JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: John Corbett on May 02, 2026, 04:17:45 PM
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What if Zapruder hadn't filmed the assassination?
How would it have affected our knowledge of the assassination? Would the Single Bullet Theory have ever been developed? I have my doubts although there would be a dilemma for the finding that there were 3 shot and 3 hits, 2 on JFK and 1 on JBC. Why were there only 2 bullets recovered if three had struck the victims. Maybe somebody would have developed the theory but it would be much more difficult to support.
Of course other people were filming but none showed the shooting from start to finish and none had the vantage point Zapruder did.
What other mysteries would we now be facing if not for Zapruder?
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Rosemary Willis would be a lot less famous.
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Other people were filming but none showed the shooting from start to finish and none had the vantage point Zapruder did.
Zapruder didn't film the shooting "from start to finish," because Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
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Zapruder didn't film the shooting "from start to finish," because Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
You're entitled to that opinion but it doesn't make it a fact.
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You're entitled to that opinion but it doesn't make it a fact.
Your saying Zapruder filmed the shooting from start to finish doesn't make it a fact -- even if Zapruder (mistakenly) said that he had.
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What if Zapruder hadn't filmed the assassination?
How would it have affected our knowledge of the assassination? Would the Single Bullet Theory have ever been developed? I have my doubts although there would be a dilemma for the finding that there were 3 shot and 3 hits, 2 on JFK and 1 on JBC. Why were there only 2 bullets recovered if three had struck the victims. Maybe somebody would have developed the theory but it would be much more difficult to support.
Of course other people were filming but none showed the shooting from start to finish and none had the vantage point Zapruder did.
What other mysteries would we now be facing if not for Zapruder?
I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is any other photographic evidence that seems to clearly show a “back and to the left” JFK head movement. So, perhaps we might have avoided that controversy.
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I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is any other photographic evidence that seems to clearly show a “back and to the left” JFK head movement. So, perhaps we might have avoided that controversy.
It is a myth that JFK went back and to the left. He was already leaning to his left, toward Jackie, when the headshot struck. From that left leaning position, he went straight back. When he hit the seatback, he was still on the far right side of the seat. His left lean gave the illusion he went back and to the left.
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What if Zapruder hadn't filmed the assassination?
Oswald comes out guilty without the Zfilm, no question. The SBT would still have been considered because the neck bullet did not stop at JFK and the only thing in front of JFK that was hit were three places on JBC, a couple of points on the windshield and frame and the curb near James Tague.
How would it have affected our knowledge of the assassination? Would the Single Bullet Theory have ever been developed?
According to David Belin as he related in his book Final Disclosure, Specter came up with the SBT after Belin had found an expert witness (whom he does not name but appears to be FBI Robert Frazier) who said that JBC was turned too far to the right after z240 for him to have received his torso wounds. That presented a real problem because that didn’t leave much time for two shots to have been fired if JFK was hit no earlier, than z210. So it does appear that the zfilm was important in creating the SBT.
The original FBI models could have been based on witness evidence as far as the relative spacing is concerned, not necessarily on the Zfilm.
Without the zfilm the placement of JFK at the time of the first shot could be bracketed from witnesses and photos: eg as being between the Croft and Betzner photos and the Phill Willis photo.[Betzner gave a detailed statement on 22Nov63 and turned over his film. Croft turned his film over later and the FBI had it developed, but he never gave a statement. Neither photo was included in the WC exhibits.]
The location of the head shot could be fairly accurately determined from the witness and other photographic evidence (eg Nix film).
The second shot could then have been inferred as being between the first and third based on the shot pattern and without the zfilm the early FBI models would have been hard to refute.
However, there was the Altgens 6 photo that Altgens said was taken after just the first shot. The Belin expert could have used that photo to conclude that JBC must have been hit in the torso before then because of way he was turned. So, that may have led to suggest first shot SBT: that both men were struck on the first shot. But with all the problems that creates it may not have persuaded the WC.
I have my doubts although there would be a dilemma for the finding that there were 3 shot and 3 hits, 2 on JFK and 1 on JBC. Why were there only 2 bullets recovered if three had struck the victims. Maybe somebody would have developed the theory but it would be much more difficult to support.
I don't think the fact that not all the bullets were recovered plays much of a part in the SBT.
Ken Rahn spent a lot of time trying to prove the SBT by showing that the NAA data proved that all fragments came from the same bullet. That was until the Nation Academy of Sciences weighed in. The FBI eventually admitted that using metallurgical science to identify bullets by comparative bullet lead analysis was fundamentally flawed.
But even if were proved that all the fragments came from one bullet, that would not prove the SBT. The fragments add up to less than half a bullet. So we are missing at least large parts of two bullets.
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"Moreover, we don’t need the Zapruder film at all to tell us what happened. Indeed, less than .01 percent of all murders, if that, are captured on film, yet law enforcement has done quite well, thank you, without such films in proving beyond a reasonable doubt exactly what happened. And here, even without the Zapruder film, there were well over a hundred witnesses to the murder in Dealey Plaza—here again, a fact that sets the assassination apart from nearly all other murders. The overwhelming majority of premeditated murders don’t even have one eye or ear witness, yet law enforcement normally is successful in proving the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is because virtually all authors of books on the assassination have had no background in law enforcement that a remark like the following, from anti-conspiracy author Gerald Posner, could be made: “To think that if the Zapruder film did not exist we would never be able to prove with any certainty what happened in Dealey Plaza.”6
So traditionally—and the Kennedy case is no exception—guilt (and the existence or nonexistence of a conspiracy) in a murder case is proved not by a film or eyewitnesses, but rather by other evidence. And in this case, the physical evidence isn’t just persuasive or even overwhelming, it’s absolutely conclusive that only three shots were fired, and that one of the two shots that hit Kennedy also went on to hit Connally. Hence, Connally was not hit by a separate bullet, which would have established a second gunman and a conspiracy.
Yet the Zapruder film remains the focal point for most conspiracy theorists who are drawn to this unique and grisly spectacle. Over the past forty years, the film, for many, has become the Holy Grail of the case for conspiracy. At first, the apparent backward snap of the president’s head at the moment of the head shot, and the alleged delayed reaction between Kennedy and Connally around the time the Warren Commission claimed they were hit by a single bullet, were touted as absolute proof of two assassins. Today, even though the overwhelming majority of evidence has shown that neither allegation is true, most conspiracy theorists, embracing the philosophy of “Don’t confuse me with the facts, I’ve already made up my mind,” still cling tenaciously to these arguments. However, some theorists, knowing that the evidence has obliterated their position, are now actually arguing that the film itself has been altered as part of a massive cover-up to hide the truth about the “conspiracy.” In this chapter, we’ll examine the facts and the myths surrounding the timing and number of shots, the single-bullet theory, the president’s head snap to the rear, the source of the gunfire, and allegations that the most famous home movie of all time has been altered to conceal the truth. We’ll also learn that the “magic” bullet was not magic and the “pristine” bullet (same bullet) was not pristine."
Reclaiming History Vincent Bugliosi
JohnM
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It is a myth that JFK went back and to the left. He was already leaning to his left, toward Jackie, when the headshot struck. From that left leaning position, he went straight back. When he hit the seatback, he was still on the far right side of the seat. His left lean gave the illusion he went back and to the left.
I agree, that’’s why I used the phrase: “seems” to show.
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"Moreover, we don’t need the Zapruder film at all to tell us what happened. Indeed, less than .01 percent of all murders, if that, are captured on film, yet law enforcement has done quite well, thank you, without such films in proving beyond a reasonable doubt exactly what happened. And here, even without the Zapruder film, there were well over a hundred witnesses to the murder in Dealey Plaza—here again, a fact that sets the assassination apart from nearly all other murders. The overwhelming majority of premeditated murders don’t even have one eye or ear witness, yet law enforcement normally is successful in proving the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is because virtually all authors of books on the assassination have had no background in law enforcement that a remark like the following, from anti-conspiracy author Gerald Posner, could be made: “To think that if the Zapruder film did not exist we would never be able to prove with any certainty what happened in Dealey Plaza.”6
So traditionally—and the Kennedy case is no exception—guilt (and the existence or nonexistence of a conspiracy) in a murder case is proved not by a film or eyewitnesses, but rather by other evidence. And in this case, the physical evidence isn’t just persuasive or even overwhelming, it’s absolutely conclusive that only three shots were fired, and that one of the two shots that hit Kennedy also went on to hit Connally. Hence, Connally was not hit by a separate bullet, which would have established a second gunman and a conspiracy.
Yet the Zapruder film remains the focal point for most conspiracy theorists who are drawn to this unique and grisly spectacle. Over the past forty years, the film, for many, has become the Holy Grail of the case for conspiracy. At first, the apparent backward snap of the president’s head at the moment of the head shot, and the alleged delayed reaction between Kennedy and Connally around the time the Warren Commission claimed they were hit by a single bullet, were touted as absolute proof of two assassins. Today, even though the overwhelming majority of evidence has shown that neither allegation is true, most conspiracy theorists, embracing the philosophy of “Don’t confuse me with the facts, I’ve already made up my mind,” still cling tenaciously to these arguments. However, some theorists, knowing that the evidence has obliterated their position, are now actually arguing that the film itself has been altered as part of a massive cover-up to hide the truth about the “conspiracy.” In this chapter, we’ll examine the facts and the myths surrounding the timing and number of shots, the single-bullet theory, the president’s head snap to the rear, the source of the gunfire, and allegations that the most famous home movie of all time has been altered to conceal the truth. We’ll also learn that the “magic” bullet was not magic and the “pristine” bullet (same bullet) was not pristine."
Reclaiming History Vincent Bugliosi
JohnM
I propose that, in this following snip, Vincent Bugliosi has succinctly defined the creed of most CTs:
“… most conspiracy theorists, embracing the philosophy of “Don’t confuse me with the facts, I’ve already made up my mind,”
A creed is a set of fundamental beliefs, principles, or convictions that strongly influence how individuals live, act, or view the world. It functions as a guiding philosophy—whether secular or religious—outlining core tenets that provide purpose, structure to life, and a framework for personal conduct.
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It is a myth that JFK went back and to the left. He was already leaning to his left, toward Jackie, when the headshot struck. From that left leaning position, he went straight back. When he hit the seatback, he was still on the far right side of the seat. His left lean gave the illusion he went back and to the left.
The initial movement of JFK's head, as a result of the headshot, is forward and down (as seen in the slowed-down GIF below). The illusion is that this movement is so quick it can't be detected by the human eye and we are left with the so-called "back and to the left" movement (which is simply JFK's head rebounding off his chest as a result of the explosive force of the headshot):
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJF858sd/Head-Shot-close.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
As for the topic of this thread, I believe interest in this case would have fizzled out in the '70's if it wasn't for the Z-film being shown on Geraldo. The Z-film reignited interest in this case and has been the driving force of this interest for so many decades.
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I believe interest in this case would have fizzled out in the '70's if it wasn't for the Z-film being shown on Geraldo. The Z-film reignited interest in this case and has been the driving force of this interest for so many decades.
Don't forget Comrade Stone's self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") film "JFK," which was based on a book written by an overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful New Orleans DA who, in March 1967, was duped by a KGB article published in a Communist-owned Italian newspaper into changing his theory against Clay Shaw from "He masterminded a homosexual thrill-kill assassination of JFK!" to "He organized it for the evil, evil CIA!!!"
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Oswald comes out guilty without the Zfilm, no question. The SBT would still have been considered because the neck bullet did not stop at JFK and the only thing in front of JFK that was hit were three places on JBC, a couple of points on the windshield and frame and the curb near James Tague.
According to David Belin as he related in his book Final Disclosure, Specter came up with the SBT after Belin had found an expert witness (whom he does not name but appears to be FBI Robert Frazier) who said that JBC was turned too far to the right after z240 for him to have received his torso wounds. That presented a real problem because that didn’t leave much time for two shots to have been fired if JFK was hit no earlier, than z210. So it does appear that the zfilm was important in creating the SBT.
Without the Z-film, how would Frazier know JBC was turned too far to the right. There would have been no Z210 and no Z240.
The Z-film was the timepiece for the JFKA. Without it, the WC would have nothing to base the timing of the assassination on the sequence of the shots. They probably would have figured out the headshot was the final shot but would have nothing but conflicting eyewitness accounts on which to base much else. More unknowns would have given the CTs more opportunities to fill in the blanks.
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The initial movement of JFK's head, as a result of the headshot, is forward and down (as seen in the slowed-down GIF below). The illusion is that this movement is so quick it can't be detected by the human eye and we are left with the so-called "back and to the left" movement (which is simply JFK's head rebounding off his chest as a result of the explosive force of the headshot):
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJF858sd/Head-Shot-close.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
As for the topic of this thread, I believe interest in this case would have fizzled out in the '70's if it wasn't for the Z-film being shown on Geraldo. The Z-film reignited interest in this case and has been the driving force of this interest for so many decades.
I think there would be less interest in the assassination without the Z-film and probably no HSCA. But the WC skeptics were out in force before the Z-film was made public so I'm not sure WC skepticism would have died out completely. CT bibles Six Seconds in Dallas and Rush to Judgement had already been published and Ruby's killing of Oswald fueled much of the early belief in a conspiracy. Would the skepticism have continued into the 1980s and beyond. Probably, but not on the scale it did. I don't think Oliver Stone would have bothered making a movie about the JFKA.
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Without the Z-film, how would Frazier know JBC was turned too far to the right. There would have been no Z210 and no Z240.
The Z-film was the timepiece for the JFKA. Without it, the WC would have nothing to base the timing of the assassination on the sequence of the shots.
That was my point: “So it does appear that the zfilm was important in creating the SBT.”
They probably would have figured out the headshot was the final shot but would have nothing but conflicting eyewitness accounts on which to base much else. More unknowns would have given the CTs more opportunities to fill in the blanks.
They would not have had conflicting witness accounts on the first shot causing JFK to immediately react. That’s why I suggested that if the SBT had been considered (because JFK did not stop the neck bullet) it likely would have been a first shot SBT.
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I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is any other photographic evidence that seems to clearly show a “back and to the left” JFK head movement. So, perhaps we might have avoided that controversy.
The Nix and Muchmore films show back motion from the head shot, so more people may believe in a frontal shot.
I think the SBT survives, but many of the witnesses heard 3 shots with the first being at Z-223 when both men react. Connally heard a rifle shot before they were both hit that many others missed. I suppose without Zapruder's film they would rely on Croft, Willis, and Altgens.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjq9_Ma2Dmq1ZBS1_kndDqYlQozfeM_7hiOkttrT4cXAmn3GyIEikfa3MrFw3-zUbwOt7Cm7kpLO7gIQeVwKcv8ruKTp2re1XpsqVJgFgyAePfJ7Y6tqfmeBsIvh-bw60cdnUIqhZ86PUTvTwBxIcyv9SfckHf4ni7fHvabtMyMCVYcxkSBJrHDI7qFEk8/s1200/robert-croft-jfk-photo.jpg)
(https://res.cloudinary.com/dgpzfuyzy/image/upload/c_limit,h_1800,w_1800/dpr_auto,q_auto/f_auto/v1/5ae0fe3b9c6767a68d8a956d/2002.040.0007_egkyoc)
(https://d1mxaomdth3elf.cloudfront.net/dev/content/131B3B9B-57D7-4C7B-A561-6C2ADCA1DF04/43123507-ec0f-4852-ae13-2d8bd5d697bf.jpg)
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That was my point: “So it does appear that the zfilm was important in creating the SBT.”
They would not have had conflicting witness accounts on the first shot causing JFK to immediately react. That’s why I suggested that if the SBT had been considered (because JFK did not stop the neck bullet) it likely would have been a first shot SBT.
Only because JBC insisted he was hit by the second shot. By process of elimination, they would have concluded JFK was hit by the first and third shots. However, they still would have had to wonder why only two bullets were recovered. They would have had to at least offer possible answers for that. The SS recreations would have revealed that JBC was directly in line with a bullet exiting JBC's throat and that might have been enough for them to develop the SBT which would explain why only two bullets were recovered.
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Only because JBC insisted he was hit by the second shot. By process of elimination, they would have concluded JFK was hit by the first and third shots. However, they still would have had to wonder why only two bullets were recovered. They would have had to at least offer possible answers for that. The SS recreations would have revealed that JBC was directly in line with a bullet exiting JBC's throat and that might have been enough for them to develop the SBT which would explain why only two bullets were recovered.
Less than two bullets, were recovered. There were more than one and a half bullets missing and it was not possible to say whether the pieces recovered were from the same or separate bullets. So parts of two bullets were missing.
There was CE399 which weighed 157.7 grains which is a few grains less than a full bullet. There was CE567, the nose portion of a copper jacket, which weighed 41.5 grains or about 1/4 of a bullet. There was CE569, the base portion of a copper jacket that weighed 20.6 grains, or about 1/8th of a bullet. (6 HSCA 369)
The Firearms Panel of the HSCA tried to see if CE567 and CE569 were from the same bullet but could not find any matching points :
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Qt2S4XZ/IMG-2697.jpg)
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Less than two bullets, were recovered. There were more than one and a half bullets missing and it was not possible to say whether the pieces recovered were from the same or separate bullets. So parts of two bullets were missing.
There was CE399 which weighed 157.7 grains which is a few grains less than a full bullet. There was CE567, the nose portion of a copper jacket, which weighed 41.5 grains or about 1/4 of a bullet. There was CE569, the base portion of a copper jacket that weighed 20.6 grains, or about 1/8th of a bullet. (6 HSCA 369)
The Firearms Panel of the HSCA tried to see if CE567 and CE569 were from the same bullet but could not find any matching points :
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Qt2S4XZ/IMG-2697.jpg)
Here is where common sense has to enter the picture. The FBI doesn't speculate on probabilities when forensic evidence is not 100% conclusive. That doesn't stop reasonable people from making such judgements. Do you really think the two large pieces found by the SS in the limo came from anything except the headshot. What else could have caused a full metal jacket bullet to break apart like that?
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Zapruder's granddaughter, Alexandra, wrote a terrific book ("Twenty Six Seconds") on the film and her family. She goes over in great detail how the film was developed and what happened to it. The conspiracy crowd who insist it (what it? There were four versions) was altered look quite foolish (admittedly, they are good at that). She points out that the FBI in Washington was *unable* to make copies of the film that weekend. Their own laboratories didn't have the ability and all of the film developers in the area were closed for the weekend. If you think Hoover and the FBI and "the government" controlled all of this, that it was all orchestrated, you are really not thinking straight.
She made this point:
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID13455026932/Key4ivj3fh6weq3/film.jpg)
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Deleted: Another duplicate.
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Here is where common sense has to enter the picture. The FBI doesn't speculate on probabilities when forensic evidence is not 100% conclusive. That doesn't stop reasonable people from making such judgements. Do you really think the two large pieces found by the SS in the limo came from anything except the headshot. What else could have caused a full metal jacket bullet to break apart like that?
Maybe the shot that hit JBC in the back and wrist, which was the second shot. According to the evidence, Tague was struck by a fragment on the second shot and Greer sensed an impact in the car on the second shot. So, according to that evidence, the second shot fragmented. How a bullet that impacted forcefully as JBC described, impacted butt-first and destroyed 10 cm of rib and caused a comminuted fracture of the radius 2 inches above the wrist joint and came out looking like CE399 is not easy to understand. It is especially difficult to understand not only how it could do that damage but how it could:
1. fool Agent Hickey into thinking that the second shot occurred at the same time that he was turned forward watching JFK, which we know must have been some time after we see him facing rearward in Altgens 6;
2. fool 75% of the witnesses who recalled a shot pattern into recalling that the last two shots were closer together (which would support the second shot after z255 (Altgens 6))
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Maybe the shot that hit JBC in the back and wrist, which was the second shot. According to the evidence, Tague was struck by a fragment on the second shot and Greer sensed an impact in the car on the second shot.
It has never been established which shot caused the injury to Tague.
So, according to that evidence,
What you really mean is your interpretation of that evidence.
the second shot fragmented.
CE399 did not fragment
How a bullet that impacted forcefully as JBC described, impacted butt-first and destroyed 10 cm of rib and caused a comminuted fracture of the radius 2 inches above the wrist joint and came out looking like CE399 is not easy to understand.
It is very easy to understand if you are willing to listen to people who know what they are talking about. The recently post Nova program covered every one of these points as presented by Luke and Michael Haag.
It is especially difficult to understand not only how it could do that damage but how it could:
1. fool Agent Hickey into thinking that the second shot occurred at the same time that he was turned forward watching JFK, which we know must have been some time after we see him facing rearward in Altgens 6;
Hickey was out of the frame when the second shot struck about Z222 so we don't know for sure which way he was facing. The last time we can see him prior to that shot was Z207 and he is clearly facing forward.
2. fool 75% of the witnesses who recalled a shot pattern into recalling that the last two shots were closer together (which would support the second shot after z255 (Altgens 6))
Oh, goody. Here we go with your infatuation with witnesses again. No wonder you can't figure this thing out.
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From the Shenon book "A Cruel and Shocking Act" and his section on the Zapruder film and the SBT (the frame that Humes saw was CE 398 and ~Z-227 or 228).
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID13462575297/Keyndmbo252kc32/sbt one.jpg)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID13462575288/Keypt9w5wlyhn3p/sbt two.jpg)
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Very interesting revelation about Humes testimony and Specter's reaction to it. Every once in a while I learn something about the assassination that I didn't know before and this is one of those times. There had to be things that the WC and the staff lawyers were struggling with early on and Humes's suggestion would certainly have helped clear up some of those problems. I had always been under the impression the SBT was the brain child of Specter and Ball.
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It has never been established which shot caused the injury to Tague.
The only evidence we have is that he was struck on the second shot. The only evidence we have of an impact occurring in the car is on the second shot. There is no evidence that Tague or anything in the car was struck on the third shot. In fact we have evidence that the third shot was after Tague was struck. I will admit it is not overwhelming evidence but it is all we have.
What you really mean is your interpretation of that evidence.
No. It is simply taking the evidence at face value. No interpretation at all.
Hickey was out of the frame when the second shot struck about Z222 so we don't know for sure which way he was facing. The last time we can see him prior to that shot was Z207 and he is clearly facing forward.Oh, goody. Here we go with your infatuation with witnesses again. No wonder you can't figure this thing out.
You have to read what Hickey wrote in his statement (18 H 762). There was no turn to the rear and then a turn forward between the second and third shots. He observed what happened to JFK while looking at him when the last two rapid shots sounded:
"He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again."
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The only evidence we have is that he was struck on the second shot. The only evidence we have of an impact occurring in the car is on the second shot. There is no evidence that Tague or anything in the car was struck on the third shot. In fact we have evidence that the third shot was after Tague was struck. I will admit it is not overwhelming evidence but it is all we have.
There is no evidence as to any of the 3 shots causing Tague's injury, only speculation. The only one I would rule out would be the second one because that was CE399 was recovered intact except for small fragments of lead from the base.No. It is simply taking the evidence at face value. No interpretation at all.
What you mean is taking selected witnesses' statements at face value which is a silly thing to do given how often witnesses are wrong about important details. If we take witness statements at face value, we would have to conclude the shooting happened a dozen or more ways.
You have to read what Hickey wrote in his statement (18 H 762). There was no turn to the rear and then a turn forward between the second and third shots. He observed what happened to JFK while looking at him when the last two rapid shots sounded:
"He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again."
I can read what Hickey said but that doesn't mean I'm going to assume he got everything right. That's your game.
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There is no evidence as to any of the 3 shots causing Tague's injury, only speculation. The only one I would rule out would be the second one because that was CE399 was recovered intact except for small fragments of lead from the base. What you mean is taking selected witnesses' statements at face value which is a silly thing to do given how often witnesses are wrong about important details. If we take witness statements at face value, we would have to conclude the shooting happened a dozen or more ways. I can read what Hickey said but that doesn't mean I'm going to assume he got everything right. That's your game.
You obviously haven't read Tague's testimony (7 H 555):
Mr. LIEBELER Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn’t say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER . Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in
the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.
The WC even remarked "In Tague's opinion, it was the second shot which caused the mark, since he thinks he heard the third shot after he was hit in the face." (WR 116).
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You obviously haven't read Tague's testimony (7 H 555):
Mr. LIEBELER Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn’t say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER . Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in
the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.
The WC even remarked "In Tague's opinion, it was the second shot which caused the mark, since he thinks he heard the third shot after he was hit in the face." (WR 116).
So you think a witness who said "I guess" and then wasn't sure if it was the second or third shot is compelling? Why am I not surprised.
He even disagrees with the consensus of opinion that the Hertz clock as 12:30. Nothing he said establishes anything as a fact. He's guessing about everything.
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So you think a witness who said "I guess" and then wasn't sure if it was the second or third shot is compelling? Why am I not surprised.
He initially said he "would guess it was either the second or third". But when asked whether he heard any more shots after he felt the hit in the face he thought about it and said "I believe I did". When asked "You think you did?" he replied "I believe I did" "I believe that it was the second shot. So I heard the third shot afterwards". He has never deviated from that since. As I say, it is not the greatest evidence but it is evidence. So it is factually incorrect to say that there is no evidence as to which shot struck Tague. And, for what it is worth, it fits with what Greer said about sensing an impact in the car on the second shot. (The dent in the windshield frame was within a foot of his right ear).
He even disagrees with the consensus of opinion that the Hertz clock as 12:30. Nothing he said establishes anything as a fact. He's guessing about everything.
If I had known you were going to question that I would have added the next question and answer (7 H 555):
"Mr. LIEBELER. That was about the time that you felt yourself struck?
Mr. TAGUE. I just glanced. I mean I just stopped, got out of my car, and here came the motorcade. I just happened upon the scene."
So it appears that the time 12:29 may have been when he glanced at the clock as he was getting out of the car which was just before the shots. Others looked at the clock after the shots and said it read 12:30.
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Problem for a shot at Z270 hitting JC is that the bullet is NOT fragmenting into multiple pieces. If the conventional LN theory for a 2nd shot is CE 399 which went thru 2 bodies and a wrist bone and that CE 399 did NOT fragment , then why should we believe a Z270 shot that only passed thru JCs body would fragment?
So unless this Z 270 bullet exiting JCs lower right side chest at 1500 ft/ sec did some amazing deflecting back left and upward to get past the front seat , then over the windshield and then makes a final physics defying parabolic arc downwards again after traveling across the plaza green, there no way it’s hitting the curb near Tague.
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Problem for a shot at Z270 hitting JC is that the bullet is NOT fragmenting into multiple pieces. If the conventional LN theory for a 2nd shot is CE 399 which went thru 2 bodies and a wrist bone and that CE 399 did NOT fragment , then why should we believe a Z270 shot that only passed thru JCs body would fragment?
I say A (CE399 was the first shot and did not cause JBC’s torso wound) is false and B (the second shot struck JBC in the torso and forearm and fragmented with fragments going high on and over the windshield causing the windshield damage and striking Tague) is true, based on the evidence. You argue that B can’t be true because if B was true then A couldn’t be true! That is true of course, but it doesn’t advance an argument.
The whole point is that CE 399 did not pass “thru 2 and a wrist bone”. I am suggesting it passed through JFK ‘s neck and caused JBC’s thigh wound. That is why it was hardly damaged.
If a second shot struck JBC at full speed and struck bone in the torso and smashed the radius it would have experienced forces that exceeded the yield strength of its copper jacket, which means it would have fragmented.
So unless this Z 270 bullet exiting JCs lower right side chest at 1500 ft/ sec did some amazing deflecting back left and upward to get past the front seat , then over the windshield and then makes a final physics defying parabolic arc downwards again after traveling across the plaza green, there no way it’s hitting the curb near Tague.
If it strikes the radius at z271 or so and bullet fragments deflect off the back of the forearm surface which is angled up and to the right, they are going to deflect away from the point of contact, which is up and to the left.
One fragment struck the windshield frame so something deflected it upward. How would a fragment from the head shot have deflected upward? What could fragments have struck to cause such a deflection?
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I say A (CE399 was the first shot and did not cause JBC’s torso wound) is false and B (the second shot struck JBC in the torso and forearm and fragmented with fragments going high on and over the windshield causing the windshield damage and striking Tague) is true, based on the evidence. You argue that B can’t be true because if B was true then A couldn’t be true! That is true of course, but it doesn’t advance an argument.
The whole point is that CE 399 did not pass “thru 2 and a wrist bone”. I am suggesting it passed through JFK ‘s neck and caused JBC’s thigh wound. That is why it was hardly damaged.
If a second shot struck JBC at full speed and struck bone in the torso and smashed the radius it would have experienced forces that exceeded the yield strength of its copper jacket, which means it would have fragmented.
If it strikes the radius at z271 or so and bullet fragments deflect off the back of the forearm surface which is angled up and to the right, they are going to deflect away from the point of contact, which is up and to the left.
One fragment struck the windshield frame so something deflected it upward. How would a fragment from the head shot have deflected upward? What could fragments have struck to cause such a deflection?
A fantasy that exists only in your mind.
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I say A (CE399 was the first shot and did not cause JBC’s torso wound) is false and B (the second shot struck JBC in the torso and forearm and fragmented with fragments going high on and over the windshield causing the windshield damage and striking Tague) is true, based on the evidence. You argue that B can’t be true because if B was true then A couldn’t be true! That is true of course, but it doesn’t advance an argument.
The whole point is that CE 399 did not pass “thru 2 and a wrist bone”. I am suggesting it passed through JFK ‘s neck and caused JBC’s thigh wound. That is why it was hardly damaged.
If a second shot struck JBC at full speed and struck bone in the torso and smashed the radius it would have experienced forces that exceeded the yield strength of its copper jacket, which means it would have fragmented.
If it strikes the radius at z271 or so and bullet fragments deflect off the back of the forearm surface which is angled up and to the right, they are going to deflect away from the point of contact, which is up and to the left.
One fragment struck the windshield frame so something deflected it upward. How would a fragment from the head shot have deflected upward? What could fragments have struck to cause such a deflection?
Did that Z190 bullet (your CE 399) stop in JC’s thigh? Because if it did not then how could CE 399 have been found on the stretcher presumably having fallen out of JCs leg while he was on the stretcher?
If it did stop in the thigh, at 1500 ft/sec it should have been deeply buried in his thigh, which is contrary to the wound being described as a “shallow” wound.
If it kept going after striking the left thigh, it would have gone into the front seat cushion and metal springs. Maybe it could have stopped there and then fallen onto the floor board later to be discovered by an SS agent who placed it on a stretcher without telling anyone about finding it until 60 years later. 🙄
JFKs head was a spherical volume of skull bone and his head was leaning left when he was stuck in the upper right ( occipital parietal) area of the skull. It was nearly a tangential strike. It’s highly probable therefore that the Z313 bullet could fragment into several fragments which deflected upward enough to hit the inside of the windshield , hit the chrome frame of the windshield and fly over the windshield.
An irregular shaped fragment hitting the chrome windshield could bounce back in any number of ways.
The Dale Myers computer model has lined up all wounds of JC and JFK at z224 including JCs right hand wrist bone, and there’s no fragmenting of the CE 399. The bullet was slowed from 2000 ft/ sec to 1500 ft/sec as it exited JFKs body. It was further slowed down to 900 ft/ sec approx as it exited JCs right side chest and it struck JC in his right hand at 900 ft/ sec, went THRU the wrist bone and exited the lower palm of his hand which slowed it down enough that when it hit JVs inner left thigh, it stopped creating only a shallow wound. That’s why the WC story is that CE 399 fell out of JCs thigh and was found on a stretcher or found in the car or fell out and was picked up off the floor of the operating room or something like that (lolz).
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I am skeptical of Agent Landis' claim, 60 years after the fact, that he found the bullet and place it on a gurney. That seems like an odd thing to do. Surely he would have known that was a key piece of evidence and needed to be preserved. I know he probably wasn't an experienced crime scene investigator but even a layman would understand how important that was. Why did he wait 60 years to claim this? I don't think he lied about it. I think he just has a false memory of it.
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I think he was jealous of Clint Hill's fame/notoriety and decided to make his role on that fateful day larger than it really was.
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I think he was jealous of Clint Hill's fame/notoriety and decided to make his role on that fateful day larger than it really was.
Both lied to cover their ass. Hung over from the night before.
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Did that Z190 bullet (your CE 399) stop in JC’s thigh? Because if it did not then how could CE 399 have been found on the stretcher presumably having fallen out of JCs leg while he was on the stretcher?
If it did stop in the thigh, at 1500 ft/sec it should have been deeply buried in his thigh, which is contrary to the wound being described as a “shallow” wound.
Which is what occurred according to Dr. Shires, the surgeon who treated the wound. A fragment of lead was embedded in the femur as seen on both the lateral and frontal xray views. Dr, Shires removed damaged tissue down to the region of the femur bone. He thought it could have been a tangential strike by a large bullet moving at a fast velocity (6H106).
JFKs head was a spherical volume of skull bone and his head was leaning left when he was stuck in the upper right ( occipital parietal) area of the skull. It was nearly a tangential strike. It’s highly probable therefore that the Z313 bullet could fragment into several fragments which deflected upward enough to hit the inside of the windshield , hit the chrome frame of the windshield and fly over the windshield.
The bullet was moving on a downward path. What did the fragments strike in the head that would have caused an upward deflection?
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Which is what occurred according to Dr. Shires, the surgeon who treated the wound. A fragment of lead was embedded in the femur as seen on both the lateral and frontal xray views. Dr, Shires removed damaged tissue down to the region of the femur bone. He thought it could have been a tangential strike by a large bullet moving at a fast velocity (6H106).
The bullet was moving on a downward path. What did the fragments strike in the head that would have caused an upward deflection?
The downward angle at Z313 hitting the higher level right back of JFKs round skull is not as downward as the Z 270 shot angle going thru JC back.
Yet you argue at that MORE downward angle at Z270 and the exiting of that bullet at a lower point from JCs right side chest (which was facing towards the right side door of the limo) that it’s more plausible than at Z313 that a Z270 bullet fragmented and one piece was deflected upward and leftward by JC’s forearm???
And yet no wound on JC forearm?
Are you sure you didn’t mean to say a fragment defected off JCs right hand since it looks like in the Z271 frame that JCs right hand has the palm facing away from his chest.
At least we know JC got a wound in the hand unlike your forearm proposal.
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The simple fact is that a bullet fired from the sniper's nest through JFK's upper torso and exiting from his throat could not have missed JBC. He was directly in the line of fire. Had he not been turned slightly to his right when the bullet struck, it's likely he would have been hit more toward the center of his back, probably just right of his spine. The single bullet was inevitable given where the bullet entered and exited from JFK.
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I think he was jealous of Clint Hill's fame/notoriety and decided to make his role on that fateful day larger than it really was.
What is the evidence of that? I don't know whether Landis' is deliberately lying or whether his memory is accurate, but his stated motive sounds plausible: It was bothering his conscience and he was getting to the end of his life and wanted to set matters straight. If that really was his motive, then he would have believed he was telling the truth. But that doesn't mean his memory is accurate.
The evidence against Landis is that in his statement after the events (30Nov63 CE1024 18 H 751): 1. he mentioned only picking up Jackie's purse, hat and a cigarette lighter from the back seat of the car and 2. he never mentioned going into the operating room where he now says he placed the bullet on JFK's stretcher.
However, he would have realized that he should not have done what he did but should have realized that the bullet was important evidence and provided it immediately to the FBI. He should at least have mentioned it to his superior officer in the Secret Service. That may explain why he did not mention it - for fear of being disciplined or fired from his job. Possibly.
Is it possible that Landis correctly remembered placing the bullet on JFK's stretcher but was mistaken as to where that stretcher was when he placed it there. Although Jackie may have been permitted to enter the operating room, it is less likely that Landis would have accompanied her into the room as it was crowded and medical staff did not present a security issue. If Landis had placed it at the foot of JFK's stretcher before it was moved into the operating room then that would avoid the problem: he was simply mistaken in recalling after 60 years where the stretcher was when he placed the bullet on it.
The final problem with Landis' story is that the WC found that the bullet had been on Connally's stretcher. I have always wondered about how they could be so sure when Tomlinson, the hospital engineer who discovered CE399, was pretty sure it was not Connally's stretcher.
Tomlinson related that he was asked to close off the elevator and operate it manually. When he entered the elevator on the second floor there was a stretcher already on it ("Stretcher A" as it is referred to in Tomlinson's testimony). The second floor was the floor where the operating room was, which was where Connally was being operated on. After they moved Connally onto the operating table the stretcher was placed in the elevator expecting other staff to take it down for cleanup. Tomlinson descended to the ground floor, where he removed the stretcher and parked it beside another stretcher (stretcher "B") that was already there. JFK had been in Trauma Room 1 on the ground floor. Tomlinson said that a man moved stretcher B back from the wall so he could access a washroom and when he exited he did not move the stretcher back. So Tomlinson said he moved it back against the wall and when he did it bumped the wall and the bullet fell onto the floor. He was pretty sure it came from stretcher B (6 H 130-131):
"Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was “B”.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was on “B”, if you recall ; if anything?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn’t examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so. "
He noted that the sheets were bloody. Obviously JFK's sheets were bloody. Jackie's dress was bloody. The car seat was bloody. Everything around JFK was bloody. Even the operating room floor. But the same could not be said for JBC. His shirt was not bloody. His cuff was not bloody. His jacket was not bloody. While the medical reports for JFK mention "there was a great flow of blood from the cranial cavity, indicating that there was much vascular damage as well as brain tissue damage" and two lots of blood being obtained from the blood bank, there was no mention of external blood in the reports on Connally. There was evidence that the sheet JBC was lying on did have some blood on it (Wester 6 H 123).
Was stretcher B JFK's? Nurse Henchcliffe said that they gathered up the sheets that had been placed on the floor so that staff would not step in the pools of blood from the floor from JFK's head wound. She said that an orderly placed them in a laundry hamper. She said that there were some items and sheets on the stretcher and the stretcher was moved into Trauma Room 2 (which had been where JBC was examined before being taken to the operating room). She was asked if the sheets on or off the stretcher when was taken out and she said "I believe they were off." (6 H 142).
That is not much to go on but it seems to me that it is possible that stretcher B was the stretcher from which CE399 fell and stretcher B was not JBC's. If JFK's stretcher was taken to Trauma room 2 as Henchcliffe said, it may have been moved from there to the hallway before Tomlinson descended from the second floor and put stretcher A beside it. The fact that Tomlinson said the sheets on it were bloody is worth noting.
In light of Landis' story, one may have to reopen the possibility that the bullet came from JFK's stretcher.
But Landis' story doesn't change the fact that CE399 came from somewhere within the confines of the limo interior. And, in the end, that is all that matters. How it found its way out of JBC's leg will probably have to remain something unknowable. I would rather accept not knowing than having to accept a particular explanation that is a best a guess.
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The simple fact is that a bullet fired from the sniper's nest through JFK's upper torso and exiting from his throat could not have missed JBC. He was directly in the line of fire. Had he not been turned slightly to his right when the bullet struck, it's likely he would have been hit more toward the center of his back, probably just right of his spine. The single bullet was inevitable given where the bullet entered and exited from JFK.
As I understand it , Andrew’s Z190 shot hitting JC in his left thigh without going thru his torso is because the angle of the limo (and hence JFKs back) on the road at Z190 is more to the left of the TSBD shooter than at Z224.
But even with that, JC has to have his left leg turned to his left while he keeps his upper body and shoulders turned at least 45 rightward such that the bullet goes past his left shoulder.
Theoretically , maybe this is possible , however until some serious 3D computer modeling is done like Myers did, it remains doubtful.
My major question about a Z190 shot hitting JC in left inner thigh is if the bullet buried deeply into his thigh or not?
If it did then any flakes of metal removed from JCs thigh must be CE 399 because supposedly that bullet hit JC in the wrist and the metal flakes left in his wrist were from CE 399.
Thus Z190 cannot be CE 399 since Z190 does not hit JCs right hand.
If the Z190 bullet does not remain in JCs thigh, then how much was it slowed down from tangentially grazing it? It’s hitting at 1500 ft/sec after being slowed by JFK, so depending how much thigh muscle slows it down, it’s still probably traveling at least 900 ft/ sec after that.
And that Z190 bullet coming in at that downward angle it’s got no place to go after striking JCs inner thigh except THRU the front seat probably on the middle of the seat. This might be theoretically possible but there does not appear to be (in the limo photos) a hole in the seat.
It’s too bad they did not preserve the limo for future analysis.
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As I understand it , Andrew’s Z190 shot hitting JC in his left thigh without going thru his torso is because the angle of the limo (and hence JFKs back) on the road at Z190 is more to the left of the TSBD shooter than at Z224.
But even with that, JC has to have his left leg turned to his left while he keeps his upper body and shoulders turned at least 45 rightward such that the bullet goes past his left shoulder.
Theoretically , maybe this is possible , however until some serious 3D computer modeling is done like Myers did, it remains doubtful.
My major question about a Z190 shot hitting JC in left inner thigh is if the bullet buried deeply into his thigh or not?
If it did then any flakes of metal removed from JCs thigh must be CE 399 because supposedly that bullet hit JC in the wrist and the metal flakes left in his wrist were from CE 399.
Thus Z190 cannot be CE 399 since Z190 does not hit JCs right hand.
If the Z190 bullet does not remain in JCs thigh, then how much was it slowed down from tangentially grazing it? It’s hitting at 1500 ft/sec after being slowed by JFK, so depending how much thigh muscle slows it down, it’s still probably traveling at least 900 ft/ sec after that.
And that Z190 bullet coming in at that downward angle it’s got no place to go after striking JCs inner thigh except THRU the front seat probably on the middle of the seat. This might be theoretically possible but there does not appear to be (in the limo photos) a hole in the seat.
It’s too bad they did not preserve the limo for future analysis.
The angle of the limo didn't change that much from Z190 to Z220. That's less than 2 seconds and the car had just come out of a very sharp turn that would have forced it to slow down. While the change in angle would have turned JBC's thigh farther left in relation to JFK, it also would have moved his torso farther left making it even less likely the bullet exiting JFK's throat would have gone to the left of JBC's torso.
Another problem with a Z190 shot is Oswald would have had to fire through the tree. Why would he do that when waiting just over one second would give him a clear shot. Now only would his view of his target have been obscured, firing through the trees raised the possibility of the shot being deflected by a branch. Even a minor deflection could cause a miss.
In short, there isn't much about Andrew's theory that makes much sense to anyone but Andrew.
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The angle of the limo didn't change that much from Z190 to Z220. That's less than 2 seconds and the car had just come out of a very sharp turn that would have forced it to slow down. While the change in angle would have turned JBC's thigh farther left in relation to JFK, it also would have moved his torso farther left making it even less likely the bullet exiting JFK's throat would have gone to the left of JBC's torso.
I am having difficulty understanding how the position of the car along Elm St. changes the relative positions of the two men. The horizontal angle of the bullet trajectory to the car direction is greater at z190 than at z220. At z193 it is about 17 degrees:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Pj9cx3t/Angle-car-to-SN-at-z193-Trask-map.jpg)
It is less at z220 because it is farther down the road and the road curves a bit farther left. I put it at about 10 degrees:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9z5dvf3f/JO-trajectory-from-SN.jpg)
So at z193 the bullet moves farther left over the 24” or 2 feet between JFK’s neck exit wound and the back of the jumpseat by 24tan17=7 inches. If JFK was pressed against the side of the car the bullet would have exited about 8 inches left of the inside wall of the car beside JFK. JBC’s back was not pressed against the back of his seat at z193 and he was turned right. If his left shoulder was 6” forward of the seat back the bullet would move an additional 2 inches farther left. The thigh would be another 12” farther forward so a bullet would have moved another 4 inches farther left before reaching the thigh: total 13 inches left of JFK’s exit wound.
Another problem with a Z190 shot is Oswald would have had to fire through the tree. Why would he do that when waiting just over one second would give him a clear shot. Now only would his view of his target have been obscured, firing through the trees raised the possibility of the shot being deflected by a branch. Even a minor deflection could cause a miss.
JFK was clear of the tree when he was just past the lamp post and not yet up to the Thornton sign. He was visible at all times as he passed under the tree. This is evident from the Secret Service film:
(https://i.postimg.cc/289MSfvF/Clear-even-with-lane-line-ends.jpg)
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Give it up, Andrew. It doesn't work. Never did. Never will. 'nuff said.
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Well I looked at Norman’s WC testimony again and I have to say that imo he does NOT support a 2nd shot at Z224 because:
A. He described that at the time he heard the first shot, that he saw JFK with his right hand raised. That’s about at Z190 when JFKs right hand was FULLY raised and JFK is looking right to the max degree. I think his right arm starts to move at about Z175 but is not fully up until Z190.
B. Norman said he then saw JFK slump and only AFTER that slump did Norman hear the next 2 shots which according to an earlier statement he made , were in only approx 2 seconds.
So… there are only two 3 shot sequence proposals that Norman supports. One is Andrew’s Z190/270/313 and the other one is Dans 1st shot at Z224 theory , 2nd shot Z313 and a 3rd shot fired After Z313 in only 2 seconds which was the one which hit the curb near Tague.
Dans Z224 1st shot fits well enough with Norman seeing JFK hand raised at Z190 and hearing a shot as it’s only about 1.5 sec after that at Z224.
The Z224 1st shot is supported by lack of any SS agents looking back from Z133 to Z207. Hickeys movement at Z 143 looking forward left ( and down) is NOT a response to a gunshot since he said he had looked BACK at TSBD when he heard the first shot.
Andrew’s is the more controversial theory. The bullets have to deflect more and fragment more and the Z190 shot is thru the tree foliage. The movements of JFK and JC from Z224-Z230 must be considered delayed reactions. Z190 however, does fit with the Willis girl reaction and Betzner not hearing a shot until after his Z186 photo taken.
Dans Z224 1st theory makes a lot of sense in explaining lack of reactions of not only the SS agents but people all along the road beside the limo such as Charles Brehm and 2 guys clapping and a woman walking calmly across the plaza green in the background.
The one questionable shot is a 3rd shot fired rapidly in just 2 secs , apparently UNaimed. It’s questionable if it’s a bolt action rifle why the shooter would have lost his target or why he would fire a 3rd shot at all since he must have seen that he scored the hit at Z313.
What makes the least sense is the conventional WC theory that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and that it was fired at Z124, or Z140 deflecting off a light pole, or at Z150.,Z160, or Z170. None of those are in keeping with a 3/4th majority witness hearing 3 shots rapidly fired and the last 2 “back to back”.
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Well I looked at Norman’s WC testimony again and I have to say that imo he does NOT support a 2nd shot at Z224 because:
A. He described that at the time he heard the first shot, that he saw JFK with his right hand raised. That’s about at Z190 when JFKs right hand was FULLY raised and JFK is looking right to the max degree. I think his right arm starts to move at about Z175 but is not fully up until Z190.
B. Norman said he then saw JFK slump and only AFTER that slump did Norman hear the next 2 shots which according to an earlier statement he made , were in only approx 2 seconds.
So… there are only two 3 shot sequence proposals that Norman supports. One is Andrew’s Z190/270/313 and the other one is Dans 1st shot at Z224 theory , 2nd shot Z313 and a 3rd shot fired After Z313 in only 2 seconds which was the one which hit the curb near Tague.
Dans Z224 1st shot fits well enough with Norman seeing JFK hand raised at Z190 and hearing a shot as it’s only about 1.5 sec after that at Z224.
The Z224 1st shot is supported by lack of any SS agents looking back from Z133 to Z207. Hickeys movement at Z 143 looking forward left ( and down) is NOT a response to a gunshot since he said he had looked BACK at TSBD when he heard the first shot.
Andrew’s is the more controversial theory. The bullets have to deflect more and fragment more and the Z190 shot is thru the tree foliage. The movements of JFK and JC from Z224-Z230 must be considered delayed reactions. Z190 however, does fit with the Willis girl reaction and Betzner not hearing a shot until after his Z186 photo taken.
Dans Z224 1st theory makes a lot of sense in explaining lack of reactions of not only the SS agents but people all along the road beside the limo such as Charles Brehm and 2 guys clapping and a woman walking calmly across the plaza green in the background.
The one questionable shot is a 3rd shot fired rapidly in just 2 secs , apparently UNaimed. It’s questionable if it’s a bolt action rifle why the shooter would have lost his target or why he would fire a 3rd shot at all since he must have seen that he scored the hit at Z313.
What makes the least sense is the conventional WC theory that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and that it was fired at Z124, or Z140 deflecting off a light pole, or at Z150.,Z160, or Z170. None of those are in keeping with a 3/4th majority witness hearing 3 shots rapidly fired and the last 2 “back to back”.
Why do people keep relying on witnesses to figure out what happened. We have one reliable witness and that was Zapruder's camera. It trumps all the human witnesses combined. The only human witnesses who we should be relied upon are the ones who can be corroborated by hard evidence.
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What makes the least sense is the conventional WC theory that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and that it was fired at Z124, or Z140 deflecting off a light pole, or at Z150.,Z160, or Z170. None of those are in keeping with a 3/4th majority witness hearing 3 shots rapidly fired and the last 2 “back to back”.
Progress Zeon! All very reasonable points.
You are beginning to realize that there is no way the evidence can fit a first shot miss. However, I would not agree that JFK's reaction is delayed. It is rather difficult to accept that JFK is not reacting between z193 and before z224:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzwmLKGF/JFK-reaction-193-to-224-to-225.gif)
JBC's reaction was not to being hit by it in the back/armpit. So his reaction will be delayed because he has to process the significance of the sound, realize that the President may have been hit by a rifle shot and begin to turn around to catch sight of the President.
Dan's first shot SBT scenario might be more persuasive if there was a reasonable explanation for JBC being absolutely sure that he was not hit in the back/armpit by the first shot - and if there was cogent evidence of a third shot miss. Also, the shot had to be a bit earlier than z224.
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Progress Zeon! All very reasonable points.
You are beginning to realize that there is no way the evidence can fit a first shot miss. However, I would not agree that JFK's reaction is delayed. It is rather difficult to accept that JFK is not reacting between z193 and before z224:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzwmLKGF/JFK-reaction-193-to-224-to-225.gif)
Neither JFK nor JBC had a delayed reaction. They both reacted at the same time to being hit by the same shot.
JBC's reaction was not to being hit by it in the back/armpit. So his reaction will be delayed because he has to process the significance of the sound, realize that the President may have been hit by a rifle shot and begin to turn around to catch sight of the President.
Total BS. It's not even good BS.[uote]
Dan's first shot SBT scenario might be more persuasive if there was a reasonable explanation for JBC being absolutely sure that he was not hit in the back/armpit by the first shot - and if there was cogent evidence of a third shot miss. Also, the shot had to be a bit earlier than z224.
A second shot SBT perfectly fits with the Z-film and the medical evidence. JBC was directly in line with the bullet exiting JFK's throat. It simply could not have missed him. Your goofy drawings do not change that simple fact.