JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on January 26, 2026, 04:46:11 PM
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On a recent episode of The Lone Gunman podcast, Rob Clark reads out a Jan 1978 HSCA interview of Orest Pena. Its not his testimony, but an interview. Clark spends about 20 minutes reading the document here:
JFK INVESTIGATION - Ep. 373 - The Notorious F.B.I.
LINK (1 hour 22 mins to 1 hour 45 mins):
A particularly interesting part of the document, which Clark reads out at 1 hour 31 minutes, has Orest Pena stating:
“…Ferrie and Clay Shaw both came to my bar many times. They definitely knew each other because they came together a few times. Throughout the interview, Mr. Pena alluded to or inferred many pieces of information that he is in possession of. In effect he wanted some good faith on the part of the committee before he would talk about things. For instance, on the subject of Ferrie and Shaw he states that he knows the identity of a woman who came to the bar with Ferrie and she will be willing to talk to us. However he refused to identify her at this time.”
Orest Pena is generally viewed as a credible witness and so for Pena to say this would appear to be the best evidence that Ferrie and Shaw knew each other very well. Does anyone have a link to the Jan 1978 interview which Rob Clark reads out in the podcast and a link to the 90 page long testimony he references?
The only HSCA testimony of Pena I can find is his June 23rd 1978 testimony (RIF: 180-10075-10169) and that is only 36 pages long (not 90 pages) and can be viewed here:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32246611.pdf
There is also a July 31st 1978 summary of that June 23rd testimony (RIF: 180-10075-10166). The July 31st 1978 summary can be viewed here:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32246608.pdf
The only reference to Clay Saw in his June 23rd 1978 testimony is as follows and only mentions Clay Shaw at the bar but does not specifically mention Ferrie being in Shaws company:
(https://i.ibb.co/b5GW6zPK/Shaw.jpg)
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[...]
Wowie zowie!
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What's the evidence that Pena was "generally viewed as a credible witness"? Credible by who? On what basis?
Here is Pena's WC testimony. He says he saw Oswald once with a person who looked Cuban. Neither Shaw or Ferrie, to me, looked Cuban.
Mr. PENA - Well, they asked me in connection with the Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge ?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went .back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend."
And:
Mr. LIEBELER - Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?
Mr. PENA - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?
Mr. PENA - The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.
Mr. LIEBELER - You thought this man might be a Cuban?
Mr. PENA - To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.
So which account should we believe?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/pena_o.htm
And here is Rodriguez's testimony. He mentions seeing Oswald once and that Oswald got drunk and sick and had to be helped out of the bar.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/rodrigue.htm
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What's the evidence that Pena was "generally viewed as a credible witness"? Credible by who? On what basis?
Here is Pena's WC testimony. He says he saw Oswald once with a person who looked Cuban. Neither Shaw or Ferrie, to me, looked Cuban.
Mr. PENA - Well, they asked me in connection with the Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge ?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went .back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend."
And:
Mr. LIEBELER - Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?
Mr. PENA - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?
Mr. PENA - The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.
Mr. LIEBELER - You thought this man might be a Cuban?
Mr. PENA - To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.
So which account should we believe?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/pena_o.htm
Clay Shaw was 6' 4". If Pena had seen him, I think he would have mentioned that fact.
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What's the evidence that Pena was "generally viewed as a credible witness"? Credible by who? On what basis?
Here is Pena's WC testimony. He says he saw Oswald once with a person who looked Cuban. Neither Shaw or Ferrie, to me, looked Cuban.
Mr. PENA - Well, they asked me in connection with the Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge ?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went .back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend."
And:
Mr. LIEBELER - Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?
Mr. PENA - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?
Mr. PENA - The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.
Mr. LIEBELER - You thought this man might be a Cuban?
Mr. PENA - To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.
So which account should we believe?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/pena_o.htm
And here is Rodriguez's testimony. He mentions seeing Oswald once and that Oswald got drunk and sick and had to be helped out of the bar.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/rodrigue.htm
In the 1978 interview cited in the OP, Pena does not say he saw Oswald with Ferrie or Shaw. There is nothing about Oswald. Pena says he saw Shaw and Ferrie together.
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Clay Shaw was 6' 4". If Pena had seen him, I think he would have mentioned that fact.
Pena says he saw Shaw and Ferrie together. Not that he saw either one with Oswald.
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Well, let's see, Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw all frequented Pena's bar. Pena also saw Oswald at "Pedro's Restaurant" 10-12 times. Ferrie knew Shaw very well, he knew Bringuier very well, and he knew Sergio Arcacha Smith very well. Pena knew Oswald was an FBI informant because they both reported to Warren DeBrueys. He saw Oswald in the company of DeBrueys as well as in the company of Customs and INS officials in his bar. And that's just for starters.
John Armstrong's file on Pena, from which I borrowed some of the above: https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses/705794.
If you occupy the Garrison Wing of Conspiracy World, I suppose this seems credible. To me, not so much. Or rather, not at all.
I said on another thread that the "CT Oswald" apparently had 72 hours a day to in order to do his CT stuff that those closest to him knew nothing about, because we have a pretty idea of what he was doing in the 24 hours available to rest of us. Ditto with Clay Shaw. Having now digested Carpenter's almost absurdly detailed biography of Shaw, I find the notion of him and Ferrie entering the Habana Bar together completely comical. Due to their gay proclivities, Ferrie may have occasionally been in unknowing proximity to Shaw, but there is no way Shaw was bar-hopping with him.
God knows what Pena's game was, but he's one of those familiar (to me, anyway) characters who is just "too good to be true." They pop up like moles (see what I did there? :D) in all area of weirdness, from Roswell to the JFKA. They never have the sense to tone down their bombshells to a level of plausibility.
Anyway, read Carpenter's book and you will both (1) know more about Shaw than you probably want to know, and (2) be pretty damn certain he had no time or inclination for "JFKA stuff." He's right up there with Ruth Paine on the Mount Rushmore of CT-maligned decent folks.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71z8JDinojL._SL1024_.jpg)
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Well, let's see, Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw all frequented Pena's bar. Pena also saw Oswald at "Pedro's Restaurant" 10-12 times. Ferrie knew Shaw very well, he knew Bringuier very well, and he knew Sergio Arcacha Smith very well. Pena knew Oswald was an FBI informant because they both reported to Warren DeBrueys. He saw Oswald in the company of DeBrueys as well as in the company of Customs and INS officials in his bar. And that's just for starters.
John Armstrong's file on Pena, from which I borrowed some of the above: https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses/705794.
If you occupy the Garrison Wing of Conspiracy World, I suppose this seems credible. To me, not so much. Or rather, not at all.
I said on another thread that the "CT Oswald" apparently had 72 hours a day to in order to do his CT stuff that those closest to him knew nothing about, because we have a pretty idea of what he was doing in the 24 hours available to rest of us. Ditto with Clay Shaw. Having now digested Carpenter's almost absurdly detailed biography of Shaw, I find the notion of him and Ferrie entering the Habana Bar together completely comical. Due to their gay proclivities, Ferrie may have occasionally been in unknowing proximity to Shaw, but there is no way Shaw was bar-hopping with him.
God knows what Pena's game was, but he's one of those familiar (to me, anyway) characters who is just "too good to be true." They pop up like moles (see what I did there? :D) in all area of weirdness, from Roswell to the JFKA. They never have the sense to tone down their bombshells to a level of plausibility.
Anyway, read Carpenter's book and you will both (1) know more about Shaw than you probably want to know, and (2) be pretty damn certain he had no time or inclination for "JFKA stuff." He's right up there with Ruth Paine on the Mount Rushmore of CT-maligned decent folks.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71z8JDinojL._SL1024_.jpg)
Pena never suggests Shaw had anything to do with the JFK assassination. He simply states Shaw and Ferrie used come into his bar together.
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Well, let's see, Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw all frequented Pena's bar. Pena also saw Oswald at "Pedro's Restaurant" 10-12 times. Ferrie knew Shaw very well, he knew Bringuier very well, and he knew Sergio Arcacha Smith very well. Pena knew Oswald was an FBI informant because they both reported to Warren DeBrueys. He saw Oswald in the company of DeBrueys as well as in the company of Customs and INS officials in his bar. And that's just for starters.
John Armstrong's file on Pena, from which I borrowed some of the above: https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses/705794.
If you occupy the Garrison Wing of Conspiracy World, I suppose this seems credible. To me, not so much. Or rather, not at all.
I said on another thread that the "CT Oswald" apparently had 72 hours a day to in order to do his CT stuff that those closest to him knew nothing about, because we have a pretty idea of what he was doing in the 24 hours available to rest of us. Ditto with Clay Shaw. Having now digested Carpenter's almost absurdly detailed biography of Shaw, I find the notion of him and Ferrie entering the Habana Bar together completely comical. Due to their gay proclivities, Ferrie may have occasionally been in unknowing proximity to Shaw, but there is no way Shaw was bar-hopping with him.
God knows what Pena's game was, but he's one of those familiar (to me, anyway) characters who is just "too good to be true." They pop up like moles (see what I did there? :D) in all area of weirdness, from Roswell to the JFKA. They never have the sense to tone down their bombshells to a level of plausibility.
Anyway, read Carpenter's book and you will both (1) know more about Shaw than you probably want to know, and (2) be pretty damn certain he had no time or inclination for "JFKA stuff." He's right up there with Ruth Paine on the Mount Rushmore of CT-maligned decent folks.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71z8JDinojL._SL1024_.jpg)
I think it's quiet plausible the two could have known each other. They were both well known individuals. Shaw being the director of the trade mart and Ferrie being an airline pilot, head of a cadet group and was generally viewed as a well read interesting guy who had parties at his house. Shaw and Ferrie were two well known individuals in the city, and both members of the gay community. Shaw would probably find that Ferrie was one of the few people who could relate to him on an intellectual level.
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I think it's quiet plausible the two could have known each other. They were both well known individuals. Shaw being the director of the trade mart and Ferrie being an airline pilot, head of a cadet group and was generally viewed as a well read interesting guy who had parties at his house. Shaw and Ferrie were two well known individuals in the city, and both members of the gay community. Shaw would probably find that Ferrie was one of the few people who could relate to him on an intellectual level.
Every teller of tall tales has to have some degree of superficial plausibility to his tale or it goes nowhere. I won't bore you with the litany of really plausible-sounding Roswll witnesses whose lies and exagerrations (together, usually, with some kernel of truth) were finally exposed after extensive research, sometimes spanning many years, by diligent investigators like Kevin Randle (who, somewhat like the interpid Factoid Buster here, describes himself as "chaser of footnotes" because that's often how you finally expose the lies). After they are exposed, the True Believers whose theories hinge on their tales still insist, "No, he was the real deal!"
Ferrie was an interesting and bizarre character. He and Shaw shared gay proclivities. They were both in New Orleans at the same time. Voila, superficial plausibility, and off we go.
Shaw was not starved for sexual or intellectual companionship. He had REALLY significant friends and contacts - including famed playwright Tennessee Williams and some very significant New Yorkers. In its heyday, the Trade Mart was a BIG deal. Simply because the gay district of New Orleans is not all that physically large, I think it's certainly possible that Ferrie and Shaw were in proximity to one another at one time or another, but all attempts to connect them came to nothing. I filter Pena's Ferrie-Shaw revelations through the lens of his other crap and come up with "teller of tall tales."
With almost all the characters in the JFKA saga, the downfall of CT theorizing is learning all you can about the real people. The CT version typically proves to be completely at odds with their real lives. For that matter, if Ferrie and Shaw did have some sexual/social connection that had nothing to with the JFKA, then who cares? Surely, in every instance the purpose is to connect Shaw to some Garrison-type JFKA plot through innuendo.
Reading everything Pena said, I see him as a classic teller of tall tales. The HSCA interview notes refer to him as "dangling bits of information," and that seems to be all he did. He places himself just about everywhere in the New Orleans wing of JFKA speculation, but he never really says anything apart from his obvious effort to implicate DeBrueys and transform Oswald into some sort of FBI/Customs/INS operative (WHAT?). Yes, he doesn't specifically connect Shaw to the JFKA, but like many tellers of tall tales, he does so through innuendo. When asked by the HSCA about a connection between Oswald and Shaw, he just declines to comment on that (wink wink).
I don't know what Pena's game was - but that's what I end up saying, again and again, about the inexplicable tellers of tall tales across the entire spectrum of weirdness. The fact that they often have no obvious motive or agenda is what makes them doubly tough to expose. Pena certainly comes across in the HSCA testimony as having a major vendetta against DeBrueys for some reason.
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Ferrie was an interesting and bizarre character. He and Shaw shared gay proclivities.
What are the proclivities you are referring to here? Does the Carpenter book go into Shaws sex life?
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Pena certainly comes across in the HSCA testimony as having a major vendetta against DeBrueys for some reason.
Thats straightforward. Pena was passing info to DeBrueys about possible cuban exile communists in the New Orleans area and next thing Pena sees DeBrueys working with the communist LHO. Pena probably thought he and DeBrueys were on the same side until he saw DeBrueys and LHO together. Then he may have thought DeBrueys had communist sympathies. This would mean Pena had been passing all his tips on unearthing communists to the communist DeBrueys. I think thats what the beef is about.
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For that matter, if Ferrie and Shaw did have some sexual/social connection that had nothing to with the JFKA, then who cares? Surely, in every instance the purpose is to connect Shaw to some Garrison-type JFKA plot through innuendo.
If Garrison was right about Ferrie and Shaw knowing each other, and then he sees Shaw denying this, you can see how Garrison may have come to become obsessed with Shaw. Even if it has nothing to do with the JFKA, it may help clarify what was going on with Garrison and his investigation.
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What are the proclivities you are referring to here? Does the Carpenter book go into Shaws sex life?
Very much so. Possibly more than you want to know. But not with Ferrie.
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My Amazon review of Carpenter's book, FWIW:
Customer Review
3.0 out of 5 stars Worthwhile but overwhelming with extraneous and unnecessary detail
Reviewed in the United States on October 16, 2025
Format: Kindle Verified Purchase
This is an exhaustive and exhausting effort. It reads as though compiled from Shaw's calendar and correspondence. The level of extraneous and unnecessary detail is like no book I've ever read. Seemingly every meeting Shaw ever attended, every speech he ever gave, every letter he ever wrote. "And then he did this ... and then he did this ... and then he did that," but with little insight or context. When you're done, there are perhaps 200 pages comprising a good, solid, well-researched biography of Shaw, with plenty of details that I as a longtime JFK assassination buff didn't know and found very interesting. It's just that it's all buried beneath so much extraneous and unnecessary detail that I finally found myself skipping through large portions on my Kindle and then pausing when there was finally something more substantive than "And then he did this ... and then he did this ... and then he did this." It is definitely a worthwhile book but desperately in need of an editor or publisher with the sense to say "250 pages and not one page more."
I see you started the same thread at the Ed Forum. I'm guessing you'll have a much more receptive audience since there is a 2022 Pena thread in which DiEugenio, Simpich and Boylan were practically orgasmic. I have a hard time believing DeBrueys was central to the JFKA and completely lying about his non-relationship with Pena, or that Oswald was openly consorting with DeBrueys, Customs agents and INS agents. All of which leads me to think the Ferrie-Shaw stuff is likewise nonsense.
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Very much so. Possibly more than you want to know. But not with Ferrie.
Do you think Ferrie could have been supplying young men from the parties at his house to Shaw? Would that be the kind of thing Shaw would have been known to be into?
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I think this is all very silly. Both Shaw and Ferrie denied knowing each other. None of their friends said they knew each other.
They were in very different social circles.
The only person to say they knew each other was Perry Russo, and, as we know, he has zero credibility.
fred
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Being a Serious JFKA Researcher, I went back through my Kindle edition of Carpenter's book. He does not mention the Habana Bar or Pena, presumably because the book was published in 2014 and Pena's HSCA testimony did not become public until the 2017 document release.
He does mention Ferrie 523 times and I, as a Serious JFKA Researcher, scrolled through all 523 references. Carpenter does not shy away from the various folks who said they had seen Ferrie and Shaw together, or from the several who knew one or both of them very well and said they had never heard one mention the other. Carpenter doesn't state a firm conclusion, but there just doesn't seem to be any solid evidence. Many people apparently believe the confusion is that Ferrie was seen in the company of Bannister - who, like Shaw, was tall and gray-haired.
The book gives you a sense of how very important, respected and even beloved Shaw was. Yes, he was heavily into the gay scene and the book recounts one of his kind-of-clumsy efforts to pick up a young guy, but he certainly didn't "need" Ferrie and would have descended far below his social, economic and intellectual class to have openly associated with him. The Shaw who emerges from the book simply would not have descended to the level of frequenting the Habana Bar with Ferrie.
FWIW, when Ferrie was first asked about Clay Shaw, his response was "Who's Clay Shaw?"
I think I'm going to bump my Amazon review to 4 stars. Carpenter worked 18 years on this book, and it is really quite astonishing.
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I debunk a lot of the Ferrie knew Shaw nonsense in this blog post.
https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/the-scholarship-of-james-dieugenio (https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/the-scholarship-of-james-dieugenio)