In general, the HSCA was skeptical and reasonable in their JFKA findings.
While the WC/FBI may have leaned on evidence, I think the HSCA mostly played it down the middle.
I accept the HSCA conclusions regarding the dent.
In general, the HSCA was skeptical and reasonable in their JFKA findings.
While the WC/FBI may have leaned on evidence, I think the HSCA mostly played it down the middle.
I accept the HSCA conclusions regarding the dent.
ME: Were any of the shells that were found in the "Sniper's Nest" on 11/22/63 dented? If so, does it present a problem for the official conclusion of the Warren Commission?
Thought for 23s
GROK: Yes, one of the three spent cartridge cases (shells) found in the "sniper's nest" on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository had a dent. The three cases recovered by Dallas police on November 22, 1963, were designated as Warren Commission Exhibits (CE) 543, 544, and 545. CE 543 had a noticeable inward dent on the mouth (the open lip where the bullet had been seated).
educationforum.ipbhost.com +1
This dent has been documented in photographs taken at the scene (and later in Commission exhibits) and was examined by the FBI and, later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Firearms Panel. The other two cases (CE 544 and CE 545) were undamaged in this way.
aarclibrary.org
No, this does not present a problem for the Warren Commission's official conclusion (that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the sniper's nest, with the three cartridge cases ejected from that rifle). The Warren Commission itself relied on FBI ballistic analysis showing that all three cases had been fired in Oswald's rifle (CE 139), based on matching firing-pin impressions, extractor marks, and bolt-face marks.
archives.gov
The dent on CE 543 prompted criticism from some researchers, who argued it was so severe that the case could not have held a live bullet beforehand (implying it could not have been one of the three shots fired during the assassination, or that the case was planted or previously damaged).
jfk.boards.net +1
However, the HSCA Firearms Panel (a team of independent firearms experts) directly addressed this in 1977–1978.
They concluded:
The dent on the mouth of CE 543 was produced during ejection from the rifle (specifically, from rapid operation of the bolt/ejector mechanism), not before firing or from manufacturing/loading.
They duplicated an identical dent in test firings with Oswald’s rifle (one of four test cases showed a comparable dent when the bolt was worked quickly).
Microscopic comparison confirmed that all three cases (including the dented CE 543) were fired in the CE 139 rifle, with no evidence of multiple chamberings or prior firings.
aarclibrary.org +1
The panel explicitly rejected the idea that the dent would have prevented the case from being fired in the rifle (or any rifle).
ronaldjlilek.medium.com
The Warren Commission (1964) did not dwell on the dent as an issue—the FBI’s initial matching of the cases to the rifle was sufficient for their conclusion of three shots from the sniper’s nest. The later HSCA analysis reinforced this by resolving the dent question through direct experimentation. While some conspiracy-oriented analyses continue to dispute the replication or point to minor chain-of-custody details (e.g., CE 543 was turned over to the FBI a few days later than the others), the official forensic examinations found the dent fully consistent with the three-shot scenario.
documents3.theblackvault.com
In short, the dent is real and well-documented, but it has been explained as post-firing ejection damage and does not contradict (or undermine) the Warren Commission’s ballistics findings or lone-gunman conclusion.
TG-
I could never make heads nor tails out of what any of the audio experts said on the dictabelt, on any side of the issue.
Unlike the Z-film, where a layman can make a reasonable educated guess what happened, I suspect almost no one in the JFKA research community has any idea what the audio experts are talking about.
Who knows?
ME: Were any of the shells that were found in the "Sniper's Nest" on 11/22/63 dented? If so, does it present a problem for the official conclusion of the Warren Commission?
Thought for 23s
GROK: Yes, one of the three spent cartridge cases (shells) found in the "sniper's nest" on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository had a dent. The three cases recovered by Dallas police on November 22, 1963, were designated as Warren Commission Exhibits (CE) 543, 544, and 545. CE 543 had a noticeable inward dent on the mouth (the open lip where the bullet had been seated).
educationforum.ipbhost.com +1
This dent has been documented in photographs taken at the scene (and later in Commission exhibits) and was examined by the FBI and, later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Firearms Panel. The other two cases (CE 544 and CE 545) were undamaged in this way.
aarclibrary.org
No, this does not present a problem for the Warren Commission's official conclusion (that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the sniper's nest, with the three cartridge cases ejected from that rifle). The Warren Commission itself relied on FBI ballistic analysis showing that all three cases had been fired in Oswald's rifle (CE 139), based on matching firing-pin impressions, extractor marks, and bolt-face marks.
archives.gov
The dent on CE 543 prompted criticism from some researchers, who argued it was so severe that the case could not have held a live bullet beforehand (implying it could not have been one of the three shots fired during the assassination, or that the case was planted or previously damaged).
jfk.boards.net +1
However, the HSCA Firearms Panel (a team of independent firearms experts) directly addressed this in 1977–1978.
They concluded:
The dent on the mouth of CE 543 was produced during ejection from the rifle (specifically, from rapid operation of the bolt/ejector mechanism), not before firing or from manufacturing/loading.
They duplicated an identical dent in test firings with Oswald’s rifle (one of four test cases showed a comparable dent when the bolt was worked quickly).
Microscopic comparison confirmed that all three cases (including the dented CE 543) were fired in the CE 139 rifle, with no evidence of multiple chamberings or prior firings.
aarclibrary.org +1
The panel explicitly rejected the idea that the dent would have prevented the case from being fired in the rifle (or any rifle).
ronaldjlilek.medium.com
The Warren Commission (1964) did not dwell on the dent as an issue—the FBI’s initial matching of the cases to the rifle was sufficient for their conclusion of three shots from the sniper’s nest. The later HSCA analysis reinforced this by resolving the dent question through direct experimentation. While some conspiracy-oriented analyses continue to dispute the replication or point to minor chain-of-custody details (e.g., CE 543 was turned over to the FBI a few days later than the others), the official forensic examinations found the dent fully consistent with the three-shot scenario.
documents3.theblackvault.com
In short, the dent is real and well-documented, but it has been explained as post-firing ejection damage and does not contradict (or undermine) the Warren Commission’s ballistics findings or lone-gunman conclusion.
MTG: "Because if that cartridge case could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been more than one gunman."
Dented shell: Dry firing round in the chamber of the disassembled M-C in Ruth Paine's garage. JFKA: Two shots. Case closed. You're welcome.
Helpful freebie advice: I notice MTG's paper says "@ All Rights Reserved." Obviously "@" is incorrect and looks goofy. The copyright symbol may be found on your keyboard by holding the Alt key and typing 0169 on the numeric keyboard, to wit:© 2022 Michael T. Griffith. All rights reserved.
There, now you don't look like a goofball. Actually, none of that is necessary. Copyright protection is automatic. You do need to register the copyright to sue for infringement, but you can do that just before you sue and there is little risk of anyone even wanting to infringe your work anyway. I did some copyright and trademark work when I was an in-house attorney at Xerox. Anyone want to hear about the Berne Convention?
MTG: "Because if that cartridge case could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been more than one gunman."
Dented shell: Dry firing round in the chamber of the disassembled M-C in Ruth Paine's garage. JFKA: Two shots. Case closed. You're welcome.
The scenario of anyone dry-firing a round in a disassembled rifle seems like quite a stretch to begin with.
Anyway, it seems you simply did not grasp the fact that CE 543 could not have been chambered in the alleged murder weapon because it does not have the characteristic chambering impression that we see on CE 141 (and also on CEs 544 and 545). The impression on CE 141 is in the same location as the impression on CEs 544 and 545, but is not as pronounced because it was not fired. If CE 543 had been dry-fired in the alleged murder weapon, or had been fired during the assassination, it would have that same chambering impression on its side, but it does not.
Beyond this fact, if CE 543 was dry-fired in Ruth Paine's garage, how in the world did it end up on the floor of the sixth-floor sniper's nest?
A two-shot lone-gunman scenario is absurd. We have the curb shot that sprayed concrete and cut Tague's face. We have the shot that scraped the curb near the manhole cover on Elm Street and then burrowed in the grass near the manhole cover and was seen and reported by a police officer. We have the pre-Z190 shot that numerous witnesses saw strike the pavement near JFK's limo. We have the pre-Z313 hit on JFK and the pre-Z313 hit on Connally. And we have the Z313 head shot. BTW, the Zapruder film shows reactions to six shots:
Reactions to Six Shots in the Zapruder Film
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnp3Vch_KMOB_qufAhlQOCLTTS9jqNV0/view
See also:
Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view
Tom Graves: As for your repetition of the standard lone-gunman arguments against the HSCA's acoustical evidence, apparently you are unaware that new testing done by BBN scientists in 2019-2020 proves that the acoustical evidence is valid, that the Decker crosstalk is merely an overdub that occurred during the copying process, and that the Fisher "I'll check" transmission is genuine crosstalk, which proves that the gunshot impulses on the tape occurred during the assassination.
Here are the major points of the acoustical evidence:
* At least four sets of gunshot impulse patterns with echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza occur on the dictabelt recording. This was confirmed by two separate groups of acoustical scientists.
* The gunshot impulse patterns occur on the dictabelt recording at the time of the shooting, and nowhere else on the recording.
* The echo patterns indicate that the microphone (i.e., the motorcycle with the stuck mike) was moving at nearly the same average speed at which we know JFK’s limousine was moving on Elm Street. The open-mike motorcycle was moving at an average speed of 11.7 mph during the shooting. The limousine was moving at an average speed of 11.3 mph on Elm Street.
* Remarkable timing-movement correlations were found between the dictabelt gunshots and the test-firing gunshots. The BBN scientists determined that the probability that chance caused these correlations was “less than 1%.” Even the NRC panel admitted that their own calculations showed there was a 93% probability that the correlations were not the result of chance.
* The dictabelt contains N-waves from supersonic rifle fire, and those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns, and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them.
* The dictabelt not only contains N-waves but it also contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-blast echoes, and those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval.
* Windshield distortions occur in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns when they should and do not occur when they should not.
I again suggest you read my article on the acoustical evidence:
The HSCA’s Acoustical Evidence: Proof of a Second Gunman
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvdvH8gTqFgMn-2vTI5ppg_egWxRKg9U/view
A two shot scenario is akin to the likelihood Oswald had accomplices, theoretcially possible but highly unlikely.
Not dry-firing in a disassembled rifle. Leaving it there for convenience because mostly what he did with the rifle was dry-fire it. It was simply there when he repackaged the disassembled rifle and took it into the TSBD.
Just SMH. So now you're changing your story. Just think about this ludicrous scenario, especially in light of the hard ballistics evidence I've presented about CE 543. You have no idea if Oswald "mostly" dry-fired the alleged murder weapon. Even WC staffer Wesley Liebeler doubted that unsubstantiated tale. Here's what Liebeler said on the matter in internal memos (all the memos are reprinted in 11 HSCA):
1. I do not believe there is any real authority for the proposition that Oswald sighted through the telescopic sight on the porch in New Orleans. Marina Oswald first said she did not know what he did with the rifle out on the porch, and then was led into a statement which might be thought to support the instant proposition. It is not very convincing. . . .
I should add that when first questioned, Marina said she'd never seen the rifle with a scope on it. She knew nothing about weapons anyway. If she didn't know what Oswald did with the rifle, this is just further proof that the dry-fire story is pure speculation.
Again:
-- CE 543 has three sets of marks on the base that are not found on the two other shells and that were not made on any of the numerous shells that were ejected from the alleged murder weapon during firing tests.
-- CE 543 does not have the characteristic chambering impression along the side exhibited by the other cartridges we know to have been seated in the chamber of the alleged murder weapon, i.e.,, CE 544 and CE 545, and also CE 141 (the live round found in the chamber of the rifle. The impression on CE 141 is in the same location but is not as pronounced as on CEs 544 and 545, almost certainly due to the fact that it was not fired.
-- CE 543 could not have been marked by the alleged murder weapon’s magazine follower during the assassination because there was a live round left in the rifle’s chamber and only the last shell in the clip is marked by the magazine follower. This fact alone discredits the HSCA firearms experts' claims about the dented shell, as research scientist Dr. Don Thomas has explained:
Furthermore, according to the FBI experts, the casing had been marked by the magazine follower. This fact is especially relevant because only the last cartridge in the clip is marked by the magazine follower, and inasmuch as the Oswald rifle still had one live round in the chamber, CE 543 could not have been marked by the magazine follower as an operation of the rifle during the assassination. The failure of the HSCA Firearms Panel to disclose or discuss the discrepancy between their conclusion and the FBI findings forces the conclusion that the Firearms Panel analysis of this problem was less than forthright and certainly less than thorough. (Hear No Evil: Politics, Science, and the Forensic Evidence in the Kennedy Assassination, New York: Skyhorse Publishing, 2010, p. 141)
I discuss the dented shell at length in my book A Comforting Lie: They Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy. A condensed version of that discussion is available on my website:
The Dented Bullet Shell: Hard Evidence of Conspiracy in the JFK Assassination
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ihue8a0GmN_Ptl38bPjpu1F99nqU0Z6f/view
Any breakthrough on proving your early missed shot fantasy yet? A rifle shot described by the HSCA Sound Analysis as being too loud to miss, is missed by all the eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza and you are totally OK with that belief. Unbelievable.
What fantasy? The first shot was fired around Z-157, the second Z-223
The acoustics is incorrect. IF there were 2 head shots right together his head was pushed forward first then back, not the opposite.
Many witnesses heard 3 shots the first when JFK slumped, and the third at Z-313. No way Oswald could fire 3 shots in 5 seconds.
Do you honestly not understand the evidence you have presented here.
-- CE 543 has three sets of marks on the base that are not found on the two other shells and that were not made on any of the numerous shells that were ejected from the alleged murder weapon during firing tests.
The marks are the result of the shell being pressed against the extractor when the trigger is pulled during the process of dry firing. You know Joseph Nicols' testimony to the WC. He was a real life expert, not this pretend nonsense presented here.
-- CE 543 does not have the characteristic chambering impression along the side exhibited by the other cartridges we know to have been seated in the chamber of the alleged murder weapon, i.e.,, CE 544 and CE 545, and also CE 141 (the live round found in the chamber of the rifle. The impression on CE 141 is in the same location but is not as pronounced as on CEs 544 and 545, almost certainly due to the fact that it was not fired.
That is the point. Josiah Thompson understood the ramifications of it very well. Wrote about it in his book. It seems the importance of it has gone right over your head.
You presented CE 141 as evidence but don’t understand the mechanics of how the chamber mark was impressed into the shell casing? You know heat from the other cartridges having been fired before its introduction. Maybe if you had ever been around a firearm, you would know that.
-- CE 543 could not have been marked by the alleged murder weapon’s magazine follower during the assassination because there was a live round left in the rifle’s chamber and only the last shell in the clip is marked by the magazine follower. This fact alone discredits the HSCA firearms experts' claims about the dented shell, as research scientist Dr. Don Thomas has explained:
Your belief is that rifles cannot be loaded and unloaded. They have to be fired to empty the magazine. Again, maybe if you had ever been around a firearm, you would know that is wrong.
Seriously, you are posting about your supposed military training and you don't understand any of the info you presented here?
Just SMH. So now you're changing your story. Just think about this ludicrous scenario, especially in light of the hard ballistics evidence I've presented about CE 543. You have no idea if Oswald "mostly" dry-fired the alleged murder weapon. Even WC staffer Wesley Liebeler doubted that unsubstantiated tale. Here's what Liebeler said on the matter in internal memos (all the memos are reprinted in 11 HSCA):
1. I do not believe there is any real authority for the proposition that Oswald sighted through the telescopic sight on the porch in New Orleans. Marina Oswald first said she did not know what he did with the rifle out on the porch, and then was led into a statement which might be thought to support the instant proposition. It is not very convincing. . . .
What on earth are you talking about? I didn't "change my story" - I've said the same thing on here 15 times.
You: Dented shell: Dry firing round in the chamber of the disassembled M-C in Ruth Paine's garage. JFKA: Two shots. Case closed. You're welcome.
You: Not dry-firing in a disassembled rifle. Leaving it there for convenience because mostly what he did with the rifle was dry-fire it.
I'm not sure what Liebeler's doubt about sighting through the scope has to do with anything.
Everyone who owns a rifle, including me, does more dry-firing than live firing, and an empty shell in the chamber prevents damage to the firing pin. Live firing with a large-caliber rifle is damn expensive, and Oswald was not only frugal but had limited opportunities for live practice. I simply believe he likely kept a dry-firing shell in the chamber and it was there when he assembled the rifle in the TSBD. A dented shell that cannot be reloaded is typically used for dry-firing - I myself did it.
Oh? Maybe you misspoke:
Do you not see the contradiction?
I do, but you clearly don't. You always pretend to know more than anyone else but then make one blundering statement after another.
LOL! One, CE 543 was supposedly fired during the assassination, but obviously it was not, even according to your amateurish take on Nicols' testimony. Two, this does not explain why there are no chambering impressions on CE 543.
This is just silly, not to mention dishonest. Yes, that is indeed the point, which I made clear. I tend to doubt that you've even read Thompson's analysis of CE 543. If you did, you didn't understand it.
This is another one of your silly and dishonest strawman attacks. Why don't you quote from Thompson's analysis, hey? I wonder if you just don't know that Thompson argues that at least four shots were fired.
LOL! Are you in junior high or something? The level of silliness and dishonesty in your strawman arguments is pitiful. I notice you snipped Dr. Thomas's comments. Gee, I wonder why.
I know far more than you do about firearms. You're a silly troll who pretends to understand issues that you clearly don't understand. Your tactic is to make ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments because you can't deal credibly with the evidence.
Why don't you address the arguments about CE 543 made by recognized firearms experts that I present in my article? I'm guessing you still haven't bothered to read my article on CE 543.
People should know that you're a peddler of the fringe two-shots-only lone-gunman scenario, a theory that even 98% of your fellow lone-gunman theorists reject as ridiculous, including Gerald Posner, Vincent Bugliosi, and Jim Moore.
One might also add - so I will! - that explaining CE 543 as a dry-firing shell is the explanation most in accord with Occam's Razor. MTG consistently violates Occam's Razor to an almost unbelievable degree. Given two possible explanations, MTG always opts for the most complex, conspiratorially-oriented. and frankly least believable one. ALWAYS. This is precisely why I started my thread encouraging CTers to focus on plausibility. CTers like MTG are embarrassments to rational thought and analysis.
Here is the AI response to the dented shell:
How Warren Commission Exhibit CE543 Got Dented
Commission Exhibit 543 (CE 543) was one of three spent 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge cases found in the “sniper’s nest” on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It had a noticeable inward dent on the mouth (the open lip where the bullet had been seated) www.jfkassassinationforum.com.
Official and Expert Explanations
The Warren Commission’s own analysis, supported by FBI ballistic testing, concluded that all three cases (CE 543, 544, and 545) had been fired from the same rifle (CE 139) based on matching firing-pin, extractor, and bolt-face marks www.jfkassassinationforum.com.
The dent on CE 543 was examined by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Firearms Panel in the 1970s–1970s. They found that the dent was produced during ejection from the rifle, specifically from the rapid operation of the bolt/ejector mechanism, not before firing or from manufacturing/loading www.jfkassassinationforum.com.
The panel duplicated the dent in test firings with Oswald’s rifle, showing that one of four test cases produced a similar dent when the bolt was worked quickly. Microscopic comparison confirmed all three cases were fired in the CE 139 rifle, with no evidence of multiple chamberings or prior firings
Well, there is irony for ya: The guy who complains about the use of AI turns around and uses it to bolster his position. When are people going to understand: AI is fine if you want to know some specific fact like the boiling point of water (323° F., my AI tells me) or the date of the JFKA (November 11, 1982). It is not some "separate mind" that analyzes data and reaches a reasoned conclusion. It just scans the internet and regurgitates what seems to be the prevailing opinion. Besides, AI is an alien plot to transform humanity into a non-biological life form, or something like that.
Well, there is irony for ya: The guy who complains about the use of AI turns around and uses it to bolster his position. When are people going to understand: AI is fine if you want to know some specific fact like the boiling point of water (323° F., my AI tells me) or the date of the JFKA (November 11, 1982). It is not some "separate mind" that analyzes data and reaches a reasoned conclusion. It just scans the internet and regurgitates what seems to be the prevailing opinion. Besides, AI is an alien plot to transform humanity into a non-biological life form, or something like that.
I did not endorse or refute the AI answer to this question. I merely put it out there for discussion. The important question here is whether the sources AI turned to correctly documented the findings of the HSCA firearms panel on this subject. The source it used for that answer came from this forum so based on that information, the source might or might not have correctly stated the finding. Now if you want to explore this question further, I could delve deeper and find or more credible source but my belief is if the person who posted that had incorrectly stated the findings of the HSCA firearms panel, somebody would have refuted that and AI would have found the refutation as well and made note of that in its answer.
Dented neck was to hold wadding for a blank round.