JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on April 25, 2026, 12:15:31 AM
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When one accepts the reality of the Single Bullet Theorem, i.e., that JFK and JBC were struck by CE-399 at approximately Z-222, then one can speculate on whether or not it was Oswald who had fired the earlier, missing-everything, shot, and if so, when he fired it.
Since three spent shells that had been fired from Oswald's Carcano were found in the Sniper's Nest about an hour after the assassination, since the Carcano, with Oswald's prints on it, was found on the sixth floor, and since Oswald was seen on the sixth floor near the Sniper's Nest by Charles Givens at about 12:05 and by Roy Truly and Officer Baker in the second floor lunchroom about 90 seconds after the final shot, we can reasonably assume that that it was Oswald who had fired all three shots.
Now the only remaining question is when he fired the missing-everything shot.
Brian Roselle and Kevin Scearce point out in their 2020 study that an involuntary "startle" reaction to a loud, unexpected sound like a gunshot does not involve a major L-R head rotation, but "flexion" movements (bending the head and neck forward and downward), instead.
They also point out that seven prime witnesses (including five passengers in the limo: JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, and Kellerman) quickly turned their heads within half-a-second of each other between Z-142 and Z-149, indicating that Oswald's missing-everything shot was at hypothetical Z-124, half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 and 2.02 seconds before Croft took his photo at Z-161.
Rhetorical question: Can even three of those passengers be shown to have turned their heads quickly within half-a-second of each other in any other part of the Zapruder film up to Z-222?
I haven't looked yet, but I rather doubt it.
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
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The Tague shot caused some problems for the WC. They seemed to treat the Tague shot as a LHO miss, not a ricochet. I gather the HSCA subscribed to this also.
There are witness accounts of a bullet strike on the asphalt behind the JFK limo, and of one near the Elm Street curb, near a manhole.
Like everyone says, witness accounts.....
The Tague shot seems to hold water, as the FBI tested the apparent bullet strike on the curb, and found lead.
Also Tague reported the strike contemporaneously.
If the Tague shot was a straight shot from LHO, it indicates one shot passed yards and yards over the top on the JFK limo.
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The Tague shot caused some problems for the WC. They seemed to treat the Tague shot as a LHO miss, not a ricochet. I gather the HSCA subscribed to this also.
There are witness accounts of a bullet strike on the asphalt behind the JFK limo, and of one near the Elm Street curb, near a manhole.
Like everyone says, witness accounts.....
The Tague shot seems to hold water, as the FBI tested the apparent bullet strike on the curb, and found lead.
Also Tague reported the strike contemporaneously.
If the Tague shot was a straight shot from LHO, it indicates one shot passed yards and yards over the top on the JFK limo.
Brian Roselle has shown at "JFK Truth Be Told" that Tague could have been struck by a piece of concrete knocked off the curb by a bullet fragment from the fatal headshot.
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The problem is there is simply no definitive proof of when the first shot was fired. For years I have believed that the first shot was fired at or about Z151 because of the badly blurred frame Z158. That was based on the 7 frame lag time between the shot fired at or about Z311 and the blurring at Z318. That also works for the second shot fired at Z220 with a badly blurred Z227. Recently in another thread, another poster showed that there was also blurring and Z155 which shows a camera jump from Z154-155. There was a similar jump from Z226-227 and from Z317-318. This has caused me to reconsider my belief the first shot was fired at Z151. It seems to me now that the jump/blurring at Z154-155 is more indicative of the first shot fired at Z148. I am always willing to reconsider previously held beliefs when confronted by evidence the calls into question those beliefs. Moving the first shot from 151 to 148 is a small but significant adjustment.
If my previous conclusion was wrong, and it seems to me likely it was, I think I know why I erred. Dale Myers believed JBC's head turn at Z164 was an immediate reaction to a shot at Z160. It would have taken about 2 frames for the sound of that shot to reach JBC's ears which leaves only 2 frames, roughly 1/9 of a second for JBC to react. That seems too fast to me. I knew about the blurring that occurs when a cameraman holding a motion picture camera hears a loud gun shot, so I started working backward from Z164 and found a blurred frame at Z158 and that became the basis for my theory of a Z151 shot 7 frames earlier. My mistake was in not working farther backward to see if there was a better match. It now appears to me that Z155 is more likely the instant Zapruder heard the first shot causing the jump/blurring at that frame. That puts the first shot being fired at Z148.
I have always made the disclaimer that blur analysis is not 100% conclusive because other things could cause Zapruder to jiggle his camera but to me, the best evidence is the first shot was fired at Z148. If somebody thinks they have more compelling evidence of that first shot at another time, I am more than willing to consider it.
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TG--
Brian Roselle's positing a bullet fragment splitting off from JFK's skull and then striking the curb near Tague's feet, but with enough force to send concrete upwards across Tague's face and leave a cut...
Then we have the additional problem that the WC and HSCA say the bullet entered the lower portion of JFK's rear skull, and then exited the right upper portion(that's why there are those large missing skull fragment in the JFK skull x-rays).
In fact, the whole "jet effect" argument is that the bullet and matter were violently ejected to JFK's right, propelling his head to hisleft.
But Tague was way to the left of JFK.
Like JBC's wrist wound, the Tague shot seems to defy explanation. I don't have an answer, and I have never read an answer that holds water.
Like the heavy smell of gunsmoke in DP-GK area in the immediate aftermath of the JFK. The odd man flashing Secret Service credentials on the GK area, to DPD Joe Smith and Sheriff Weitzman. The numerous witnesses who report rapid gunshots on 11.22, too rapid to have been issued by a single-shot-per bolt-action rifle.
Well, the curtain is closing on the JFKA, the decades have gone by. The topic is finally fading.
I easily concede that there are crackpot CT's galore, each worse than the next.
But a lone single-shot bolt action rifle on 11.22?
I am skeptical.
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But a lone single-shot bolt action rifle on 11.22?
I am skeptical.
The only two recovered bullets and the three recovered shells were positively matched to Oswald's bolt action rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. No other bullets and no other shells were recovered. All the wounds to JFK and JBC were caused by shots from above and behind them. There were almost 4 seconds between the first and second shots and almost 5 seconds between the second and third shots. That is plenty of time to operate the bolt and fire the rifle twice more after firing the first shot. Oswald's Carcano was the murder weapon and there is no evidence of any other weapon being fired in Dealey Plaza that day. Why would you be skeptical?
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What are you basing, ".....almost 4 seconds between the first and second shots and almost 5 seconds between the second and third shots"? That's "almost" 10 seconds. That's a very long time and should have/would have attracted "eyeballs" from assorted Dealey Plaza positions toward the sniper's nest. According to Amos Euins, this did Not happen. "POW..............POW/POW"!
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What are you basing, ".....almost 4 seconds between the first and second shots and almost 5 seconds between the second and third shots"?
Jiggle analysis shows blurred frames and a camera jump at Z155, Z227, and Z318. That's 72 frames between the first and second shots, and 91 frames between the second and third shots.
72 /18.3 = 3.934426229508197... seconds
91 /18.3 = 4.972677595628415... seconds
That's "almost" 10 seconds.
My calculator says it's almost 9.
That's a very long time and should have/would have attracted "eyeballs" from assorted Dealey Plaza positions toward the sniper's nest. According to Amos Euins, this did Not happen. "POW..............POW/POW"!
It attracted Amos Euins. He saw two shots fired. Howard Brennan saw the last shot.
I really don't think Oswald was two concerned with whether anybody saw him or not. He just wanted to kill JFK. He succeeded. Why would you second guess him.
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When one accepts the reality of the Single Bullet Theorem, i.e., that JFK and JBC were struck by CE-399 at approximately Z-222, then one can speculate on whether or not it was Oswald who had fired the earlier, missing-everything, shot, and if so, when he fired it.
Since three spent shells that had been fired from Oswald's Carcano were found in the Sniper's Nest about an hour after the assassination, since the Carcano, with Oswald's prints on it, was found on the sixth floor, and since Oswald was seen on the sixth floor near the Sniper's Nest by Charles Givens at about 12:05 and by Roy Truly and Officer Baker in the second floor lunchroom about 90 seconds after the final shot, we can reasonably assume that that it was Oswald who had fired all three shots.
Now the only remaining question is when he fired the missing-everything shot.
Brian Roselle and Kevin Scearce point out in their 2020 study that an involuntary "startle" reaction to a loud, unexpected sound like a gunshot does not involve a major L-R head rotation, but "flexion" movements (bending the head and neck forward and downward), instead.
They also point out that seven prime witnesses (including five passengers in the limo: JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, and Kellerman) quickly turned their heads within half-a-second of each other between Z-142 and Z-149, indicating that Oswald's missing-everything shot was at hypothetical Z-124, half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 and 2.02 seconds before Croft took his photo at Z-161.
Rhetorical question: Can even three of those passengers be shown to have turned their heads quickly within half-a-second of each other in any other part of the Zapruder film up to Z-222?
I haven't looked yet, but I rather doubt it.
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
Put rhetorically, at what point other than between frames Z-142 and Z-149 do JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, and Kellerman quickly turn their heads within half-a-second of each other?
Note: The turning of their heads signifies their conscious decisions to do so and therefore are not their "startle reactions."
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TC--
Thanks for your comments--
"There were almost 4 seconds between the first and second shots and almost 5 seconds between the second and third shots." --TC
Given that we have no reliable audio of the JFKA, I suppose there is no way to prove beyond reasonable doubt what exactly was the cadence of shots on 11.22.
I will say we have two witnesses in different locations, Gov. JBC and Amos Euins, who both said they believed shots sounded like they were issued by automatic weapons on 11.22. Then we have Secret Service Kellerman, in the limo, describing the shots as coming in a "flurry."
Sheriff Weitzman reported the second two shots were nearly simultaneous.
Pat Speer did some compilations, and most witnesses reported a "bang....bang-bang" sequence.
I find it hard to reconcile these observations, often from men with experience with firearms, with the five-second gap between the second and third shots, that you posit.
In addition, like JBC's dorsal-side right wrist wound, the James Tague curb-shot seems to defy explanation. I don't have an answer to where that shot came from, and I have never read an answer that holds water.
Like the heavy smell of gunsmoke in DP-GK area in the immediate aftermath of the JFK--when the wind was blowing towards the TSBD from the Third Street Overpass. How?
The odd man flashing Secret Service credentials on the GK area, to DPD Joe Smith and Sheriff Weitzman. Huh?
I won't pretend to know exactly what happened on 11.22, how JBC received his dorsal-side wrist wound, or Tague his face wound. Why so many witnesses reported the second and third shots as "bang-bang."
Why JBC was still holding his hat at Z-272 in his right hand, if he had already been shot through the wrist.
So, I remain skeptical of the LN explanation of the JFKA.
I am equally skeptical of the vast majority of CT explanations, especially those crafted to promote various ideologies and agendas, or that reflect putrid ethnic biases.
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Thanks for your comments.
You're welcome.
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Put rhetorically, at what point other than between frames Z-142 and Z-149 do JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, and Kellerman quickly turn their heads within half-a-second of each other?
Note: The turning of their heads signifies their conscious decisions to do so and therefore are not their "startle reactions."
You are assuming the turning of the heads is a reaction to hearing a gunshot and that they would turn their heads if they heard a gunshot. Jackie only remembered hearing 2 shots so I don't think she even recognized the first gunshot. She wasn't the only one. JFK did not seem to react to it either. Zapruder's camera jiggle at Z55 isn't proof positive of a gun shot 7 frames earlier but since that same pattern was repeated on the subsequent shot, I think it is the best indication we have of when the first shot was fired. If I remember right you are postulating a first shot at virtual frame 124. That would mean the reaction you think you see at Z142 was almost 1 second later. That seems like a very slow startle response to me.
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If I remember right, you are postulating a first shot at virtual frame 124. That would mean the reaction you think you see at Z-142 was almost one second later. That seems like a very slow startle response to me.
If you'll go back and read my earlier posts, you'll see that I'm not talking about their "startle responses."
I'm talking about their intentional head turns about a second after their "startle responses."
Which "startle responses," if the first shot did occur half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (and pretty darn far from his camera), probably wouldn't be discernable by us, anyway.
Regarding said intentional head turns:
1) JFK starts a quick look to the left at Z-142
2) Jackie starts accelerated head turning left at Z-142
3) Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-149, followed by quickly looking back right.
4) Nellie begins a quick sweeping head turn to the right at Z-144
5) Kellerman begins leaning over and looking behind/down to the right at Z-148
ME: What are the typical characteristics of the "startle reaction" / "startle response" of a person who hears a loud noise behind them?
GROK: The typical "startle reaction" to a sudden loud noise from behind is an automatic, involuntary acoustic startle reflex (also called the startle response or startle pattern). This is a rapid defensive reaction mediated by the brainstem that happens in a fraction of a second — often before you’re consciously aware of the sound.
Sequence of the Typical Reaction
Immediate muscle response (within ~30–100 milliseconds):
Eye blink (the fastest and most reliable component).
Neck and shoulder contraction: The head and shoulders jerk downward or forward slightly (a "head dip" or shrug). [Note: Not a turning of the head]
Upper body flexion: Arms bend inward toward the chest, fists may clench, and the torso hunches or crouches protectively.
Leg response: Knees may bend slightly; in stronger reactions, the whole body jumps or flinches upward.
Orienting/turning component (slightly slower, ~200–500 ms):
Because the noise is behind you, you’ll often rapidly turn your head and upper body toward the source to identify the threat. This is part of the "orienting response" that follows the initial startle.
Autonomic (body-wide) effects:
Heart rate spikes.
Adrenaline surge (fight-or-flight activation).
Increased alertness and faster breathing.
Sweating or a brief "cold" feeling.
Why This Pattern?
Evolutionarily, a loud noise from behind signals a potential predator or danger you can’t see. The reflex protects vital areas (neck, spine, eyes) and prepares you to either flee or turn and confront the threat. It’s very consistent across people, though the intensity varies based on:
How unexpected or loud the noise is.
Individual factors (anxiety level, fatigue, caffeine, PTSD, etc. — people with anxiety or trauma often show exaggerated responses).
Context (you’re less startled in a noisy environment you expect).
Everyday ExamplesJumping and whipping your head around when someone drops a tray behind you in a café.
The classic "someone sneaks up and yells 'Boo!'" reaction — shoulders up, arms in, then spin around.
Drivers slamming on the brakes or swerving slightly after a loud horn from behind.
The startle reflex is one of the most reliable and well-studied responses in psychology and neuroscience. It’s used in labs to measure fear, anxiety, and neurological function because it’s so automatic. In most healthy people, it lasts only a second or two before conscious control and appraisal take over ("Oh, it was just a door slamming").
Costella-frame-by-frame:
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
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You are assuming the turning of the heads is a reaction to hearing a gunshot and that they would turn their heads if they heard a gunshot.
If JFK and the others heard a loud firecracker / backfire sound (or, in Connally's case, the sound of a high-powered rifle shot) behind them while travelling down Elm Street in "nut country" Dallas, would you expect them to continue looking in the direction they were looking before the sound and to perhaps start chatting about it, or would you expect them to, after the original shock, quickly turn their heads to try to figure out where the sound had come from and/or to see the reactions their spouses / colleagues?
When five of the six people in the limo do it nearly simultaneously, it's highly unlikely that it's just a coincidence.
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If you'll go back and read my earlier posts, you'll see that I'm not talking about their "startle responses."
I'm talking about their intentional head turns about a second after their "startle responses."
Which "startle responses," if the first shot did occur half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (and pretty darn far from his camera), probably wouldn't be discernable by us, anyway.
Regarding said intentional head turns:
1) JFK starts a quick look to the left at Z-142
2) Jackie starts accelerated head turning left at Z-142
3) Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-149, followed by quickly looking back right.
4) Nellie begins a quick sweeping head turn to the right at Z-144
5) Kellerman begins leaning over and looking behind/down to the right at Z-148
Your whole premise is based on the assumption that these head movements were all cause by the same stimulus and that stimulus was Oswald's first shot. That doesn't seem very compelling proof to me of a shot at virtual Z124. I'd also like to know how you pinpointed it at the instant. I've explained how I have arrived at my conclusion the first shot was fired at Z148. Maybe you have explained it before but I'm not going to search the archives to find it. It would be a needle in the haystack for me to do it. Please give us the Reader's Digest version of how you reached your conclusion as to the specific time of the first shot.
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Your whole premise is based on the assumption that these head movements were all cause by the same stimulus and that stimulus was Oswald's first shot. That doesn't seem very compelling proof to me of a shot at virtual Z124. I'd also like to know how you pinpointed it at the instant. I've explained how I have arrived at my conclusion the first shot was fired at Z148. Maybe you have explained it before but I'm not going to search the archives to find it. It would be a needle in the haystack for me to do it. Please give us the Reader's Digest version of how you reached your conclusion as to the specific time of the first shot.
ME: Explain in 100 words or less how Roselle and Scearce determined that the first, missing everything, shot occurred about half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
Thought for 7s
GROK: Roselle and Scearce (2020) used human reaction-time science on the silent Zapruder film to time the first (missed) shot.
acsr.org
They distinguished fast involuntary startle reflexes (e.g., ~0.06–0.2 sec flinch) from slower voluntary “surprise” reactions (conscious head turns/looks to locate the sound source). Using brake perception-reaction time (PRT) models from traffic studies—adjusted for total surprise—they estimated median perception time to initiate voluntary movement at roughly 0.5–1+ sec (varying with expectancy).
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
In early frames, they identified near-simultaneous voluntary reactions by 7 witnesses (JFK, Jackie, the Connallys, Kellerman, Hickey, Rosemary Willis) starting ~Z140–Z150 (e.g., rapid leftward head turns then right). Subtracting typical surprise PRT placed the gunshot sound ~½ sec earlier—at hypothetical Z-124, just before Zapruder restarted filming at Z-133 after his ~17-sec pause.
jfk-assassination.net
This fits eyewitness timing, earwitness patterns, and a pre-tree miss. (≈85 words)
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I know you love jiggles, John Corbett, so just for giggles I'd like to share with you what someone by the name of Herb Huskr just posted:
Three synchronized film clips:
1) Elsie Dorman
2) Secret Service reenactment
3) Zapruder clip
Shown with three dubbed-in gunshot sounds at the following times in the three different montages:
Montage 1: "Z-107" Z-219 and Z-310
Montage 2: "Z-124" Z-219 and Z-310
Montage 3: Z-160 Z-219 and Z-310
When we watch and listen to montage 2, we see that Dorman, who at a distance of 35 feet was subjected to about 135 dB from the muzzle blast of Oswald's Carcano (whereas Zapruder, at 275 feet, was subjected to only about 119 dB, and Phil Willis at 130 feet was subjected to about 125 dB), was so startled by the sound of the first shot at "Z-124" that she stopped filming altogether (her finger slipped off the button). Then she resumed filming a couple of seconds later and at approximately Z-222 jiggled her camera like all get out and stopped filming again. Interestingly, she doesn't jiggle her camera at right after the Z-313 head shot. Could it be due to her having become habituated to the nearby muzzle blasts? Seems logical to me.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/553546571932211/user/100003268844965
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ME: Explain in 100 words or less how Roselle and Scearce determined that the first, missing everything, shot occurred about half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
Thought for 7s
GROK: Roselle and Scearce (2020) used human reaction-time science on the silent Zapruder film to time the first (missed) shot.
acsr.org
They distinguished fast involuntary startle reflexes (e.g., ~0.06–0.2 sec flinch) from slower voluntary “surprise” reactions (conscious head turns/looks to locate the sound source). Using brake perception-reaction time (PRT) models from traffic studies—adjusted for total surprise—they estimated median perception time to initiate voluntary movement at roughly 0.5–1+ sec (varying with expectancy).
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
In early frames, they identified near-simultaneous voluntary reactions by 7 witnesses (JFK, Jackie, the Connallys, Kellerman, Hickey, Rosemary Willis) starting ~Z140–Z150 (e.g., rapid leftward head turns then right). Subtracting typical surprise PRT placed the gunshot sound ~½ sec earlier—at hypothetical Z-124, just before Zapruder restarted filming at Z-133 after his ~17-sec pause.
jfk-assassination.net
This fits eyewitness timing, earwitness patterns, and a pre-tree miss. (≈85 words)
. . . . . . . .
I know you love jiggles, John Corbett, so just for giggles I'd like to share with you what someone by the name of Herb Huskr just posted:
Three synchronized film clips:
1) Elsie Dorman
2) Secret Service reenactment
3) Zapruder clip
Shown with three dubbed-in gunshot sounds at the following times in the three different montages:
Montage 1: "Z-107" Z-219 and Z-310
Montage 2: "Z-124" Z-219 and Z-310
Montage 3: Z-160 Z-219 and Z-310
When we watch and listen to montage 2, we see that Dorman, who at a distance of 35 feet was subjected to about 135 dB from the muzzle blast of Oswald's Carcano (whereas Zapruder, at 275 feet, was subjected to only about 119 dB, and Phil Willis at 130 feet was subjected to about 125 dB), was so startled by the sound of the first shot at "Z-124" that she stopped filming altogether (her finger slipped off the button). Then she resumed filming a couple of seconds later and at approximately Z-222 jiggled her camera like all get out and stopped filming again. Interestingly, she doesn't jiggle her camera at right after the Z-313 head shot. Could it be due to her having become habituated to the nearby muzzle blasts? Seems logical to me.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/553546571932211/user/100003268844965
This reminds me of the acoustical study that convinced the HSCA that there was a second shooter and a fourth shot. Of course that study was never peer reviewed before the HSCA bought it hook, line, and sinker. Later that study was determined to be junk science. Why should we give Roselle and Scearce any more credibility. What are their credentials? Was their work peer reviewed? If not, it falls into the same junk science category as the Bolt, Beranek and Newman study that was presented to the HSCA.
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This reminds me of the acoustical study that convinced the HSCA that there was a second shooter and a fourth shot. Of course, that study was never peer reviewed before the HSCA bought it hook, line, and sinker. Later that study was determined to be junk science. Why should we give Roselle and Scearce any more credibility? What are their credentials? Was their work peer reviewed? If not, it falls into the same junk science category as the Bolt, Beranek and Newman study that was presented to the HSCA.
Given the fact that you believe, correctly, that Oswald fired all three shots and killed JFK, why do you think Elsie Dorman, standing 35 feet away from Oswald's ear-splitting Carcano, jiggled her camera so violently at "Z-124" that she inadvertently turned it off, and why did you think she did it again at Z-222?
Do you think Roselle and Scearce are mistaken when they say Kellerman began leaning over and looking behind/down to his right at Z-148, Connally began a quick head turn left, followed by quickly looking back right at Z-149, Jackie started an accelerated head turn to her left at Z-142, JFK started taking a quick look to his left at Z-142, and Nellie began a quick, sweeping head turn to her right at Z-144?
Bear in mind these aren't shoulder-hunching "flinches", but head turns, and are, therefore, voluntary responses to the sounds of the gunshot, not "startle reactions" that preceded them by about half-a-second second earlier.
You've said that the Zapruder film, unlike many eyewitnesses, has never "lied" to you.
If you try hard enough, you'll find the above-mentioned all-within-a-half-second-of-each-other movements in your beloved celluloid truth-teller.
Lacking any other documented loud stimuli at the time, how else can these nearly simultaneous head movements of all five limo passengers be explained as anything other than their conscious responses to the sound(s) of Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot?
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Given the fact that you believe, correctly, that Oswald fired all three shots and killed JFK, why do you think Elsie Dorman, standing 35 feet away from Oswald's ear-splitting Carcano, jiggled her camera so violently at "Z-124" that she inadvertently turned it off, and why did you think she did it again at Z-222?
Do you think Roselle and Scearce are mistaken when they say Kellerman began leaning over and looking behind/down to his right at Z-148, Connally began a quick head turn left, followed by quickly looking back right at Z-149, Jackie started an accelerated head turn to her left at Z-142, JFK started taking a quick look to his left at Z-142, and Nellie began a quick, sweeping head turn to her right at Z-144?
Bear in mind these aren't shoulder-hunching "flinches", but head turns, and are, therefore, voluntary responses to the sounds of the gunshot, not "startle reactions" that preceded them by about half-a-second second earlier.
You've said that the Zapruder film, unlike many eyewitnesses, has never "lied" to you.
If you try hard enough, you'll find the above-mentioned all-within-a-half-second-of-each-other movements in your beloved celluloid truth-teller.
Lacking any other documented loud stimuli at the time, how else can these nearly simultaneous head movements of all five limo passengers be explained as anything other than their conscious responses to the sound(s) of Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot?
You have Kellerman reacting at Z148. JBC at Z149. Jack and Jackie at Z142. Within a half second is not what I call simultaneous. Your whole premise is based on these non-simultaneous head movements being a reaction to a gunshot, a shot Jackie doesn't even remember hearing. JFK didn't seem at all phased by it as he continued to calmly wave to the crowd until he was struck at or about Z222. Not exactly a WTF-was-that reaction by JFK. Why would you assume these head movements were triggered by a loud stimulus. Can't you think of any other reason the occupants of the limo would be looking around during a motorcade?
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Where is the car in proximity to the window in the 140s?
How do you know a shot in the 140s isn't a firecracker?
The window is only open about 13in - at only about a foot from the floor and covered in boxes.
Did he point the gun straight down? how could he see? how could that be missed? ...and 120s is just ridiculous
Also, I don't buy a shaky camera at the sound of shots. It may be actual but not exclusive.
If Sitzman was holding on to him, how do you know any of her movements would not effect the camera?
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Where is the car in proximity to the window in the 140s?
How do you know a shot in the 140s isn't a firecracker?
The window is only open about 13in - at only about a foot from the floor and covered in boxes.
Did he point the gun straight down? how could he see? how could that be missed? ...and 120s is just ridiculous
Also, I don't buy a shaky camera at the sound of shots. It may be actual but not exclusive.
If Sitzman was holding on to him, how do you know any of her movements would not effect the camera?
My objection to a virtual Z124 shot or any other time while Zapruder wasn't filming is that JBC is seen reacting at Z164 when he starts to turn to look over his right shoulder. That's over 2 seconds which seems a rather slow response to me. If the shot was fired at Z148 which is my belief, JBC would have heard the shot at Z150 which is about 3/4 of a second. Neither my belief of a shot at Z148 or the Roselle/Scearce theory of a virtual Z124 shot is an established fact but I think the evidence is much stronger for a Z148 shot. We see the same pattern for the two shots we know struck JFK so a shot at Z148 is consistent with the other two shots. With no definitive evidence of when the first shot was fired, it's the best we can do.
You have identified the difficulty of the first shot whether fired at Z124, Z148, or any early frame in the Z-film. It's a very awkward downward shot with the target moving across the line of fire as opposed to down the line of fire as it was for the subsequent shots. Oswald would likely have had to raise up to fire down that steeply and it's easy to understand why he would completely miss with that shot.
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I don’t see Oswald or any other shooter firing a shot that misses the entire limo IF they are in position using the boxes as a rifle rest.
Not Sure if LNs agree with the WC suggested position that the 6th floor shooter was sitting on that one box by the pipes keeping himself hidden from view in the Hughes film, but that seems to be a plausible position as the shooter can just lean over and place the rifle on the stacked box arrangement.
So if there was this prearranged box configuration the it seems contrary that the shooter would have Have stood up to take an unaimed hasty shot at Z124.
So I’m going with that idea the shooter DID lean over and was placing the rifle on the box platform as he had planned but he inadvertently squeezed the trigger as he did so.
The other LN alternative is A.Masons 3 aimed shots and 3 hits theory of which the 1st one is thru tree foliage at Z190.
Since I do not see why more that one shooter is required to do this job, then my only CT alternative that might be plausible is the TSBD shouter used a semi auto rifle and that Norman’s “boom click click” description may be a “ bang, clink clink” where each shell was auto ejected and bounced on the floor 2 times.
It’s the Pre planting of a misaligned scope rifle that has mail order paper trail Oswald that’s the problem however. If the conspirator shooter went to that much trouble to set up Oswald, surely he would make sure the scope was aligned and zeroed would he not?
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I don’t see Oswald or any other shooter firing a shot that misses the entire limo IF they are in position using the boxes as a rifle rest.
I normally don't like to make assumptions but I'm going to make an exception here. I'm pretty sure Oswald wasn't trying to shoot the limo.
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I believe that Oswald fired three shots, at around z-153, z-222 and z-312.
The shot at z-312 is the best well confirmed, of course.
The shot at z-222 has a lot of support. I think one would have to be firmly wedded to some conspiracy theory to not conclude that both JFK and Connally were wounded at about this time.
The shot at z-153 has a good deal less support, compared to the other two shots. But I think it is pretty compelling. Going by memory, the Zapruder camera jiggle, the Governor Connally head turn and Rosemary Willis slowing down after that, coming to a stop and looking back at the TSBD, all make a compelling case. And with the tree looming up, if Oswald wanted to get in a shot before the tree, he needed to fire about then.
And, as I have posted before, the angular speed of the three shots, plus that of the 1908 Olympic Running Deer competition had the following angular speeds in dps (degrees per second).
z-153: 4.8 dps
1908 Running Dear: 3.2 dps
z-222: 1.9 dps
z-312: 0.58 dps
The angular speed being greater for the shot at z-153 then the Olympic competition shooting gives ample reasons why a shot at z-153 could miss wildly.
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The Tague shot caused some problems for the WC. They seemed to treat the Tague shot as a LHO miss, not a ricochet. I gather the HSCA subscribed to this also.
There are witness accounts of a bullet strike on the asphalt behind the JFK limo, and of one near the Elm Street curb, near a manhole.
Like everyone says, witness accounts.....
The Tague shot seems to hold water, as the FBI tested the apparent bullet strike on the curb, and found lead.
Also Tague reported the strike contemporaneously.
If the Tague shot was a straight shot from LHO, it indicates one shot passed yards and yards over the top on the JFK limo.
The WC and HSCA likely were mistaken in think the missed shot caused the Tague wound. It was likely a fragment from the head shot caused that wound. The TSBD sniper's nest, the limousine at z-312 and Mr. Tague all roughly line up. Certainly, lines up better than a shot at z-153 or z-222. Also, only about 40 % of the head shot bullet was recovered. Clearly 60 % flew over the windshield and disappeared in the general direction of Mr. Tague.
While this fragment could have struck the curb and ricochet up to hit Mr. Tague, likely it did not and just hit Mr. Tague directly. When the curb smear had lead in it, a bullet is not the only thing that can leave a lead smear. A car's tire balancing weight is made of lead and the location of the lead smear, right at the top edge of the curb, is precisely where one would expect a tire to leave a mark if some car on that very busy street drifted out if it's lane and the tire scraped along the curb.
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You have Kellerman reacting at Z148. JBC at Z149. Jack and Jackie at Z142. Within a half second is not what I call simultaneous. Your whole premise is based on these non-simultaneous head movements being a reaction to a gunshot, a shot Jackie doesn't even remember hearing. JFK didn't seem at all phased by it as he continued to calmly wave to the crowd until he was struck at or about Z222. Not exactly a WTF-was-that reaction by JFK. Why would you assume these head movements were triggered by a loud stimulus. Can't you think of any other reason the occupants of the limo would be looking around during a motorcade?
Why the hyperbole, Corbett?
I didn't say simultaneous, I said nearly simultaneous.
Regardless:
ME: Please summarize our conversation.
GROK: We began with the observation that JFK, Jackie Kennedy, John and Nellie Connally, and Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman executed quick head turns (spanning roughly half a second, or ~9 frames at Zapruder’s ~18.3 fps) in a tight cluster around frames Z140–150 — about 5 seconds (in real time) before the visible reactions associated with JFK’s back wound. You asked whether these could fairly be described as (1) “nearly simultaneous” and (2) voluntary, non-startle orienting responses to a sensory stimulus. I confirmed both characterizations are reasonable under the premise, noting they align with directed attentional scanning rather than reflexive startle.
We then examined the probability that these movements were responses to a loud, unexpected noise occurring about a second earlier. Initial estimates were modest (15–25%) because of the mixed directions (some leftward for JFK/Jackie/Connally, right/rear for Kellerman and Nellie), the absence of reported friendly crowd shouts (such as “Hi!”, “Hello, Mr. President!”, or similar greetings) at that moment that could plausibly have prompted the passengers to turn their heads, and the general plausibility of routine motorcade scanning/waving.
Elsie Dorman film evidence was introduced as a key corroborator: Elsie Dorman, filming from a fourth-floor TSBD office roughly 35 feet from the sniper’s nest (and thus exposed to ~135 dB from a hypothetical Carcano muzzle blast), showed a violent camera jiggle involving an inadvertent ~3-second filming stop. When her film is synchronized with the Zapruder film and Secret Service reenactment footage — using the motion and location of bystander Rosemary Willis (“running girl”) as the cross-reference anchor — the jiggle/stop aligns with a hypothetical early shot position labeled “Z-124” (a calculated frame, roughly half a second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 after his 17-second pause). Similar jiggle patterns reportedly align with the later dubbed shot at Z-219. This placed the loud sound 0.9–1.4 seconds before the passenger head-turn cluster, a strong match for voluntary orienting response latencies. Additional reactors in the same narrow window (Z139–153) include:
George Hickey (follow-up car): leans forward and downward, looking at the pavement to the left of the limo.
Glen Bennett (follow-up car): leans far right to keep eyes on JFK (consistent with his later “firecracker” testimony).
Rosemary Willis herself, whose early reaction helped anchor the synchronization.
Psychoacoustic context: A sound from behind and above (TSBD sniper’s nest area) is notoriously difficult to localize precisely due to the cone of confusion and reliance on subtle spectral cues. This helps explain the observed directional mix rather than perfect unanimity.
With near-perfect Willis-based synchronization, Dorman’s extreme close-range startle, the expanded cluster (original five + Hickey, Bennett, and Willis), and Kellerman’s testimony, the probability that the quick, nearly simultaneous head turns were voluntary orienting responses to a single loud unexpected noise at ~“Z-124” (a hypothetical early missed shot) rises to 80–92%. This makes the shared auditory stimulus the leading explanation under the described premises, though residual uncertainties remain due to the modest number of clear reactors, enduring mainstream forensic timelines favoring a later first shot, and the lack of definitive physical evidence for an early miss.
ME: If the angular velocity of JFK's moving head from Oswald's perspective was significantly higher at "Z-124" than at, say, Z-148, Z-160, Z-222, and Z-313, would it support the theory that Oswald's first-of-three shots was at "Z-124" and that it missed everything?
GROK: Yes, it would strongly support the theory that Oswald’s first-of-three shots occurred at ~“Z-124” and missed everything (no impact on JFK, Connally, or the limousine).
Why higher angular velocity at “Z-124” favors an early miss
From the sniper’s nest perspective (TSBD 6th-floor southeast window), angular velocity (ω) is the apparent speed at which JFK’s head moves across the shooter’s field of view, measured in degrees per second. It is a key factor in target-tracking difficulty for a moving target:
Higher ω = the target crosses the sights faster → requires quicker rifle panning, more precise lead estimation, and a narrower margin for error (especially with a bolt-action Carcano and iron/telescopic sights).
Lower ω = the target appears more nearly stationary → easier to track and hit.
At ~“Z-124” (very early on Elm Street, just after the Houston-to-Elm turn and before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133), the limousine is farther away, still on a slight curve/incline, and its motion has a larger perpendicular component relative to the line of sight from the sniper’s nest. This produces significantly higher angular velocity of JFK’s head.By comparison:Later frames like Z-148/Z-160 (near the first visible reactions), Z-222 (throat/back wound), and especially Z-313 (fatal head shot) occur as the limousine straightens out and moves more directly away/down Elm Street. The perpendicular component shrinks, distance effects stabilize, and ω drops substantially — often to roughly half or less of the early value.
Peer-reviewed kinematic analyses confirm this pattern quantitatively. For example, one detailed sniper target-tracking study calculated approximate values from the TSBD window:Early miss position (pre-tree/early Elm, analogous to “Z-124”): ~7.6°/s (complete miss).
Subsequent hit positions: ~3.7°/s (upper-torso wound) and ~1.1°/s (head wound).
There is a clear correlation between higher early angular velocity and the documented miss. A significantly higher ω at “Z-124” than at the later hit frames would therefore be kinematically consistent with (and supportive of) the first shot being fired then, when the shot was objectively harder, and missing.Additional reinforcing factors in contextThe ~1-second latency to the passenger/SS/bystander reactions we discussed earlier aligns with voluntary orienting to a loud report at exactly this moment.
The Dorman film jiggle/stop (synced via Rosemary Willis) independently corroborates a loud external event at ~“Z-124”.
Psychoacoustics (rear/above localization difficulty) explain the mixed head-turn directions without contradiction.
In short, the hypothetical elevated angular velocity at “Z-124” would not be neutral or contradictory — it would be positive, independent ballistic/kinematic evidence favoring the early-miss timing over later first-shot models. It fits the pattern seen in rigorous motion analyses of the Zapruder film from the sniper’s exact vantage point and helps explain why a skilled (but rushed) shooter could miss the first attempt while succeeding on the subsequent, slower-angular-velocity shots.
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I believe that Oswald fired three shots, at around z-153, z-222 and z-312.
The shot at z-312 is the best well confirmed, of course.
It would have taken the bullet about 2.4 frames of the Z-film to travel the 88 yards from Oswald's rifle to JFK's head so it was probably fired in the Z310-311 window. That's assuming an average velocity of 2000 fps for those 88 yards. I doubt that is an exact figure but I'm sure it's in the ballpark.
The shot at z-222 has a lot of support. I think one would have to be firmly wedded to some conspiracy theory to not conclude that both JFK and Connally were wounded at about this time.
I believe that shot was fired at Z220 and struck about Z222. I base that on a 7 frame difference between the shot fired at Z311 and the camera blur at Z318. Of course if the shot was fired at Z310, that changes the arithmetic by one frame. Frame Z227 is badly blurred so that would indicate a shot fired at Z219-220. That fits with the jacket bulge at Z224 and the simultaneous arm raising by JFK and JBC at Z226.
The shot at z-153 has a good deal less support, compared to the other two shots. But I think it is pretty compelling. Going by memory, the Zapruder camera jiggle, the Governor Connally head turn and Rosemary Willis slowing down after that, coming to a stop and looking back at the TSBD, all make a compelling case. And with the tree looming up, if Oswald wanted to get in a shot before the tree, he needed to fire about then.
I think you are in the ballpark. For years I believed the shot was fired at Z151 based on the blurred frame Z158. However someone recently showed me better evidence that Zapruder reacted at Z155. Not only is that frame badly blurred but the frame jumps between Z154 and Z155. The same jump happens at Z226-227 and Z317-318.
And, as I have posted before, the angular speed of the three shots, plus that of the 1908 Olympic Running Deer competition had the following angular speeds in dps (degrees per second).
z-153: 4.8 dps
1908 Running Dear: 3.2 dps
z-222: 1.9 dps
z-312: 0.58 dps
The angular speed being greater for the shot at z-153 then the Olympic competition shooting gives ample reasons why a shot at z-153 could miss wildly.
The first shot, whatever frame it was fired at, was by far the most difficult of the three which would explain Oswald's miss. His target would have been almost directly below him, forcing him to raise the butt end of the rifle and fired downward at a target moving across his line of fire. I believe he would have been in a kneeling position because that is one he would have trained for in the Marines. Raising the butt end of the rifle probably would have forced him to raise up out of the kneeling position into a low crouch, an awkward shooting position. To make things even more difficult, he had the tree about to become an issue. He might well have rushed that first shot. That could cause him to pull the trigger as opposed to squeezing it. When a shooter does that, the tendency is to miss low. The shot didn't have to miss that wildly. JFK was on the extreme right side so a miss by a foot or more could cause him to miss everything.
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It would have taken the bullet about 2.4 frames of the Z-film to travel the 88 yards from Oswald's rifle to JFK's head so it was probably fired in the Z310-311 window. That's assuming an average velocity of 2000 fps for those 88 yards. I doubt that is an exact figure but I'm sure it's in the ballpark.
I believe that shot was fired at Z220 and struck about Z222. I base that on a 7 frame difference between the shot fired at Z311 and the camera blur at Z318. Of course if the shot was fired at Z310, that changes the arithmetic by one frame. Frame Z227 is badly blurred so that would indicate a shot fired at Z219-220. That fits with the jacket bulge at Z224 and the simultaneous arm raising by JFK and JBC at Z226.
Yes. I always use the time the bullet struck. Z-153, Z-222 and z-312 (Frame z-313 is clearly close to 20-55 ms after the bullet struck). I could instead use the time Oswald fired. Or the estimated time he chambered the round. But I go with when the bullet struck, or reached the vicinity of the limousine, as my convention, which most people do as well.
I think you are in the ballpark. For years I believed the shot was fired at Z151 based on the blurred frame Z158. However someone recently showed me better evidence that Zapruder reacted at Z155. Not only is that frame badly blurred but the frame jumps between Z154 and Z155. The same jump happens at Z226-227 and Z317-318.
The first shot, whatever frame it was fired at, was by far the most difficult of the three which would explain Oswald's miss. His target would have been almost directly below him, forcing him to raise the butt end of the rifle and fired downward at a target moving across his line of fire. I believe he would have been in a kneeling position because that is one he would have trained for in the Marines. Raising the butt end of the rifle probably would have forced him to raise up out of the kneeling position into a low crouch, an awkward shooting position. To make things even more difficult, he had the tree about to become an issue. He might well have rushed that first shot. That could cause him to pull the trigger as opposed to squeezing it. When a shooter does that, the tendency is to miss low. The shot didn't have to miss that wildly. JFK was on the extreme right side so a miss by a foot or more could cause him to miss everything.
I agree with this pretty much. I think a miss of a few feet, maybe 3 feet or 5 feet might be required. The bullet has to miss the side of the limousine as well, In the 1908 Olympics, shooters missed an entire target the size of a deer, and they had practice, I assume, at shooting at a moving target. And the angular speed was not as great. So i think it is quite plausible that Oswald could have missed by 3 feet, 5 feet or maybe more.
As far as if the shot was at z-151, z-152, z-153, z-154 or z-155, I have not looked into this too carefully. Knowing the approximate frame is good enough to get the angular speed.
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1. As the Limo turns into Houston the Limo is in the sight for a fraction of a second and recentering after a miss is a pain in the ass.
2. As the Limo travels further down Houston and gets closer to the TSBD, the time for a shot gets progressively less.
3. When the Limo is passing directly by the TSBD, the increased angular velocity is at it's maximum so you can completely forget about the "closest" shot.
4. Which leaves us with the shot as the Limo travels down Elm being the easiest simply because of the incline and the direction of the Limo means that at this angle the Limo stays in the sights the longest and if Oswald misses reacquiring the target is much easier. It's all just simple physics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5qvvLLw/angular-velocity-1.gif)
JohnM
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1. As the Limo turns into Houston the Limo is in the sight for a fraction of a second and recentering after a miss is a pain in the ass.
2. As the Limo travels further down Houston and gets closer to the TSBD, the time for a shot gets progressively less.
3. When the Limo is passing directly by the TSBD, the increased angular velocity is at it's maximum so you can completely forget about the "closest" shot.
4. Which leaves us with the shot as the Limo travels down Elm being the easiest simply because of the incline and the direction of the Limo means that at this angle the Limo stays in the sights the longest and if Oswald misses reacquiring the target is much easier. It's all just simple physics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5qvvLLw/angular-velocity-1.gif)
JohnM
Yes. The stretch from z-222 through z-340 gives the best chance for a hit.
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What are you basing, ".....almost 4 seconds between the first and second shots and almost 5 seconds between the second and third shots"? That's "almost" 10 seconds. That's a very long time and should have/would have attracted "eyeballs" from assorted Dealey Plaza positions toward the sniper's nest. According to Amos Euins, this did Not happen. "POW..............POW/POW"!
It wasn't until JFK's hands went up in front of his throat that most people in DP began to realize what was happening. Some appeared not to have noticed the first shot and if they did, many thought it was a firecracker. It's not surprising that most people did not locate the shooter in time to see shots fired. Even if they did, why would that be of any concern to Oswald. Even if people saw him, what could they do to stop him.
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1. As the Limo turns into Houston the Limo is in the sight for a fraction of a second and recentering after a miss is a pain in the ass.
2. As the Limo travels further down Houston and gets closer to the TSBD, the time for a shot gets progressively less.
3. When the Limo is passing directly by the TSBD, the increased angular velocity is at it's maximum so you can completely forget about the "closest" shot.
4. Which leaves us with the shot as the Limo travels down Elm being the easiest simply because of the incline and the direction of the Limo means that at this angle the Limo stays in the sights the longest and if Oswald misses reacquiring the target is much easier. It's all just simple physics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5qvvLLw/angular-velocity-1.gif)
JohnM
That's an interesting animation. Where did you get it? My only criticism is it shows the scope stationary. Oswald would have been tracking his target as soon as it turned onto Elm if not before. I doubt his scope was stationary at any time.
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That's an interesting animation. Where did you get it? My only criticism is it shows the scope stationary. Oswald would have been tracking his target as soon as it turned onto Elm if not before. I doubt his scope was stationary at any time.
The animation came from a computer program "JFK Reloaded" from which I created the 4 separate POV's and composited them into a single GIF. The reason I showed each view at a stationary angle as the Limo passed, was to show the corresponding angular velocity and therefore demonstrate the difficulty in tracking the shot.
JohnM
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The animation came from a computer program "JFK Reloaded" from which I created the 4 separate POV's and composited them into a single GIF. The reason I showed each view at a stationary angle as the Limo passed, was to show the corresponding angular velocity and therefore demonstrate the difficulty in tracking the shot.
JohnM
That's why Oswald missed everything with his first shot at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-131. (Herb Huskr at "JFK Truth Be Told," claims he spotted a mark on the asphalt in the Secret Service reenactment film that would have been the closest-to-JFK a missing-everything bullet could have possibly come at "Z-124")
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The animation came from a computer program "JFK Reloaded" from which I created the 4 separate POV's and composited them into a single GIF. The reason I showed each view at a stationary angle as the Limo passed, was to show the corresponding angular velocity and therefore demonstrate the difficulty in tracking the shot.
JohnM
I tried this shooting simulation and I found it very difficult to hit JFK twice. I think it took me like 5 attempts because an early miss and the limo speeds up as this programmed driver DOES react correctly . He steps on the gas and gets the limo out of there fast instead of : “Lets almost stop the limo cause Im a little hung over from parting last night till 2am in the morning and I wasn’t thinking clearly
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I found the easiest method was to shoot Greer the driver with a 1st shot asap which causes the limo to come to a stop and then it was easier with only a 2nd shot to hit a stationary JFK. The SS agents didn’t react any faster than in the Z film so IDK if thats a programmed mistake since reaction by SS agents Clint Hill might have been faster if the driver was hit by a 1st shot. However, it still takes about 3 secs to reach JFK which would be enough time for an aimed 2nd shot at the stationary target …, unless JFK reacts faster and ducks down in only 1 sec from hearing 1st shot and seeing driver hit.
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I don’t see how it is possible to have missed the limo. Even if it was a severely undercharged bullet, it still should have hit within 2 feet of the target.
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I don’t see how it is possible to have missed the limo. Even if it was a severely undercharged bullet, it still should have hit within 2 feet of the target.
That would have been amazing if he was trying to shoot the limo. I normally don't like to make assumptions but I'm going to make an assumption in this case. I assume his target was NOT the limo.
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I like the idea of the shooter using an MC rifle with the scope mounted left side of the stock might cause a near miss to the right side of the limo if the 1st shot was somewhere between Z140-Z170. If he is using the scope that is.
If he’s using the iron sights for the 1st shot I’m not so sure he would have missed JFK that far off to the right even if the sights were fixed zero for 200 yds.
The compromise would be the shooter used the scope for the first shot then when he saw he missed to the right, he switched to using the iron sights.
I’m not really convinced of any shot fired prior to Z224 because of lack of reaction by Willis or Betzner or SS agents other than Hickey at Z140ish. The missed shot would have be 2 secs after Z313 if it’s the bolt action rifle. I’m
Sure Dan would agree but I’m not sure if anyone else does 😳
The only other option besides another gunman, is the TSBD shooter using a semi auto rifle or a rifle like Chuck Connor’s The Rifleman. ( he fires 12 shots in about 6 seconds).
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Who said anything about trying to shoot the limo? What I was saying is that it is hard to see how a shot that missed the target (presumably JFK) would also miss the limo.
There is speculation that the shallow back wound was a result of an underpowered bullet that was either defective or deliberately underpowered to leave intact ballistic evidence to frame Oswald. I don’t believe either. The shallow back wound was due to either incompetence of the autopsy doctors or a bullet thst made a sudden change in direction inside the body.