depends on where Zapruder was standing. We know that at Z313 Zapruder was at exactly 90deg to JFK's limo, & that 90deg line passed along the glass divider that is located in front of Connally, in which case JFK was say 6ft to the rear of the 90deg line when Z313 happened. If Zapruder was standing on the extreme eastern end of the white concrete pedestal or whatever it is that we can see in Bronson then the 90deg line passes throo the front of the limo in Bronson at about the windshield, which means the limo has say 10ft to go before it & JFK are at exactly Z313. But Hickey deniers reckon that Bronson is exactly Z313 -- nope.
"Hickey deniers" ;D
How do you explain that no-one saw Hickey shoot the President when it was done in front of dozens of witnesses stood only a few feet away?
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"Hickey deniers" ;D
How do you explain that no-one saw Hickey shoot the President when it was done in front of dozens of witnesses stood only a few feet away?
There were lots of witnesses who saw Hickey or someone with guns or shooting & standing & falling etc etc. Its well covered in the articles & footage that i have been reading this week in this forum. And i suspect that the Agents concerned have naturally watered down what they heard & saw & knew. But i need to find out more about the bullet hole in the windshield. There is a microscopic chance that Oswald fired his 3rd shot at the same time as Hickey, if Oswald did indeed fire 3 shots. But on Oswald's angle if that shot went throo the windshield then it would have hit the limo's bonnet-hood. Still thinking & reading.
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There were lots of witnesses who saw Hickey or someone with guns or shooting & standing & falling etc etc. Its well covered in the articles & footage that i have been reading this week in this forum. And i suspect that the Agents concerned have naturally watered down what they heard & saw & knew. But i need to find out more about the bullet hole in the windshield. There is a microscopic chance that Oswald fired his 3rd shot at the same time as Hickey, if Oswald did indeed fire 3 shots. But on Oswald's angle if that shot went throo the windshield then it would have hit the limo's bonnet-hood. Still thinking & reading.
Name one witness who saw Hickey shoot JFK
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Name one witness who saw Hickey shoot JFK
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2162.msg59599.html#msg59599
Reply #66 links to a 44:44 short free version of the longer footage.
Reply #61 mentions 11 witnesses.
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2162.msg59599.html#msg59599
Reply #66 links to a 44:44 short free version of the longer footage.
Reply #61 mentions 11 witnesses.
Yeah Marjan,
everyone knows Hickey picked the AR-15 up.
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking you to give the name of any witness who saw Hickey shoot JFK
What you think happened must have taken place in front of dozens of witnesses.
So name one who saw Hickey actually shoot JFK.
If you can't find one you must start to ask yourself some serious questions
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Yeah Marjan,
everyone knows Hickey picked the AR-15 up.
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking you to give the name of any witness who saw Hickey shoot JFK
What you think happened must have taken place in front of dozens of witnesses.
So name one who saw Hickey actually shoot JFK.
If you can't find one you must start to ask yourself some serious questions
Nope, i am happy with Hickey killing JFK, especially koz of the gunsmoke witnesses (some saw smoke)(many smelled smoke).
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Yeah Marjan,
everyone knows Hickey picked the AR-15 up.
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking you to give the name of any witness who saw Hickey shoot JFK
What you think happened must have taken place in front of dozens of witnesses.
So name one who saw Hickey actually shoot JFK.
If you can't find one you must start to ask yourself some serious questions
Can you remember when you first saw the Zapruder film, Mr O'Meara? Were you doing anything other than focusing on JFK & the limo? Because the eye witnesses only got to see this thing one time. And it all happened so fast.
The gunsmoke smell is not easily explained away IMO.
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Can you remember when you first saw the Zapruder film, Mr O'Meara? Were you doing anything other than focusing on JFK & the limo? Because the eye witnesses only got to see this thing one time. And it all happened so fast.
The gunsmoke smell is not easily explained away IMO.
I can't remember the first time I saw the Z-film Alan but i do know this, if, while I was watching it, somebody shot someone else in the head with a really powerful firearm just a few feet away from me I would have noticed it.
I honestly can't believe the stupidity of the point you're making.
I'mgoing to pretend you've just got a weird sense of humour.
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I can't remember the first time I saw the Z-film Alan but i do know this, if, while I was watching it, somebody shot someone else in the head with a really powerful firearm just a few feet away from me I would have noticed it.
I honestly can't believe the stupidity of the point you're making.
I'mgoing to pretend you've just got a weird sense of humour.
How many witnesses in the street noticed Agent Hickey lifting the weapon?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d8/bd/WPW0ysW5_o.jpg)
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Special Agent Winston Lawson, 12/1/63:
As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.
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Special Agent Winston Lawson, 12/1/63:
As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.
Hickey takes out the AR-15 after the third shot, Lawson looks round after the third shot, sees the limo and the follow-up car coming towards him. Hickey has the AR-15 raised.
What's the problem?
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How many witnesses in the street noticed Agent Hickey lifting the weapon?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d8/bd/WPW0ysW5_o.jpg)
Go to this page and scroll down to near the bottom. You'll find the title "Debunking Donahue".
This should clear things up Thumb1:
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5b%3Aprimarypieces
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Go to this page and scroll down to near the bottom. You'll find the title "Debunking Donahue".
This should clear things up Thumb1:
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5b%3Aprimarypieces
Yesterday i satisfied myself that................................
(1) Tague was hit directly by a fragment that went under the rollbar & tween the vizors & over the windshield. The only question being whether that line passes throo Tague's left cheek (which i think it does).[edit][tague was hit by a fragment of a slug from one of 3 or 4 shots fired by Hickey].
(2) The mainly copper fragments found in the limo CE567 & CE569 made the dent & the cracks & were both from Hickey's AR15. [edit][the dent was made by a whole slug from one of 3 or 4 shots fired by Hickey].
(3) The fragments-shrapnel that hit JFK from Oswald's first shot (of his two shots) & ricocheted off the collar-rods-pipe of the signal arm (a) hit JFK on the back of his head & (b) are in the X-rays (up to then i thort that it had been CE567 or CE569 that glanced JFK's head).
(4) There was no missing bullet or missing fragment from Hickey's shot, except of course for the fragments-shrapnel-dust that must have been in the missing bit of brain & the bits that landed outside the limo (including what hit Tague). [edit][Hickey fired 3 or 4 shots][some lead fragments in the limo might have been from these shots][otherwise we dont know of any other fragments or the 3 or 4 empty casings].
(5) And i answered your query in #14. I reckoned that the Bronson freeze frame is too early -- Hickey had 10 frames to stand up a little & shoot JFK in Z312-313.
(6) And today i can add that the drawing in your linked article is silly. It shows Hickey having to stand up with the AR15 under his left armpit. It could easily have drawn him sitting & holding the AR15 on top of his head. Nope, Hickey didnt have to take very long to stand upish, bearing in mind that he was half standing already by sitting on top of some cases placed for some reason on the seat. And in QM the 2 vizors are a mile apart, plenty of space for the shot without having to go up over the large vizors. [edit][i debunked the debunking in another thread].
Yes yesterday was a good day, like all of the others, & i am not sure what to look into today, there is the question of what was Oswald's plan, eg a safe house, or pull a robbery for cash & get to Mexico & then Cuba. But Dealey Plaza has almost zero mystery to me now.
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Yesterday i satisfied myself that................................
(1) Tague was hit directly by a fragment that went under the rollbar & tween the vizors & over the windshield. The only question being whether that line passes throo Tague's left cheek (which i think it does).
(2) The mainly copper fragments found in the limo CE357 & CE359 made the dent & the cracks & were both from Hickey's AR15.
(3) The fragments-shrapnel that hit JFK from Oswald's first shot (of his two shots) & ricocheted off the collar-rods-pipe of the signal arm (a) hit JFK on the back of his head & (b) are in the X-rays (up to then i thort that it had been CE357 or CE359 that glanced JFK's head).
(4) There was no missing bullet or missing fragment from Hickey's shot, except of course for the fragments-shrapnel-dust that must have been in the missing bit of brain & the bits that landed outside the limo (including what hit Tague).
(5) And i answered your query in #14. I reckoned that the Bronson freeze frame is too early -- Hickey had 10 frames to stand up a little & shoot JFK in Z312-313.
(6) And today i can add that the drawing in your linked article is silly. It shows Hickey having to stand up with the AR15 under his left armpit. It could easily have drawn him sitting & holding the AR15 on top of his head. Nope, Hickey didnt have to take very long to stand upish, bearing in mind that he was half standing already by sitting on top of some cases placed for some reason on the seat. And in QM the 2 vizors are a mile apart, plenty of space for the shot without having to go up over the large vizors.
Yes yesterday was a good day, like all of the others, & i am not sure what to look into today, there is the question of what was Oswald's plan, eg a safe house, or pull a robbery for cash & get to Mexico & then Cuba. But Dealey Plaza has almost zero mystery to me now.
Mr Oswald was nowhere near the sixth floor when JFK was shot.
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Mr Oswald was nowhere near the sixth floor when JFK was shot.
I think that there is no good evidence that shots came from somewhere other than 6th floor window (other than Hickey's shot) or that Oswald was not the sniper (alltho there is that negative gunpowder test).
There is a microscopic probability that Oswald fired a shot-3 at the same time as Hickey's shot, but i reckon not, but if he did fire a shot-3 then it missed everything, unless it hit the curb near Tague.
Nah, about 99.9% of witness statements are i reckon baloney. But today i have been looking into witnesses in Houston St at Z313. Mrs Cabell makes some sense. And one other is ok. The rest are baloney. Still looking.
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No
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No
:D :D :D
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I can't remember the first time I saw the Z-film Alan but i do know this, if, while I was watching it, somebody shot someone else in the head with a really powerful firearm just a few feet away from me I would have noticed it.
I honestly can't believe the stupidity of the point you're making.
I'mgoing to pretend you've just got a weird sense of humour.
Mr Marginal,.... I'm going to pretend you've just got a weird sense of reality.
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There were lots of witnesses who saw Hickey or someone with guns or shooting & standing & falling etc etc. Its well covered in the articles & footage that i have been reading this week in this forum. And i suspect that the Agents concerned have naturally watered down what they heard & saw & knew. But i need to find out more about the bullet hole in the windshield. There is a microscopic chance that Oswald fired his 3rd shot at the same time as Hickey, if Oswald did indeed fire 3 shots. But on Oswald's angle if that shot went throo the windshield then it would have hit the limo's bonnet-hood. Still thinking & reading.
Point out where a witness saw anyone (other than Euins & Brennan) even just aiming toward the kill zone.
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Point out someone other than Euins and Brennan so much as even just aiming guns in the direction of the kill zone.
Umbrella Man?
Was it really an umbrella?
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Point out where a witness saw anyone (other than Euins & Brennan) even just aiming toward the kill zone.
Brennan & say 5 others saw a rifle in or sticking out of the SN (sniper's nest) before or during or after.
Say 10 witnesses saw Hickey or someone holding the AR15 or something at about Z313 or soon after.
But today i am hoping to have a close look at Bronson's footage, this is the only known footage that shows Hickey at Z313, but is very blurry.
Gordon Arnold's footage has disappeared, & Beverley Oliver's footage, because they showed Hickey.
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Umbrella Man?
Was it really an umbrella?
That's nothing to do with my ask. Lets leave aside the knoll foliage, trees, branches and blobs of pixels disguised as shooters for the lunatic fringe to rehash as they try to protect the little prick who did all the shootin' that day.
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Brennan & say 5 others saw a rifle in or sticking out of the SN (sniper's nest) before or during or after.
Say 10 witnesses saw Hickey or someone holding the AR15 or something at about Z313 or soon after.
But today i am hoping to have a close look at Bronson's footage, this is the only known footage that shows Hickey at Z313, but is very blurry.
Gordon Arnold's footage has disappeared, & Beverley Oliver's footage, because they showed Hickey.
A few years ago I studied screenshots of the Bronson film (the long shot where a guy is falling backwards with a long thin object pointing up. But it was suggested to me that the line was just a artifact or something. I had blown it up somewhat and it was quite grainy. I have files of those screenshots somewhere.
But that close with an AR-15? He would have surely really lost (his) face.
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Brennan & say 5 others saw a rifle in or sticking out of the SN (sniper's nest) before or during or after.
Say 10 witnesses saw Hickey or someone holding the AR15 or something at about Z313 or soon after.
But today i am hoping to have a close look at Bronson's footage, this is the only known footage that shows Hickey at Z313, but is very blurry.
Gordon Arnold's footage has disappeared, & Beverley Oliver's footage, because they showed Hickey.
Brennan & say 5 others saw a rifle in or sticking out of the SN (sniper's nest) before or during or after.
Howard Brennan said that he saw a man STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window....
That window behind which Brennan saw the STANDING man could NOT have been the SE corner window ( The imaginary "Sniper's Nest" _ Because it would have been impossible for a man to perform the act of STANDING and aiming a rifle out of that window...The window was NOT open far enough ....
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A few years ago I studied screenshots of the Bronson film (the long shot where a guy is falling backwards with a long thin object pointing up. But it was suggested to me that the line was just a artifact or something. I had blown it up somewhat and it was quite grainy. I have files of those screenshots somewhere.
But that close with an AR-15? He would have surely really lost (his) face.
I can see a say AR15 in every frame.
I have goodish individual pix of each frame i think (probly same as yours).
It blurry, & we have 4 adults standing on the north side, plus the 2 agents standing on that running board, & we have 3 adults standing on the south side, plus 1 agent standing on that running board, so thats 10 adults standing somewhat eclipsing the 6 occupants (including Hickey sitting hi up on cases on leftside of rear seat).
But i will get there eventually.
I worked out that the freeze frame touted to be at the same time as Z313 is actually at Z319, & then i found that Dan Roffe says Z319 also. Thats a good start. Still thinking.
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Brennan & say 5 others saw a rifle in or sticking out of the SN (sniper's nest) before or during or after.
Howard Brennan said that he saw a man STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window....
That window behind which Brennan saw the STANDING man could NOT have been the SE corner window ( The imaginary "Sniper's Nest" _ Because it would have been impossible for a man to perform the act of STANDING and aiming a rifle out of that window...The window was NOT open far enough ....
I reckon that Oswald would have to stand to aim at JFK while JFK was near the signals for the first shot which ricocheted off the say 2 inch pipe arm, some fragments hitting JFK on the back of the head (as shown in Xrays), the copper & larger fragments hitting the road. And that downwards angle would have been say 60ft vertical & more than 60ft horizontal, no problems re the open window.
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I reckon that Oswald would have to stand to aim at JFK while JFK was near the signals for the first shot which ricocheted off the say 2 inch pipe arm, some fragments hitting JFK on the back of the head (as shown in Xrays), the copper & larger fragments hitting the road. And that downwards angle would have been say 60ft vertical & more than 60ft horizontal, no problems re the open window.
A man standing and trying to fire a rifle down onto Elm street from that window would have fired into the cement ledge beneath the window.
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A man standing and trying to fire a rifle down onto Elm street from that window would have fired into the cement ledge beneath the window.
#14 #17 show no problems.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2090.10.html
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A few years ago I studied screenshots of the Bronson film (the long shot where a guy is falling backwards with a long thin object pointing up. But it was suggested to me that the line was just a artifact or something. I had blown it up somewhat and it was quite grainy. I have files of those screenshots somewhere.
But that close with an AR-15? He would have surely really lost (his) face.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ2fbjnp/Hickey-bronson.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5wjJxYS/Hickey-bronson-close.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The "AR-15" is the back of Bennet's head.
[images lifted from patspeer.com] - "Debunking Donahue"
If you look at the Bronson film using certain "classified" filters you can see a cuckoo holding an AK-47 spring out of Ernie Brandt's hat.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ2fbjnp/Hickey-bronson.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5wjJxYS/Hickey-bronson-close.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The "AR-15" is the back of Bennet's head.
[images lifted from patspeer.com] - "Debunking Donahue"
If you look at the Bronson film using certain "classified" filters you can see a cuckoo holding an AK-47 spring out of Ernie Brandt's hat.
No Hickey is higher (sitting on some cases) & back further (having just fallen backwards due to QM acceleration probly). The lower figure is Bennett leaning forward. This is at Z319 which is 6 or 7 frames after Z313 or Z312 at which time Hickey was half standing & fired due to jerk of braking or acceleration. 6 frames is 1/3rd of a second, enuff time to fall back to where he is at Z319. Thanku linesmen&women thank u ballboysngirls.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ2fbjnp/Hickey-bronson.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5wjJxYS/Hickey-bronson-close.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The "AR-15" is the back of Bennet's head.
[images lifted from patspeer.com] - "Debunking Donahue"
If you look at the Bronson film using certain "classified" filters you can see a cuckoo holding an AK-47 spring out of Ernie Brandt's hat.
I can't vouch for your images. I remember mine with a definite line pointing skywards, and somewhat less blurry. And do tell us what a 'classified filter' might be.
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The "straight line" is apparently a pole.
This is the frame taken from the Bronson film at the time of the headshot. Hickey (beneath the arrow in the bottom image) appears (to me) to be still sitting down.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/bronson_254_083013.jpg)
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The "straight line" is apparently a pole.
This is the frame taken from the Bronson film at the time of the headshot. Hickey (beneath the arrow in the bottom image) appears (to me) to be still sitting down.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/bronson_254_083013.jpg)
I can't vouch for your images. In mine, the line that might be a rifle was cut off at about the length of a rifle, not full vertical but closer to vertical than horizontal. And that's the impression I had or I wouldn't have pursued this in the first place.
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I can't vouch for your images. In mine, the line that might be a rifle was cut off at about the length of a rifle, not full vertical but closer to vertical than horizontal. And that's the impression I had or I wouldn't have pursued this in the first place.
Okay, you're looking at a different line. One that appears to be immediately behind him, I think? I was thinking of the longer line to the left.
In any case, Hickey said he picked the rifle up from the floor.
From his account: "At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear. At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital."
Here he is with it raised (but not turned to the rear at all) as they leave the underpass:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fWTSlinXs4EQ_rGldOqnzuCfspxf9PpgwvSR4huY_x2K2SYRLw5IdJXifMFYa58GXbgKRRDvRjfo0y0l5yGJveCuaKLe1VfARjPZ70rZ4oiRBkE7fZ3F1DyaygeU1TIZvOaQxoEJ0lOeC9blYqKeVHV7EZIA3Rkz-oaJ5k5xYvkO6E2RRLSvkUPu-Q3ga3muk4jfQddvsE2mlMNx763SJZLulCWRO8Zi-ZqGl7xrXE3e8yxSdpyMvuePz6JWB_5iijXDYGdZt9bSKSRhXanzgBITpeN5YYBGp2mDJ5toyPovK35aiyOsvSsnz6j8uXpyQqYjVFUHdta8RkTKvQkmGW0HcrwZPaDoTS_WH11O-_n_BrEhgYGpruBYHGS_1rKYfmKG4Ep_mP-f8B5NxhHulok7jY1UEhEx4f4Fa1wmQ0gzliIn8fSd6D-B4YO2vbI20gruhXAUiL9nBQ1FzuGwyAulJVBsAR4hnGTgg4vayxde9zQAG_DQhACv2X_1MLG4ikGDJ92JRB9TsrEbqau9au8psysxJ5QUVPajbqYyPux0-ab7VQpopTptmYWNNwg4oMMBbS2vpqqf11lAbKlQmHFf_lGI-hyHjoGniVreOoC6mkawDogzcASxfkgtWZ-DyTru8iwXkv3ZM0UUNpkEudvYGFdJMrHIVZquwKHa8liXKzBt3jyWDJPBfelYQw=w522-h234-no?authuser=0)
Whatever the case it looks to me that he's not standing up at the time of the head shot.
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I can't vouch for your images.
You don't need to. The image speaks for itself.
I remember mine with a definite line pointing skywards, and somewhat less blurry.
it would be helpful to have the image.
And do tell us what a 'classified filter' might be.
;D
I like that you accept the cuckoo with the AK-47 but not the 'classified filter'.
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The Bronson frame is not the time of the headshot, it is at about Z319, which has been pointed out at least twice, once by me, & once by Dan Roffe (book JFK MOTORCADE).
In the Bronson frame the AR15 is not behind Hickey's head, it is in front of Hickey's head. That there lower head is Bennett, or there is a slim chance that it is Hickey's bare hand (not likely).
I might have a closer look at other Bronson frames, but offhand i can see an AR15 in lots of them.
Did u notice Tague in that black & white photo?
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The Bronson frame in my post was taken at the equivalent of Z313. Even if, for the sake of the discussion, it was taken at Z319 it shows pretty convincingly (to me) that Hickey is still seated. Did Hickey stand up, accidentally shoot JFK and then sit down about 1/3 of a second later?
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/bronson_254_083013.jpg)
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You don't need to. The image speaks for itself.
it would be helpful to have the image.
;D
I like that you accept the cuckoo with the AK-47 but not the 'classified filter'.
The cuckoo was in his nest with the Carcano
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The Hickey did it theory was conjured up and developed by Howard Donahue, and publicized by Bonar Menninger in Mortal Error.
Within Mortal Error they acknowledged Hickey could not have shot JFK while sitting down, as the road was on a slope and the bullet would have to have passed through the Queen Mary's windshield.
So they proposed Hickey tried to stand up on the back seat, and slipped. They even presented a schematic drawing showing Hickey's position at the time he slipped, and how this would allow the bullet to get over the Queen Mary's windshield.
A few years back I super-imposed their drawing onto the head-shot frame from the Bronson film.
(https://sites.google.com/a/patspeer.com/www2/_/rsrc/1588015837254/chapter5b%3Aprimarypieces/Screen%20Shot%202020-04-27%20at%2011.42.16%20AM.png)
(If you put your curser on the image, you can use your arrows to scroll to the right and see the overlay of Hickey in the car.)
As you can see, Hickey was not standing at the time of the head-shot, and there was no way for him to fire a bullet over the windshield.
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And there you have it. Hang down your head, Tom Dooley.
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The Hickey did it theory was conjured up and developed by Howard Donahue, and publicized by Bonar Menninger in Mortal Error.
Within Mortal Error they acknowledged Hickey could not have shot JFK while sitting down, as the road was on a slope and the bullet would have to have passed through the Queen Mary's windshield.
So they proposed Hickey tried to stand up on the back seat, and slipped. They even presented a schematic drawing showing Hickey's position at the time he slipped, and how this would allow the bullet to get over the Queen Mary's windshield.
A few years back I super-imposed their drawing onto the head-shot frame from the Bronson film.
(If you put your curser on the image, you can use your arrows to scroll to the right and see the overlay of Hickey in the car.)
As you can see, Hickey was not standing at the time of the head-shot, and there was no way for him to fire a bullet over the windshield.
Nope. The slope of the road had nothing to do with it. A level road would not have made any difference.
Nope. The bullet didnt have to clear the windshield by 6", a 1/4"was enuff.
Nope. Hickey didnt have to stand up much, he was sitting up on cases (AR15 ammo & stuff), ie half standing.
Nope. Hickey didnt have to hold the AR15 under his armpit.
Nope. Hickey didnt have to slip. A jerk of the Queen Mary was enough (braking probably).
Also a braking jerk would raise the back of the QM, whilst dropping the front, helping the needed vertical angle.
Nope. It wouldnt take long for Hickey to rise & jerk & then fall back (a small fraction of a second would do the trick).
And Bronson's fps is much slower than Zapruder's.
Nope. Tonnes of evidence confirms that Hickey killed JFK (Xrays)(smell of cordite)(visual witnesses)(hearing witnesses)(other)(more other)(& then some more).
Bronson's footage smells fishy. The other day i did some quick measurements & i notice that his footage suggests that the QM moved 6" then 6" then 6" in the first three frames that looked at, & then 18" in the next frame. I will have to go back & have a closer look.
Arnold's footage has never been seen. Oliver's footage has never been seen. But they allowed Bronson's footage to see the light of day, because (in addition to being very blurry)(with up to 10 standing adults eclipsing the QM or Hickey during the critical time)(u cant even see the QM properly to check position or speed)(standing adults block the front the back & in between) luckily for the feds the footage stepped over the landmine, or perhaps the feds got rid of one or two frames first.
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Game over. Hickey shot JFK.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/thumbnails.php?album=15
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/thumbnails.php?album=7&page=50
As Benny Hill once said about a gifted cake, that it was just right, because if it were any worse he couldn’t have eaten it, & if it were any better he wouldn’t have got it. Likewise if the Bronson footage were any worse it would be useless, & if it were any better it would have been destroyed.
We were lucky that Bronson used his wide angle lens by mistake, instead of his good lens. Had he used his good lens then he would have filled his frame with JFK's limo & we would have seen the front of Queen Mary, like in the half useless Zapruder & Nix etc footages.
But i fear that up to 6 Bronson frames have been removed, or praps it was a 3rd rate camera. In any case an accurate analysis needs that info.
And perhaps the other 15 frames were sabotaged. For some reason Hickey is very blurry or hard to see.
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I am visiting some threads that mention that Agent Hickey accidentally killed JFK.
Refutations that Hickey did it mainly employ a frame of the Bronson film that appears to show Hickey holding his AR15 at a 45deg upwards angle at the time of the shot, ie at Zapruder Z313. The rationale being that the AR15 had to be held at say minus 5deg to (accidentally) aim at JFK's head over the windshield of Queen Mary, & 45deg upwards would miss JFK's head by a mile.
There are some problems with thems refutations.
(1) The timing of the Bronson frames relative to Z313 is uncertain. I & Dan Roffe say that Bronson B09 is at Z319 not Z313.
(2) Some of Bronson's frame to frame time gaps are equivalent to say 5 Zapruder gaps. Many Bronson gaps are equivalent to say 2 Zapruder frames (despite Bronson being 12 fps & Zapruder 18 fps).
(3) The time needed to (accidentally) swing an AR15 downwards from 45deg up to 5 deg down need not take more than say 2 Zapruder frames.
(4) The time to (accidentally) swing upwards from 5deg down to 45deg up need not take more than say 1 Zapruder frame, if the upswing is helped by the natural recoil.
(5) Kenneth S Weissman says that the 2019 copies of the Bronson film frames are superior to the 2017 copies (which are very blurry & have artifacts). Frame B09/52(2017) is usually the frame employed by refutationalists (Robin Unger's gallery shows the 2017 frames). Weissman says that B09(2019) does not show that there (45deg) rifle. However i definitely see a blurry AR15 at 45deg (see Weissman's pix below).
https://topekatornado.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/the-Bronson-Kennedy-assasination-film-investigation-Report.v2.1.pdf
(6) The 6th Floor Museum keep the 2019 frames locked away. They allowed Weissman limited access. The 6th Floor Museum are well aware that anti-Hickey refutationists employ the inferior 2017 frames. The 6th Floor Museum are of course the Chief anti-Hickeyians, today they continue to preach that their 2017 frames deny that Hickey shot JFK, while secretly believing that their 2019 frames do not.
(7) The 6th Floor Museum's fear is not limited to the loss of their holy 2017 refutation canon, they dread that the 2019 frames support Hickeyianity. We will never see the 2019 frames in Robin Unger's Gallery.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51067331326_473c2e6cd3_m.jpg)
From Weissman's Report : Bronson B09/52(2017) is on the left : Bronson B09(2019) is on the right.
I reckon that B09(2019) shows a blurry AR15 at 45deg, blurry partly because it is swinging swiftly (upwards), the fatal shot being a fraction of a second earlier.
Hence B09(2019) does not absolve Hickeyians from finding an explanation, Hickeyians have to use the same explanation that was needed for B09/52(2017). But B09(2019) has provided new ammunition for Hickeyians, the AR15 is blurry because it is swinging fastly up, having already done the dirty deed. Luckily enuff the ugly artifact in B09/52(2017) has nicely magnified the true existence of the AR15, otherwise we might have missed seeing the swiftly swinging AR15 in B09(2019).
Actually it is Weissman that called it an artifact, but it aint. It does however magnify the dark shape of the swiftly swinging (upwards) AR15.
The dark bit on the end might be an artifact, a blob. This is where the skinny steel sticks out beyond the wood. This kind of blob is like many others seen on the grass nearby in B09/52(2017). This might be an attack of the blobs, or it might not.
And while we are digesting all of that we can dwell on the fact that the 2017 frames show that Hickey lied. Hickey testified that he didnt grab the AR15 from the floor untill after the last shot, well after, near the underpass (at about Z480 i suppose). I can see the AR15 in a few 2017 frames, & i expect that the 2019 frames will show the same, only better. But The 6th Floor Museum wont tell visitors any of that (hey everyone, look over there, look at the nice big photos of the assassin).
It was rotten luck, he was just doing his job.
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Nope. Tonnes of evidence confirms that Hickey killed JFK (Xrays)(smell of cordite)(visual witnesses)(hearing witnesses)(other)(more other)(& then some more).
Just wondering as to what constitutes the 'tonnes of evidence' which confirms that Hickey killed JFK
I'm also really curious as to what the xrays are supposed to tell us of Hickeys' guilt for killing JFK, or even the smell of cordite for that matter?
Also curious as to the '(visual witnesses)(hearing witnesses)(other)(more other)(& then some more)' 'witnesses' that demonstrate that Hickey shot JFK
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Just wondering as to what constitutes the 'tonnes of evidence' which confirms that Hickey killed JFK
I'm also really curious as to what the xrays are supposed to tell us of Hickeys' guilt for killing JFK, or even the smell of cordite for that matter?
Also curious as to the '(visual witnesses)(hearing witnesses)(other)(more other)(& then some more)' 'witnesses' that demonstrate that Hickey shot JFK
There is no evidence Hickey killed JFK. None.
X-rays and the smell of cordite tell us nothing about Hickey's "guilt".
There is not a single witness who describes Hickey firing his gun let alone killing JFK.
All this thread reveals is how insane some members of this forum are.
If you're interested in that kind of insanity you've come to the right place.
If you're interested in the JFK assassination it's best you look elsewhere.
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There is no evidence Hickey killed JFK. None.
X-rays and the smell of cordite tell us nothing about Hickey's "guilt".
There is not a single witness who describes Hickey firing his gun let alone killing JFK.
All this thread reveals is how insane some members of this forum are.
If you're interested in that kind of insanity you've come to the right place.
If you're interested in the JFK assassination it's best you look elsewhere.
All this thread reveals is how insane some members of this forum are.
Yes I believe that you're right, Dan. There is insanity and irrational thinking in both camps.
And I believe that the acceptance of the finding of the WC in the Warren Report is insane.....The folks who accepted the Governments official declaration 50 years ago will be excused for believing the lie.....But any modern day researcher has no excuse .....The information that has surfaced over the last half century reveals that the WR is the biggest lie ever foisted upon the trusting American public.
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I can tell you this. A film taken by Charles Bronson(not the actor) shows the Secret Service car at the moment of the fatal shot. There is no rifle in Hickey's hands.
The dented lip in one of the shell casings is nothing new. Other carcano's do the same thing. I fired a Carcano owned by Todd Vaughan, along with a group of other people, and every third shell that was ejected had a dented lip and the bullet from it hit its mark. I hope this helps.
Other carcano's do the same thing.
If other carcano's dent the lip of the ejected shell...then it should be an easy task to explain what causes the dented lip?
I have dozens of spent carcano shells that I've fired ( They are not reloadable because they use a European type primer.) Not ONE of them has a dented lip....and I can't imagine how the ejection of the spent shell would dent the lip of the shell. I'm sure that you'll attempt to propagate the idea that the shell spins around and strikes the rear of the bridge ....But that's impossible because he shell would have to spin 180 degrees in half of it's length ( which is 2 inches.) IOW the shell would have to do a complete end around in the space of 1 inch. I do have one shell that is dented similar to the WC exhibit....It was dented by placing it on the floor and then placing a oak board on top of it and stepping down hard on the board....
Not only is the lip bent but the shoulder of the casing is also dented just like the WC exhibit....
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No
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I am visiting some threads that mention that Agent Hickey accidentally killed JFK.
Refutations that Hickey did it mainly employ a frame of the Bronson film that appears to show Hickey holding his AR15 at a 45deg upwards angle at the time of the shot, ie at Zapruder Z313. The rationale being that the AR15 had to be held at say minus 5deg to (accidentally) aim at JFK's head over the windshield of Queen Mary, & 45deg upwards would miss JFK's head by a mile.
There are some problems with thems refutations.
(1) The timing of the Bronson frames relative to Z313 is uncertain.
(2) Some of Bronson's frame to frame time gaps are equivalent to say 5 Zapruder gaps. Many Bronson gaps are equivalent to say 2 Zapruder frames (despite Bronson being 12 fps & Zapruder 18 fps).
(3) The time needed to (accidentally) swing an AR15 downwards from 45deg up to 5 deg down need not take more than say 2 Zapruder frames.
(4) The time to (accidentally) swing upwards from 5deg down to 45deg up need not take more than say 1 Zapruder frame, if the upswing is helped by the natural recoil.
(5) Kenneth S Weissman says that the 2019 copies of the Bronson film frames are superior to the 2017 copies (which are very blurry & have artifacts). Frame B09/52(2017) is usually the frame employed by refutationalists (Robin Unger's gallery shows the 2017 frames). Weissman says that B09(2019) does not show that there (45deg) rifle. However i definitely see a blurry AR15 at 45deg (see Weissman's pix below).
https://topekatornado.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/the-Bronson-Kennedy-assasination-film-investigation-Report.v2.1.pdf
(6) The 6th Floor Museum keep the 2019 frames locked away. They allowed Weissman limited access. The 6th Floor Museum are well aware that anti-Hickey refutationists employ the inferior 2017 frames. The 6th Floor Museum are of course the Chief anti-Hickeyians, today they continue to preach that their 2017 frames deny that Hickey shot JFK, while secretly believing that their 2019 frames do not.
(7) The 6th Floor Museum's fear is not limited to the loss of their holy 2017 refutation canon, they dread that the 2019 frames support Hickeyianity. We will never see the 2019 frames in Robin Unger's Gallery.
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From Weissman's Report : Bronson B09/52(2017) is on the left : Bronson B09(2019) is on the right.
https://sites.google.com/view/bronson-ar15-inframe11/home
I reckon that B09(2019) shows a blurry AR15 at 45deg, blurry partly because it is swinging swiftly (upwards), the fatal shot being a fraction of a second earlier.
Hence B09(2019) does not absolve Hickeyians from finding an explanation, Hickeyians have to use the same explanation that was needed for B09/52(2017). But B09(2019) has provided new ammunition for Hickeyians, the AR15 is blurry because it is swinging fastly up, having already done the dirty deed. Luckily enuff the ugly artifact in B09/52(2017) has nicely magnified the true existence of the AR15, otherwise we might have missed seeing the swiftly swinging AR15 in B09(2019).
Actually it is Weissman that called it an artifact, but it aint. It does however magnify the dark shape of the swiftly swinging (upwards) AR15.
The dark bit on the end might be an artifact, a blob. This is where the skinny steel sticks out beyond the wood. This kind of blob is like many others seen on the grass nearby in B09/52(2017). This might be an attack of the blobs, or it might not.
And while we are digesting all of that we can dwell on the fact that the 2017 frames show that Hickey lied. Hickey testified that he didnt grab the AR15 from the floor untill after the last shot, well after, near the underpass (at about Z480 i suppose). I can see the AR15 in a few 2017 frames, & i expect that the 2019 frames will show the same, only better. But The 6th Floor Museum wont tell visitors any of that (hey everyone, look over there, look at the nice big photos of the assassin).
It was rotten luck, he was just doing his job.
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My original theory that Hickey fired 6 accidental auto shots & that JFK was hit by shot-1 is not possible, koz we can see Hickey sitting (high up) on his 2 leather cases in Bronson B09, & we know that B09 is equal timewise to Z319. This timeline gives Hickey time to fire only 1 or 2 shots tween Z313 & Z319, ie whilst standing at Z313 & falling & sitting (high up) at Z319.
Hence the only way to make a 6-shot burst fit the timeline is to have JFK being hit by the last shot, shot-6. Shot-1 had more appeal, but shot-6 will have to do.
It means that Hickey (& the AR15) was falling forwards (& swinging down) during the burst, Hickey being "saved" by O'Donnell in the jump seat.
There are 19 good frames in the Bronson sequence (B20 is too blurry),& we are told that these run at an average of 12 fps.
Zapruder runs at 18.3 fps, hence the 19 frames are equivalent timewise to 28.975 Zapruder frames.
We know from measurements of the scenery passing by that the 19 frames skip at 5 locations, where in effect a total of 6 frames are "missing".
Hence we can consider the 19 to be 25 frames, & these 25 can be considered to be equivalent to 28.975 Zapruder frames.
Hence 1 Zapruder frame is on average equal to 1.16 Bronson frames.
The AR15 fires at 400 rpm which is 6.666 rps. Hence 1 Zapruder frame equals timewise 0.364 shots.
We know that Bronson B09 is at the same time as Z319 approx. And we know that Hickey's shot-6 was at Z313, or at least that his last shot was at Z313.
Hence working backwards we can make the following chart, based on there being 6 shots, which shows where Hickey's shots 6 5 4 3 2 & 1 happened.
If there were only 5 shots then we can change the 6.000 to 5.000 & deduct 1.000 down the column, in which case shot-1 would have been tween Z302 & Z303 instead of tween Z299 & Z300.
So, here is my chart showing the timeline for Hickey's 6-shot accidental auto burst.
B06A.36 & B02A.72 happen to fall on a dummy frame placed at a skip, the A denotes a dummy frame.
There were 6 dummy frames, which i called B02A B06A B08A B12A B15A & B15B. And they have been placed before frames B02 B06 B08 B12 & B15.
shot ... zapruder frame ....... Bronson frame
…….... ………… Z319 ………… ………… B09
………. ………… Z318 ………… ………… B08.84
………. ………… Z317 ………… ………… B07.68
………. ………… Z316 ………… ………… B06.52
………. ………… Z315 ………… ………… B06A.36
……... ………… Z314 ………… ………… B05.20
6.000 ………… Z313 ………… ………… B04.04
5.636 ………… Z312 ………… ………… B02.88
5.272 ………… Z311 ………… ………… B02A.72
4.908 ………… Z310 ………… ………… B01.56
4.544 ………… Z309 ………… ………… B00.40
4.180 ………… Z308 ………… ………… B-00.76
3.816 ………… Z307 ………… ………… B-01.92
3.452 ………… Z306 ………… ………… B-03.08
3.088 ………… Z305 ………… ………… B-04.24
2.724 ………… Z304 ………… ………… B-05.40
2.360 ………… Z303 ………… ………… B-06.56
1.996 ………… Z302 ………… ………… B-07.72
1.632 ………… Z301 ………… ………… B-08.88
1.268 ………… Z300 ………… ………… B-10.04
0.904 ………… Z299 ………… ………… B-11.20
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All this thread reveals is how insane some members of this forum are.
If you're interested in that kind of insanity you've come to the right place.
If you're interested in the JFK assassination it's best you look elsewhere.
Thanks Dan, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the value of the thread; differing opinions do not equal 'insanity', or if they do, then perhaps it's you who's in the wrong place
I'm really only here to consider an opinion other than my own based upon all of the arguments provided, so I would really like to hear from people who can present evidence as to why they believe that the fatal shot was delivered by Hickey, not as to why they disbelieve that to be the case
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Thanks Dan, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the value of the thread; differing opinions do not equal 'insanity', or if they do, then perhaps it's you who's in the wrong place
I'm really only here to consider an opinion other than my own based upon all of the arguments provided, so I would really like to hear from people who can present evidence as to why they believe that the fatal shot was delivered by Hickey, not as to why they disbelieve that to be the case
You're quite correct Nick, differing opinions do not equal "insanity".
Insanity equals insanity.
"I'm really only here to consider an opinion other than my own based upon all of the arguments provided,"
Exactly the same reason I came here myself.
Welcome to the forum and good luck with your adventure here.
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Hey Dan, and thanks for the response!
I am curious though, as to why you think this thread is, "insanity'
Insanity equals insanity.
You're right, that's main the reason I, too, came here from all the other sites and forums
I really love the variety of perspectives available, and the reasonable discourse shown in these pages
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Hey Dan, and thanks for the response!
I am curious though, as to why you think this thread is, "insanity'
Insanity equals insanity.
You're right, that's main the reason I, too, came here from all the other sites and forums
I really love the variety of perspectives available, and the reasonable discourse shown in these pages
We are being asked to believe that Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head with an AR-15.
And AR-15 is a very large, very powerful firearm.
We are being asked to believe that this accidental burst of fire happened while the Presidential limo was passing spectators stood only a few feet away.
JFK's limo is being closely followed by Hickey's car. They are both passing a line of spectators stood a matter of feet away.
The explosive noise of an AR-15 firing off a short burst.
Yet not one person notices this.
No-one in Hickey's car notices it.
No-one in the vice presidential (just behind Hickey's car) notices it.
But most importantly, not one witness in Dealey Plaza, including those stood a few feet away, notices it.
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We are being asked to believe that Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head with an AR-15.
And AR-15 is a very large, very powerful firearm.
We are being asked to believe that this accidental burst of fire happened while the Presidential limo was passing spectators stood only a few feet away.
JFK's limo is being closely followed by Hickey's car. They are both passing a line of spectators stood a matter of feet away.
The explosive noise of an AR-15 firing off a short burst.
Yet not one person notices this.
No-one in Hickey's car notices it.
No-one in the vice presidential (just behind Hickey's car) notices it.
But most importantly, not one witness in Dealey Plaza, including those stood a few feet away, notices it.
We are being asked to believe that Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head with an AR-15
Dan, I am certainly not asking you to believe any such thing, in fact to be clear, I do NOT believe that Hickey killed JFK!
Again, I am simply attempting to understand opinions which differ from my own about how JFK was killed
I would really like to hear from people who believe that Hickey's shot found the mark
I'm not sure that I can phrase it any more clearly other than I want to hear from people that believe HICKEY KILLED JFK....
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We are being asked to believe that Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head with an AR-15
Dan, I am certainly not asking you to believe any such thing, in fact to be clear, I do NOT believe that Hickey killed JFK!
Again, I am simply attempting to understand opinions which differ from my own about how JFK was killed
I would really like to hear from people who believe that Hickey's shot found the mark
I'm not sure that I can phrase it any more clearly other than I want to hear from people that believe HICKEY KILLED JFK....
I dont know whether u are stupid, or ignorant. Which is the same thing.
To remove your ignorance, simply search my threads & postings.
Which the CTers & LNers have not the whit to hav dunn.
Me myself, i have explained what happened.
And the CTers & LNers have failed to simply understand what i, a genius, have served up to them on a plate.
Look. U are new here.
When i came here, i spent weeks searching & reading thousands of postings & replys in a few forums & blogs.
So, go away, kum back in a few weeks. After u have done some homework.
Start off by buying 2 books. The smoking gun. Mortal error.
If u are serious, & want to save a bit of time, message me, & i will be happy to help.
This forum is a desert, guys & gals that had any good ideas left here years ago.
U are lucky that i am here to help.
U have blundered onto this forum.
That is good & that is bad.
It is good koz i am here.
But i dont know how long i will hang around.
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I dont know whether u are stupid, or ignorant
So, attempting to understand your position makes me somehow, stupid, and/or ignorant? Quite the opposite I'd have thought, but okay
Yes, I am new here and would have hoped for some level of reasonable tolerance for some genuine questioning of the subject for which I have grown to engage with some passion, however I don't feel that anything I've said warrants the level of indignation that you have put forward thus far
It's clear that any conversation I wished to have with you, is now moot, and it's also clear that you have neither the reasoning nor the resilience of someone who deserves any kind of rational discourse to take this any further...quite the shame!
Oh, and btw, to simply assume that people haven't performed any sort of research when taking the time to comment on these forums, speaks more of you, than it does of them...I am well read on these particular works, and have only made the mistake of 'blundering' into your particular brand of ignorance, which won't happen again
We're done!
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We are being asked to believe that Hickey accidentally shot JFK in the head with an AR-15
Dan, I am certainly not asking you to believe any such thing, in fact to be clear, I do NOT believe that Hickey killed JFK!
Again, I am simply attempting to understand opinions which differ from my own about how JFK was killed
I would really like to hear from people who believe that Hickey's shot found the mark
I'm not sure that I can phrase it any more clearly other than I want to hear from people that believe HICKEY KILLED JFK....
Yeah, Nick
You asked me this question:
"Hey Dan, and thanks for the response!
I am curious though, as to why you think this thread is, "insanity'"
My response was about the subject of this thread.
At no point did I say you were asking me to believe any such thing.
You've made it clear you don't know anything about this aspect of the case.
I did give you a specific answer as to why I consider this subject "insane" - that not a single witness reported something that was supposed to have happened directly in front of them.
What do you think about that as an argument against the possibility of Hickey accidentally shooting JFK?
LATER EDIT:
I see you've met the resident nutcase.
That's the kind of insanity that the Hickey thing arises out of.
Beware the Tinfoil Brigade.
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Yeah, Nick
You asked me this question:
"Hey Dan, and thanks for the response!
I am curious though, as to why you think this thread is, "insanity'"
My response was about the subject of this thread...
the subject of which is exactly why you think this thread is 'insanity'
At no point did I say you were asking me to believe any such thing. ...
nor did I, perhaps had I emboldened and italicized the "I", you would have seen my point!?
You've made it clear you don't know anything about this aspect of the case.
Have I? Asking someone to provide their perspective is demonstrative of my lack of knowledge...interesting!
I did give you a specific answer as to why I consider this subject "insane" - that not a single witness reported something that was supposed to have happened directly in front of them. Well I hold that to be as much of an reasonable argument as I would for the case of Jean Hill or the Senator Yarborough accounts supporting the opposing views, that is, none of which hold much value
That isn't up for debate really, what is up for debate, as I asked for initially, were people who were prepared to argue that Hickey fired the fatal shot, not for people who consider the premise to be 'insane'
What do you think about that as an argument against the possibility of Hickey accidentally shooting JFK?
Pretty ordinary, really
Once again, I didn't specifically ask for people to respond who believe the narrative that hickey didn't kill JFK, I want to hear from people who believe he did...sheesh!
I'm not sure that I can phrase it any more clearly other than I want to hear from people that believe HICKEY KILLED JFK....
LATER EDIT:
I see you've met the resident nutcase.
That's the kind of insanity that the Hickey thing arises out of.
Beware the Tinfoil Brigade.
Well, I'm not sure that I've met the only resident nutcase, nor am I prepared to meet any others!
It seems as thought these forums are quite enough full of them as to prevent inquiring minds to pursue them any further
It appears that there are far too many pedantic arguments in these forums than there are rational discourse; such a shame
Unbelievable, really
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Well, I'm not sure that I've met the only resident nutcase, nor am I prepared to meet any others!
It seems as thought these forums are quite enough full of them as to prevent inquiring minds to pursue them any further
It appears that there are far too many pedantic arguments in these forums than there are rational discourse; such a shame
Unbelievable, really
Search & read my 300 postings/replies, & u might lessen your ignorance.
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I dont know whether u are stupid, or ignorant. Which is the same thing.
To remove your ignorance, simply search my threads & postings.
Which the CTers & LNers have not the whit to hav dunn.
Me myself, i have explained what happened.
And the CTers & LNers have failed to simply understand what i, a genius, have served up to them on a plate.
Look. U are new here.
When i came here, i spent weeks searching & reading thousands of postings & replys in a few forums & blogs.
So, go away, kum back in a few weeks. After u have done some homework.
Start off by buying 2 books. The smoking gun. Mortal error.
If u are serious, & want to save a bit of time, message me, & i will be happy to help.
This forum is a desert, guys & gals that had any good ideas left here years ago.
U are lucky that i am here to help.
U have blundered onto this forum.
That is good & that is bad.
It is good koz i am here.
But i dont know how long i will hang around.
Marjan, Surely you're smart enough and alert enough to know that nobody takes you seriously.....You're simply an annoyance.
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kum back in a few weeks
U have blundered onto this forum.
That is good & that is bad.
It is good koz i am here.
But i dont know how long i will hang around.
U? Hav Dunn? Koz? Kum?
"Kum"? seriously? Maybe take a typing course...then 'kum' back in a few weeks.
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Marjan, Surely you're smart enough and alert enough to know that nobody takes you seriously.....You're simply an annoyance.
There have been 4 goodish arguments gainst Hickeyians.
1. That the AR15 needed to be very high for the shot to clear the windshield. I showed/drew that it needed to be 3" higher, & was.
1a. I showed that there was a large space tween the vizors, ie the shot didnt have to go over them.
2. That the 2017 copy of Bronson frame ?? showed Hickey sitting at Z313 with a blobby AR15 at 45 deg. I showed that it was at Z319, & i showed that the one & only good 2019 copy of the Bronson footage shows that the AR15 was quickly swinging up. And the 6th Floor Museum wont make the other 2019 frames public.
In fact were it not for the inferior blobby 2017 copy i/u/we would not have noticed the AR15 swinging up in the superior 2019 copy. A bit of good luck for a change.
3. That no one saw Hickey holding the AR15 at Z313. Mortal Error & The Smoking Gun ($25 ea) answer that.
4. That no one heard Hickey's shot. See 3.
Hill at the hozzie on the phone to Bobby Kennedy. "There has been an accident".
My own contribution is that there was a plurality of shots. Minimum of 4, probly 5, possibly 6.
Agent Floyd Boring said that when on auto u karnt fire an AR15 without firing at least say 3 shots.
The AR15-01 had a slamfire problem which they fixed by taking 2 gm off the firing pin for the AR15-02. But it wasnt a slamfire -- a slamfire would empty the 20 round magazine.
I also point out that the last shot, the headshot, is where the remnant slug made the crack in the windshield.
And that the 2nd-last shot put the dent in the chrome trim on the windshield above the mirror.
And that the 1st shot (probly) injured Tague.
The smell of the smoke is the clincher. From a plurality of shots.
No, the exploding head is the clincher, from a fragmenting slug.
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"Kum"? seriously? Maybe take a typing course...then 'kum' back in a few weeks.
Teddy started it in about 1906, & i am helping Teddy to finish the job, & there aint much time.
Lots of words start with c, or have c innem, when it should be a k. Damn Romans. Damn latin.
"Now, write that a 100 times before sunup or i'll kutchyaballsoff".
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Here is my posting from my thread earlier this year. https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.30.html
Except that back then i had the order wrong -- the headshot was the last not the first.
Hickey's Colt Armalite AR15 01 we now know didn’t have a BURST mode, it had an AUTO mode.
And we can be fairly certain that Hickey accidentally fired an auto burst of at least 4 shots, probably 5, possibly 6.
Here is my latest effort re a possible arc for a 6-shot burst.
The first shot is the JFK headshot. The remnant slug exits & cracks the windshield where shown just left of the mirror.
Shot-2 puts a dent in the chrome trim above & right of the mirror. Fragments dent the back of the mirror.
Shot-3 hits the tarmac of Elm St.
Shot-4 hits the concrete curb.
Shot-5 hits grass.
Shot-6 hits the tarmac of Main St & ricochets onto the curb 23'4" from the pier, near Tague.
Tague's left cheek is stung & bloodied by a fragment of lead from Shot-3 or 4 or 6.
The 52 grain deformed remnant of the 55 grain slug from shot-6 or 4 or 3 is found buried on top of the triple underpass by Lester using a detector in 1974.
This freeze frame from Dale Myers' cartoon footage does not show accurately Hickey's view from Queen Mary (i should say the AR15's view), but it will have to do.
[edit][as explained in my thread Bronson Saw Hickey Shoot JFK the Bronson film frame B09 is at Zapruder Z319 & B09 shows Hickey sitting high up in his seat holding the AR15 up at 50 deg, & we know that the JFK headshot was at Z313, hence if Hickey had a 6 shot burst then shot-6 had to be the headshot & shot-5 had to dent the chrome trim etc & shot-1 or one of the other shots wounded Tague, hence the above shot numbers have to be reversed.]
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPM9r7vX/Hickey-6-shot-burst.jpg)
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The Agents on Queen Mary have just seen a chunk of JFK's head blown off.
The motorcade has now passed the underpass & is heading for the hospital.
What are the agents on the runningboard of Queen Mary doing? Are they….
(1). Scanning the surrounds for conspirators.
(2). Scanning back to the top of the underpass for conspirators.
(3). Looking up the road ahead for danger.
(4). Looking to see if agent Hill is safely in JFK's limo.
(5). Trying to get a look at JFK & Jackie.
(6). Looking at agent Hickey & saying WTF.
Make up your own mind.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SQwsr1tnUBcoHXpS1_mWTIfO-8FaYArDOojmSIDsjdXBa0akHHgy-F0XNKBAnK2_O_eLSq0sODW7QtxiIoManQ-6KmE6n_yB70-hvI8D1e2kyxbMA7qszf3BYHLWCixLTrbEwNBBubHkXB8wTlVsjGeD5V_71hj9g0BK9Te_-fTWhJ8ZqZX2qxTQFj-cSYqdpYUM1MFD6Vjx9DTiW_JQwu15Hz2ijLNtwaUOvkDY3WbiO9rH295h7IdMflnNsNWOCbMSspWcAJf_D9Zx9OtY9c96u2X_O79EHe69IfzA8iQMMN6TtvoipQraVzELBvuGvJp8GblDBVASXNc6jxDJiOu0jefK5PrOSU9TyvPsjbvvskZHE-XBzm2Fng6OJFls0CNDkld-zBAhwxLwB4uA8HJliTKJPBzXzdyZ1sSrwiG_aOINxl1avHpsgWvMf3RCv23MZymyLwTEQ1blrsWhV2L0DBp3Xx174HtMyi0GLOI5Br5NWubk-O9wqhye7f77Z1RrbLrERqbxbKr84ucZPJB0K5y4ReC48F6n9dgk4g5ktsB5YOX41sjsn0qLcjyP2wac6lan14CJnT9GaiYjYRfoZ20Jxvx8A7jPP1AgKp2YiLRgJU8OBfEnt32nlZ17xDZe1xJ7zgTtGh9gZle5acIJwN4O3hhqnLyZWiiyYIdMFqTOktlhWMO6UKQuCA=w1023-h682-no?authuser=0)
It was rotten luck, he was just doing his job.
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The Agents on Queen Mary have just seen a chunk of JFK's head blown off.
The motorcade has now passed the underpass & is heading for the hospital.
What are the agents on the runningboard of Queen Mary doing? Are they….
(1).....(6)
Make up your own mind.
I have. (7) They are hanging on to that car for dear life as it speeds to that hospital at 75+ MPH
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I have. (7) They are hanging on to that car for dear life as it speeds to that hospital at 75+ MPH
The 2 on the running boards are looking back at Hickey.
Columbo: There are a couple of loose ends I'd like to tie up, sir. Nothing important you understand. Actually, so far, sir, we don’t have a thing.
Hickey: Well, that’s heartening.
Columbo: Officially, that is.
Hickey: And unofficially?
Columbo: Unofficially, we don’t have anything either.
Hickey: So, when did you first suspect me?
Columbo: As it happens, sir… the first time i read the report.
Hickey: That can’t be possible.
Columbo: Well sir, little things bother me. Like when i was looking for the tests done on your AR15, & the bullets. Especially your sworn witness testimony, sir.
Hickey: There were no tests, & i wasn’t called as a witness.
Columbo: Yes, that's what i mean sir. It's just one of those things that got in my head and kept rolling around in there like a marble
Columbo: My wife was a great fan of JFK sir.
Hickey: Well, tell her it was just rotten luck.
Columbo: Yes sir, u were just doing your job.
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FRIDAY, DECEMBER 16, 2011
The Accidental Death of John F. Kennedy
http://johnshaplin.blogspot.com/2011/12/accidental-death-of-john-f-kennedy.html
Howard Donahue was a Baltimore ballistics expert who became involved in the JFK investigation when he was called by CBS in the spring of 1967. CBS had constructed a mockup of Dealey Plaza, complete with a little track which pulled a moving target repeatedly through the “Plaza” at 11 miles per hour. CBS was trying to see whether they could find anybody who could hit the target three times in 5.6 seconds. Donahue fired three shots into a three inch circles in 5.2 seconds – and became fascinated with the weapons-and-ballistics aspects of the assassination.
Donahue’s theory, developed over the following twenty years, is that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact fire two shots at the President that warm November afternoon, with or without the assistance of a vast array of unknown conspirators. He missed with the first shot, although a fragment ricocheted up and hit the President in the neck. His second shot hit Kennedy and Governor John Connally, and his weapon jammed when he attempted a third shot. Unfortunately, a Secret Service man, George Hickey, grabbed a weapon and jumped when he heard the first shot. Hickey’s weapon accidentally fired, and that bullet, from Hickey’s gun, mortally wounded the President.
On first hearing this theory, almost no one believes it could be right. It sounds like just another helium balloon by someone who watched too many Mission: Impossible re-runs as a child. But I have read Donahue’s book Mortal Error carefully, and I have to tell you, if there is a flaw in his argument, I don’t see it.
Donahue is a ballistics expert who has testified in many criminal cases in that role. His ballistics argument include:
1.) The trajectory of the fatal bullet, plotted very carefully based on the entrance and “exit” wounds and the position of Kennedy’s head at the moment, traces a line behind Kennedy, and directly back to the Secret Service care which was following at a distance of about five feet.
2.) The bullet which hit Kennedy in the head disintegrated after impact, which a bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle would not have done, but a bullet fired from an AR-15, carried by Hinkey, would have. “The Carcano round (Oswald’s round) simply did not have the velocity – either rotational, from the rifling of the barrel – or linear, from the gunpowder charge in the skull – to completely shred the thick metal jacket and disintegrate the lead inside upon impact… the startling fact was that the bullet that hit Kennedy’s head ha not behaved like a full metal jacket at all.”
3.) A Carcano round, fired at the distance between Kennedy and Oswald at the moment of the fatal shot (believed to be 261 feet), could not have transmitted as much energy as the fatal round obviously did,.
4.) A .223 bullet, as fired from an AR-15 (Hickey’s gun), creates a little ‘lead snowstorm” in its target, as some of the lead actually melts on impact, then cools again in the tissue. A Carcano round has no similar effect. According to Donahue, exactly such an effect was described to him by Dr. Russell Fisher, a member of the pathologists panel which reviewed the autopsy results in 1968. (The President’s brain disappeared from the national archives shortly after that, making it impossible to confirm this allegation.
5.) The bullet fired by an AR-15 is 5.56 millimeters in diameter. A Carcano round is 6.5 millimeters. The entrance wound in the back of the President’s head was only six millimeters wide – making it seemingly impossible to put a 6.5 millimeter round through the hole.
Donahue’s material is stupefyingly dense but the situation is not as complicated as the language in which it musty be stated. If you can wade through the math until you get an intuitive feel for what the argument is about, you can figure things out. Let’s start with the fact that the fatal shot “entered the rear of the President’s skull and exploded out the right side of his head.” But Oswald was positioned to the right rear of Kennedy, behind him and to the right. That should mean that a shot from Oswald should have exited the left side of Kennedy’s head. Put the book down, take your fingers and point; you’ll see what I mean.
Not only that, but Oswald was way up in the air. The Warren Commission reported that the fatal shot was fired at a downward angle of 16 degrees. But, also according to the Warren report, the fatal bullet, as it exited, blew a hole in Kennedy’s skull; about two inches from the top of his head- above the hairline. A descending bullet should have created and exit wound through Kennedy’s face, about the height of his nose- not through his skull.
The Warren report defenders avoid this quandary by supposing that Kennedy’s head, at the moment of impact, is turned sharply to the left (25 degrees) and tilted sharply forward (40 degrees). Kennedy’s head was turned to the left and tilted forward at the moment of impact- but not nearly enough to explain the anomalous location of the exit wound…On the other hand, the exit wound is exactly where it should be if the fatal bullet was in fact fired from Agent Hickey’s weapon.
Let us deal with the circumstantial observations of the critical seconds:
1) Secret Service agent George Hickey carried an AR-15, which is the civilian version of the M-16, the rifle used by U.S. military ground troops in the Vietnam era. Numerous eyewitness reports state that Hickey had grabbed this weapon and was waving it around within seconds of the first shot.
2) One eyewitness, S.M. Holland, told the Warren Commission interviewer that “just about the same time the President was shot the second time, he (Hickey) jumped up in the seat and was standing up…now I actually thought when they started up, I actually though he was shot, too, because he fell backwards just like he was shot, but it jerked him down when they started off.” Holland also observed that agent Hickey had his weapon in his hands at the moment.
3) Special agent Winston Lawson was in the first car of the motorcade, the car ahead of Kennedy’s on that day. His job was to look steadily backward at the President. Maintaining constant visual contact. In his statement written December 1, 1963, agent Wilson wrote that:
“As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed agent Hickey standing in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.”
4) Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett, seated next top Hickey in the follow-up car, says that when the second shot hit Kennedy he yelled “He’s hit” and reached for the A-15 on the floor of the vehicle- only to realize agent Hickey already had it. Secret Service Agent Emory Roberts, who was in charge of the agents in the follow-up car, reported that just after the shooting he turned and saw Hickey with the rifle, and said “Be careful with that.”
5) While the sound reports from the scene are confusing, many ear-witnesses that that one or more shots had originated from near the President. Austin Miller, watching from the overpass, thought that the shots had come “
from right there in the car.” Royce Skelton, also watching from the overpass, said that he thought the shots came “from around the President’s car.” Mary Elizabeth Woodward, standing just in front of the grassy knoll, described the third shot as “
a horrible ear-shattering noise.”
6) Several individuals who were part of the resident’s motorcade reported smelling gunpowder. Mrs. Earle Cabell, wife of the mayor of Dallas, was riding in an open convertible, four cars behind the death car. She saw the barrel of the rifle projecting through the open window, and immediately after that reported smelling gunpowder. Other people riding in the motorcade also reported the smell of gunpowder, including Tom Dillard, a journalist who was riding in an open car about a block behind the President, and Senator Ralph Yarborough, who was in the care immediately behind Agent Hickey’s
If in fact the only shots fired that afternoon were from Oswald’s rifle, sic stories in the air and inside a building, I have a very difficult time understanding why numerous eyewitnesses would smell gunpowder at ground level and in the path of the presidential limousine.
From there on, what we have in support of the Donahue thesis is a series of after-the-fact observations, culled by Donahue from dozens of Kennedy books.
1) Jim Bishop, in The Day Kennedy Was Shot, reported that Secret Service agent Clint Hill phoned the White House from the hospital. “There’s been an accident,” he reported, apparently overheard by the reporter.
2) According to LBJ: The Way He Was by Frank Cormier, Lyndon Johnson hated to have the Secret Service agents tailgating him, and once, on a hunting trip, threatened to shoot out their tires if they didn’t keep a safe distance. Another time, Johnson told Cormier that “If I ever get killed, it won’t be because of an assassin. It’ll be some Secret Service agent who trips himself up and his gun goes off. They’re worse than trigger-happy Texas sheriffs.”
Donahue’s theory is that nobody intended to kill the President, other than Oswald; it was an accident. It was an accident which happened to occur in such a manner that it was very unclear, to the persons on the scene, what had happened or what was happening. Once this terrible accident had occurred, very few people would have to have knowledge of what was going on. It is quite possible that Agent Hickey himself did not realize what had happened.
And those few people who did, faced with a fait accompli, have a powerful incentive to keep quiet about it. Look at what happens if they talk:
1). Agent Hickey’s life is destroyed
2). All of the agents involved are professionally destroyed.
3).The Secret Service, a government agency with an annual budget of many millions of dollars, is seriously compromised.
There have been other incidents of men being accidentally killed by their bodyguards- indeed, a book argues that this is what happened to the Kingfish, Huey Long. Ross Perot argued during the 1992 presidential campaign that the Secret Service was a vast waste of money, that it was used for political purposes, that it was used to disguise perquisites of office, and that it should be disbanded. There is much truth to this argument; certainly no journalist close to the President would deny that the Secret Service is routinely use to enable the President to “stage” events.
If, in addition to these abuses, it became known that the Secret Service had accidentally shot President Kennedy, do you think the public would still be willing to shell out millions for this “protection”? I’m not an investigative reporter; I’m just a guy who reads a lot of crime books. To me, Mortal Error remains the most persuasive account of the tragedy in Dallas.
Popular Crime; Reflections on the Celebration of Violence by Bill James; Scribner. 2011
POSTED BY JOHNSHAPLIN AT 3:24 PM
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2836.msg111420.html#msg111420
Here is a giff of Queen Mary in my 19 Bronson frames.
Z313 is at about B04 (it aint at the usually trumpeted B09).
These are from Robin Unger's 2017 copies.
The Sixth Floor Museum wont make the superior 2019 frames public.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjb3NCQm/Webp-net-gifmaker-1.gif)
After the 19 Bronson frames we get Queen Mary in my 37 Nix frames (starting with N34 ending with N70). I dont know how much time there is tween B19 & N34.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rp0qjzMR/output-g-CFLIq.gif)
Here is Robin Unger's Muchmore giff.
It fits somewhere tween the Bronson giff & the Nix giff. I dont know exactly where.
It doesnt show much of Queen Mary & it shows zero of Ready & Co, but it does show driver Kinney looking hard right.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G8xFTxysgfU/YJt12j_BSVI/AAAAAAAAAFI/TG6ra5exJwEItCCPaHGdldfq2PHS0AsvgCNcBGAsYHQ/s16000/Muchmore.gif)
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FROM MY EARLIER BRONSON THREAD.
I noticed something new today. The Muchmore film is shown in the first 31 frames of the 120 frames in the Muchmore folder in Robin Unger's gallery on this website. From frame M001 to M028 u can see the hood of Queen Mary. At frames M029 M030 M031 u can see the driver Kinney. He is starting to look to his right, & at frame M031 he has turned right as far as is possible without turning his body. Unfortunately frame M031 is the last.
What does the Nix film show? Unfortunately frame M031 corresponds to i think Nix frame N232, & the lady with the tan coat blocks our view of Hickey in frames N231 N232 N233, & partly blocks Kinney in frames N230 N234. But we can see that in earlier Nix frames & in later Nix frames Kinney is looking directly ahead towards the JFK limo. The fatal shot is i think at N209, ie 23 Nix frames before Kinney's head turn at N232, ie a little over 1 second.
So, Kinney, who is keeping Queen Mary 6 ft behind the JFK limo, finds an urgent need to have a quick look to his right or rear. Why? Was it because Agent Ready has jumped off the running board & Agent Roberts is telling Ready to come back? I don’t think so. Kinney could see all of that action by just half turning to his right. And Ready's jumping & unjumping is surely not as critical as the need to avoid squashing Agent Hill tween Queen Mary & the JFK limo.
Did Kinney turn his head hard right to get a look at Agent Landis jumping off the running board? Landis did jump off, however i have never seen it mentioned. Landis was standing next to the jump seats. No, i don’t think that that was the reason.
Did Kinney turn his head hard right because Agent Hickey had fired his AR15 past Kinney's right earhole at frame M009 N209 B09 Z313?
Yes, the AR15 firing a shot (i reckon 3 shots)[today i reckon 4 or 5 or 6 shots](an auto burst) past Kinney's right earhole would surely do the trick. Kinney's head turn was probably a voluntary action, rather than non-voluntary, say 1 second after the shot, but nonetheless it was fairly automatic & non-avoidable i reckon.
What does the Bronson film tell us about Kinney's head turn? Unfortunately the Bronson frames B01 to B20 stop at about Nix N226, ie 6 Nix frames short of seeing Kinney's head turn at N232. Bronson was standing on a pedestal, ie higher than Nix, hence the lady in the tan coat would not i think have blocked Bronson's view of Kinney's head. The fatal shot was at B09 or a fraction earlier i think.
U might remember that some days ago i mentioned the earlier head turn reaction by McIntyre (standing on the rear of the left running board). He can be seen looking right in Bronson B04 to B09, ie towards Hickey, & we can assume that he is looking at Hickey because he has seen that Hickey has picked up the AR15. The fatal shot is at about B09. However unfortunately McIntyre is out of frame in the Muchmore film, hence the Muchmore film can't be used to confirm McIntyre's head turn.
And McIntyre is out of frame in most of the Nix film. He is only partly vizible in Nix frames N239 to N248 (we can see his head & the front half of his body). In thems frames he is looking directly ahead. Kinney turned his head 7 frames earlier at N232. The fatal shot was at say N209.
Here is Muchmore M031 of 120, showing Kinney looking right. And below that we see Nix N233 of 652 showing the lady blocking our view.
In N233 u can see under Queen Mary that Ready & Landis are both standing on the road [edit-- they were not on the road, it was their shadow].
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/20150407-074141.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Gayle%20Nix%20Jackson%20Frames/0235.jpg)
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HERE IS WHAT I WROTE IN MY EARLIER BRONSON THREAD.
NOTE McINTYRE'S REACTIONS.
Details of the motorcade can be found in --Presidential Motorcade Schematic Listing – by Todd Wayne Vaughn.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf
We are lucky to have B04 to B18 (B01 to B20 actually).
This is the only footage-photo of what happened in & around Queen Mary at the time of Z313. All others focused on the JFK limo & incidentally got a small chunk of Queen Mary. Here is what i see in B04 to B18 ( i later included B01 B02 B03 B19 B20) .............
(1) Kinney (driver). Can be seen relatively well. Is looking ahead throughout.
(2) Roberts (sitting next to Kinney). Hidden by Kinney. We can see the top of his head at times. Reactions not vizible.
(3) O'Donnell (sitting in left jump seat). Hidden by McIntyre.
(4) Powers (sitting in right jump seat). Hidden by McIntyre & O'Donnell.
(5) Hickey (semi-standing in left of rear seat). I will give a detailed description of Hickey's actions later. We can usually see 2 blurry dark shapes in the rear seat, with blurry mainly dark heads. Its impossible to tell which is Hickey & which is Bennett. In some frames the 2 shapes & heads are smudged into oblivion. In some frames (especially near Z313) 3 spectators standing on the south side of Elm St block our view of Hickey & Bennett (& our view of the others). The 15 extant frames are jumpy, because they should be 22 frames (7 frames have been skipped by the 3rd rate camera, or are missing). Our pseudo-footage would play much better & tell us more if we had the benefit of thems extra 7 frames. After a long time i realized that one reason that its difficult to see what is what & who is who is that Hickey is looking to his right in some frames, & we see the dark back of his blurry head. This escaped me. I could see the nice pink sides of Agent's faces fairly clearly in lots of frames, but not so for Hickey & Bennett. Bennett shows a little bit of pink much of the time (actually its not even pink, its just a small weak pale smudge of a face-patch). Hickey shows merely a hint of face-patch in a half of the frames, because we see the back of his head mostly. He has turned his head (to his right), & possibly his body (in which case we can see his back). More about Hickey later.
(6) Bennett (sitting in the right of the rear seat). It is fairly certain that Bennett is the one sitting leaning forward (praps he likes to keep his hand on the door-handle), whereas Hickey is in the left seat & is higher & leaning back sitting up on some cases placed on the seat for that purpose. Bennett's head is much lower than Hickey's head. Bennett is looking rightish, possibly scanning for long range threats i reckon (eg the picket fence). If he were looking straight ahead then the sides of his faces should look large & pink like others, but his face-patches look narrow & weak koz we can see the back of his head mostly (but its difficult to tell, being so blurry etc). I dont think that Bennett ever glances directly at Hickey, but its difficult to tell. His face-patch is pinkest at B16, i think that he looks towards the commotion in the limo, or is it a late reaction to the sound of Hickey's shot. Is B16 a head turn reaction to Hickey's shot at B09? Bennett's head is 100% hidden by the red lady's head in B17, & in B18 his head is smudged & his face isnt detectable, & later when i included B19 i found that B19 had a strange pinkish smudge near where Bennett's face should be, but i couldnt find any clear evidence that the possible head turn reaction in B16 continued after, if i did find such evidence then it would be ok for me to claim that Bennett had a head-turn reaction to Hickey's shot at B09, but no such luck.
(7) Hill (standing on the front of the left running board). Hill can be seen running on the road just ahead of the windshield at B04, & by B18 he is way ahead almost at JFK's limo. I said "can be seen running" but really its not much better than guesswork, Hill is so blurry. We can see a suspicion of his face-patch in a few of the frames. But there is no possibility of seeing whether Hill had any reaction to a shot at B09 (did Hill ever say that he heard the fatal 3rd shot?)(whilst running).
(8 ) McIntyre (standing on the rear of the left running board). McIntyre can be seen looking right in B04 to B09, ie towards Hickey. We know that McIntyre is looking right because we can't see the pink of McIntyre's face, we see the dark of the back of his head.
And we can assume that he is looking at Hickey because he
has seen that Hickey has picked up the AR15.
Then in B10 we can see the pink of the side of McIntyre's face because McIntyre has now quickly looked towards JFK,
& we can assume that that is because he saw Hickey fire at B09.
After B10 McIntyre continues to look towards JFK.
(9) Ready (standing on the front of the right running board). Ready is the clearest & most vizible of everyone in Queen Mary, ordinarily our view of Ready would be blocked by Hill standing on the left running board but Hill has run off. Ready looks ahead the whole time, & shows no reaction to Hickey's shot.
(10) Landis (standing on the rear of the right running board). Our view of Landis is partly blocked by McIntyre in every frame. In some frames we can see a small part of Landis's face & hair & head. He might have looked to his left towards Hickey when Hickey picked up the AR15, & he might then have looked towards JFK after the shot, but i don’t think that we can judge any of that because his face is mostly blocked by McIntyre's head. Bennett is sitting tween Landis & Hickey, & Bennett (leaning forward as always)(as can be seen in photos) has partly blocked Landis's view of Hickey picking up the AR15, hence Landis early on might not even be aware that Hickey has picked up the AR15. Actually silly me i forgot that Landis is standing next to the jump seats not next to the rear seat, hence Landis looking rightish because of the curve is looking awayish from Hickey & hardly likely to notice Hickey with the AR15 & in addition Landis somehow fails to react to the sound of the shot (he should have turned leftish).
Spectators. There are 4 spectators close to Queen Mary on the southern side of Elm St, & others close on the northern side, & others at various locations, but i can't see any obvious reactions by any spectators to a shot by Hickey in Queen Mary. Naturally spectators in B04 to B18 would be focused on JFK, especially after JFK's reaction to getting shot by Oswald's shot-2 at Z218 (ie 95 Zapruder frames before Z313-B09), & especially after Hill has taken off on foot. And Hickey is hidden away in the middle of a ring of Agents.