JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on January 04, 2026, 02:02:09 PM
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I encountered this fascinating factoid while doing some non-JFKA reading. It’s the sort of thing that, if true, would be a conspiratorial bombshell.
The Gerharts
Rev. Elmer G. Gerhart and his wife Marietta were real people. (The G is sometimes shown as Gottshall, but his death certificate says Godshall.) He was an evangelistic minister in Houston for at least 55 years. He died in 1972 at age 90. Marietta Collins was his second wife. He married her in 1945. She died in Houston in 1990 at age 83. At the time of the JFKA they would have been 81 and 56 respectively.
Apart from these facts, the Gerharts are completely obscure. You can find absolutely nothing meaningful. On the surface, they scarcely sound like the tellers of tall JFKA tales.
Charles Frederick Rogers
He likewise was very real. He was the prime suspect in the hideous 1965 murders of his parents, Fred and Edwina Rogers. He disappeared forever right after the murders and was declared legally dead in 1975. The murders are well-known as the “Texas Icebox” murders.
Charles was extremely intelligent but bizarre. He had a degree in nuclear physics and is reported to have spoken seven languages. He was a Navy pilot and in Naval Intelligence in WW2. At the time of the murders, he was 43 and living with his parents. They reportedly didn’t speak at all; his mother would pass notes under his bedroom door. Close neighbors didn’t even know he existed.
Charles spent nine years as an extremely talented seismologist with Shell Oil but quit abruptly without explanation in 1957. It is rumored that he thereafter was a CIA operative, possibly on contract.
The intersection of the Gerharts and Charles Frederick Rogers
In 1992, two private investigators named James R. Craig and Phillip A. Rogers published a “fictionalized account” of the JFKA called The Man on the Grassy Knoll. The basic thrust is that the Three Tramps were Charles Frederick Rogers, Charles Harrleson and Chauncey Holt, with Rogers and Harrelson firing shots. Craig and Phillips seem to be just about as obscure as the Gerharts. I don’t have the book and could find nothing about them.
Oddly for a fictionalized account, the authors feature the Gerharts prominently in the book. Marietta Gerhart would have died only two years before it was published.
The account attributed to the Gerharts is that, on September 25, 1963 two tired men who gave the names Lee and Charles appeared at their church. They said they had traveled from New Orleans and were on their way to Mexico. They were supposed to meet a contact named “Carlos” at a bus stop down the street but he had failed to show.
The Gerharts invited them in and fed them. Lee used the phone and said he had reached Carlos. The Gerharts watched from a window as the men made their rendezvous at the bus stop. They recognized “Carlos” as Charles Frederick Rogers, with whom they were familiar because his mother attended their church.
After the JFKA, they recognized Lee as Oswald. Elmer called the Houston office of the FBI, which showed little interest. He called again a short time later and was told his report had been sent to the Dallas office. Hearing nothing further, he confided in a friend who was a retired CIA guy. The guy told Elmer he had done his civic duty and should back off.
The speculation [?] in The Man on the Grassy Knoll is that Charles Frederick Rogers obtained Oswald’s visa and identification at the bus stop and impersonated him in Mexico City on a mission in which Ferrie and Bannister were connected. (It appears that Charles Frederick Rogers had been with the Civil Air Patrol in the 1950’s and had known Ferrie well. At least this is reported elsewhere as though it were fact.)
So what is this really all about?
The Oswald encounter by the Gerharts as reported in The Man on the Grassy Knoll has received no attention in the conspiracy literature. Literally none. It apparently was and is regarded as complete fiction.
And yet: The Gerharts were very real people. Marietta would have been alive while the authors were doing their research. The Gerhart tale, and much of the discussion of Charles Frederick Rogers, is highly factual-sounding. It gives the strong impression of having some basis in reality.
Would the authors have simply invented the Gerhart tale using the names of a longtime Houston evangelist and his wife? This seems highly unlikely. Even the connection between them and the mysterious Charles Frederick Rogers, the ostensible Texas Icebox murderer (two years after the JFKA), seems an unlikely invention.
Alas, I don’t have the book and used copies are hundreds of dollars. If anyone has it or knows the genesis of the Gerharts’ supposed Oswald encounter, I’d be curious to know what you can add. If the authors claim to have interviewed Marietta, that would certainly be interesting. If nothing in The Man on the Grassy Knoll but the Gerharts’ encounter has a basis in fact, that would still be quite a conspiratorial bombshell.
(BTW, The Man on the Grassy Knoll by James Crawley is a completely different 2010 book. No connection.)
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Well, if it isn't KGB*-minimizing, Donald Trump-loving Fancy Pants Rants!
Welcome back, Fancy-Pants Rants!
-- Tom
*Today's SVR and FSB
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Here is the well-researched piece at the Texas True Crime blog that set me off on this tangent: https://txtruecrimeblog.com/blog-archive/ice-box-murders.
The author acknowledges the fictional nature of The Man on the Grassy Knoll but clearly takes it quite seriously. The book is also cited several other places, seemingly with respect, although I found nothing further about the Gerharts' tale.
I was able to view some pages of the book here: https://archive.org/details/manongrassyknoll00crai/mode/2up . It is dedicated to the memory of Edwina Rogers, the mother of Charles Frederick Rogers who was ostensibly butchered (literally butchered) by him.
There is a short 2005 thread at the Ed Forum on "The Gerhart Incident" that really doesn't go anywhere in terms of the authenticity of the Gerharts actually making such a claim. It mentions that Craig, one of the authors of The Man on the Grassy Knoll, was the first to videotape an interview with Chauncey Holt, so he must've been doing some actual research and presumably didn't simply invent the Gerhart incident.
All very weird. The sort of thing I'd spend time on if I were more CT-oriented. If one takes the LN narrative as straight-line truth from A to Z, I must say that there are enough genuinely weird and puzzling tangents at every point from A to Z to give anyone this side of a complete LN fanatic considerable pause. Ferrie's trip to the ice skating rink in Houston, for example - really?
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One of the primary reasons I am not "back," and will not be "back," is because you are the single most boring, repetitive, obsessive, one-dimensional participant I believe I have ever encountered on any internet forum of any type.
On my last post before this thread, some 2+ months ago, I concluded by stating "I would note that I have observed the curious phenomenon that both this forum and the Other One seem to be solidly in the grip of tedious characters who have taken lessons in 'How to Kill an Internet Forum.'"
In the forefront of those tedious characters would be: you.
Dear Fancy Pants Rants,
Just remember that Lt. Col. Putin thanks you for supporting his favorite "useful idiot," The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx"), and for minimizing the KGB*.
-- Tom
*Today's SVR and FSB
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Well, I quickly skimmed the entire book. It is well-researched and well-written, by no means a schlock effort. The authors shared their work with the Houston Police Deparment. They state that the book is "true," being fictionalized only in the sense that the murders of Fred and Edwina Rogers are technically still unsolved and much dialogue is fact-based speculation. It is clearly intended to be taken seriously.
The Gerharts are not bit players. They are major characters throughout the book. There is an extensive biography of Rev. Gerhart that is entirely accurate as far as I can tell. The authors also explain his long connecfion with the retired CIA guy. The interaction with Oswald is fleshed out at great length and has to be largely speculative.
The authors note the passing of Marietta Gerhart in 1990 but do not acknowledge her as one of their sources. They say that she confided in several close friends with the stipulation that they not speak until after her death.
The bottom line, as it always seems to be, is "Who knows?" The story - meaning specifically the Gerharts' alleged encounter, not the Three Tramps stuff - involves real and seemingly unlikely people and has the ring of truth, but now we'll never know. If true, it would put a huge hole in the LN narrative. (FWIW, Carlos Marcello figures prominently in the book.)
Anyway, I look forward to reading the whole thing.
I'm surprised the book seems to have received so little attention in the ensuing 34 years. Shouldn't the Gerharts' tale alone be kind of a big deal conspiracy-wise even if one rejects much of the rest of the book? And Charles Frederick Rogers absolutely sounds like yet another candidate, along with Oswald and Ferrie, for The Most Interesting Man in the World.
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Well, I quickly skimmed the entire book. It is well-researched and well-written, by no means a schlock effort. The authors shared their work with the Houston Police Deparment. They state that the book is "true," being fictionalized only in the sense that the murders of Fred and Edwina Rogers are technically still unsolved and much dialogue is fact-based speculation. It is clearly intended to be taken seriously.
The Gerharts are not bit players. They are major characters throughout the book. There is an extensive biography of Rev. Gerhart that is entirely accurate as far as I can tell. The authors also explain his long connection with the retired CIA guy. The interaction with Oswald is fleshed out at great length and has to be largely speculative.
The authors note the passing of Marietta Gerhart in 1990 but do not acknowledge her as one of their sources. They say that she confided in several close friends with the stipulation that they not speak until after her death.
The bottom line, as it always seems to be, is "Who knows?" The story - meaning specifically the Gerharts' alleged encounter, not the Three Tramps stuff - involves real and seemingly unlikely people and has the ring of truth, but now we'll never know. If true, it would put a huge hole in the LN narrative. (FWIW, Carlos Marcello figures prominently in the book.)
Anyway, I look forward to reading the whole thing.
I'm surprised the book seems to have received so little attention in the ensuing 34 years. Shouldn't the Gerharts' tale alone be kind of a big deal conspiracy-wise even if one rejects much of the rest of the book? And Charles Frederick Rogers absolutely sounds like yet another candidate, along with Oswald and Ferrie, for The Most Interesting Man in the World.
Dear FPR,
The book would have been a lot more popular if Marietta had been abducted and inseminated by aliens (no, not those pet-eating Salvadorians; the UFO kind), don't you think?
-- Tom
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Here FWIW is the transcript of a 1991 interview that Craig and Rogers (and apparently Gary Shaw) did with Chauncey Holt in 1991, obviously in connection with The Man on the Grassy Knoll: https://georgemagazine.site/category/jfk-murder-solved/chauncey-holt/. As in the UFO field, separating fact from convincing fantasy can be extremely difficult. Apart from all the Three Tramps stuff and even most of the Charles Frederick Rogers stuff, I continue to find the Gerhart encounter fascinating. It's the sort of thing that, if it had come to light long before 1992, could have been intensively investigated and would have had the potential to cast more doubt on the LN narrative than 99% of the BS discussed today; alas, it will now forever remain a historical curiosity that rings true but may be entirely bogus for reasons we'll never understand (as is true of most bogus UFO stuff as well). Like many, many UFO prevaricators, Elmer and Marietta seem highly unlikely candidates with no obvious agenda for concocting and perpetuating such a tale. It's too bad we don't have the story directly from the horses' mouths, as opposed to what their relatives apparently told Craig and Phillips almost 30 years later and what the authors then did in fictionalizing the incident.
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Just thinking out loud now, but what sense does this make:
You’re Elmer and Marietta Gerhart, a respected Christian couple with your very own evangelistic church. Edwina Rogers attends your church and sometimes shares her troubles with Marietta. In 1963, you see her son Charles mysteriously meeting Oswald just before Oswald's trip to Mexico City. After the JFKA, Elmer ostensibly calls the FBI twice. There is, of course, no record of this. Do you say anything to Edwina or Fred or even the Houston Police? Apparently not. Your friend the former CIA guy in Pennsylvania mysteriously tells you to back off. Why – what the hell does he know? You dutifully let the matter drop. Less than two years later, Edwina and Fred are brutally butchered in a ghastly, headline-making murder. Old Elmer officiates at their funerals. Their son Charles is the prime (i.e., only) suspect. Do you say anything to the Houston Police about having seen him with Oswald? Apparently not. Until Elmer dies in 1972 and Marietta dies in 1990, you say nothing about any of this except to “close friends” (who?) whom you swear to secrecy because you fear retribution from Harrelson. Harrelson is admittedly a scary guy, but he first made his JFK-related claims in 1980 and he’s been sitting in prison since 1982 – and if you’re so worried, why do you confide in “close friends” anyway? If you authorize them to talk after your death, why don’t you (Marietta) leave some written, audio or video record?
Nah, it just doesn’t add up. Bummer. I also have a hard time placing Oswald in the company of Rogers and Harrelson for any purpose. FWIW, in 1963 Harrelson (who was just about the same age as Oswald) was married with three sons and scarcely the crazed druggie murderer he would become: “Harrelson attended Huntsville High School, where he served as vice president of the poster club and was involved in a cappella and high school choir before dropping out and joining the U.S. Navy, where he served as a sonar man. Harrelson was married to Diane Lou Oswald [OSWALD?] on February 26, 1958, by Baptist Rev. L. D. Morgan in Pasadena, Texas. The couple had three sons, Jordan Kenneth, Woodrow “Woody” Tracy, and Brett. Harrelson held many odd jobs, including working as a book salesman (where he was presented ‘Salesman of the Year') and repairing dental equipment, but he preferred gambling.” https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/harrelson-charles-voyde.
Oh, well, it was interesting (to me) while it lasted. Now, thanks to Alex Harris, I’m moving on to my current working hypothesis that alien bodies are stashed in the climate-controlled trunk of a faux JFK limo hidden deep in the salt caves of Lenexa, Kansas. I'll get back to you, or maybe not.
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The book is here:
https://archive.org/details/manongrassyknoll00crai/mode/2up?q=%22The+Man+on+the+Grassy+Knoll%22
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The book is here:
https://archive.org/details/manongrassyknoll00crai/mode/2up?q=%22The+Man+on+the+Grassy+Knoll%22
That's where I said I had found a few pages. I don't believe the whole book is available there, but maybe it is. Another member alerted me that it can be downloaded for free with a free 30-day trial subscription to SCRIBD, which is how I got the whole book.
https://www.scribd.com/document/335412837/The-Man-on-the-Grassy-Knoll
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<<< The account attributed to the Gerharts is that, on September 25, 1963 two tired men who gave the names Lee and Charles appeared at their church. They said they had traveled from New Orleans and were on their way to Mexico. They were supposed to meet a contact named “Carlos” at a bus stop down the street but he had failed to show.
The Gerharts invited them in and fed them. Lee used the phone and said he had reached Carlos. The Gerharts watched from a window as the men made their rendezvous at the bus stop. They recognized “Carlos” as Charles Frederick Rogers, with whom they were familiar because his mother attended their church.
After the JFKA, they recognized Lee as Oswald. Elmer called the Houston office of the FBI, which showed little interest. He called again a short time later and was told his report had been sent to the Dallas office. Hearing nothing further, he confided in a friend who was a retired CIA guy. The guy told Elmer he had done his civic duty and should back off. >>>
The main question that comes to my mind is, Is there documentation that Elmer Gerhart did in fact call the FBI and report he had seen Oswald with Rogers? If so, this would lend some credence to his story.
I am skeptical of the Gerharts' story, but I would be inclined to give it a closer look if there were proof that Elmer Gerhart called the FBI and reported seeing Oswald with Rogers.
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Since I’ve now read the book, I’ll close out this exercise with my final verdict. I believe the Gerharts’ supposed encounter with Oswald (and Harrelson) has proved to be yet another factoid ripe for the busting.
As you can tell from my original post, I started with open-minded enthusiasm that this might be the real deal. I was reading the account of the famed Icebox Murders at the Texas True Crime blog and had no idea I was going to be sucked back into the JFKA follies.
My only interest was and is the Gerharts’ encounter. The conspiracy theory set forth in the book is the standard CIA/Mafia/anti-Castro scenario with the added twist of the Three Tramps being Charles Frederick Rogers (the probable Icebox Murderer), Charles Harrelson and Chauncey Holt.
I now believe that the authors, James R. Craig and Phillip A. Rogers, simply took Harrelson’s claims and especially Holt’s claims and weaved them together with the Icebox Murders and the truly mysterious, Ferrie-like Charles Frederick Rogers and said, “Voila, a JFKA conspiracy theory! It coulda happened this way!”
The book is fascinating and impressive even if it’s 98% speculative fiction. I encourage you to read it. Alas, there is not one citation or footnote. The Acknowledgements give no clue as to the authors’ sources for their fantastic claims.
I’m perplexed as to the authors’ motives. They claim the book is “true” and clearly intended for it to be taken seriously – yet how could they have expected it to be taken seriously when we have no clue where it all came from? Yes, Chauncey Holt for sure, and the Houston Police investigation of the Icebox Murders for sure, but the sources of the Gerhart stuff and much else are a complete mystery.
I traced all the Acknowledgments as best I could and came up completely empty. I researched the Gerharts as best I could and came up close to empty. Rev. Elmer Gerhart had been previously married to Bessie, but she died of illness in 1944. He married Marietta less than a year later. He and Bessie had three children, two of whom were still alive when the book was published (one until 2008) – but they are not cited in the Acknowledgments and surely could not have known all that the authors reveal. Elmer and Marietta had no children, so there is no likely source there. The authors say that Marietta revealed the Oswald encounter to “close friends” before she died in 1990, but those friends are not acknowledged or even hinted at and surely could not have had the astonishing level of knowledge the authors reveal.
I could find no contact information for either author, but I’d love to know their source for the Gerhart stuff.
At least according to Google and the standard genealogical sites, Rev. Elmer and Marietta were extremely obscure. I found only the basics, yet the book has more about them than I could tell you about my own family: Elmer’s first marriage, his ministerial career ups and downs beginning in the 1920’s, his meeting with and marriage to Marietta, his breakup with his former ministerial partners, his founding of his own Lord’s Church at 1616 Indiana Street in Houston in 1948, the couples’ sterling reputation in the community for aiding those in need, and even a fair amount about Marietta’s background. Who on earth was the source for all this – which, as far as I can tell after diligent inquiry, is entirely accurate.
Get this: The Gerhart tale begins in 1943 when Elmer is on a solo vacation in Acapulco. A chance restaurant encounter leads to a life-long friendship with “Charles Froelich” a/k/a “the Dutchman,” who is a high-level covert agent for the X-2 counterespionage branch of the OSS and who later reveals to Elmer that he has reluctantly had to assassinate a number of victims. The authors say that “Carl” is long dead, so how could they possibly know any of this – which happens to be pretty critical to the rest of the book? (Elmer, of course, knew “Carl’s” real name, but he and Marietta apparently took it to their graves. Ho-kay …)
In the late 1950s, the authors say, Charles Frederick Rogers applied successfully to be a CIA covert agent. Two CIA types visit the Gerharts as part of the background check, and Elmer guesses who they are. Right then and there, he calls “Carl” in Pennsylvania and asks him to grease the wheels of Charles’ application – which “Carl” does. How could the authors possibly know this?
After the JFKA and Rev. Elmer’s two unsuccessful attempts to interest the FBI in his and Marietta’s encounter with Oswald and Harrelson, Elmer again turns to “Carl.” “Carl,” now retired, does some checking with his CIA-type sources and sternly warns the Gerharts that they have done their civic duty, are in grave danger and should back off, even to the extent of taking a long vacation. Again, the authors know this how?
The Oswald-Harrelson-Rogers encounter itself is set forth in extensive, highly imaginative and clearly speculative detail. The interaction with Oswald and Harrelson goes on for pages. Did Markietta really blab her head off in anything like this level of detail to her “close friends,” and did those unnamed friends really recall it in this level of detail to the authors?
Just focusing on the encounters, there are a number of red flags that eventually caused me to morph from mild enthusiast to snarling Factoid Buster:
1. First is the conspiracy itself. The CIA/Mafia/anti-Castro wing of Conspiracy World is the one in which I have the greatest difficulty fitting the real Oswald. I have great difficulty picturing Oswald hobnobbing with Harrelson and willingly turning over his passport to the truly bizarre Rogers. It just doesn’t ring true to me.
2. The location and circumstances are somewhat unlikely. After their visit with the Gerharts, Oswald and Harrelson don’t simply leave and meet Rogers (a/k/a “Carlos”) at the bus stop where they were originally supposed to meet him, apparently a mile or two away. No, they meet him under a streetlight just down the street, and Rogers obligingly turns his head into the light so the Gerharts can recognize him. (His mother Edwina had sometimes taken him to the church, so that’s how the recognition angle is covered.)
3. After the JFKA, the Gerharts are torn as to whether they should tell Edwina about their encounter with Oswald and Harrelson. It seems that they intended to, but … before they do so, Edwina confides in them that Charles had been receiving mysterious late-night calls from someone named “Lee” and she fears he is involved in something BIG (like the JFKA!). The Gerharts decide to remain silent and not add to Edwina’s anguish. Convenient, eh?
4. Despite Elmer supposedly calling the Houston FBI office twice and being told that his report has been forwarded to Dallas, there is no record of this. The authors do not address this or even indicate they made any inquiry.
5. Here’s a biggie: After Edwina and her husband Fred are brutally butchered, almost certainly by Charles, the Houston Police contact the Gerharts as a routine part of their investigation. The Gerharts are again torn. If they reveal what Edwina told them about the calls from “Lee” and her suspicions about the JFKA, this would violate the pastoral privilege (not with Edwina dead, folks), so they say nothing. But what about their own encounter and observation? They say nothing about this either, both because “Carl” has sternly warned them and because they fear Harrelson is on their trail. Ergo, there is conveniently no Houston Police record of the Gerharts having said anything about this either.
Hence, your intrepid Factoid Buster is devoid of all previous enthusiasm and must chalk this up to just another factoid.
And yet … and yet … the Gerharts were real people, the authors know a hell of a lot about them, and the tale of the encounter with Oswald came from SOMEWHERE. Where the hell did it come from? I have no clue, but my strong suspicion is that whatever actually happened with the Gerharts, whatever Marietta actually said to close friends, and whatever the authors’ source actually told them, the encounter did not involve Oswald.
The parallels with umpteen “Roswell UFO crash” tales that have gone poof are absolutely fascinating. I should’ve learned my lesson years ago.
Well, that’s all I’ve got to say about that. Thank you for your kind attention, those of you who have paid any attention. You may now return to your intense speculation about mystery getaway cars, whether the first shot occurred at Z014, whether Rosemary Willis was actually sitting on Howard Brennan’s lap, and all the other minutiae that strikes me as absurd but seems to fascinate you folks.
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Lance: There are no documents in the Mary ferrell collection that mention either of the Gerharts.
fred