JFK Assassination Forum

Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Richard Rubio on August 05, 2018, 09:16:29 PM

Title: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 05, 2018, 09:16:29 PM
Lansdale, inspiration for the Ugly and the Quiet American.

Quote
EDWARD LANSDALE, PROTOTYPE FOR 'UGLY AMERICAN,' DIES
By Bart Barnes
February 24, 1987

Edward Geary Lansdale, 79, a retired Air Force major general who spent most of his career as a counterinsurgency specialist in the Philippines and South Vietnam, where he developed the doctrine that communism could best be defeated by "winning the hearts and minds of the people," died of a heart ailment Feb. 23 at his home in McLean.

Gen. Lansdale was an influential and often controversial figure who helped shape U.S. policy in Southeast Asia at critical junctures during the 1950s and 1960s. He was an assistant for special operations to secretary of defense Robert S. McNamara during the early years of the Kennedy administration when vital decisions were being made to commit U.S. support to the Saigon government in fighting the Viet Cong in South Vietnam.

As special adviser to the Philippines defense minister, Ramon Magsaysay, he directed the successful campaign against the communist-led Hukbalalhap guerrillas during the early 1950s.

Read more at:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1987/02/24/edward-lansdale-prototype-for-ugly-american-dies/d2ff2042-05c8-4f1d-b12d-972bf8338b14/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0c51646de42d
Full Movie:
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Barry Pollard on August 07, 2018, 04:23:42 AM
Having not read the book, the one JFK liked, I have to hope that it is very different from the film and correct me if I'm wrong but
the Brando part is not the same as the one based on Landsdale in the book.  Interesting watch but boy, that narrative is so loose with the truth.
You have to see and hear the film's Diem character, it's Thai's Paul Lynde.
Also, who would the king be representing who visits the country, LBJ? I have no idea.

Did you know that there was attempt on Macnamara's life in 'Nam?
Don't ask me the courageous young man's name who almost made it but you might like to look it up.

Unless your ultra curious, I would pass on the interview below, for me I learnt next to nothing.
4hours of drivel.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 07, 2018, 05:01:01 AM
It's complex history that would take, at least for me, some research... also, out of all of this, the Peace Corps was initiated. The Kennedy Administration is known for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American     (<--- The book which the movie is based on)

Quote
The book caused a sensation in diplomatic circles, and had major political implications. The Peace Corps was established during the Kennedy administration partly as a result of the book.[citation needed] It was one of the biggest bestsellers in the country, has been in print continuously since it appeared and is one of the most politically influential novels in all of American literature.[1]
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 07, 2018, 05:20:36 AM
Lansdale did have some of the "love for the common people" in how he operated, this is so. He felt that to win against an enemy, say the Communists for example in the Philippines, you have to win the heart of the people. Maybe I can expand on this later.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Barry Pollard on August 07, 2018, 07:23:42 PM
In Vietnam, "the communists" were the people. That's why we instituted the client regime because winning a fair election was just not going to happen.
That same regime was killing Buddists for years( the vast majority of ordinary people were Buddist), it's only when it gained so much publicity with the priests that we started to worry about it.
Brando going off on his old freind because he thinks he's turning commie on him is probably one of the better scenes but the whole premise is just so ridiculous.
There's even a reference to NSAM111 in there, where "Diem" finds evidence of "communists guns" giving the US the excuse to bring in the real heat. the reality was that from 62-65 a study found only 2% of arms were foreign, the rest came from us, captured from us
Forming a free society where a country is allowed to use it's resources to benefit it's own people and trading with anyone it likes is not something that can be tolerated, that's the real threat to the US, that's our problem with Cuba, Vietnam and many, many others in a nutshell, we forced them to turn elsewhere because true democratic societies are no benefit to us, that's why we don't have one and never will.

Scoll down to the notes on "Ugly American"(the poster) then back up if you want to learn more on Galula
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/93073500-9459-3bbb-a3e5-cde7a1cc2559 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/93073500-9459-3bbb-a3e5-cde7a1cc2559)
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 07, 2018, 08:58:39 PM
In Vietnam, "the communists" were the people. That's why we instituted the client regime because winning a fair election was just not going to happen.
That same regime was killing Buddists for years( the vast majority of ordinary people were Buddist), it's only when it gained so much publicity with the priests that we started to worry about it.
Brando going off on his old freind because he thinks he's turning commie on him is probably one of the better scenes but the whole premise is just so ridiculous.
There's even a reference to NSAM111 in there, where "Diem" finds evidence of "communists guns" giving the US the excuse to bring in the real heat. the reality was that from 62-65 a study found only 2% of arms were foreign, the rest came from us, captured from us
Forming a free society where a country is allowed to use it's resources to benefit it's own people and trading with anyone it likes is not something that can be tolerated, that's the real threat to the US, that's our problem with Cuba, Vietnam and many, many others in a nutshell, we forced them to turn elsewhere because true democratic societies are no benefit to us, that's why we don't have one and never will.

Scoll down to the notes on "Ugly American"(the poster) then back up if you want to learn more on Galula
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/93073500-9459-3bbb-a3e5-cde7a1cc2559 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/93073500-9459-3bbb-a3e5-cde7a1cc2559)

I believe we are familiar with this or some of this but the truth is before Vietnam was the Philippines whose government had to battle insurgent communist guerillas as well in the Hukbalahap.  This may well be why the book by Max Boot on Lansdale is called "The Road Not Taken" and why the point of contention is whether Vietnam might have turned out better if it had been run more like the Philippines.  Buddhism is not even a very big religion I would think in the Philippines, so a much different situation.

Philippines had a very popular leader that yes, the people did support:

Quote
Magsaysay and the Filipino People
Few people have directly affected an entire population as Ramon Magsaysay. His honesty, unpretentious aire, and deep concern with the problems faced by his countrymen forged a bond with the common man that was unprecedented in Philippine history. He lived in an unprotected home (at least until he was convinced to move into Lansdale's guarded residence within the JUSMAG compound), wore simple clothes, frequently drove his own car, and spoke in a manner easily understood by all. To make sure that the people knew what he was striving for, he traveled daily across his nation, visiting military installations and civilian communities alike, asking questions and listening to what his people had to say. As one villager told a journalist about Magsaysay: "The government never comes here to see how we live. The only man who comes to these parts is Magsaysay," and adding a bit of prophecy, "Maybe he should be president. At least he knows how badly we need his help, and seems to be the only one interested in the welfare of the barrios."30


Magsaysay normally wore common civilian clothing on his travels -- an "aloha" shirt and slacks. Unlike other government officials who traveled amidst great pomp, Magsaysay's ordinary appearance lent credence to his reform plans and helped him gain the people's trust. On one occasion, however, his appearance almost cost him a long and uncomfortable walk through the Philippine countryside. With his personal advisor, Lt. Col. Lansdale, he had flown by helicopter to what he thought was walking distance from a village. After walking for some time, the two realized that they had misjudged the distance and tried to catch a ride with passing motorists. Finally one driver stopped when he saw Lansdale, who was in uniform, but hesitated to give a ride to the other man, whom he did not recognize. Only after Lansdale convinced the Filipino that his companion was the secretary of national defense, did the wary driver permit Magsaysay to get into his car.31

https://history.army.mil/books/coldwar/huk/ch5.htm


So, Vietnam was different and Boot and apparently, Steve Forbes, Forbes magazine, seem to argue that Lansdale should have been listened to more per that war.

Quote
Astonishing Story Of The One Man Who Could Have Spared Us Our Vietnam War Tragedy
 Steve Forbes
Forbes Staff
“With all thy getting, get understanding."
This story appears in the February 28, 2018 issue of Forbes.

The Road Not Taken—by Max Boot (Liveright, $35)—is a brilliant, extremely well-written book about a forgotten figure who was one of the most extraordinary and utterly unorthodox espionage agents in history, and it contains a telling scene that encapsulates what went tragically wrong with the Vietnam War. The operative, Edward Lansdale, was visiting President John F. Kennedy's defense chief, Robert McNamara. The former president of Ford Motor, McNamara profoundly believed that everything could be managed by numbers (or what we today call "metrics"). McNamara had an IQ that could boil water, a personality that could freeze the tropics and a deep disdain for anyone he considered his intellectual inferior, which was almost everybody. Lansdale was given ten minutes--no more!--to advise McNamara on how the U.S. should deal with the growing communist insurgency in South Vietnam. The allotted time was a harbinger of how the meeting would go.

Lansdale was a man well worth listening to. In the 1930s he'd been an advertising man in California, where he demonstrated a real knack for writing and a firm grasp of the psychology involved in the art of persuasion. In WWII Lansdale ended up in the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), precursor of the CIA, which was run by the legendary William "Wild Bill" Donovan. This fish had found his water. After the war he moved into the newest branch of the military, the Air Force, which served as cover for his overseas activities. (Even late in life, he was loath to acknowledge he'd been in the CIA.) Lansdale soon found himself posted in the Philippines, which was facing an increasingly powerful communist uprising called the Huk Rebellion.


The Filipino government and military were responding in ways that were fueling the insurgency, especially by killing numerous civilians in the fight against the rebels. Lansdale quickly grasped that these kinds of responses to a skillful guerrilla enemy, one that also employed effective propaganda, was a formula for a bloody defeat.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2018/02/13/astonishing-story-of-the-one-man-who-could-have-spared-us-our-vietnam-war-tragedy/#972b7ae485a1

Wiki bio of the Philippine leader: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Magsaysay
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Barry Pollard on August 07, 2018, 09:16:10 PM
Two of the more craziest things in my opinion.
We train them to fight, to shoot, to hate and magically, to fly.
On the very day, we impliment a radar system for them to coordinate, respond and react to targets more accurately, our top Vietnamese pilot
goes and bombs Diem's palace.  So sad.
One little kicker, some "innocents" were killed in the attack, one just happened to be on a nearby building watching it all,
a US citizen, rather interestingly referred to as a Operative(or a word of that nature), anyone know more?

The other is the French, the root of whole problem.
They'd just been colonized for 4 years by the Nazis, giving them a great taste of what it feels like, just imagine it, controlled by the Nazis.
Their first move after the dust from D Day settles is to do to others what the Nazis did to them.
Of course it was wrong to help them Ed, couldn't have been more wrong.

Lastly, who is that giving him a medal in the photo behind Ed which has pride of place for the interview?
Yes, no prizes for guessing, only the biggest warmonger of his generation.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Robert Reeves on August 09, 2018, 07:11:39 PM
Lansdale receiving a medal from another warmonger

(https://s22.postimg.cc/fyywlzd8x/700lansdalenixon.jpg)
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Barry Pollard on August 10, 2018, 01:46:22 AM
^For his work with and settling in Diem correct?  Around '56?
Tricky hadn't even gotten his pants off yet but yes.

Also Richard, I did just watch one of Max Boot's book talks on Ed so thanks for the heads up.
Max is easy to listen to which always helps, pehaps a wee bit conformist but what can you do?
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Robert Reeves on August 11, 2018, 12:18:15 AM
^For his work with and settling in Diem correct?  Around '56?
Tricky hadn't even gotten his pants off yet but yes.



I'm not 100% sure which medal Lansdale is receiving from tricky dicky. A couple of obituary write ups mention Lansdale was awarded two Distinguished Service Medals.

Quote
Gen. Lansdale received two Distinguished Service Medals for work in developing counterinsurgency tactics in Vietnam and for services as adviser to Magsaysay in the Philippines.
above from wapo -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1987/02/24/edward-lansdale-prototype-for-ugly-american-dies/d2ff2042-05c8-4f1d-b12d-972bf8338b14/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.68356d6e4c99

below from -- https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/48264

Quote
AWARDED FOR ACTIONS
DURING Cold War
Service: Air Force
GENERAL ORDERS:
Department of the Air Force, General Orders No. 69 (1956)

CITATION:
(Citation Needed) - SYNOPSIS: Colonel Edward G. Lansdale (AFSN: 2534A), United States Air Force, was awarded the Air Force Distinguished Service Medal (Army Design) for exceptionally meritorious and distinguished services to the Government of the United States, in a duty of great responsibility as Assistant to the Secretary of Defense in matters of great importance Indo-China during the period from 1954 to 1956. The singularly distinctive accomplishments of General Lansdale and his dedicated contributions in the service of his country reflect the highest credit upon himself and the United States Air Force.

Seeing that picture of Nixon doing the 'honors' of awarding Lansdale his medal kinda brings it home how chummy Nixon & Lansdale's relationship probably was. You don't really see it mentioned by anyone, the relationship between the two.

Nixon would have obviously been well aware of Lansdale's abilities for: 1. wiping people off the planet 2. being an expert Kingmaker.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 11, 2018, 01:50:11 PM
I'm not 100% sure which medal Lansdale is receiving from tricky dicky. A couple of obituary write ups mention Lansdale was awarded two Distinguished Service Medals.
above from wapo -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1987/02/24/edward-lansdale-prototype-for-ugly-american-dies/d2ff2042-05c8-4f1d-b12d-972bf8338b14/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.68356d6e4c99

below from -- https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/48264

Seeing that picture of Nixon doing the 'honors' of awarding Lansdale his medal kinda brings it home how chummy Nixon & Lansdale's relationship probably was. You don't really see it mentioned by anyone, the relationship between the two.

Nixon would have obviously been well aware of Lansdale's abilities for: 1. wiping people off the planet 2. being an expert Kingmaker.

Any backup to the above? That just seems like slander. Nothing to back this up except the words of people like Fletcher Prouty. If no backup, really, slander by the CTers; another thing that seems to make their views less viable.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 11, 2018, 02:03:40 PM
Kennedy tried to have Castro killed, that is virtually undeniable, despite revisionism, some say he had Diem overthrown and if we throw out the same tawdry rumors as the CTers say, perhaps, we could say Marilyn was intentionally killed.
Quote
Most egregiously, in 1963, Washington decided to overthrow Diem, a nationalist if flawed leader. Lansdale had warned that years of political chaos would follow, as indeed they did.

Lansdale was onto something. For all his flaws, Diem probably would have led a more stable, tougher government than the ones that followed his. In this environment, the United States may have been less compelled to deploy hundreds of thousands of soldiers and Marines. “At the very least the war’s loss would have been less painful all around if Lansdale’s advice had been heeded,” Boot writes. “He had never wanted to see half a million American troops thrashing around Vietnam, suffering and inflicting heavy casualties. His approach, successful or not, would have been more humane and less costly.”

Boot’s broader message is that skilled, locally savvy advisors could have yielded better results not just in Vietnam — but also in America’s more recent wars. A major shortcoming in Iraq and Afghanistan was the lack of on-the-ground leaders with Lansdale’s level of local knowledge and people skills, Boot contends. In his view, there was no Lansdale-like rapport with national leaders. In sharp contrast to Lansdale’s privileged ties to Magsaysay and Diem, the United States had poor relationships with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and Afghan President Hamid Karzai, and it could not dissuade them from bad decisions that ended up fueling support for insurgents and terrorists.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/16/edward-lansdale-and-americas-vietnam-demons-vietnam-war-max-boot/

http://www.historynet.com/ed-lansdales-black-warfare-in-1950s-vietnam.htm

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/Anthology-CIA-and-the-Wars-in-Southeast-Asia/pdfs/ahern-cia-ngo-in-dinh-diem.pdf

Real talk on the Kennedy/Johnson Vietnam war. Not nut job conspiracy.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Robert Reeves on August 11, 2018, 03:14:04 PM
Any backup to the above? That just seems like slander. Nothing to back this up except the words of people like Fletcher Prouty. If no backup, really, slander by the CTers; another thing that seems to make their views less viable.

I presume you take offence, in your silly passive aggressive post's, re my suggestion Lansdale was really good at having people killed?? -- even though you've been posting about Operation Mongoose ... which Lansdale was tasked with overseeing. Aka, the guy you take offence to being described as a killer was given the task to kill/remove Castro, by any means.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Richard Rubio on August 11, 2018, 05:27:17 PM
Per Michael Walton (forum member and from the other forum), the alleged Lansdale with the 3 tramps, well, that guy is wearing glasses, good luck if one can prove Lansdale wore glasses.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxczd5THIwOEpiY2c/view

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/zvSkVHr92D2067VpV2l_RIWJuNN6U9VCzo2Ilavz0ILtALb6LGKHOIxbLBxxmaIaNziB515vCuTAj-E=w1024-h615)

Lansdale kicked Prouty back to the airforce.  Prouty may have had some sour grapes with Lansdale.  One would have to read into it. Any photos of Lansdale with glasses anyone?

What a sharp graphic, thank you Michael.
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Robert Reeves on August 11, 2018, 09:14:09 PM
Per Michael Walton (forum member and from the other forum), the alleged Lansdale with the 3 tramps, well, that guy is wearing glasses, good luck if one can prove Lansdale wore glasses.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxczd5THIwOEpiY2c/view

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/zvSkVHr92D2067VpV2l_RIWJuNN6U9VCzo2Ilavz0ILtALb6LGKHOIxbLBxxmaIaNziB515vCuTAj-E=w1024-h615)

Lansdale kicked Prouty back to the airforce.  Prouty may have had some sour grapes with Lansdale.  One would have to read into it. Any photos of Lansdale with glasses anyone?

What a sharp graphic, thank you Michael.

Well, Sterling Seagrave, who knew Lansdale - he stated that Lansdale sometimes wore glasses.

Quote
Antti ~

That sure looks like Lansdale's skull and hairline. He had a very pronounced facial and skull structure. I don't know if he always wore glasses, because I did not meet him until just before the Bay of Pigs. (I had been in Cuba during 1958-1959, and had a good Cuban source who was a medical doctor on one of the invasion ships, who gave me his diary of the disaster, which I translated for the Post.) Lansdale did wear glasses then, with a "bridle" or whatever those straps are called to keep them around your neck, and I could swear that the man in this photo Peter posted has such a bridle dangling behind his ears toward his collar. I'm sure that Fletcher Prouty was able to judge based on this view alone. I have other reasons for taking Fletcher seriously. He was a remarkably good source for me when I was at The Washington Post (1962-1965), on a wide range of investigations not having anything to do with Lansdale. And he continued to be an excellent source for my book The Marcos Dynasty, since Prouty flew VIPs back and forth between Washington and Manila, was an insider on the cocktail circuit in Georgetown, and spent so many years as liaison between the DIA and CIA.

Sterling

from LINK DELETED: Links To websites which contain materials or links to materials which are unsuitable for viewing by minors is forbidden/topic/13678-edward-lansdale/?do=findComment&comment=159598 (http://LINK DELETED: Links To websites which contain materials or links to materials which are unsuitable for viewing by minors is forbidden/topic/13678-edward-lansdale/?do=findComment&comment=159598)

For whatever reasons, and there are some legit, you don't hold up Prouty as much cop. That he isn't worthy of opinion re Lansdale, even though he knew Lansdale since the 40's. They shared an office at the Pentagon for 8 years. But Seagrove seems to take Prouty's word as probably being fact. You might be surprised but I am not even sure what Prouty is up to when it comes to Lansdale. I don't see where he steered conclusive proof of Lansdale being in Dealey Plaza. I find the side view of a man that looks more like Lansdale to be more credible.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/6dc9vivf5/500.jpg)

The entire Lansdale topic at the Robin Trower gig is very interesting LINK DELETED: Links To websites which contain materials or links to materials which are unsuitable for viewing by minors is forbidden/topic/13678-edward-lansdale/
Title: Re: Ed Lansdale, prototype of the "Ugly American"
Post by: Barry Pollard on August 13, 2018, 12:42:27 AM
Neither hero or villain IMHO, just a man serving his country and president.
The chief says go wipe out that village and you do it, or you resign, simple.
Capturing the hearts and minds of the people has a darker side and in the end it all boiis down to one thing.
Remember that time when you heard for the first time that your country interfered with the natural progress of another?
That's it, the one thing.
So instead of dropping napalm he dropped leaflets, leaflets that terrified people, or got them riled up, angry and turning against their neighbors,
anything he could do to install another client, so we could bleed the country dry and repress the peasants. What a guy.

I'd like to know what Max Boot learnt about Mongoose.
He claims thier operations were wrapped up during the CMC and I thought... wth is he talking about?
He also said Ed didn't want that job but ultimately "how do you say no to the Pres'?".

Also, recieving a medal for "interfering in other nations affairs", or for "installing clients and dictators in places where they're not wanted" will not be in the memos. :)