JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on November 22, 2025, 08:41:52 PM
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Jarrett Smith wants to know the answer to this crucial question:
WHEN-OH-WHEN DID CLINT HILL LEAP FROM THE SECRET SERVICE FOLLOW-UP CAR???
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Jarrett Smith wants to know the answer to this crucial question:
WHEN-OH-WHEN DID CLINT HILL LEAP FROM THE SECRET SERVICE FOLLOW-UP CAR???
Comrade, I know the answer Z-316
BTW, I watched an interview with Max Holland, and he is totally wrong about the first shot.
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Comrade, I know the answer Z-316
So, why did you ask?
BTW, I watched an interview with Max Holland, and he is totally wrong about the first shot.
Holland is probably wrong about its having been at "Z-107" -- it was most likely a second later at "Z-124".
He's spot-on, however, regarding the conscious reactions of at least three of the Secret Service agents in the follow-up car to Oswald's first, very early, missing-everything shot.
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Most of those SS Agents were hung over. The previous night they were hitting the hard stuff in a "Beatnik Joint" in Ft Worth. Chief Rowley's WC Testimony verifies this. The 11/22/63 SS Agents "reactions" can Not be relied on.
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Most of those SS Agents were hung over. The previous night they were hitting the hard stuff in a "Beatnik Joint" in Ft Worth. Chief Rowley's WC Testimony verifies this. The 11/22/63 SS Agents "reactions" can Not be relied on.
Which hung-over-ness, if true, may help to explain why "only" three of the eight Secret Service agents in the follow-up car consciously reacted to hearing Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124."
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I've always been disgusted with the SS's actions and non actions on Elm Street. As to the specific question asked, JFK was dead when Hill stepped off the running board on the follow up car. So, my answer is "some time between Z-313 and now."
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I've always been disgusted with the SS's actions and non actions on Elm Street. As to the specific question asked, JFK was dead when Hill stepped off the running board on the follow up car. So, my answer is "some time between Z-313 and now."
The "SS actions" are even more egregious with the elapsed firing time for all 3 shots now being extended to 11+ seconds. This means the POTUS was under active gun fire for 11+ seconds and the SS did absolutely nothing to defend him. 11+ seconds is a long time.
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The "SS actions" are even more egregious with the elapsed firing time for all 3 shots now being extended to 11+ seconds. This means the POTUS was under active gun fire for 11+ seconds and the SS did absolutely nothing to defend him. 11+ seconds is a long time.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Get it straight.
10.2 seconds, not "11 + seconds"
-- Tom
PS Do you think the Secret Service was part of the evil, evil, evil "Deep State Conspiracy"?
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Get it straight.
10.2 seconds, not "11 + seconds"
-- Tom
PS Do you think the Secret Service was part of the evil, evil, evil "Deep State Conspiracy"?
Comrade Graves,
It was 8.5 seconds
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He was even with the left front wheel of the follow-up car when Kennedy was hit in the head. So he was never close to saving him.
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It was 8.5 seconds
LOL!
Good one!
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Get it straight.
10.2 seconds, not "11 + seconds"
-- Tom
PS Do you think the Secret Service was part of the evil, evil, evil "Deep State Conspiracy"?
Have you watched the You Tube presentation by Max Holland? 11+ seconds is what he has been pushing and he is the guy that originated this "early shot" scenario. Same goes for Holland being the originator of Oswald standing erect when firing that early 1st shot Down through a 1/2 open window.
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He was even with the left front wheel of the follow-up car when Kennedy was hit in the head. So he was never close to saving him.
Hill was inches short of the left front wheel when Hickey fired his last shot of his accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots, ie at Z312.
Hill might have been in mid-air when Hickey fired the first shot of his auto burst, ie at say Z297 (if 6 shots) or Z303 (if 4 shots).
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Hill was inches short of the left front wheel when Hickey fired his last shot of his accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots, ie at Z312.
Hill might have been in mid-air when Hickey fired the first shot of his auto burst, ie at say Z297 (if 6 shots) or Z303 (if 4 shots).
The above is based on the Zapruder Film. As is Always the case, "Consider the source".
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Have you watched the You Tube presentation by Max Holland? 11+ seconds is what he has been pushing and he is the guy that originated this "early shot" scenario. Same goes for Holland being the originator of Oswald standing erect when firing that early 1st shot Down through a 1/2 open window.
Dear World-Famous Comrade Storing,
Why are you obsessed with Holland's probably incorrect theory when, in fact, Oswald's first, missing-everything shot was more likely at "Z-124," i.e., a second later than Holland's "Z-107"?
-- Tom
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The above is based on the Zapruder Film. As is Always the case, "Consider the source".
The Z312 timing of Hickey's last shot is of course based on Zapruder footage.
But the position of Hill just short of the center of the front wheel at Z312 is based on Bronson footage mainly.
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Dear World-Famous Comrade Storing,
Why are you obsessed with Holland's probably incorrect theory when, in fact, Oswald's first, missing-everything shot was more likely at "Z-124," i.e., a second later than Holland's "Z-107"?
-- Tom
What bothers me is the general acceptance by the JFK Assassination Research Community of the Holland "Theory" without any serious push back. A major part of this is due to it being broadcast world wide by National Geographic. This is the same thing we saw transpire with CBS, NBC, ABC, and PBS doing likewise with the WC Whitewash during the 60's and 70's. Anybody bucking this "rip tide" gets their appearances/opinions Black Balled. And that translates into $$. What we are seeing with Holland's half baked theories is the JFK Assassination Research Community simply "going with the flow". Anybody doing the deep dive research and revealing the Holland Baloney for what it is, is soon preaching to a congregation of 1. And this media generated riptide includes the famed Sixth Floor Museum too.
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What bothers me is the general acceptance by the JFK Assassination Research Community of the Holland "Theory" without any serious push back. A major part of this is due to it being broadcast world wide by National Geographic. This is the same thing we saw transpire with CBS, NBC, ABC, and PBS doing likewise with the WC Whitewash during the 60's and 70's. Anybody bucking this "rip tide" gets their appearances/opinions Black Balled. And that translates into $$. What we are seeing with Holland's half baked theories is the JFK Assassination Research Community simply "going with the flow". Anybody doing the deep dive research and revealing the Holland Baloney for what it is, is soon preaching to a congregation of 1. And this media generated riptide includes the famed Sixth Floor Museum too.
Holland arrived at his partially right* theory in 2007 or so.
It's 2025, going on 2026 now.
Things change.
It's known as progress.
*That the first shot occurred before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
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What bothers me is the general acceptance by the JFK Assassination Research Community of the Holland "Theory" without any serious push back. A major part of this is due to it being broadcast world wide by National Geographic. This is the same thing we saw transpire with CBS, NBC, ABC, and PBS doing likewise with the WC Whitewash during the 60's and 70's. Anybody bucking this "rip tide" gets their appearances/opinions Black Balled. And that translates into $$. What we are seeing with Holland's half baked theories is the JFK Assassination Research Community simply "going with the flow". Anybody doing the deep dive research and revealing the Holland Baloney for what it is, is soon preaching to a congregation of 1. And this media generated riptide includes the famed Sixth Floor Museum too.
A lot of folks are eating Holland Baloney sandwiches...
Assuming a sixth floor lone gunman's first shot hit the traffic signal pole... then a second shot hit Kennedy in the back, and a third shot blew off his head... How does Holland's theory account for the bullet hitting the curb and a fragment hitting James Tague on the cheek?
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Holland arrived at his partially right* theory in 2007 or so.
It's 2025, going on 2026 now.
Things change.
It's known as progress.
*That the first shot occurred before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
"Progress"? Based on what EVIDENCE? We have: (1) a shot that is alleged to have been fired when Zapruder just happened to Not be filming, and (2) this same shot also then transforming into a "Lost Bullet". And you label this as, "Progress"? The Brothers Grimm also composed several drafts of their fairy tales before deciding on their final draft.
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Holland arrived at his partially right* theory in 2007 or so.
It's 2025, going on 2026 now.
Things change.
It's known as progress.
*That the first shot occurred before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
There is zero proof of a shot that early Comrade.
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There is zero proof of a shot that early [at "Z-124"].
"Proof"?
What's your definition of "proof" in this context?
I would say the fact that eight prime witnesses, including JFK, moved their heads rapidly and consciously within half-a-second of each other about a second after the first, missing everything, shot was fired comes pretty darn close (pardon the pun).
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"Proof"?
What's your definition of "proof" in this context?
I would say that the fact that seven prime witnesses, including JFK, moved their heads rapidly and consciously within half-a-second of each other about a second after the first, missing everything, shot was fired comes pretty darn close (pardon the pun).
You're a prosecuting attorney's "dream" juror.
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You're a prosecuting attorney's "dream" juror.
Dear Comrade Storing,
In your never-ending nightmare.
-- Tom
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Clint Hill has already STARTED to react as he is seen doing in the Altgens photo 6 at approx Z 255.
From Z223 to Z255 it’s about 1.5 secs. Therefore. Clint Hill beginning to move one of his feet off the lower step rail of the car at Z255 coincides approx with how fast a trained SS agent would react to recognizing a loud noise at Z223 approx , as coming from a rifle shot.
From Z255 to Z313 it is about 3 more secs , and it’s in this duration of time that Hill is leaping, and his feet hit the ground and he starts to run towards the JFK limo. This is all happening just BEFORE Z313.
And most notably it’s in this next 3 second duration of time as Clint Hill leaps from the foot rail of the car and begins to run , that he heard the 2nd shot BEFORE he heard and saw the effects of the 3rd shot at Z313.
So this is an unresolved anomaly for the WC conventional 3 shots spread over 7-8 secs because if Hill reacted to a Z 233 shot as the 1st shot he heard thus causing him to react by Z 255, then the 2nd shot he heard just before Z313, is highly improbable to have been fired from the MC bolt action rifle , since all 3 shots were fired in only 4.8 secs.
Thus is why the WC suggested an early (missed the whole limo ) 1st shot idea ( really absurd it would seem ) if not for a possibility of the TSBD shooter accidentally squeezing trigger AS he leaned over to rest the rifle on the boxes he had arranged to serve as a firing platform.
This unaimed accidental trigger squeeze by the TSBD shooter could be plausible EXCEPT that it would is inconsistent with the 2/3rds of witness hearing a rapid 3 shot sequence as 1….2.3 . Furthermore, Harold’s Norman’s recollection of 3 shots fired as quickly as 4-5 secs is coincidentally matching with Clint Hills reaction beginning at Z255 and his recollection of the last 2 shots being very close together.
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Clint Hill has already STARTED to react as he is seen doing in the Altgens photo 6 at approx Z 255.
From Z223 to Z255 it’s about 1.5 secs. Therefore. Clint Hill beginning to move one of his feet off the lower step rail of the car at Z225 coincides approx with how fast a trained SS agent would react to recognizing a loud noise at Z223 approx , as coming from a rifle shot.
From Z255 to Z313 it is about 3 more secs , and it’s in this duration of time that Hill is leaping, and his feet hit the ground and he starts to run towards the JFK limo. This is all happening just BEFORE Z313.
And most notably it’s in this next 3 second duration of time as Clint Hill leaps from the foot rail of the car and begins to run , that he heard the 2nd shot BEFORE he heard and saw the effects of the 3rd shot at Z313.
So this is an unresolved anomaly for the WC conventional 3 shots spread over 7-8 secs because if Hill reacted to a Z 233 shot as the 1st shot he heard thus causing him to react by Z 255, then the 2nd shot he heard just before Z313, is highly improbable to have been fired from the MC bolt action rifle , since all 3 shots were fired in only 4.8 secs.
Thus is why the WC suggested an early (missed the whole limo ) 1st shot idea ( really absurd it would seem ) if not for a possibility of the TSBD shooter accidentally squeezing trigger AS he leaned over to rest the rifle on the boxes he had arranged to serve as a firing platform.
This unaimed accidental trigger squeeze by the TSBD shooter could be plausible EXCEPT that it would is inconsistent with the 2/3rds of witness hearing a rapid 3 shot sequence as 1….2.3 . Furthermore, Harold’s Norman’s recollection of 3 shots fired as quickly as 4-5 secs is coincidentally matching with Clint Hills reaction beginning at Z255 and his recollection of the last 2 shots being very close together.
Hill never left the car till after the head shot. He lied for years about it. Could you have seen him on the witness stand during a trial confronted with video evidence?
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If people are gonna but into the Max Holland's 11+ seconds elapsed time for all 3 shots, then the inaction of the SS becomes even more egregious. How can a POTUS be under active fire for 11+ seconds and the SS does absolutely NOTHING to defend him? Nothing but cut-n-run. "Take a bullet for the POTUS"? That's comic book stuff.
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If people are gonna but into the Max Holland's 11+ seconds elapsed time for all 3 shots, then the inaction of the SS becomes even more egregious. How can a POTUS be under active fire for 11+ seconds and the SS does absolutely NOTHING to defend him? Nothing but cut-n-run. "Take a bullet for the POTUS"? That's comic book stuff.
JFK was under fire from Oswald for 6 seconds.
Then 4 seconds later Hill jumped, while at that same time Hickey fired Hickey's AR15 (an accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots, the last shot hitting JFK in the head).
Hill should have (instead of jumping) grabbed the barrel of Hickey's AR15.
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JFK was under fire from Oswald for 6 seconds.
LOL!
10.2 seconds.
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Hill never left the car till after the head shot. He lied for years about it. Could you have seen him on the witness stand during a trial confronted with video evidence?
Hill jumped allmost one second before the headshot. Hill was allmost level with the front wheel at Z312-Z313 (seen in the Bronson footage).
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LOL!
10.2 seconds.
Nope. Oswald fired at about Z105 & then at about Z218 (ie 6.1 seconds).
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Nope. Oswald fired at about Z105 & then at about Z218 (ie 6.1 seconds).
If it involves another shooter, it's just one of the versions Vladimir Putin wants you to believe.
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JFK was under fire from Oswald for 6 seconds.
Then 4 seconds later Hill jumped, while at that same time Hickey fired Hickey's AR15 (an accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots, the last shot hitting JFK in the head).
Hill should have (instead of jumping) grabbed the barrel of Hickey's AR15.
You claim that SA Hickey fired 4 total shots/bursts: (1) What evidence proves that a total of 4 shots were fired from the AR-15? and, (2) Where did the other 3 shots go?
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You claim that SA Hickey fired 4 total shots/bursts: (1) What evidence proves that a total of 4 shots were fired from the AR-15? and, (2) Where did the other 3 shots go?
U can search my threads devoted to Hickey. On both forums. Hickey fired 4 or 5 or 6 shots.
Hickey's Shot-1 hit kerb & injured Teague. Shot-2 hit grass. Shot-3 hit kerb. Shot-4 hit tarmac. Shot-5 hit chrome trim. Shot-6 (Z312-Z313) hit JFK in head, & cracked windshield.
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U can search my threads devoted to Hickey. On both forums. Hickey fired 4 or 5 or 6 shots.
Hickey's Shot-1 hit kerb & injured Teague. Shot-2 hit grass. Shot-3 hit kerb. Shot-4 hit tarmac. Shot-5 hit chrome trim. Shot-6 (Z312-Z313) hit JFK in head, & cracked windshield.
The AR-15 is a very powerful rifle. How doe shot #5 hit the "chrome trim" and Not Penetrate that trim? (I am assuming this is the "dented" chrome trim that runs just below the top of the windshield). A clean shot from the powerful AR-15 should have had no problem penetrating that chrome trim.
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The AR-15 is a very powerful rifle. How doe shot #5 hit the "chrome trim" and Not Penetrate that trim? (I am assuming this is the "dented" chrome trim that runs just below the top of the windshield). A clean shot from the powerful AR-15 should have had no problem penetrating that chrome trim.
A stainless steel chromed strip/trim sitting loosely over a strong steel windshield frame must obviously stop a (say) hollow point.
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In the pix we can see that a puny chrome stripe over thin sheet steel can stop a handgun slug.
The JFK limo had a big chrome trim (usually stainless steel)(very hard) over a say 3" by 1.5" steel tube (much tougher than the sheet steel of the door in the pix), & Hickey's AR15 slug was a say 55grain hollow point & not full metal jacket. Dent shown in bottom pix.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KQwbUjPh0SQ9pbofbGwAzeVl231qvsWgz-iTA62lppydbfMLTViHjNHGrYs3Bt42snmn8vN86vwPcygG4ED8JSUyeFbD0bzXknf97TtkRs04Y8TI5cgdnhqAacbQ41eomyZy95hn4kq3mFvpGskRvdxMoBWWV2Clqww9iRwdLVmbv5dKia9ojfLASXgnBR5_ANI6ZOvDV4ku5TA8yQW-oQxzpr7dvSOor-IJWuHMQlJfq6QJt10ykTAZslJ9Z8epDnUSGATAuOW570qUvUYU8cISloW6JQc7CnlLESIXhyjeb6Rw3WeliHRLmqZvOxTa4a1yDTzElFiglXgAcxnyoYwB_NhfruKMJ9Hz0Jj4WKNWvlB4rFavZeTcv-q8GmPE0l_bwCp7Vc-xuS5PmT66ayCqha3PdBaPiA9XGGtOa8xhscChvRsh_fCTKwsJBgeqy5NZulkntLIM-3lZ4rm-0JkzyNhhYK3kHEaVA-6LihUVxF8BI6ZSZw0KfZMo18zRJwNAI5A1H852M1GGb3ZEnOB6219pltwexYCn033LMtkah63XyJg6m0idSgdwHTLL1H1FK6Z4GgVX0Y_IIFjGKvIzJLNF4j4zzpjZRJv4MyaxZkLN3bflw6T6std2t2XRtgYAWaQW0iVndeKsIAu8Wvt4TDSgmiLHfYcfE9FPjQRB7rajb6FiKSMLrWAaz1c4L798_24KXBvbfJchEHGpT3l-=w548-h381-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fzLkw33BtPHlvej93LCdRDC84baVEaKKNdZChIAVG_hoOnqGGzP7N7WodKX9dULZKanCTZwPRWceZtFU1CVWZqFdrgqqrf1dlaoh9Ur8saixpawz3AKnAhisSzvkDKtrbjLpnAOHKTOi437HKL7Ahd=w700-h591-no?authuser=0)
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So, you want to compare the firepower of the AR-15 to the firepower of a "handgun"? Seriously? You are discrediting ALL of the other work you have done regarding the possible firing of the AR-15 on 11/22/63.
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I officially vote that Clint Hill was preparing to leap at Z 255, but that the total time for the completion of the leap where both his feet have hit the ground is somewhere around Z-275.
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So, you want to compare the firepower of the AR-15 to the firepower of a "handgun"? Seriously? You are discrediting ALL of the other work you have done regarding the possible firing of the AR-15 on 11/22/63.
A say 65% edge-contact on a thin chromed strip stopped the large slug from entering the door, compared to the entry of its 4 mates.
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A say 65% edge-contact on a thin chromed strip stopped the large slug from entering the door, compared to the entry of its 4 mates.
I like all the work you have put into the possibility of SA Hickey firing the AR-15. I draw the line with your pushing a clean shot from the AR-15 would only "dent" the chrome striping above the JFK Limo Windshield.
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I like all the work you have put into the possibility of SA Hickey firing the AR-15. I draw the line with your pushing a clean shot from the AR-15 would only "dent" the chrome striping above the JFK Limo Windshield.
It would be good if someone did tests re the dent of an AR15 hollow point (versus non-hollow point) on a chromed stainless (preferably with a bent/crimped shape as per limo) over a strong steel rectangular tube (as per limo).
I used 30 stainless steel droppers/spacers for my balcony fence. I drilled 13 small holes per dropper for 13 stainless steel horizontal wires (390 holes).
I drilled 26 holes in each of 11 heavy channel mild steel columns spaced at intervals along the fence as a part of the fence (& for roof support).
Drilling the small holes in the SS was murder.
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It would be good if someone did tests re the dent of an AR15 hollow point (versus non-hollow point) on a chromed stainless (preferably with a bent/crimped shape as per limo) over a strong steel rectangular tube (as per limo).
I used 30 stainless steel droppers/spacers for my balcony fence. I drilled 13 small holes per dropper for 13 stainless steel horizontal wires (390 holes).
I drilled 26 holes in each of 11 heavy channel mild steel columns spaced at intervals along the fence as a part of the fence (& for roof support).
Drilling the small holes in the SS was murder.
I believe the SS had a loaded AR-15 on the floorboard of the Queen Mary due to its' serious firepower. Serious Firepower would not simply "ding" a direct hit on a chrome strip.
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I believe the SS had a loaded AR-15 on the floorboard of the Queen Mary due to its' serious firepower. Serious Firepower would not simply "ding" a direct hit on a chrome strip.
If Oswald made the dent then that would have to have been with his first shot (at about) Z105.
Oswald's second (ie final) shot at Z218 was the magic bullet & could not have made the dent.
I suppose that a pointed full metal jacket AR15 slug might have made a hole in the chrome & in the underlying steel frame.
A hollow point slug would be very hot at short range (say 22 ft). And a spinning hot slug would i think possibly emit a bit of lead before it even reached the chrome, due to centrifugal force, acting on the hot skin, depending on the thickness of any copper coating (just thinking out loud).
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If Oswald made the dent then that would have to have been with his first shot (at about) Z105.
Oswald's second (ie final) shot at Z218 was the magic bullet & could not have made the dent.
I suppose that a pointed full metal jacket AR15 slug might have made a hole in the chrome & in the underlying steel frame.
A hollow point slug would be very hot at short range (say 22 ft). And a spinning hot slug would i think possibly emit a bit of lead before it even reached the chrome, due to centrifugal force, acting on the hot skin, depending on the thickness of any copper coating (just thinking out loud).
It's my understanding that the "1st Shot" is alleged to be the "Lost Bullet" that also resulted in the curb strike/Tague cheek scuffing. The ding in the chrome stripping would therefore be the aftermath of shot #3/Head Explosion.
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It's my understanding that the "1st Shot" is alleged to be the "Lost Bullet" that also resulted in the curb strike/Tague cheek scuffing. The ding in the chrome stripping would therefore be the aftermath of shot #3/Head Explosion.
Holland's ricochet theory re Tague is of course impossible, except that Holland was correct re a ricochet at pseudo Z105 (remnant slug made hole in floor of limo next to Connolly, brass jacket broke into 2 pieces found in limo, lead splatter hitting jfk in the head).
The remnant AR15 slug at Z313 veered & cracked the windshield, a giant veer, but possible.
If Oswald had fired at Z313 then the large veer needed to make the crack in the windshield would be impossible.
The doubly large veer needed to make the dent would be doubly impossible.
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Holland's ricochet theory re Tague is of course impossible, except that Holland was correct re a ricochet at pseudo Z105 (remnant slug made hole in floor of limo next to Connolly, brass jacket broke into 2 pieces found in limo, lead splatter hitting jfk in the head).
The remnant AR15 slug at Z313 veered & cracked the windshield, a giant veer, but possible.
If Oswald had fired at Z313 then the large veer needed to make the crack in the windshield would be impossible.
The doubly large veer needed to make the dent would be doubly impossible.
What specifically do you mean by, "remnant slug made a hole in floor of limo next to Connally"? Are you claiming a slug made a hole in the floorboard of the JFK Limo?
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What specifically do you mean by, "remnant slug made a hole in floor of limo next to Connally"? Are you claiming a slug made a hole in the floorboard of the JFK Limo?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg158462.html#msg158462
Bullet hole in floor of JFK limo, found during modifications in Dec 1963, & hushed up. Notice that the hole is not round, it has been made by the remnant slug after ricocheting off the signal arm. The copper full metal jacket broke in two as usual during the ricochet because it is made in two sections, & these were found in the limo (CE567 CE569). This pix is not in Robin Unger's gallery, but he does know of the pix.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wq00mCx/jfk-limo-bullet-hole-in-floor.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8nNcsPp/extra-steel-dec-1963.jpg)
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So "officially" there was No Hole noted?
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So "officially" there was No Hole noted?
I could not find a copy of the 1963 magazine article.
I am thinking that the hole was not filled, in which case it would be vizible from under the limo at the museum.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dShkKXnwGa3RAtNAL2aZM1csdGmxQD_ruJ8ogot8G4aoWfe6HtZ-uU_oH2Ei4RgNKbl9us1FnuVSRATgFRl2MdPz1OBiB7TUBry68pF-VkCZor5HACzgJzzd-xlmG6E495TuI_Vp3yfbj4Kp8bvoVy=w735-h1007-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fRVi5fzFS2WhE2O0uk5M_ixmSLLIIfZNRuDe832qDeGX_0mW-aaWlHeKYHaAQ-ALui7sKiV6PQO2ozDDPiPx10gERzfopE-BXU41byLdTKMRXeW8aTJoKq2sJdOWyc-Gs-TfZjSWBMkcEHtnvdrBne=w735-h1007-no?authuser=0)
https://sites.google.com/view/oswaldsfirstshot/home
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPNYhsVvFb7NjNyOvPCyTnGtmP3XpWWM2GN9PYxT-RiaYBjC1sygstEOSKU718Jyg?key=bmtZbEUzbERLb3l4TW5aeFBrem5tS1dzZVVuNm9B
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I could not find a copy of the 1963 magazine article.
I am thinking that the hole was not filled, in which case it would be vizible from under the limo at the museum.
I specifically do Not know what he means by, "floor PAN". The FLOOR of a car is the FLOOR of a car. A FLOOR description is easily understood. FLOOR or FLOOR BOARD is specific all by itself. The "PAN"? I am familiar with the OIL "PAN" at the bottom of a car. Maybe the oil pan had a bullet hole in it?
Getting into a possible bullet hole in the floor/oil pan of the JFK Limo then leads to the discussion of a possible missed shot. A missed shot striking the street and ricocheting underneath the car and Upward into the oil pan.
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I specifically do Not know what he means by, "floor PAN". The FLOOR of a car is the FLOOR of a car. A FLOOR description is easily understood. FLOOR or FLOOR BOARD is specific all by itself. The "PAN"? I am familiar with the OIL "PAN" at the bottom of a car. Maybe the oil pan had a bullet hole in it?
Getting into a possible bullet hole in the floor/oil pan of the JFK Limo then leads to the discussion of a possible missed shot. A missed shot striking the street and ricocheting underneath the car and Upward into the oil pan.
Striking the tarmac directly would result in the slug annihilating into small bits. And a big "hole" in the tarmac.
There would be no ricochet offa tarmac at that angle. No hole in the limo. No brass half jackets in the limo. No splatter hitting JFK on the head.
No, the slug ricocheted offa the overhead signal arm. At about pseudo-Z105. And the photo of the hole in the floor is true.
The remnant slug might then have hit the driveshaft &/or tarmac.
The floor carpet (& hole in carpet) might still exist, even tho the guy who removed/replaced it in 1963 said that he destroyed the carpet.
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Striking the tarmac directly would result in the slug annihilating into small bits. And a big "hole" in the tarmac.
There would be no ricochet offa tarmac at that angle. No hole in the limo. No brass half jackets in the limo. No splatter hitting JFK on the head.
No, the slug ricocheted offa the overhead signal arm. At about pseudo-Z105. And the photo of the hole in the floor is true.
The remnant slug might then have hit the driveshaft &/or tarmac.
The floor carpet (& hole in carpet) might still exist, even tho the guy who removed/replaced it in 1963 said that he destroyed the carpet.
We really have No Idea what the street looked like after the assassination. How many detailed photos/still frames of the street have you ever seen? Same goes for the grass surface of The Grassy Knoll and The Knoll, (in front of the Pergola). The condition of the grass surface is important due to the possibility of bullet(s) furrowing into the ground, and reports of a motorcycle racing across/up it.
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We really have No Idea what the street looked like after the assassination. How many detailed photos/still frames of the street have you ever seen? Same goes for the grass surface of The Grassy Knoll and The Knoll, (in front of the Pergola). The condition of the grass surface is important due to the possibility of bullet(s) furrowing into the ground, and reports of a motorcycle racing across/up it.
One of the surveyors who made a map of the plaza said that he looked for & found no bullet damage in tarmac.
But he might not have had a proper look at every inch, just looked at a few critical areas i think, probly spent little or zero time looking upstream of Z133.