JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Fred Litwin on March 18, 2026, 11:55:23 AM
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Mark Lane and Charles Brehm
Charles Brehm at the Dallas County Sheriff's Office on November 22, 1963.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_9eb6ebbf8ec84ab98f951740eb47fa21~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_392,h_586,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_avif,quality_auto/325b1c_9eb6ebbf8ec84ab98f951740eb47fa21~mv2.png)
Charles Brehm and his son were witnesses to the JFK assassination, Here is the FBI report:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_d04e2df08023491b99664fe6d29f3c82~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_725,h_976,al_c,q_90,enc_avif,quality_auto/325b1c_d04e2df08023491b99664fe6d29f3c82~mv2.png)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_73f1bdd2d47e4b06bd83ab0b43b59991~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_501,al_c,lg_1,q_90,enc_avif,quality_auto/325b1c_73f1bdd2d47e4b06bd83ab0b43b59991~mv2.png)
Brehm told the FBI that the "shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets."
Here is the Charles Brehm segment from the film Rush to Judgment: (1:04:20)
Mark Lane: Mr. Brehm, where were you on November 22 1963?
Charles Brehm: I had taken my five year old son downtown to see the Presidential parade.
Mark Lane: This is a picture taken by Mr. Nix of the limousine at the time the shots were fired. Do you see yourself and your boy in that picture?
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_be1f0d68019847a1a48209bb9d6bad33~mv2.png)
Still from Ruch to Judgment showing location of Charles Brehm.
Charles Brehm: Yes, sir. This is myself, and this is my son. On this frame here where the first shot hit the President, I would say that the, he was possibly 30 feet away when the first bullet struck, moved a little closer and was possibly 20 to 25 feet away when the second bullet hit.
Mark Lane: Did you see the effect of the bullets upon the President?
Charles Brehm: When the second bullet hit, there was, the hair seemed to go flying. It was very definite then that he was struck in the head with the second bullet. And
yes, sir, I very definitely saw effects of the second bullet.
Mark Lane: Did you see any particles of the President's skull fly when the bullet struck him in the head?
Charles Brehm: I saw a piece fly over, oh, in the area of the curb where I was standing.
Mark Lane: And in which direction did that fly?
Charles Brehm: It seemed to have have come left and back.
Mark Lane: In other words, the skull particle flew to the left and to the rear of the Presidential limousine.
Charles Brehm: Sir, whatever it was that I saw, did fall both in that direction and over into the curb there.
Mark Lane: You were a ranger during the war, correct?
Charles Brehm: Yes, sir, I was a ranger during the war. Took part in the invasion of France and was shot a couple of times. So, as I say, it's possibly like swimming. I hadn't heard that sound for many a year, but you don't forget it once, once you've heard a shot rounding, coming close to you.
Mark Lane: Did you speak with newsmen on November 22 and tell them what you saw?
Charles Brehm: Yes, sir. And told them simply that there, two shots had hit the president and the direction that I had thought the bullets had come from.
Mark Lane: Did you at any time that day make a statement which was televised?
Charles Brehm: Yes, sir.
Brehm video
Charles Brehm: Fortunately, I was probably 15 to 20 feet away from the president when it happened.
Newsman: Tell us exactly what you saw, sir,
Charles Brehm: He was coming down the street, and my five year old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Palmer street, and I asked Joe to wave to him, and Joe waved, and I waved in the ...man, (crying)
Newsman: That's all right, sir.
Charles Brehm: He was waving back. He was, he was. the shot rang out, and he swung down in the seat, and his wife reached up toward him. They were slumping down, and the second shot went off, and it just knocked him down from the seat. I'm positive it had hit him. I hope it didn't, but I'm positive that it hit him, and he went all the way down in the car. Then they speeded up, and I didn't know what was going on, so I just grabbed the boy and fell on him, and hopes there wasn't a maniac around. I can't help you more but I won't forget it.
end of Brehm video
Mark Lane: Did you make a statement to the Dallas sheriff's office?
Charles Brehm: Yes, I did.
Mark Lane: How long did you remain in the Dallas sheriff's office that day?
Charles Brehm: I was, say about three hours to four hours.
Mark Lane: Were you among the closest witnesses to the limousine when the shot struck the President?
Charles Brehm: Yes, sir, I would have to say that, if not the closest, one of the closest to the unfortunate incident. I did get a view of something I'll never forget.
Mark Lane: Were you called as a witness by the Warren Commission?
Charles Brehm: No, I was not called by the Warren Commission to testify.
Lane tries to use Brehm as a grassy knoll witness based on the movement of skull fragments after the head shot. But, as we all know, the head material (skull, scalp, blood, brain tissue, brain fluids) flew upward and forward and only seemed to go back and to left because the limousine was moving forward.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_fb8f70957d2c4d06a4daba259c962966~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_450,h_512,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_avif,quality_auto/325b1c_fb8f70957d2c4d06a4daba259c962966~mv2.png)
Analysis of the Zapruder film by Itek Corporation.
Here is what Brehm thought of Lane's conclusion: (page 61 of The Scavengers and Critics of the Warren Report by Lawrence Schiller and Richard Lewis)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_11f4ff0c238f4317859f16e97dfab11d~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_474,h_427,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_avif,quality_auto/325b1c_11f4ff0c238f4317859f16e97dfab11d~mv2.jpg)
So, why didn't Lane ask Brehm where he thoughts the shots came from?
Well, he DID ask Brehm, but he cut out his answer from the Rush to Judgment film:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/325b1c_99b7a7f10e4d40afae13526229b7df9d~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_582,h_631,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_avif,quality_auto/325b1c_99b7a7f10e4d40afae13526229b7df9d~mv2.png)
Excerpt from the full Lane interview of Brehm.
Here is what Charles Brehm told CBS News in 1967: (page 284 or Stephen White's book, Should We Now Believe the Warren Report?)
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And here is what Charles Brehm told Larry Sneed in his book No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy: (pp. 65-66)
People have mentioned seeing puffs of smoke at the time of the assassination. I saw none whatsoever. The smoke that I created through years of cigar smoking would probably account for a puff of smoke here and a puff of smoke there as I went through life. But I sure didn’t see any puffs of smoke anywhere; nothing other than the three shots from the same area, and that has been identified to me as that particular window as to where they came from. I would agree with it because of the sound factor. But if they told me today that I was all wrong, that they came from the fourth floor, or the seventh floor, I’d have to believe them. But there’s no question in my mind that there were three shots from one source, the Texas School Book Depository, and nothing else from any of the other buildings.
There were no shots from sewers, no shots from the grassy knoll. There were no people hiding around with silencers, which in itself is laughable, because why should this person have a silencer and that person not have a silencer? And if there were nine people, as somebody advocates, why eight people with silencers shooting and only one without one. No, I feel comfortable with myself. I was very uncomfortable until the Warren Report came out because I stood by myself on November 22nd, that night. I came up with the original thought of the single bullet. I said at that time that there were three bullets, and they all came from the same place.
Then all the controversy starts. You don’t know what you’re letting yourself in for in a deal like this. The controversy starts about this or that extra gunman coming from here, coming from there. All of these things go on and you start to doubt yourself. You say, “Hey, am I right on this thing or what?” People are going to show me movies and tapes and things like that of what I said and they’re going to cast doubts. But everything I said was what the Warren Commission said, so I felt that I was clean on it. I felt that they printed the truth of what happened. Conspiracy, before or after, I have no idea. All I know is about those few seconds where I was standing, and that I’m sure of.
I’ve had one experience with Mark Lane where he did the interview by asking the questions off camera. I saw his movie, “Rush To Judgment,” once, and this was less than a year ago. It seems to me that he might have taken poetic justice with some of the questions that he asked or fit my answers to his questions rather than the opposite way of me answering the questions. But that was an unpleasantness because he was the type of person who made you believe that you were helping him when all he was looking for was one piece of junk in that whole new car showroom so he could say, “Ha! Ha! Here’s what! The whole thing is wrong because of this!” And that’s what he was! He was looking for that junk in some shining place so that he could destroy everything that was worthwhile.
Charles Brehm is a good case study of Mark Lane's intellectual dishonesty.
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Lane asked him these questions and he answered
Thumb1: There was nothing dishonest about it
Mark Lane: Did you see the effect of the bullets upon the President?
Charles Brehm: When the second bullet hit, there was, the hair seemed to go flying.
It was very definite then that he was struck in the head with the second bullet. And
yes, sir, I very definitely saw effects of the second bullet.
Mark Lane: Did you see any particles of the President's skull fly when the bullet struck him in the head?
Charles Brehm: I saw a piece fly over, oh, in the area of the curb where I was standing.
Mark Lane: And in which direction did that fly?
Charles Brehm: It seemed to have have come left and back.
Mark Lane: In other words, the skull particle flew to the left and to the rear of the Presidential limousine.
Charles Brehm: Sir, whatever it was that I saw, did fall both in that direction and over into the curb there.
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Charles Brehm is a good case study of Mark Lane's intellectual dishonesty.
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None of this has the least bit of relevance.
For starters, Brehm seems not to have heard the first shot and can be seen in the Z-film still clapping his hands as JFK passed by him, slumping from having been hit by the second shot. Brehm is hardly alone. It appears that some people recognized the first bang as a gunshot and others did not. Connally instantly recognized it as the sound of a high powered rifle while JFK sitting behind him seemed oblivious to it. SS agent Bennett recognized the first sound as a gunshot while he was scanning the crowd to his right. He immediately turned his attention to JFK and saw the second shot strike him high on his upper right back. Meanwhile, SS agent Hill apparently did not recognize the first shot and is seen looking forward toward JFK after the second shot had struck JFK in the back. He heard the third shot as he was racing to the limo but only remembers hearing two shots total. It's a mystery as to why some recognized the first shot for what it was and others did not. Perhaps the accelerating motorcycles coming off the sharp turn on Elm St muffled the sound of that first shot. Perhaps some thought the first shot was a motorcycle backfire.
The direction a piece of skull flew is no indication of the direction of the shot. Only an autopsy can determine that. Entry and exit wounds have distinct characteristics and it is elementary for qualified medical examiners to determine which wounds were entrances. That's why EVERY qualified medical examiner who has seen the autopsy photos and x-rays has concurred with the original finding that JFK was hit by two shots from behind and there is no medical evidence of a shot from any other direction.
Case closed.
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Lane stated:
"[Brehm] told me in a filmed interview that a portion of the President's skull was driven back and sharply to the left, over the rear of the President's car... this offers impressive corroboration for those who say the shot came from the right front."
Thumb1: It's what Brehm said.
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For starters, Brehm seems not to have heard the first shot
0.25
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Unfortunately, Brehm started to enjoy the spotlight a little too much.
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I wonder what happened to his statement to the Sheriff's Dept on the 22nd. He was held for 2+ hours.
Or why wasn't he called by the WC? His FBI statement recites the tale quite well
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Brehm's wordages are worse than useless.
Lane should hav gotten a Nobel Prize for showing that shot echoes can be louder than shot sources.
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Brehm's wordages are worse than useless.
Lane should hav gotten a Nobel Prize for showing that shot echoes can be louder than shot sources.
People lose sight of WW2 ending roughly 18 yrs before 11/22/63. Brehm was a WW2 Vet. He was wounded during the D. Day Invasion. And then he was under fire once again on 11/22/63. Cut this man some slack.
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There's only one problem with the "back and to the left" argument. JFK did not go back and to the left when the bullet struck him in the back of the head. His head actually moved forward a few inches from frames 312-313. From there he went straight backward. He was already leaning hard to his left when the headshot struck. That gave the false impression that he had gone back and to the left. All one has to do is look forward a half second from frame 313.
At frame 322, JFK is still in the far right side of the limo's back seat. There was no leftward movement from his position at 312.
(https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg)
Another myth bites the dust.
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Well, he heard 3 shots and missed the early shot Connally heard so that's 4 total. The 3rd and 4th shots were so close he probably thought it was one.
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Another myth bites the dust.
JFK was actually lifted Up and driven Back into the backrest. The force was so great that he then bounced off of the backrest and tilted to his (L) against Jackie. Once she moved, he was like a tree falling. The 1 still frame above does Not tell the story. And, there are more detailed Zapruder film images too.
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Well, he heard 3 shots and missed the early shot Connally heard so that's 4 total. The 3rd and 4th shots were so close he probably thought it was one.
There was no fourth shot and zero forensic evidence of one. The only "evidence" of a shot from the GK is some people thought that's where it sounded like the shots came from. There was a clear consensus among the witnesses that there were three shots. With few exceptions, those who expressed an opinion said all the shots seemed to come from one direction. Either they all came from the GK or they all came from the direction of the TSBD. Obviously, one of those two groups has to be wrong unless one wants to make the ridiculous argument that the GK earwitnesses didn't hear the TSBD shots and the TSBD earwitnesses didn't hear the GK shots. Otherwise, it is clear that one of those two groups got it wrong. So how do we decide which group got it right. Very simple. Look at which group is corroborated by the other evidence. There is ample forensic evidence and an eyewitness to support shots from the TSBD. There is zero corroborating evidence for the witnesses who thought the shots came from the GK.
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People lose sight of WW2 ending roughly 18 yrs before 11/22/63. Brehm was a WW2 Vet. He was wounded during the D. Day Invasion. And then he was under fire once again on 11/22/63. Cut this man some slack.
For sure an honest man.
But i am surprized that someone so close to the action did not provide one little bit of worthwhile evidence, & hiz wordage would hav hurt any investigation.
And available good evidence contradicts almost everything he said.
Its another case of the problems we all hav with memory, short term & long term.
And more than that its a case of being there but not seeing (ie due to shock etc).
Look at Zapruder. We see Brehm from Z276 to Z299. And he iz clapping the whole time.
Its difficult to tell, but i think that Brehm iz closest to jfk at Z276 (further before Z276 & further after Z276).
One more thing. Brehm at no stage/time/place ever said that he heard any shots coming from the TSBD (if u look/hear closely what he actually said).
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I wonder what happened to the statement he made to the Sheriffs Dept on the 22nd
Thumb1: Charles Brehm is actually a good case study of Fred Litwin's intellectual dishonesty.
DALLAS TIMES HERALD: November 22, 1963.
The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. "The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped. Then on the second shot he seemed to fall back." Brehm seemed to think the shots came from in front of or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as if he would have after being shot from the rear. The book depository building stands in the rear of the President's location at the time of the shooting.
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You are missing my point. It is about Lane's intellectual dishonesty. He asked Brehm in the interview where the shots came from, and Brehm answered him. Lane
did not include the answer in his film. But he did infer from Brehm's other statements where the shots came from.
On the other hand, I don't believe the Dallas Times Herald, because Jay Skaggs took a few photographs of Brehm on November 22nd and in his oral history project, says that Brehm, at that time, was
saying the shots came from Houston and Elm.
fred
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You are missing my point. It is about Lane's intellectual dishonesty. He asked Brehm in the interview where the shots came from, and Brehm answered him. Lane
did not include the answer in his film. But he did infer from Brehm's other statements where the shots came from.
On the other hand, I don't believe the Dallas Times Herald, because Jay Skaggs took a few photographs of Brehm on November 22nd and in his oral history project, says that Brehm, at that time, was
saying the shots came from Houston and Elm.
fred
Actually, he never asked from what direction the shots came. He asked what direction the particles flew.
..and your opinion on hearsay from a reporter in an oral history project years later doesn't mean very much.
Mark Lane: Did you see any particles of the President's skull fly when the bullet struck him in the head?
Charles Brehm: I saw a piece fly over, oh, in the area of the curb where I was standing.
Mark Lane: And in which direction did that fly?
Charles Brehm: It seemed to have have come left and back.
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You are missing my point. It is about Lane's intellectual dishonesty. He asked Brehm in the interview where the shots came from, and Brehm answered him. Lane
did not include the answer in his film. But he did infer from Brehm's other statements where the shots came from.
On the other hand, I don't believe the Dallas Times Herald, because Jay Skaggs took a few photographs of Brehm on November 22nd and in his oral history project, says that Brehm, at that time, was
saying the shots came from Houston and Elm.
fred
My careful seeing/hearing/reading of Brehm's wordage tells me that at no time did Brehm ever say that he heard shots coming from the TSBD.
Brehm did say where he thort the shots came from. But that is not the same thing.
Brehm said that he heard the shots coming from a building which was not the TSBD.
And he made no subsequent statements re where he heard the shots coming from.
All of his subsequent statements were re where he thort the shots came from.
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I guess you didn't read my post. You should.
Lane DID ask Brehm where the shots came from and Brehm answered him. Lane cut that answer out from the film. We know
this because the uncut film interviews were retrieved from the De Antonio papers in Wisconsin.
fred
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I guess you didn't read my post. You should.
Lane DID ask Brehm where the shots came from and Brehm answered him. Lane cut that answer out from the film. We know
this because the uncut film interviews were retrieved from the De Antonio papers in Wisconsin.
fred
If he cut it out of the film then he made a proper edit.
You're the one that is being dishonest here.
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If he cut it out of the film then he made a proper edit.
You're the one that is being dishonest here.
Define "proper edit." How is removing a direct answer to a direct question, for no apparent reason, deemed "proper" ??
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If he cut it out of the film then he made a proper edit.
It was a proper edit for someone who was trying to misrepresent what a witness has said. Mark Lane was a deceitful SOB and it is not at all surprising that he would cut anything a witness said that didn't support the false narrative that Lane was trying to push.
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Define "proper edit." How is removing a direct answer to a direct question, for no apparent reason, deemed "proper" ??
How about we SEE the alleged "uncut film interviews", or transcripts of such before rendering judgement? The plural "interviews" merits caution.
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It was a proper edit for someone who was trying to misrepresent what a witness has said. Mark Lane was a deceitful SOB and it is not at all surprising that he would cut anything a witness said that didn't support the false narrative that Lane was trying to push.
BS:
He asked which direction the matter flew.
...and Brehm answered him
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No, not true. Go read my post. Lane asked him exactly where the shots came from, and he cut out the answer.
fred
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No, not true. Go read my post. Lane asked him exactly where the shots came from, and he cut out the answer.
fred
:D ...round and round u go.
I wonder what happened to the statement he gave to the Sheriff's Dept on the 22nd
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None of this has the least bit of relevance.
For starters, Brehm seems not to have heard the first shot and can be seen in the Z-film still clapping his hands as JFK passed by him, slumping from having been hit by the second shot. Brehm is hardly alone. It appears that some people recognized the first bang as a gunshot and others did not. Connally instantly recognized it as the sound of a high powered rifle while JFK sitting behind him seemed oblivious to it. SS agent Bennett recognized the first sound as a gunshot while he was scanning the crowd to his right. He immediately turned his attention to JFK and saw the second shot strike him high on his upper right back. Meanwhile, SS agent Hill apparently did not recognize the first shot and is seen looking forward toward JFK after the second shot had struck JFK in the back. He heard the third shot as he was racing to the limo but only remembers hearing two shots total. It's a mystery as to why some recognized the first shot for what it was and others did not. Perhaps the accelerating motorcycles coming off the sharp turn on Elm St muffled the sound of that first shot. Perhaps some thought the first shot was a motorcycle backfire.
The direction a piece of skull flew is no indication of the direction of the shot. Only an autopsy can determine that. Entry and exit wounds have distinct characteristics and it is elementary for qualified medical examiners to determine which wounds were entrances. That's why EVERY qualified medical examiner who has seen the autopsy photos and x-rays has concurred with the original finding that JFK was hit by two shots from behind and there is no medical evidence of a shot from any other direction.
Case closed.
Having heard Oswald's first, missing everything shot at "Z-124" (half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133), Glenn Bennett started leaning to his right to see if JFK was okay and George Hickey leaned over and started looking at the pavement.
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Having heard Oswald's first, missing everything shot at "Z-124" (half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133), Glenn Bennett started leaning to his right to see if JFK was okay and George Hickey leaned over and started looking at the pavement.
I don't know how you can say the first shot missed at theoretical Z-124. What evidence is there that places a shot at that time. Seems like pure speculation to me. I've seen the arguments for the first shot being fired prior to Z133 and I remain unimpressed by them. We have no definitive evidence for the time of that first shot but there are clues. JBC turning to look over his right shoulder beginning at Z164 seems like a good place to start. It fits with his testimony that he looked over his right shoulder upon hearing what he recognized as a rifle shot. What we don't know is how quickly he reacted. It's not like his reflexive arm flip which began at Z226. Reflexive responses are involuntary and almost immediate. I believe Dale Meyers posited a shot at Z160. That would require a fairly rapid reaction from Connally. Remember too that the sound of the bullet would take a couple frames to reach his ears after the shot was fired. The bullet would arrive before the sound. To me the best clue as to the time of the first shot is the jiggle of Zapruder's camera. The jiggle following the headshot occurred at Z318. It would have taken roughly 2.5 Z-frames for the bullet to cover the 88 yards from the rifle to JFK's head. That means a bullet impacting at Z313 would have been fired at Z310 or Z311. Since the distance from Oswald's rifle to Zapruder's ears would be a constant for all three shots, we should expect a similar lag between the shot being fired and Zapruder jiggling his camera. There is also a jiggle at Z227 which would indicated a shot fired Z220 or Z221. Most likely Z221. There is a definite jiggle at Z158. If that jiggle is in response to a gunshot from Oswald's rifle, that would indicate a shot fired at Z151 or Z152. Is that definitive proof of a shot at that timeframe. Of course not, but to me it is the best evidence for. when the first shot was fired. Until someone offers a more compelling argument. that is what I believe. Is it possible that the Z158 jiggle is not a reaction to a gunshot and the first shot was fired earlier, even before Zapruder resumed filming. Of course it is theoretically possible but a shot fired in the Z152-153 time frame fits with everything else we have available.
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The Zapruder camera "jiggle" being used to indicate a shot being fired is indicative of desperation. Zapruder had balance issues.
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No, not true. Go read my post. Lane asked him exactly where the shots came from, and he cut out the answer.
fred
Yes. Brehm said many times that he thort the shots came from X or Y.
But hav a closer look at his wordage. Only once did he ever say where he heard the shots coming from. And that was from a building that was not the TSBD.
In fact Brehm explains this himself.... he explains that he heard the shots coming from a building but that he formed the opinion that they came from the TSBD.
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Every jiggle is not proof of a gunshot but every gunshot will be followed by a jiggle. This was established back in the 1960s during the filming of hunting shows. Even thought the cameramen knew shots were going to be fired, they couldn't hold their camera steady immediately following the shots.
We have solid evidence of when the two shots were fired that struck JFK and we can see camera jiggles about 1/3 second after those shots were fired. I have not claimed that the Z158 jiggle is proof positive of a gunshot 1/3 second before, but given that it preceded Connally's visible reaction at Z164 when he began to turn to look over his right shoulder, it is a strong indication. It is possible the shot was fired earlier but that would have us believe Connally reacted very slowly to the first shot. So did Rosemary Willis. I find it far more likely that the shot was fired at or about Z152. It's the best fit for the reactions of Connally and Willis.
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Every jiggle is not proof of a gunshot but every gunshot will be followed by a jiggle.
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Zapruder didn't resume filming until Z-133 (after a 17-second pause), so he missed Oswald's first shot half-a-second earlier.
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Every jiggle is not proof of a gunshot but every gunshot will be followed by a jiggle. This was established back in the 1960s during the filming of hunting shows. Even thought the cameramen knew shots were going to be fired, they couldn't hold their camera steady immediately following the shots.
We have solid evidence of when the two shots were fired that struck JFK and we can see camera jiggles about 1/3 second after those shots were fired. I have not claimed that the Z158 jiggle is proof positive of a gunshot 1/3 second before, but given that it preceded Connally's visible reaction at Z164 when he began to turn to look over his right shoulder, it is a strong indication. It is possible the shot was fired earlier but that would have us believe Connally reacted very slowly to the first shot. So did Rosemary Willis. I find it far more likely that the shot was fired at or about Z152. It's the best fit for the reactions of Connally and Willis.
Yeah, those "hunting shows" are bona fide Proof. Admitted as "evidence" in courtrooms across the USA. Coupled with the alleged "Jiggle" from a man with admitted balance issues, you gotta "slam dunk" going here. Proffering this kinda stuff is indicative of just how weak of a case that you got going.
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Cronkite was full of xxxx. The WC never said the first shot was fired at Z210. They said the shot that hit JFK in the back was fired between Z210 and Z225. They were correct about that. They reached no conclusion as to whether that was the first or second of Oswald's shots. Given the advantage of decades to look at the Z-film and technologies not available to the WC at time, we can safely conclude that the first shot missed and it was the second shot that hit JFK in the back and went on to wound JBC.
It's amazing how many myths have arisen about the WC's conclusions regarding the timing of the shots, given the WC's clearly stated summary at the conclusion of the chapter that dealt with that issue. For many years there was a widely held belief that the WC concluded Oswald fired all three shots in 5.6 seconds or less. Perhaps Josiah Thompson's book Six Seconds in Dallas cemented that erroneous conclusion in people's minds. Nowhere was this myth more evident than in the scene from Oliver Stone's shitass movie in which Garrison and his assistant were in the sniper's nest with a Carcano rifle and his assistant started off with two lies. First he claimed the WC said the first shot missed. False. That is what happened but that was not a conclusion of the WC. Then he says the WC claimed the three shots were fired in under 6 seconds. That's false both regarding what the WC concluded and what actually happened. What made that especially deceitful is the two claims are mutually exclusive. The WC did allow for a first shot miss and they allowed for a 5.6 second time for all three shots but not both. The 5.6 second time frame is only compatible with a SECOND shot miss. Then to top it all off, the assistant tells Garrison, "I'm Oswald. Time me.". He then dry fires the rifle three times and Garrison tells him it was over 7 seconds. If you actually time that yourself with a stopwatch, it is under 6 seconds. And from that the assistant says that Oswald couldn't have done the shooting. All he did was prove that when one starts with invalid premises, one will likely reach invalid conclusions. What is truly remarkable is how many whoppers Oliver Stone was able to cram into one short scene.
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Oliver Stone's "JFK" is a movie. Why are you going ape sh*t over a movie? It's a very entertaining, star studded movie. And, it ultimately brought us the ARRB. Save your energy, save your profanity, pop some corn, and just enjoy the show.
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Oliver Stone's "JFK" is a movie. Why are you going ape sh*t over a movie? It's a very entertaining, star studded movie. And, it ultimately brought us the ARRB. Save your energy, save your profanity, pop some corn, and just enjoy the show.
The problems is so many people think it is a work of history. It's amazing how many people I've dealt with over the years who learned most of what they think they know about the assassination from that movie. People to this day think the single bullet theory is impossible because of that flawed courtroom demonstration by Cosnter. Another fine example of how starting with a flawed premise leads to flawed conclusions.
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None of this has the least bit of relevance.
For starters, Brehm seems not to have heard the first shot and can be seen in the Z-film still clapping his hands as JFK passed by him, slumping from having been hit by the second shot. Brehm is hardly alone. It appears that some people recognized the first bang as a gunshot and others did not. Connally instantly recognized it as the sound of a high powered rifle while JFK sitting behind him seemed oblivious to it. SS agent Bennett recognized the first sound as a gunshot while he was scanning the crowd to his right. He immediately turned his attention to JFK and saw the second shot strike him high on his upper right back. Meanwhile, SS agent Hill apparently did not recognize the first shot and is seen looking forward toward JFK after the second shot had struck JFK in the back. He heard the third shot as he was racing to the limo but only remembers hearing two shots total. It's a mystery as to why some recognized the first shot for what it was and others did not. Perhaps the accelerating motorcycles coming off the sharp turn on Elm St muffled the sound of that first shot. Perhaps some thought the first shot was a motorcycle backfire.
The direction a piece of skull flew is no indication of the direction of the shot. Only an autopsy can determine that. Entry and exit wounds have distinct characteristics and it is elementary for qualified medical examiners to determine which wounds were entrances. That's why EVERY qualified medical examiner who has seen the autopsy photos and x-rays has concurred with the original finding that JFK was hit by two shots from behind and there is no medical evidence of a shot from any other direction.
Case closed.
This is correct. Clearly from the Zapruder film, Brehm did not recognize either of the first two shots as shots. A very small group of people do seem to react to a shot around z153. Many to the shot at z222. And most to the shot at z312. A lot depends, I think, of what people were looking at when the shots were fired. Jean Hill was clearly not looking at JFK, but was turning her head to the rear to look at the follow up vehicles. I don't think she realized shots had been fired until after z312 and she found out due to the reactions of others. Never mind what she claimed.
Shouldn't a combat veteran like Brehm be among the first to recognize shots were being fired? It would depend on he was looking at, at Z222. If he was glancing down to make certain his young son did not dart into the street, probably not. The sound won't tell, necessarily because different weapons make different sounds and the motorcycles had a lot of backfires. We do not see Brehm until z276. My guess is that a z222, he was not looking at JFK. In any case, while it may seem surprising, Brehm did not recognize that shots had been fired until after z312.
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This is correct. Clearly from the Zapruder film, Brehm did not recognize either of the first two shots as shots. A very small group of people do seem to react to a shot around z153. Many to the shot at z222. And most to the shot at z312. A lot depends, I think, of what people were looking at when the shots were fired. Jean Hill was clearly not looking at JFK, but was turning her head to the rear to look at the follow up vehicles. I don't think she realized shots had been fired until after z312 and she found out due to the reactions of others. Never mind what she claimed.
Shouldn't a combat veteran like Brehm be among the first to recognize shots were being fired? It would depend on he was looking at, at Z222. If he was glancing down to make certain his young son did not dart into the street, probably not. The sound won't tell, necessarily because different weapons make different sounds and the motorcycles had a lot of backfires. We do not see Brehm until z276. My guess is that a z222, he was not looking at JFK. In any case, while it may seem surprising, Brehm did not recognize that shots had been fired until after z312.
Regarding the reactions of "a very small group of people around Z-153," do you think what we're seeing are startle reactions, or conscious reactions?
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
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Regarding the reactions of "a very small group of people around Z-153," do you think what we're seeing are startle reactions, or conscious reactions?
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
I'll answer that. Clearly the reactions of JBC and Rosemary Willis are not startle reactions but cognitive reactions. Connally's reaction began at Z164 when he began to turn to his right. That is more than a half second after he would have heard the shot if indeed it was fired in the early 150s. Rosemary Willis gradually came to a stop before turning toward the TSBD. That happened in the early 170s.
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John Connally heard the first shot. Therefore, he couldn't have been hit by that first shot.
Everything he said he did after hearing the first shot is captured on the Zapruder film. He had just turned his head from right to left, then he suddenly jerked his head back to his right, and there his head remained in that position until he appeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, the sudden two-time up and down motion of his shoulders, and the grimace on his face are the first signs of him being struck by the shot that he did not hear, and then he heard the third shot which stuck President Kennedy in the head.
This can all be heard in the 1964 CBS program "The Warren Report", which aired the day the Warren Report was released to the public. Governor Connally gives a detailed account of what happened as soon as the car turned onto Elm Street.
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John Connally heard the first shot. Therefore, he couldn't have been shot by that first shot.
Everything he said he did after hearing the first shot is captured on the Zapruder film. He had just turned his head from right to left, then he suddenly jerked his head back to his right, and there his head remained in that position until he appeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, the sudden two-time up and down motion of his shoulders, and the grimace on his face are the first signs of him being struck by the shot that he did not hear, and then he heard the third shot which stuck President Kennedy in the head.
This can all be heard in the 1964 CBS program "The Warren Report", which aired the day the Warren Report was released to the public. Governor Connally gives a detailed account of what happened as soon as the car turned onto Elm Street.
JBC was remarkably consistent over the years in his retelling of the assassination. There is only one problem. He seems to have tailored that story to the Z-film as opposed to the Z-film corroborating his story. In his first telling of the story to Martin Agronsky from his hospital bed, he made two significant errors. The first is that he said he turned to his left upon hearing the first shot. The Z-film clearly shows his initial turn was to the right. The second error was a bit more significant. He said that when he looked over his shoulder, he saw the President had slumped. The Z-film shows us on his first look over his right shoulder, he did not turn enough to where he could have seen JFK. He didn't turn enough to see JFK until after they had both been hit by the second shot. He did about a 180 degree turn in his seat in reaction to his devastating wound so that he was looking directly at JFK. This is significant because if his first recollection was accurate, it would have negated the SBT. If JBC had seen JFK slumped after hearing the first shot but before JBC had been hit by the second, obviously that would mean they were hit be separate shots.
Fortunately, we do have the Z-film. Without it, I doubt anyone would have figured out the SBT. Not the WC anyway. But we do have the Z-film and it shows us what JBC got right and what he got wrong in his first telling. To his credit, he realized his errors, probably after seeing the Z-film, and made the corrections before testifying to the WC. I wonder if his first false recollection was one of the reasons he never accepted the SBT. He knew he had been hit by the second shot so if JFK had been hit by the first, the SBT could not be true. In reality, JFK had not been hit by the first shot and we don't see either man react to being hit until Z226 when they both suddenly flung their arms upward.
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John Connally heard the first shot. Therefore, he couldn't have been hit by that first shot.
Everything he said he did after hearing the first shot is captured on the Zapruder film. He had just turned his head from right to left, then he suddenly jerked his head back to his right, and there his head remained in that position until he appeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, the sudden two-time up and down motion of his shoulders, and the grimace on his face are the first signs of him being struck by the shot that he did not hear, and then he heard the third shot which stuck President Kennedy in the head.
This can all be heard in the 1964 CBS program "The Warren Report", which aired the day the Warren Report was released to the public. Governor Connally gives a detailed account of what happened as soon as the car turned onto Elm Street.
All of the eyewitnesses stated JFK reacted to the first shot. Mary Woodward places the first shot took place after Z207 when JFK faced forward again.
Witnesses in and near the car----DPD Hargis and sidewalk spectator Bill Newman both reference JBC as having been wounded by the first shot. Both Jackie and Nelly stated JBC was hit by the first shot. SA Kellerman referenced the second shot as the head shot. SA Clint Hill is a two shot witness as is SA Greer.
Here is a list of the two shot witnesses and witnesses who stated the second shot was the head shot.
Two shot witnesses
Jackie, Nelly, Bill Newman, Gayle Newman, John Chism, Faye Chism, Jean Newman, Charles Brehm, Clint Hill, DPD Chaney, DPD Hargis, Sheriff Decker, Garland Slack, James Altgens, Malcolm Summers, Charles Roberts, BR Williams, Brennan, SA Greer, A Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman, Charles Hester, Beatrice Hester, SA Glenn Bennet, Ann Donaldson, Peggy Burney, Dolores Kounas, Dave Powers, Kenneth O’Donnell, SA Landis, Ernest Brandt, James Powell, James Darnell, Hugh Betzner, Seth Kantor, Lupe Whitaker, F Lee Mudd, Ernest Brandt, Milton Wright, James Perry, JW foster, Clemon Johnson, Jack Franzen, Mrs Jack Franzen, Jeff Franzen, Ann Ruth Moore, Mary Hall, Toni Glover
Second shot was the headshot
James Jarmin, Harold Norman, SA Kellerman, Marilyn Willis, SA Kinney, SA Hickey, Mary Woodward, John Templin, Gov Connally, Mary Moorman, SA Emory Roberts, Hugh Aynesworth, Ruby Henderson, DPD Douglas Jackson, Jerry Kivett, Cliff Carter, Thomas Johns, June Dishong, Aurelia Alonzo, Margaret Brown, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, DPD JW Foster
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The information from the shells left on the floor in the Snipers Nest and the cartridge left in the rifle indicated that LHO only fired twice.
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All of the eyewitnesses stated JFK reacted to the first shot.
When you start with a false premise, it's not surprising you reached a false conclusion.
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Oswald's first shot ricochet (at pseudo Z110 say) hurt jfk koz jfk said my god i am hit (or some such).
Oswald's 2nd shot (at Z218) damaged jfk's throat etc, hence jfk could not speak.
Hickey's last shot (of hiz say 4 or 5 or 6 auto shots) at Z312 blew the top off jfk's head.
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Connally's reaction began at Z164 when he began to turn to his right.
According to Roselle and Scearce, "John Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-151, followed by quickly looking
back right."
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According to Roselle and Scearce, "John Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-151, followed by quickly looking
back right."
The problem with that interpretation is that in his first interview, JBC said he looked over his left shoulder and saw the President had slumped as if it was all part of the same motion. Clearly, JBC did not turn far enough to the left to see that nor even after he turned to his right.
Much of what he described afterward is fairly accurate with one minor detail. In his later tellings of the story, he said he started to turn back toward the front, which is true, and he was facing almost directly forward when he felt the shot hit him in the back. He did in fact reach a forward facing position but not until the bullet had already struck him. He then turned back to his right and doubled over in reaction to being hit. Here again, I believe his later recollections were influenced by what he had seen in the Z-film. He saw himself doubled over in the late Z230s and saw he had reached a forward facing position at about Z230 and figured that was about when he was hit. He was actually hit less than a half second earlier which was followed almost immediately by his involuntary, reflexive arm flip at Z226. He didn't even remember being hit in the wrist but that event along with the jacket bulge two frames earlier give us the best indication of when the single bullet struck. Z226 is also the frame JFK made a similar involuntary, reflexive response to being hit by suddenly raising both arms.
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The problem with that interpretation is that in his first interview, JBC said he looked over his left shoulder and saw the President had slumped as if it was all part of the same motion. Clearly, JBC did not turn far enough to the left to see that nor even after he turned to his right.
Much of what he described afterward is fairly accurate with one minor detail. In his later tellings of the story, he said he started to turn back toward the front, which is true, and he was facing almost directly forward when he felt the shot hit him in the back. He did in fact reach a forward facing position but not until the bullet had already struck him. He then turned back to his right and doubled over in reaction to being hit. Here again, I believe his later recollections were influenced by what he had seen in the Z-film. He saw himself doubled over in the late Z230s and saw he had reached a forward facing position at about Z230 and figured that was about when he was hit. He was actually hit less than a half second earlier which was followed almost immediately by his involuntary, reflexive arm flip at Z226. He didn't even remember being hit in the wrist but that event along with the jacket bulge two frames earlier give us the best indication of when the single bullet struck. Z226 is also the frame JFK made a similar involuntary, reflexive response to being hit by suddenly raising both arms.
About the only thing John "Mr. Confidant Politician" Connally got right was that there were three shots, they were fired from behind him by a high-powered rifle, and that when he turned to his right to locate the source of the first shot and to see if JFK was okay, he couldn't see him out of the corner of his eye (because JFK had turned his head far to his right and had raised his hand in front of it to wave to someone, and this combination prevented Connally from "seeing" him).
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About the only thing John "Mr. Confidant Politician" Connally got right was that there were three shots, they were fired from behind him by a high-powered rifle, and that when he turned to his right to locate the source of the first shot and to see if JFK was okay, he couldn't "see" him out of the corner of his eye (because JFK had turned his head far to his right and had raised his hand in front of it to wave to someone, and this combination prevented Connally from "seeing" him).
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I wish Duncan would reinstate the "Delete" button, because I oftentimes click "Quote" by mistake instead of "Modify" (as I did just now), and I end up with semi-duplicate posts.
LOL!
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The problem with that interpretation is that in his first interview, JBC said he looked over his left shoulder and saw the President had slumped as if it was all part of the same motion. Clearly, JBC did not turn far enough to the left to see that nor even after he turned to his right.
Much of what he described afterward is fairly accurate with one minor detail. In his later tellings of the story, he said he started to turn back toward the front, which is true, and he was facing almost directly forward when he felt the shot hit him in the back. He did in fact reach a forward facing position but not until the bullet had already struck him. He then turned back to his right and doubled over in reaction to being hit. Here again, I believe his later recollections were influenced by what he had seen in the Z-film. He saw himself doubled over in the late Z230s and saw he had reached a forward facing position at about Z230 and figured that was about when he was hit. He was actually hit less than a half second earlier which was followed almost immediately by his involuntary, reflexive arm flip at Z226. He didn't even remember being hit in the wrist but that event along with the jacket bulge two frames earlier give us the best indication of when the single bullet struck. Z226 is also the frame JFK made a similar involuntary, reflexive response to being hit by suddenly raising both arms.
I recall that Connally early on mentioned that the first shot was just after they straightened in Elm.
And that the first shot did not hit him.
And he contradicted both statements for ever after.
I recall that zapruder duznt show bulge, it merely shows the lapel flip.
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I recall that Connally early on mentioned that the first shot was just after they straightened in Elm.
And that the first shot did not hit him.
And he contradicted both statements for ever after.
I recall that Zapruder doesn't show the bulge, it merely shows the lapel flip.
1) Connally eventually admitted that the first shot may have missed everything and that he and JFK may have been hit by the second shot.
JFKA conspiracy theorist John Simkin, himself, posted the following at the so-called JFK Assassination Debate -- Education Forum:
On 26th June 1967, John and Nellie Connally gave an interview to Walter Cronkite and Eddie Barker on CBS Television:
Walter Cronkite: The most persuasive critic of the single-bullet theory is the man who might be expected to know best, the victim himself, Texas Governor John Connally. Although he accepts the Warren Report's conclusion that Oswald did all the shooting, he has never believed that the first bullet could have hit both the President and himself.
John Connally: The only way that I could ever reconcile my memory of what happened and what occurred, with respect to the one bullet theory, is that it had to be the second bullet that might have hit us both.
Eddie Barker: Do you believe, Governor Connally, that the first bullet could have missed, the second one hit both of you, and the third one hit President Kennedy?
John Connally: That's possible. That's possible.
2) The Zapruder films shows both the jacket bulge and the lapel flip.
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1) Connally eventually admitted that the first shot may have missed everything and that he and JFK may have been hit by the second shot.
JFKA conspiracy theorist John Simkin, himself, posted the following at his so-called JFK Assassination Debate -- Education Forum:
On 26th June 1967, John and Nellie Connally gave an interview to Walter Cronkite and Eddie Barker on CBS Television:
Walter Cronkite: The most persuasive critic of the single-bullet theory is the man who might be expected to know best, the victim himself, Texas Governor John Connally. Although he accepts the Warren Report's conclusion that Oswald did all the shooting, he has never believed that the first bullet could have hit both the President and himself.
John Connally: The only way that I could ever reconcile my memory of what happened and what occurred, with respect to the one bullet theory, is that it had to be the second bullet that might have hit us both.
Eddie Barker: Do you believe, Governor Connally, that the first bullet could have missed, the second one hit both of you, and the third one hit President Kennedy?
John Connally: That's possible. That's possible.
2) The Zapruder films shows both the jacket bulge and the lapel flip.
[/size]
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Getting back to Brehm, he said shot one hit JFK in neck, shot two hit him in head, and shot three was fired after the head shot. So that leaves the shot Connally heard before Z-224.
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Getting back to Brehm, he said shot one hit JFK in neck, shot two hit him in head, and shot three was fired after the head shot. So that leaves the shot Connally heard before Z-224.
He was mistaken.
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1) Connally eventually admitted that the first shot may have missed everything and that he and JFK may have been hit by the second shot.
JFKA conspiracy theorist John Simkin, himself, posted the following at the so-called JFK Assassination Debate -- Education Forum:
On 26th June 1967, John and Nellie Connally gave an interview to Walter Cronkite and Eddie Barker on CBS Television:
Walter Cronkite: The most persuasive critic of the single-bullet theory is the man who might be expected to know best, the victim himself, Texas Governor John Connally. Although he accepts the Warren Report's conclusion that Oswald did all the shooting, he has never believed that the first bullet could have hit both the President and himself.
John Connally: The only way that I could ever reconcile my memory of what happened and what occurred, with respect to the one bullet theory, is that it had to be the second bullet that might have hit us both.
Eddie Barker: Do you believe, Governor Connally, that the first bullet could have missed, the second one hit both of you, and the third one hit President Kennedy?
John Connally: That's possible. That's possible.
2) The Zapruder films shows both the jacket bulge and the lapel flip.
Thanx for that.
Re the bulge.... i think that there iz a hint of a possible bulge at Z222. Its hard to say, koz of the blackish blurry featureless jacket.
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Thanx for that.
Re the bulge.... i think that there iz a hint of a possible bulge at Z222. Its hard to say, koz of the blackish blurry featureless jacket.
I've never taken the position that the single bullet struck during Z224, only that it is possible. It's also possible it could have struck during the gap between Z223 and Z224 or even during Z223. You have raised the possibility of a Z222 strike which I cannot dismiss. What we don't know is how much of a time lag, if any, there would be between the bullet passing through the front of JBC's jacket and the jacket bulging out. The reason I say that is because I've seen super slow motion footage of a bullet passing through wood. The bullet exits first and the splinters follow behind it. We are splitting hairs here because it is a matter of small fractions of a second and the Z-film simply doesn't have enough frames per second to precisely measure these events. The difference between a Z222 strike and a Z224 strike is only 1/9 of a second.
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I've never taken the position that the single bullet struck during Z224, only that it is possible. It's also possible it could have struck during the gap between Z223 and Z224 or even during Z223. You have raised the possibility of a Z222 strike which I cannot dismiss. What we don't know is how much of a time lag, if any, there would be between the bullet passing through the front of JBC's jacket and the jacket bulging out. The reason I say that is because I've seen super slow motion footage of a bullet passing through wood. The bullet exits first and the splinters follow behind it. We are splitting hairs here because it is a matter of small fractions of a second and the Z-film simply doesn't have enough frames per second to precisely measure these events. The difference between a Z222 strike and a Z224 strike is only 1/9 of a second.
I answered all of that a long time ago.
The timings from Lattimer's tests for lapel flip indicates a shot at z219.
But i hav pointed out that the design of Lattimer's test jacket (hiz jacket had a long lapel) & the pozzy of Lattimer's shot (he shot higher than in 1963)(& hiz slug hit hiz 1994 lapel & took a big chunk out of it) indicates that the shot woz at Z218, which iz what i hav sayd all along.
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I answered all of that a long time ago.
The timings from Lattimer's tests for lapel flip indicates a shot at z219.
But i hav pointed out that the design of Lattimer's test jacket (hiz jacket had a long lapel) & the pozzy of Lattimer's shot (he shot higher than in 1963)(& hiz slug hit hiz 1994 lapel & took a big chunk out of it) indicates that the shot woz at Z218, which iz what i hav sayd all along.
I find it interesting that Lattimer tested that. I've long hypothesized that there could be a brief time lag between the single bullet passing through JFK and JBC and JBC's jacket bulging out and wished that somebody would test that hypothesis. Now you are saying that had been done. I am surprised at how much lag time you and Lattimer believe there was, but I don't dispute it.
I don't think we can assign precision to these tests because of the variables. Did Lattimer fire a shot directly through the jacket? If so, it would be pristine and meet much less resistance by the jacket as it passed through the material. The single bullet was not pristine as it exited JFK's throat. It began yawing immediately and based on the shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back, the axis of the bullet would have been almost perpendicular to the flight. It likely would have had a similar orientation when passing through the front of JBC's jacket. A pristine bullet, i.e. one that is not yawing, is going to meet little resistance when passing through a soft object. I have shot empty aluminum cans with my .44 Magnum and they don't even budge. My layman's opinion is that the more yaw, the more resistance a bullet will be met with. The more resistance, the quicker we would expect to see the jacket bulge. Again, this is my hypothesis, but I lack the means to test it out.
To me, the best indication of the time each shot was fired is the jiggle we see in Zapruder's film following each shot. Because the distance from Oswald's rifle to Zapruder's ears was a constant for all three shots, we should expect a similar time lag between shot and jiggle for all three shots. Let's start with the third shot since that is the easiest to pinpoint. A bullet striking JFK's head at Z313 would have taken about 2 frames to travel the 88 yards from Oswald to JFK. That would mean the shot was fired at Z311, followed by a severely blurred frame at Z318. That gives us a baseline of 7 frames between the shot being fired and Zapruder's involuntary response. If we apply that to the second shot, we see a blurring at Z227. Working back 7 frames would indicate a shot fired at Z220, close to what you and Lattimer have hypothesized. If we apply that to when I think the first shot was fired, we see a bad blurring at Z158 which would equate to a shot at Z151.
We need to recognize the limitations of our time piece which is Zapruder's camera. When I say there would be a 7 frame lag between the firing of the shot and Zapruder's reaction, that is an approximation. Even if that figure is a constant for all three shots, there's no reason to assume that number is going to be an integer. In fact, most likely it is not. Maybe it is 6.74 frames or maybe it is 7.31 frames or any number near 7. We would need to conduct a test using a camera capable of thousands of frames per second to determine a more precise lag time between shot and reaction. The best we can do with what we have is calculate an approximation, accurate to with 1/18 of a second.
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I find it interesting that Lattimer tested that. I've long hypothesized that there could be a brief time lag between the single bullet passing through JFK and JBC and JBC's jacket bulging out and wished that somebody would test that hypothesis. Now you are saying that had been done. I am surprised at how much lag time you and Lattimer believe there was, but I don't dispute it.
I don't think we can assign precision to these tests because of the variables. Did Lattimer fire a shot directly through the jacket? If so, it would be pristine and meet much less resistance by the jacket as it passed through the material. The single bullet was not pristine as it exited JFK's throat. It began yawing immediately and based on the shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back, the axis of the bullet would have been almost perpendicular to the flight. It likely would have had a similar orientation when passing through the front of JBC's jacket. A pristine bullet, i.e. one that is not yawing, is going to meet little resistance when passing through a soft object. I have shot empty aluminum cans with my .44 Magnum and they don't even budge. My layman's opinion is that the more yaw, the more resistance a bullet will be met with. The more resistance, the quicker we would expect to see the jacket bulge. Again, this is my hypothesis, but I lack the means to test it out.
To me, the best indication of the time each shot was fired is the jiggle we see in Zapruder's film following each shot. Because the distance from Oswald's rifle to Zapruder's ears was a constant for all three shots, we should expect a similar time lag between shot and jiggle for all three shots. Let's start with the third shot since that is the easiest to pinpoint. A bullet striking JFK's head at Z313 would have taken about 2 frames to travel the 88 yards from Oswald to JFK. That would mean the shot was fired at Z311, followed by a severely blurred frame at Z318. That gives us a baseline of 7 frames between the shot being fired and Zapruder's involuntary response. If we apply that to the second shot, we see a blurring at Z227. Working back 7 frames would indicate a shot fired at Z220, close to what you and Lattimer have hypothesized. If we apply that to when I think the first shot was fired, we see a bad blurring at Z158 which would equate to a shot at Z151.
We need to recognize the limitations of our time piece which is Zapruder's camera. When I say there would be a 7 frame lag between the firing of the shot and Zapruder's reaction, that is an approximation. Even if that figure is a constant for all three shots, there's no reason to assume that number is going to be an integer. In fact, most likely it is not. Maybe it is 6.74 frames or maybe it is 7.31 frames or any number near 7. We would need to conduct a test using a camera capable of thousands of frames per second to determine a more precise lag time between shot and reaction. The best we can do with what we have is calculate an approximation, accurate to with 1/18 of a second.
Yes re Lattimer's tests. All of that iz in my thread re the lapel flip.
And, there iz no bulge & no flip unless the slug yaws before it hits Connally.
Which confirms the SBT.
Anyone (eg wecht) that duznt see that the SBT iz true in less than one day must hav a mental disorder (or 2 ovem)(or more).
And i did my own analysis of zapruder re jiggle, in the same thread i think.
My jiggle measurements contradicted others'.
I looked at jiggle in all of the zapruder footage. I karnt remember the rezults. But there woz no useful jiggle at about Z312.
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Yes re Lattimer's tests. All of that iz in my thread re the lapel flip.
And, there iz no bulge & no flip unless the slug yaws before it hits Connally.
Which confirms the SBT.
Anyone (eg wecht) that duznt see that the SBT iz true in less than one day must hav a mental disorder (or 2 ovem)(or more).
And i did my own analysis of zapruder re jiggle, in the same thread i think.
My jiggle measurements contradicted others'.
I looked at jiggle in all of the zapruder footage. I karnt remember the rezults. But there woz no useful jiggle at about Z312.
Of course there would be no jiggle at Z312. In each case the jiggle would occur AFTER the bullet struck. The muzzle velocity of the Carcano was roughly twice the speed of sound so the bullet would hit the target before the sound reached Zapruder's ears. The headshot would have been fired at or about Z311. The sound of the head shot would have reached Zapruder's ears at or about Z315. The jiggle occurred at Z318. That would mean Zapruder's startle reaction occurred about 3 frames after the sound of the shot reached him. Seems about right to me.
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Of course there would be no jiggle at Z312. In each case the jiggle would occur AFTER the bullet struck. The muzzle velocity of the Carcano was roughly twice the speed of sound so the bullet would hit the target before the sound reached Zapruder's ears. The headshot would have been fired at or about Z311. The sound of the head shot would have reached Zapruder's ears at or about Z315. The jiggle occurred at Z318. That would mean Zapruder's startle reaction occurred about 3 frames after the sound of the shot reached him. Seems about right to me.
Yes.
In my threads i calculated all shots sounds of shots landings of shots etc etc for different points in Dealey.
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He was mistaken.
Send me the link where he said that.
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[...]
You posted:
"Charles Brehm said shot one hit JFK in neck, shot two hit him in head, and shot three was fired after the head shot. So that leaves the shot Connally heard before Z-224."
My previous reply:
Brehm was mistaken.
My reply to your rude demand that I "provide the link":
Connally heard Oswald's missing-everything shot that was fired half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
JFK and Connally were both hit by the shot that was fired around Z-222, and JFK was hit in the back of the head at Z-313, causing it to go forward and downward about two inches between Z-312 and Z-313.
D'oh