JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on April 12, 2026, 10:44:11 PM
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ME: Would Lee Harvey Oswald have been convicted of assassinating JFK if his case had gone to trial?
GROK: Yes, Lee Harvey Oswald would very likely have been convicted in a Texas state court trial in 1963–1964.
Oswald was charged with murdering President Kennedy (and Officer J.D. Tippit) under Texas law, as there was no federal assassination statute at the time. He never stood trial because Jack Ruby killed him on live television two days after the assassination. Hypothetical assessments, based on contemporaneous evidence and public sentiment, point strongly toward conviction.
Key Evidence Available at the Time
Prosecutors would have presented a strong circumstantial case centered on means, motive, and opportunity:
The rifle: Oswald owned the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (purchased via mail order under an alias). It was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, where he worked. Ballistics linked cartridge cases at the sniper's nest to this rifle, and bullet fragments from the limousine were consistent with it. His palm print and fibers from the shirt he wore that day were on the weapon and related items.
Opportunity and behavior: Oswald was employed at the Depository; the motorcade route passed directly below. He was seen in the building around the time of the shooting. He fled the scene immediately afterward (the only employee to do so), gave false alibis to police (e.g., lunch with coworkers who didn't corroborate), and was arrested after shooting Tippit ~45 minutes later while resisting arrest.
Tippit murder: Strong eyewitness and ballistic links would have been powerful corroboration for the JFK charge. Conviction on Tippit alone was highly probable and would have influenced the JFK jury.
Motive and background: Oswald's Marxist views, defection to the USSR, attempted assassination of General Edwin Walker earlier in 1963, and pro-Castro activities provided context, though not strictly required for conviction.
A Dallas jury in that era—amid national grief, intense media coverage, and overwhelming public belief in his guilt—would have been predisposed to convict. Trials moved quickly then; Ruby's own conviction came in March 1964.
Challenges for the Defense
A competent defense (Oswald reportedly wanted to hire John Abt or similar) could have raised reasonable doubt on points like:The single-bullet theory (later heavily debated).
Rifle accuracy and Oswald's marksmanship.
Chain of custody or forensic limitations of 1963 technology.
Eyewitness reliability and the "grassy knoll" claims.
However, these weaknesses were not as developed in late 1963/early 1964 as they became later. The Warren Commission (reporting in September 1964) hadn't yet formalized many critiques, and conspiracy theories were not as mainstream. Defense arguments about a "patsy" or larger plot would have struggled without concrete evidence.
Mock Trials and Modern Analyses1986 "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald" (with real lawyers Vincent Bugliosi prosecuting and Gerry Spence defending, using actual witnesses): The jury convicted Oswald.
Other simulations (e.g., South Texas College of Law, various student/attorney mocks) have produced hung juries or splits (e.g., 7-5 guilty), showing room for doubt with modern scrutiny.
But these often use post-1964 evidence and hindsight. Contemporaneous views (e.g., Reddit historians, legal commentators) overwhelmingly agree: a 1964 Texas jury would have convicted, likely with a death sentence.
Caveats
Publicity and fairness: Massive pretrial publicity (Oswald paraded before cameras, police statements) could have supported venue change or appeals, but Texas courts were unlikely to acquit on that alone.
Later doubts: The House Select Committee on Assassinations (1979) suggested a probable conspiracy (acoustic evidence, later disputed), and ongoing debates question ballistics, the "magic bullet," and withheld info. Some argue the case wasn't airtight even then.
No direct confession or eyewitness to the JFK shots existed, so it remained largely circumstantial.
Bottom line: In the heated atmosphere of 1963–1964 Dallas, with the evidence then available and no full conspiracy infrastructure exposed, conviction was the probable outcome—likely by a strong majority. A trial might have aired more facts and altered history, but it almost certainly would have ended in "guilty." Modern retrials with today's knowledge are far more debatable.
ME: Would he be convicted today?
GROK: No, Lee Harvey Oswald would probably not be convicted in a modern U.S. trial—most likely resulting in a hung jury or acquittal.
A contemporary trial (in Texas or federal court) would differ dramatically from 1963 due to decades of scrutiny, declassified files, forensic critiques, and cultural shifts. While the core physical evidence still points strongly to Oswald, reasonable doubt would be far easier to establish today.
Key Factors Favoring ConvictionPhysical and ballistic links: Oswald's rifle, palm print, fibers, cartridge cases, and behavior (fleeing, Tippit murder) remain compelling. The Tippit killing would still be a strong corroborating case.
No definitive proof of conspiracy: Recent 2025 document releases added details on CIA operations and Cold War context but introduced no smoking gun for a second shooter or frame-up. Historians and analysts largely affirm the lone-gunman core.
Motive and opportunity: His background, prior assassination attempt on Walker, and presence in the Depository hold up.
Stronger Factors Creating Reasonable Doubt Today
Mock trial outcomes: Multiple modern simulations (with real lawyers, expert witnesses, and juries) frequently end in hung juries. Defense teams exploit:Chain-of-custody issues and 1960s forensics limitations (e.g., paraffin test, bullet fragments).
Critiques of the single-bullet theory.
Discredited or challenged ballistics (e.g., compositional analysis suggesting possible multiple bullets).
Acoustic evidence and witness accounts suggesting grassy knoll shots (HSCA 1979 findings, though later disputed).
Public opinion and jury pool: Polls consistently show ~65% of Americans believe in a conspiracy (Gallup 2023; similar recent figures). A Dallas or national jury would include many skeptics. Pretrial publicity (decades of books, films like JFK, documentaries) would make impartiality difficult, likely forcing venue changes.
Defense advantages:
Expert witnesses on flawed forensics, withheld information (e.g., CIA/FBI omissions), and alternative shooters.
Oswald's "patsy" claim and lack of direct confession or eyewitness to the fatal shots.
Modern standards: Stricter Daubert rules on scientific evidence, better cross-examination of eyewitness reliability, and emphasis on government mistrust.
No DNA or advanced video reconstruction conclusively tying everything together beyond doubt.
Broader context: Decades of conspiracy narratives (CIA, Mafia, Cuba, etc.) create narrative doubt, even if unproven. Recent file releases reinforced skepticism without resolving it.
Likely OutcomeProsecutors could secure a conviction in a low-information, law-and-order jury, but a competent defense (far better resourced than in 1963) would likely create enough doubt for deadlock. This aligns with real-world mock trials where Oswald was "never convicted outright."
Bottom line: The evidence still overwhelmingly implicates Oswald as the shooter. But in today's environment—with hindsight, eroded trust in institutions, and amplified alternative theories—a unanimous "guilty beyond reasonable doubt" verdict would be very difficult. A trial might have clarified more facts historically, but it probably wouldn't have produced the clean conviction many assume. The case remains a Rorschach test for American skepticism.
ME: Please explore single-bullet theory critiques
GROK: The single-bullet theory (SBT)—also derided as the "magic bullet" theory—remains one of the most contested elements of the Warren Commission's 1964 conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating President John F. Kennedy. It proposes that one 6.5mm full-metal-jacketed bullet (Warren Commission Exhibit 399, or CE 399) fired from the sixth-floor Texas School Book Depository window caused all seven non-fatal wounds to Kennedy and Texas Governor John Connally: entering Kennedy's upper back, exiting his throat, then striking Connally in the back/chest (shattering a rib), exiting his chest, passing through his right wrist (shattering the radius bone and depositing fragments), and finally lodging shallowly in his left thigh. The bullet was found (mostly intact) on a gurney at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Critics argue the SBT is physically implausible, required only to reconcile the Zapruder film's tight timing (Kennedy and Connally reacting too quickly for Oswald's bolt-action rifle to fire separate shots), and essential to the lone-gunman narrative. Without it, at least four shots (and likely a second shooter) would be needed. Below is a focused exploration of the primary critiques, drawn from pathologists, ballistics experts, eyewitness accounts, and modern forensic analysis.
1. The Bullet's "Pristine" Condition and Minimal Damage
CE 399 is often called nearly pristine: it weighs about 158.6 grains (original ~160–161), with only slight flattening at the base, no significant deformation, and no visible blood, tissue, clothing fibers, or thread striations despite traversing ~15 layers of clothing, 7 layers of skin, ~15 inches of muscle, a back brace, a rib (pulverized ~4 inches), and a shattered wrist bone. Critics contend a high-velocity rifle bullet should have fragmented or deformed far more after such trauma—especially compared to the heavily fragmented bullet that struck Kennedy's head.
No bullet "magic" is needed, say defenders (e.g., ballistics tests by the Haags or Lattimer), as FMJ Carcano rounds can yaw and slow through soft tissue without extreme damage. But skeptics note the absence of expected deformation and the bullet's clean state as inconsistent with the documented destruction.
2. Trajectory and Alignment Problems
The bullet's path—from the Depository's sixth floor, through Kennedy's neck (slightly downward and right-to-left), then into Connally's right posterior shoulder/armpit—requires precise alignment. Critics, including prominent pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht (HSCA dissenting member), argue it is geometrically impossible:
Kennedy's back wound (third or first thoracic vertebra) to throat exit creates a trajectory that cannot intersect Connally's wounds without an improbable mid-air zig-zag or major adjustment. Connally sat ~1.5 feet ahead on a jump seat, slightly lower and to the right of center; photo analysis (e.g., by NASA engineer Thomas Canning) places him 7–8 inches left of center, making the armpit entry inconsistent.
Wecht's HSCA dissent: "The left-to-right trajectory from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository through Kennedy's neck could not possibly intersect with Connally's right armpit."
Modern 3D forensic reconstruction by Knott Laboratory (2023, commissioned by former Justice Department attorney John Orr) used high-definition laser scans of Dealey Plaza (point clouds of millions of points), photogrammetry on Zapruder film/historic photos, and frame-by-frame modeling of the limousine and occupants. Conclusion: The shooting position, Kennedy's exit wound, and Connally's entry wound are not aligned—"a significant angle difference." CEO Stanley Stoll: "When drawing this line from the sixth floor perch... we found a significant angle difference... Modern science refutes the Warren Commission’s findings."
3. Timing from the Zapruder Film
Zapruder frames show Kennedy reacting to a hit (frames 210–225) and Connally no later than ~240, a window too narrow (1–2 seconds) for two separate aimed shots from Oswald's rifle (minimum ~2.25–2.3 seconds per FBI tests). The SBT collapses this into one bullet passing through both men in <1/100th of a second—too fast to register on more than one frame of the 18.3 fps film. Critics say the men's distinct reactions (Kennedy clutching his throat; Connally's lapel pop, hat-holding, and later grimace) prove separate impacts.
Connally (and his wife) repeatedly rejected the SBT, testifying he heard the first shot, saw Kennedy react, then felt his own hit—consistent with a second bullet.
4. Chain-of-Custody and Discovery Issues
CE 399's provenance is murky: hospital staff (e.g., O.P. Wright, Darrell Tomlinson) could not positively identify it as the bullet they found (descriptions varied: pointed vs. round nose). In 2023, Secret Service agent Paul Landis (riding the follow-up car) revealed he found a mostly intact bullet lodged in the back of the presidential limousine's seat (behind Kennedy) after arriving at Parkland. He pocketed it to prevent souvenir-hunting and placed it on Kennedy's stretcher (not Connally's). Landis now believes this was CE 399 and that it struck only Kennedy—meaning Connally was hit by a different bullet.
This undermines the Warren link of the bullet to Connally's gurney and suggests the SBT's "single bullet" never traversed both men.5. Forensic and Compositional Analysis FlawsNeutron activation analysis (NAA) by Vincent Guinn (1978) claimed bullet fragments in Connally's wrist, the car, and CE 399 came from just two bullets total. Later reanalyses (Randich/Grant 2006; Spiegelman et al. 2007) showed Guinn's assumptions were flawed: antimony/copper variability within the same Mannlicher-Carcano lot/box is too high for unique matching. Many bullets share compositions, so fragments cannot reliably rule out additional bullets or a second shooter.
Overall Impact and ContextThese critiques collectively portray the SBT as a post-hoc invention (credited to Arlen Specter) to force-fit the evidence into a lone-gunman scenario, despite internal Warren Commission doubts (e.g., Senators Russell, Cooper, and Boggs found it improbable). While computer models (e.g., Dale Myers) and some ballistics tests support alignment and bullet behavior, critics like Wecht, the Knott Lab reconstruction, Landis's firsthand account, and compositional reanalyses argue the theory defies physics, anatomy, film evidence, and chain of custody.The SBT debate endures because it is foundational: discard it, and the lone-gunman case collapses. Recent developments (Landis 2023, Knott Lab) have revived scrutiny without resolving it, as no new physical evidence has definitively proven (or disproven) a conspiracy. The theory highlights broader issues of 1960s forensics limitations versus today's tools.
ME: What arguments have been made to rebut the critics of the SBT?
GROK: Defenders of the single-bullet theory (SBT)—including the Warren Commission, ballistics experts, forensic pathologists, and modern analysts like animator Dale Myers and the Haag father-son team—argue that the theory is not "magic" but a straightforward application of physics, wound ballistics, and 3D geometry supported by evidence. They contend that critics rely on oversimplified 2D diagrams, misconceptions about bullet behavior, and selective interpretations of the Zapruder film, while ignoring test firings, computer reconstructions, and the actual seating geometry in the limousine. The SBT remains "persuasive" (per the Warren Report) even if not strictly essential to the lone-gunman conclusion.
Here are the primary rebuttals, organized by the main critiques:
1. The Bullet Was Not "Pristine" or Magically Undamaged
Critics highlight CE 399's near-intact state despite passing through two men. Defenders counter:It is not pristine: The bullet weighs 158.6 grains (original ~160–161), with slight flattening at the base and minor deformation—consistent with losing only a tiny amount of mass. Minute metallic fragments recovered from Connally's wrist match what a tumbling bullet would deposit.
Full-metal-jacket (FMJ) Carcano bullets are exceptionally stable and penetrating: Designed for military use, they yaw/tumble after striking tissue/bone but do not fragment like softer rounds. FBI, Army, and independent tests (including firing into cadavers, gelatin, and animal tissue) produced nearly identical "pristine" bullets. The Haags' 2013 ballistic experiments (using 3D laser scanning and high-speed imaging for Cold Case JFK) confirmed: "It is not magic. It never was magic, and neither is it pristine... this bullet can easily go through two people." The bullet exits Kennedy yawing like a "badly thrown football," explaining Connally's elongated entry wound.
2. Trajectory Alignment Is Straight in 3D (No Zig-Zag)Critics cite impossible geometry or "significant angle difference" (e.g., Knott Laboratory's 2023 laser/point-cloud reconstruction). Rebuttals emphasize:
Accurate limousine and seating geometry resolves it: Connally rode on a jump seat ~6 inches inboard, lower than Kennedy, and turned slightly right at the moment of impact. Kennedy's back seat was ~3 inches higher. When these are modeled in 3D, the path from the sixth-floor window through Kennedy's back/neck to Connally's back/chest/wrist/thigh is a perfectly straight line.
Dale Myers' Emmy-winning 3D animation (10-year project, 2003 ABC documentary): Using photogrammetry, blueprints, and Zapruder film data, it back-tracks the bullet to a narrow cone encompassing only the sniper's nest. Peer-reviewed at release; shows exact alignment.
Earlier work (Failure Analysis Associates for the American Bar Association) produced similar 3D graphics proving a single bullet could cause all seven wounds. Critics' diagrams ignore the jump-seat offset and car configuration.
Knott Lab's findings (claiming misalignment) are disputed by defenders who argue the lab did not accurately model the limousine's interior or occupants' exact positions.
3. Timing and Zapruder Film Reactions Are Consistent
Critics note the ~1.5–2-second window is too tight for separate shots and that Kennedy/Connally react at different moments. Responses:
Neuromuscular reaction delay: The bullet passes through both men in a fraction of a second (too fast for more than one Zapruder frame). Visible reactions (Kennedy clutching throat; Connally's lapel "pop" at frames 223–224, hat-holding, grimace) align with one impact plus normal human delay.
Lapel pop evidence: Myers highlights the right-side lapel of Connally's jacket bulging outward exactly when the bullet would strike—visible evidence of internal force from the same projectile.
4. Chain-of-Custody, Paul Landis, and Other Recent Claims
Paul Landis (2023): His account (finding a mostly intact bullet in the limousine seat and placing it on Kennedy's gurney) is questioned due to 60-year delay in reporting, contradiction with contemporaneous Secret Service/hospital records linking CE 399 to Connally's stretcher, and lack of corroboration from other agents. Even if accepted, defenders note it does not disprove the SBT—it could reflect an undercharged round or simple transfer error.
Forensic reanalyses (e.g., neutron activation): While some question matching, wound ballistics, doctors' testimony (Parkland surgeons and Connally himself believed one bullet caused his wounds), and the three Depository cartridge cases still support only two non-fatal bullets total.
Broader Context
The Warren Commission called the evidence "persuasive" after expert testimony; the HSCA's forensic panel largely upheld it. Modern recreations (Haags' laser/Doppler work, Myers' animation) use tools unavailable in 1964 and consistently affirm plausibility. Defenders argue the SBT is the only scenario that fits the physical evidence, timing, and cartridge count without invoking an undetected second shooter or additional bullets.
Critics remain unconvinced, and the debate is polarized—SBT skeptics see it as a post-hoc rationalization, while proponents view attacks as ignoring physics and geometry. No new physical evidence has overturned the core ballistics in 60+ years, but public skepticism endures. For primary visuals, Myers' animation and the Haags' tests are widely cited as the strongest technical rebuttals.
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ME: Would Lee Harvey Oswald have been convicted of assassinating JFK if his case had gone to trial?
ME: Would Lee Harvey Oswald have been convicted of assassinating JFK if his case had gone to trial?
In 1964, in Texas and with Henry Wade as prosecutor and the media proclaiming his guilt for months, the answer is: probably yes.
A far better question would be: would he get a fair trial in Texas? The answer to that is: probably not.
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ME: Would Lee Harvey Oswald have been convicted of assassinating JFK if his case had gone to trial?
In 1964, in Texas and with Henry Wade as prosecutor and the media proclaiming his guilt for months, the answer is: probably yes.
A far better question would be: would he get a fair trial in Texas? The answer to that is: probably not.
Dear Martin "Useful Idiot" Weidmann,
You should have read the whole post.
GROK's saying Oswald would probably not be found guilty today will warm the cockles of your zombified heart.
-- Tom
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Dear Martin "Useful Idiot" Weidmann,
You should have read the whole post.
GROK's saying Oswald would probably not be found guilty today will warm the cockles of your zombified heart.
-- Tom
I don't even know what or who GROK is. But even if I did, I couldn't care less. Unlike you, I am capable of thinking on my own.
And for what it is worth, I do actually agree that today Oswald very likely would not be found guilty.
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I do actually agree that today Oswald very likely would not be found guilty.
Of course you do, because very few people understand and are able to explain the complexities of the Single Bullet Hypothesis and realize that the HSCA's "Dictabelt Analysis" has been disproved, etc., etc.
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Of course you do, because very few people understand and are able to explain the complexities of the Single Bullet Hypothesis, etc.
Let me guess, you are one of the few who do understand the Single Bullet Theory.... Pfff what a pathetic loser you truly are!
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Let me guess, you are one of the few who do understand the Single Bullet Theory.... Pfff what a pathetic loser you truly are!
That "Pfff" proves what I've suspected for a long time: You're not only zombified by KGB disinformation regarding the JFKA, but beans as well.
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That "Pfff" proves what I've suspected for a long time: You're not only zombified by KGB disinformation regarding the JFKA, but beans as well.
You say stupid things like this, exposing you unhealthy obsession with the KGB, and still expect people to consider you to be of sound mind. Hilarious!
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You say stupid things like this, exposing you unhealthy obsession with the KGB, and still expect people to consider you to be of sound mind. Hilarious!
Dear Martin,
What's ironic is that you, like me, are anti-Trump, but you don't realize that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin installed him as our "president" on 20 January 2017 so that he could wittingly or unwittingly tear us apart, and did so as a final step of a process that began in 1959 when the Kremlin realized that the USSR and the Warsaw Pact couldn't defeat the U.S. and NATO militarily.
One step of said process was its publishing an anti-CIA / anti-Clay Shaw article in a Communist-owned Italian newspaper three days after overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful Jim Garrison arrested Shaw on suspicion of organizing a homosexual "thrill-kill" assassination of JFK.
Which eventually led, of course, to Comrade Oliver Stone's 1991 self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") film, "JFK."
How many times have you watched it, now?
Sad!
-- Tom
PS Anyone who is interested in learning more about the KGB's 1959 "Master Plan" can go to Substack (for free!) and read my 500-plus (free!) articles at my page, "How the KGB Zombified the CIA and the FBI."
At last count, about 1,500 people are "following" me there.
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Dear Martin,
What's ironic is that you, like me, are anti-Trump, but you don't realize that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin installed him as our "president" on 20 January 2017 so that he could wittingly or unwittingly tear us apart, and did so as a final step of a process that began in 1959 when the Kremlin realized that the USSR and the Warsaw Pact couldn't defeat the U.S. and NATO militarily.
One step of said process was its publishing an anti-CIA / anti-Clay Shaw article in a Communist-owned Italian newspaper three days after overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful Jim Garrison arrested Shaw on suspicion of organizing a homosexual "thrill-kill" assassination of JFK.
Which eventually led, of course, to Comrade Oliver Stone's 1991 self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") film, "JFK."
How many times have you watched it, now?
Sad!
-- Tom
What's ironic is that you, like me, are anti-Trump, but you don't realize that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin installed him as our "president" on 20 January 2017
Does Russia meddle in elections in other countries? Sure they do, but so does the USA. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. If you want to be paranoid about it, then be paranoid. At my age, I couldn't care less. As far as I am concerned this world has been on a self destruct course for many years and things will get worse before they get better. In fact, you don't need the Russians to f*ck up the world or even the country. All you need to do is leave it to the corrupt politicians and their special interest groups.
Trump isn't only a complete idiot; he's also a the biggest threat for world peace, but no matter who you want to blame at the end of the day millions of American idiots voted him into power, so if you want to blame somebody, blame them.
Which eventually led, of course, to Comrade Oliver Stone's 1991 self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") film, "JFK."
How many times have you watched it, now?
Never! I saw parts of it, but it doesn't interest me, just like I am not interested in the Parkland Hospital movie and all the other fiction they put out there.
In my flower power days I might have cared about making the world a better place and worry about BS like this, but believe me _ you should try it - when you grow up you will see more clearly than even that nothing of substance will ever change for the better.
The aboriginals were right when they compared two countries combating for power to two fleas fighting over who owns the dog that they live on. It's pathetic!
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Dear Martin,
What's ironic is that you, like me, are anti-Trump, but you don't realize that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin installed him as our "president" on 20 January 2017 so that he could wittingly or unwittingly tear us apart, and did so as a final step of a process that began in 1959 when the Kremlin realized that the USSR and the Warsaw Pact couldn't defeat the U.S. and NATO militarily.
One step of said process was its publishing an anti-CIA / anti-Clay Shaw article in a Communist-owned Italian newspaper three days after overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful Jim Garrison arrested Shaw on suspicion of organizing a homosexual "thrill-kill" assassination of JFK.
Which eventually led, of course, to Comrade Oliver Stone's 1991 self-described mythological ("to counter the myth of the Warren Report") film, "JFK."
How many times have you watched it, now?
Sad!
-- Tom
PS Anyone who is interested in learning more about the KGB's 1959 "Master Plan" can go to Substack (for free!) and read my 500-plus (free!) articles at my page, "How the KGB Zombified the CIA and the FBI."
At last count, about 1,500 people were "following" me there.
Edited and bumped for gullible Martin Weidmann (and others who might be interested).
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Maybe, probably.
One might wonder if a criminal court proceeding, while necessary for justice, is the right mechanism to determine who (if anyone) was behind or colluded with LHO on 11.22.
LBJ was deeply committed to avoiding a nuke war with Russia, fearing LHO-KGB or G2 links. A reasonable enough concern.
State Department careers, including that of the Ambassador to Mexico, were ruined for even wanting to pursue LHO-G2 connections.
The WC was committed to the LN narrative from its creation.
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Maybe, probably.
One might wonder if a criminal court proceeding, while necessary for justice, is the right mechanism to determine who (if anyone) was behind or colluded with LHO on 11.22.
LBJ was deeply committed to avoiding a nuke war with Russia, fearing LHO-KGB or G2 links. A reasonable enough concern.
State Department careers, including that of the Ambassador to Mexico, were ruined for even wanting to pursue LHO-G2 connections.
The WC was committed to the LN narrative from its creation.
The WC was committed to the LN narrative from its creation.
Exactly right! The WC report was a political document and not the result of a honest and thorough investigation.
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Maybe, probably.
One might wonder if a criminal court proceeding, while necessary for justice, is the right mechanism to determine who (if anyone) was behind or colluded with LHO on 11.22.
LBJ was deeply committed to avoiding a nuke war with Russia, fearing LHO-KGB or G2 links. A reasonable enough concern.
State Department careers, including that of the Ambassador to Mexico, were ruined for even wanting to pursue LHO-G2 connections.
The WC was committed to the LN narrative from its creation.
Am I correct in assuming that your conclusion that the assassination was a conspiracy is based on "Flash-bang in the bushes!," "The entry wound to JBC's wrist was on its dorsal side!," and "The three (or four!) shots covered only [fill in the blank] seconds!"?
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TG-
You are incorrect that I conclude there was a JFKA CT.
I suspect there was.
Yes, the GK smoke-and-bang show suggests someone conspired with LHO, who I suspect was the TSBD6 sniper.
The smell of gunsmoke was heavy in DP in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, but the breeze was blowing from the Third St. Overpass to the TSBD. So LHO's M-C was not the source of that gunsmoke.
The entry wound to the dorsal (wristwatch) side of JBC's wrist is inexplicable---so said JBC's surgeon, Dr. Shaw. The doctor had worked on 700 wartime bullet-shot victims.
Yes, it appears to me JBC is shot ~Z-295. Do the math.
So we are on different pages on this one.
So what? That is what a forum is for.
LBJ wanted to, and nearly did, entirely suffocate investigations into LHO's KGB-G2 ties.
No nuke war with Russia...a reasonable-enough caution.
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TG-
You are incorrect that I conclude there was a JFKA CT.
I suspect there was.
Yes, the GK smoke-and-bang show suggests someone conspired with LHO, who I suspect was the TSBD6 sniper.
The smell of gunsmoke was heavy in DP in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, but the breeze was blowing from the Third St. Overpass to the TSBD. So LHO's M-C was not the source of that gunsmoke.
The entry wound to the dorsal (wristwatch) side of JBC's wrist is inexplicable---so said JBC's surgeon, Dr. Shaw. The doctor had worked on 700 wartime bullet-shot victims.
Yes, it appears to me JBC is shot ~Z-295. Do the math.
So we are on different pages on this one.
So what? That is what a forum is for.
LBJ wanted to, and nearly did, entirely suffocate investigations into LHO's KGB-G2 ties.
No nuke war with Russia...a reasonable-enough caution.
The problem is, only three shots were fired, the first shot missed everything half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming, and the second shot struck both JFK and JBC at approximately Z-222.
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The WC was committed to the LN narrative from its creation.
Exactly right! The WC report was a political document and not the result of a honest and thorough investigation.
...and thorough investigation
This is why you lose, you will only accept a finding that mirrors your own flawed, inept, biased research. Pathetic!
The Warren Commission's findings were actually quite thorough which included the testimony or depositions of 552 witnesses and more than 3,100 exhibits, making a total of more than 16,000 pages. And the HSCA who were trying their damnedest to find a conspiracy, came to the same conclusion that Oswald fired three shots and killed Kennedy and wounded Connally.
(https://cdn.rrauction.com/auction/478/3359734_1.jpg)
BTW, after 62 years and the additional research of thousands of researcher who have collectively spent IMO millions of hours investigating this crime are still no closer to discovering who was behind the conspiracy and that's because there was no conspiracy, a lone nut who hated America, defected to the enemy and wanted to be known forever, took his rifle to work and assassinated Kennedy. Case Closed!
JohnM
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What's ironic is that you, like me, are anti-Trump, but you don't realize that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin installed him as our "president" on 20 January 2017
Does Russia meddle in elections in other countries? Sure they do, but so does the USA. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. If you want to be paranoid about it, then be paranoid. At my age, I couldn't care less. As far as I am concerned this world has been on a self destruct course for many years and things will get worse before they get better. In fact, you don't need the Russians to f*ck up the world or even the country. All you need to do is leave it to the corrupt politicians and their special interest groups.
ME: What do you say to people who claim that "Russia's meddling in our 2016 election was no worse than the U.S.'s meddling in other countries over the years"?
GROK: The claim is a textbook example of whataboutism (or tu quoque fallacy): it doesn't defend or minimize Russia's specific actions in 2016; it just points at someone else's past sins to deflect scrutiny. Here's a clear, evidence-based rebuttal that doesn't rely on partisan spin, denial of history, or pretending great powers play nice.
1. Both are wrong — but "both wrong" ≠ "equally bad or equivalent"
The United States has interfered in foreign elections and politics for decades (Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Chile 1973, Italy's post-WWII elections, and dozens more documented cases). These were often overt or covert regime-change efforts tied to Cold War containment of Soviet expansion. They frequently involved money, arms, propaganda, and sometimes coups with real body counts and long-term blowback. Critics of U.S. foreign policy (left, right, and libertarian) have rightly hammered this for generations.
Russia's 2016 operation was different in kind, scale, and context:
It was cyber-enabled information warfare against the sovereign electoral process of a peer nuclear power and longstanding democracy — not a small client state or unstable developing nation.
U.S. intelligence consensus (FBI, CIA, NSA, and later Senate Intelligence Committee reports) documented Russian military intelligence (GRU) hacking the DNC and leaking emails via WikiLeaks, plus a coordinated social-media influence campaign by the Internet Research Agency (troll farm) that reached millions of Americans. The goal, per the January 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment, was to "undermine public faith in the U.S. democratic process," boost a candidate seen as Russia-friendly, and deepen polarization.
Cost to Russia: pennies compared to a coup or invasion. Impact: no tanks, no deaths, but measurable erosion of trust in elections that persists today. This was hybrid warfare, not Cold War proxy games.
Equating a $10–30 million disinformation/hacking op (estimates vary) aimed at a stable democracy with decades of U.S.-backed coups that sometimes killed thousands is false equivalence. One is subversion of norms; the other was often kinetic nation-building (or destruction). Russia's 2016 effort was "worse" in the precise sense that it weaponized our own open system against itself without firing a shot — cheaper, deniable, and scalable in the internet age.
2. Context and timing matter — this isn't symmetric Cold War chess
U.S. meddling peaked during an existential ideological struggle against Soviet totalitarianism that killed tens of millions. Many interventions were framed (rightly or wrongly) as stopping communist takeovers in vulnerable spots. Russia in 2016 was a declining revanchist power under Putin, post-Cold War, using asymmetric tools to weaken the post-1991 liberal order that had contained it. Putin has openly called the USSR's collapse "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century." This wasn't defensive containment; it was offensive disruption.
Russia doesn't get a pass because "the U.S. did it in 1953." That's like saying China's South China Sea militarization is fine because the U.S. had the Monroe Doctrine. Great-power hypocrisy exists on all sides. It doesn't magically make the current interference benign.
3. Russia denies, doubles down, and repeats — the U.S. at least sometimes self-corrects
Russia still officially denies any 2016 election interference (despite mountains of forensic evidence on the hacks). It treats "active measures" as standard doctrine.
The U.S. has congressional oversight, declassified histories, and public reckonings (Church Committee in the 1970s curbed some CIA excesses). Imperfect, but real accountability mechanisms exist in a democracy. Authoritarian Russia has none.
Russia has kept doing it: documented interference in European elections (France 2017, Germany, Brexit influence ops), U.S. midterms, and ongoing influence campaigns. This is state policy, not a one-off historical sin.
4. The "no worse" claim is a shield, not an argument
It dodges the actual question: Was Russia's interference real, deliberate, and damaging to American sovereignty? Yes. Does past U.S. behavior justify or neutralize it? No — that's moral relativism. If you apply the same logic consistently, then every nation's bad acts become excusable forever ("China's Uyghur camps? Well, U.S. slavery!"). Truth-seeking requires judging each case on its merits, not score-settling.
If the goal is consistency, condemn all foreign election meddling — U.S., Russian, Chinese, Iranian, whatever. But using America's historical baggage to wave away Russia's 2016 operation (and its sequel in 2020 and beyond) is just special pleading for one side. It weakens deterrence against future attacks on democratic processes worldwide.
In short: Russia's meddling doesn't become "not worse" because America has dirty hands. It was a targeted, low-cost attack on the heart of U.S. self-governance. Calling it out isn't hypocrisy — it's rejecting the idea that might (or past precedent) makes right.
ME: Please give me a breakdown, on a case-by-case basis, as to why the U.S. intervened in twenty elections or countries' "politics."
GROK: Here is a factual, case-by-case breakdown of 20 well-documented U.S. interventions in foreign elections or internal politics. These draw primarily from declassified U.S. government documents (e.g., State Department Office of the Historian, Church Committee reports), scholarly databases like Dov Levin’s (which identified 81 U.S. partisan electoral interventions from 1946–2000), and historical records.
I focused on a representative sample across decades, mostly Cold War-era (when most occurred) but including a few post-Cold War cases. The primary U.S. rationale in nearly all Cold War cases was containment of communism under the Truman Doctrine and domino theory—preventing Soviet influence, leftist governments, or “another Cuba.” Economic interests (e.g., protecting U.S. companies) and regional stability sometimes played supporting roles. Interventions ranged from covert funding and propaganda to overt pressure; outcomes varied and are noted only for context.
Italy, 1948 election
The CIA funneled millions of dollars to the Christian Democrats via the Catholic Church and other channels, ran anti-communist propaganda, and coordinated with Italian-American groups.
Why: Prevent a communist/socialist victory in the first post-WWII election; fear of Soviet-backed takeover in Western Europe.
Philippines, 1953 election
CIA operative Edward Lansdale essentially ran the campaign of Ramon Magsaysay (Defense Minister), providing funding, strategy, and anti-communist messaging.
Why: Defeat the Hukbalahap communist insurgency and install a pro-U.S. leader to stabilize a key Pacific ally.
Iran, 1952 election and 1953 coup
CIA spent funds to elect anti-Mossadegh candidates in parliament; this preceded the full coup (Operation Ajax) that ousted Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh.
Why: Counter Mossadegh’s oil nationalization (seen as opening doors to Soviet influence) and protect Western oil access.
Indonesia, 1955 election
CIA provided over $1 million to centrist and Muslim parties to reduce support for Sukarno and the Communist Party.
Why: Prevent communist gains and Soviet alignment in Southeast Asia.
Lebanon, 1957 election
U.S. provided $10 million in economic aid and $2 million in military aid tied to pro-government projects, plus covert support for Christian parties.
Why: Counter communist and Nasser/Syrian-Egyptian influence in the Middle East.
Greece, 1958 and 1961 elections
CIA spent large sums on strategies to back the National Radical Union (and Centre Union in 1961) against socialist/communist parties.
Why: Block leftist electoral victories and maintain NATO stability.
Bolivia, 1964–1966 elections/politics
CIA financed media, unions, student groups, and parties (including MNR) with over $1 million to break communist and Cuban influence; later funded rivals to legitimize elections.
Why: Create a stable pro-U.S. government amid perceived communist threats.
Brazil, 1962 election influence (pre-1964 coup)
CIA and AFL-CIO channeled funds to anti-Goulart forces; U.S. Information Service ran anti-communist campaigns.
Why: Prevent João Goulart (viewed as a communist demagogue) from consolidating power and creating “a second Cuba.”
Chile, 1964 election
CIA spent ~$2.6–4 million funding Eduardo Frei Montalva and anti-Allende propaganda.
Why: Thwart Soviet influence and a Marxist victory.
Chile, 1970 election and 1970–1973 destabilization
CIA ran propaganda, funded opponents, and supported efforts (including the Schneider kidnapping) to block Salvador Allende’s confirmation; later backed opposition leading to the coup.
Why: Prevent a democratically elected Marxist government aligned with the USSR/Cuba.
Japan, 1955–1969 elections
CIA provided annual covert funding ($2–10 million) and advice to the Liberal Democratic Party.
Why: Ensure a pro-U.S., anti-communist government as a bulwark in Asia.
Dominican Republic, 1966 election
U.S. provided financial aid, media support, and advice to Joaquín Balaguer.
Why: Install a stable, pro-U.S. government after earlier instability.
El Salvador, 1984 election
Diplomatic pressure, media support, and covert funding for José Napoleón Duarte against leftist guerrillas.
Why: Prevent a communist/FMLN victory during Central American civil wars.
Nicaragua, 1984 and 1990 elections
Funding and support for anti-Sandinista opposition (including boycotts and later heavy aid to Violeta Chamorro’s coalition).
Why: Undermine the Soviet/Cuban-aligned Sandinista government.
Panama, 1984 election
CIA and other channels funded Nicolás Ardito Barletta’s campaign.
Why: Support a candidate aligned with U.S. interests amid regional tensions.
Albania, 1991–1992 elections
Financial aid, training, media support, and public embassy backing for the Democratic Party; threats to withhold aid if socialists won.
Why: Accelerate anti-socialist transition after communism’s fall.
Serbia (Yugoslavia), 2000 election
$41 million in overt/covert support (training, materials, monitors) to opposition against Slobodan Milošević.
Why: Remove a leader seen as destabilizing the Balkans and violating human rights.
Mongolia, 1996 election
National Endowment for Democracy funded opposition parties, provided campaign training, and distributed materials to oust the former communist party.
Why: Promote pro-democracy, pro-market forces and foreign investment post-Soviet era.
Malta, 1971 election
Covert aid to the Nationalist Party against the Labour Party.
Why: Maintain a pro-Western government.
Costa Rica, 1966 election
AFL-CIO contacts and support for the National Liberation Party.
Why: Ensure an anti-communist victory in a strategically located democracy.
These cases illustrate a pattern rooted in the geopolitical realities of the Cold War and immediate post-Cold War period. U.S. policymakers viewed many leftist movements as Soviet proxies. Not every intervention succeeded, and some (e.g., Chile, Iran) produced long-term blowback. Post-2000 examples exist but are fewer and often more overt/democracy-promotion framed. For full primary sources, see the Church Committee (1975), State Department histories, or Levin’s dataset.
ME: In how many of them was it primarily to halt or slow down the spread of Communism?
GROK: Primarily to halt or slow the spread of Communism: 16–17 out of the 20 cases.
This assessment is based on declassified U.S. documents, scholarly analyses (e.g., Dov Levin’s dataset on partisan electoral interventions), and historical consensus for the Cold War era. U.S. policymakers routinely framed interventions through the lens of containment (Truman Doctrine, domino theory): preventing Soviet-aligned leftist/communist parties or governments from gaining or consolidating power. Economic interests, regional stability, and anti-nationalism often overlapped but were usually secondary or justified via the communist threat.
Clear Yes (Primary Motivation: Anti-Communism/Containment) — 16 cases
Italy 1948: Explicitly to block a strong Communist Party victory and Soviet influence in Western Europe.
Philippines 1953: Against the Huk communist insurgency; install a pro-U.S. leader.
Indonesia 1955: Counter Communist Party (PKI) gains and Soviet alignment.
Lebanon 1957: Counter communist and Nasserist (Soviet-leaning) influence.
Greece 1958/1961: Block socialist/communist parties; maintain NATO stability.
Bolivia 1964–1966: Break communist and Cuban influence.
Brazil 1962: Against Goulart, viewed as enabling communist elements ("another Cuba").
Chile 1964: Anti-Allende Marxist/Soviet-aligned forces.
Chile 1970–1973: Prevent and destabilize Allende’s Marxist government.
Japan 1955–1969: Fund LDP to ensure anti-communist bulwark.
El Salvador 1984: Against FMLN communist guerrillas.
Nicaragua 1984/1990: Undermine Soviet/Cuban-aligned Sandinistas.
Costa Rica 1966: Ensure anti-communist victory.
Albania 1991–1992: Accelerate post-communist transition; support anti-socialists.
Mongolia 1996: Oust lingering communist structures; promote markets/democracy.
Malta 1971: Against Labour Party (seen as socialist/left-leaning).
Dominican Republic 1966 is a borderline yes: post-civil war stability after leftist instability, with anti-communist undertones common in the era.Mixed or Not Primarily Communism — 3–4 cases
Iran 1953: Oil nationalization by Mossadegh (a nationalist, not communist) was central. The Tudeh Party threat was cited but widely viewed as exaggerated or a rhetorical smokescreen; recent scholarship emphasizes economic/oil motives over imminent communist takeover. +1
Panama 1984: Support for a candidate aligned with U.S. interests (canal, stability); more narco/political than ideological communism by this point.
Serbia 2000: Remove Milošević over Balkans instability, ethnic cleansing, and human rights—not communism (post-Cold War).
Key Context
Cold War pattern: The vast majority of U.S. interventions (per Levin’s 81 cases 1946–2000) occurred under containment logic. Even where local communists weren’t in imminent control, policymakers often invoked Soviet proxy fears.
Exceptions grew post-1990: Democracy promotion, stability, or other goals became more prominent as the Soviet threat receded.
Nuance: "Primarily" means the dominant documented rationale in internal deliberations and public justifications. Overlap with other motives (e.g., protecting U.S. firms in Chile/Latin America) was common, but communism/containment was the overarching strategic frame.
This isn’t a defense of the interventions—many had significant blowback and moral costs—but a factual categorization based on the historical record. U.S. actions were far more frequent than Soviet/Russian ones during this period, reflecting superpower competition.
Trump isn't only a complete idiot; he's also the biggest threat for world peace, but no matter who you want to blame at the end of the day millions of American idiots voted him into power, so if you want to blame somebody, blame them.
Fifty-eight years (it started in 1959; see above) of KGB disinformation, "active measures," and mole-based strategic deception counterintelligence operations waged against us and our NATO allies dumbed-down and/or made paranoic/apathetic our body politic to such a degree that Putin was able to install Trump as our useful idiot "president" on 20 January 2017.
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Oswald would have easily been convicted of both murders and almost certainly would have been sentenced to death. I have serious doubts that the sentence would have ever been carried out. The infamous Clutter family murders in 1959 were also committed in November. It took 5 1/2 years for them to exhaust the appeals process before Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were hanged for the crimes. A similar length appeals process would have delayed Oswald's execution until 1969. By that year, there was a de facto moratorium on executions as the Supreme Court considered the constitutionality of the death penalty. In 1972 the Supreme Court ruled by a 5-4 margin that while the death penalty was constitutional, it created very specific guidelines for how it could be applied. They ruled that all current death penalty statutes failed to meet those guidelines and vacated all existing death sentences. In so doing, SCOTUS spared the lives of Sirhan Sirhan and Charles Manson as well as hundreds of other condemned convicts. Had Oswald been on death row at the time, he too would have been spared and the little bastard might still be doing time in the Texas Penitentiary. For that reason, I remain grateful to Jack Ruby. He did us all a huge favor by exterminating Oswald. I just hope Oswald suffered a great deal before he took his last breath.
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Oswald would have easily been convicted of both murders and almost certainly would have been sentenced to death. I have serious doubts that the sentence would have ever been carried out. The infamous Clutter family murders in 1959 were also committed in November. It took 5 1/2 years for them to exhaust the appeals process before Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were hanged for the crimes. A similar length appeals process would have delayed Oswald's execution until 1969. By that year, there was a de facto moratorium on executions as the Supreme Court considered the constitutionality of the death penalty. In 1972 the Supreme Court ruled by a 5-4 margin that while the death penalty was constitutional, it created very specific guidelines for how it could be applied and they ruled that all current death penalty statutes failed to meet those guidelines and vacated all existing death sentences. In so doing, SCOTUS spared the lives of Sirhan Sirhan and Charles Manson as well as hundreds of other condemned convicts. Had Oswald been on death row at the time, he too would have been spared and the little bastard might still be doing time in the Texas Penitentiary. For that reason, I remain grateful to Jack Ruby. He did us all a huge favor by exterminating Oswald. I just hope Oswald suffered a great deal before he took his last breath.
That's interesting.
Oswald was ready to die.
He wrote in his "Historic Diary" about his suicide attempt and after he kills General Walker, Oswald writes in his Walker Note "If I'm still alive" obviously fully expecting to be killed by the Police.
And when arrested in the Texas Theater he pulls out his revolver and tries to kill McDonald, an act which if he succeeded would mean instant death. "Suicide by cop"
Also when he was arrested and riding back to DPHQ after he's told "I hear they burn for murder." Oswald replies with "Well, they say it just takes a second to die".
Oswald was unhinged with a death wish!
JohnM