JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate => The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on May 11, 2026, 11:05:52 PM
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Every time I re-engage with the JFKA community, I find myself asking why anyone cares about this stuff? Why do I? Are we self-aware enough to answer this question?
The most honest answer of which I am capable is something like this:
1. I made the mistake, way back in 1980, of making Lifton’s Best Evidence the first JFKA book I had ever read. It was so utterly bizarre that it fed right into my proclivity for all forms of weirdness. So I percolated for years, reading the occasional conspiracy tome like High Treason and regarding JFKA conspiracy theorizing as a minor cog in my overall weirdness studies. Without Best Evidence, I probably never would have given any more thought to the JFKA than I give to the Lincoln and McKinley assassinations.
2. After traveling to Minsk in 2007 to see my fiancé, whose sister had worked with Oswald, I became fascinated by Oswald the man and still am. What was he all about, what was really going on inside his head? The more I learned, the more the LN narrative seemed plausible but not airtight by any means.
3. I became more actively involved with the JFKA just about the time I retired as a lawyer. The only satisfaction I derived from 40 years as a lawyer was exercising my analytical and writing skills and kicking the butts of people who thought they were smart. Truly, that was all; the "practice of law" meant zilch to me. Internet forums, including JFKA ones but mostly religion ones, provided a nice substitute.
4. I was eventually banned from all – yes, ALL – religion forums and reduced to things like the Ed Forum. I got lucky with the Postal Money Order issue right off the bat and had the ego satisfaction of being deemed a “JFKA researcher.”
5. I never really cared anything about JFK or who killed him. Oswald? Fine, but why? The Mafia? Cool! The CIA? OK, whatever. For me, involvement with the JFKA is just an opportunity to exercise my analytical and writing skills and engage in a bit of mental jousting.
6. My little factoid-busting exercises have been a hoot, an enjoyable substitute for writing 60-page appellate briefs. Most of them have been fantastically more time-consuming than they’re worth, and I accept that they are of no great interest or value. But they’re fun and amusing for me.
That’s it for me – no higher motive or agenda.
Let’s turn to you, my fellow LNers and CTers. What’s your honest explanation for your interest?
The JFKA is so chockful of twists and turns and mysteries that I can see it as purely a hobby. Some people collect stamps, read whodunnits or do crossword puzzles, you fiddle around with the JFKA. Perhaps like me you just enjoy the jousting. Is that it?
No, that can’t be it for most of you. On both sides, LN and CT, there seems to be an emotional involvement, sometimes a near-religious fervor. This isn’t a criticism, just an observation. LNers seem offended that anyone would challenge their sacred LN narrative; CTers seem offended that anyone would fail to see what they see. If this is you, how do you explain this obsession and emotional involvement?
Lastly, it seems to me that for many of you the JFKA is something larger than it is for me. (I was 13 when JFK was assassinated, so I was probably as aware as most of you. It didn't mean squat to me, just a few days with no school.) Perhaps you have an exalted view of JFK, cherish his memory and think he deserves an historically accurate account of his death. Perhaps you think the JFKA has greatly influenced the subsequent history of the country and reverberates even today. Perhaps you hope that those you believe were responsible for the JFKA will be held accountable by your efforts to change the verdict of history.
(Isn’t it curious, on all the JFKA sites, how many foreigners are extremely active and seemingly obsessed with the JFKA? Is it for one of the reasons suggested above, or is it something else?)
Anyway, have you ever stepped back and asked yourself, “Why do I care about this stuff?” What’s your answer?
I can mentally justify my intense involvement with theology and anomalous phenomena (Near-Death experiences, for example) because the convictions I reach about these subjects have huge ramifications for how I live my life and how I view reality and possibly eternity. But the JFKA? I'm unable to see it as having much importance at all beyond mental exercise – a real-life whodunnit. Since it pretty clearly means much more to many of you, I’m curious to hear your explanations.
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For me, this is a hobby. I can't explain my fascination with it anymore than a stamp or coin collector could explain their interest in their hobby. It just interests them which is a good enough reason. The more I studied it, the more interesting it became because of all the supporting characters and their involvement. I doubt anyone but a real assassination buff could tell you who people like Bonnie Ray Williams, Roy Truly, Howard Brennan, Johnny Brewer were just to name a few. The more I studied it, the more impressed I became with the work of the WC. While they didn't answer every question, the answers they did give us were spot on. I was already an LN by the time I began to seriously study the assassination but I wasn't a believer in the SBT and spent a few years trying to come up with an alternative. It was a fool's errand. The SBT was the only explanation that made sense given the available evidence.
I doubt I have changed many minds in the 35 years I've been involved in this hobby but maybe the few I have influenced have influenced a few others and so on. I'd like to think that at the very least I have given others something to think about even if they don't agree with me.
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I think that when people feel like they have not been told the truth , it makes them want to find out the whole story whether it is what they want to hear or not .
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LP--
1. In my youth (I am about your age), I probably was fascinated with the idea of a government JFKA cover-up. And the JFA research community was dominated by lefties, so there was a tsunami of ideologically-fueled literature in that regard. I read a lot.
2. Who doesn't like a good detective story?
3. Later, I became disenchanted with the whole JFKA genre, which had become a platform---I posted often "the ideology writes the agenda, and the agenda writes the narrative." One reason I was banned from Ed Forum. This ideology as history reached an apex of sorts in James Douglass' writings, and dominates the Ed Forum to this day.
4. I see both LN'ers and CT'er weighing evidence from their premises. Arguing like lawyers in court, or PR touts, not like independent analysts.
5. Even later I became outright disgusted with the JFKA research community, which for years had made Vietnam the central issue fueling the JFKA, then decide it was really Israel, working with James Jesus Angleton, who had waxed JFK.
The agenda writes the narrative.
6. But in pondering matters, and the plasticity of JFKA narratives, I reexamined the case, and concluded the WC had in fact settled on the LN narrative early on, under instructions from LBJ to avoid a nuke war with Russia. A reasonable enough caution.
7. Ironically, the JFKA field being run by lefties, the JFKA narrative inking LHO back to G2 and KGB had rarely been examined---the very narrative LBJ had nixed back in 1963-4.
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Based upon my (admittedly layman's) review of the Z-film, and related testimony, and Gov. JBC's injuries, I concluded to my satisfaction that there is a high probability of two shooters behind the JFK limo, and a smoke-and-bang-show perp at the GK.
So, three perps. More than that? Not necessary. Could have been LHO, and a couple hotheads from G2 or Alpha 66, and G2 had penetrated Alpha 66. That's my best guess.
Like you, the JFKA for me now is just something to write about.
I take no umbrage at other viewpoints.
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I became outright disgusted with the JFKA research community which for years had made Vietnam the central issue fueling the JFKA, then decide [sic] it was really Israel, working with James Jesus Angleton who had waxed JFK.
It's funny how people who despise James Angleton (and all AI, which has been zombified by "useful idiot" authors like Tom Mangold, David Wise, Barry Royden, and John L. Hart, et al. ad nauseam) always include his middle name -- which his Mexican gave him, which he didn't like, and which he never used.
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TG-
The 1960s was the era of three names or three-letter initials or combos. At least in media dramatizations.
Lee Harvey Oswald. JFK, LBJ. James Earl Ray. Martin Luther King. William "King" Harvey. E. Howard Hunt. J. Edgar Hoover. JD Tippit. RFK. David Atlee Phillips. I am sure many more, that's off the top of my head.
James JESUS Angleton!
I wonder how many of these people used three names in everyday life.
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The 1960s was the era of three names or three-letter initials or combos. At least in media dramatizations.
Lee Harvey Oswald. JFK, LBJ. James Earl Ray. Martin Luther King. William "King" Harvey. E. Howard Hunt. J. Edgar Hoover. JD Tippit. RFK. David Atlee Phillips. I am sure many more, that's off the top of my head.
James JESUS Angleton!
I wonder how many of these people used three names in everyday life.
If someone you disliked didn't like his or her middle name, would you go out of your way to use it just to "make a statement"?
Regardless, when's the last time you said "Richard McGarrah Helms"?
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Even a matter as seemingly small as the near extinction of the vocative (direct address) comma saddens me, so I'm probably not the right person to ask.
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Even a matter as seemingly small as the near extinction of the vocative (direct address) comma saddens me, so I'm probably not the right person to ask.
You don't have to get all accusative about it.
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And yet another thread goes into the toilet because certain people are seriously mentally ill.
Oh, well, let's get back to Lamb Chop - or Lamb J. Chop III, as he was actually christened at, er, birth.
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Apologies for the disruption, and thank you for the free diagnosis, Dr. Payette.
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Apologies for the disruption, and thank you for the free diagnosis, Dr. Payette.
Certainly wasn't referring to you, Mark! I share your Grammar Police proclivities. In fact, I just noticed in my own post that I had said "Lamb J. Chop III, as we was actually christened at, er, birth" rather than "he." Not only would "we was" be a grammatical faux pas of the first magnitude, but it would mean Lamb Chop entered into existence as my sock puppet! Oh, the horror.
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Thanks to John and Ben for reasonably on-point responses.
I would have to say the answer to my query "Are we self-aware enough?" would appear to be no. This is, frankly, not surprising. I don't picture the participants on JFKA forums as being a particularly self-aware bunch, any more than I picture the pornography enthusiasts at a XXX site as being particularly self-aware (and I should know! :D :D :D). For most participants, it seems to me the JFKA is more in the vein of an obsession or addiction. There can be no reasonable hope that the verdict of history is ever going to change or that any essential cog of the LN narrative is ever going to be disproven, yet some sort of loop goes round and round inside the addicts' heads. They, be they LN-oriented or CT-oriented, simply cannot stay away from the 1,243rd discussion of the SBT or Tippit scene or curtain rods or whatever. "Hobby" scarcely describes it.
Perhaps people simply aren't interested in examining this addiction, and that's fine. Perhaps they are a bit afraid of what they might find if they did examine it, and that's fine too. This thread was just an invitation.
I question myself, of course, which is why I always end up disengaging. "Am I as nutty as these folks?" I ask myself. "Even if I'm not, are people who know me going to think I am?" - guilt by association, as it were. Are old high school and college friends or former coworkers stumbling on my posts and exchanging emails saying "Do you remember Lance, who used to be such a whiz? Have you seen how he spends his time now, arguing with conspiracy cranks on JFK assassination sites? Jesus, what do you think happened - did he hit rock-bottom and end up in some institution?"
Which is why I do engage in introspection and attempt to justify my participation as suggested in my original post. I'm above the fray, I try to tell myself. I do not engage with the cranks except to amuse myself. I mostly do not participate in the 1,243rd thread on the SBT. But still ... is this really the best thing I have to do with my time at age 76??? Surely not ... is it???
Can anyone who is at least reasonably rational - just reasonably - deny that the majority of participants on a forum such as this are pretty clearly a bit "off" and that the majority of "discussions" are so goofy as to be almost surreal? I won't name names, but some of the most clearly whacked-out are by far the most prominent participants and are humored endlessly as though what they were saying were actually worthy of discussion. Why is that? Probably, I would guess, because rational, evidence-based discussions of the JFKA would be exceedingly dull and mostly just reinforce the LN narrative, so even LN proponents dive into the surreal world of the 1,243rd thread on the SBT (or far worse).
In short, despite my statesmanlike attempt in my first post at justifying my own participation, I'm not sure I've completely convinced myself. I confessed freely at the Ed Forum that I share to some degree the conspiracy-prone mindset and that it's only my willingness to seriously examine it that has kept me from turning into a rabid 9/11 Truther, Fake Moon Landing proponent, Shape-Shifting Reptilian Alien true believer, and Harvey and Lee enthusiast who thinks Lee was Prayer Man. Still, I fear that being here at all may be telling me something I'd rather not admit.
And on it goes.
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Certainly wasn't referring to you, Mark! I share your Grammar Police proclivities. In fact, I just noticed in my own post that I had said "Lamb J. Chop III, as we was actually christened at, er, birth" rather than "he." Not only would "we was" be a grammatical faux pas of the first magnitude, but it would mean Lamb Chop entered into existence as my sock puppet! Oh, the horror.
What a relief! (I tend to assume the worst.) Btw, you obviously are an exceptional writer, and I sometimes wish I could borrow some of that fluency and clarity of thought.
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It is both a hobby and an addiction to me that I have quit cold turkey for years at a time. I first became hooked back in 1991 shortly after the movie JFK came out which also coincided with my first ISP subscription, Prodigy. I was a newbie to both the JFKA and the internet at the time. I knew just enough about both to be dangerous. In the 1980s I had briefly become a CT but shed that affliction after just a few years. I was lucky because for most people, it is a chronic condition. I came to the online discussions with a willingness to learn and the ability to apply common sense which allowed me to hold own against the veteran CTs. The Prodigy group was a lively bunch and had a few participants whose names others may recognize, Michael T. Griffith, Tony Marsh, Jean Davidson, Bob Artwohl just to name a few. David Lifton even posted there occasionally. Bob Artwohl came to that group as a CT and ended up an LN. He's the only one I know of who ever switched sides in any of the discussion groups I have participated in. Our Prodigy group broke up when Prodigy announced they would no longer allow unlimited posts. There would be a limit each month after which one would have to pay a premium to make additional posts. I don't think anyone was going to stick around so we all said our good-byes and went our separate ways.
I would occasionally argue with friends on the subject of the JFKA but it wasn't something that came up very often. In 2008, I visited Dallas for the first time not counting changing planes at the Dallas/Ft. Worth Airport. I made it a point that I was going to visit Dealey Plaza and the Sixth Floor Museum while there. It wasn't hard as I was driving up I-35 from San Antonio and I looked out to my right and there was the TSBD. I went on by and up north past the Trade Mart, exited where Parkland had been, turned east and stumbled across Love Field. From there I drove what I guessed approximated the motorcade route until I hit Harwood, turned right on Main on to Dealey Plaza. After spending several hours there including a visit to the 6th floor Museum, I headed over to Oak Cliff. I started at Oswald's rooming house and walked down Beckley to where I guessed Oswald might have turned to go to 10th and Patton. From there I took Oswald's route to Jefferson and then headed toward the Texas Theater. As I walked along Jefferson, I remember hearing lots of salsa music being played. That was about the extent of my visiting the key places of the JFKA.
That visit rekindled my interest in the JFKA. When I got home, I found John McAdams' forum on google groups and the companion unmoderated alt.conspiracy.jfk which I soon learned had been given the well deserved nickname of "the nuthouse". It was a free for all with no rules. You had to be able to take it as well as dish it out if you wanted to hang out there. I spent much more time on the moderated group where my main foil was Tony Marsh who I remembered from the Prodigy days. I saw from the archives a number of other Prodigy members but none of them were still active after I joined. I think after 3 or 4 years there, I tired of it and dropped out. Several years later, I had a relapse and got involved again. I stayed with the McAdams forum until his untimely passing about 5 years ago and since he was the only moderator left on that forum, it was effectively killed. I think it was only a few months later that Google announced they were doing away with all google groups which ended the nuthouse as well. I dabbled into a few other online forums but decided it would be a good time to drop the hobby and spend my time on other interests. That worked for about 4 years until one day I got bored and start doing searches for JFKA discussion groups and happened to land in this one. So here I am. Again.
I can relate to Michael Corleone's line from The Godfather III. "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"
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It fascinates me that one angry guy could create such a ripple in history and culture. Oswald could have made a lot of choices that day including to stand on the street as a spectator. Instead he decided to commit this terrible act. The assassination is just one consequence. I do believe that the JFK assassination let a genie out of the bottle in the US that emboldened many terrible acts. School shootings, mass shootings, and other assassinations were largely unknown before 11.22.63. Every angry loon takes inspiration from Oswald whether they know that or not. That's the real legacy.
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It fascinates me that one angry guy could create such a ripple in history and culture. Oswald could have made a lot of choices that day including to stand on the street as a spectator. Instead he decided to commit this terrible act. The assassination is just one consequence. I do believe that the JFK assassination let a genie out of the bottle in the US that emboldened many terrible acts. School shootings, mass shootings, and other assassinations were largely unknown before 11.22.63. Every angry loon takes inspiration from Oswald whether they know that or not. That's the real legacy.
It's fascinating to ponder what might have been if not for the random circumstances that brought JFK into easy rifle range of Oswald. My guess is Oswald would have find some other prominent person to kill and it wouldn't have had near the impact assassinating the POTUS did. It's anybody's guess how Vietnam would have played out. I could be wrong but I don't think JFK would have escalated it to the degree LBJ did. JFK probably would have been re-elected in 1964. I think the seeds of the civil rights unrest had already been planted and we would have had the riots we did in the second half of the decade. Beyond that, it's impossible to what might have happened. Looking at current events, I don't think Charlie Kirk would have been assassinated because I don't think there would have been a Charlie Kirk or a Tyler Robinson. I don't think any of the school shooters going back to Columbine would have ever come into existence. Would there have been other school shooters in other places. Who knows. There would have been a different reality that would completely change all events both large and small.
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At last, I've cracked the code! I understand the attraction of the JFKA, at least for me and probably for you! It's all so completely nutty that it's an antidote to the increasingly grim and depressing world in which we live. There is absolutely no reality to it! It's a welcome escape, like a perpetual Star Trek convention (in fact, eerily similar to a perpetual Star Trek convention). I thus no longer have any qualms or apologies, to myself or anyone else. Yes, I am escaping from reality! I'm donning my Klingon regalia, figuratively speaking, and hiding out in the alternate universe of the JFKA!
I had this epiphany while scrolling through threads at the Ed Forum. The most active include (1) Greg Doudna, who is sort of a scholarly Royell Storing and who, like Royell, is almost pathetically desperate to be taken seriously. He has at two long threads to the effect that Larry Crafard killed Tippit - and someone like Tom Gram, whom I had previously thought was fairly sane, agrees with him! (2) Someone named Anthony Venturella, who has the most hugely complex Lifton, Horne, et al. theory about two morgues and body alteration and whatnot and whose work is being hailed as the biggest advance in JFKA conspiracy theorizing since 1945. (3) The ultimate hoot, J. Keven Hofeling, Esq., a smalltime retired Utah attorney who ostensibly retired to "transition" to "IT, Cybersecurity, and AI consulting," who cannot say anything in less than 10,000 words with 14 charts and graphs, and who is on an absolute crusade to demonstrate the Z film was altered.
Fantasy Land, I tell ya! The problem with the Ed Forum is that the other 15 most active threads are all Trump-oriented, and I for one refuse to be sucked back into reality.
I do like Keven's self-important disclaimer at the end of every post, which would have had me laughing out loud even when I was a lawyer. The following language shall henceforth be implied in each of my posts. You must, of course, mentally substitute for the phrase "Law Offices of J. Keven Hofeliing, LLC" the phrase "Law Offices of Lance Payette, if said law offices in fact exist." (According to the Utah State Bar, Brother Hofeling has, like moi, resigned from the bar. Someone - me? - should perhaps inform Brother Hofeling that a "resigned" attorney - unlike a "retired" attorney - is "not an attorney" and that holding yourself out as such can get you into trouble with the Bar.)
(https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4we-cLTeFGz2w5k2RRZvx-BZ2FBOt9R22wN5QOHQgjD8P409ceOiqDHpRLAME9a2uyM7C2oXi6ioGdW)
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I can only speak for myself but my three-and-a-half-decade participation in various online discussion groups is not in any way escapism. I find the world to be no more and no less depressing that it was when I began. I'm a believer that things are never as bad as they seem nor as good as they seem. For the most part, I have a positive outlook on the world around me while recognizing the flaws. My involvement in these ongoing discussions is because the JFKA is a fascinating story with lots of tenacles. That and I enjoy arguing whether it is the JFKA, politics, sports, etc.
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My involvement in these ongoing discussions is because the JFKA is a fascinating story with lots of tenacles. That and I enjoy arguing whether it is the JFKA, politics, sports, etc.
Discussion and argument requires reading what the other person wrote before responding. Pontificating is not argument.
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Discussion and argument requires reading what the other person wrote before responding. Pontificating is not argument.
I've read your arguments and I am not impressed.