JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jake Maxwell on August 06, 2018, 06:01:58 PM

Title: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 06, 2018, 06:01:58 PM
The Warren Commission's exhibits #386 and #388 show the initial medical depictions of Kennedy's wounds and the supposed path of the fatal bullet from the rear. If this drawing has any credibility, it is absolutely ridiculous to think Kennedy was killed by an Oswald shot from the sixth floor. The transparency image below, from Z frame #312, right before the fatal shot, makes this very clear.

We have only three options when considering the Warren Commission's initial supposed bullet trajectory, IMO (SEE Jerry Organ post below):
1) Someone in the rear vehicle killed him (certainly no one from the sixth floor)
2) Frames have been left out of Zapruder (and other films) showing that the president was actually bent over much further
3) The medical drawing was made to look like JFK took a shot from the rear
(https://image.ibb.co/jegSiz/jfkbulletwc1.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/hdhiOz/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_12_34_58_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/eQbXGK/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_12_43_49_PM.png)
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 06, 2018, 06:12:19 PM
Oh yes... I left out another option... there were at least TWO magic bullets!
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 06, 2018, 10:17:33 PM
The HSCA rejected the WC/Humes skull inshoot location. Instead, the Committee's Medical Evidence Panel accepted the Clark Panel finding that the entry wound was further up on the skull than that described by Humes and depicted in the WCR.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/hscaheadwounds.gif)

The graphic below shows the head tilt with the trajectory slope from the Oswald window.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z312position.jpg)

Many CTs and a few LNers, including Larry Sturdivan, believe Humes got the skull inshoot location more-or-less correct.


In the 2013 NOVA documentary "Cold Case JFK" ( Link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/cold-case-jfk.html) ), Studivan's claim was supposedly substantiated by forensic pathologist Peter Cummings, who traced skull fracture lines seen on the autopsy X-rays. The YouTube video above, was presented by the "Boston Globe" and was not part of the televised program.
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Gary Craig on August 06, 2018, 11:14:14 PM
More cognitive dissonance and doubt.

Where are the photographs the autopsy doctors had taken of the fatal wound in JFK's skull that show the

inside and outside veiw of the bullet hole at the EOP?
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 07, 2018, 12:53:09 AM
Jerry, Thanks for this helpful information. It does raise a few questions about whether some might have tried to re-interpret the wounds to be more compatible with a sixth floor fatal shot.... HOWEVER, if I'm seeing things correctly, the re-interpretation is just as bad in trying to line things up with a sixth floor shot. NOTE how the HSCA graphic you provided, in transparency with a purple arrow, compares with your image tracing out the shot with a yellow arrow. It really looks like the re-interpreted angle from proposed entry and exit would require a helicopter shot...!
Am I missing something here?

(https://image.ibb.co/dKsUwK/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_7_21_52_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/gczWAe/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_7_14_52_PM.png)
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 07, 2018, 02:37:21 PM
Does the HSCA suggested trajectory (purple arrow) look like the fatal bullet could have come from the sixth floor of the TSBD?

(https://image.ibb.co/dKsUwK/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_7_21_52_PM.png)
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 07, 2018, 03:30:43 PM
So... you're wedded to the HSCA outshoot site?

You're fairly alone on that. The HSCA based its outshoot on what they thought they saw on an autopsy photograph: "a semicircular defect which appears to be beveled outward" and "part of the perimeter of the exit hole is visible along the margin of the defect." Even if it was a bevel feature from an exiting metallic fragment, it wouldn't mean that particular fragment had remained on its original trajectory, being deflected on entering the inshoot site.

Trying to establish a singular outshoot site is pointless. If there are impacts from exiting fragments, one doesn't know how deflected the fragments were. As well, an exit point might have been blasted away and not present in the medical evidence.

If one applies the WC trajectory slope to the Clark Panel/HSCA skull inshoot site, the center of the trajectory continues on to where we see the skull's explosive effect in Z313.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/hsca/canning/reworked/wcr-headshotslope.jpg)  (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z300-z349/z313.jpg)
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 07, 2018, 03:49:42 PM
Jerry, Am I mistaken here... Is this not from the Clark Panel finding referenced in your post above?

(https://image.ibb.co/gczWAe/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_7_14_52_PM.png)
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 07, 2018, 05:58:57 PM
Quote from: Jake Maxwell on August 07, 2018, 03:49:42 PM
Jerry, Am I mistaken here... Is this not from the Clark Panel finding referenced in your post above?

(https://image.ibb.co/gczWAe/Screen_Shot_2018_08_06_at_7_14_52_PM.png)

That's a drawing produced by the HSCA, showing their general acceptance of the Clark Panel's siting of the skull entry wound ("inshoot"). The "outshoot" on that drawing did not come from the Clark Panel. The Clark Panel Report ("Panel Review", 1968) is here: Link (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/clark.txt).

The Bethesda pathologists reviewed the autopsy materials earlier, submitting a report (nicknamed "Military Review", 1967): Link (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt).

I disregard the HSCA "outshoot" site. But if you're going to use the HSCA "inshoot/outshoot" slope line to back-project a trajectory, at least consider a cone projection backwards to represent the margin of error and potential for deflection.

(http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/concl18_pic.gif)  (http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/concl19_pic.gif)
Above: Example of back-project method. Note it doesn't show the head-wound case.
Don't back-project using a singular line.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/e/e5/Photo_hsca_ex_139.jpg)
HSCA Exhibit F-139

Using a back-projection cone that they said represented a reasonable margin of error, the HSCA discover that the rear portion of the projection cone included the Oswald window. They never claimed a singular-line would trace from the outshoot backwards through the inshoot and further backwards on into the Oswald window.

If one uses the Humes/Studivan "near EOP" inshoot, there is a degree of deflection necessary to account for the entry site to redirect to the gaping exit wound site. There is also a theory that the explosive head wound in Z313 is not really an exit wound at all, but the entry wound for a frangible bullet.
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 07, 2018, 06:16:46 PM
Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 07, 2018, 05:58:57 PM
That's a drawing produced by the HSCA, showing their general acceptance of the Clark Panel's siting of the skull entry wound ("inshoot"). The "outshoot" on that drawing did not come from the Clark Panel. The Clark Panel Report ("Panel Review", 1968) is here: Link (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/clark.txt).

The Bethesda pathologists reviewed the autopsy materials earlier, submitting a report (nicknamed "Military Review", 1967): Link (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt).

I disregard the HSCA "outshoot" site. But if you're going to use the HSCA "inshoot/outshoot" slope line to back-project a trajectory, at least consider a cone projection backwards to represent the margin of error and potential for deflection.

(http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/concl18_pic.gif)  (http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/concl19_pic.gif)
Above: Example of back-project method. Note it doesn't show the head-wound case.
Don't back-project using a singular line.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/e/e5/Photo_hsca_ex_139.jpg)
HSCA Exhibit F-139

Using a back-projection cone that they said represented a reasonable margin of error, the HSCA discover that the rear portion of the projection cone included the Oswald window. They never claimed a singular-line would trace from the outshoot backwards through the inshoot and further backwards on into the Oswald window.

If one uses the Humes/Studivan "near EOP" inshoot, there is a degree of deflection necessary to account for the entry site to redirect to the gaping exit wound site. There is also a theory that the explosive head wound in Z313 is not really an exit wound at all, but the entry wound for a frangible bullet.

Using a back-projection cone that they said represented a reasonable margin of error, the HSCA discover that the rear portion of the projection cone included the Oswald window.

The deception here is:.....  Labeling the SE corner window as "The Oswald Window"....   Lee was in the Domino Room at the time of the murder....

And although a "projection one may include that SE corner window that "projection cone" is deceptive because even though the window is in that area...it does NOT mean a rifle could have been fired from several feet back from that window by a sniper sitting on a box and using a stack of books as a steady rest for the rifle. ( as the theory proposed by the authorities suggested) because the muzzle of the rifle could not have been declined to hit anything on Elm street...

Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 07, 2018, 11:44:43 PM
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2hwlcmb.jpg)  (https://s.hdnux.com/photos/16/32/56/3779511/3/920x920.jpg)
Window opened more on day of assassination than how it is now at the Sixth Floor Museum
(http://i67.tinypic.com/5zf69h.jpg)
Box Arrangement as seen inside
  (http://i64.tinypic.com/30jmakj.jpg)
Same Box Arrangement as seen outside
Seems enough room to position a rifle over the topmost box and acquire a target.
Title: Re: The bullet trajectory - ridiculously impossible from the rear!
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2018, 12:19:15 AM
Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 07, 2018, 11:44:43 PM
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2hwlcmb.jpg)  (https://s.hdnux.com/photos/16/32/56/3779511/3/920x920.jpg)
Window opened more on day of assassination than how it is now at the Sixth Floor Museum
(http://i67.tinypic.com/5zf69h.jpg)
Box Arrangement as seen inside
  (http://i64.tinypic.com/30jmakj.jpg)
Same Box Arrangement as seen outside
Seems enough room to position a rifle over the topmost box and acquire a target.

In the first place you're not using the photos....you are using a phony drawing...and secondly....the authorities theorized that the arch villain Lee Harrrrvey Osssswald sat on a box back away from the window and used the stack of three rolling readers as a steady-rest for firing the rifle......using their theory....It would have been impossible to decline the muzzle of the rifle down onto the murder scene.....