What did SS agent Roy Kellerman mean when he testified that a flurry of shells came into Kennedy's limousine?
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.
LATER in his testimony he referred to a flurry of shots...
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Is this evidence of a conspiracy??
Is this evidence of a conspiracy??
Again, here is Roy Kellerman's testimony...
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
When you read the questioning of Spector and Ford, it really appears to be a good case of leading the witness into affirming only two or three shots, not trying to clarify his testimony.... Two is not a flurry... and of course, IMO....
and of course, IMO....
Silencers were regularly used by agents of the United States Office of Strategic Services, who favored the newly designed High Standard HDM .22 Long Rifle pistol during World War II.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silencer_(firearms)#History
CZ 452 bolt-action rimfire rifle with silencer
Brilliant, so you go to great trouble to setup your Patsy who was high and behind and then for some unknown reason you have a shooter in the opposite direction, surrounded by open area and to top it off uses completely different ballistics, in what possible universe does that make sense?
JohnM
Freeman and his ilk went to TrumpU
What did SS agent Roy Kellerman mean when he testified that a flurry of shells came into Kennedy's limousine?
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.
LATER in his testimony he referred to a flurry of shots...
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Is this evidence of a conspiracy??
Here's a good start on the meaning of flurry...
a number of things arriving or happening during the same period.
"a flurry of editorials hostile to the administration"
synonyms: spate, wave, flood, deluge, torrent, stream, tide, avalanche;
If SS agent Kellerman's testimony was taken seriously, the WC would have responded differently... Instead, they tried to lead the witness with hints and suggestions to coerce him to say he meant two shots, instead of a "flurry of shots."
And again, two does not equal flurry... and note, he used the word at least twice in his testimony...
Also, two is not a wave or a flood or a deluge or a torrent or an avalanche...
That was Harvey cranking that creaky old action bolt as fast as he could, alright. Scoring bulls eye after bulls eye. Beating just about every expert who's ever tried it - and those experts had the advantage of doing it in controlled environments and at stationary targets no less.
Yep, old Harvey was a real sharpshooter raining down those flurry of shells/fragments.
/s/
When Kellerman said "flurry of shots" and "flurry of shells", he obviously meant a few fragments.
Whatever it takes...
Another Royell Storing like response, do you honestly believe that Kellerman saw the individual bullets enter the Limo? LOL!
He said what he said.
Mr. BALL - How many shots did you hear?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Three distinct shots.
Mr. BALL - How were they spaced?
Mr. WEITZMAN - First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously.
Mr. BALL - You mean the first and then there was a pause?
Mr. WEITZMAN - There was a little period in between the second and third shot.
Mr. BALL - What was the longest, between the first and second or the second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Between the first and second shot.
Yep, just another eyewitness.
JohnM
That's right. Just another witness who just so happens to contradict the official story.
That's right. Just another witness who just so happens to contradict the official story.
Yes, an impossibility with bolt action... and testimony from one Special Agent refers to the shots coming in, in "very rapid succession" and another Special Agent testifies that they were coming in "quick succession."
Here's a good start on the meaning of flurry...
a number of things arriving or happening during the same period.
"a flurry of editorials hostile to the administration"
synonyms: spate, wave, flood, deluge, torrent, stream, tide, avalanche;
If SS agent Kellerman's testimony was taken seriously, the WC would have responded differently... Instead, they tried to lead the witness with hints and suggestions to coerce him to say he meant two shots, instead of a "flurry of shots."
And again, two does not equal flurry... and note, he used the word at least twice in his testimony...
Also, two is not a wave or a flood or a deluge or a torrent or an avalanche...
Clear lack of critical thinking skills. The issue is what Kellerman believed flurry meant not what a dictionary says it means. Are you trying to say that everyone has a clear meaning on what flurry means?
I doubt Kellerman looked at a dictionary before he testify to find the exact meaning of the word flurry.
Clear lack of critical thinking skills. The issue is what Kellerman believed flurry meant not what a dictionary says it means. Are you trying to say that everyone has a clear meaning on what flurry means?
I doubt Kellerman looked at a dictionary before he testify to find the exact meaning of the word flurry.
Yep, just another eyewitness.
JohnM
Like I said a while back, YOU would Never get seated on a jury due to your immediately discrediting ALL eyewitness testimony. Likewise, your evaluating/judging the JFK Assassination. YOU are prejudiced.
As Royell ignores all the witnesses who said there were less than four shots, and there was no flurry of shots.
As Royell ignores all the witnesses who said there were less than four shots, and there was no flurry of shots.
Mytton is on record as to ALL eyewitness testimony being unreliable.
Let's not ignore Kellerman as a witness...
Kellerman was the head SA on site that day...
He used the word "flurry" twice in his testimony...
He was actually sitting in Kennedy's limousine when JFK was shot...
Those facts alone should weigh Kellerman's testimony heavy in the balance...
Kellerman never said he heard more than three shots. He used a vague word like flurry that you are trying to make something out of.
Of all the jamming square pegs into round holes that Ct's do one of my favorites is trying to build up a witness to make it seem like he could not be wrong. In this case you are doing it by claiming that Kellerman being the head SA on the site that day is supposed to mean something regarding his reliability about how many shots were fired. Like being head SA has anything to do with it. LIke they have training in that or even if training for that would be possible. CT's do the same things with the cops who were near. Like a cop has to be more reliably than anyone else there about exactly what happened.
They also do it if someone was close to the limo like whoever is the closest should be considered the most reliable.
Actually, in a court of law, proximity to events means something.
And so does a person's training...
And so do the words a person uses...
That would be up to a jury to decide. Not sure why anyone would make the claim that standing closer to the limo somehow gives you better insight on how many shots were fired.
Kellerman was trained to be able to tell how many shots there were? Describe that training please.
Kellerman never said he heard more than three shots.
Whether the 'flurry' was two shots or more seems to miss a more basic issue. The time between shots is what makes it improbable that he would call it a flurry. Also I believe his first account of this was " A flurry of shells, "all at once".
This is pure comedy. So how about identifying where the flurry ended up . This has to be the worse "crew" of assassins ever assembled 5-6-7-8 shots , a flurry, shots shells whatever . All these shots and only ONE hits the target. Would make one think that a marginal shooter with a bad rifle was taking the shots.
Not sure how a Bolt Action Carcano rifle would be capable of rendering a "Flurry" of shots/shells, even if the 1st bullet/shot was already in the chamber. If a soldier was inside a fox hole and recalled that a "flurry" of shells/shots were raining down on him, my initial thought would Not be that he was referencing 2 shots from a Bolt Action rifle. The use of the word "flurry" implies either, (1) Multiple shooters, and or (2) Automatic or Semi-Automatic weapon(s) being used.
*** A Need To Reconcile These Two Narratives? ***
I am sure, a "flurry of shells" was heard during World War I and before.
Consider that the men on the Fifth floor heard shell casings drop on the floor above them. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and the other man, one can double-check what they said, at least Norman attested to this. One might be able to reconcile these two tales about the bullet casings.
This is pure comedy. So how about identifying where the flurry ended up . This has to be the worse "crew" of assassins ever assembled 5-6-7-8 shots , a flurry, shots shells whatever . All these shots and only ONE hits the target. Would make one think that a marginal shooter with a bad rifle was taking the shots.
Only if that bad rifle was capable of shooting a flurry of shells all together.
flurry /ˈflɚri/ noun
plural flurries
Learner's definition of FLURRY
[count]
1
: a brief and light snowfall
We had a few flurries yesterday.
a snow flurry
2
a
: a brief period of excitement or activity ? + of
There was a flurry of trading in the stock exchange.
The incident could create a flurry of interest in safety issues.
b
: a large amount of something that happens or comes suddenly ? + of
a flurry [=barrage] of publicity
There was a flurry of requests for more information.
This is pure comedy. So how about identifying where the flurry ended up . This has to be the worse "crew" of assassins ever assembled 5-6-7-8 shots , a flurry, shots shells whatever . All these shots and only ONE hits the target. Would make one think that a marginal shooter with a bad rifle was taking the shots.
Should 2 shots spaced seconds apart be considered "a large amount of something that happens or comes suddenly"?
Agreed. It seems we are now redefining the English language.
See above, so a snow flurry means all of the snow comes down "all together", I'm not buying it.
The latter I would say. Or even 3 shots.
Read it again. Kellerman heard a noise, heard the president say "My God, I am hit", turned around to see the president's hands near his neck, and then "a flurry of shells come into the car".
Only if that bad rifle was capable of shooting a flurry of shells all together.
Yes... and he also said:
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
So... now we have magic bullet fragments... doing all these gymnastics...
Oh ya, I forgot all the shots that were suppressed. I keep forgetting those.Dang.
Ok, let's analyse "these shells came in all together", what could Kellerman be possibly describing?
So now the lame excuse is that "flurry of shells" didn't mean two shots, it meant two fragments from a single shot.
So now the lame excuse is that "flurry of shells" didn't mean two shots, it meant two fragments from a single shot.
So... now we have magic bullet fragments... doing all these gymnastics...
I like how you edit my comments into something simple that you can understand, but unfortunately for you my original comment is still there.
Btw awesome, there was a time when you said that the two limo fragments were planted or something or other, we're making solid progress, congrats!
You used more words, but that's the gist what you said. 2 fragments from a single shot and a couple of other noises that are nothing like a flurry of shells coming into the car at the same time.
Sure I did, "Mytton". You haven't gotten one thing right about anything I have ever said.
No, within a tiny time frame I said that Kellerman was confronted with;
OMG not another word game, give it a rest for fcuk sake.
Sure, "Mytton". Kellerman mistook the distant sound of a rifle shot for a shell coming into the car. :D
How about you just stop lying about what I say? And about the evidence.
Sure, "Mytton". Kellerman mistook the distant sound of a rifle shot for a shell coming into the car. :D
How about you just stop lying about what I say?
Yawn another edit, whenever you're confronted with inconvenient evidence out come the scissors, the self deception that is on display is extraordinary.
When inconvenient evidence like Kellerman's flurry of shells testimony comes up
When inconvenient evidence like Kellerman's flurry of shells testimony comes up
I don't understand, what's so inconvenient about this testimony, what was he describing?
A flurry of shots/shells coming into the car.
A flurry of shots/shells coming into the car.
Maybe he should have used the word volley if that is what he intended to . Are there any other witnesses that back up his claim? He also said that JFK spoke after the throat wound which nobody backs. I have a hard time believing him.
Yep, just as I thought you got nothing.
Just as I thought. You'll make up any story and pretend that it's a fact. "Mytton's" Fabrications, anyone?
Focus Iacoletti, Kellerman's your eyewitness and a flurry of shells means nothing, what was he describing?
Kind of like McDonald's "it's all over now", right?
Kind of like McDonald's "it's all over now", right?
Here's where you tell us what he really meant.
Well he had to make something up that Oswald said as he was planting the gun in his waistband and violating his rights.
What a joke, violating Oswald's rights, Ffs!
How about McDonald's rights?
When I go to work I don't expect to be punched in the face for absolutely no reason and then to top it off I don't expect some lunatic to try and shoot me.
Imo McDonald showed a great deal of restraint.
JohnM
What did SS agent Roy Kellerman mean when he testified that a flurry of shells came into Kennedy's limousine?
[...]
Maybe the better question is, why is Kellerman the only person who talked about a "flurry of shells"?
Fortunately there is additional evidence which proves the witnesses like Kellerman were correct. That, of course, proves the US gov't forged evidence to hide the truth.
At 1:11 PM, UPI transmitted the fact that 3 "bursts" of gunfire were heard by reporters. Also, "Some of the Secret Service agents thought the gunfire was from an automatic weapon fired to the right rear of the President's car...probably from a grassy knoll to which the police rushed."
Other interesting things are in this teletype which starts at 12:38 PM.
https://static.lib.virginia.edu/JFK/ (https://static.lib.virginia.edu/JFK/)
I'd like to add that an M-16 at the time could fire up to 15 rounds per second. I doubt many people could distinguish that many shots in such a short time. It may sound like a single shot to some (masked by echoes), or "bursts" to others.
That would be right in line with Zapruder's testimony that he thought the shots came from behind him... and in line with Kellerman's description of a "flurry of shots/shells" came into the car... and in line with the various wounds on the president and Connally... and in line with the damage to the windshield and the chrome around it... and in line with Connally's exclamation, "My God, they're going to kill us all!"
(https://image.ibb.co/crH0m8/thumbs_up_sign_1f44d.png)
That would be right in line with Zapruder's testimony that he thought the shots came from behind him... and in line with Kellerman's description of a "flurry of shots/shells" came into the car... and in line with the various wounds on the president and Connally... and in line with the damage to the windshield and the chrome around it... and in line with Connally's exclamation, "My God, they're going to kill us all!"
(https://image.ibb.co/crH0m8/thumbs_up_sign_1f44d.png)
Well he had to make something up that Oswald said as he was planting the gun in his waistband and violating his rights.
When I go to work I don't expect to be punched in the face for absolutely no reason and then to top it off I don't expect some lunatic to try and shoot me.
Three shots. No "flurry of shells".
Which supports his testimony where he said the "flurry of shells" were two shots.
Maybe the better question is, why is Kellerman the only person who talked about a "flurry of shells"?
I posted links to a couple of other witnesses who said the last two shots were BAM-BAM or BANG-BANG or..... A significant number of witnesses reported:
Are there any other witnesses that back up his claim?
Kellerman's claim is probably best described as a flurry of shots which he later said was TWO shots. Kellerman, like MANY other witnesses, is describing the last sounds he heard that sounded like gunfire.
A list of witnesses from Richard Charmin's WORDPRESS blog that said the last two sounds were BANG-BANG
There is a pattern among the majority of the people who heard one shot and a pause then heard 2 shots that were very close to each other. If you were going by the span length between 3 shots as bam......bam.bam then that pretty much takes the Carcano out of the picture and would take many other kinds of rifles out of the picture as well from one shooter. The AR15 or its M16 on fully auto would not work either. In the USMC , the 1st thing I realized after bursting off a few rounds on automatic at night with tracer rounds was that the M16 would just shoot the next round higher than the last round like you were just walking up the tree while firing . We know Hickey had an AR 15 but it was pretty doubtful that Hickey fired his AR15 that day. If there was a headshot from the right front then that shot was taken because at the time there did not seem to be a kill shot on JFK . I still feel like the throat shot was frontal through the windshield and did not transverse the neck because of the bullet being slowed down by going through the windshield before hitting JFK , plus there were the very small leaks in JFK.s face during the embalming. We might get a few more files after "Poppy" dies but I'm guessing that the remaining files have pretty much been "sanitized" by now. You never know ! There might be a file that slips by . I'm not sure we would believe the truth if it were told to us. November 22nd 1963 will probably never be solved to a full extent of what we think really happened . Nothing would surprise me after our last election for President !
What did SS agent Roy Kellerman mean when he testified that a flurry of shells came into Kennedy's limousine?Absolutely this is evidence of conspiracy. If you look at Kellerman's position ducked under the dashboard when the shots came in, he was not looking back, he was ducking! How much talking do you think you can do (his suggestion of Jackie) in the half second interval that the shots came in and she immediately tried to leave. I would think the reaction would be more a scream in horror and get out of Dodge ASAP. if you were next to someone that clearly took a headshot at Z329/330, what would you do? Are you next? You would not be continuing to stare in oblivion at the President for 17 frames or a full second after Z313! You also know that she knew that something happened behind the sign much earlier when the President reached for his throat and no longer waved to the crowds and she attended to him up until around Z325ish. She had several seconds to digest that shot.
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.
LATER in his testimony he referred to a flurry of shots...
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Is this evidence of a conspiracy??
There is a pattern among the majority of the people who heard one shot and a pause then heard 2 shots that were very close to each other. If you were going by the span length between 3 shots as bam......bam.bam then that pretty much takes the Carcano out of the picture and would take many other kinds of rifles out of the picture as well from one shooter. The AR15 or its M16 on fully auto would not work either. In the USMC , the 1st thing I realized after bursting off a few rounds on automatic at night with tracer rounds was that the M16 would just shoot the next round higher than the last round like you were just walking up the tree while firing . We know Hickey had an AR 15 but it was pretty doubtful that Hickey fired his AR15 that day. If there was a headshot from the right front then that shot was taken because at the time there did not seem to be a kill shot on JFK . I still feel like the throat shot was frontal through the windshield and did not transverse the neck because of the bullet being slowed down by going through the windshield before hitting JFK , plus there were the very small leaks in JFK.s face during the embalming. We might get a few more files after "Poppy" dies but I'm guessing that the remaining files have pretty much been "sanitized" by now. You never know ! There might be a file that slips by . I'm not sure we would believe the truth if it were told to us. November 22nd 1963 will probably never be solved to a full extent of what we think really happened . Nothing would surprise me after our last election for President !
The Lee Bowers Story
Could it be, Lee took antihistamines, dozed offMy answer to that is this... just more speculation (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
and struck the abutment? Is it possible a sneezing fit caused him
to loose control of the vehicle? In my view the answer is YES. I
will modify my opinion when someone comes forward with verifiable
facts to the contrary.
Since the first shot did NOT echo according to most witnesses, then what does that PROBABLY mean? Obviously, it means that the last two sounds were caused by different shots. And knowing that it PROBABLy means that a powerful conspiracy killed JFK.
My answer to that is this... just more speculation (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
It's really hard to believe that two or three bullets could have done all the damage to the president, governor, Tague, and limo...
Both the windshield and the chrome trim look like direct hits... Kellerman's flurry of shots seems credible by just looking at the results...
(https://image.ibb.co/hBQHo9/Screen_Shot_2018_08_08_at_5_25_56_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/dW8Co9/Screen_Shot_2018_08_08_at_5_35_32_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/cipfap/x_30_nn_connally_131120_760_428_7_70_5.jpg)
Speculation seems to be your stock-in-tradeAnd petty snipes appear to be yours.
The above is very well done. ALL this massive damage yet we are supposed to believe it resulted in a Pristine Bullet being found? Insults your intelligence
Very many witnesses , meaning a large majority claim to have heard a longer pause between the 1st and 2nd shots and then a very short pause between the 2nd and 3rd shots . Most said that the 2nd and 3rd shots were very close together , which I think eliminates the so called shots fired from the Mannlicher Carcano ( Mauser ) which had no prints on it until a late night trip to the morgue and the inked hands of a dead Lee Harvey Oswald put some prints on the rifle . This saga is much like the 9/11 bogus story of planes crashing into the twin towers and making them both collapse at freefall speed into their own footprints and of course Bldg. 7 which was not hit by a plane but collapsed freefall style in it's own footsteps as did towers 1 & 2 . There was not one jet engine found at Shanksville PA , the Pentagon or in New York City . Sorry, but the JFK assassination and 9/11 tragedies were shoved down our throats like we were supposed to just believe them and go on with our lives . If you care to ask a Physics Professor about these events , be my guest .There were inked prints on the rifle?
Very many witnesses , meaning a large majority claim to have heard a longer pause between the 1st and 2nd shots and then a very short pause between the 2nd and 3rd shots . Most said that the 2nd and 3rd shots were very close together , which I think eliminates the so called shots fired from the Mannlicher Carcano ( Mauser ) which had no prints on it until a late night trip to the morgue and the inked hands of a dead Lee Harvey Oswald put some prints on the rifle . This saga is much like the 9/11 bogus story of planes crashing into the twin towers and making them both collapse at freefall speed into their own footprints and of course Bldg. 7 which was not hit by a plane but collapsed freefall style in it's own footsteps as did towers 1 & 2 . There was not one jet engine found at Shanksville PA , the Pentagon or in New York City . Sorry, but the JFK assassination and 9/11 tragedies were shoved down our throats like we were supposed to just believe them and go on with our lives . If you care to ask a Physics Professor about these events , be my guest .
The above is very well done. ALL this massive damage yet we are supposed to believe it resulted in a Pristine Bullet being found? Insults your intelligence
Emphasis being on Connally's "THEY're....."
It's natural to expect more than one shooter if more than one shot has been heard, especially at a car carrying the POTUS.Absolutely! Then came a 'flurry'.
Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first?http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm
Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.
Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything?I looked up the Commissions staff members and couldn't find them listed as assistants.
Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. SMITH. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. CRAIG. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge?
I reversed the windshield crack pic - then over-layed the pic onto the limo before it left Dealey Plaza - and then captured an image with the pic partially transparent to compare the crack lines...
Looks like a match, and a result of the flurry of bullets!
No wonder they tried to ship out the Limo quickly and repair the incriminating damage...
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Here's the dialogue:
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
At 1:11 PM, UPI transmitted the fact that 3 "bursts" of gunfire were heard by reporters. Also, "Some of the Secret Service agents thought the gunfire was from an automatic weapon fired to the right rear of the President's car...probably from a grassy knoll to which the police rushed."My reading tells me that Hickey's AR15-601 probly fired at 400 rpm which is 6.7 rps.
Other interesting things are in this teletype which starts at 12:38 PM.
https://static.lib.virginia.edu/JFK/ (https://static.lib.virginia.edu/JFK/)
I'd like to add that an M-16 at the time could fire up to 15 rounds per second. I doubt many people could distinguish that many shots in such a short time. It may sound like a single shot to some (masked by echoes), or "bursts" to others.
It's really hard to believe that two or three bullets could have done all the damage to the president, governor, Tague, and limo...bump
Both the windshield and the chrome trim look like direct hits... Kellerman's flurry of shots seems credible by just looking at the results...
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This discussion is a lot like Marina's confirmation that Oswald owned a rifle and stored it in the Paine's garage. She answers dozens of questions about the "rifle." On a single occasion in response to a question about the rifle, she confirms that she saw the wooden stock of "it." Obviously meaning the rifle because that is what the question is asking her about and a rifle has a wooden stock. CTers desperately latch onto to this single instance completely out of context while ignoring dozens of other questions about the "rifle" to suggest that there is doubt about the object she is describing being a rifle. Here Kellerman references a "flurry" of shots. But he also specifically confirms that number of shots that he heard. Three. Like almost every single witness in DP that day he heard three shots. His imprecise description on a single occasion as a "flurry" doesn't cast doubt on the fact that he confirmed the number of shots that he heard was three.
What did SS agent Roy Kellerman mean when he testified that a flurry of shells came into Kennedy's limousine?
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.
LATER in his testimony he referred to a flurry of shots...
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Is this evidence of a conspiracy??
You need to read the entire Q/A of ASAIC Kellerman. He argues with Specter as to there having to of been More shots. Your characterization is way off base. Way off.
Wrong.
Next time, thoroughly look before you leap. Read ALL of the Kellerman WC testimony.
Wrong.From Kellermans' report, 11/29/63: "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m.
Two shots do not constitute a "flurry of shots." Even under Specter's leading and manipulative questioning, Kellerman said that "at least" two shots hit people in the limo, and then he said, "There have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen" (2 H 78). By then Kellerman was well aware that the government line was that only three shots were fired.
Kellerman's wife said that he believed JFK was killed by a conspiracy.
We should keep in mind, also, that USPP officer Nick Principe said he saw a hole in the limo's windshield when he saw the limo in the White House garage on the night of 11/22/63. Secret Service agent Charles Taylor also saw the hole in the windshield, and he mentioned it in his report to SAIC Harry Geiglein. Four other people also reported seeing a hole in the limo's windshield.
Guys like Kellerman were approaching retirement. They know what happens to a pension when an individual gets a wild hair up their arse and bucks the system. Same goes for SA Clint Hill. I have trouble accepting anything he says when he continues peddling the narrative that the JFK Limo did NOT STOP at any point on its' journey to Parkland Hospital. CT's and LN's alike KNOW the JFK Limo did STOP at some point before reaching Parkland.Again, here is Kellerman in his 11/29/63 report: "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m.
Again, here is Kellerman in his 11/29/63 report: "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m.
Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
That is he heard three shots. Greer said three shots. Connally said he heard two shots and was hit by a third. Nellie Connally said three shots. Chaney said three shots. Hargis said three shots. Bowers (him again) said three shots. I can continue.
Nellie Connally: "The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us."
So if the shot blew out the back of JFK's head how did this matter land in front of him? On the Connallys, Greer, Kellermann, the hood of the car?
Again, here is Kellerman in his 11/29/63 report: "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m.
Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
That is he heard three shots. Greer said three shots. Connally said he heard two shots and was hit by a third. Nellie Connally said three shots. Chaney said three shots. Hargis said three shots. Bowers (him again) said three shots. I can continue.
Nellie Connally: "The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us."
So if the shot blew out the back of JFK's head how did this matter land in front of him? On the Connallys, Greer, Kellermann, the hood of the car?
You forget to include Motorcycle Officer Hargis riding on the (L) Rear of the JFK Limo. And SA Clint Hill almost directly behind the rear of the Limo. You seem to think that Hole in the rear of JFK's head should have acted like the barrel of a canon. Some of the drawings I have seen regarding this Hole show it to be emulsed. Somewhat along the lines of a gun barrel that has exploded. This might explain blood/brain matter being dispersed every which way. Also, Josiah Thompson postulated 2 shots striking almost simultaneously.
Guys like Kellerman were approaching retirement. They know what happens to a pension when an individual gets a wild hair up their arse and bucks the system. Same goes for SA Clint Hill. I have trouble accepting anything he says when he continues peddling the narrative that the JFK Limo did NOT STOP at any point on its' journey to Parkland Hospital. CT's and LN's alike KNOW the JFK Limo did STOP at some point before reaching Parkland.
The flurry of shells is connected to the head shot.
It is explained by the bullet that hit JFK's head fragmenting. A number of these fragments peppered the inside of the front of the limo, cracking the windshield and denting the chrome trim.
It's not an all-or-nothing situation. The fact that Kellerman denied the limo stop makes his statement that there had to be more than three shots all the more compelling because he was contradicting a kay aspect of the official version.
Kellerman had a vested interest in denying the limo stop, since he was in command of the limo. He should have screamed bloody murder at Greer when Greer started to slow the limo after at least one shot had been fired and heard. If Kellerman had admitted that Greer stopped or markedly slowed the car, he would have had to explain why he, Kellerman, did not immediately order Greer accelerate the split-second he noticed the car was slowing down.
For that matter, Kellerman should have immediately jumped over the back seat and shielded JFK with his body as soon as he heard the first shot--this was his specified duty in the event of gunfire. Special Agent Youngblood did exactly this in LBJ's car as soon as he heard a shot--he vaulted over the back seat, covered LBJ with his own body, and yelled at everyone in the car to get down. Kellerman did none of these things.
(https://i.ibb.co/5jrGQxr/dent-in-chrome-trim.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PWcF2zc)
That looks more than a dent to me. That fat circular shape looks like an entire bullet is lodged in there, not an angular fragment. Thus, it couldn't have come from Oswald's rifle.
There is the Hickey theory of course (which I'm not a fan of) and Walt Cakebread had this to say about it a couple of years ago:
"The dent on the chrome molding above the rear view mirror was created by a slow moving projectile while the damage to JFK's head appears to have been caused by a high velocity projectile. IOW ... TWO different weapons .... And I believe the high velocity weapon was fired from in front of the Lincoln. ( one of the high velocity bullets hit JFK in the throat)
But I want to stress the point that the dent in the chrome molding appears to have been created by a slow moving heavy ( low velocity, subsonic) bullet. It definitely was NOT created by a light weight piece of a 6.5mm bullet. The dent in he chrome appears to have been created by a 45 caliber bullet....( the diameter is the correct size) It's no secret that the 45 caliber cartridge is not a high velocity cartridge, and the big heavy projectile ( .451" dia. - 185 grain) leaves the muzzle of the 45 pistol at near subsonic velocity so it is easily silenced with a muzzle muffler ( Silencer) Therefore the discharge of a weapon equipped with a silencer would be inaudible. The big slow moving .45 caliber bullet has poor penetrating ability ( like the bowling ball) but it packs one hell of a wallop!....
Bottom line....The dent in the chrome molding was created by a silencer equipped .45 caliber weapon, fired from behind."
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2818.msg106624.html#msg106624 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2818.msg106624.html#msg106624)
What did SS agent Roy Kellerman mean when he testified that a flurry of shells came into Kennedy's limousine?What Kellerman meant was this.
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.
LATER in his testimony he referred to a flurry of shots...
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Is this evidence of a conspiracy??
With respect to the possible "high velocity" weapon that was fired from the Front: (1) The moving of the picket fence by several feet, and (2) The tall train cars that were also sitting on High Ground need to be taken into consideration.
That Train Yard remains an area that was NOT extensively filmed/photo'd and researched. I consistently have heard about the 3 Tramps that were discovered inside a Box Car. Yet, the only images I have seen inside that train yard are of PASSENGER CARS and a caboose. Where was this mysterious 3 Tramps BOX CAR located and what did it look like? And again, that is Not Officer Haygood guarding those Passenger Cars on the Darnell/Martin Films. Officer Haygood could Not have possibly covered all the ground he did and still be back at his motorcycle to make his Documented 12:35 radio transmission.