JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Benjamin Cole on August 24, 2026, 04:16:53 AM
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One of the unexplained curiosities of the JFKA is that not one but two law enforcement officers separately encountered a man in the GK area, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, who flashed a Secret Service credential at each of them.
Sure, one can assume anyone can mistake, even a law enforcement officer looking at and noting ID 11.22.
But two law enforcement officers, men in good-standing?
AFAIK, the Weitzman and Smith were in no meaningful way connected to each other, had no agendas or axes to grind, and were not CT-addled lefties.
I conclude someone flashed a Secret Service credential at Weitzman and Hill, in separate incidents, on 11.22.
There were no Secret Service agents in the GK area on 11.22, by the records and statement of the Secret Service itself.
Moreover, no one from the Secret Service ever came forward and said, "Oh, that was me on the GK. It was my day off, but I came down to watch the motorcade."
Similarly, no one from another agency, such as the federal ATF, came forward and said, "Oh, that was me. The ATF badge resembles the SS badge."
Of course, the location of the ersatz Secret Service-badge flasher, near the GK, is where credible witnesses saw a puff of smoke (Sam Holland and others) and where from many ear-witnesses thought they heard gunshots.
The HSCA, and Tink Thompson, say there are anomalies on photographs indicating a person was in the GK area, during the gunshots, and then left.
There is the unsettling movement of JFK's head post Z-312.
Add it up, and I have reasonable doubts about LNT's (and most CT's, but that is another topic).
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One of the unexplained curiosities of the JFKA is that not one but two law enforcement officers separately encountered a man in the GK area, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, who flashed a Secret Service credential at each of them.
Sure, one can assume anyone can mistake, even a law enforcement officer looking at and noting ID 11.22.
But two law enforcement officers, men in good-standing?
Maybe he was a CIAer perp!
AFAIK, the Weitzman and Hill were in no meaningful way connected to each other, had no agendas or axes to grind, and were not CT-addled lefties.
Does one have to be a Lefty to be CT-addled?
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TG-
"Maybe he (a man with ersatz Secret Service credentials on the GK) was a CIAer perp!"--TG
The CIA had facilities for fabricating fake national and international security credentials of every kind. That is not a CT.
Some CT'ers say the CIA was riddled with KGB assets in 1963, including Bruce Solie and James McCord.
Could KGB assets inside the CIA have produced a fake Secret Service credential in 1963? Who knows? It is a CT, indeed like the CT that Solie and McCord were KGB assets.
Were Solie and McCord actually KGB asstes? No records have ever been produced, either in the US or Russia, to verify that. No former KGB officer ever came forward and said, "Oh, Solie and McCord belonged to us."
Solie and McCord are not around to defend their names. Solie and McCord as KGB assets remains a CT.
JFKA CT's often look likely, but are unprovable.
Still, no one has ever disputed Sheriff Weitzman and DPD'er Hill met someone on the GK who flashed SS credentials in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, and that the SS had no agent there.
It is one reason to have reasonable doubts about the WC LNT.
Which, at the end of the day, is another theory about the JFKA.
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Some CT'ers say the CIA was riddled with KGB assets in 1963, including Bruce Solie and James McCord.
Dear "BC,"
Is someone a "CTer" if he or she believes the earth is round, that we really did go to the moon in 1969, and that LHO killed JFK all by himself if they also happen to believe that the CIA was penetrated by at least five moles (Bruce Solie, Leonard V. McCoy, George Kisevalter, John Paisley, and Edward Ellis Smith*) before Aldrich Ames started spying for the KGB in 1985?
*Edward Ellis Smith was the incompetent dead drop setter-upper and eventually honey-trapped-and-recruited-in-1956 first "Moscow Station" who'd been sent there in advance of the return-to-Moscow of CIA's spy, GRU Lt. Col. Pyotr Popov, when Vienna was to be "de-sectionized" in 1965. Interestingly, Smith, after being fired or "fired" by the CIA, ended up being a Stalin scholar at the conservative Hoover Institution, a Commonwealth Club official, and a San Francisco banker. He died in a semi-mysterious hit-and-run accident in a well-marked intersection in Redwood City in 1982.
A 2000 KGB-authorized book** (published in the Russian language) about the history of the KGB boasted that Smith was the first CIA officer it had ever recruited.
Steve M.'s and Fancy Pants Rants' bugbear, Tennent H. Bagley, was convinced that Smith had betrayed Popov to Nosenko's boss, Vladislav Kovshuk (aka "diplomat" Vladimir Komarov) in Washington, D.C., movie houses in January 1957, and that he also may have helped it recruit a never-uncovered mole (Bruce Solie?).
**A. Kolpakiki and G. Prokhorov, Vneshnyaya Razveda Rossii (Russian Foreign Intelligence) (Moscow: Olma-Press, 2000), 70.
-- "TG"
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I have never seen evidence beyond reasonable doubt that Solie and McCord were KGB assets.
It is a reasonable suspicion or deduction, but not much more.
It is a CT about Solie and McCord, that they conspired with the KGB.
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I have never seen evidence beyond reasonable doubt that Solie and McCord were KGB assets.
It is a reasonable suspicion or deduction, but not much more.
It is a CT about Solie and McCord, that they conspired with the KGB.
Dear "BC,"
Regarding McCord, take your beef to John M. Newman.
Regarding Solie, Read Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars for background, and Newman's Uncovering Popov's Mole for specifics.
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
-- "TG"
PS
Here's one of my 659 free-to-read Substack posts at "How the KGB Zombified the CIA and the FBI":
Bruce Solie: KGB Mole, or Duped-by-Kremlin-Loyal Triple Agent Igor Kochnov into Believing Yuri Nosenko was a True Defector?
Background:
Putative KGB staff officer Yuri Nosenko was a false defector-in-place in Geneva in June 1962 — sent to the CIA there to discredit what a recent true defector, KGB Major Anatoly Golitsyn, was telling CIA about probable penetrations of the CIA, the FBI, and the intelligence services of our NATO allies — and a false (or perhaps rogue) physical defector to the U.S. in February 1964.
A few days after his final meeting with Nosenko in Geneva, his primary CIA case officer, Tennent H. Bagley, convinced Counterintelligence Chief James Angleton at CIA headquarters that Nosenko was fake. He did so after reading, at Angleton's suggestion, the thick file on Golitsyn and realizing that the cases that Nosenko had spoken dismissably about were the same ones that Golitsyn had been telling Angleton about even though Golitsyn and Nosenko had worked in different parts of the highly compartmentalized KGB.
Although the Soviet Russia Division and Angleton’s Counterintelligence Staff were convinced that Nosenko was a provocateur, he was allowed to physically defect to the U.S. in February 1964 because the Warren Commission was just beginning to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, and because Nosenko was claiming in Geneva — where he was once again (implausibly) acting as the security officer for a Soviet arms negation delegation — to have been Lee Harvey Oswald’s case officer and to have just received a “return to Moscow immediately” telegram from KGB headquarters. Nosenko said he had read the file on Oswald four times — twice before and twice after the assassination — and swore that the KGB had nothing to do with the former Marine sharpshooter and U-2 radar operator during the two-and-a-half years he lived in the USSR.
Upon arriving in the U.S., Nosenko refused to fully cooperate with his CIA interviewers, and after a couple of months, the CIA decided to detain him and subject him to a polygraph exam and hostile, but non-tortuous, interrogations.
At one point, having been caught in a lie about his alleged KGB crew's surveillance of John Abidian, the security officer at the American Embassy, in its attempt "to catch another Popov," Nosenko was recorded mumbling to himself in a trance-like state, "If I admit I wasn’t watching Abidian, then I’d have to admit that I’m not George, that I wasn’t born in Nikolayev, and that I’m not married.”
Around 2010, British researcher Malcolm Blunt found a document at the National Archives that indicated that Angleton’s confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior in the Office of Security, Bruce Solie, had tried in April 1964 to talk the Warren Commission’s W. David Slawson into allowing Nosenko to testify to the Commission even though the Soviet Bloc Division and James Angleton’s Counterintelligence Staff seriously doubted Nosenko’s bona fides and the aforementioned interrogations of Nosenko had just begun.
Fast-forward a couple of years to 1966 . . .
KGB Major Igor Kochnov, posted to the Soviet Embassy as a diplomat, calls Richard Helms at home on a Saturday morning in June and offers to spy for the CIA in exchange for being allowed to recruit, or appear to recruit, former defector Nicholas Shadrin. Angleton thinks he’s fake, and, fearing that the Soviet Bloc Division has been penetrated by a mole, chooses inexperienced Solie to be Kochnov’s CIA case officer. Solie and FBI agent Elbert Turner meet with Kochnov, and Kochnov tells them that he was sent to Washington to track down and either kidnap or kill both (true defector) Golitsyn and (false defector) Nosenko. He also flatters Solie by telling him he was right to suspect that Igor Orlov — aka Alexander “Sasha” Kopatzky — was Golitsyn’s long-sought mole, SASHA. (Orlov had been forced to retire from the Agency five years earlier.)
The $64,000 Question:
Given the above, was Bruce Solie, who “cleared” Nosenko in October 1968 via a bogus polygraph exam and a specious report and was instrumental in Kochnov’s kidnapping of Shadrin in Vienna in 1975, a KGB mole?
It sure seems that way to me.
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TG-
I realize that all roads everywhere always lead back to the KGB, Bruce Solie, Leonard V. McCoy, George Kisevalter, John Paisley, and Edward Ellis Smith et al, and that John Newman suspects Solie and McCord were KGB assets. but still....
Even threads about some guy with SS credentials on the GK on 11.22...revolves around Bruce Solie.
Tennent Bagley, when informed that Bruce Solie had tried to get the WC's ear, and did get the HSCA's ear regarding Nosenko, thought it possible--that is possible--that Solie was a KGB asset. Bagley was not convinced. Bagley also said that LHO was a witting asset in Russia.
I will credit Bagley with having about 100 times the perspective on Solie that CIA outsiders have, people who never even met Solie. Bagley said it is possible Solie had been turned. Maybe so.
I will defer to Bagley. I never worked a day inside the CIA, or any other intel outfit. Bagley tangled with Solie for years, and held him in low regard.
OTOH, where are the KGB'ers who could confirm Solie was bent? None have ever surfaced. No documents ever revealed. No tapped phone calls, no witnessed meetings with KGB'ers. Nothing.
Solie as KGB asset is a CT.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
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Even threads [plural?] about some guy [allegedly] with Secret Service credentials on the Grassy Knoll on 11.22.63 revolve around Bruce Solie.
You're the perp who brought him up.
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One of the unexplained curiosities of the JFKA is that not one but two law enforcement officers separately encountered a man in the GK area, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, who flashed a Secret Service credential at each of them.
Sure, one can assume anyone can mistake, even a law enforcement officer looking at and noting ID 11.22.
But two law enforcement officers, men in good-standing?
AFAIK, the Weitzman and Hill were in no meaningful way connected to each other, had no agendas or axes to grind, and were not CT-addled lefties.
I conclude someone flashed a Secret Service credential at Weitzman and Hill, in separate incidents, on 11.22.
There were no Secret Service agents in the GK area on 11.22, by the records and statement of the Secret Service itself.
Moreover, no one from the Secret Service ever came forward and said, "Oh, that was me on the GK. It was my day off, but I came down to watch the motorcade."
Similarly, no one from another agency, such as the federal ATF, came forward and said, "Oh, that was me. The ATF badge resembles the SS badge."
Of course, the location of the ersatz Secret Service-badge flasher, near the GK, is where credible witnesses saw a puff of smoke (Sam Holland and others) and where from many ear-witnesses thought they heard gunshots.
The HSCA, and Tink Thompson, say there are anomalies on photographs indicating a person was in the GK area, during the gunshots, and then left.
There is the unsettling movement of JFK's head post Z-312.
Add it up, and I have reasonable doubts about LNT's (and most CT's, but that is another topic).
In addition, there Officer Joe Smith's encounter with a man on the grassy knoll less than 40 seconds after the shooting who showed him Secret Service credentials and who prevented him from going farther. The HSCA established that there were no Secret Service agents in the plaza after the motorcade left.
Moreover, let's not forget that Officer D. V. Harkness reported that he encountered two men in suits in the rear of the TSBD shortly after the shooting and that the men told him they were Secret Service agents. Thus, one cannot say that Harkness misidentified an ID badge that was shown to him, which is what Posner and other WC apologists say happened in the case of Officer Smith. Harkness specified that the two men told him they were Secret Service.
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Bagley said that LHO was a witting asset in Russia.
Given the context -- Malcolm Blunt's showing Bagley some CIA documents that indicated that all of the incoming non-CIA cables on Oswald's defection went to Solie's office in the Office of Security instead of where they would have normally gone (the Soviet Russia Division) -- Bagley said in so many words that since that sort of re-routing had to be arranged in advance, someone in the CIA must have sent Oswald to Moscow, and therefore Oswald must have known he was being sent to Moscow by someone in the CIA . . . and as a "dangle" in a mole hunt.
The only question is: was he sent on an America-protecting kind of mole hunt, or one designed to protect a KGB mole by getting it to focus on the wrong part of the CIA?
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Joe Smith, not Hill. Witness Malcom Summers also saw that agent. Smith were guarding the TSBD entrance a few minutes later with his colleague W.E. Barnett who told a researcher friend of mine that Smith's story was BS.
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(https://postimg.cc/TKFhpC8J)
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(http://[url=https://postimg.cc/TKFhpC8J][img]https://i.postimg.cc/VNLtZVDp/Screen-Shot-2569-04-24-at-12-35-07.png)[/url][/img]
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This is an interesting piece regarding the potential SS agents in Dealey Plaza:
https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/phony-secret-service-agents-by-debra-conway.pdf
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One of the unexplained curiosities of the JFKA is that not one but two law enforcement officers separately encountered a man in the GK area, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, who flashed a Secret Service credential at each of them.
Sure, one can assume anyone can mistake, even a law enforcement officer looking at and noting ID 11.22.
But two law enforcement officers, men in good-standing?
AFAIK, the Weitzman and Smith were in no meaningful way connected to each other, had no agendas or axes to grind, and were not CT-addled lefties.
I conclude someone flashed a Secret Service credential at Weitzman and Hill, in separate incidents, on 11.22.
There were no Secret Service agents in the GK area on 11.22, by the records and statement of the Secret Service itself.
Moreover, no one from the Secret Service ever came forward and said, "Oh, that was me on the GK. It was my day off, but I came down to watch the motorcade."
Similarly, no one from another agency, such as the federal ATF, came forward and said, "Oh, that was me. The ATF badge resembles the SS badge."
Of course, the location of the ersatz Secret Service-badge flasher, near the GK, is where credible witnesses saw a puff of smoke (Sam Holland and others) and where from many ear-witnesses thought they heard gunshots.
The HSCA, and Tink Thompson, say there are anomalies on photographs indicating a person was in the GK area, during the gunshots, and then left.
There is the unsettling movement of JFK's head post Z-312.
Add it up, and I have reasonable doubts about LNT's (and most CT's, but that is another topic).
Joe Smith, DV Harkness, and County Constable Seymour Weitzman believed that they encountered a Secret Service agent in Dealey Plaza. They were being honest but they were wrong. The individual that they encountered was likely James Powell, who was one of the members of the 112th military intelligence group that was in Dallas that day to "augment" the Secret Service protection of the President.
WRAY: Okay. Let me ask you this question. Were you carrying your special agent ID?
POWELL: Yes, yes.
WRAY: Do you recall whether you showed that to anyone at the time you were walking around behind the School Book Depository in the vicinity
of the railroad yard? I mean, to stop and ask people anything, did you show them that identification?
POWELL: I recall that I, I basically recall that I did, because the officers were curious as to why I was joining them and I just flashed my credentials to show them. -- James W. Powell, April 12, 1996, to the ARRB.
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Powell's somewhat opaque account does not square with DPD'er Joe Smith's, or Weitzman's.
Smith said he approached the Secret Service-badge flasher in the GK area, who looked a little grimy, and then was shown the ID.
Powell also said he would have said, "I’m a special agent with military intelligence. And show my credentials."
Additionally, Powell's ID did not looked like Secret Service ID.
AI:
Identification cards issued to the U.S. Army's 112th Military Intelligence Group in 1963 did not look like U.S. Secret Service credentials.
Standard Military
Design: Personnel from the 112th Military Intelligence Group carried standard Department of Defense or U.S. Army identification cards (such as Armed Forces identification or Geneva Conventions cards), which featured distinct military branch markings, serial numbers, and service insignia. [1]
Secret Service Credentials: Secret Service credentials utilized a completely different layout, seal, and departmental identification specific to the Treasury Department (under which the Secret Service operated at the time), frequently accompanied by a specific metal badge rather than a standard military card layout.
Both Weitzman and Smith said they saw Secret Service ID, not another ID. Neither said the man they approached ID'ed himself as "Powell," or said he was from military intelligence, and neither saw the man holding a camera.
I put low odds that both Weitzman and Smith approached Powell, and both mis-read the ID they were shown, and then both failed to note Powell was holding a camera.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqnL9KGw/Screen-Shot-2569-09-06-at-08-12-25.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhTPYp5D/Screen-Shot-2569-09-06-at-08-12-06.png)
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Powell's somewhat opaque account does not square with DPD'er Joe Smith's, or Weitzman's.
Smith said he approached the Secret Service-badge flasher in the GK area, who looked a little grimy, and then was shown the ID.
Powell also said he would have said, "I’m a special agent with military intelligence. And show my credentials."
Additionally, Powell's ID did not looked like Secret Service ID.
AI:
Identification cards issued to the U.S. Army's 112th Military Intelligence Group in 1963 did not look like U.S. Secret Service credentials.
Standard Military
Design: Personnel from the 112th Military Intelligence Group carried standard Department of Defense or U.S. Army identification cards (such as Armed Forces identification or Geneva Conventions cards), which featured distinct military branch markings, serial numbers, and service insignia. [1]
Secret Service Credentials: Secret Service credentials utilized a completely different layout, seal, and departmental identification specific to the Treasury Department (under which the Secret Service operated at the time), frequently accompanied by a specific metal badge rather than a standard military card layout.
Both Weitzman and Smith said they saw Secret Service ID, not another ID. Neither said the man they approached ID'ed himself as "Powell," or said he was from military intelligence, and neither saw the man holding a camera.
I put low odds that both Weitzman and Smith approached Powell, and both mis-read the ID they were shown, and then both failed to note Powell was holding a camera.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqnL9KGw/Screen-Shot-2569-09-06-at-08-12-25.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhTPYp5D/Screen-Shot-2569-09-06-at-08-12-06.png)
You just edited it. Good for you. I still have to ask you where you get that Weitzman said that he viewed the guy's Secret Service ID card. Where?
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TN-
If Weitzman did not see an ID, I stand corrected. I will have to check his testimony.
Still, the odds of Powell being the man who flashed Secret Service credentials on the GK are rather low. Powell was carrying a camera too, in those days usually rather bulky affairs.
Powell's ID looked nothing like Secret Service ID.
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Somebody told SW he was Secret Service;
Mr. BALL - Were there other people there besides you?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.
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MC--
Seymour Weitzman had quite a day. First he encounters a Secret Service agent in the GK area, then he is shown a portion of JFK's skull, and then he mis-identifies LHO's rifle as a Mauser. Weitzman also burned his hands on a steam pipe that day.
I think DPD'er Joe Smith gave the best witness statement on the likely GK Secret Service imposter. Smith was shown ID.
My only reservation about Smith's recollection is...why would a participant in the JFKA hang around the area post-JFKA? Granted a perp might not want to run away, and attract attention, but why not walk away, as many others did?
But then common sense and logic may not apply to those willing to perp the JFKA.
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MC--
Seymour Weitzman had quite a day. First he encounters a Secret Service agent in the GK area, then he is shown a portion of JFK's skull, and then he mis-identifies LHO's rifle as a Mauser. Weitzman also burned his hands on a steam pipe that day.
I think DPD'er Joe Smith gave the best witness statement on the likely GK Secret Service imposter. Smith was shown ID.
My only reservation about Smith's recollection is...why would a participant in the JFKA hang around the area post-JFKA? Granted a perp might not want to run away, and attract attention, but why not walk away, as many others did?
But then common sense and logic may not apply to those willing to perp the JFKA.
Perp
Perp
Perp
Perp
Perp
Perp
Perp
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MC--
Seymour Weitzman had quite a day. First he encounters a Secret Service agent in the GK area, then he is shown a portion of JFK's skull, and then he mis-identifies LHO's rifle as a Mauser. Weitzman also burned his hands on a steam pipe that day.
I think DPD'er Joe Smith gave the best witness statement on the likely GK Secret Service imposter. Smith was shown ID.
My only reservation about Smith's recollection is...why would a participant in the JFKA hang around the area post-JFKA? Granted a perp might not want to run away, and attract attention, but why not walk away, as many others did?
But then common sense and logic may not apply to those willing to perp the JFKA.
It's worth noting that Haygood and CF Dodd both mentioned running into a railroad detective in the railyard/parking lot immediately after the assassination. The Railroad Police are Federally chartered law enforcement agencies, and tend to carry badges patterned in the Federal style. Railroad Dicks also often ply their trade in plain clothes. I don't think you can discount the possibility that Smith ran into a RR detective, and mistook him for a SS agent in the heat of the moment.
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It's worth noting that Haygood and CF Dodd both mentioned running into a railroad detective in the railyard/parking lot immediately after the assassination. The Railroad Police are Federally chartered law enforcement agencies, and tend to carry badges patterned in the Federal style. Railroad Dicks also often ply their trade in plain clothes. I don't think you can discount the possibility that Smith ran into a RR detective, and mistook him for a SS agent in the heat of the moment.
I don't recall reading about railroad detective encounters in the railyard/parking lot. It is worth considering. However, I still think that "Secret Service augmenting" James Powell is a better candidate for the guy that flashed his badge at Smith.
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MT-
I guess anything is possible.
AFAIK, no one has ever come forward and said, "I was the guy who met DPD officer Joe Smith near the GK. I carry a federal badge that looks somewhat like a Secret Service credential-badge."
It is possible the railroad dicks simply did not follow the JFKA case, and thus did not know they had been a source of confusion.
This seems somewhat the case of Secret Service Paul Landis. A couple years back, Landis wrote a book that said he found a slug that looked like CE-399 in the presidential limo, and then put it on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital. There is an 11/23 FBI memo to the effect that Secret Service agent had found a slug in the limo, giving the Landis tale some credibility.
In the intervening years after 1963, Landis seemed to put the JFKA largely out his mind.
Powell, from the Army 112th Counter Intelligence Corps Group, was carrying a 1960s-era camera on 11/22, which were usually bulky. I wonder if Powell carried the camera with a strap around his neck, which was common in those days. Powell seems like a long-shot to be the ersatz Secret Service man on the GK.
Neither Weitzman or Smith mentioned a camera.
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I guess anything is possible.
Yup.
In Conspiracy World it shore is.
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And in LNT land too.
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And in LNT land too.
How so?
Because Corbett and I disagree as to whether Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot occurred half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, or . . . gasp . . . about a second after Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133?
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TG-
How many times should we beat around the mulberry bush?
I have a different view on the JFKA than you do. I have cited my reasons, you have cited yours.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions. They will be as good as anyone else's.
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TG-
How many times should we beat around the mulberry bush?
I have a different view on the JFKA than you do. I have cited my reasons, you have cited yours.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions. They will be as good as anyone else's.
Some are better than others.