JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on October 28, 2025, 07:09:21 PM
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Recently Dale Myers appeared on an episode of Fred Litwins podcast. In the podcast Myers goes through a series of computer diagrams showing how he believes LHO was walking from east to west along 10th street before he shot Tippit. The Warren Commission believed LHO was walking from west to east (ie had passed in front of Helen Markham) before shooting Tippit. The podcast can be viewed here (with the relevant section starting at 57 minutes):
Myers diagrams appear to build a reasonable case that the Tippit shooter had been walking east to west before shooting Tippit. Thats because several people did see this mystery person walking east to west along the sidewalk. Therefore his existence is not in doubt.
However one of his diagrams I feel is the achilles heel in his whole east to west theory.
The below diagram shows the mystery man walking east to west along the sidewalk. The two people standing in front of the house across the street are Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith. Bill Smith never saw the mystery man walking along the sidewalk (perhaps because he had his back to the street) but Jimmy Burt did see him. The issue arises with the pickup truck parked at the intersection between 10th street and Denver. Two individuals were sitting in the truck having a morning snack. Jim Archer was in the drivers seat and Jimmy Brewer was sitting beside him. Because Brewer was blocking Archers view of the east, Archer never saw the man walking from the east. Brewer did see him however and said that the mystery man did not pass in front of their pick up truck but went behind it. At least that’s what Archer said Brewer said. We don’t know what Brewer himself said as there is apparently no account of what Brewer himself said.
(https://i.ibb.co/RTLsZZkF/image.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pv2mPxkH/1.jpg)
Myers says, and I’m guessing he is quoting an interview of Archer in this regard (he footnotes a 1998 interview of Archer in his book “With Malice”, that Brewer said that the man walking from east to west went behind their pickup truck and then continued walking west along 10th street towards the Tippit murder scene. The problem though with this is that this is what Archer said Brewer said. This is hearsay.
For example, Brewer could possibly have said:
"I saw a man walking from the east and he walked around the back of our truck. I guess he could have been the one that then killed Tippit."
Archer may have then misinterpreted this to mean that Archer was saying he saw the man walk behind the truck and actually saw him then continue walking towards the eventual Tippit murder scene. This is the problem with hearsay. The reality is that Brewer may well have lost sight of the mystery man after he walked behind the back of the pickup truck and was just guessing that the mystery man then continued walking towards the eventual Tippit murder scene.
Therefore there is a fundamental problem with Myers theory that this person is the Tippit killer. While there was obviously a man walking on the sidewalk on the east side of the 10th and Denver intersection (as seen by both Burt and Brewer), the last definite sighting we have of this man is of him walking behind the pickup truck that Archer and Brewer were sitting in having a snack. This leaves the very real possibility that the reason the man walked behind the pickup truck was because he was walking south on Denver street, not continuing on 10th street in the direction of the Tippit murder scene. To the best of my knowledge, the witnesses who saw this man did not describe his clothes so we cant compare his clothes to any of the eyewitnesses at 10th and Patton who witnessed the person who shot Tippit.
This is where Myers controversial diagram comes in.
Archer and Brewer are sitting in a parked pickup truck at the intersection of 10th and Denver. Myers appears to have arbitrarily pushed the pickup truck very far out into the intersection in such a way as to block the sidewalk. This would force any walker to then either go around the front or back of the pickup truck if they intended to continue walking along 10th street. The problem though is that I would posit that Myers has no basis for putting the pickup truck in that unusual position where it is blocking the sidewalk. It’s not as though there were other vehicles parked behind him that forced him to park so far out into the intersection (Myers has not drawn any vehicles behind the pickup truck). And no one would want to park in such a position as there would be the chance that walkers would scrape off the vehicle as they walked either in front of or to the back of the pickup truck. The more natural position to park would be the way Scoggins parked his car at 10th and Patton as in the diagram below.
(https://i.ibb.co/W4896yDP/2.jpg)
Its my theory, and i’ll admit I’m not as well read up about the Tippit murder as Dale Myers or Bill Brown, but I suspect that Archers pickup truck was more likely parked in a similar position to the way Scoggins parked his car (which is well back from the intersection). And that Brewer saw the mystery man walk behind the pickup truck not because the mystery man intended to continue walking west along 10th street, but because he was intending to walk south on Denver street.
In other words, the last sighting we likely have of the mystery man has him walking behind Archers pickup truck, and as Archers pickup truck is likely parked more back from the intersection (than is dipicted in Myers diagram), this would put him on a likely trajectory of walking south on Denver, not continuing on to the Tippit murder scene.
As a final point, the WC may have figured this issue out back in 1964. The reason I say this is that it would have been to the WCs advantage if Oswald had been walking from east to west as Myers theorizes before he killed Tippit rather than walking from west to east as they published in their final report. The west to east trajectory the WC used created the probem that LHO was heading in the general direction of Jack Rubys apartment. A problem they had to address in the final report. Myers east to west trajectory however would have removed the problem of Jack Rubys apartment.
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Every time somebody posts my podcast on the education forum, it gets deleted. I am now on a four month suspension for just
replying to a moderators comment on why he took down three of my posts.
fred
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Every time somebody posts my podcast on the education forum, it gets deleted. I am now on a four month suspension for just
replying to a moderators comment on why he took down three of my posts.
fred
"Former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin cherishes the so-called JFK Assassination Debate -- Education Forum.
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FL-
The EF-JFKA has gone downhill, waaaayyy downhill.
It is run by a crackpot-moderator, who valorizes Run Unz (that is a clue), and many others have been banned.
I was banned for 50 days for stating I was concerned at "internet ghouls" who were cheering Charles Kirk assassination.
I happen to disagree with you on several topics, and Clay Shaw.
That is why you should be a part of any JFKA forum.
I get the impression founder John Simkim is deep into his dotage, which will happen to us all.
On top of all that, there a few EF-JFKA commenters constantly and heavily promoting their own JFKA theories, some of them zany, while others can't seem to stop talking about Trump.
Meaning that a typical Trump voter, that is 50% of the population, would read the EF-JFKA and get turned off.
Oh, that is smart.
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FL-
The EF-JFKA has gone downhill, waaaayyy downhill.
It is run by a crackpot-moderator, who valorizes Run Unz (that is a clue), and many others have been banned.
I was banned for 50 days for stating I was concerned at "internet ghouls" who were cheering Charles Kirk assassination.
I happen to disagree with you on several topics, and Clay Shaw.
That is why you should be a part of any JFKA forum.
I get the impression founder John Simkim is deep into his dotage, which will happen to us all.
On top of all that, there a few EF-JFKA commenters constantly and heavily promoting their own JFKA theories, some of them zany, while others can't seem to stop talking about Trump.
Meaning that a typical Trump voter, that is 50% of the population, would read the EF-JFKA and get turned off.
Oh, that is smart.
Why should anyone stop talking about The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx")?
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@Gerry Down....
Thanks, Gerry, for sharing your observations and opinions with us. It's certainly food for thought.
When trying to answer this question — Was Lee Harvey Oswald Walking East Or West On Tenth Street Before He Shot Officer Tippit? — author Vincent Bugliosi HAD THIS TO SAY (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MaNavZV8Q4GG5tXpW0ko65GDlD8tU3qL/view).
Also....
Here's another useful image, which is a March 1964 aerial photograph showing the area surrounding the Tippit murder site:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh5oKSgtTvewgfkf7QWkMCc-jk02yzV2GxRxNvzuPJw1AiEZDSYxfoc-JaI8t4tiOhyFoaMeIkJ0PhURfF1y7SUWCyhpW7NmbrWkmFgIYsSMaGvUBObTrgVUuxHSZRBBDhpLawfR3TJXHfM/s4000/Commission-Document-630--(2).jpg)
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Why should anyone stop talking about The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx")?
In almost all cases, it has nothing to do with the JFKA.
If you are anti-Trump, or anti-Biden, fine by me. There are floods online about blue-red blah, blah, blah and blabber-o-rama.
I am interested in the JFKA.
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In almost all cases, it has nothing to do with the JFKA.
If you are anti-Trump, or anti-Biden, fine by me. There are floods online about blue-red blah, blah, blah and blabber-o-rama.
I am interested in the JFKA.
You're convinced it was a conspiracy, right?
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I provide much of the other side of the story on the Tippit shooting, i.e., many of the problems with the case against Oswald in the shooting, in my review of Myers' book:
"Did Oswald Shoot Tippit? A Review of Dale Myers’ Book With Malice"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_j_022lJYli3B5Xyw8wLs-0nl6mDLo2t/view?usp=sharing
EXCERPT:
The bulk of the evidence indicates that Tippit was shot several minutes earlier than Myers can allow, and several minutes before Oswald could have arrived at the scene. Myers sidesteps most of this evidence. For example, Myers fails to mention that Mrs. Markham felt certain Tippit was shot at around 1:06 or 1:07. Bowley's watch-checked time of 1:10 for his arrival at the scene matches well with Markham's time of 1:06-1:07 for the shooting and with Benavides' account that he waited a few minutes before he approached the patrol car. It also corresponds with other eyewitness estimates of when the shooting occurred.
The evidence clearly indicates that Tippit was shot very soon after he exited his car at 1:08. Tippit’s last transmission was at 1:08 and was mostly likely made to let the dispatcher know that he was exiting his car, which was standard procedure. And, as mentioned, Bowley arrived at the scene at 1:10. Thus, Markham’s time of 1:06 or 1:07 for the shooting is very close to the mark. Perhaps Myers did not think he could afford to mention Mrs. Markham's comments about when the shooting occurred because he had already noted that Markham was en route to her regular 1:12-1:15 bus when she witnessed the Tippit slaying. Several other facts support Mrs. Markham's statements about the time of the shooting.
Mrs. Markham said that she left her apartment building at 1:04, that it would have taken her about 2 minutes to walk from her apartment building to the Tippit scene, that she walked to her bus stop every day, and that she had a routine of leaving at 1:00 to catch her bus. Myers would have us believe that Markham erred substantially, by 7 minutes, in her recollection of when she left her apartment building, even though she noted that as she was leaving she glanced at the clock in the laundry room of her apartment building and that the clock read 1:04. Nonetheless, Myers argues that Mrs. Markham was mistaken.
Mrs. Markham's time of 1:06 or 1:07 for the shooting, though just a minute or two early, is much closer to the mark than Myers’ time of 1:14. Her time is consistent with her testimony that she left the apartment building at 1:04; it is consistent with how long it would have taken her to walk from her apartment to where she was when Tippit was shot (2-4 minutes); and it is consistent with her testimony that the laundry room clock read 1:04 when she departed for her bus stop. But Myers simply cannot afford to accept Mrs. Markham’s time as close to the mark because it destroys his version of the shooting.
Bowley's radio call to the dispatcher deserves further consideration. As mentioned, Bowley reported his watch read 1:10 when he drove up to the crime scene, which means Tippit must have been shot a minute or two earlier. Bowley then walked up to the car, took the radio mike from Domingo Benavides, and contacted the police dispatcher at 1:16 or 1:17. Note that this was after Benavides heard gunfire, ducked into his truck and waited there "for a few minutes" (out of fear the killer would return), got out of his truck, attempted to help Tippit, climbed into the squad car, and then fumbled with the radio as he tried to figure out how it worked. It was at this point that Bowley appeared inside the car, took the radio from Benavides, and contacted the dispatcher.
The standard lone-gunman explanation is that Benavides waited in his truck only for a matter of seconds and not for a few minutes. But this flies in the face of common sense, not to mention that it ignores what Benavides himself initially said, which was that he waited in his truck for "a few minutes." If you were only 25-50 feet away from a shooting and feared you could be the next target, how long would you wait until coming out into the open again? Understandably, and by all accounts, Benavides was scared to death by the shooting. He told the WC he waited in his truck "a few minutes" after he heard the shots. According to fellow witness Ted Calloway, Benavides told him the day after the shooting that,
When I heard that shooting, I fell down into the floorboard of my truck and I stayed there. It scared me to death. (p. 220, emphasis added)
Years later Benavides changed his story and told CBS he only waited a few seconds, not a few minutes. Predictably, Myers chooses to accept Benavides' belated change of story and rejects his original statements (pp. 86-87).
If, as seems likely, Benavides did in fact wait in his truck for a minute or two after the shots rang out, then the case against Oswald collapses, unless one is willing to assume some unknown person gave Oswald a ride to the Tippit shooting scene. Myers is willing to speculate that this might have happened, suggesting that a person who gave Oswald a ride would not have come forward to tell about it because he would have been too embarrassed (p. 352). But why would Oswald have wanted to be dropped off at 10th and Patton? ("Did Oswald Shoot Tippit?", pp. 27-29)
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You're convinced it was a conspiracy, right?
I suspect a JFKAC, but I am not convinced.
I suspect a rather small conspiracy, possibly just two guys from Alpha 66 and LHO.
What role LHO played, I dunno. Maybe he fires shots from the TSBD6 sniper window in earnest, or maybe to miss.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z280.jpg
This is Z-film 280. You see JBC has done a 180-degree turn in his seat, and you see the left profile of his face. JBC is facing backwards, looking for JFK, in Z-280. This is not debatable.
Yet by the SBT, JBC by Z-280 has already been shot through the chest, had his right wrist fractured, and has a projectile buried in his left leg. After sustaining those injuries, JBC turns around to look for JFK, by the SBT.
JBC testified he was pushed forward and immediately incapacitated by the slug that struck him, which is entirely believable.
So, I wonder what happened---I suspect a second gunsel behind JFK. I can't prove it. If you want high proof, see the label on a bottle of tequila.
However, there are also Youtubes up of people firing M-C carbines every quickly. Seven shots in six seconds.
Paul Landis finding a slug in the limo adds more questions.
As I always say, caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
I think the HSCA was close.
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I suspect a JFKAC, but I am not convinced.
I suspect a rather small conspiracy, possibly just two guys from Alpha 66 and LHO.
What role LHO played, I dunno. Maybe he fires shots from the TSBD6 sniper window in earnest, or maybe to miss.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z280.jpg
This is Z-film 280. You see JBC has done a 180-degree turn in his seat, and you see the left profile of his face. JBC is facing backwards, looking for JFK, in Z-280. This is not debatable.
Yet by the SBT, JBC by Z-280 has already been shot through the chest, had his right wrist fractured, and has a projectile buried in his left leg. After sustaining those injuries, JBC turns around to look for JFK, by the SBT.
JBC testified he was pushed forward and immediately incapacitated by the slug that struck him, which is entirely believable.
So, I wonder what happened---I suspect a second gunsel behind JFK. I can't prove it. If you want high proof, see the label on a bottle of tequila.
However, there are also Youtubes up of people firing M-C carbines every quickly. Seven shots in six seconds.
Paul Landis finding a slug in the limo adds more questions.
As I always say, caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
I think the HSCA was close.
Paul "The Cellar" Landis' allegedly finding a slug in the limo.
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Every time somebody posts my podcast on the education forum, it gets deleted. I am now on a four month suspension for just
replying to a moderators comment on why he took down three of my posts.
fred
Keep up the good work on your blog. We need informative content to bat against the continued stream of craziness.
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@Gerry Down....
Thanks, Gerry, for sharing your observations and opinions with us. It's certainly food for thought.
When trying to answer this question — Was Lee Harvey Oswald Walking East Or West On Tenth Street Before He Shot Officer Tippit? — author Vincent Bugliosi HAD THIS TO SAY (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MaNavZV8Q4GG5tXpW0ko65GDlD8tU3qL/view).
Also....
Here's another useful image, which is a March 1964 aerial photograph showing the area surrounding the Tippit murder site:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh5oKSgtTvewgfkf7QWkMCc-jk02yzV2GxRxNvzuPJw1AiEZDSYxfoc-JaI8t4tiOhyFoaMeIkJ0PhURfF1y7SUWCyhpW7NmbrWkmFgIYsSMaGvUBObTrgVUuxHSZRBBDhpLawfR3TJXHfM/s4000/Commission-Document-630--(2).jpg)
Thanks for that. To be fair, Bugliosi might not be right that Oswald would not be likely to turn around in front of a police car in case he drew suspicion. There was a line of trees along the sidewalk which may have hindered the view between Oswald and the approaching police car. Oswald may have felt he could turn around without the police car seeing him as the tree might block Tippits view. Still though, personally I would prefer to walk towards such a police car rather than turn my back as it would give me the best chance to run away in case the police car tried to stop me.
At the end of the day there is a timing issue with having Oswald coming from the east and walking westwards. Therefore the burden of proof is on Myers to prop up his theory against the WCs version. And in my opinion, the evidence is just not strong enough for his theory.
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FL-
The EF-JFKA has gone downhill, waaaayyy downhill.
It is run by a crackpot-moderator, who valorizes Run Unz (that is a clue), and many others have been banned.
I was banned for 50 days for stating I was concerned at "internet ghouls" who were cheering Charles Kirk assassination.
I happen to disagree with you on several topics, and Clay Shaw.
That is why you should be a part of any JFKA forum.
I get the impression founder John Simkim is deep into his dotage, which will happen to us all.
On top of all that, there a few EF-JFKA commenters constantly and heavily promoting their own JFKA theories, some of them zany, while others can't seem to stop talking about Trump.
Meaning that a typical Trump voter, that is 50% of the population, would read the EF-JFKA and get turned off.
Oh, that is smart.
I was banned for 3 days for something similar.
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I was banned for 3 days for something similar.
It happens.