JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on June 24, 2026, 11:54:07 PM
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JFK's reaction to being shot through the throat could hardly be more obvious in the Z-film.
His hands fly up to his throat, but they do not clutch his throat, instead they are both curled over at the wrists with the index finger of his left hand pointing stiffly. At the same moment his elbows fly up into an incredibly extreme position. His whole body stiffens momentarily before relaxing and slumping towards Jackie.
There are many hallmarks of a neuromuscular aspect to his reaction.
When does this series of reactions begin and what can they tell us about when JFK was actually struck by the bullet?
When trying to assess JFK's reaction to the first hit, emphasis is often put on the position of his right hand as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. Many researchers believe it is already showing signs of a reaction. However, this is not necessarily the case:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y9t1zL6/z224-MPI-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ0tMPNb/JFKrighthand.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The above image (z224) shows JFK beginning to emerge from behind the Stemmons sign. His right hand can be seen in a slightly raised position and slightly closed. This position has been interpreted by some as already reaching for his throat. However, during the motorcade JFK was constantly raising and lowering his right hand to wave or brush at his hair, meaning his hand was often in this 'semi-raised' position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGsT0n88/motorcade-9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KKMxxvz9)
It must also be noted that from z224 to z225, his right hand moves downward, and not towards his throat.
It is his left arm that is key to understanding when he was hit.
The footage below (z169-226) shows JFK's last wave. It starts with his right arm resting on the side of the limo, elbow out, with his right hand reaching back into the limo holding his left hand, which appears to rest on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. He releases his left hand as he begins to wave with his right. His left hand stays resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. His left arm/hand stays in this position as he goes behind the sign and is still in this position as he emerges from it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m27kWGdH/Z169-226-JFK-close.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
When he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign (z225) his left arm is still down by his side but there is a hint of movement. By z226 his left elbow has begun it's radical and extreme movement up to it's fullest extent.
In the clip below (z224-226) we see his left hand still resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side but obscured by the top of the limo door (z224). In the next frame there is a slight movement of his left arm and hand (z225). In the final frame his elbow comes into view from behind the limo door, his hand clearly moving to his throat (z226):
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzKmSt4Y/z224-226-gif-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
The first hint of a physical sign of JFK reacting to being shot can be seen in z225.
How soon before this had the bullet passed through his body?
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Cavitation is an effect where a bullet passing through soft tissue, as demonstrated in the video below:
It isn't just the bullet that causes damage when it passes through a body. Cavitation can have an equally devastating effect on the tissue and, in particular nerves. When the bullet passes through JFK's neck, there is the damage caused by the bullet and damage caused by cavitation. The bullet passes through an area called the Brachial Plexus, an area dense in nerves coming out of the spinal column. In the diagram below the red dot represents the approximate position the bullet enters his upper back/lower neck:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvJphB7x/brachial-plexus-jpg-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Comments from Dr. Robert Artwohl explaining why we saw the arms stiffening upward.
“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”
"Comments from neurologist Dr. Strully in a letter sent by Dr. Strully to Dr. Robert Artwohl, dated April 9, 1994 as to an even greater possible extent of the muscle contractions:
"Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck. This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck. This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last. All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment…” [posted by Brian Roselle]
The effect of cavitation causes an "instantaneous" contraction of all the arm muscles. This is clearly seen in the Z-film as JFK's elbows fly up to their highest point and the top half of his body appears to momentarily stiffen. It is a radical, extreme and instantaneous reflex reaction caused by the wholesale damage of nerves in the Brachial Plexus.
How quickly is "instantaneous" for a reflex reaction:
"While human reaction times tend to require hundreds of milliseconds, "One of the fastest [neural feedback] loops is from arm sensors to spinal cord and back out to arm muscles: it takes 110 milliseconds for feedback corrections to be made to an arm movement." (William H. Calvin, "The unitary hypothesis: A common neural circuitry for novel manipulations, language, plan-ahead, and throwing?" in Tools, Language, and Cognition in Human Evolution, edited by Kathleen R. Gibson and Tim Ingold. Cambridge University Press, pp. 230-250, [1993].)
So there could already be a reaction of a subject's arms in as early as 110 milliseconds, the equivalent of two Zapruder frames. But, of course, with JFK and Gov. Connally shot between 223 and 224, we should not be able to discern a significant reaction before frame 226. While only a few milliseconds later, this would still be too late.
However, an experiment cited by conspiracist Milicent Cranor demonstrates that even less time may be required.
Cranor summarizes a study published in the British journal, Brain (Brown P, Rothwell JC, Thompson PD, Britton TC, Day BL, and Marsden CD. New observations on the normal auditory startle reflex in man. Brain 1991; 114:1891-1902):
Auditory Stimulus Response Times in Milliseconds (m/s)
The following figures come from a study by Brown et al, published in the British journal, Brain. The authors tested the latency period (time it takes to respond) of the auditory startle reflex in 12 healthy volunteers ranging in age from 18 to 80 years. While relaxing in a chair, the subjects were randomly treated about every 20 minutes to a tone burst of 124 decibels, the equivalent BANG! of a car backfire 20 feet away. The average latency period of the relevant muscle groups in milliseconds:
Neck: 58 m/s (range 40-136 m/s)
Paraspinal muscles: 60 m/s (range: 48-120 m/s)
Forearm Flexors: 82 m/s (range: 60-200 m/s)
Forearm Extensors: 73 m/s (range 62-173 m/s)
Thumb: 99 m/s (range 75-179 m/s)
Back of Hand: 99 m/s (range 72-176 m/s)
The authors concluded:
"The most generalized startle response to the standard sound stimulus employed consisted of eye closure, grimacing, neck flexion, trunk flexion, slight abduction of the arms, flexion of the elbows and pronation of the forearms. There was considerable variation in the degree to which this response was expressed, and in some subjects only eye closure and flexion of the neck was apparent."
[See Cranor, "Neurology and Jiggle Analysis"]
The experiment demonstrated that, in response to an auditory stimulus, quantifiable physical reactions can be observed occurring most quickly in muscles the shortest distance from the brain: in the neck as quickly as 40 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the paraspinal muscles as quickly as 48 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm flexors as quickly as 60 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm extensors as quickly as 62 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the thumb as quickly as 75 milliseconds, and in the back of the hand as quickly as 72 milliseconds.
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What we know is that from Z224 to Z225, JFK's right hand was still moving down. You need enlarged stabilized frames to see that which DVP's outstanding website provides. Both of JFK's arms start rapidly upward at Z226, which is the same frame we see JBC's injured right arm move up. This is the most compelling evidence we have of the validity of the SBT. Contrary to what many LNs were arguing a generation ago, it is not necessary to believe JBC had a delayed reaction to being shot. The upward arm movements of both men were in perfect unison in reaction to the same bullet which struck them roughly 2 milliseconds apart. Even looking at the Z-film in normal speed and time without enlargements, we can discern both men reacting simultaneously.
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The first hint of a physical sign of JFK reacting to being shot can be seen in z225.
How soon before this had the bullet passed through his body?
Why not base your analysis on the evidence? Do you really know that JFK is not already reacting in z224?:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncdg36jz/JFK-reaction-224-to-225.gif)
How does the bullet miss his hands? Why do witnesses on Elm St. put it earlier (before the VP security car finished the turn; Linda Willis: while JFK was in her sightline to the Stemmons sign;just before Phil Willis took his z202 photo, as JFK approached the Thornton Freeway sign)?
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Why not base your analysis on the evidence? Do you really know that JFK is not already reacting in z224?:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncdg36jz/JFK-reaction-224-to-225.gif)
How does the bullet miss his hands? Why do witnesses on Elm St. put it earlier (before the VP security car finished the turn; Linda Willis: while JFK was in her sightline to the Stemmons sign;just before Phil Willis took his z202 photo, as JFK approached the Thornton Freeway sign)?
I see you're still allowing eyewitnesses to confuse you about what really happened.
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What does any of this tell us except that the debate will be endless?
FWIW, Cliff Varnell - he who insists the alignment of the back and throat wounds and holes in the clothing is IMPOSSIBLE! - posted a few days at the Ed Forum this graphic created by him and James Gordon supposedly showing the IMPOSSIBILITY! of it all:
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2025_03/image.png.8ddc5b3f424b9bde178cf9dc1b6b41dc.png)
Cliff said: "The HSCA cervical autopsy x-ray — authenticated by Dr. Mantik — notes an air pocket overlaying the right T1/C7 transverse processes. James had developed this skeletal model, and I asked if he could demonstrate the T1 to C7 trajectory." I have no idea what that means and don't really care, but it sounds pretty dang authoritative. Cliff has some pretty good arguments as to why the LN "bunched clothing" explanation just doesn't work.
Carry on.
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I see you're still allowing eyewitnesses to confuse you about what really happened.
Your hero and mine, John Orr, has the first shot at Z204 and JFK's first reactions at Z205. He notes that the HSCA photographic panel agreed JFK was reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by Z207. This would dovetail nicely with the recollections of the women along Elm just to the east of the Stemmons sign, who all said the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them. It doesn't seem to me to be too much of a stretch to give credence to women who were standing mere feet from JFK and who said the first shot occurred when he was "right in front" of them. The fallibility of eyewitness testimony doesn't require us to think these women were actually all drunk and staring at their iPhones.
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Your hero and mine, John Orr, has the first shot at Z204 and JFK's first reactions at Z205.
I would say John Orr has either a very active imagination or very poor eyesight.
He notes that the HSCA photographic panel agreed JFK was reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by Z207.
I'd love to know what they see that tells them that. I see JFK calmly lowering his right hand after having been waving to the few remainin spectators on Elm St.
This would dovetail nicely with the recollections of the women along Elm just to the east of the Stemmons sign, who all said the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them. It doesn't seem to me to be too much of a stretch to give credence to women who were standing mere feet from JFK and who said the first shot occurred when he was "right in front" of them. The fallibility of eyewitness testimony doesn't require us to think these women were actually all drunk and staring at their iPhones.
Oh, brother. Another so-and-so said argument. It is completely at odds with what I see in the Z-film. I see JFK acting very calmly lowering his right hand while turned toward the spectators. I'm not going to bother looking it up but I seem to remember somebody on this forum saying those women indicated JFK smiled at them. That doesn't seem to dovetail with a "severe external stimulus".
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I would say John Orr has either a very active imagination or very poor eyesight.
I'd love to know what they see that tells them that. I see JFK calmly lowering his right hand after having been waving to the few remainin spectators on Elm St.
Oh, brother. Another so-and-so said argument. It is completely at odds with what I see in the Z-film. I see JFK acting very calmly lowering his right hand while turned toward the spectators. I'm not going to bother looking it up but I seem to remember somebody on this forum saying those women indicated JFK smiled at them. That doesn't seem to dovetail with a "severe external stimulus".
HSCA report: "The panel noted that at approximately Zapruder frame 200 the President's movements suddenly freeze, as his right hand seemed to stop abruptly in the midst of a waving motion. Then during frames 200-202, his head moves rapidly from right to left. The sudden interruption of the president's hand-waving motion, coupled with his rapid head movements, was considered by the photographic panel as evidence of President Kennedy's reaction to some 'severe external stimulus.'"
HSCA photographic panel: "By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207, as he is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view. ... At approximately Zapruder frame 200 , Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus."
I have no more than a neutered pug in the fight, but on one side we have (1) the HSCA photographic panel, folks like Orr and any number of others who have studied the matter intensively, and the lying eyes of women who were standing right smack there at the time, versus (2) what John thinks he sees in the Z film. Ho-kay ... Maybe the severe external stimulus was Jackie's cheap French perfume.
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HSCA report: "The panel noted that at approximately Zapruder frame 200 the President's movements suddenly freeze, as his right hand seemed to stop abruptly in the midst of a waving motion. Then during frames 200-202, his head moves rapidly from right to left. The sudden interruption of the president's hand-waving motion, coupled with his rapid head movements, was considered by the photographic panel as evidence of President Kennedy's reaction to some 'severe external stimulus.'"
HSCA photographic panel: "By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207, as he is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view. ... At approximately Zapruder frame 200 , Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus."
I have no more than a neutered pug in the fight, but on one side we have (1) the HSCA photographic panel, folks like Orr and any number of others who have studied the matter intensively, and the lying eyes of women who were standing right smack there at the time, versus (2) what John thinks he sees in the Z film. Ho-kay ... Maybe the severe external stimulus was Jackie's cheap French perfume.
I wonder if this illustrious panel considered that the reason JFK stopped waving could be that the crowd on the north side of Elm St. was starting to thin out.. I also wonder what the qualifications were to be on this panel. The fact that the vote was 12 to 5 indicates that this analysis was not exactly a science. More of a in-the-eye-of-the-beholder exercise. The low resolution of the film also makes such interpretations quite dubious.
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Why not base your analysis on the evidence? Do you really know that JFK is not already reacting in z224?:
Yes, I really know that JFK is not reacting in z224
It's explained in detail in the OP.
JFK's reaction to being shot through the throat is for his hands to reflexively fly upwards towards his throat. His elbows hyper-extend upwards.
His left arm is shown still down by his side as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign at z224, indicating the reaction is yet to begin.
His right hand moves DOWNWARDS between z224 and z225, also indicating he is yet to reflexively react to being shot.
This is shown in the Z-film.
Why don't you accept this evidence?
How does the bullet miss his hands? Why do witnesses on Elm St. put it earlier (before the VP security car finished the turn; Linda Willis: while JFK was in her sightline to the Stemmons sign;just before Phil Willis took his z202 photo, as JFK approached the Thornton Freeway sign)?
How does the bullet miss his hands?? :D :D
The Z-film speaks for itself.
Accept this primary evidence.
We have thrashed through this at "The First Shot" thread and your arguments were crushed down to the last detail.
I'll let that record stand rather than get dragged into your endless nonsense again.
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Your hero and mine, John Orr, has the first shot at Z204 and JFK's first reactions at Z205. He notes that the HSCA photographic panel agreed JFK was reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by Z207. This would dovetail nicely with the recollections of the women along Elm just to the east of the Stemmons sign, who all said the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them. It doesn't seem to me to be too much of a stretch to give credence to women who were standing mere feet from JFK and who said the first shot occurred when he was "right in front" of them. The fallibility of eyewitness testimony doesn't require us to think these women were actually all drunk and staring at their iPhones.
JFK's "reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by 207" noted by the HSCA photographic panel has been completely discredited.
The reason the debate never ends is due to this kind of ignorance being endlessly repeated.
And which women stated that the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them? Please enlighten us.
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JFK's "reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by 207" noted by the HSCA photographic panel has been completely discredited.
The reason the debate never ends is due to this kind of ignorance being endlessly repeated.
How does one "completely discredit" a professional photographic panel's analysis of the same film that everyone is still looking at today? John Orr doesn't seem to think it's been "completely discredited." Or are you in John C mode, whereby anything that doesn't fit your preferred narrative has been "completely discredited"?
And which women stated that the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them? Please enlighten us.
I'm disappointed. I would have assumed you had memorized CE 1381 by now.
Gloria Calvery: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."
Karan Hicks: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
Karen Westbrook: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
Carol Reed: ""At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the curb of Elm Street about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass. I was with Mrs . Karen Hicks ... Miss Karen Westbrook ... and Mrs. Gloria Calvary ... at the time the President was shot."
Feeling enlightened, Grasshopper? I didn't think so.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2019/247/149407954_a7db5976-50d9-40a6-a994-1817cf2ec707.png)
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JFK's "reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by 207" noted by the HSCA photographic panel has been completely discredited.
The reason the debate never ends is due to this kind of ignorance being endlessly repeated.
And which women stated that the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them? Please enlighten us.
It seems to me that the HSCA realized their timing of the shots didn't sync up with the Z-film and his was their lame attempt to argue he reacted earlier than he actually did. One second before he was actually shot.
Maybe I have misinterpreted you past writings but it seems peculiar to me you seem to accept the reality of the SBT but you dispute that Oswald was the one who fired that shot. I have no idea how you could arrive at that conclusion.
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How does one "completely discredit" a professional photographic panel's analysis of the same film that everyone is still looking at today? John Orr doesn't seem to think it's been "completely discredited." Or are you in John C mode, whereby anything that doesn't fit your preferred narrative has been "completely discredited"?
It's incredibly easy to "completely discredit" a professional photographic panels analysis.
You simply look at the evidence yourself. It's called research.
Rather than just swallow down every lie you are spoon-fed, it would serve you better to actually look for yourself.
The HSCA panel stated that JFK's "head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife" by z207. This is the main part of their argument for a reaction before JFK passes behind the Stemmons sign.
It is easily disprovable:
Look at the hairline of JFK in the following frames:
(https://i.postimg.cc/66mKDdq2/z207.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5G31GCF/z225.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfLVYR9D/z230.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
In the top pic (z207, just before he passes behind Stemmons sign) the parting in his hair on the left side of his head is clearly visible.
In the second pic (z225, first full frame of JFK emerging from behind Stemmons) his parting is not so visible but the sweep of his hair up to it is.
In the bottom pic (z230, JFK facing straight ahead) the part of his forehead revealed by the sweep of his hairline up to the parting is no longer visible.
Far from turning to his left, JFK is still looking to his right as he passes behind the Stemmons sign (z207).
There is no head-snap to the left and, therefore, no reason to suspect JFK is reacting to anything.
Here is the photographic evidence disproving the HSCA's assertions.
Will you accept what you see with your own eyes?
I'm disappointed. I would have assumed you had memorized CE 1381 by now.
Gloria Calvery: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."
Karan Hicks: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
Karen Westbrook: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
Carol Reed: ""At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the curb of Elm Street about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass. I was with Mrs . Karen Hicks ... Miss Karen Westbrook ... and Mrs. Gloria Calvary ... at the time the President was shot."
Feeling enlightened, Grasshopper? I didn't think so.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2019/247/149407954_a7db5976-50d9-40a6-a994-1817cf2ec707.png)
I knew exactly who you were referring to which is why I made the point.
I knew they stated "almost directly in front".
ALMOST DIRECTLY IN FROINT.
Not - RIGHT IN FRONT, as you misremembered.
ALMOST DIRECTLY IN FRONT can, in no way, be thought of as RIGHT IN FRONT.
They are two completely different things. Two completely different positions.
Your truly sad attempt to pass them off as the same thing is yet another example of the dumbness that plagues your every post.
Are you feeling enlightened?
Are you beginning to see how wrong you constantly are?
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I see Jackie turning her head quickly to look at JFK at that Z190 frame and that’s JFK with hand fully up and his head turned sharply. It’s this point where Harold Norman describes as hearing the shot WHEN he saw JFKs hand up so IDK for sure if he’s just been hit there. You would think some % of momentum transfer of the bullet would cause some instantaneous movement forward from Z190-Z207 but I’m really not seeing anything to indicate that. I think Andrew suggested because it’s such a short path thru the neck and throat of JFK and no bone struck that the bullet was in and out so quickly that there was no momentum transfer enough to move the mass of the body. Don’t know for certain because nobody’s done a really good experiment with total body replicas including the arms and legs and hands.
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It's incredibly easy to "completely discredit" a professional photographic panels analysis.
You simply look at the evidence yourself. It's called research.
Rather than just swallow down every lie you are spoon-fed, it would serve you better to actually look for yourself.
The HSCA panel stated that JFK's "head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife" by z207. This is the main part of their argument for a reaction before JFK passes behind the Stemmons sign.
…
Here is the photographic evidence disproving the HSCA's assertions.
Will you accept what you see with your own eyes?
What is the difference between z224 and z225 that convinces you that JFK is not reacting in z224 but is in z225?
What evidence is telling you that his contorted face in z225 is not part of his reaction?
As far as the position of the car as described by the withesses, you need to look at all the evidence. Almost directly in front suggests the car had not yet passed by where she was standing. But you don’t need to guess. Look at other witnesses. At z225 the VP security car is well past the turn. JFK is no longer in Linda Willis’ sightline to the Stemmons sign. The limo is well past the west edge of the TSBD (Greer said it was just passing the west edge). And it is more than a second after Phil Willis’ photo taken at z202 which he said was just after the first shot.
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What is the difference between z224 and z225 that convinces you that JFK is not reacting in z224 but is in z225?
What evidence is telling you that his contorted face in z225 is not part of his reaction?
As far as the position of the car as described by the withesses, you need to look at all the evidence. Almost directly in front suggests the car had not yet passed by where she was standing. But you don’t need to guess. Look at other witnesses. At z225 the VP security car is well past the turn. JFK is no longer in Linda Willis’ sightline to the Stemmons sign. The limo is well past the west edge of the TSBD (Greer said it was just passing the west edge). And it is more than a second after Phil Willis’ photo taken at z202 which he said was just after the first shot.
What is the difference between z224 and z225 that convinces you that JFK is not reacting in z224 but is in z225?
You've already asked this and it's already been answered just a few posts ago. Are you having a senior moment?
you need to look at all the evidence
I have looked at all the evidence regarding this issue.
I created a thread to do it - "The First Shot".
You must remember it. It's the thread where your silly theory died a thousand times over.
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It's incredibly easy to "completely discredit" a professional photographic panels analysis.
You simply look at the evidence yourself. It's called research.
Yep, kinda what I thought: "John C mode," as it shall henceforth be known. "I decide what the evidence shows."
I knew exactly who you were referring to which is why I made the point.
I knew they stated "almost directly in front".
ALMOST DIRECTLY IN FROINT.
Not - RIGHT IN FRONT, as you misremembered.
ALMOST DIRECTLY IN FRONT can, in no way, be thought of as RIGHT IN FRONT.
They are two completely different things. Two completely different positions.
Your truly sad attempt to pass them off as the same thing is yet another example of the dumbness that plagues your every post.
Is English your second language? "Right in front" and "almost directly in front" are "two completely different things?" I somehow missed that nuance in my 50+ years of writing and editing professionally. We are talking about a vehicle passing women on a curb a few feet away, and you insist "right in front" and "almost directly in front" are two "completely different things." Ho-kay ...
My "truly sad attempt" to "pass them off" is yet another example of "the dumbness" that "plagues" my every post? If you operate at this level of anger over an internet discussion, it's a wonder you haven't popped a vein or two - or perhaps you have? Do your wife and dog stay out of the room while you are spewing spittle over the keyboard lest you vent your fury on them? Jesus.
Dr. Payette, having dealt with umpteen fellow lawyers trying to wiggle out of a faux pas, would hazard a guess that you were caught with your pants down (figuratively speaking, or maybe not) and have seized upon the massive difference between "right in front" and "almost directly in front" in a bizarre and comical effort to save face because you simply can't stand to be wrong. Put your pants back on - no one really cares.
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David Von Pein pointed out to me that extreme enlargements at Z225 show an agape facial expression from JFK that is consistent with a reaction to being shot. Of course we can't compare it to Z224 because JFK's face is not visisble then. Between Z224-225 JBC's right shoulder dips dramatically, possibly a reflex action or possibly driven down by the force of the bullet. The upward arm movement by both men begins at Z226.
Hence my question to Dan, which he seems to want to avoid, which was: how do you know he is not already reacting in z224? He sees a material difference between z224 and z225 but a slight change between z224 and z225 doesn’t tell that he is not already reacting at z224. And the facial expression in z225 could not have been materially different in z224.
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Hence my question to Dan, which he seems to want to avoid, which was: how do you know he is not already reacting in z224? He sees a material difference between z224 and z225 but a slight change between z224 and z225 doesn’t tell that he is not already reacting at z224. And the facial expression in z225 could not have been materially different in z224.
Other than the top of his head, the only thing we see of JFK prior to Z225 is the left side of his torso and his right hand which he had started to lower prior to disappearing behind the sign. With nothing to compare Z224 to, it's impossible to say what if any reaction JFK made prior to Z225. We do know at Z225, his right hand was still moving down. We also know that JFK and JBC both raised their arms rapidly as Z226. To me this is the single best evidence of the validity of the SBT. I know of no other valid reason why both men would have simultaneously and dramatically flung their arms upward, 2 frames after JBC's jacket had bulged out. Doubters of the SBT would have us believe all of this is one big coincidence. Right!
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Other than the top of his head, the only thing we see of JFK prior to Z225 is the left side of his torso and his right hand which he had started to lower prior to disappearing behind the sign. With nothing to compare Z224 to, it's impossible to say what if any reaction JFK made prior to Z225. We do know at Z225, his right hand was still moving down. We also know that JFK and JBC both raised their arms rapidly as Z226. To me this is the single best evidence of the validity of the SBT. I know of no other valid reason why both men would have simultaneously and dramatically flung their arms upward, 2 frames after JBC's jacket had bulged out. Doubters of the SBT would have us believe all of this is one big coincidence. Right!
Not a coincidence at all. They are both reacting to the same shot. The zfilm does not tell you that JBC is reacting to being hit by it. The evidence tells you that JBC is reacting to hearing it.
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Not a coincidence at all. They are both reacting to the same shot. The zfilm does not tell you that JBC is reacting to being hit by it.
Not it doesn't. You have to apply common sense to figure that part out.
The evidence tells you that JBC is reacting to hearing it.
No, it tells YOU that. People with common sense have figured out his reaction is to being shot.
You have some of the worst analytical skills of anybody I have encountered on the subject of JFKA, LN or CT.
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Not it doesn't. You have to apply common sense to figure that part out.
No, it tells YOU that. People with common sense have figured out his reaction is to being shot.
You have some of the worst analytical skills of anybody I have encountered on the subject of JFKA, LN or CT.
It is not my analysis. I am just repeating the evidence. Your analysis says that the evidence is wrong.
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It is not my analysis. I am just repeating the evidence. Your analysis says that the evidence is wrong.
You are repeating your very poor analysis of what you see JBC doing after he was shot. He is clearly dipping and doubling over to his right in reaction to the bullet that just passed through his chest and you think he was turning to see JFK. If that's why he was turning, why the hell are his eyes looking down to his right? Your explanation of his movements following the shot are as FUBAR as it gets.
This is a classic example of trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. You are trying to force fit the evidence to your beliefs rather letting the evidence dictate your beliefs. The only thing dumber than your belief that JBC wasn't hit until Z270 is Benjamin Cole's belief he wasn't hit until Z295. I'm sorry but you only get the silver medal for silliness in this event.
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You are repeating your very poor analysis of what you see JBC doing after he was shot. He is clearly dipping and doubling over to his right in reaction to the bullet that just passed through his chest and you think he was turning to see JFK. If that's why he was turning, why the hell are his eyes looking down to his right? Your explanation of his movements following the shot are as FUBAR as it gets.
This is a classic example of trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. You are trying to force fit the evidence to your beliefs rather letting the evidence dictate your beliefs. The only thing dumber than your belief that JBC wasn't hit until Z270 is Benjamin Cole's belief he wasn't hit until Z295. I'm sorry but you only get the silver medal for silliness in this event.
So you must think the FBI were stupid too. I didn’t make their model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMTxbm6Y/kennedy-john-f-3-shots-jan-1964-0124.jpg)
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So you must think the FBI were stupid too. I didn’t make their model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMTxbm6Y/kennedy-john-f-3-shots-jan-1964-0124.jpg)
I don't know how much information the FBI had when they made that model, but if they looked at the Z-film and concluded JBC wasn't hit until Z270, they were indeed stupid.
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I don't know how much information the FBI had when they made that model, but if they looked at the Z-film and concluded JBC wasn't hit until Z270, they were indeed stupid.
They based it on the evidence none of which conflicts with the zfilm ie. the evidence that
- JFK was hit by the first shot.
- JBC was hit in the back on the second shot after he turned around to look at JFK after the first shot.
- JFK was hit in the head on the third shot.
- The last two shots were closer together.
You think the witnesses all had the same hallucinations. Which is more stupid?
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They based it on the evidence none of which conflicts with the zfilm ie. the evidence that
- JFK was hit by the first shot.
Wrong - JBC was hit in the back on the second shot after he turned around to look at JFK after the first shot.
Right - JFK was hit in the head on the third shot.
Right - The last two shots were closer together.
Wrong
Your batting .500. That's much better than you usually do.
You think the witnesses all had the same hallucinations. Which is more stupid?
No, they had the same misperceptions. Do you think the witnesses who said the shots were evenly spaced and those who said the first two shots were closer togather were hallucinating?
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Wrong Right Right Wrong
Your batting .500. That's much better than you usually do.
No, they had the same misperceptions. Do you think the witnesses who said the shots were evenly spaced and those who said the first two shots were closer togather were hallucinating?
At least my points were supported by evidence. You just don’t agree with the evidence. Not only is there no evidence of a first missed shot, or that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK, or that JBC is already wounded in the chest at z226, there is abundant evidence that conflicts with each of those points.
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At least my points were supported by evidence. You just don’t agree with the evidence. Not only is there no evidence of a first missed shot, or that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK, or that JBC is already wounded in the chest at z226, there is abundant evidence that conflicts with each of those points.
I agree with the evidence. I just don't agree with your FUBAR analysis of the evidence. It is comical that anyone could look at the Z-film and conclude JBC was not hit until Z270.
Many/most CTs argue that JBC was hit some time in the mid-Z230s. While I disagree with their assessment, it is reasonable based on JBC's assessment. It ignores JBC's obvious arm flip at Z226 but it recognizes the obvious gyrations JBC went into following the arm flip. Your scenario is just plain cuckoo.
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I agree with the evidence. I just don't agree with your FUBAR analysis of the evidence. It is comical that anyone could look at the Z-film and conclude JBC was not hit until Z270.
Many/most CTs argue that JBC was hit some time in the mid-Z230s. While I disagree with their assessment, it is reasonable based on JBC's assessment. It ignores JBC's obvious arm flip at Z226 but it recognizes the obvious gyrations JBC went into following the arm flip. Your scenario is just plain cuckoo.
Who said JBC did not immediately fall back upon being hit on the second shot but twisted around for several seconds afterward? (answer:no one) Who said he did fall back immediately? (JBC, Powers, Nellie, Greer, Gayle Newman-all, apparently as cuckoo as me).
CTs accept that JBC is reacting by z235 because they want to believe that two shots were fired in a space of 20 seconds or less. But, according to the 45+ who swore the last two shots were close together, and Altgens, Powers, Nellie, Greer, Hickey, only one shot has occurred at that point. So the SBT does not rebut the CT scenario: by affirming, despite the evidence, that JBC has received his chest wound by z235, it feeds it.
Funny how cases are solved by key witness evidence. But, in this case, all the witnesses happened to share the same recollections that, co-incidentally, all fit together perfectly but were just imagined. Amazing.
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Who said JBC did not immediately fall back upon being hit on the second shot but twisted around for several seconds afterward? (answer:no one) Who said he did fall back immediately? (JBC, Powers, Nellie, Greer, Gayle Newman-all, apparently as cuckoo as me).
Why do you need somebody to tell you that. If you would open your eyes, you can see it for yourself.
CTs accept that JBC is reacting by z235 because they want to believe that two shots were fired in a space of 20 seconds or less. But, according to the 45+ who swore the last two shots were close together, and Altgens, Powers, Nellie, Greer, Hickey, only one shot has occurred at that point. So the SBT does not rebut the CT scenario: it feeds it.
Another of of your FUBAR conclusions.
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JFK was hit at Z223-224 approximate if we believe what our eyes are seeing when viewing the Z-film.
It’s obvious the 6th floor shooter was making stupid decisions, the primary one being to choose to shoot from high elevation at a moving target rather than a place where JFK was a statuary target standing giving a speech. Charlie Kirk was killed with just one shot from 200 YARDS away by an inexperienced leftwing woke Kook using a .308 rifle with a scope.
So the 1st shot could be Z224 , the 2nd shot 4.8 secs later at Z313 and the 3rd shot 2-3 secs after that aiming at anything particular because either the shooter was the Marxist Kook Oswald or he was a conspirator who for some reason was compelled to choose to shoot from TSBD in order to set up Oswald.
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JFK was hit at Z223-224 approximate if we believe what our eyes are seeing when viewing the Z-film.
That' always a good place to start. Amazing how many people skip that step.
It’s obvious the 6th floor shooter was making stupid decisions, the primary one being to choose to shoot from high elevation at a moving target rather than a place where JFK was a statuary target standing giving a speech. Charlie Kirk was killed with just one shot from 200 YARDS away by an inexperienced leftwing woke Kook using a .308 rifle with a scope.[/quote\\
I wouldn't second guess Oswald given that he succeeded in what he was trying to do, maybe for the first time in his life. I don't think taking the first shot was a stupid decision. True, he had little chance hitting JFK by taking that shot. He had no chance of hitting JFK if he didn't take that shot.
So the 1st shot could be Z224 , the 2nd shot 4.8 secs later at Z313 and the 3rd shot 2-3 secs after that aiming at anything particular because either the shooter was the Marxist Kook Oswald or he was a conspirator who for some reason was compelled to choose to shoot from TSBD in order to set up Oswald.
Oswald started with four rounds in his rifle. If he hadn't scored a kill on his third shot, he still would have been able to take a fourth. He determined that wasn't necessary as he saw JFK fall over to his left with a gaping head wound.
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Why do you need somebody to tell you that. If you would open your eyes, you can see it for yourself.
Because they saw it in 3 dimensions up close and with sound. You just have a grainy low quality and shaky film that is missing the sound track.
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Because they saw it in 3 dimensions up close and with sound. You just have a grainy low quality and shaky film that is missing the sound track.
With perfect recall.
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:D :D :D
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HR courses UK (https://www.theccm.co.uk/courses-page/hr-courses/) can help learners understand how human resources supports employees and organisations. Human resources involves recruitment, staff development, workplace policies, employee relations, performance, and organisational support. A structured course can explain how these functions work together in professional environments. This is important because HR decisions can affect workplace culture, employee satisfaction, and business performance. HR study can therefore be useful for learners interested in people-focused roles.
Put another way: "I never had HR problems until I created an HR department." An old aphorism, but one that in my experience has a large grain of truth.
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Put another way: "I never had HR problems until I created an HR department." An old aphorism, but one that in my experience has a large grain of truth.
I think the above would be more true about DEI departments. Companies have found that out which is why so many are getting rid of their DEI departments. Why pay somebody six figures to be a pain in the Bahookie?
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That's a very close to what happened. Thanks for not trying to put a downward angle to the back wound, as in the BS WCR. It was at an upward angle.
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One thing is certain beyond any rational, excusable doubt: JFK begins to react to being wounded long before Connally begins to react to being wounded. JFK starts to react at right around Z200, as does Jackie. JFK's and Jackie's reactions that we see in Z224 begin in Z202. Starting in Z202, Jackie snaps her head from left to right to look at JFK, and she's still intently looking at him in Z224.
To all but those chained down by the single-bullet theory, it is obvious that JFK was hit by no later than Z196, and we know Connally was hit at Z234 because he told us so after carefully examining high-quality prints of the relative frames under high magnification, which makes perfect sense because he clearly starts to react in Z238.
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One thing is certain beyond any rational, excusable doubt: JFK begins to react to being wounded long before Connally begins to react to being wounded. JFK starts to react at right around Z200, as does Jackie. JFK's and Jackie's reactions that we see in Z224 begin in Z202. Starting in Z202, Jackie snaps her head from left to right to look at JFK, and she's still intently looking at him in Z224.
To all but those chained down by the single-bullet theory, it is obvious that JFK was hit by no later than Z196, and we know Connally was hit at Z234 because he told us so after carefully examining high-quality prints of the relative frames under high magnification, which makes perfect sense because he clearly starts to react in Z238.
Now you are resorting to lies. You move up the time JFK was hit by about 26 frames and move the time JBC was hit to 12 frames later. Both are lies. JFK reacted to being shot when he suddenly raised his arms up to his throat beginning at Z226. JBC reacted to being shot when his injured right arm suddenly flipped upward beginning at Z226. You have never given a rational explanation for why JBC would suddenly flip his arm upward at the same instant JFK's arms started upward. Instead you resort to you Inartful Dodger routine.
I do agree with the CTs who say JFK and JBC were not hit at the same time. I estimate that JBC was shot in the back approximately 2 milliseconds after the bullet struck JFK in the back.
JBC could not possibly equate the time he was shot to a specific frame of the Z-film. All he could do was look for the reaction he remembered making and he gave a reasonable guess about that. The problem is the reaction he remembered making was not his initial reaction, which was the involuntary flip of his right arm which he had no memory of making. Since he didn't remember that reaction, there was no reason to look for that reaction. I would bet that had someone pointed out that arm flip to JBC as well as the bulging of his coat 2 frames earlier, he would have reached an entired different conclusion as to when he was hit. I don't think he was as thick headed as your typical CT.