JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on December 08, 2025, 01:21:40 AM
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How do we know that Rosemary Willis, in her conscious reaction to Oswald's first, missing everything shot at "Z-124," had already started looking towards the TSBD by Z-145?
Answer: By comparing the direction she's looking in Z-138 (towards JFK and Jackie) with the way her head and upper-torso are turned to her right in Z-145.
(https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z138.jpg)
(https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg)
Interestingly, this is about the same time that motorcycle policeman Jim Chaney is looking to his left at JFK (and JFK has turned his head quickly -- and very briefly -- to his left), and Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett in the passenger side rear seat of the follow-up car, having heard "a firecracker," starts leaning to his right to see if JFK's okay.
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How do we know that Rosemary Willis, in her conscious reaction to Oswald's first, missing everything shot at "Z-124," had already started looking towards the TSBD by Z-145?
Answer: By comparing the direction she's looking in Z-138 (towards JFK and Jackie) with the way her head and upper-torso are turned to her right in Z-145.
(https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z138.jpg)
(https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg)
Interestingly, this is about the same time that motorcycle policeman Jim Chaney is looking to his left at JFK (and JFK has turned his head quickly -- and very briefly -- to his left), and Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett in the passenger side rear seat of the follow-up car, having heard "a firecracker," starts leaning to his right to see if JFK's okay.
This is a crop of Z137. That frame’s significance is that it is the frame associated with the Willis4 photo. I put a yellow arrow pointed at Willis. He is taking the photo and has his face pointed about 90-degrees to the camera’s angle. Both the limo and the TSBD are in that direction at that point in time (as can be seen in the Willis4 photo). In Z137 it appears to me that Rosemary is looking directly at the camera.
(https://i.vgy.me/AB09Ur.jpg)
If you will take notice of the gray-haired lady with the black hat who has her left arm and purse blocking the Zapruder’s camera’s view of Rosemary’s right side; you should be able to see that the lady’s right arm is raised up high. What is interesting about that is that she appears to be pointing directly at the sniper’s window. And there is a large gap in the motorcade between the queen mary vehicle and the VP vehicle. So there is no vehicle in the direction (where one might thing she is looking and waving). See the animation image below from the time of the Z141 frame.
(https://i.vgy.me/vDlsEC.jpg)
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This is a crop of Z137. That frame’s significance is that it is the frame associated with the Willis4 photo. I put a yellow arrow pointed at Willis. He is taking the photo and has his face pointed about 90-degrees to the camera’s angle. Both the limo and the TSBD are in that direction at that point in time (as can be seen in the Willis4 photo). In Z137 it appears to me that Rosemary is looking directly at the camera.
(https://i.vgy.me/AB09Ur.jpg)
If you will take notice of the gray-haired lady with the black hat who has her left arm and purse blocking the Zapruder’s camera’s view of Rosemary’s right side; you should be able to see that the lady’s right arm is raised up high. What is interesting about that is that she appears to be pointing directly at the sniper’s window. And there is a large gap in the motorcade between the queen mary vehicle and the VP vehicle. So there is no vehicle in the direction (where one might thing she is looking and waving). See the animation image below from the time of the Z141 frame.
(https://i.vgy.me/vDlsEC.jpg)
Isn't the gray-haired lady with the black hat looking in the same direction as Mr. Willis?
Is she still pointing to the Sniper's Nest as she steps into the street in Z-145?
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Isn't the gray-haired lady with the black hat looking in the same direction as Mr. Willis?
Is she still pointing to the Sniper's Nest as she steps into the street in Z-145?
No, I think the gray-haired lady and her companion are pointing up at the sniper’s nest window. Here’s an animation, that has some other folks circled, but we can still see this gray-haired lady pointing up in the same direction, then lowering her right arm as she swings her head around to see the presidential limo. This animation starts in the Z160s, a couple of seconds after we see her already pointing up at the sniper’s nest in the Z137 frame. I think that if she was waving to anyone in the motorcade, she would have been turning and following their movement. Instead what we see is her pointing in the same direction for quite a while. As you might can tell, it is her companion who is stepping backwards out of the street. The gray-haired lady does not step into the street. Her companion also seems to be pointing up at the sniper’s nest window and waving a handkerchief with her other hand. I suspect they are trying to get the SS agents to look up at the sniper’s nest window because they both see LHO aiming and firing his rifle. They can both be seen in that same area in the Zapruder film before the motorcade arrives (pre 133). I suspect they (like several others noticed LHO n the window before the motorcade arrived). Apparently they never came forward with their accounts, so we will never know for sure if my imagination is correct or not.
(https://i.vgy.me/Fk7zgY.gif)
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This is a crop of Z137. That frame’s significance is that it is the frame associated with the Willis4 photo. I put a yellow arrow pointed at Willis. He is taking the photo and has his face pointed about 90-degrees to the camera’s angle. Both the limo and the TSBD are in that direction at that point in time (as can be seen in the Willis4 photo). In Z137 it appears to me that Rosemary is looking directly at the camera.
(https://i.vgy.me/AB09Ur.jpg)
If you will take notice of the gray-haired lady with the black hat who has her left arm and purse blocking the Zapruder’s camera’s view of Rosemary’s right side; you should be able to see that the lady’s right arm is raised up high. What is interesting about that is that she appears to be pointing directly at the sniper’s window. And there is a large gap in the motorcade between the queen mary vehicle and the VP vehicle. So there is no vehicle in the direction (where one might thing she is looking and waving). See the animation image below from the time of the Z141 frame.
(https://i.vgy.me/vDlsEC.jpg)
"In Z137 it appears to me that Rosemary is looking directly at the camera."
Whose camera is she looking at? She's looking straight ahead in frame 137.
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"In Z137 it appears to me that Rosemary is looking directly at the camera."
Whose camera is she looking at? She's looking straight ahead in frame 137.
Hi Steve, I should have specified Zapruder’s camera. Thanks for helping to clarify this.
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This is a crop of Z137. That frame’s significance is that it is the frame associated with the Willis4 photo. I put a yellow arrow pointed at Willis. He is taking the photo and has his face pointed about 90-degrees to the camera’s angle. Both the limo and the TSBD are in that direction at that point in time (as can be seen in the Willis4 photo). In Z137 it appears to me that Rosemary is looking directly at the camera.
(https://i.vgy.me/AB09Ur.jpg)
If you will take notice of the gray-haired lady with the black hat who has her left arm and purse blocking the Zapruder’s camera’s view of Rosemary’s right side; you should be able to see that the lady’s right arm is raised up high. What is interesting about that is that she appears to be pointing directly at the sniper’s window. And there is a large gap in the motorcade between the queen mary vehicle and the VP vehicle. So there is no vehicle in the direction (where one might thing she is looking and waving). See the animation image below from the time of the Z141 frame.
(https://i.vgy.me/vDlsEC.jpg)
Looking at Willis 4, the lady with the, "right arm raised up high", could be waving at the JFK Limo. She has Willis in front of her and could be waving above his head in order to possibly catch the eye of Jackie/JFK, etc.
The TSBD has a very large footprint. The front of that building extends well down the Elm St Ext. A person can be looking at the end of the TSBD attached to the Huge Gates, and their view would be a great distance from the Sniper's Nest. Glancing in the direction of the front of the TSBD does Not automatically include seeing the sniper's nest.
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Looking at Willis 4, the lady with the, "right arm raised up high", could be waving at the JFK Limo. She has Willis in front of her and could be waving above his head in order to possibly catch the eye of Jackie/JFK, etc.
The TSBD has a very large footprint. The front of that building extends well down the Elm St Ext. A person can be looking at the end of the TSBD attached to the Huge Gates, and their view would be a great distance from the Sniper's Nest. Glancing in the direction of the front of the TSBD does Not automatically include seeing the sniper's nest.
In the animated GIF, the direction that her arm and head are pointed stays the same for well over 2-seconds plus however much time she might have been doing this before Z133. Meanwhile the motorcade is moving right along. Near the end of the animated GIF she drops her right arm and turns her head to her left over 90-degrees to apparently see the presidential limousine. Meanwhile her companion continues to apparently point in that same original direction. If they were waving at anyone in the motorcade, I cannot believe that it was JFK or anyone in his limo or the queen mary.
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In the animated GIF, the direction that her arm and head are pointed stays the same for well over 2-seconds plus however much time she might have been doing this before Z133. Meanwhile the motorcade is moving right along. Near the end of the animated GIF she drops her right arm and turns her head to her left over 90-degrees to apparently see the presidential limousine. Meanwhile her companion continues to apparently point in that same original direction. If they were waving at anyone in the motorcade, I cannot believe that it was JFK or anyone in his limo or the queen mary.
When you say "her companion," to whom are you referring?
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In the animated GIF, the direction that her arm and head are pointed stays the same for well over 2-seconds plus however much time she might have been doing this before Z133. Meanwhile the motorcade is moving right along. Near the end of the animated GIF she drops her right arm and turns her head to her left over 90-degrees to apparently see the presidential limousine. Meanwhile her companion continues to apparently point in that same original direction. If they were waving at anyone in the motorcade, I cannot believe that it was JFK or anyone in his limo or the queen mary.
I believe one of these ladies was waving a hanky around. Let's keep that in mind with respect to a raised arm and people/Willis standing between these women and the JFK Limo. Raised arm(s) amidst a passing parade is not uncommon and certainly Not automatically connected to a sniper's nest.
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I believe one of these ladies was waving a hanky around. Let's keep that in mind with respect to a raised arm and people/Willis standing between these women and the JFK Limo. Raised arm(s) amidst a passing parade is not uncommon and certainly Not automatically connected to a sniper's nest.
The point is that they are both looking well behind the JFK limo towards the sniper’s nest window and pointing up high towards the sixth floor. And there is a large gap between the queen Mary and LBJ’s vehicle. So who the puck do you suppose they are waving at?
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When you say "her companion," to whom are you referring?
The other elderly lady who is stepping back off of the street and waving a white handkerchief in her left hand and pointing up towards the sniper’s nest with her right hand. I have drawn blue arrows at their heads. They can be seen together in that same area in the pre-Z133 section of the Zapruder film. Watch the animated GIF and you should see both of them pointing and looking in the same direction well behind the JFK limo towards the sniper’s nest window.
(https://i.vgy.me/M6brCb.jpg)
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The point is that they are both looking well behind the JFK limo towards the sniper’s nest window and pointing up high towards the sixth floor. And there is a large gap between the queen Mary and LBJ’s vehicle. So who the puck do you suppose they are waving at?
Let's slow it up a little. YOU have no idea if they are looking, "towards the sniper's nest window....". That is your Opinion. It is Not Fact. And the waving of a hanky is a valid consideration here. Funny how the hanky has Not been mentioned during this discussion.
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Let's slow it up a little. YOU have no idea if they are looking, "towards the sniper's nest window....". That is your Opinion. It is Not Fact. And the waving of a hanky is a valid consideration here. Funny how the hanky has Not been mentioned during this discussion.
Comrade Storing,
She HAD the hanky IN her HAND already and was probably waving IT at JFK and Jackie WHEN she noticed Lee HARVEY Oswald in the WINDOW after he'd fired HIS first, MISSING-everything, shot at "Z-124," and CONTINUED waving it, HOPING the Secret Service guys would NOTICE her friend's POINTING to the WINDOW.
-- Tom
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Meanwhile Betzner is totally oblivious to the so called early Z124 shot. Maybe his camera causes him to go temporarily deaf? 🙄
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Meanwhile Betzner is totally oblivious to the so called early Z124 shot. Maybe his camera causes him to go temporarily deaf? 🙄
He probably thought it was a motorcycle backfire and ignored it.
Jackie did say that the Harleys had been doing that a lot.
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He probably thought it was a motorcycle backfire and ignored it.
Jackie did say that the Harleys had been doing that a lot.
He would not have ignored it after he heard two more and realized they were rifle shots. That is absurd. Not a single person said they forgot about the first shot, which Mary Woodward described as a horrible ear shattering noise, after hearing other shots and seeing what was happening. [hint: Zeon was humoring you in suggesting that his camera may have made him go deaf)
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He would not have ignored it after he heard two more and realized they were rifle shots. That is absurd. Not a single person said they forgot about the first shot, which Mary Woodward described as a horrible ear shattering noise, after hearing other shots and seeing what was happening. [hint: Zeon was humoring you in suggesting that his camera may have made him go deaf)
How can a person forget something they hadn't noticed five seconds before something they did notice?
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How can a person forget something they hadn't noticed five seconds before something they did notice?
Cue Frank Gorshin/"The Riddler".
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How can a person forget something they hadn't noticed five seconds before something they did notice?
How can she have not noticed the first shot? She said she did notice it. She counted three shots. The first horrible ear-shattering noise followed by two more shots. Are you suggesting that there was a shot at z124 that she did not notice but counted three shots after? That's four shots.
You seem to be making up excuses for witnesses missing this shot that you made up at z124.
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How can she have not noticed the first shot? She said she did notice it. She counted three shots. The first horrible ear-shattering noise followed by two more shots. Are you suggesting that there was a shot at z124 that she did not notice but counted three shots after? That's four shots.
She?
I thought we were talking about Betzner.
My bad.
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She?
I thought we were talking about Betzner.
My bad.
I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread. But the point is the same. The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd. They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).
Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner). Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred. Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?
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I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread. But the point is the same. The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd. They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).
Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner). Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred. Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?
Per Tina Towner in her book:
I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.
If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.
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Per Tina Towner in her book:
I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.
If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.
Good point, Charles.
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Per Tina Towner in her book:
I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.
If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.
2 seconds is a very long time. With respect to timing, how does the End of the Towner Film match up with the Robert Croft photo?
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Two seconds is a very long time. With respect to timing, how does the end of the Towner film match up with the Robert Croft photo?
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
She said, "a second or two, if that."
-- Tom
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2 seconds is a very long time. With respect to timing, how does the End of the Towner Film match up with the Robert Croft photo?
According to Dale Myers’ synchronization of the films, the end of the Towner film segment was 10.66 seconds before the head shot at Z313; and the beginning of the Zapruder film was 9.87 seconds before Z313. So less than 1 second (0.79 second) elapsed between the two films.
The Robert Croft photo was taken at about Z161. And according to Myers, Z160 is 8.36 seconds before Z313. Subtract 0.05 seconds for one frame to equate the time to get to Z161 and we have 8.31 seconds before Z313. Subtract 8.31 from 10.66 equals 2.35 seconds elapsed time between the end of the Towner film segment and Croft’s photo (if I did all of that correctly).
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According to Dale Myers’ synchronization of the films, the end of the Towner film segment was 10.66 seconds before the head shot at Z313; and the beginning of the Zapruder film was 9.87 seconds before Z313. So less than 1 second (0.79 second) elapsed between the two films.
The Robert Croft photo was taken at about Z161. And according to Myers, Z160 is 8.36 seconds before Z313. Subtract 0.05 seconds for one frame to equate the time to get to Z161 and we have 8.31 seconds before Z313. Subtract 8.31 from 10.66 equals 2.35 seconds elapsed time between the end of the Towner film segment and Croft’s photo (if I did all of that correctly).
Roughly 2.3 seconds between the end of the Towner Film and the Croft Photo? I have a problem with that extended time spacing. The Croft Photo shows almost the end of the short wall that those people were sitting on. A sidewalk runs down the other side of that wall. That sidewalk ends at the Tall Stone Monument. This tall stone monument is close to the RL Thornton sign. The Tall Stone Monument and the RL Thornton Sign are landmarks/bookends to keep in mind. The Towner Film shows the JFK Limo passing by the stone monument. The stone monument is then completely out of the Towner film. The JFK Theorist has posted 3 different versions of the Towner Film on YOU TUBE. The 3rd version is the Sixth Floor Museum copy with between the sprocket holes. I recommend examining that copy of Towner Film. A shot was allegedly fired at about the point where the JFK Limo passes by the Thornton sign. This is also the point where the Willis girl pulls up/stops running. I believe 2.3 seconds between the Towner/Croft images is way too long. Originally, the elapsed time for ALL 3 shots was 6 seconds. Now we have 2 images showing the JFK Limo reaching the Thornton sign with an alleged time gap between the 2 images being 2.3 seconds? Really? If this extended 2.3 second time gap is accurate, we once again have JFK Assassination Images in conflict. What new?
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Roughly 2.3 seconds between the end of the Towner Film and the Croft Photo? I have a problem with that extended time spacing. The Croft Photo shows almost the end of the short wall that those people were sitting on. A sidewalk runs down the other side of that wall. That sidewalk ends at the Tall Stone Monument. This tall stone monument is close to the RL Thornton sign. The Tall Stone Monument and the RL Thornton Sign are landmarks/bookends to keep in mind. The Towner Film shows the JFK Limo passing by the stone monument. The stone monument is then completely out of the Towner film. The JFK Theorist has posted 3 different versions of the Towner Film on YOU TUBE. The 3rd version is the Sixth Floor Museum copy with between the sprocket holes. I recommend examining that copy of Towner Film. A shot was allegedly fired at about the point where the JFK Limo passes by the Thornton sign. This is also the point where the Willis girl pulls up/stops running. I believe 2.3 seconds between the Towner/Croft images is way too long. Originally, the elapsed time for ALL 3 shots was 6 seconds. Now we have 2 images showing the JFK Limo reaching the Thornton sign with an alleged time gap between the 2 images being 2.3 seconds? Really? If this extended 2.3 second time gap is accurate, we once again have JFK Assassination Images in conflict. What new?
Take a look at the following image. It shows the location of the vehicles at about .05 seconds after Zapruder’s film segment begins. This would still be be less than a second after the Towner film segment ends. I have drawn a red line to depict Tina Towner’s angle to JFK. I have drawn a blue line to depict Croft’s angle to JFK.
(https://i.vgy.me/NUQCEm.jpg)
Please notice that in Tina Towner’s angle that the middle area of the background includes the east shelter of the north pergola. Please notice that in Croft’s angle that the TSBD is in the middle area of the background at that particular time (a little over 2 seconds before Croft actually took his photo). The pergola shelter is significantly past (aka: to the west of) the TSBD. Yet the two different backgrounds would be shown in a (hypothetical) photo from Tina and Croft that were taken at the exact same time. That effect caused by the two different points of view (aka: angles) is something that I think you need to take into account in your assessment. If you do, I think you might see that there really isn’t any conflict between the two images.
For what it is worth, I believe that I have read that at the average speed of the limo it would be traveling roughly one foot per Zapruder frame or roughly one car length per second.
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The image you posted depicting the area that the Croft Photo included is wrong. Based on that image, the Croft Photo should include the Tall Stone Monument at the end of the sidewalk extending down from the East Shelter. That tall stone monument is Not on the 3 different copies of the Croft Photo I looked at.
I prefer to address 1 issue at a time regarding the image you posted. I believe this image has other distance issues within it. Since we are talking about when a shot was possibly fired, distances between landmarks are critical.
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Per Tina Towner in her book:
I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.
If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.
Here is Tina Towner's last frame:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJqvrt6n/Tina_Towner_last_frame_before_shot1.jpg)
This is the position of JFK on Elm St. at that time. The sightline from Tina Towner to JFK goes through the motorcyclist's helmet which is between the east end of the pillar on the pergola and the darker pillar to the right side of the helmet:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5PfdHby/image.png)
In her Sixth Floor Oral History from 1996 she said the first shot occurred 4 or 5 maybe 6 seconds after she stopped filming - see the 1:14:40 point of the video:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tkZkgZF/image.png) (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/15771)
This is consistent with what she previously said she did between the time she stopped filming and the first shot, although her previous estimates of the time were 1 or 2 seconds or a few seconds.
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The image you posted depicting the area that the Croft Photo included is wrong. Based on that image, the Croft Photo should include the Tall Stone Monument at the end of the sidewalk extending down from the East Shelter. That tall stone monument is Not on the 3 different copies of the Croft Photo I looked at.
I prefer to address 1 issue at a time regarding the image you posted. I believe this image has other distance issues within it. Since we are talking about when a shot was possibly fired, distances between landmarks are critical.
Read my post again please. I DID NOT indicate that Croft’s angle was of the point in time when he took his photo. That was over 2-seconds later.
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:-*
Here is Tina Towner's last frame:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJqvrt6n/Tina_Towner_last_frame_before_shot1.jpg)
This is the position of JFK on Elm St. at that time. The sightline from Tina Towner to JFK goes through the motorcyclist's helmet which is between the east end of the pillar on the pergola and the darker pillar to the right side of the helmet:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5PfdHby/image.png)
In her Sixth Floor Oral History from 1996 she said the first shot occurred 4 or 5 maybe 6 seconds after she stopped filming - see the 1:14:40 point of the video:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tkZkgZF/image.png) (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/15771)
This is consistent with what she previously said she did between the time she stopped filming and the first shot, although her previous estimates of the time were 1 or 2 seconds or a few seconds.
I think you might be looking at the Towner frame incorrectly Andrew. I have outlined the door to the pergola shelter with yellow lines. This is well past the pillar that I think you are trying to align things to. Watch the Towner film and I think you will see that pillar disappear off the right side of the frames well before the film segments end.
As far as my diagram goes, it depicts the positions at almost a second after the Towner film ends. So back the limo up accordingly and you will see that things align close to what I showed.
(https://i.vgy.me/2TyeiM.jpg)
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Read my post again please. I DID NOT indicate that Croft’s angle was of the point in time when he took his photo. That was over 2-seconds later.
You're quibbling now. You previously stated that 2 seconds is ONLY about 2 CAR lengths. That image is incorrect with respect to the Croft camera cone. The Tall Stone Monument should be in the Croft Photo per that cone. And the RL Thornton sign WAS extremely close to the Tall Stone Monument. This is why they consistently have moved, removed, and relocated landmarks inside Dealey Plaza. Over time, living eyewitnesses and researchers lose track of what was where, and how these Dealey Plaza landmarks related to each other. We saw this Hocus-Pocus in action when Max Holland moved the JFK Limo location on Elm St. by confusing Tina Towner via missing signage on "The Lost Bullet". I would include Euins too, but I do Not believe he was near the Toni Glover pedestal as he claims.
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You're quibbling now. You previously stated that 2 seconds is ONLY about 2 CAR lengths. That image is incorrect with respect to the Croft camera cone. The Tall Stone Monument should be in the Croft Photo per that cone. And the RL Thornton sign WAS extremely close to the Tall Stone Monument. This is why they consistently have moved, removed, and relocated landmarks inside Dealey Plaza. Over time, living eyewitnesses and researchers lose track of what was where, and how these Dealey Plaza landmarks related to each other. We saw this Hocus-Pocus in action when Max Holland moved the JFK Limo location on Elm St. by confusing Tina Towner via missing signage on "The Lost Bullet". I would include Euins too, but I do Not believe he was near the Toni Glover pedestal as he claims.
Here’s the Croft photo:
(https://i.vgy.me/U5UGij.png)
It appears to me that the bend in the wall in the background is aligned pretty much with Jackie and JFK. And that it is also in the middle area of the photo.
Now, here is the same diagram I submitted before, that you thought was wrong, with some additions for the Croft photo position. I already said that the diagram depicts the limo position close to, but less than, a second after the end of the Towner film segment. That makes the limo position in the diagram already placed close to but slightly less that a car length past the point that it was when the Towner film segment ends. Therefore if we add one more car length we should be getting reasonably close to two car lengths past the position it was when the Towner film segment ends; which I already indicated equals roughly 2-seconds.
(https://i.vgy.me/Ywhhhq.jpg)
The black lines I added indicate the position of the limo, as I described above, and the angle of the Croft photo taken at the proper point in time. Notice that the bend in the wall is aligned with the position where Jackie and JFK would be seated in the limo. These diagrams are only rough estimates. You can quibble if you wish; but please keep in mind that these are only rough estimates.
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I do Not see the "bend in the wall" on the photo you posted.
You do know there are 2 walls there? (1) the long wall the people are seated on in the photo you posted, and (2) a short wall running between the Tall Stone Monument and the thick tree on the (R) in the photo you posted. This is why the Croft Cone is incorrect. Based on that cone, we should be seeing that Tall Stone Monument in the Croft photo. You walk down to the very end of that sidewalk that runs behind the wall the people are seated on, and you can reach out and touch that Stone Monument. We frequently hear about how "small" Dealey Plaza actually is. The Tall Stone Monument, the Wall people are seated on, and the RL Thornton Sign were close together. Of course, the RL Thorton sign was removed extremely early on. Over time, this destroys those Land Marks very short distance from one to the other. Either the Croft Cone is inaccurate, or the Croft photo has had the Tall Stone Monument removed/cropped from it. And Croft did have issues with the FBI concerning his film.
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I think you might be looking at the Towner frame incorrectly Andrew. I have outlined the door to the pergola shelter with yellow lines. This is well past the pillar that I think you are trying to align things to. Watch the Towner film and I think you will see that pillar disappear off the right side of the frames well before the film segments end.
As far as my diagram goes, it depicts the positions at almost a second after the Towner film ends. So back the limo up accordingly and you will see that things align close to what I showed.
(https://i.vgy.me/2TyeiM.jpg)
Yes. You are right. Trask's diagram does not have correct placement of the lane markers on Elm St. This should be more accurate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvBrmP4k/image.png)
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I do Not see the "bend in the wall" on the photo you posted.
You do know there are 2 walls there? (1) the long wall the people are seated on in the photo you posted, and (2) a short wall running between the Tall Stone Monument and the thick tree on the (R) in the photo you posted. This is why the Croft Cone is incorrect. Based on that cone, we should be seeing that Tall Stone Monument in the Croft photo. You walk down to the very end of that sidewalk that runs behind the wall the people are seated on, and you can reach out and touch that Stone Monument. We frequently hear about how "small" Dealey Plaza actually is. The Tall Stone Monument, the Wall people are seated on, and the RL Thornton Sign were close together. Of course, the RL Thorton sign was removed extremely early on. Over time, this destroys those Land Marks very short distance from one to the other. Either the Croft Cone is inaccurate, or the Croft photo has had the Tall Stone Monument removed/cropped from it. And Croft did have issues with the FBI concerning his film.
Here’s a diagram that shows the overhead view. The bend in the wall is circled by me in yellow. As you can see there are two bends in the wall with the very short very end section pointing directly away from Croft’s camera such that it isn’t seen.
(https://i.vgy.me/kdogNC.jpg)
In the Croft photo, we see the three people seated on the first bent section. I have drawn a vertical yellow line where I think that bent section begins (but I could be wrong because it isn’t very obvious). I think the fourth person is probably standing on the sidewalk. I believe the tall column is to the right, just out of the frame of that photo.
(https://i.vgy.me/7EyVR4.jpg)
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Per Tina Towner in her book:
I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.
If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.
That would put the 1st shot in the Z-150's
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That would put the 1st shot in the Z-150's
Or maybe the Z130s or Z140s depending on which part of her range you choose to believe. Frankly I think what she wrote in her book was probably more her genuine memory than was what she said later after being influenced by what other people thought. It is difficult to know how well she was able to judge the amount of time that elapsed after she stopped filming before the first shot sounded. So, I wouldn’t use her time estimate exclusively to try to determine the timing. But I do believe that she was able to say with confidence that the first shot sounded shortly after she stopped filming. Our memories are usually based on associations with something else that happened near that particular point in time. So associating the first shot and her end to filming that segment with each other is a good method for keeping her memory intact. And she has been totally consistent with that association.
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Here is Tina Towner's last frame:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJqvrt6n/Tina_Towner_last_frame_before_shot1.jpg)
...
In her Sixth Floor Oral History from 1996 she said the first shot occurred 4 or 5 maybe 6 seconds after she stopped filming - see the 1:14:40 point of the video:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tkZkgZF/image.png) (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/15771)
This is consistent with what she previously said she did between the time she stopped filming and the first shot, although her previous estimates of the time were 1 or 2 seconds or a few seconds.
In Trask's Pictures of the Pain (p. 217) Trask refers to Tina Towner's interview from an article in Teen Magazine, from June 19, 1968 in which she is quoted as saying that just after she stopped filming:
"Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in - the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard! At that time I had the least notion that it was a gun. The truth of the matter was that I thought it was a fire cracker."
So her memory is that she was beginning to leave after stopping her camera and before the first shot. The president had passed by and her father had walked farther down Elm St. so she was not intending to do any more filming. She doesn't elaborate on the time that took to begin to leave but I suggest that it is consistent with her estimate of 4-5 maybe 6 seconds after filming before the first shot. Even one or two seconds after she stopped filming does not fit a z124 first shot.
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In Trask's Pictures of the Pain (p. 217) Trask refers to Tina Towner's interview from an article in Teen Magazine, from June 19, 1968 in which she is quoted as saying that just after she stopped filming:
"Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in - the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard! At that time I had the least notion that it was a gun. The truth of the matter was that I thought it was a fire cracker."
So her memory is that she was beginning to leave after stopping her camera and before the first shot. The president had passed by and her father had walked farther down Elm St. so she was not intending to do any more filming. She doesn't elaborate on the time that took to begin to leave but I suggest that it is consistent with her estimate of 4-5 maybe 6 seconds after filming before the first shot. Even one or two seconds after she stopped filming does not fit a z124 first shot.
I agree with your last sentence. For what it’s worth, here is part of what Tina wrote in the epilogue of her book:
I noticed some minor discrepancies between what I recorded in the oral histories and what I now remember. Going through my files helped make some things more clear. If anyone wonders which is more accurate, I would lean toward my book rather than the oral history.
Frankly, I think that relating the time of the first shot to just after the end of her filming segment is something that she most likely would have been able to do accurately (because our memories are quite often based on those types of associations). However, I think that remembering exactly how much time might have elapsed between the end of her filming segment and the first shot would be much harder to gauge accurately. Therefore she gives a range of 1 or 2 seconds (if that much, aka: or less) in her book. That would place the first shot somewhere close to the Z133 time.
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I agree with your last sentence. For what it’s worth, here is part of what Tina wrote in the epilogue of her book:
I noticed some minor discrepancies between what I recorded in the oral histories and what I now remember. Going through my files helped make some things more clear. If anyone wonders which is more accurate, I would lean toward my book rather than the oral history.
Frankly, I think that relating the time of the first shot to just after the end of her filming segment is something that she most likely would have been able to do accurately (because our memories are quite often based on those types of associations). However, I think that remembering exactly how much time might have elapsed between the end of her filming segment and the first shot would be much harder to gauge accurately. Therefore she gives a range of 1 or 2 seconds (if that much, aka: or less) in her book. That would place the first shot somewhere close to the Z133 time.
If that was all the evidence as to when the first shot occurred, I might find your point persuasive, although 2 seconds would put it around z150.
But it isn't. We have Croft who said that the first shot occurred after he had rewound his camera to take another photo after taking his photo at z161. Betzner said that he took his z186 just before the first shot was heard. Mary Woodward said that JFK's last smile and wave began before the first shot. Witnesses between the lamp post and the Thornton sign said that JFK had just passed by where they were then the first shot sounded. Occupants of the VP car said that their car had just completed the turn when the first shot sounded - it is still turning when last seen in z180. Occupants of the VP Security car said the first shot occurred as they were completing the turn (along side the TSBD) - it is about there in z191 when last seen. Jane Berry, the 7th person west of the lamp post near the Thornton sign said that the first shot occurred as the President's car was passing by her.
So, if one tries to fit Tina Towner's recollection to the rest of the evidence, 4 seconds is a better fit than 2.
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Tina Towner - "Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in - the LOUDEST crack of a rifle I HAD EVER HEARD".
All of you are assuming Towner heard the Carcano Rifle being fired. Maybe she was hearing the sound of a Different gun/rifle being fired?
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Tina Towner - "Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in - the LOUDEST crack of a rifle I HAD EVER HEARD".
All of you are assuming Towner heard the Carcano Rifle being fired. Maybe she was hearing the sound of a Different gun/rifle being fired?
Others provide evidence of location of the rifle in the sixth floor SN. Dearie Cabell, upon hearing the first shot, looked straight up from where she was facing as her car (next behind the VP security car) entered the intersection and saw a pipe extending out of the sixth floor window. Three men on the floor below also identified the source as a rifle on the floor above them.
So unless you have evidence of a second rifle on the sixth floor other than the one found there, she heard Oswald’s MC.
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Others provide evidence of location of the rifle in the sixth floor SN. Dearie Cabell, upon hearing the first shot, looked straight up from where she was facing as her car (next behind the VP security car) entered the intersection and saw a pipe extending out of the sixth floor window. Three men on the floor below also identified the source as a rifle on the floor above them.
So unless you have evidence of a second rifle on the sixth floor other than the one found there, she heard Oswald’s MC.
Towner said, "...the LOUDEST crack of a rifle I had ever heard". That does Not match up with the sound of a Carcano being fired. Even an M-80 firecracker, (which many of us have used), is far louder than a carcano rifle or a run-of-the-mill firecracker. I believe that when Towner says, "...LOUDEST crack of a rifle I had ever heard", DQ's her describing a carcano or a standard fire cracker.
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Towner said, "...the LOUDEST crack of a rifle I had ever heard". That does Not match up with the sound of a Carcano being fired. Even an M-80 firecracker, (which many of us have used), is far louder than a carcano rifle or a run-of-the-mill firecracker. I believe that when Towner says, "...LOUDEST crack of a rifle I had ever heard", DQ's her describing a carcano or a standard fire cracker.
You're really amazing, you know that? So rather than just use common sense and focus on the LOUD part of Towner's quote, you are straining yourself into a pretzel to add qualifiers to it, and insist that she's somehow "wrong" and heard a "different rifle." There is absolutely ZERO evidence for a second gun having been fired in Dealey Plaza.
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You're really amazing, you know that? So rather than just use common sense and focus on the LOUD part of Towner's quote, you are straining yourself into a pretzel to add qualifiers to it, and insist that she's somehow "wrong" and heard a "different rifle." There is absolutely ZERO evidence for a second gun having been fired in Dealey Plaza.
Have you heard the sound a fired carcano makes? It is nowhere close to, "....LOUDEST Crack of a rifle I had ever heard". And who said anything about, "she's somehow WRONG"? She is describing what she heard. She does not tie a carcano to that sound she heard/described. And, she is describing the 1st shot. The now alleged "early" shot that hit the traffic signal support beam. And in order to support this "early" shot, Towner even moved the position of the JFK Limo on Elm St. There is much more here than merely a "loud shot".
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Have you heard the sound a fired carcano makes? It is nowhere close to, "....LOUDEST Crack of a rifle I had ever heard". And who said anything about, "she's somehow WRONG"? She is describing what she heard. She does not tie a carcano to that sound she heard/described. And, she is describing the 1st shot. The now alleged "early" shot that hit the traffic signal support beam. And in order to support this "early" shot, Towner even moved the position of the JFK Limo on Elm St. There is much more here than merely a "loud shot".
You're simply making things up. Tina Towner was 13 YEARS OLD when President Kennedy was assassinated. Do you honestly expect her to be able to distinguish the variable loudness between different kinds of rifles? And how can you possibly conclude from her statement that she heard a DIFFERENT rifle? This is lunacy.
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You're simply making things up. Tina Towner was 13 YEARS OLD when President Kennedy was assassinated. Do you honestly expect her to be able to distinguish the variable loudness between different kinds of rifles? And how can you possibly conclude from her statement that she heard a DIFFERENT rifle? This is lunacy.
You're discrediting your own witness. Shrewd!
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You're discrediting your own witness. Shrewd!
Nope. Rather, your empty speculation is discredited. Your personal opinion about the loudness of a specific rifle has absolutely nothing to do with the specific conditions under which Towner was an ear witness to the shooting. You are advancing an evidence-free appeal to authority.
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Nope. Rather, your empty speculation is discredited. Your personal opinion about the loudness of a specific rifle has absolutely nothing to do with the specific conditions under which Towner was an ear witness to the shooting. You are advancing an evidence-free appeal to authority.
She said that the 1st shot was the, "LOUDEST Crack of a rifle I had ever heard". This means that any following shots/cracks had to of been NOT as loud. Different weapons, different "Cracks", different volume levels.
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She said that the 1st shot was the, "LOUDEST Crack of a rifle I had ever heard". This means that any following shots/cracks had to of been NOT as loud. Different weapons, different "Cracks", different volume levels.
Wrong again. It only means what TOWNER thought it means, and she absolutely DID NOT say that the "following shots/cracks" were different. You are making things up, again, and injecting your personal OPINION when it is totally uncalled for.
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Wrong again. It only means what TOWNER thought it means, and she absolutely DID NOT say that the "following shots/cracks" were different. You are making things up, again, and injecting your personal OPINION when it is totally uncalled for.
Well Clint Hill said the head shot sounded different so it's very possible.
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Well Clint Hill said the head shot sounded different so it's very possible.
Exactly! The WC Attorney knew what the goal was. 1 Shooter, 3 shots max. That's why he did not delve into Towner's, "LOUDEST Crack of a rifle I had EVER heard". To Towner's ear, that 1st shot stood out. Stood ALONE.
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Exactly! The WC Attorney knew what the goal was. 1 Shooter, 3 shots max. That's why he did not delve into Towner's, "LOUDEST Crack of a rifle I had EVER heard". To Towner's ear, that 1st shot stood out. Stood ALONE.
If it was a different rifle in a different location other than the sixth floor SE window, it sure fooled all of the three men directly below. Harold Norman said he heard three bolt-action sounds and shells hitting the floor. Actual evidence is always better than speculation.
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Wrong again. It only means what TOWNER thought it means, and she absolutely DID NOT say that the "following shots/cracks" were different. You are making things up, again, and injecting your personal OPINION when it is totally uncalled for.
Towner said this: "As the first gunshot sounded I looked up at the buildings thinking somebody was throwing firecrackers out the window..but only a split second. I only had a split second before some stranger and I still don't know who it was pulled me down to the ground..."
And: "You were close to the gunshots. What did you think?
Towner: "I thought at first I thought it was firecrackers. I thought somebody was throwing firecrackers out of a window and I looked up for a split second and wasn't looking for anything specific but somebody pulled me down to the ground by my arm..a stranger and so I laid there on the ground and when he let go of my arm I wish I knew who this person was but I don't when he let go of my arm it was safe to get up and I reconnected with my parents...."
So she's standing and hears a shot. Then is pulled to the ground when/where she hears two more. It's obvious, isn't it?, that the sounds/volume would be different in those two different positions. Standing up vs. laying on the ground. Although, as you point out (and the interview above says), she didn't say this.
Link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAESmcusUcI&t=2s
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Towner said this: "As the first gunshot sounded I looked up at the buildings thinking somebody was throwing firecrackers out the window but only a split second I only had a split second before some stranger and I still don't know who it was pulled me down to the ground..."
And: "You were close to the gunshots. What did you think?
Towner: "I thought at first I thought it was firecrackers. I thought somebody was throwing firecrackers out of a window and I looked up for a split second and wasn't looking for anything specific but somebody pulled me down to the ground by my arm..a stranger and so I laid there on the ground and when he let go of my arm I wish I knew who this person was but I don't when he let go of my arm it was safe to get up and I reconnected with my parents...."
So she's standing and hears a shot. Then is pulled to the ground when/where she hears two more. It's obvious, isn't it?, that the sounds/volume would be different in those two different positions. Standing up vs. laying on the ground. Although, as you point out (and the interview above says), she didn't say this.
Link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAESmcusUcI&t=2s
What about Max Holland claiming the elapsed firing time is 11+ seconds? Are you claiming that Towner was on the ground for somewhere close to 10 seconds? And heard shots 2 & 3 from that position? That is a very long time to be on the ground. Especially with her Mom right there.
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What about Max Holland['s] claiming the elapsed firing time was 11+ seconds?
Dear Sonderführer Storing,
Why are you obsessed with Max Holland?
-- Tom
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Towner said this: "As the first gunshot sounded I looked up at the buildings thinking somebody was throwing firecrackers out the window but only a split second I only had a split second before some stranger and I still don't know who it was pulled me down to the ground..."
And: "You were close to the gunshots. What did you think?
Towner: "I thought at first I thought it was firecrackers. I thought somebody was throwing firecrackers out of a window and I looked up for a split second and wasn't looking for anything specific but somebody pulled me down to the ground by my arm..a stranger and so I laid there on the ground and when he let go of my arm I wish I knew who this person was but I don't when he let go of my arm it was safe to get up and I reconnected with my parents...."
So she's standing and hears a shot. Then is pulled to the ground when/where she hears two more. It's obvious, isn't it?, that the sounds/volume would be different in those two different positions. Standing up vs. laying on the ground. Although, as you point out (and the interview above says), she didn't say this.
Link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAESmcusUcI&t=2s
Steve, here is a frame from Dorman’s film that shows Tina Towner (circled in yellow) standing and looking down Elm Street in the direction of the Limo. (Edit: Tina’s hair appears to be flying outwards in all directions as if she had just spun her head around, perhaps from the TSBD to the limo.) This Dorman frame was taken just before Z313. It appears to me that Tina must have been pulled down immediately after the first shot and perhaps held down for a few seconds but had gotten back up by the time of the third shot at Z313. I can imagine that being held down for only a couple of seconds might seem like an eternity to a 13-year old under those circumstances.
(https://i.vgy.me/lUCdEK.jpg)
By the way, the crouching figure circled in green appears (to me) to be Brennan looking up towards the sniper’s nest.
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Steve, here is a frame from Dorman’s film that shows Tina Towner (circled in yellow) standing and looking down Elm Street in the direction of the Limo. (Edit: Tina’s hair appears to be flying outwards in all directions as if she had just spun her head around, perhaps from the TSBD to the limo.) This Dorman frame was taken just before Z313. It appears to me that Tina must have been pulled down immediately after the first shot and perhaps held down for a few seconds but had gotten back up by the time of the third shot at Z313. I can imagine that being held down for only a couple of seconds might seem like an eternity to a 13-year old under those circumstances.
(https://i.vgy.me/lUCdEK.jpg)
By the way, the crouching figure circled in green appears (to me) to be Brennan looking up towards the sniper’s nest.
I do Not see the folding chair that was sitting on the curb/close to the Towner's. The absence of that chair being on the curb, or anyone carrying that chair, warrants being factored into the time stamping of this Dorman still frame.
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I do Not see the folding chair that was sitting on the curb/close to the Towner's. The absence of that chair being on the curb, or anyone carrying that chair, warrants being factored into the time stamping of this Dorman still frame.
It’s there but difficult to discern due to the shadow. I circled it in yellow.
(https://i.vgy.me/OGiSug.jpg)
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It’s there but difficult to discern due to the shadow. I circled it in yellow.
(https://i.vgy.me/OGiSug.jpg)
How did the idea of a "folding chair" come into this thread?
Did Tina Towner mention it at some point during the past sixty-two years?
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Steve, here is a frame from Dorman’s film that shows Tina Towner (circled in yellow) standing and looking down Elm Street in the direction of the Limo. (Edit: Tina’s hair appears to be flying outwards in all directions as if she had just spun her head around, perhaps from the TSBD to the limo.) This Dorman frame was taken just before Z313. It appears to me that Tina must have been pulled down immediately after the first shot and perhaps held down for a few seconds but had gotten back up by the time of the third shot at Z313. I can imagine that being held down for only a couple of seconds might seem like an eternity to a 13-year old under those circumstances.
(https://i.vgy.me/lUCdEK.jpg)
By the way, the crouching figure circled in green appears (to me) to be Brennan looking up towards the sniper’s nest.
Towner said she was pulled to the ground after Shot #1 was fired. Her film shows the JFK Limo having passed the sidewalk that runs down from the (E) Pergola Shelter. If her story is true, it rules out Shot #1 being fired extremely early. Her story/film also disproves the 11+ seconds elapsed firing time for the 3 shots from the sniper's nest.
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How did the idea of a "folding chair" come into this thread?
Did Tina Towner mention it at some point during the past sixty-two years?
It’s entirely irrelevant. But Royell brought it up as an excuse to discount the timing of the Dorman frame. I think that I remember Tina mentioning the folding stool in her book. But it was just something that she noticed when viewing the Dorman film.
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It’s entirely irrelevant. But Royell brought it up as an excuse to discount the timing of the frame
Did he create the idea of a folding chair out of thin air?
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Did he create the idea of a folding chair out of thin air?
No, it can clearly be seen in the Dorman film. It’s just the shadow that obscures it in the relevant frame. Royell’s objections don’t always make sense to me either.
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No, it can clearly be seen in the Dorman film. It’s just the shadow that obscures it in the relevant frame. Royell’s objections don’t always make sense to me either.
Okay, now I understand.
Thanks.
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Towner said she was pulled to the ground after Shot #1 was fired. Her film shows the JFK Limo having passed the sidewalk that runs down from the (E) Pergola Shelter. If her story is true, it rules out Shot #1 being fired extremely early. Her story/film also disproves the 11+ seconds elapsed firing time for the 3 shots from the sniper's nest.
That’s how it appears from Tina’s angle. A line of sight perpendicular to the travel on Elm Street at that point would show it before JFK gets to the sidewalk entrance.
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The Tina Towner story along with her film disproves the very early 1st shot.
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The Tina Towner story along with her film disproves the very early 1st shot.
What's your definition of "very early"?
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That’s how it appears from Tina’s angle. A line of sight perpendicular to the travel on Elm Street at that point would show it before JFK gets to the sidewalk entrance.
Compare the final frames of the Towner film that show the JFK Limo vs the Zapruder Film frame where the JFK Limo pops onto the film. You can also use the physical position of Willis to figure out the position of the JFK Limo on Elm St.
That sidewalk is extremely close to the Tall Monument. And the tall monument is very close to the Island. Just look at the Darnell Film showing Baker's Motorcycle. Officer Baker quickly went from his motorcycle to running across the island. This tells you how close all of these landmarks are to each other. You put the JFK Limo on the (E) side of the sidewalk and it is not even close to completing the turn onto Elm.
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What's your definition of "very early"?
Putting the JFK Limo (E) of the sidewalk is getting close to the Island. That's "very early" for a 1st shot.
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Putting the JFK limo east of the sidewalk is getting close to the Island. That's "very early" for a 1st shot.
What do you mean by "east of the sidewalk" and "close to the island"?
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Compare the final frames of the Towner film that show the JFK Limo vs the Zapruder Film frame where the JFK Limo pops onto the film. You can also use the physical position of Willis to figure out the position of the JFK Limo on Elm St.
That sidewalk is extremely close to the Tall Monument. And the tall monument is very close to the Island. Just look at the Darnell Film showing Baker's Motorcycle. Officer Baker quickly went from his motorcycle to running across the island. This tells you how close all of these landmarks are to each other. You put the JFK Limo on the (E) side of the sidewalk and it is not even close to completing the turn onto Elm.
Going from memory only, the Willis4 photo was taken at about Z137. Which is very close to the beginning of the Zapruder film segment (at Z133). The Willis4 photo was taken at an angle close to perpendicular to the line of travel of the limo. It shows the tall pillar monument, and that JFK has not reached that monument yet. Tina Towner’s film ends close to 1-second before the Willis4 photo was taken. Yet the angle of Tina Towner to the limo makes it look like JFK had already passed the tall monument. Plot the various positions of the limo and photographers on an overhead map view of Dealey Plaza. Don Roberdeau’s map will suffice for this. The geometry of the angles and resulting backgrounds beyond the limo should become apparent. The understanding of this effect is critical if you want to try to understand what the photographic record actually shows. If you want to contend that there is an unexplained problem with the photographic record, then please take this effect into consideration.
(https://i.vgy.me/gdW4pz.jpg)
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Going from memory only, the Willis4 photo was taken at about Z137. Which is very close to the beginning of the Zapruder film segment (at Z133). The Willis4 photo was taken at an angle close to perpendicular to the line of travel of the limo. It shows the tall pillar monument, and that JFK has not reached that monument yet. Tina Towner’s film ends close to 1-second before the Willis4 photo was taken. Yet the angle of Tina Towner to the limo makes it look like JFK had already passed the tall monument. Plot the various positions of the limo and photographers on an overhead map view of Dealey Plaza. Don Roberdeau’s map will suffice for this. The geometry of the angles and resulting backgrounds beyond the limo should become apparent. The understanding of this effect is critical if you want to try to understand what the photographic record actually shows. If you want to contend that there is an unexplained problem with the photographic record, then please take this effect into consideration. Towner claims to have been pulled to the ground after she Stopped filming. Her film shows she Stopped filming and by her account was pulled down onto the ground, WELL AFTER this alleged early shot was fired.
(https://i.vgy.me/gdW4pz.jpg)
I am not sure what Towner Film you are looking at. Please use the You Tube posting done by "The JFK Theorist". He provides the Sixth Floor Museum copy of the Towner Film. Very clear and between the sprocket holes. On THAT copy of the Towner Film, you can see the 5th column of the pergola (from R-L). The Tall Monument is completely out of the film at this point. Again, you put the JFK Limo on the (E) side of the sidewalk and you are very close to the Island that Officer Baker ran across as he headed for the TSBD. You are very close to the Elm St Ext. You are forgetting how SMALL Dealey Plaza physically is, along with the extended length of the JFK Limo.
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I am not sure what Towner Film you are looking at. Please use the You Tube posting done by "The JFK Theorist". He provides the Sixth Floor Museum copy of the Towner Film. Very clear and between the sprocket holes. On THAT copy of the Towner Film, you can see the 5th column of the pergola (from R-L). The Tall Monument is completely out of the film at this point. Again, you put the JFK Limo on the (E) side of the sidewalk and you are very close to the Island that Officer Baker ran across as he headed for the TSBD. You are very close to the Elm St Ext. You are forgetting how SMALL Dealey Plaza physically is, along with the extended length of the JFK Limo.
Here’s the overhead map view that shows both Tina Towner’s line of sight and Willis’ line of sight. It’s all spelled out for you now.
(https://i.vgy.me/TLT1qr.jpg)
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Here’s the overhead map view that shows both Tina Towner’s line of sight and Willis’ line of sight. It’s all spelled out for you now.
(https://i.vgy.me/TLT1qr.jpg)
You claim that the JFK Limo is (E) of the sidewalk. Yet, the Towner Film shows the JFK Limo and the Tall Monument is completely absent from those same Towner Film frames. There is No Way the Limo can allegedly be (E) of the sidewalk and Not include images of the Tall Monument. If you are standing at the bottom of the sidewalk that runs down from the (E) Pergola Shelter, you can almost reach out and touch that Tall Monument. This is how physically close the Tall Monument is to that sidewalk.
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You claim that the JFK Limo is (E) of the sidewalk. Yet, the Towner Film shows the JFK Limo and the Tall Monument is completely absent from those same Towner Film frames. There is No Way the Limo can allegedly be (E) of the sidewalk and Not include images of the Tall Monument. If you are standing at the bottom of the sidewalk that runs down from the (E) Pergola Shelter, you can almost reach out and touch that Tall Monument. This is how physically close the Tall Monument is to that sidewalk.
Watch Tina Towner’s film and you can see the Tall Monument right up until just before the final frames.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8zkNbjsu7X/ (https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8zkNbjsu7X/)
The tall monument disappears off of the right side of the film due to Tina’s panning motion from her right to left. The field of view of the camera Tina was using is roughly depicted in Mark Tyler’s animation by the yellow cone. Mark’s animation isn’t precise enough to show that the cone pans slightly more to Tina’s left such that, in the final frames, the tall monument has disappeared just slightly out of the field of view. But if you watch the video it is quite apparent. Notice that in the angle of the overhead view of the animation JFK has not reached the end of the pergola sidewalk yet but from Tina’s angle it seems that he has passed it. The overhead angle is what I am describing when saying JFK has not yet reached the end of that sidewalk.
(https://i.vgy.me/FvRABT.png)
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Watch Tina Towner’s film and you can see the Tall Monument right up until just before the final frames.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8zkNbjsu7X/ (https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8zkNbjsu7X/)
The tall monument disappears off of the right side of the film due to Tina’s panning motion from her right to left. The field of view of the camera Tina was using is roughly depicted in Mark Tyler’s animation by the yellow cone. Mark’s animation isn’t precise enough to show that the cone pans slightly more to Tina’s left such that, in the final frames, the tall monument has disappeared just slightly out of the field of view. But if you watch the video it is quite apparent. Notice that in the angle of the overhead view of the animation JFK has not reached the end of the pergola sidewalk yet but from Tina’s angle it seems that he has passed it. The overhead angle is what I am describing when saying JFK has not yet reached the end of that sidewalk.
(https://i.vgy.me/FvRABT.png)
Why would I STOP watching the Towner film before the final frames? Towner claimed she heard the 1st shot After she stopped filming. It was at this point she was pulled down onto the ground. The final frames of the Towner Film Do NOT show the tall monument. These final frames do show the JFK Limo. This proves the position of the JFK Limo is NOT (E) of the sidewalk on those final frames. You continue posting the Tyler "animation". That is exactly what it is. "Animation". I prefer to rely on the real thing. The actual Towner Film. Based on that "animation", you have to place the JFK Limo well inside 3rd lane to remove the tall monument from the Towner Film. The placement of the JFK Limo in this lane defies every other image of the JFK Limo on Elm St.
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Why would I STOP watching the Towner film before the final frames? Towner claimed she heard the 1st shot After she stopped filming. It was at this point she was pulled down onto the ground. The final frames of the Towner Film Do NOT show the tall monument. These final frames do show the JFK Limo. This proves the position of the JFK Limo is NOT (E) of the sidewalk on those final frames. You continue posting the Tyler "animation". That is exactly what it is. "Animation". I prefer to rely on the real thing. The actual Towner Film. Based on that "animation", you have to place the JFK Limo well inside 3rd lane to remove the tall monument from the Towner Film. The placement of the JFK Limo in this lane defies every other image of the JFK Limo on Elm St.
As far as I am concerned, this conversation is about different points of view. JFK appears to have already passed by the monument from Tina Towner’s camera’s point of view. However, the overhead view shows that JFK has not yet reached the tall monument. The overhead view also shows that Tina’s camera’s field of view (yellow cone) has already panned past the tall monument; which explains why her point of view is different than the overhead point of view. This isn’t some mysterious phenomenon or rocket science. I think most folks can understand this concept.
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As far as I am concerned, this conversation is about different points of view. JFK appears to have already passed by the monument from Tina Towner’s camera’s point of view. However, the overhead view shows that JFK has not yet reached the tall monument. The overhead view also shows that Tina’s camera’s field of view (yellow cone) has already panned past the tall monument; which explains why her point of view is different than the overhead point of view. This isn’t some mysterious phenomenon or rocket science. I think most folks can understand this concept.
"Overhead View"? What specific "Overhead View" are you claiming shows JFK has, "...not yet reached the tall monument"? Are you referring to the Mark Tyler ANIMATION? If this is the case, you are choosing a cartoon illustrating the "opinion" of 1 person vs the actual filming of the JFK Limo by Tina Towner on 11/22/63. You do understand this, correct?
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"Overhead View"? What specific "Overhead View" are you claiming shows JFK has, "...not yet reached the tall monument"? Are you referring to the Mark Tyler ANIMATION? If this is the case, you are choosing a cartoon illustrating the "opinion" of 1 person vs the actual filming of the JFK Limo by Tina Towner on 11/22/63. You do understand this, correct?
The animation is based on the photographic record. It’s confirmed by that record, including the Towner images as I have clearly demonstrated.
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The animation is based on the photographic record. It’s confirmed by that record, including the Towner images as I have clearly demonstrated.
Charles, you're wasting your time with Royell Storing, who believes the entire film and photo record of the assassination has been doctored, faked and altered. It's absurd.
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Charles, you're wasting your time with Royell Storing, who believes the entire film and photo record of the assassination has been doctored, faked and altered. It's absurd.
I am firmly standing behind the The Towner, "...film and photo record of the assassination....". Time for you to put the Christmas, "Who Hit John", away.
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The animation is based on the photographic record. It’s confirmed by that record, including the Towner images as I have clearly demonstrated.
Towner said she stopped filming after the 1st shot. Her Film shows the JFK Limo and the hood of the Queen Mary behind it, but No trace of the TALL Monument in the background. This means the JFK Limo was (W) of the sidewalk that runs down from the (E) Pergola Shelter at this point in time. Per the account of Tina Towner, the alleged "early" 1st shot never happened.
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Towner said she stopped filming after the 1st shot. Her Film shows the JFK Limo and the hood of the Queen Mary behind it, but No trace of the TALL Monument in the background. This means the JFK Limo was (W) of the sidewalk that runs down from the (E) Pergola Shelter at this point in time. Per the account of Tina Towner, the alleged "early" 1st shot never happened.
I think you meant that she stopped filming before the first shot. To figure out where JFK is on Elm St. all you need to do is see where the sightline from the camera through JFK extends to and then plot that sightline on a map of Dealey Plaza:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvBrmP4k/image.png)
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I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread. But the point is the same. The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd. They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).
Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner). Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred. Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."
How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?
Bump regarding the Towner 1st shot claim. The Towner " 4-6 seconds" after she Stopped Filming totally destroys a very early 1st shot. She clearly was still filming when the JFK Limo was (W) of the sidewalk/Tall Monument.
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I think you meant that she stopped filming before the first shot. To figure out where JFK is on Elm St. all you need to do is see where the sightline from the camera through JFK extends to and then plot that sightline on a map of Dealey Plaza:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvBrmP4k/image.png)
The above would be perfect if Towner was looking through a monocular. And then she was panning too.
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The above would be perfect if Towner was looking through a monocular. And then she was panning too.
I think her camera had only one lens. She wasn't filming through binoculars. What does panning have to do with the position of JFK in the last frame?
If Tina Towner was right that the first shot occurred even 3 or 4 seconds after she stopped filming then there was no early first shot miss.
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I think her camera had only one lens. She wasn't filming through binoculars. What does panning have to do with the position of JFK in the last frame?
If Tina Towner was right that the first shot occurred even 3 or 4 seconds after she stopped filming then there was no early first shot miss.
Towner panning would impact the Line-Of-Sight (LOS). You're visual aid shows her LOS being straight lined.
I agree. Not only was there, "...no early first shot miss", there was no early first shot period.
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Towner panning would impact the Line-Of-Sight (LOS). You're visual aid shows her LOS being straight lined.
??
A frame is exposed for 1/40th of a second. If, during that 1/40th of a second the camera keeps the moving limo in the same position by panning, the background will be blurred and the limo will be sharp. But in Towner’s last frame, the moving vehicles are blurred and the background is sharp, which means there was minimal panning of the camera.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJqvrt6n/Tina_Towner_last_frame_before_shot1.jpg)
In any event, the movement of the car during the 25 ms exposure is less than 6 inches.
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How do we know that Rosemary Willis, in her conscious reaction to Oswald's first, missing everything shot at "Z-124," [SNIP]
This is the kind of abject silliness that WC apologists have to peddle to try to make their theory work.
A gunman firing at "Z-124" (aka pseudo Z124) would have been shooting at an incredibly awkward downward angle, a supremely stupid shot to attempt. What Tom Graves is not telling you is that those who peddle this silly theory claim that the bullet hit the traffic signal’s support pole or guy rod, and that this is how the shot missed the entire gigantic limousine (it was 21 feet long and 6.6 feet wide).
WC apologists must assume that their "first shot" missed the entire limo, so they have to come up with these bizarre theories to explain how a sixth-floor gunman could have missed such a massive target from such a short distance. At any point before Z166, the limo would have been no more than 150 feet, or just 50 yards, from the sixth-floor window. Posner speculates that the bullet hit a branch of the oak tree. Others, such as Tom Graves, have their alleged lone gunman firing even earlier and somehow, someway hitting the guy rod or the support pole of the traffic light, in order to explain how he missed the entire limo.
It boggles the mind to think that any gunman in the sixth-floor window, even an inexperienced and subpar amateur such as Oswald, would have taken a shot when he would have had to fire at such an awkwardly sharp downward angle, and when the guy rod and support pole would have been close to his center of aim on the target.
How steep of a downward angle are we talking about for a shot fired at "Z124"? FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier told the WC that a shot fired at Z161, 37 frames after "Z124," would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees. Therefore, a shot fired at "Z124" would have required an even steeper downward angle—almost straight down. Ridiculous.
And then there is the problem of the trajectory of ricochet fragments from the traffic signal to the back of JFK’s head. In Z140, JFK is facing to his right while waving at the crowd. He is still facing to his right in Z142, and he is still doing so in Z160 (though not as much as in Z140). How could ricochet fragments from the traffic signal’s guy rod or support pole have struck JFK in the back of the head? They would have hit him on the right side of his head, possibly including the right side of his face, not on the back of his head.
Of course, never mind that atomic analysis of the paraffin cast of Oswald's right cheek shows he did not fire a rifle on 11/22/63. Never mind that considerable eyewitness testimony puts Oswald on the first and second floor of the building during the shooting. Never mind that VSA polygraph analysis of Oswald's statements to journalists while in police custody shows he was telling the truth when he said he didn't shoot anybody. Never mind that the only three Master-rated riflemen who did a rifle test with the actual alleged murder weapon utterly failed to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. And on and on we could go. Just never you mind.
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A gunman firing at "Z-124" (aka pseudo Z124) would have been shooting at an incredibly awkward downward angle, a supremely stupid shot to attempt.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
The awkwardness of the shot plus the rapid angular velocity of the limo is why he missed as badly as he did.
-- Tom
What Tom Graves is not telling you is that those who peddle this silly theory claim that the bullet hit the traffic signal’s support pole or guy rod, and that this is how the shot missed the entire gigantic limousine (it was 21 feet long and 6.6 feet wide).
Dear Comrade Griffith,
I never realized until now how ignorant, dishonest, or both you are.
Where have I said that Oswald's missing-everything shot at "Z-124" hit the traffic light's mast arm, guy rod (what guy rod?), or a pigeon sitting on top of it?
You're confusing Max Holland's hypothetical shot at "Z-107" with Roselle and Scearce's shot at "Z-124."
D'oh!
-- Tom
PS Did you know that a mark on the asphalt can be seen in one of the Secret Service photos taken from the Sniper's Nest window, and that it correlates with where the closest-to-JFK / missing-everything shot would have hit at "Z-124"?
And that a new mark can be seen on the limo's passenger's side in at least one photo that was taken of it at Parkland Hospital -- a mark that may have been caused by a swirling lump of asphalt kicked up by the bullet?