JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Benjamin Cole on May 07, 2026, 02:09:16 AM
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Larry Hancock, a superb and unbiased JFKA researcher, runs a nice JFKA blog.
Herein is the less-discussed LHO G2-KGB angle. (Well, see my comments in Soviet Suspects post).
https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/
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LH:
Certainly, in comparison to narratives that have somewhat become canon, that is the “CIA and/or Mossad did it,” the narrative that assets related to the KGB or G2 might have manipulated or helped LHO perp the JFKA have been less researched.
The nutshell-story is that LBJ didn’t want a nuke war with Russia, and told Warren/WC as much, thus the LN CT was born. (John Newman says this was tricky CIA’ers at work, planting the WWIII virus, so any JFKA investigation would be stunted. This is further complicated by Newman’s later belief that CIA’er Bruce Solie, a KGB asset, was manipulating LHO. Are you following this?)
Notable: The US Ambassador to Mexico, Thomas Mann, and a well-regarded State Department staffer, Charles William Thomas, both lost their jobs for merely wanting to pursue LHO-Cuba leads.
The KGB chief in Minsk regarded LHO as an asset, though perhaps not after LHO departed Russia.
Of course, LHO in September visited three KGB’ers in MC, including wet-works boss Kostikov. They all met LHO on a Saturday.
This was about the same time Castro publicly warned the Kennedy brothers that assassination attempts could go both ways. In a different time and place with different standards, the Kennedys tried to have Castro assassinated several times, and Castro knew it.
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I contend LHO likely had two accomplices or manipulators on 11.22, someone at the GK (the smoke and bang show) and another shooter behind JFK. (That is my read on the Z-film and doctor testimony, another topic.)
I doubt the JFKA conspiracy-plot was much more than that, and could have been two lower-level hotheads associated with G2 or Alpha 66, keeping in mind Alpha 66 was penetrated by G2. In other words, no instructions from above in Havana, Moscow or Washington.
What representations the Alpha 66’ers, G2’ers made to LHO—who knows?
But it is indisputable LHO’s rifle was found near the TSBD6 window, and LHO was invisible when shots rang out. A slender light-skinned male was seen in the TSBD6 window by Brennan, when shots were fired.
LHO acted like someone who was guilty, or thought he had been framed, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. LHO is a reasonable suspect as the TSBD6 sniper, maybe even the best suspect.
The JFKA research community has largely tried to totally exonerate LHO in the assassination, but that may be the wrong tack, and one rooted in ideological biases.
It is also possible LHO was part of a very small JFKA CT.
That’s my best guess.
Benjamin Cole
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Larry Hancock, a superb and unbiased JFKA researcher, runs a nice JFKA blog.
Unbiased, my-you-know-what.
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Larry Hancock, a superb and unbiased JFKA researcher, runs a nice JFKA blog.
Herein is the less-discussed LHO G2-KGB angle. (Well, see my comments in Soviet Suspects post).
https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/
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LH:
Certainly, in comparison to narratives that have somewhat become canon, that is the “CIA and/or Mossad did it,” the narrative that assets related to the KGB or G2 might have manipulated or helped LHO perp the JFKA have been less researched.
The nutshell-story is that LBJ didn’t want a nuke war with Russia, and told Warren/WC as much, thus the LN CT was born. (John Newman says this was tricky CIA’ers at work, planting the WWIII virus, so any JFKA investigation would be stunted. This is further complicated by Newman’s later belief that CIA’er Bruce Solie, a KGB asset, was manipulating LHO. Are you following this?)
Notable: The US Ambassador to Mexico, Thomas Mann, and a well-regarded State Department staffer, Charles William Thomas, both lost their jobs for merely wanting to pursue LHO-Cuba leads.
The KGB chief in Minsk regarded LHO as an asset, though perhaps not after LHO departed Russia.
Of course, LHO in September visited three KGB’ers in MC, including wet-works boss Kostikov. They all met LHO on a Saturday.
This was about the same time Castro publicly warned the Kennedy brothers that assassination attempts could go both ways. In a different time and place with different standards, the Kennedys tried to have Castro assassinated several times, and Castro knew it.
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I contend LHO likely had two accomplices or manipulators on 11.22, someone at the GK (the smoke and bang show) and another shooter behind JFK. (That is my read on the Z-film and doctor testimony, another topic.)
I doubt the JFKA conspiracy-plot was much more than that, and could have been two lower-level hotheads associated with G2 or Alpha 66, keeping in mind Alpha 66 was penetrated by G2. In other words, no instructions from above in Havana, Moscow or Washington.
What representations the Alpha 66’ers, G2’ers made to LHO—who knows?
But it is indisputable LHO’s rifle was found near the TSBD6 window, and LHO was invisible when shots rang out. A slender light-skinned male was seen in the TSBD6 window by Brennan, when shots were fired.
LHO acted like someone who was guilty, or thought he had been framed, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. LHO is a reasonable suspect as the TSBD6 sniper, maybe even the best suspect.
The JFKA research community has largely tried to totally exonerate LHO in the assassination, but that may be the wrong tack, and one rooted in ideological biases.
It is also possible LHO was part of a very small JFKA CT.
That’s my best guess.
Benjamin Cole
How can anybody who has studied the assassination be unbiased? Such a person is going to have an opinion one way or another on the question of conspiracy.
If you think Oswald had accomplices, show us your evidence. All you've ever presented are speculations. There is no credible evidence Oswald had even a single accomplice. If he had, someone would have found it by now.
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Like he said " I'm just a Patsy " !
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Like he said " I'm just a Patsy " !
Of course we should take his word on that. What reason would he have to lie?
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Like he said " I'm just a Patsy " !
"They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy".
JohnM
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JM--
LHO may have considered himself a patsy, in the sense he was "hung out to dry," or left "holding the bag."
That is, LHO participated in the JFKA, and was promised a getaway ride, and then perhaps a trip to Cuba or offshore. Perhaps a lump sum of money too.
Instead, there was no post-JFKA ride, and LHO's erstwhile confederates had vamoosed.
If LHO had been working for Bruce Solie (as theorized by some)...one can see why US authorities would have conducted a very ginger investigation into LHO's confederates.
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JM--
LHO may have considered himself a patsy, in the sense he was "hung out to dry," or left "holding the bag."
That is, LHO participated in the JFKA, and was promised a getaway ride, and then perhaps a trip to Cuba or offshore. Perhaps a lump sum of money too.
Instead, there was no post-JFKA ride, and LHO's erstwhile confederates had vamoosed.
If LHO had been working for Bruce Solie (as theorized by some)...one can see why US authorities would have conducted a very ginger investigation into LHO's confederates.
Or maybe LHO just lied his ass off.
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"They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy".
JohnM
So how does that make him any less of a patsy in the killing of the President?
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JM--
LHO may have considered himself a patsy, in the sense he was "hung out to dry," or left "holding the bag."
That is, LHO participated in the JFKA, and was promised a getaway ride, and then perhaps a trip to Cuba or offshore. Perhaps a lump sum of money too.
Instead, there was no post-JFKA ride, and LHO's erstwhile confederates had vamoosed.
If LHO had been working for Bruce Solie (as theorized by some)...one can see why US authorities would have conducted a very ginger investigation into LHO's confederates.
That sounds like a real bad idea, after Oswald was screwed by his fellow conspirators, they then allow the pissed off Oswald to be captured and potentially rat them all out, makes zero sense!
If Oswald had associates, they wouldn't want Oswald to leave the building alive and perhaps they would kill Oswald with his own rifle and make it look like a suicide, and plant an appropriate suicide note.
JohnM
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JM--
Maybe so.
But if the pair of G2'ers had met LHO and used false identities, or possibly even disguises, then even if LHO eventually spilled the beans, he could give nothing except a physical description of a pair of bearded Cubans.
In addition, possibly LHO met only one Cuban, the other being the GK smoke-and-bang show perp.
Two Cubans, post-JFKA, back in Cuba by 11/23. And freshly shaved.
Besides that, not all plans are perfect, and the JFKA CT may have been hatched on the run. They were taking some chances. Or maybe they planned to murder LHO post-JFKA, but plans went awry.
Beyond all that, some political zealots regard accomplishing the act as more important than getting away with it.
Only nine years before the JFKA---
On March 1, 1954, four Puerto Rican nationalists, seeking to promote Puerto Rican independence from the United States, attacked the United States Capitol. They fired 30 rounds from semi-automatic pistols onto the legislative floor from the Ladies' Gallery (a balcony for visitors) of the House of Representatives chamber within the United States Capitol.
The four PR nationalists did not have escape in mind.
...
Two lower-level G2'ers, conspiring with LHO, may have regarded the trying a revenge assassination attempt (payback for JFK's attempts to have Castro assassinated) as more important than getting away with it.
Not everyone is rational by standards you have, or I have.
Someone participating in a presidential assassination may indeed be a bent fellow.
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I have one question for everyone who is fretting about whether LHO was acting on behalf of the Cubans, Soviets, CIA, Mafia, etc. How did any of these entities know in advance that Oswald would end up working in a building overlooking a motorcade route that had not even been planned when he was hired. If you can't answer that simple question, I have no idea why any of you would want to go down any of those rabbit holes.
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JC--
I think the US right-wing largely went down the LN theory-rabbit-hole with the release of the WC report in 1964. In the right-wing of that era, there was a near-reflexive reverence for authority, and the WC represented authority.
The WC in 1964 struck exactly the tone the right-wing wanted to hear: a soured Marxist leftie loser lone-nut perped the horrid JFKA, but not on instructions from Havana of Moscow. No nuke war needed.
The modern-day right-wing is a different animal, and sometimes reflexively rejects authority, and so you get a different reaction to official JFKA theorizing, with just as much justification.
The agenda write the narrative.
Keep in mind you have former CIA Director James Woolsey's book, Operation Dragon: Inside the Kremlin's Secret War on America, presenting the view that LHO was a Russian operative. Woolsey was a CIA director, and a right-winger. Woolsey is a deeply knowledgable fellow when it comes to spy work. You and I are admitted hobbyists next to Woolsey.
So I defer to Woolsey or you?
As for LHO being in the TSBD, that was luck or circumstance, as was the decision to have the JFK limo make a hairpin turn in front of the TSBD. You are making the obviously baseless assumption that a JFKA CT required the knowing placement of LHO in the TSBD in preparation for the motorcade. Rather, LHO was there by chance, and G2 or KGB took advantage of that situation.
Keep in mind, at anytime in the 1960s, the KGB and G2 had hundreds of assets, plants, double-agents, agents, and informants in the US. It is legend how thoroughly Castro had infiltrated the Cuban exile community.
LHO appears to have been one of those G2-KGB assets, and he had a job in the TSBD. So he was utilized.
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I have one question for everyone who is fretting about whether LHO was acting on behalf of the Cubans, Soviets, CIA, Mafia, etc. How did any of these entities know in advance that Oswald would end up working in a building overlooking a motorcade route that had not even been planned when he was hired. If you can't answer that simple question, I have no idea why any of you would want to go down any of those rabbit holes.
I agree that the timing of events makes it almost impossible to envision Dealey Plaza as a conspiracy. It’s also near-impossible for me to envision any plausible conspiracy that has Oswald and his rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD as the lone gunman or even one of the participants. It just makes no sense. Oswald as a patsy “works” only if his Russian background, Marxist sympathies and open support for Castro would have pointed away from the conspirators. This works nicely for the Mafia, which had the motive and means in spades – but here, as you say, we bump up against the timing problem for starters. And why would any conspiracy that had Oswald as either a participant or patsy run all the risks associated with him catching a ride to Irving with Frazier the evening before and sneaking his rifle into the TSBD? It just makes no sense. With Oswald, the Soviets or Cubans would have been choosing a participant or patsy who would have pretty much pointed the finger of suspicion directly at them – and what sense would that have made? The Mafia, Soviets and Cubans would all surely have been capable of pulling off the assassination of JFKA in circumstances less preposterously risky than Dealey Plaza and with no need for a cluck like Oswald in any capacity. I’ve voiced mild support for LN+, by which I mean possible “What if?”-type conversations between Oswald and anti-Castro types (as their patsy) or pro-Castro types (as their tool if he was dumb enough to try it) that might technically have qualified as a conspiracy, but it’s hard to picture these as official conversations of any sort or as involving planning of the actual events in Dealey Plaza (due to the timing problem).
The problem for CTers - always always always - is that they are stuck with Oswald and Dealey Plaza. Those are two HUGE hurdles to overcome when trying to formulate a plausible conspiracy theory.
Try as I might, I can never envision any conspiracy that takes us plausibly from A to Z. I can envision lots of them that sound superficially plausible until you try to puzzle out how they actually would have worked. I can envision ones that work at steps A-D and U-Z, but not at E-T. I'm reminded of the old "And then a miracle occurs" cartoon, which is how conspiracy theorizing often seems to work.
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52ed61c3e4b037027633944c/1426001009344-LG2A2RX3WE4PCWJQFQNP/image-asset.jpeg)
Keep in mind, at anytime in the 1960s, the KGB and G2 had hundreds of assets, plants, double-agents, agents, and informants in the US. It is legend how thoroughly Castro had infiltrated the Cuban exile community.
So why would they need Oswald, who would point the finger of suspicion right at them?
LHO appears to have been one of those G2-KGB assets, and he had a job in the TSBD. So he was utilized.
Easy to say, but how would this have worked? How would they have "utilized" Oswald in the tight window between the announcement of the motorcade route and the JFKA? What evidence is there that anything unusual happened in Oswald's life during this window? If this were true, why would they have accepted all the risks that Oswald's trip to Irving and return trip to the TSBD would have entailed? Why would they have trusted to the sixth floor being empty and Oswald being able to accomplish his mission, and why would they have not provided a foolproof means of escape? When we start trying to fill in the blanks, it seems to me that it falls apart very quickly. Woolsey notwithstanding, what evidence is there in Oswald's pathetic, poverty-stricken life after his return to the U.S. that he was anyone's asset?
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I have one question for everyone who is fretting about whether LHO was acting on behalf of the Cubans, Soviets, CIA, Mafia, etc. How did any of these entities know in advance that Oswald would end up working in a building overlooking a motorcade route that had not even been planned when he was hired. If you can't answer that simple question, I have no idea why any of you would want to go down any of those rabbit holes.
Before applying for the TSBD job, Oswald applied and was rejected for several jobs which were nowhere near the motorcade. In fact the only reason Oswald ended up applying for the TSBD job was because Buell Wesley Frazier worked there and during a meeting of local ladies including Linnie Mae, Frazier's sister, the topic of Oswald's unemployment was mentioned so Ruth Paine rang the TSBD to see if Oswald could get a job. Ruth Paine is often accused by the clueless CT community of being part of the conspiracy but as just seen, the amount of random events that needed to coincide ensures that Ruth was just being helpful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx6rMZjm/padgett-job-application1.jpg)
JohnM
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Before applying for the TSBD job, Oswald applied and was rejected for several jobs which were nowhere near the motorcade. In fact the only reason Oswald ended up applying for the TSBD job was because Buell Wesley Frazier worked there and during a meeting of local ladies including Linnie Mae, Frazier's sister, the topic of Oswald's unemployment was mentioned so Ruth Paine rang the TSBD to see if Oswald could get a job. Ruth Paine is often accused by the clueless CT community of being part of the conspiracy but as just seen, the amount of random events that needed to coincide ensures that Ruth was just being helpful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx6rMZjm/padgett-job-application1.jpg)
JohnM
Dear M-H M,
You should have written ". . . Russophile Ruth Paine rang the TSBD . . .", and you might have included the fact that in the early 1970s, CIA Counterintelligence analyst Clare Edward Petty determined by reading some WW II Venona decrypts that Oswald's Dallas mentor, George DeMohrenchildt, was very probably a long-term KGB "illegal."
-- Tom
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LP--
You make good points.
OTOH, the Kennedy trip to Dallas was known by the public two months in advance. The actual route was published locally on Nov. 19.
How much planning does it take to say, "We will hole up in the TSBD6 and fire on JFK after he passes. The diversion will fire from the GK area about the same time."
Remember, LHO had military background, got through Marine boot camp. This is pretty basic stuff. If G2'ers were his confederates, they likely had military backgrounds too.
It was circumstance, or (foul) luck, that LHO worked in the TSBD. Likely, LHO carried his rifle in on 11.22. The other rifle maybe was carried in the same day, or the night before. Security was lax at the TSBD.
The JFKA was not a sophisticated operation. It largely involved a huge stroke of luck (LHO in the TSBD), and then pointing guns and shooting.
BTW, there is the "Sawyer memo": DPD Inspector Sawyer reported one witness told him that he (the witness) saw a man running from the TSBD carrying a Winchester, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA.
Gus Russo reported LHO was friendly with G2. There's your connection. LHO was seen by some in G2 company in MC and NO.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
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Before applying for the TSBD job, Oswald applied and was rejected for several jobs which were nowhere near the motorcade. In fact the only reason Oswald ended up applying for the TSBD job was because Buell Wesley Frazier worked there and during a meeting of local ladies including Linnie Mae, Frazier's sister, the topic of Oswald's unemployment was mentioned so Ruth Paine rang the TSBD to see if Oswald could get a job. Ruth Paine is often accused by the clueless CT community of being part of the conspiracy but as just seen, the amount of random events that needed to coincide ensures that Ruth was just being helpful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx6rMZjm/padgett-job-application1.jpg)
JohnM
Those who think Ruth Paine was complicit by getting LHO hired at the TSBD need to explain how she knew a motorcade that hadn't even been planned much less made public was going to be routed right past the TSBD.
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LP--
You make good points.
OTOH, the Kennedy trip to Dallas was known by the public two months in advance. The actual route was published locally on Nov. 19.
Almost 6 weeks after LHO was hired by the TSBD.
How much planning does it take to say, "We will hole up in the TSBD6 and fire on JFK after he passes. The diversion will fire from the GK area about the same time."
How much planning does it take to say, "I'll have Frazier take me to Ruth Paine's house on Thursday evening and I'll get my rifle and hide it in a bag I'm going to make. Then I'll bring it to work the next morning and after everybody breaks for lunch I'll find a secluded spot and when JFK comes by, I'll stick my rifle out the window and blow his brains out."
Remember, LHO had military background, got through Marine boot camp. This is pretty basic stuff. If G2'ers were his confederates, they likely had military backgrounds too.
Why did LHO need confederates?
It was circumstance, or (foul) luck, that LHO worked in the TSBD. Likely, LHO carried his rifle in on 11.22. The other rifle maybe was carried in the same day, or the night before. Security was lax at the TSBD.
Why was another rifle needed?
The JFKA was not a sophisticated operation.
That's true. One guy was able to do it all by himself with a cheap war surplus rifle.
It largely involved a huge stroke of luck (LHO in the TSBD), and then pointing guns and shooting.
Oswald only had one gun. That's all he needed.
BTW, there is the "Sawyer memo": DPD Inspector Sawyer reported one witness told him that he (the witness) saw a man running from the TSBD carrying a Winchester, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA.
One nameless witness. That's really compelling. If your imaginary second gunman was on the GK, why was he running from the TSBD?
Gus Russo reported LHO was friendly with G2. There's your connection. LHO was seen by some in G2 company in MC and NO.
There's some hard evidence of a conspiracy. <chuckle>
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
My conclusion is you need a reality check.
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LP--
You make good points.
OTOH, the Kennedy trip to Dallas was known by the public two months in advance. The actual route was published locally on Nov. 19.
How much planning does it take to say, "We will hole up in the TSBD6 and fire on JFK after he passes. The diversion will fire from the GK area about the same time."
Why would we hole up in the TSBD6? That is a fantastically risky location from every angle, before and after the actual shooting. Even if Oswald was one of our gunman, why was he not on the roof of the Dal-Tex or County Records building? It was the lunch hour - he could have gone anywhere. A high-caliber rifle not traceable to him could have been waiting. As is so often the case, this seems to me like ad hoc reasoning because we are stuck with the inconvenient fact that Oswald did his shooting from TSBD6.
If I can see the screaming flaws in this scenario, how is it possible the KGB and/or G2 couldn't see them?
I haven't followed the "diversion" argument, but what does that add? With or without a diversion, it was a certainty lots of people were going to realize the shots had come from TSBD6 and, moreover, Oswald chances of simply walking out of the building had to be miniscule at best.
It largely involved a huge stroke of luck (LHO in the TSBD), and then pointing guns and shooting.
Even in the LN scenario, I think it involved FANTASTIC strokes of luck, from Oswald managing to get the rifle out of the Paine garage and into the TSDB ... to finding himself alone on the sixth floor ... to actually accomplishing his objective ... to walking out of the building. Without the Tippit encounter, he might still be living in Havana (or maybe Boise) today. This to me cuts against a conspiracy - why would the KGB or G2 trust to all these fantastic strokes of luck, especially with an erratic character like Oswald, when the objective could have been achieved much more easily and cleanly without Oswald at all?
BTW, there is the "Sawyer memo": DPD Inspector Sawyer reported one witness told him that he (the witness) saw a man running from the TSBD carrying a Winchester, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA.
That was Chuck Connors, who was coincidentally filming an episode of "Rifleman." :D Take it from me, a lever-action 30-30 Winchester is not an assassination weapon. I think I described my experience of stupidly sitting on my front porch on my father-in-law's ranch and firing both a 30-06 and a 30-30 Winchester at an old truck frame perhaps 20 yards away. The 30-06 pierced the frame and left a hole as neat as a drill. The 30-30 ricocheted off and thudded against the side of the house about 5 feet to the right of my silly head.
Gus Russo reported LHO was friendly with G2. There's your connection. LHO was seen by some in G2 company in MC and NO.
Much as I'm intrigued by Russo's work, he needs to provide something a lot more evidential than "Take it from me." He seems to have pretty much disappeared from the scene, and I could find no contact information. As stated above, I'm troubled by the fact that G2 would be using someone like Oswald whose background and highly public sympathies would point directly to Castro. Logically, wouldn't they use a gunman who would point away from them if caught, and wouldn't they take a lot more precautions than turning him loose in TSBD6 and leaving him to fend for himself?
I'm really beginning to think I need to come out of retirement and get into planning political assassinations. I seem to be way better at it than all the hypothesized conspirators in the JFKA!
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Not sure I follow your reasoning on several points.
The TSBD was a perfect location, right by the hairpin turn onto Elm.
TSBD6 was not a floor with offices, but only boxes of books. Nobody went there except to place or retrieve books. By luck, the JFK motorcade passed the TSBD during the lunch hour. Again, that was luck, but made for an excellent sniper's secluded nest. The TSBD6 was deserted. Perhaps, if someone had been there, LHO would have gone up to TSBD7.
I don't know every building in Dallas, but the TSBD was about good as one could hope.
LHO was able to secret a rifle into the TSBD without notice. That alone made the TSBD a good choice. LHO, a lithe 24, and who had mustered through Marine boot camp, knew of the back stairs out of the TSBD, that would provide a quick exit. He proved the worth of that exit route.
My suspected second gunsel indeed may have fired from another location behind the limo, such as Dal-Tex building. I don't know.
Of course, the JFKA was risky operation. The use of a diversion on the GK likely increased odds of escape.
Still, again, you are assuming the perps think as you do.
For example, the perps of the 1954 Capitol shooting cared more about the act, than escaping.
The shooting of the U.S. Capitol occurred on March 1, 1954, when four Puerto Rican nationalists—Lolita Lebrón, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa Cordero, and Irvin Flores Rodríguez—fired approximately 30 shots from the House visitors' gallery to protest U.S. rule, wounding five congressmen. All assailants were captured, convicted, and imprisoned, later having their sentences commuted by President Jimmy Carter in 1978 and 1979.
In 1950, two Puerto Rican nationalists, Oscar Collazo and Griselio Torresola, attempted to force their way into the Blair House in Washington, D.C., where Truman was staying during renovations of the White House.
In both above cases, there was a conspiracy of assassins, who wanted to perp the act more than they wanted to escape. There was Latin American leftist politics being played out. There were zealots and extremists all over Cuba and Latin America during the 1950s-60s. Assassinations were common.
(AI: Political assassinations in Latin America during the 1950s and 1960s were frequent, reflecting intense Cold War tensions, the prevalence of military dictatorships, and rising revolutionary movements. These killings often aimed to eliminate political opposition, silence critics of entrenched regimes, or, in the case of CIA-backed initiatives, prevent the spread of communism.)
A couple hot-head G2'ers, seeking revenge for JFK's many assassination attempts on Castro, may have also wanted to perp the act more than they wanted to escape.
The G2'ers may have been surprised they were able to simply drive away from Dallas, and then to read in the papers that LHO was a LN.
You say there were flaws in the JFKA CT. Of course, there were---it was a simple, low-level op. But it worked, so it wasn't that flawed.
---30---
I have not done much plinking, and that long ago. I did fire a 30.06 and I saw why everyone seemed to like them. I don't know why you are so down on Winchesters. Maybe you had a lesser sample.
AI: Model 70 (Bolt-Action): Often called "The Rifleman's Rifle," the Model 70 is praised for its accuracy, classic Mauser-style controlled-feed action, and three-position safety. It is considered a top-tier hunting rifle.Model 94 (Lever-Action): Iconic for deer hunting, the Model 94 is known for being lightweight, compact, and reliable in rugged conditions.
The Winchester is also highly regarded.
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Just quick points:
1. I don't believe Oswald cared about escaping. I think he was completely astounded to find himself on the sidewalk outside the TSBD. I think he viewed this act as the end of his life, the big opportunity Fate had finally handed him. He would either be martyred for the Cuban cause or be taken into custody and have the opportunity to spout his political philosophy at a trial. If this had been a KGB or G2 operation, they darn well would have cared about the participants escaping if they had been so doltish as to use participants whose backgrounds screamed KGB or G2.
2. TSBD6 was a good location to shoot JFK; the roof of the Dal-Tex or County Records building would have been better by all I have read. In comparison to those, the TSBD6 was fantastically risky. Getting the weapon inside and assembling it when an entire floor-laying crew would be working all morning was risky enough. Betting the floor would be empty and no one would choose to watch the motorcade from that vantage point was fantastically risky. Betting Oswald could cleanly exit the floor and building and make his way to Wherever was likewide fantastically risky. Oswald did this for the reasons set forth in #1 above. No KGB or G2 organizer in his right mind would have chosen TSBD6. Oswald could have simply gone to lunch and found a preplanted rifle at a much, much safer location. If Oswald had cared about escapting, even he wouldn't have chosen TSBD6.
3. It's not a matter of thinking the "perps think as I do." It's a matter of thinking the perps at least think rationally. A JFKA by LN Oswald shooting from inside the TSBD makes sense for the reasons set forth in #1 above and because Oswald was Oswald and the JFKA was a last-minute, flying-by-the-seat-of-his-pants decision. Having the principal gunman fire from inside a building, with absolutely no control over what the circumstances would be at the time, just makes no sense unless the conspirators were the Three Stooges. What I think is going on here is pretty much what is always going on: You're stuck with Dealey Plaza and a JFKA in which Oswald was indeed firing from TSBD6 and this all has to be rationalized even though it's irrational in the context of any conspiracy. The conspirators needed a "diversion" from the TSBD6 on the GK when THERE WAS NO REASON TO HAVE A GUNMAN IN TSBD6 IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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Just quick points:
1. I don't believe Oswald cared about escaping. I think he was completely astounded to find himself on the sidewalk outside the TSBD. I think he viewed this act as the end of his life, the big opportunity Fate had finally handed him. He would either be martyred for the Cuban cause or be taken into custody and have the opportunity to spout his political philosophy at a trial. If this had been a KGB or G2 operation, they darn well would have cared about the participants escaping if they had been so doltish as to use participants whose backgrounds screamed KGB or G2.
2. TSBD6 was a good location to shoot JFK; the roof of the Dal-Tex or County Records building would have been better by all I have read. In comparison to those, the TSBD6 was fantastically risky. Getting the weapon inside and assembling it when an entire floor-laying crew would be working all morning was risky enough. Betting the floor would be empty and no one would choose to watch the motorcade from that vantage point was fantastically risky. Betting Oswald could cleanly exit the floor and building and make his way to Wherever was likewide fantastically risky. Oswald did this for the reasons set forth in #1 above. No KGB or G2 organizer in his right mind would have chosen TSBD6. Oswald could have simply gone to lunch and found a preplanted rifle at a much, much safer location. If Oswald had cared about escapting, even he wouldn't have chosen TSBD6.
3. It's not a matter of thinking the "perps think as I do." It's a matter of thinking the perps at least think rationally. A JFKA by LN Oswald shooting from inside the TSBD makes sense for the reasons set forth in #1 above and because Oswald was Oswald and the JFKA was a last-minute, flying-by-the-seat-of-his-pants decision. Having the principal gunman fire from inside a building, with absolutely no control over what the circumstances would be at the time, just makes no sense unless the conspirators were the Three Stooges. What I think is going on here is pretty much what is always going on: You're stuck with Dealey Plaza and a JFKA in which Oswald was indeed firing from TSBD6 and this all has to be rationalized even though it's irrational in the context of any conspiracy. The conspirators needed a "diversion" from the TSBD6 on the GK when THERE WAS NO REASON TO HAVE A GUNMAN IN TSBD6 IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Why would a gunman need a diversion? Oswald's choice of the TSBD was the only choice available to him and from that standpoint it made sense. Oswald might very well have not known where he would fire from until the last few minutes. Who knows what he would have done had Bonnie Ray Williams decided to remain on the 6th floor. Maybe he takes the shots anyway. Maybe he goes up to the 7th floor to see if he would be alone there. As it turned out, the 6th floor turned out to be a perfect location. He had the floor to himself and a perfect line of fire down Elm St.
I'm not one to second guess Oswald's choices since he succeeded at what he was trying to do. It might have been the only thing he succeeded at in his whole miserable life. If only he could have been hit by a bus on 11/21/1963.
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LP--
THERE WAS NO REASON TO HAVE A GUNMAN IN TSBD6 IN THE FIRST PLACE. (All caps in original). ---LP
Huh?
Of course, there was a reason to have a sniper in TSBD6---by luck, that was where LHO worked and had an excellent view to the motorcade. LHO could secret weapons into the TSBD with little chance of detection. LHO could be in the building with no questions, and on any floor. All that was a relatively low-risk op.
LHO could know when to allow others into the building with little chance of detection, and know how to leave the building quickly. LHO would know which floors were occupied, and which were not. Reducing risk.
By luck, TSBD6 was as good a JFKA set-up as could be found, on relatively short notice.
You are setting up arguments against a straw man CT---that a powerful high-level cabal perped the JFKA, and why would they use LHO?
But how about a JFKA perped by a couple low-level G2'ers, acting without authorization, but in touch with LHO, through LHO's activities in MC and NO? And an LHO had a proclivity for shooting at public figures---see the Walker shooting.
The JFKAC was not sophisticated, and it was risky. So what?
A couple G2'ers did not have a lot of resources at their command, but got lucky with LHO.
For the G2'ers, the mission had to be accomplished, so risks were taken. That happens in the political-nationalist zealotry of the Cold War Latin America.
LHO? I do not pretend to understand LHO, he was likely mentally ill, and possibly thought he would end up in Cuba.
My guess is that LHO was left holding the bag, whether by design or circumstance, I don't know. Perhaps LHO was supposed to be waxed also, but in such a low-budget op as the JFKA, things can go wrong.
The GK diversion was a success.
I am talked out.
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LP--
THERE WAS NO REASON TO HAVE A GUNMAN IN TSBD6 IN THE FIRST PLACE. (All caps in original). ---LP
Huh?
Of course, there was a reason to have a sniper in TSBD6---by luck, that was where LHO worked and had an excellent view to the motorcade. LHO could secret weapons into the TSBD with little chance of detection. LHO could be in the building with no questions, and on any floor. All that was a relatively low-risk op.
LHO could know when to allow others into the building with little chance of detection, and know how to leave the building quickly. LHO would know which floors were occupied, and which were not. Reducing risk.
By luck, TSBD6 was as good a JFKA set-up as could be found, on relatively short notice.
You are setting up arguments against a straw man CT---that a powerful high-level cabal perped the JFKA, and why would they use LHO?
But how about a JFKA perped by a couple low-level G2'ers, acting without authorization, but in touch with LHO, through LHO's activities in MC and NO? And an LHO had a proclivity for shooting at public figures---see the Walker shooting.
The JFKAC was not sophisticated, and it was risky. So what?
A couple G2'ers did not have a lot of resources at their command, but got lucky with LHO.
For the G2'ers, the mission had to be accomplished, so risks were taken. That happens in the political-nationalist zealotry of the Cold War Latin America.
LHO? I do not pretend to understand LHO, he was likely mentally ill, and possibly thought he would end up in Cuba.
My guess is that LHO was left holding the bag, whether by design or circumstance, I don't know. Perhaps LHO was supposed to be waxed also, but in such a low-budget op as the JFKA, things can go wrong.
The GK diversion was a success.
I am talked out.
Your beliefs lack two important elements. Oswald had no need for help from anybody. Killing JFK was a one man job.
The other thing you lack is evidence Oswald had any help. Your suggestion he had accomplices is based entirely on speculation.
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JC-
I conclude LHO has confederates based upon my observation Gov. JBC was shot at ~Z-295.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
That happens ~Z-295.
I have reasonable doubts JBC was shot through the chest ~Z-223, but after that executed a 180-degree turn in his seat to check on JFK.
In addition, I have reasonable doubts JBC was shot through the wrist at Z-223 by a large slug, that "tumbled" (WC version) through his wrist, shattered bone, but that JBC is seen gripping his Stetson at Z-275 without apparent injury. Huh? This does not hold water.
Thereafter, after tumbling through JBC's wrist, then CE-399 untumbled and made a small round hole entering JBC's pant leg, and burrowed into his leg. The WC version. Really?
OK, so the slug was removed from JBC in surgery (says JBC) but then ends up on the floor by elevators away from the surgery room. This despite well-known hospital regulations that all bullet wounds are reported to police and evidence retained. Hospital employee Tomlinson finds the CE-399 slug inexplicably lying on the floor, and gives it to OP Wright, hospital administrator and former police chief.
Wright says the Parkland Hospital slug had a pointy head, like most 30.06 slugs. A former cop said that.
The WC had a mandate: Determine an LN leftie-loser-loner Marxist acted alone. LBJ told Richard Russell, and Earl Warren, he wanted no results that might trigger a nuke war. Reasonable enough concern.
Did LBJ suspect the Mafia, US-based right-wingers or US-intel types? Mossad?
Obviously not. He suspected G2 or KGB. He had good reasons.
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JC-
I conclude LHO has confederates based upon my observation Gov. JBC was shot at ~Z-295.
No wonder you reached a FUBAR conclusion. You started with a FUBAR premise.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
That happens ~Z-295.
WRONG!!! It started over 3 seconds earlier.
I have reasonable doubts JBC was shot through the chest ~Z-223, but after that executed a 180-degree turn in his seat to check on JFK.
Keep the silliness coming. We've had over 62 years of it. We can take a bit more.
In addition, I have reasonable doubts JBC was shot through the wrist at Z-223 by a large slug, that "tumbled" (WC version) through his wrist, shattered bone, but that JBC is seen gripping his Stetson at Z-275 without apparent injury. Huh? This does not hold water.
Why would you expect him to let go of his Stetson?
Thereafter, after tumbling through JBC's wrist, then CE-399 untumbled and made a small round hole entering JBC's pant leg, and burrowed into his leg. The WC version. Really?
OK, so the slug was removed from JBC in surgery (says JBC) but then ends up on the floor by elevators away from the surgery room. This despite well-known hospital regulations that all bullet wounds are reported to police and evidence retained. Hospital employee Tomlinson finds the CE-399 slug inexplicably lying on the floor, and gives it to OP Wright, hospital administrator and former police chief.
The bullet was turned over to the Secret Service.
Wright says the Parkland Hospital slug had a pointy head, like most 30.06 slugs. A former cop said that.
Here we go again. Relying on fallible eyewitness recollections instead of the bullet that was turned over to the Secret Service and positively identified by the FBI to have been fired by Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. CE399 was the only bullet found at Parkland.
The WC had a mandate:
Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it more credible. It just makes you look foolish. But you should be used to that by now.
Determine an LN leftie-loser-loner Marxist acted alone. LBJ told Richard Russell, and Earl Warren, he wanted no results that might trigger a nuke war. Reasonable enough concern.
Either you made that up or you are repeating something somebody else made up.
Did LBJ suspect the Mafia, US-based right-wingers or US-intel types? Mossad?
Obviously not. He suspected G2 or KGB. He had good reasons.
It's amazing the things you have convinced yourself of that aren't supported by a single piece of credible evidence. Only imagination and speculation.
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TC:
AI Overview
President Lyndon B. Johnson persuaded Chief Justice Earl Warren to chair the assassination commission by arguing that a swift, authoritative investigation was necessary to prevent public panic and a potential nuclear war. Johnson claimed that rumors of Soviet or Cuban involvement could provoke a war killing millions of Americans.Key Details of the
Conversation:The War Argument: Warren originally refused to serve, stating it was improper for a Chief Justice to engage in non-judicial work. Johnson argued that a chaotic investigation or multiple Congressional probes could worsen international relations and potentially lead to a nuclear conflict involving 60 million deaths, according to reports from Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara.
"Patriotic Duty": Johnson appealed to Warren's patriotism, insisting he was the only one who could provide credibility and stop "wild conspiracy stories" that could threaten national security.
The Breakdown: Warren recounted that Johnson called him to the White House, described the fears of international fallout (including reports on Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev and Cuban leader Fidel Castro), and that the President cried, asking Warren to serve as a matter of duty.
The Threat Analysis: Johnson wanted to ensure the public believed the assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, acted alone, rather than as an agent of a foreign power, which could trigger a military response.
Following these arguments, which brought up the potential for war and the need to unify the country, Warren reluctantly agreed to lead the commission.
--30---
There are recorded telephone conversations of LBJ to this effect. LBJ had a similar conversation with Sen Richard Russell.
The above marching orders of LBJ are pretty well known, and not controversial.
Here is a recorded conversation between Russell and LBJ:
LBJ: Dick...it has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour.
Russell: I have never...
LBJ: You're my man on that commission. And you're going to do it. And don't tell me what you can do and what you can't, because I can't arrest you and I'm not going to put the FBI on you, but you're goddammed sure going to serve. I'll tell you that.
Russell: Mr. President, you ought to have told me you was gonna name me.
LBJ: I told you. I told you today I was gonna name the chief justice when I called you.
Russell: You did not...
LBJ: I did...
Russell: You didn't tell me you was gonna name him...
LBJ: I told you I was gonna name Warren and you said it would be better to name Harlan.
Russell: Well you ought not to be so persuasive.
LBJ: Well, I think I ought to.
Russell: I think you did wrong getting Warren and I know damned well you did wrong in getting me. But we'll both do the best we can.
LBJ: No. I think that's what you'll do. That's the kind of American both of you are. Good night.
https://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prestapes/b4.html
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Ben, I'm not violently arguing with you. I simply insist on approaching any CT scenario with the threshold question "What sense would that have made, assuming the conspirators were at least minimally rational?"
The overwhelming best evidence is that Oswald did fire from TSBD6. Hence, LNers and CTers alike are stuck with this scenario. Some CTers insist it wasn't Oswald but someone else on TSBD6, which vastly complicates things but is basically the same scenario.
While TSBD6 and Dealey Plaza may seem "ideal" because that's where the JFKA in fact occurred, they were actually far from ideal. I don't think rational conspirators would have chosen Dealey Plaza at all, but I'll let that go. Assuming Dealey Plaza, the minimally risky locations would have been (it seems to me) the roof of the Dal-Tex building and/or the County Records building. Because it was the lunch hour, Oswald could have been in either of those locations, blended into the chaos thereafter, and been back in the TSBD before the lunch hour was over.
We have to ask ourselves whether rational conspirators would have chosen the interior sixth floor of a building with numerous employees and offices, including a floor-laying crew on the sixth floor, and absolutely no ability to predict or control what comings and goings there might be before, during and after the JFKA. It would have been fantastically risky, in the abstract and in comparison to what I suggest in the paragraph above.
You keep saying "because that's where Oswald was located." But he didn't have to be - that's my point. If there had been a conspiracy planned even mere hours before the event, why would rational conspirators have chosen Oswald in the TSBD6 and a diversion on the GK - all fantastically risky - versus Oswald (or a more proficient gunman with a more likely weapon who had less screamingly obvious connections to Russia and Cuba) in a far safer location like the roof of the Dal-Tex building? I happen to think Oswald chose this location because he wasn't thinking in terms of escape at all (and perhaps wouldn't have attempted the assassination if TSBD6 was not empty at the time).
If there were solid evidence of a conspiracy, I would be forced to say "OK, that's the plan they came up with, even though it doesn't seem rational to me." As it is now, however, it seems to me that CTers are stuck with Oswald in the TSBD6 and Dealey Plaza and thus are engaging in ad hoc speculation as to how that unlikely scenario still might have been a conspiracy.
The only one that really "works" for me at all is (1) a Mafia pro on the roof of the Dal-Tax building with a sabot (i.e., an insert so the rifle could fire an M-C sized bullet) and (2) patsy Oswald thinking he's part of a pro-Castro conspiracy and doing everything the LN scenario says he did precisely because the Mafia wants him to be caught and lead to the conclusion that Castro was behind the assassination. As it happens, there is at least minimal "evidence" (such as the statements attributed to Marcello) for this scenario, but I'm damned if I can figure out how it actually would have worked.
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Ben, I'm not violently arguing with you. I simply insist on approaching any CT scenario with the threshold question "What sense would that have made, assuming the conspirators were at least minimally rational?"
Your problem is you assume there were conspirators. Don't you think it would make more sense to establish that first.
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LP--
I guess we are talking past each other.
1. For me, there is a fortuitous circumstance: The JFK motorcade passing right by the TSBD, in fact making a hairpin turn in front of the building. The exact route disclosed in advance by three days (Nov. 19, newspapers). The stockade fence-GK provided the venue for a diversionary smoke-and-bang show. That's a pretty good assassination format to chance upon by luck. In fact, it worked.
2. Upper floors of the TSBD often unoccupied. LHO had legitimate entry, could secret in weapon(s). Even hide the weapons in boxes. Again, a near-perfect set-up.
3. A known Marxist sympathizer, LHO, who had met with KGB and G2 in MC, and made extreme statements regarding JFK. A Marxist seeking passage to Cuba. I suspect LHO was in some ways a mentally ill person---he had taken a potshot at Gen. Walker too. He was prone to suggestion, and shooting at public figures.
4. In the US, any number of Castro sympathizers were embedded into the Cuban exile community. G2'ers who wanted revenge on JFK for multiple assassination attempts on Castro, and also for booting Russians off the island. Zealots. There was an Alpha-66 house on Harlandale in Dallas. LHO got on the G-2 radar down in MC, or even in NO.
5. On three days notice (from Nov. 19), what sort of JFKAC could be plotted out? LHO had military experience, and likely the G-2'ers also, they were good with guns, but they had limited resources. They devised a good plan, under the circumstances. In fact, the plan worked.
6. Sure the plan was risky. In the old days, guys would rob banks; it was risky. The JFKAC planners were zealots, men of action, but with limited resources. In addition, they may have regarded accomplishing the JFKA as primary, and escape as secondary. Like the Puerto Rican nationalists who shot up the Congress and also tried to assassinate Truman.
7. On three days notice, a couple G-2'ers with guns, and LHO and his M-C, no other real resources in Dallas, what better plan could have you come up with?
8. In fact, the JFKAC worked. Even LHO could have escaped, had he only a motorcycle to his name. Boats were leaving from the Mexican coast for Cuba routinely (this is assuming the G-2'ers would not have waxed LHO too). The Mexico-US border was 1,800 miles long and wide open.
I can't prove this scenario of G-2 and LHO. It just strikes me as the most plausible explanation of the JFKA.
I contend there had to be two gunsels due to the timing of JBC's wounds. I work from there.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
I take no umbrage at other viewpoints.
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I can't prove this scenario of G-2 and LHO. It just strikes me as the most plausible explanation of the JFKA.
I contend there had to be two gunsels due to the timing of JBC's wounds. I work from there.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
I take no umbrage at other viewpoints.
All of JFK's wounds and all of JBC's wounds were caused by shots from behind them. A second gunman on the GK can't explain that and shoots down your contention that JBC's wounds happened when you claim they did..
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Your problem is you assume there were conspirators. Don't you think it would make more sense to establish that first.
Yet another kneejerk response that suggests you don't read posts with any care before flooding the forum with your responses. You exemplify in spades what I've characterized as the LNer who feels obligated to defend the LN narrative with such zeal that you seem irritated and offended that anyone would dare to think differently or expose the narrative to closer scrutiny. This is exactly what internet atheists do - they are offended and angry that anyone would believe in a deity. What do they - and you - care?
My "problem" - ??? Do I have a "problem"?
If you read with any care and comprehension, you would know that I do not "assume there were conspirators." Over the years, including my time here, I must have accumulated at least 2000 posts making clear that I believe the LN narrative or something very close to it is the most plausible explanation. But it's not my religion.
Others, including some very smart and thorough researchers, disagree. I'm willing to entertain their views and play around with conspiracy scenarios of my own. It's an entertaining thought experiment: If I were organizing a conspiracy that included Oswald in the TSBD as either a participant or patsy, how would it have worked? Can I articulate one that makes any sense? If so, is there any evidence to support it?
Without a willingness to do this, the JFKA is, it seems to me, rather dull and boring. I have said that those LNers who feel compelled to defend the narrative with almost religious zeal, and who become offended and irritated by anyone who doesn't share their zeal, are a bigger mystery to me than the most fanatical CTer.
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Yet another kneejerk response that suggests you don't read posts with any care before flooding the forum with your responses. You exemplify in spades what I've characterized as the LNer who feels obligated to defend the LN narrative with such zeal that you seem irritated and offended that anyone would dare to think differently or expose the narrative to closer scrutiny. This is exactly what internet atheists do - they are offended and angry that anyone would believe in a deity. What do they - and you - care?
On the contrary, I am amused by those who continue on this never-ending snipe hunt despite 60 years of futility.
As far as the existence of a deity is concerned, I am completely agnostic. I don't pretend to know how the universe came into being so I don't argue with people who pretend they do. Science can take us back to the Big Bang which as I understand it is estimated to have occurred 14.5 billion years ago. People a lot smarter than me have somehow figured that out and I don't dispute that. My question, which seems to be unanswerable it what came before the Big Bang and what triggered it. If science could answer that, I would probably be an atheist.
My "problem" - ??? Do I have a "problem"?
If you read with any care and comprehension, you would know that I do not "assume there were conspirators." Over the years, including my time here, I must have accumulated at least 2000 posts making clear that I believe the LN narrative or something very close to it is the most plausible explanation. But it's not my religion.
I know Oswald killed JFK and I am puzzled as to why CTs keep hunting for the white whale of conspiracy.
Others, including some very smart and thorough researchers, disagree. I'm willing to entertain their views and play around with conspiracy scenarios of my own. It's an entertaining thought experiment: If I were organizing a conspiracy that included Oswald in the TSBD as either a participant or patsy, how would it have worked? Can I articulate one that makes any sense? If so, is there any evidence to support it?
If you could articulate a conspiracy theory that made sense, you would be the first.
Without a willingness to do this, the JFKA is, it seems to me, rather dull and boring. I have said that those LNers who feel compelled to defend the narrative with almost religious zeal, and who become offended and irritated by anyone who doesn't share their zeal, are a bigger mystery to me than the most fanatical CTer.
Again, I say, nothing the CTs do irritates or offends me. I simply point out their fallacies. It's the CTs who seem to be irritated by me and other LNs doing that.
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JC--
I have reasonable doubts that Gov. JGC maintained his grip on his Stetson hat in his right hand, after being shot through the right wrist by a slug that is 1 1/4 inches long and a quarter inch in diameter, and which "tumbled" inside his wrist, according to the WC. The projectile entered the dorsal side of his wrist, fractured bone, and existed through the ventral side.
Yet, we see JBC at Z-275 holding onto the hat, without apparent injury. The WC contends JBC was shot ~Z-223, by the same slug that first passed through JFK's neck.
For me, the WC version does not hold water.
For you, it does.
I take no umbrage at your views, nor do I denigrate your views.
We just have a different take on what happened.
It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. Give it a try.
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JC--
I have reasonable doubts that Gov. JGC maintained his grip on his Stetson hat in his right hand, after being shot through the right wrist by a slug that is 1 1/4 inches long and a quarter inch in diameter, and which "tumbled" inside his wrist, according to the WC. The projectile entered the dorsal side of his wrist, fractured bone, and existed through the ventral side.
Yet, we see JBC at Z-275 holding onto the hat, without apparent injury. The WC contends JBC was shot ~Z-223, by the same slug that first passed through JFK's neck.
He kept holding it after Z295 as well so that blows your theory out of the water.
For me, the WC version does not hold water.
That's hardly a litmus test
For you, it does.
I take no umbrage at your views, nor do I denigrate your views.
We just have a different take on what happened.
Yes we do. I'm right and you're wrong.
It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. Give it a try.
NAH!!!