JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on September 17, 2025, 06:14:56 PM
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Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The image above is taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, Lovelady states he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting and that "after it was over we went back into the building."
No mention of him moving from the steps.
In his WC testimony he states he was on the steps when Gloria came running up and told him that the President had been shot. This is the moment we are witnessing in the image above.
A close examination of the GIF below (created by Chris Davidson, watch full screen and quarter speed), we see Karan Hicks (the woman in white) arriving at the steps and starting to climb them. She appears to have her arm linked with Gloria. As she climbs the steps, she seems to be briefly halted by the stationary figure of Gloria as she tells Lovelady, and others on the steps, about the shooting. Bill Shelley, returning from the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets, has his back to the camera as he takes a couple of large strides towards the steps before turning to his left and we see him in profile -
“I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building...”
[Shelley - affidavit 22nd Nov]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1
The important aspect of Darnell is that it shows Lovelady on the steps, interacting with Gloria, as Baker arrives at the front steps.
This reveals that both Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They were truthful in the very first statements they gave, but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
After the shooting, Shelley ran across to the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets where he met Gloria coming the other way. Gloria was crying and told him the President had been shot. As they were making their way to the TSBD building Gloria approached Officer Joe Marshall Smith and told him that someone was shooting at the President from the bushes - "she was in hysterics" Smith recalls.
At the steps Gloria told Lovelady and the others about the shooting. Immediately after this Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. They were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
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If this is the case, then Lovelady was told about 70 secs post shots by Truly to guard the elevators yes?
If Lovelady is guarding the rear elevators, then the west rear elevator that supposedly had Jack Dougherty operating it from 5th floor, never made it to the 1st floor, because surely Lovelady would have seen Dougherty ( and also Eddie Piper)?
Curiously when Victoria Adams went back inside the TSBD after a few more minutes post shots had elapsed ( unsure how many?) she went up to the 2nd floor and saw Luke Mooney trying to unsuccessfully operate the west elevator stuck on the 2nd floor.
So this suggests that the shooter was on the west elevator and had brought it down to the 2nd floor, where he exited from it leaving it stuck on the 2nd floor.
The WC tried to establish that Jack Dougherty was using the west elevator, and brought it all the way down to 1st floor but this now is not very probable if Lovelady is at the rear elevators being told by Truly to guard them at 70 secs post shots. And Eddie Piper never verified seeing Dougherty either.
Why did not Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom (confronted by Baker 90 sec post shots) see the shooter exiting the west elevator some 10-15 seconds later?
Answer: Because Oswald went into the 2nd floor office thru the vestibule door and was about to meet Mrs Reid, when the shooter exited the west elevator on 2nd floor.
Why did not Truly or Baker see the west elevator coming down, as they ascended the staircases?
Answer: Because the staircase is an L shaped type encased in walls, which blocks LOS about 50% of the ascent trek. So the coin flipped in the shooters favor and he was unseen.
Why did not Dorothy Garner see the west elevator going down?
It’s again another 50% coin flip in favor of the shooter because it must have been at about the point Garner was looking at Baker and Truly ascending the staircase to 4th floor, when the west elevator went past the 4th floor.
Oswald therefore, could not have been the 6th floor shooter because the west elevator was seen motionless on the 5th floor by Truly looking up the shaft at 70 secs post shots. Thus Oswald starting at 75 secs operating west elevator would not make it to the 2nd floor lunchroom in time to be seen by Baker IN the lunchroom at 85-90 secs post shots.
And likewise, Oswald certainly would not make it down in time using the staircases , let alone having to pass by Mrs Garner in the 4th floor standing by the west window, for Oswald to be seen by Baker already IN the 2nd floor lunchroom at 85-90 secs post shots.
So the shooter is either Jack Dougherty ( with no alibi, not seen by Piper nor Lovelady /Shelly on 1st floor, )or there was some other TSBD employee with no alibi, or there was some professional “contractor” whom was the shooter.
And the shooter stopped the west elevator at the 2nd floor where it stayed until Luke Mooney and Adams met there several minutes posts shots.
The shooter could have exited out of the 2nd floor west side window by the rear staircase , onto the rooftop of the annex bldg portion attached to TSBD then dropped to ground kind of like that most recent psycho assassin did.
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Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The image above is taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, Lovelady states he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting and that "after it was over we went back into the building."
No mention of him moving from the steps.
In his WC testimony he states he was on the steps when Gloria came running up and told him that the President had been shot. This is the moment we are witnessing in the image above.
A close examination of the GIF below (created by Chris Davidson, watch full screen and quarter speed), we see Karan Hicks (the woman in white) arriving at the steps and starting to climb them. She appears to have her arm linked with Gloria. As she climbs the steps, she seems to be briefly halted by the stationary figure of Gloria as she tells Lovelady, and others on the steps, about the shooting. Bill Shelley, returning from the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets, has his back to the camera as he takes a couple of large strides towards the steps before turning to his left and we see him in profile -
“I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building...”
[Shelley - affidavit 22nd Nov]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1
The important aspect of Darnell is that it shows Lovelady on the steps, interacting with Gloria, as Baker arrives at the front steps.
This reveals that both Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They were truthful in the very first statements they gave, but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
After the shooting, Shelley ran across to the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets where he met Gloria coming the other way. Gloria was crying and told him the President had been shot. As they were making their way to the TSBD building Gloria approached Officer Joe Marshall Smith and told him that someone was shooting at the President from the bushes - "she was in hysterics" Smith recalls.
At the steps Gloria told Lovelady and the others about the shooting. Immediately after this Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. They were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
So now we have Calvery being ID'd as the woman that told Officer Smith that they were shooting at JFK, "from the bushes"? Do you realize how ridiculous this Calvery Pandemic has become?
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So now we have Calvery being ID'd as the woman that told Officer Smith that they were shooting at JFK, "from the bushes"? Do you realize how ridiculous this Calvery Pandemic has become?
I'm not sure what your issue is with the identification of Gloria as the woman who told Smith someone was shooting at JFK.
In his WC testimony Smith states he was positioned at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston, facing east up Elm Street with his back to the TSBD building at the time the motorcade passed. After the shots he started to make his way along the Elm Street extension running directly in front of the Depository and it was here he was approached by the hysterical woman.
Gloria ran from her position on Elm Street [A] up to the spur dividing the two Elm Streets where she met Bill Shelley [B] who had run across from the front steps. She then made her way from the spur to the front steps [C], crossing the Elm Street extension.
As we can see, her path [the blue line] must cross the path of Smith [the red line]:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfTxTCfL/Roberdeau-Map-Close-Clean-Royell.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
The image below shows Gloria at the steps interacting with Billy Lovelady:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QzxBwPJ/Darnellstepsnamed.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
From the same footage, just a couple of seconds earlier, we see Smith making his way up the Elm Street extension, meaning the interaction with Gloria has already happened as she is already at the steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjB5NYsz/Darnell-Baker1.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Elsewhere, I've demonstrated that she could have easily covered the distance by the time we see her in Darnell so I really don't see what the issue is. We know from the image above and Smith's testimony that his interaction with the hysterical woman has already taken place.
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On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time around 75 seconds.
Five days later, the 25th March, both men testify before the WC and they talk about the time trials.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and reached the first floor in less than 60 seconds. On arriving at the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley there as she crossed the floor, heading for the Houston Street loading dock door.
The results of the time trials are firmly established by this point and there is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the area around the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the Baker/Truly time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the timings of Shelley and Lovelady (contradicting the Truly/Baker time trials) to undermine the testimony of Adams!!
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After the shots, Officer Smith had NOT already, "...started to make his way along the Elm St Ext...". That is incorrect. It was AFTER the hysterical woman told Officer Smith about shots being fired through the bushes that he THEN began going down the Elm St Ext and checking all the bushes stretching down that street in front of the TSBD. I know you wanna make Calvery playing Paul Revere with Officer Smith and Lovelady work, but you can Not force it to work. Please get the chronology correct. I seek evidence and proof leading to Fact. A track record such as this forces me to Fact Check everything you post and then when required correct the record for others that also use this forum in their search for truth. Fact Checking and then setting the record straight takes time that I would prefer directing toward my own research. Thank you.
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Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. [Shelley and Lovelady] were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
1) Didn't Adams deny having said that?
2) In which of his official statements, affidavits and testimonies did Officer Baker say he saw two white men in that area?
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1) Didn't Adams deny having said that?
2) In which of his official statements, affidavits and testimonies did Officer Baker say he saw two white men in that area?
The fallout from this wild Calvery telling Officer Smith about shots being fired from the bushes is seriously damaging your own Calvery Claim. It's now snowballing into inaccurate quotes/reports regarding Adams and Baker. And this stuff about Lovelady and Shelley going into the TSBD via the front door and traveling back to the corner of the 1st floor does your footage claiming to show Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St Ext serious damage. This fallout continues engulfing your Calvery claim.
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The fallout from this wild Calvery telling Officer Smith about shots being fired from the bushes is seriously damaging your own Calvery Claim. It's now snowballing into inaccurate quotes/reports regarding Adams and Baker. And this stuff about Lovelady and Shelley going into the TSBD via the front door and traveling back to the corner of the 1st floor does your footage claiming to show Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St Ext serious damage. This fallout continues engulfing your Calvery claim.
Dear Comrade Storing,
What's "My Calvery Claim" other than:
1) Big/tall dark-blouse-wearing, dark-headscarf-wearing, plaid skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery can be seen in Couch-Darnell, standing on (or going up) the TSBD steps with her dressed-all-in-white work colleague within 30 seconds of the final shot.
2) The guy who was "best man" at Calvery's wedding, William Shelley, very likely intercepted (maybe with Lovelady), running-and-crying Calvery on-or-near the "island" about 15 seconds after the final shot -- where she told him / them that JFK had been shot.
3) Distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady and slender suit-wearing Shelley can be seen in Couch-Darnell as they're walking / running in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Hmm?
-- Tom
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I don't know what this might do to burst anyone's bubble - probably nothing since the bubbles of Calvary Guy Tom and WC Sham Man Dan are pretty well impenetrable - but observe "Carol Reed" and "Karan Hicks" in the image below:
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-5057-0-11084000-1440711332.jpg)
In her interview with the Sixth Floor Museum, Karen Westbrook Scranton clearly and unequivocally identifies "Carol Reed" in the light blue scarf as HERSELF and says there is no doubt in her mind that "Karan Hicks" is in fact GLORIA CALVERY. She says she remembers standing with Gloria, who was a good friend with distinctive red hair, and with whom she worked every day. Karen is also visible right next to the Stemmons sign in Willis, which is where she is confident the first shot was heard and JFK reacted with hands to his throat. She recalls the shot sequence as 1-2-pause-3. (She recalls the woman labeled "Gloria Calvary" actually being a Carol, but she isn't sure which one since there were two Carols. It would have been Carol Reed.)
But what does she know anyway?
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[...]
Dear Lance,
I'm afraid you're about seven years behind the curb (sic) on this subject.
Do yourself a favor and look up self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob, and her two TSBD colleagues, strawberry-blond Gloria Jean Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons, at the so-called Ed Forum.
Hint: Thierry "The Moon Landings Were Faked" Speth, Don Roberdeaux, Todd Vaughan, and our very own Robin Unger misidentified Jacob, Holt and Simmons as "Gloria Calvary" (sic), "Karan Hicks," and "Carol Reed," respectively, about fifteen years ago, probably due to the fact that Jacob, Holt and Simmons misstated to the FBI that they were standing on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade.
-- Tom
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After the shots, Officer Smith had NOT already, "...started to make his way along the Elm St Ext...". That is incorrect. It was AFTER the hysterical woman told Officer Smith about shots being fired through the bushes that he THEN began going down the Elm St Ext and checking all the bushes stretching down that street in front of the TSBD. I know you wanna make Calvery playing Paul Revere with Officer Smith and Lovelady work, but you can Not force it to work. Please get the chronology correct. I seek evidence and proof leading to Fact. A track record such as this forces me to Fact Check everything you post and then when required correct the record for others that also use this forum in their search for truth. Fact Checking and then setting the record straight takes time that I would prefer directing toward my own research. Thank you.
After hearing the shots Smith "started up toward the Book Depository" from his position on the southeast corner of Houston and Elm Street. He was walking west towards the Elm Street extension (I'm not actually sure where the extension begins).
He then meets the hysterical woman and, as you say, carries on up the extension.
Do you agree that Smith's path crosses the path of Gloria Calvery coming back from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD building.
It's pretty obvious what I'm saying in the post and I hope you won't try and dodge it again.
We know he was stationed at the southeast corner of Houston and Elm and we know he ran up the extension towards the railroad yard.
We know Gloria ran back from her position on Elm Street, met Bill Shelley at the concrete spur dividing the two Elm Streets and ran across the extension to the front steps.
Not even you can deny that their paths crossed.
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1) Didn't Adams deny having said that?
2) In which of his official statements, affidavits and testimonies did Officer Baker say he saw two white men in that area?
In a statement to the DPD, her WC testimony and, most importantly of all, in the 'lost interview' posted on the forum by Tim Nickerson, she says she saw Lovelady and Shelley. The lost interview is important because it's Vicki speaking, it's her own words.
Barry Ernest reports her saying that the Shelley/Lovelady thing was all made up, which is interesting.
As for Baker, it's in the middle of his WC testimony [page 263]:
Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
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Dear Lance,
I'm afraid you're about seven years behind the curb (sic) on this subject.
Do yourself a favor and look up self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob, and her two TSBD colleagues, strawberry-blond Gloria Jean Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons, at the so-called Ed Forum.
Hint: Thierry "The Moon Landings Were Faked" Speth, Don Roberdeaux, Todd Vaughan, and our very own Robin Unger misidentified Jacob, Holt and Simmons as "Gloria Calvary" (sic), "Karan Hicks," and "Carol Reed," respectively, about fifteen years ago, probably due to the fact that Jacob, Holt and Simmons misstated to the FBI that they were standing on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade.
-- Tom
Right, what does the woman who was actually there know? If the WC evildoers didn't get to her, the KGB probably did. I make no claims, because I really don't care, but I am inclined to lean toward someone who was actually there and spoke with the level of confidence that Westbrook did. She seemed rather confident that she was wearing the light blue scarf, standing right next to the Stemmons sign with Gloria right next to her, but surely you know best. ::)
I might note that Mark Tyler likewise has Calvary standing with Westbrook and that an astonishingly eclectic mix of CTers and LN advocates contributed to his animation - but what do they know? The KGB probably got to all of them.
One might also note that your three suspects ALL said they were on the SOUTH side of Elm, for which Robin Unger took you to task at the Ed Forum - but what did they know? ::) (Good God, people, if you think Tom is obsessive-compulsive about the KGB Bogeyman, you should review his OCD work on the Calvary Issue over the past 10+ years. I think I'll back off before he blows a fuse. I merely note that Westbrook seems supremely confident - watch the interview, which was 2017 and thus after Tom was already on the Calvary warpath.)
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I have to throw the BS: Flag on Officer Smith running toward the Elm St Ext after the shots were fired and Calvary then turning into the "hysterical woman" telling him about shots being fired at the POTUS through the bushes. There is nothing in the Officer Smith WC Testimony to support this. Smith could Not even see the windows of the County Bld due to being positioned so far UP Houston St. After the shots, Smith said that he, "started UP TOWARDS this Book Depository....". This is when the "hysterical woman" told Smith about the shots from the bushes. Smith was Not in position to possibly encounter any woman coming Straight Up Elm St in the direction of the triangle, Elm/Houston corner. Never happened.
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I have to throw the BS: Flag on Smith running toward the Elm St Ext after the shots were fired and Calvary then turning into the "hysterical woman" telling him about shots being fired at the POTUS through the bushes. There is nothing in the Officer Smith WC Testimony to support this. Smith could Not even see the windows of the County Bld due to being positioned so far UP Houston St. After the shots, Smith said that he, "started UP TOWARDS this Book Depository....". This is when the "hysterical woman" told Smith about the shots from the bushes. Smith was Not in position to possibly encounter any woman coming Straight Up Elm St in the direction of the triangle, Elm/Houston corner. Never happened.
Do you agree with this sequence of events:
At the time of the shooting Smith was stationed at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston.
After the shooting he started toward the TSBD building.
After he started toward the TSBD building he was approached by the hysterical woman.
After he was approached by the hysterical woman he made his way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yard.
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Right, what does the woman who was actually there know? If the WC evildoers didn't get to her, the KGB probably did. I make no claims, because I really don't care, but I am inclined to lean toward someone who was actually there and spoke with the level of confidence that Westbrook did. She seemed rather confident that she was wearing the light blue scarf, standing right next to the Stemmons sign with Gloria right next to her, but surely you know best. ::)
I might note that Mark Tyler likewise has Calvary standing with Westbrook and that an astonishingly eclectic mix of CTers and LN advocates contributed to his animation - but what do they know? The KGB probably got to all of them.
One might also note that your three suspects ALL said they were on the SOUTH side of Elm, for which Robin Unger took you to task at the Ed Forum - but what did they know? ::) (Good God, people, if you think Tom is obsessive-compulsive about the KGB Bogeyman, you should review his OCD work on the Calvary Issue over the past 10+ years. I think I'll back off before he blows a fuse. I merely note that Westbrook seems supremely confident - watch the interview, which was 2017 and thus after Tom was already on the Calvary warpath.)
Look into Tom's work before you make even more of a fool of yourself than you usually do.
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I don't know what this might do to burst anyone's bubble - probably nothing since the bubbles of Calvary Guy Tom and WC Sham Man Dan are pretty well impenetrable - but observe "Carol Reed" and "Karan Hicks" in the image below:
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-5057-0-11084000-1440711332.jpg)
In her interview with the Sixth Floor Museum, Karen Westbrook Scranton clearly and unequivocally identifies "Carol Reed" in the light blue scarf as HERSELF and says there is no doubt in her mind that "Karan Hicks" is in fact GLORIA CALVERY. She says she remembers standing with Gloria, who was a good friend with distinctive red hair, and with whom she worked every day. Karen is also visible right next to the Stemmons sign in Willis, which is where she is confident the first shot was heard and JFK reacted with hands to his throat. She recalls the shot sequence as 1-2-pause-3. (She recalls the woman labeled "Gloria Calvary" actually being a Carol, but she isn't sure which one since there were two Carols. It would have been Carol Reed.)
But what does she know anyway?
Thanks for the post above. This is why a Positive ID should never be based on someone's BACK. This is the same kind of knee jerk reaction we saw from the Altgens Photo when Lovelady was mistakenly ID'd as Oswald. Some people never learn. "Measure twice, cut once".
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Look into Tom's work before you make even more of a fool of yourself than you usually do.
STOP with the "Tom" deflection. This is on You. You got the ID Wrong. Just like all those people that looked at the Altgens Photo and claimed we were looking at Oswald when it was actually Lovelady. This is exactly where you are at.
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STOP with the "Tom" deflection. This is on You. You got the ID Wrong. Just like all those people that looked at the Altgens Photo and claimed we were looking at Oswald when it was actually Lovelady. This is exactly where you are at.
That post had nothing to do with you so keep your nose out.
This was the post you avoided:
Do you agree with this sequence of events:
At the time of the shooting Smith was stationed at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston.
After the shooting he started toward the TSBD building.
After he started toward the TSBD building he was approached by the hysterical woman.
After he was approached by the hysterical woman he made his way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yard.
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Do you agree with this sequence of events:
At the time of the shooting Smith was stationed at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston.
After the shooting he started toward the TSBD building.
After he started toward the TSBD building he was approached by the hysterical woman.
After he was approached by the hysterical woman he made his way along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yard.
Now you wanna play "word" games? Smith testified that he started, "UP" Toward the book depository. You have conveniently OMITTED the "UP" which rules out Smith heading in the direction of Calvery. Nice try.
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Right, what does the woman who was actually there know? If the WC evildoers didn't get to her, the KGB probably did. I make no claims, because I really don't care, but I am inclined to lean toward someone who was actually there and spoke with the level of confidence that Westbrook did. She seemed rather confident that she was wearing the light blue scarf, standing right next to the Stemmons sign with Gloria right next to her, but surely you know best.
I might note that Mark Tyler likewise has Calvary standing with Westbrook and that an astonishingly eclectic mix of CTers and LN advocates contributed to his animation - but what do they know? The KGB probably got to all of them.
One might also note that your three suspects ALL said they were on the SOUTH side of Elm, for which Robin Unger took you to task at the Ed Forum - but what did they know? (Good God, people, if you think Tom is obsessive-compulsive about the KGB Bogeyman, you should review his OCD work on the Calvary Issue over the past 10+ years. I think I'll back off before he blows a fuse. I merely note that Westbrook seems supremely confident - watch the interview, which was 2017 and thus after Tom was already on the Calvary warpath.)
You're blowing more smoke than usual out of your fancy pants, Lance.
Karen Westbrook-Scranton (mislabeled as "Jane Berry" in your beloved marked-up-in-yellow Zapruder frame), wearing a (very) light-blue headscarf, herself, that day in '63, can be forgiven, I suppose, for misidentifying:
1) light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmonds as herself,
2) medium-framed strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt as very-large-framed, dark-red-haired (but wearing a dark-blue headscarf that day) Gloria Jean Calvery,
3) and "Maybe XXXXX" as self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (previously misidentified by Speth, Unger, Roberdeau, and Vaughan as . . . gasp . . . Gloria Calvery),
. . . seein' as how she was doing the mis-identifyin' to a . . . gasp . . . national audience, from behind, from a long distance away (from the camera's point of view), and fifty-five years after-the-fact -- to yep, smilin'-and-noddin' Stephen Fagin.
LOL!
-- Tom
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Now you wanna play "word" games? Smith testified that he started, "UP" Toward the book depository. You have conveniently OMITTED the "UP" which rules out Smith heading in the direction of Calvery. Nice try.
Explain to me what you think Smith's movements are after the shooting.
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Explain to me what you think Smith's movements are after the shooting.
I take the above as your admission that you Mickey Mouse'd Smith's WC Testimony. That ain't cool. The above is why knowing Testimony is important. It gets fudged and in the above case, Omitted!
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Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady.
The image above is taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, Lovelady states he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting and that "after it was over we went back into the building."
No mention of him moving from the steps.
In his WC testimony he states he was on the steps when Gloria came running up and told him that the President had been shot. This is the moment we are witnessing in the image above.
A close examination of the GIF below (created by Chris Davidson, watch full screen and quarter speed), we see Karan Hicks (the woman in white) arriving at the steps and starting to climb them. She appears to have her arm linked with Gloria. As she climbs the steps, she seems to be briefly halted by the stationary figure of Gloria as she tells Lovelady, and others on the steps, about the shooting. Bill Shelley, returning from the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets, has his back to the camera as he takes a couple of large strides towards the steps before turning to his left and we see him in profile -
“I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building...”
[Shelley - affidavit 22nd Nov]
The important aspect of Darnell is that it shows Lovelady on the steps, interacting with Gloria, as Baker arrives at the front steps.
This reveals that both Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They were truthful in the very first statements they gave, but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
After the shooting, Shelley ran across to the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets where he met Gloria coming the other way. Gloria was crying and told him the President had been shot. As they were making their way to the TSBD building Gloria approached Officer Joe Marshall Smith and told him that someone was shooting at the President from the bushes - "she was in hysterics" Smith recalls.
At the steps Gloria told Lovelady and the others about the shooting. Immediately after this Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. They were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
Very good post, Dan. Yes, Lovelady and Shelley, like many other witnesses, changed their stories to conform to the lone-gunman tale.
Officer Baker initially said he saw Oswald standing in the second-floor lunchroom. But, realizing that this was impossible if Oswald had been on the sixth floor during the shooting, Baker changed his story and claimed that when he saw Oswald, Oswald was just a few feet beyond the foyer door and that the door "may" have been nearly closed, implying that Oswald had gone through the door a few seconds earlier.
But even this doesn't work. When Baker cooked up this revised story, or when it was fed to him, he/they failed to account for the fact that Truly was running well ahead of Baker and had already crossed the second-floor landing and was heading up the stairs to the third floor when Baker said he spotted Oswald just beyond the foyer door.
Obviously, if Oswald had entered that door just a few seconds before Baker saw him, Truly could not have missed seeing Oswald.
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Thanks for the post above. This is why a Positive ID should never be based on someone's BACK. This is the same kind of knee jerk reaction we saw from the Altgens Photo when Lovelady was mistakenly ID'd as Oswald. Some people never learn. "Measure twice, cut once".
Westbrook also identified herself from the front in Willis 5. In his Chapter 7b, Pat Speer goes through an extensive analysis of the photos. He acknowledges Westbrook's 2017 interview but insists she is simply wrong. However, he insists that the "Woman in White" helping "Calvery" up the TSBD steps is - wait for it! - WESTBROOK! Westbrook in 2017 was so far gone (gee, doesn't seem to be) that she didn't remember she was dressed HEAD TO TOE IN WHITE? I give up - see what you want to see and whatever makes you happy, folks.
BTW, Shelley was pretty clearly taller than 5'-6" and taller than Lovelady - that's the best evidence - and the photos at Prayer Man make clear beyond any reasonable doubt that it is Lovelady and Shelley walking west from the TSBD steps. Mark Tyler's animation, which does not include Shelley because he's irrelevant for Mark's purposes, has Calvery reaching Lovelady at the TSBD steps and entering the building before Lovelady has departed or Baker has arrived; he has Baker arriving and entering the building before Lovelady departs; and Lovelady (and presumably Shelley) then walking west after that.
Note to WC Sham Man Dan: I have read more of Tom's "work" on this issue than you can imagine. I don't insist it's wrong - I do insist the supposed 3D model is - but merely that Westbrook's recollections are flatly contrary, Speer's analysis is different, Tom has been challenged by knowledgeable researchers at almost every twist and turn, and Tom's obsession with this issue has caused me more giggles (it's a hoot!) than anything in recent memory. If your posts were more of a hoot and less in the vein of tedious CTer crap, my life would be complete.
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I take the above as your admission that you Mickey Mouse'd Smith's WC Testimony. That ain't cool. The above is why knowing Testimony is important. It gets fudged and in the above case, Omitted!
Explain to me what you think Smith's movements are after the shooting.
It's a very simple thing to do, Royell.
You seem to have s very strong opinion about it but I can't make out what it is you actually think.
So, for clarification, explain to me what you think Smith's movements are after the shooting.
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Westbrook also identified herself from the front in Willis 5. In his Chapter 7b, Pat Speer goes through an extensive analysis of the photos. He acknowledges Westbrook's 2017 interview but insists she is simply wrong. However, he insists that the "Woman in White" helping "Calvery" up the TSBD steps was - wait for it! - WESTBROOK! Westbrook in 2017 was so far gone (gee, doesn't seem to be) that she didn't remember she was dressed HEAD TO TOE IN WHITE? I give up - see what you want to see and whatever makes you happy, folks.
Dear Fancy Pants,
If you've ever seen the color photos of Calvery and her South-West Publishing Company colleagues (including Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Westbrook) that were taken during (must have been somber) Christmas that year, you'll realize that Westbrook was almost as tall as big/tall Calvery, and probably is, therefore, the best candidate for the tall gal mislabeled as "Jane Berry" in the infamous, marked-up-in-yellow Zapruder frame that Robin Unger posted back-in-the-day (and which has, unfortunately, been misleading JFKA researchers and yahoos like you ever since), thereby meaning that one of Calvery's other colleagues, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed, was "Woman-Dressed-All-In-White" in the Zapruder film and in Couch-Darnell, and, concomitantly (or should I say "conversely"?), that whichever one of those two colleagues wasn't "Dressed-All-In-White Woman" was very likely the bookin'-it towards the TSBD "Running Woman" in the aforementioned Couch-Darnell clip.
-- Tom
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Dear Fancy Pants,
If you've ever seen the color photos of Calvery and her South-West Publishing Company colleagues (including Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Westbrook) that were taken during (must have been somber) Christmas that year, you'll realize that Westbrook was almost as tall as big/tall Calvery, and probably is, therefore, the best candidate for the gal mislabeled as "Jane Berry" in the infamous, marked-up-in-yellow Zapruder frame that Robin Unger posted back-in-the-day and which has, unfortunately, been misleading JFKA researchers and yahoos like you ever since, leaving one of Calvery's other colleagues, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed, as "woman-dressed-all-in-white" in Couch-Darnell, and, concomitantly, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed to be the "Running Woman" in the aforementioned Couch-Darnell clip.
eels
-- Tom
Saw 'em, Pat Speer has them. Pat thinks Westbrook is your woman in white helping "Calvery" up the steps! :D :D :D Shouldn't someone named "Running Woman" be a Native American? :D I love the dialogues between you and Sandy as you ponder the identity of people like "Gray Skirted, Orange Scarfed Fat Girl in Heels." It is - yes - the proverbial hoot. So now Westbrook is "Jane Berry" in a white scarf and dark coat standing next to the woman in white? I guess you'll have to take that up with Speer. Sorry, I refuse to take this seriously or to follow your and WC Sham Man Dan's dark speculation wherever it supposedly leads. If you think the latest 3D model is close, however, you're pretty far gone.
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Saw 'em, Pat Speer has them. Pat thinks Westbrook is your woman in white helping "Calvery" up the steps! Shouldn't someone named "Running Woman" be a Native American? I love the dialogues between you and Sandy as you ponder the identity of people like "Gray Skirted, Orange Scarfed Fat Girl in Heels." It is - yes - the proverbial hoot. So now Westbrook is "Jane Berry" in a white scarf and dark coat standing next to the woman in white? I guess you'll have to take that up with Speer. Sorry, I refuse to take this seriously or to follow your and WC Sham Man Dan's dark speculation wherever it supposedly leads. If you think the latest 3D model is close, however, you're pretty far gone.
If you've ever seen the color photos of Calvery and her South-West Publishing Company colleagues (including Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Westbrook) that were taken during (must have been somber) Christmas that year, you'll realize that Westbrook was almost as tall as big/tall Calvery, and probably is, therefore, the best candidate for the tall gal mislabeled as "Jane Berry" in the infamous, marked-up-in-yellow Zapruder frame that Robin Unger posted back-in-the-day (and which has, unfortunately, been misleading JFKA researchers and yahoos like you ever since), thereby meaning that one of Calvery's other colleagues, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed, was "Woman-Dressed-All-In-White" in the Zapruder film and in Couch-Darnell, and, concomitantly (or should I say "conversely"?), that whichever one of those two colleagues wasn't "Dressed-All-In-White Woman" was very likely the bookin'-it towards the TSBD "Running Woman" in the aforementioned Couch-Darnell clip.
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Very good post, Dan. Yes, Lovelady and Shelley, like many other witnesses, changed their stories to conform to the lone-gunman tale.
To be honest, Michael, I don't believe Shelley and Lovelady are changing their stories to conform to the "lone-gunman tale"
AFAIC they are lying to cover up their actual movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
Officer Baker initially said he saw Oswald standing in the second-floor lunchroom. But, realizing that this was impossible if Oswald had been on the sixth floor during the shooting, Baker changed his story and claimed that when he saw Oswald, Oswald just a few feet beyond the foyer door and that the door "may" have been nearly closed, implying that Oswald had gone through the door a few seconds earlier.
But even this doesn't work. When Baker cooked up this revised story, or when it was fed to him, he/they failed to account for the fact that Truly was running well ahead of Baker and had already crossed the second-floor landing and was heading up the stairs to the third floor when Baker said he spotted Oswald just beyond the foyer door.
Obviously, if Oswald had entered that door just a few seconds before Baker saw him, Truly could not have missed seeing Oswald.
As for Baker and the lunchroom encounter.
I suspect Baker was kind of checking each floor as he went up and, when he got to the second floor, he moved over to the door with the window, looked through it and saw Oswald in the process of buying a Coke.
As he states in his WC testimony - "I don’t know how come I saw him"
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gkFpgsXf/Calveryroom203-NAMED.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjbwfwJc/Calvery-In-Zapruder-close-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Very good post, Dan. Yes, Lovelady and Shelley, like many other witnesses, changed their stories to conform to the lone-gunman tale.
Except: Shelley said he saw Oswald on the first floor by the telephone at 11:50 and that he thought the shots came from the west. Lovelady was even more specific that he thought the shots came from the knoll. He also offered that he had seen Oswald bring his lunch several times and eat in the domino room with other guys. As has been noted with Ruth Paine, both passed up numerous, obvious opportunities to incriminate Oswald and improve the LN narrative. What you say simply makes no sense outside of CT world. Even WC Sham Man Dan disagrees with you - but, alas, his theory ("to cover up their actual movements") makes no sense either. It's all, as always, ad hoc speculation to conform to a preconceived conspiracy theory. In CT world, no one ever gets confused or makes an innocent mistake; even dumbass warehouse workers in the midst of an overwhelming event like the JFKA aren't allowed to be human.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gkFpgsXf/Calveryroom203-NAMED.png) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjbwfwJc/Calvery-In-Zapruder-close-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Thanks for posting these blown-up comparisons, Danny Old Boy.
I think the floor they were standing on was sloped, or the camera was tilted or something because I'm pretty sure Calvery was a bit taller than next-tallest Westbrook.
Regardless, Fancy Pants' glomming onto Speer's belief that "All-In-White Woman" was Westbrook doesn't help him in his attempt to disprove that Calvery was on the steps in Couch-Darnell because even if we accept that (i.e., that "All-In-White Woman" was Westbrook), Westbrook-Scranton still forgot that she was standing to the left of Calvery during the motorcade (as we can see in Zapruder), and she therefore blew her narrative (and her creditability) out of the water in 2018 by placing herself to the right of "her".
-- Tom
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Except: Shelley said he saw Oswald on the first floor by the telephone at 11:50 and that he thought the shots came from the west. Lovelady was even more specific that he thought the shots came from the knoll. He also offered that he had seen Oswald bring his lunch several times and eat in the domino room with other guys. As has been noted with Ruth Paine, both passed up numerous, obvious opportunities to incriminate Oswald and improve the LN narrative. What you say simply makes no sense outside of CT world. Even WC Sham Man Dan disagrees with you - but, alas, his theory ("to cover up their actual movements") makes no sense either. It's all, as always, ad hoc speculation to conform to a preconceived conspiracy theory. In CT world, no one ever gets confused or makes an innocent mistake; even dumbass warehouse workers in the midst of an overwhelming event like the JFKA aren't allowed to be human.
"Shelley said he saw Oswald on the first floor by the telephone at 11:50"
Citation, old-timer.
(isn't it past your bedtime?)
And how do you reconcile your beloved Sham's claim that Givens was the last TSBD employee to see Oswald (near the southeast corner of the 6th floor, no less) when we have Shelley and Piper placing him on the first floor after this?
And why do you think Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements in the aftermath of the assassination, if it wasn't something suspicious? ;)
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Thanks for posting these blown-up comparisons, Danny Old Boy.
I think the floor they were standing on was sloped, or the camera was tilted or something because I'm pretty sure Calvery was a bit taller than next-tallest Westbrook.
Regardless, Fancy Pants' glomming onto Speer's belief that "All-In-White Woman" was Westbrook doesn't help him in his attempt to disprove that Calvery was on the steps in Couch-Darnell because even if we accept that (i.e., that "All-In-White Woman" was Westbrook), Westbrook-Scranton still forgot that she was standing to the left of Calvery during the motorcade (as we can see in Zapruder), and that she blew her narrative (and her creditability) out of the water in 2018 by putting herself to the right of "her".
-- Tom
This is the original picture which I meant to post.
The picture below was taken in December 1963, a few weeks after the assassination and is of ‘the office girls’ working out of Room 203. It is one of a series of photos donated to the 6th Floor Museum by Karen Westbrook Scranton:
[Color photograph of six women who worked in the Texas School Book Depository – Results – Search Objects – The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza (jfk.org)]
(https://i.postimg.cc/59H7XM0V/Calveryroom203.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The photo appears with the following description::
“From left to right in this photo: Woman with dark hair whose name is unknown, Gloria Calvery (red hair, with glasses), Carol (last name unknown), another Carol (last name unknown), Karen Hicks in red, and on the far right, Westbrook.”
We know from the CE 1381’s that Westbrook worked with two Carol’s but, in the photo above, which Carol was Carol Hughes and which was Carol Ann Reed. On his website, Pat Speer reveals:
“Karen Westbrook also mentioned Carol Ann Reed... (Researcher Brian Doyle reports that he contacted Reed, and that she identified herself in the Christmas photos put online by Westbrook, and that she is the fourth woman from the left, with the white sleeves…)”
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Except: Shelley said he saw Oswald on the first floor by the telephone at 11:50 and that he thought the shots came from the west. Lovelady was even more specific that he thought the shots came from the knoll. He also offered that he had seen Oswald bring his lunch several times and eat in the domino room with other guys. As has been noted with Ruth Paine, both passed up numerous, obvious opportunities to incriminate Oswald and improve the LN narrative. What you say simply makes no sense outside of CT world. Even WC Sham Man Dan disagrees with you - but, alas, his theory ("to cover up their actual movements") makes no sense either. It's all, as always, ad hoc speculation to conform to a preconceived conspiracy theory. In CT world, no one ever gets confused or makes an innocent mistake; even dumbass warehouse workers in the midst of an overwhelming event like the JFKA aren't allowed to be human.
"Shelley said he saw Oswald on the first floor by the telephone at 11:50."
So?
Maybe he was trying to call John Abt.
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Explain to me what you think Smith's movements are after the shooting.
It's a very simple thing to do, Royell.
You seem to have s very strong opinion about it but I can't make out what it is you actually think.
So, for clarification, explain to me what you think Smith's movements are after the shooting.
This is exactly why You and everyone else needs to familiarize yourselves with Eyewitness Testimony. You swear by "images" and claim that eyewitness testimony is "unreliable". And then we run into a situation like this, where the Officer Smith Testimony destroys this Calvery being the hysterical woman that told him about shots being fired through the bushes. This claim is Oswald on the TSBD steps in the Altgens Photo all over again. Officer Smith said he was facing (E) on Elm St and unable to see the windows on the County Bld on his (R). I believe Officer Smith was out on Elm St near that Laundry Truck alongside the Dal Tex Bld. From this point after hearing the shots, he testified that he headed "UP Toward this book depository". Images are easy to look at. A lazy way to try and find the truth. Take the time and read the eyewitness testimony of main players. It stands the test of time and the bias of the researcher.
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This is exactly why You and everyone else needs to familiarize yourselves with Eyewitness Testimony. You swear by "images" and claim that eyewitness testimony is "unreliable". And then we run into a situation like this, where the Officer Smith Testimony destroys this Calvery being the hysterical woman that told him about shots being fired through the bushes. This claim is Oswald on the TSBD steps in the Altgens Photo all over again. Officer Smith said he was facing (E) on Elm St and unable to see the windows on the County Bld on his (R). I believe Officer Smith was out on Elm St near that Laundry Truck alongside the Dal Tex Bld. From this point after hearing the shots, he testified that he headed "UP Toward this book depository".
I really don't know why you keep emphasising the word "UP".
In his testimony Smith travels from his position at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston to the "parking lot in behind the grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks".
Did Smith travel west from the southeast corner of Elm and Houston and pass directly in front of the TSBD building as he made his way down the Elm Street extension toward the railroad track?
Yes or No.
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I really don't know why you keep emphasising the word "UP".
In his testimony Smith travels from his position at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston to the "parking lot in behind the grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks".
Did Smith travel west from the southeast corner of Elm and Houston and pass directly in front of the TSBD building as he made his way down the Elm Street extension toward the railroad track?
Yes or No.
"UP AND TOWARD". This is the direction that Smith was moving after the shots were fired and the hysterical lady told him about shots being fired through the bushes. "UP AND TOWARD" the TSBD would NOT put Smith moving in the direction of the Elm St Ext. This is what you may want, but it is Not what Smith claimed. You got it wrong. Like the Oswald ID on the Altgens Photo, you are claiming what you want to be the case. It is simply Not True per Officer Smith's WC Testimony.
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"UP AND TOWARD". This is the direction that Smith was moving after the shots were fired and the hysterical lady told him about shots being fired through the bushes. "UP AND TOWARD" the TSBD would NOT put Smith moving in the direction of the Elm St Ext. This is what you may want, but it is Not what Smith claimed. You got it wrong. Like the Oswald ID on the Altgens Photo, you are claiming what you want to be the case. It is simply Not True per Officer Smith's WC Testimony.
:D :D :D
When you say he was moving "UP", are you saying he was rising into the air?
Why can't you just say what direction he was moving in?
What do you think "Up" means?
(https://i.postimg.cc/J02SBbDc/CE354.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a crop of CE354.
Smith agrees his starting point was near the area marked with a 4 and that he made his way to the concrete structure on the street that
"runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository". This street is the Elm Street extension as I've been saying all along.
You are talking nonsense and have been in every single post you've made here.
It's been a very interesting experience watching you flailing around talking gibberish but it's time to put an end to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn’t know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir: and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, “They are shooting the President from the bushes.” So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIERELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMIITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars...
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Thanks for posting these blown-up comparisons, Danny Old Boy.
I think the floor they were standing on was sloped, or the camera was tilted or something because I'm pretty sure Calvery was a bit taller than next-tallest Westbrook.
Regardless, Fancy Pants' glomming onto Speer's belief that "All-In-White Woman" was Westbrook doesn't help him because even if we accept that, Westbrook-Scranton still forgot that she was standing to the left of Calvery during the motorcade (as we can see in Zapruder), but blew her narrative out of the water in 2018 by putting herself to the right of "her".
-- Tom
Hey, Mr. KGB Guy, I truly don't care who is who. I stand above the fray on issues such as this. If I can egg things on a bit - well, that's OK, too (I call it the Hoot Factor).
I merely point out that Westbrook, who was there, is confident in her identification of herself and Calvery, her close friend and daily coworker.
I merely point out that Speer identifies Westbrook as your woman in white, different from your identification of both Westbrook and the woman in white.
I merely point out that it seems rather unlikely that Westbrook would not have remembered being dressed head to toe in white.
I merely point out that your Westbrook is wearing a white scarf and standing far from where she recalls standing.
I merely point out that the longtime JFK researcher who edits the Calvery Find-a-Grave site (Linda Somebody), shares your identification of Calvery but doesn't think she's the woman running up the steps in the films.
I merely point out that your Native American candidate and her two compadres all said they were standing on the south side of Elm.
I merely point out that the photographic evidence is conclusive that Lovelady, and thus presumably Shelley, was walking west from the TSBD.
I merely point out that this issue has been hashed and rehashed for more than a decade, seemingly without a clear consensus.
For all I know, you may be right. I have a hard time seeing any great significance to it if you are.
It appears from the ramblings of Sandy (RIP) Larsen and Tom way back when that the theory is that Shelley and Lovelady never went down toward the railroad yard at all and did not reenter the TSBD via the west door but that this story was fabricated by WC lawyers to discredit Vickie Adams (i.e., by making their encounter with her later than she said).
Oh, good grief - is THAT with this is all about??? Have I actually wasted hours of my Achilles recuperation on THAT? I really need to learn to be more selective.
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Hey, Mr. KGB Guy, I truly don't care who is who. I stand above the fray on issues such as this. If I can egg things on a bit - well, that's OK, too (I call it the Hoot Factor).
I merely point out that Westbrook, who was there, is confident in her identification of herself and Calvery, her close friend and daily coworker.
I merely point out that Speer identifies Westbrook as your woman in white, different from your identification of both Westbrook and the woman in white.
I merely point out that it seems rather unlikely that Westbrook would not have remembered being dressed head to toe in white.
I merely point out that your Westbrook is wearing a white scarf and standing far from where she recalls standing.
I merely point out that the longtime JFK researcher who edits the Calvery Find-a-Grave site (Linda Somebody), shares your identification of Calvery but doesn't think she's the woman running up the steps in the films.
I merely point out that your Native American candidate and her two compadres all said they were standing on the south side of Elm.
I merely point out that the photographic evidence is conclusive that Lovelady, and thus presumably Shelley, was walking west from the TSBD.
I merely point out that this issue has been hashed and rehashed for more than a decade, seemingly without a clear consensus.
For all I know, you may be right. I have a hard time seeing any great significance to it if you are.
It appears from the ramblings of Sandy (RIP) Larsen and Tom way back when that the theory is that Shelley and Lovelady never went down toward the railroad yard at all and did not reenter the TSBD via the west door but that this story was fabricated by WC lawyers to discredit Vickie Adams (i.e., by making their encounter with her later than she said).
Oh, good grief - is THAT with this is all about??? Have I actually wasted hours of my Achilles recuperation on THAT? I really need to learn to be more selective.
I merely point out that Westbrook, who was there, is confident in her identification of herself and Calvery, her close friend and daily coworker.
Westbrook refers to "her close friend and daily coworker" as Gloria Calvert.
The woman she is referring to has dirty blonde hair whereas Gloria had really striking flame red hair. It was actually orange. Westbrook refers to it.
Also, the woman she refers to as Gloria is around the same height and build as the woman she remembers as Carol. In reality Gloria was way bigger.
The three women in question have been confidently ID'd as Jacobs, Holt and Simmons.
I merely point out that your Native American candidate and her two compadres all said they were standing on the south side of Elm.
There's this thing called the Zapruder film. You should check it out some time. It shows that these three woman are not on the south side of Elm Street.
I'm surprised you're not familiar with it.
I merely point out that the photographic evidence is conclusive that Lovelady, and thus presumably Shelley, was walking west from the TSBD.
Conclusive!!
You are funny when you're tired. ;D
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I don't know what this might do to burst anyone's bubble - probably nothing since the bubbles of Calvary Guy Tom and WC Sham Man Dan are pretty well impenetrable - but observe "Carol Reed" and "Karan Hicks" in the image below:
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-5057-0-11084000-1440711332.jpg)
In her interview with the Sixth Floor Museum, Karen Westbrook Scranton clearly and unequivocally identifies "Carol Reed" in the light blue scarf as HERSELF and says there is no doubt in her mind that "Karan Hicks" is in fact GLORIA CALVERY. She says she remembers standing with Gloria, who was a good friend with distinctive red hair, and with whom she worked every day. Karen is also visible right next to the Stemmons sign in Willis, which is where she is confident the first shot was heard and JFK reacted with hands to his throat. She recalls the shot sequence as 1-2-pause-3. (She recalls the woman labeled "Gloria Calvary" actually being a Carol, but she isn't sure which one since there were two Carols. It would have been Carol Reed.)
But what does she know anyway?
Dear Fancy-Prance Rants,
Did Westbrook-Scranton ever figure out who the dark-complected gal (whose dark-complectedness can be compared with the light-complectedness of fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt in Z-61) was?
IIRC, she said "Uhh . . . Carol Reed?"
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z061.jpg
-- Tom
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:D :D :D
When you say he was moving "UP", are you saying he was rising into the air?
Why can't you just say what direction he was moving in?
What do you think "Up" means?
(https://i.postimg.cc/J02SBbDc/CE354.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a crop of CE354.
Smith agrees his starting point was near the area marked with a 4 and that he made his way to the concrete structure on the street that
"runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository". This street is the Elm Street extension as I've been saying all along.
You are talking nonsense and have been in every single post you've made here.
It's been a very interesting experience watching you flailing around talking gibberish but it's time to put an end to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn’t know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir: and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, “They are shooting the President from the bushes.” So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIERELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMIITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars...
The Smith quotes that you posted above, are what Smith did AFTER the hysterical woman told him about shots being fired through the bushes. Since those bushes the lady told him about stretch down the Elm St Ext., Smith then ran down the Elm Ext. He was Not heading toward the Elm Ext when the hysterical woman told him about the shots/bushes. And that 4 on the map clearly shows that Officer Smith had to move UP when he moved toward the TSBD. Just as he said during his WC Q/A.Your claim that Calvery is the "hysterical" woman that told Smith about the shots through the bushes has been proven to be False. We also still have people claiming we are seeing Oswald on the steps of the TSBD in the Altgens Photo. This is the company that you Now keep.
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It appears from the ramblings of Sandy (RIP) Larsen and Tom way back when that the theory is that Shelley and Lovelady never went down toward the railroad yard at all and did not reenter the TSBD via the west door but that this story was fabricated by WC lawyers to discredit Vickie Adams (i.e., by making their encounter with her later than she said).
Dear Fancy-Prance Rants,
Back then, I was already pretty much a Lone Gunman Advocate, iirc.
Sandy Larsen, on the other hand, was always a Conspiracy Theorist extraordinaire.
So, I doubt that he and I held some overarching JFKA CT in common that incorporated my proving that Robin Unger's Gloria Calvery was actually self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, incorporated our mutual discovery that Calvery was the big/tall, unlabeled-by-Unger gal standing about fifteen feet closer to the TSBD than Jacob and crew in the Zapruder film, and she is, in fact, standing on or going up said steps within 30 seconds of the final shot in the combined Couch-Darnell clip.
I don't remember if I had an opinion back then as to whether or not Shelley and/or Lovelady went down to the railway yard when they said (or didn't say?) that they did, and even if I did, I probably wasn't sure if it supported or discredited Adams' and Styles' / Baker's and Truly's / Lee Harvey Oswald's stories (and I still don't, to be perfectly honest).
I just figured that maybe if I could determine where Gloria Calvery and her three work colleagues were standing on Elm Street during the motorcade, it might help smarter people than me (which is like 90% of the population) figure out whether or not she was close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get there within about 30 seconds of the final shot, and if so, what bearing it would have, if any, on the veracity of Baker's and Lovelady's all-over-the-place (pardon the pun) affidavits, testimonies, and interviews.
I hope that's okay with you, FPR.
-- Tom
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Hey, Mr. KGB Guy, I truly don't care who is who. I stand above the fray on issues such as this. If I can egg things on a bit - well, that's OK, too (I call it the Hoot Factor).
I merely point out that Westbrook, who was there, is confident in her identification of herself and Calvery, her close friend and daily coworker.
I merely point out that Speer identifies Westbrook as your woman in white, different from your identification of both Westbrook and the woman in white.
I merely point out that it seems rather unlikely that Westbrook would not have remembered being dressed head to toe in white.
I merely point out that your Westbrook is wearing a white scarf and standing far from where she recalls standing.
I merely point out that the longtime JFK researcher who edits the Calvery Find-a-Grave site (Linda Somebody), shares your identification of Calvery but doesn't think she's the woman running up the steps in the films.
I merely point out that your Native American candidate and her two compadres all said they were standing on the south side of Elm.
I merely point out that the photographic evidence is conclusive that Lovelady, and thus presumably Shelley, was walking west from the TSBD.
I merely point out that this issue has been hashed and rehashed for more than a decade, seemingly without a clear consensus.
For all I know, you may be right. I have a hard time seeing any great significance to it if you are.
It appears from the ramblings of Sandy (RIP) Larsen and Tom way back when that the theory is that Shelley and Lovelady never went down toward the railroad yard at all and did not reenter the TSBD via the west door but that this story was fabricated by WC lawyers to discredit Vickie Adams (i.e., by making their encounter with her later than she said).
Oh, good grief - is THAT with this is all about??? Have I actually wasted hours of my Achilles recuperation on THAT? I really need to learn to be more selective.
That "hoot factor" is working well.
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The Smith quotes that you posted above, are what Smith did AFTER the hysterical woman told him about shots being fired through the bushes. Since those bushes the lady told him about stretch down the Elm St Ext., Smith then ran down the Elm Ext. He was Not heading toward the Elm Ext when the hysterical woman told him about the shots/bushes. And that 4 on the map clearly shows that Officer Smith had to move UP when he moved toward the TSBD. Just as he said during his WC Q/A.Your claim that Calvery is the "hysterical" woman that told Smith about the shots through the bushes has been proven to be False. We also still have people claiming we are seeing Oswald on the steps of the TSBD in the Altgens Photo. This is the company that you Now keep.
Since those bushes the lady told him about stretch down the Elm St Ext., Smith then ran down the Elm Ext.
FINALLY!!
Finally...Royell concedes that Smith moved from his location at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston down the Elm Street extension, passing directly in front of the TSBD building.
That is all I've been saying for the past few posts but he has argued and argued and argued against it...but, finally, he concedes.
That's Phase 1 out of the way.
The Smith quotes that you posted above, are what Smith did AFTER the hysterical woman told him about shots being fired through the bushes.
As with every single thing you post, you are wrong.
By the Law of Averages you should be right now and again, but no, you are always wrong, down to the tiniest detail.
Smith starts off by saying that he "started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots". This is BEFORE his encounter with the hysterical lady.
He was Not heading toward the Elm Ext when the hysterical woman told him about the shots/bushes.
Unsurprisingly...wrong, again.
The Elm Street extension runs directly in front of the TSBD building so, as Smith is heading toward the Depository after the shots , he is also heading toward the Elm Street extension.
This is such basic logic.
And that 4 on the map clearly shows that Officer Smith had to move UP when he moved toward the TSBD.
Does anyone know what Royell means when he uses the word UP in this context.
I've asked him but he won't tell me.
He just keeps repeating it over and over again in a rather unsettling way.
From his position at 4 in the pic below, Smith moves along the Elm Street extension directly in front of the TSBD building. The red line shows his general direction, IN IS NOT MEANT TO REPRESENT HIS EXACT ROUTE.
Smith does not walk in a perfectly straight line as shown in the pic below, IT'S JUST A SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION OF HIS GENERAL MOVEMENT FROM HIS LOCATION AT 4 TO THE BUSHES ON THE ELM STREET EXTENSION.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FR2k5YnK/CE354-LINE.png) (https://postimages.org/)
As I say, that's Phase 1 complete.
Now for Phase 2 - to get Royell to concede to Gloria's route from her location on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD building.
Let's just go for it.
Royell, do you concede that the red line in the image below shows an APPROXIMATION of Gloria's route from her APPROXIMATE location on Elm Street [A] to the front steps of the TSBD building [B] via the concrete spur dividing the two Elm Streets?
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhnTVqBT/CE354-Calveryroute.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The image above is taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, Lovelady states he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting and that "after it was over we went back into the building."
No mention of him moving from the steps.
In his WC testimony he states he was on the steps when Gloria came running up and told him that the President had been shot. This is the moment we are witnessing in the image above.
A close examination of the GIF below (created by Chris Davidson, watch full screen and quarter speed), we see Karan Hicks (the woman in white) arriving at the steps and starting to climb them. She appears to have her arm linked with Gloria. As she climbs the steps, she seems to be briefly halted by the stationary figure of Gloria as she tells Lovelady, and others on the steps, about the shooting. Bill Shelley, returning from the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets, has his back to the camera as he takes a couple of large strides towards the steps before turning to his left and we see him in profile -
“I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building...”
[Shelley - affidavit 22nd Nov]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1
The important aspect of Darnell is that it shows Lovelady on the steps, interacting with Gloria, as Baker arrives at the front steps.
This reveals that both Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They were truthful in the very first statements they gave, but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
After the shooting, Shelley ran across to the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets where he met Gloria coming the other way. Gloria was crying and told him the President had been shot. As they were making their way to the TSBD building Gloria approached Officer Joe Marshall Smith and told him that someone was shooting at the President from the bushes - "she was in hysterics" Smith recalls.
At the steps Gloria told Lovelady and the others about the shooting. Immediately after this Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. They were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
I'm not sure where Gloria was located... or what she might have seen... but this image from the Elsie Dorman Film needs to be considered regarding her comment about the president being shot at "from the bushes."
(https://i.ibb.co/pgMLqHW/Screenshot-2025-09-19-at-1-28-04-PM.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/qLJ1sKtV/Screenshot-2025-09-19-at-11-09-02-AM.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/v43m3D95/Screenshot-2025-09-19-at-1-38-41-PM.png)
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I'm not sure where Gloria was located... or what she might have seen... but this image from the Muchmore Film needs to be considered regarding her comment about the president being shot at "from the bushes."
(https://i.ibb.co/pgMLqHW/Screenshot-2025-09-19-at-1-28-04-PM.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/qLJ1sKtV/Screenshot-2025-09-19-at-11-09-02-AM.png)
The above refers to what the "hysterical" lady said to DPD Officer Smith. Nobody knows the identity of this woman. I do believe there is something to what this "hysterical" woman told Officer Smith. If you look at the Bill Newman affidavit filed that same day, he said, "I thought the shot had come from The Garden directly behind me, that it was on an Elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb". When Newman says, "The Garden", I take that to mean the bushes that stretch down the Elm St Ext. Those bushes are not "directly" behind Newman, but they are behind him and that area is on higher ground than his position on the Elm St curb. I believe both Bill Newman and that "hysterical" lady were referencing this same area.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Above we see the moment Gloria Calvery tells Lovelady, and others on the front steps, that JFK has been shot.
This image was captured approximately 30 seconds after the head shot.
Baker is just arriving near the bottom of the steps.
Shelley has just arrived back at the steps after his run across to the concrete spur where he bumped into Gloria coming the other way.
Truly is still out in the street and is about to turn around.
Karan Hicks climbs the steps.
On another thread, Tom asks - "How did Billy Lovelady mistake 30 seconds for three minutes?"
He might also ask, "How come Shelley made exactly the same mistake?"
However, it is easily argued that it was months later, there was a lot of confusion etc., etc. and it's just a coincidence that both men made the same mistake (just as both men made exactly the same 'mistake' when they forgot to mention their jaunt down the Elm Street extension, hanging around near the railroad yard and entering the west door of the TSBD building in their affidavits).
The aspect of their testimonies that reveals both men are lying, and not just constantly mistaken, is the sequence of events both men testify to.
In their WC testimonies, both men testify that:
1] They are both on the front steps when the shots occur.
2] They remain on the steps until Gloria comes running up and tells everyone about the shooting. This directly contradicts Shelley's affidavit where he states that he ran across the street where he met Gloria. In his WC he states that, after the shots, "I didn't do anything for a minute".
3] Both men testify it took Gloria 3 minutes to reach the steps. Rather than just accept what the witness is telling him, Ball points out that, "Three minutes is a long time". Why does Ball think Lovelady is overestimating how long it took Gloria to reach the steps? We know from Darnell that this 3 minute estimation is utter nonsense.
4] After listening to Gloria both men head across the Elm St Ext to the concrete spur (which both men refer to as a "little, old island", even though it's not an island). They stay here for a minute or so. Both men testify that it takes at least 4 minutes before they start on their trip along the Elm St Ext to the railroad yard.
5] Both men testify that it is after leaving the steps, after Gloria has told them about the shooting, that they turn around and see Baker and Lovelady about to enter the TSBD building. It is this detail that reveals the obvious lie. Darnell reveals that Baker arrives at the steps while Lovelady is still stood on them listening to Gloria. Shelley is stood near the bottom of the steps when Baker almost runs into him. It is one thing for both men to get the time estimates so incredibly wrong, it is quite another for both men to remember things that didn't happen.
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You all claim to have "evidence" supporting your Calvery story, yet here we have several different stories. The newest version has Shelley leaving the steps and Calvery telling him out in the street what has happened to JFK. Shen then runs to the bottom of the steps and "hollers" the horrific details up at Frazier. And then there's the version where Shelley and Lovelady Never walked up the Elm St Ext. They both simply entered the TSBD through the front door. This is what happens when stories/timelines are based on speculation. This all started with the simple story of Calvery running to the bottom of the TSBD Steps and telling Shelley and Lovelady about the condition of JFK. But like a fish story that has been told numerous times, this fish has now grown several fold. Please submit some real Evidence meriting research. I'd like to look into this.
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The newest version has Shelley leaving the steps and Calvery telling him out in the street what has happened to JFK. She then runs to the bottom of the steps and "hollers" the horrific details up at Frazier.
I would be more accurate to say that Shelley (who had been "best man" at Calvery's wedding) and maybe his sidekick, Lovelady, saw (and heard!!!) Calvery as she was bawling like a dying calf in a thunderstorm and running up Elm Street towards the TSBD, and he/they decided to intercept her at or near the "island" to find out what the heck had traumatized her so badly.
Do you have a problem with that?
Who said that her audience on the steps consisted solely of Buell Wesley Frazier, anyway?
The next version [according to Dan O'Meara] is where Shelley and Lovelady never walked up the Elm Street Extension. They both simply entered the TSBD through the front door.
Okay.
This is what happens when stories/timelines are based on speculation.
You mean like your grandiose HUGE GATES CT?
This all started with the simple story of Calvery's running to the bottom of the TSBD Steps and telling Shelley and Lovelady about the condition of JFK. But like a fish story that has been told numerous times, this fish has now grown several-fold.
It's called progress, Comrade Storing.
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You all claim to have "evidence" supporting your Calvery story, yet here we have several different stories. The newest version has Shelley leaving the steps and Calvery telling him out in the street what has happened to JFK. Shen then runs to the bottom of the steps and "hollers" the horrific details up at Frazier. And then there's the version where Shelley and Lovelady Never walked up the Elm St Ext. They both simply entered the TSBD through the front door. This is what happens when stories/timelines are based on speculation. This all started with the simple story of Calvery running to the bottom of the TSBD Steps and telling Shelley and Lovelady about the condition of JFK. But like a fish story that has been told numerous times, this fish has now grown several fold. Please submit some real Evidence meriting research. I'd like to look into this.
I accept Tom's identification of Calvery on the steps but I believe Darnell shows Gloria talking to Lovelady whereas Tom does not.
It's two different theories.
That's why you're getting confused.
And don't think you've escaped regarding your nonsense about Smith.
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I accept Tom's identification of Calvery on the steps but I believe Darnell shows Gloria talking to Lovelady whereas Tom does not.
It's two different theories.
That's why you're getting confused.
And don't think you've escaped regarding your nonsense about Smith.
There is absolutely No Evidence connecting Calvery to Officer Smith. Everything provided thus far is Speculation. This is why you are calling them "Theories". A Freudian slip on your part.
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Correction: the pics are from the Elsie Dorman film...
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There is absolutely No Evidence connecting Calvery to Officer Smith. Everything provided thus far is Speculation. This is why you are calling them "Theories". A Freudian slip on your part.
OF COURSE IT'S SPECULATION!
OF COURSE IT'S A THEORY!
Man, you really are painful to deal with.
The theory that Gloria is the hysterical lady that Smith interacts with is based on the identification of Gloria on the steps in Darnell and Smith running along the Elm Street Extension in Darnell and the fact that their paths would have crossed in the seconds just before the Darnell footage is taken.
It is based on various descriptions of Gloria being so upset that she was in hysterics.
It is based on the fact that there is a hysterical woman in the area near the front steps of the TSBD who knows JFK has been shot at, seconds after the shooting. This is in accord with Gloria racing from her position on Elm Street up towards the front steps.
You really are something else ::)
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OF COURSE IT'S SPECULATION!
OF COURSE IT'S A THEORY!
Man, you really are painful to deal with.
The theory that Gloria is the hysterical lady that Smith interacts with is based on the identification of Gloria on the steps in Darnell and Smith running along the Elm Street Extension in Darnell and the fact that their paths would have crossed in the seconds just before the Darnell footage is taken.
It is based on various descriptions of Gloria being so upset that she was in hysterics.
It is based on the fact that there is a hysterical woman in the area near the front steps of the TSBD who knows JFK has been shot at, seconds after the shooting. This is in accord with Gloria's racing from her position on Elm Street up towards the front steps.
You really are something else ::)
Well put.
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I would be more accurate to say that Shelley (who had been "best man" at Calvery's wedding) and maybe his sidekick, Lovelady, saw (and heard!!!) Calvery as she was bawling like a dying calf in a thunderstorm and running up Elm Street towards the TSBD, and he/they decided to intercept her at or near the "island" to find out what the heck had traumatized her so badly.
Do you have a problem with that?
Who said that her audience on the steps consisted solely of Buell Wesley Frazier, anyway?
Okay.
You mean like your grandiose HUGE GATES CT?
It's called progress, Comrade Storing.
There are a multitude of problems with tying Calvery to Officer Smith. For starters, I have Never heard Anyone say that Calvery mentioned shot(s) being fired from the bushes at any point in time after the assassination. Ever. And then, after frantically telling Shelley and Lovelady about the horror she had just witnessed, why would she then permit them to innocently walk right into these bushes "shots fired" area? None of this Calvery telling Officer Smith about shots being fired from the bushes fits then or in the future.
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There are a multitude of problems with tying Calvery to Officer Smith. For starters, I have Never heard Anyone say that Calvery mentioned shot(s) being fired from the bushes at any point in time after the assassination. Ever. And then, after frantically telling Shelley and Lovelady about the horror she had just witnessed, why would she then permit them to innocently walk right into these bushes "shots fired" area? None of this Calvery telling Officer Smith about shots being fired from the bushes fits then or in the future.
Dear Comrade Storing,
We don't know if those are the actual words that Calvery (or some other "hysterical" woman) spoke to Smith.
Regardless, even if they are, your insinuating that some other hysterical woman must have said that to him because "Calvery wouldn't have let him run right into mortal danger like that" doesn't hold water because she probably knew that Smith had a gun, she probably knew that it was his job to arrest violent criminals, and because when Smith left her (or she left him) near the "island," he was already probably running in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot at the end of the Elm Street Extension, i.e., far away from "the bushes" Calvery would have been referring to.
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
We don't know if those are the actual words that Calvery (or some other "hysterical" woman) spoke to Smith.
Regardless, even if they are, your insinuating that some other hysterical woman must have said that to him because "Calvery wouldn't have let him run right into mortal danger like that" doesn't hold water because she probably knew that Smith had a gun, she probably knew that it was his job to arrest violent criminals, and because when Smith left her (or she left him) near the "island," he was already probably running in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot at the end of the Elm Street Extension, i.e., far away from "the bushes" Calvery would have been referring to.
-- Tom
You're confused. I am talking about Calvery telling and then permitting Lovelady and Shelley to just walk into that shots fired area. You and Dan are playing tug-of-war with Calvery. And in doing so, dismantling each other's Calvery "story".
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Another piece of evidence undermining the identification of Shelley and Lovelady on Elm Street.
In the very first seconds of the footage below, the camera pans to the right and we see a police officer quickly making his way along the Elm St Ext to the area where the bushes are near the pergola. This is surely Joe Marshall Smith.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY2C6Bpp/Smith-Darnellcomposite.png) (https://postimages.org/)
If we could 'reverse engineer' the footage, Smith would be interacting with the hysterical woman approximately 5 - 10 seconds before the point we actually see him in Darnell. It fits perfectly with the identification of Gloria on the steps. However, it would be further evidence that Gloria and Hicks have literally just arrived at the steps and have just started to interact with Lovelady and the others.
Once again, we have evidence supporting the view that there is simply not enough time for Lovelady and Shelley to be already walking down the Elm St ext. Smith interacts with Gloria and immediately makes his way along the Elm St ext., as we see in Darnell. In order for your identification to be correct Smith would have to wait in position while Gloria told Lovelady about the shooting and wait for Lovelady and Shelley to cross over to the "little, old island" before he decided to take off.
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You're confused. I am talking about Calvery telling and then permitting Lovelady and Shelley to just walk into that shots fired area. You and Dan are playing tug-of-war with Calvery. And in doing so, dismantling each other's Calvery "story".
Dear Comrade Storing,
Okay, so I confused Shelley and Lovelady with Smith.
My bad.
Nice catch!
Regardless, how could Calvery have prevented "best man" Shelley and his sidekick, Lovelady, from walking/running into "the maws of death" even if she'd wanted to?
Physically detain them?
(Hmm, I see your point. She was a very large gal.)
Conspiracy theorist O'meara and I disagree on where Shelley and Lovelady were right after big/tall Calvery arrived at the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot -- I say they are running/walking down Elm Street Extension toward the "railroad tracks" in Couch-Darnell, and O'meara says they are in front of the steps and on them, respectively.
I honestly don't know -- due to the overall complexity of the situation and to general uncertainty as to when, exactly, Truly and Baker started going up the stairs and when Adams and Styles started coming down them -- whether my Calvery-on-the-steps-and-Shelley-and-Lovelady-bookin'-it-towards-the-railroad-tracks-in-Couch/Darnell observations tend to support or refute the established idea that Oswald was on the sixth floor during the shooting.
On the other hand, I fear that the reason O'meara insists that Lovelady can be seen on the steps while Shelly is pivoting out of the way of hard-charging Baker is because he believes it supports his cockamamie CT (which is almost as cockamamie as yours).
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Okay, so I confused Shelley and Lovelady with Smith.
My bad.
Nice catch!
Regardless, how could Calvery have prevented "best man" Shelley and his sidekick, Lovelady, from walking/running into "the maws of death" even if she'd wanted to?
Physically detain them?
(Hmm, I see your point. She was a very large gal.)
Conspiracy theorist O'meara and I disagree on where Shelley and Lovelady were right after big/tall Calvery arrived at the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot -- I say they are running/walking down Elm Street Extension toward the "railroad tracks" in Couch-Darnell, and O'meara says they are in front of the steps and on them, respectively.
I honestly don't know -- due to the overall complexity of the situation and to general uncertainty as to when, exactly, Truly and Baker started going up the stairs and when Adams and Styles started coming down them -- whether my Calvery-on-the-steps-and-Shelley-and-Lovelady-bookin'-it-towards-the-railroad-tracks-in-Couch/Darnell observations tend to support or refute the established idea that Oswald was on the sixth floor during the shooting.
On the other hand, I fear that the reason O'meara insists that Lovelady can be seen on the steps while Shelly is pivoting out of the way of hard-charging Baker is because he believes it supports his cockamamie CT (which is almost as cockamamie as yours).
-- Tom
I do Not have a "theory". I do Not "speculate". This is exactly what you guys are doing. What I do is present the WC Testimonies of Lovelady & Shelley. The WC lawyer leaned on them regarding their 3 minute claim of waiting in front of the TSBD. They didn't blink. This alleged Calvery interaction with Officer Smith also has absolutely Zero Evidence to support it. Zippo! These expanding and unfounded Calvery claims are now approaching "Slender Man" territory.
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The WC lawyer leaned on Shelley and Lovelady regarding their claim of having waited three minutes in front of the TSBD. They didn't blink.
Dear Comrade Storing,
What reason did Lovelady and/or Shelley give for leaving the steps three minutes after the final shot and starting to [fill in the blank]?
Didn't it have something to do with Calvery's running up to that area about "three minutes" after the final shot and telling them that JFK had been shot?
Given the fact that big/tall, dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Calvery can be seen on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell, do you think it was another running-and-crying gal who did that two-and-a-half-minutes later?
"Best man" Shelley forgot that he and Lovelady had gone from the steps towards the "island" to intercept running-and-crying Calvery at or near "the island" about 15 seconds after the final shot.
Shelley mistakenly believed that Calvery had been standing farther down Elm Street than she had (i.e., about 80 feet from the "island").
At least he remembered walking with Lovelady down Elm Street Extension to the railroad tracks (but he did forget that they went down the sidewalk instead the middle of the street).
. . . . . . .
Mr. BALL - What did it [the shot] sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Company ran back up there crying and said, "The President has been shot," and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street [Elm Street Extension] runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete [“island”] between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? [LOL!]
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. [sic] Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?
Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
[...]
. . . . . . .
William Shelley’s first “Affidavit in Any Fact” to the DPD on 11/22/63
Today approximately 12:30 PM November 22nd, 1963 I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the president in the motorcade. The president's car was almost halfway from Houston St. to the triple underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn't tell where they were coming from. I ran across the street to the corner [i.e., the "island"] of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Cavalry who is an employee of this same building. [After Billy Lovelady and I walked down the Elm Street Extension to the railroad tracks] I [sic; We] went back to the building and went inside and [I, William H. Shelley] called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the 1st floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors. I left Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevator.
-
Dear Comrade Storing,
What reason did Lovelady and/or Shelley give for hanging around the steps / "island" for three minutes before starting to [fill in the blank]?
Didn't it have something to do with Calvery's running up to that area about "three minutes" after the final shot and telling them that JFK had been shot?
Given the fact that big/tall, dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Calvery can be seen on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell, do you think it was another running-and-crying gal who did that two-and-a-half-minutes later?
-- Tom
What happened to Calvery's original 10 second window? Now it's climbed to 25 seconds? Do I hear 30? That's why I say this snowballing speculation is right in line with "Slender Man". How about You stop calling that area an "Island". It is nothing close to resembling an "Island". I don't think a lot of people know specifically what you're talking about when you say "Island".
-
What happened to Calvery's original 10 second window? Now it's climbed to 25 seconds? Do I hear 30? That's why I say this snowballing speculation is right in line with "Slender Man". How about your stop calling that area an "island." It is nothing close to resembling an "island." I don't think a lot of people know specifically what you're talking about when you say "island".
Dear Comrade Storing,
You're confused again.
IIRC, I originally said Calvery reached "The Island" in 10 seconds and . . . gasp . . . I soon thereafter changed it to 15, still giving her enough time to tell Shelley and Lovelady (and Smith?) there that JFK had been shot and reach the steps in time for Couch-Darnell to "capture" her on film there about 25 (or is it 30?) seconds after the assassination, as, yep, Baker is running towards said steps, and, yep, Shelley and Lovelady are approaching your HUGE GATES down Elm Street Extension. (Note: Mark Tyler has her standing about 20 feet closer to the "island" than she really was but compensates for that error by having her pause about three seconds before starting to run towards the "island.")
Is that a problem for you?
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary, from South-Western Publishing Company, ran back up there crying and said, "The President has been shot," and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete [“island”] between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
[...]
-
Dear Comrade Storing,
Okay, so I confused Shelley and Lovelady with Smith.
My bad.
Nice catch!
Regardless, how could Calvery have prevented "best man" Shelley and his sidekick, Lovelady, from walking/running into "the maws of death" even if she'd wanted to?
Physically detain them?
(Hmm, I see your point. She was a very large gal.)
Conspiracy theorist O'meara and I disagree on where Shelley and Lovelady were right after big/tall Calvery arrived at the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot -- I say they are running/walking down Elm Street Extension toward the "railroad tracks" in Couch-Darnell, and O'meara says they are in front of the steps and on them, respectively.
I honestly don't know -- due to the overall complexity of the situation and to general uncertainty as to when, exactly, Truly and Baker started going up the stairs and when Adams and Styles started coming down them -- whether my Calvery-on-the-steps-and-Shelley-and-Lovelady-bookin'-it-towards-the-railroad-tracks-in-Couch/Darnell observations tend to support or refute the established idea that Oswald was on the sixth floor during the shooting.
On the other hand, I fear that the reason O'meara insists that Lovelady can be seen on the steps while Shelly is pivoting out of the way of hard-charging Baker is because he believes it supports his cockamamie CT (which is almost as cockamamie as yours).
-- Tom
On the other hand, I fear that the reason O'meara insists that Lovelady can be seen on the steps while Shelly is pivoting out of the way of hard-charging Baker is because he believes it supports his cockamamie CT
I've presented numerous reasons why I believe it's Lovelady on the steps and why it's not Joe Molina, as you insist.
You've refused to take part in any kind of debate about it because you know you're wrong.
Insulting me in posts to other people is cowardly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzK3VBXj/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Joe Molina was wearing a white shirt. The man interacting with Gloria is not.
Molina stated his interaction with Gloria was in the lobby.
Lovelady stated his interaction with Gloria was on the steps.
Get over it.
-
On the other hand, I fear that the reason O'meara insists that Lovelady can be seen on the steps while Shelly is pivoting out of the way of hard-charging Baker is because he believes it supports his cockamamie CT
I've presented numerous reasons why I believe it's Lovelady on the steps and why it's not Joe Molina, as you insist.
You've refused to take part in any kind of debate about it because you know you're wrong.
Insulting me in posts to other people is cowardly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzK3VBXj/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Joe Molina was wearing a white shirt. The man interacting with Gloria is not.
Molina stated his interaction with Gloria was in the lobby.
Lovelady stated his interaction with Gloria was on the steps.
Get over it.
Dear Danny Boy,
Please do me a favor and scroll about 1/4 of the way down and tell me who it is that has a "male pattern" bald spot, is wearing the bold-striped shirt, and is walking down Elm Street Extension about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Thanks.
-- Tom
PS No, I'm not a "Prayer Man" CT.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
-
Dear Danny Boy,
Please do me a favor and scroll about 1/4 of the way down and tell me who it is that has a "male pattern" bald spot, is wearing the bold-striped shirt, and is walking down Elm Street Extension about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Thanks.
-- Tom
PS No, I'm not a "Prayer Man" CT.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
(https://i.postimg.cc/50yCK1V1/shelleyloveladyelm.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I'm fully aware of the image you are referring to and I understand why it is so compelling.
I don't dispute this for a second.
And I'm also fully aware that you are a Lone Nutter and not a Prayer Man advocate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzK3VBXj/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Joe Molina was wearing a white shirt.
The man in the image above is not wearing a white shirt (note how the white outfit of Karan Hicks stands out)
If anything his shirt shows hints of a checkered pattern (it's a pity Kemp didn't work his magic on this part of the Darnell footage).
Molina stated that his interaction with Gloria occurred in the lobby of the TSBD building.
Do you agree that the man in the image above cannot be Joe Molina, based on the colour of the shirt and his WC testimony?
Remember, if you happen to agree with any point I make it doesn't mean I've 'won' or 'scored a point'. I've agreed that the Kemp image is really compelling in terms of an identification, but there is more evidence to consider than just that image.
Is it possible to have a rational, reasonable debate about this issue?
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/50yCK1V1/shelleyloveladyelm.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I'm fully aware of the image you are referring to and I understand why it is so compelling.
I don't dispute this for a second.
And I'm also fully aware that you are a Lone Nutter and not a Prayer Man advocate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzK3VBXj/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Joe Molina was wearing a white shirt.
The man in the image above is not wearing a white shirt (note how the white outfit of Karan Hicks stands out)
If anything his shirt shows hints of a checkered pattern (it's a pity Kemp didn't work his magic on this part of the Darnell footage).
Molina stated that his interaction with Gloria occurred in the lobby of the TSBD building.
Do you agree that the man in the image above cannot be Joe Molina, based on the colour of the shirt and his WC testimony?
Remember, if you happen to agree with any point I make it doesn't mean I've 'won' or 'scored a point'. I've agreed that the Kemp image is really compelling in terms of an identification, but there is more evidence to consider than just that image.
Is it possible to have a rational, reasonable debate about this issue?
Dear Danny Boy,
I couldn't care less who that person was.
The important thing is that it wasn't Billy Lovelady, because Lovelady was about 80 feet away, walking down Elm Street Extension towards the railroad tracks when this image was "captured" by Couch-Darnell.
Btw, I think your "Shelley" is Ochus Campbell.
-- Tom
-
Dear Danny Boy,
I couldn't care less who that person was.
The important thing is that it wasn't Billy Lovelady, because Lovelady was about 80 feet away, walking down Elm Street Extension towards the railroad tracks when this image was "captured" by Couch-Darnell.
Btw, I think your "Shelley" is Ochus Campbell.
-- Tom
I couldn't care less who that person was.
:D
-
I couldn't care less who that person was.
:D
I couldn't care less who that person was.
(Sorry to hurt your feelings, Danny Boy.)
-
I couldn't care less who that person was.
(Sorry to hurt your feelings, Danny Boy.)
You're obviously unfamiliar with what a laughing emoji means, thomas.
It was the perfect Nutter response and I wish a few more people were as refreshingly honest.
So many 'researchers' pretend to be influenced by the evidence and that they are open to genuine debate. So much time is wasted engaging with people who's mind has been made up regardless of the evidence and any arguments emanating from that evidence.
Your honesty cuts through all that and saves everyone a whole lot of time.
It's much appreciated Thumb1:
-
Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
This is one of Shelley's lies that isn't supported by any interpretation of the Darnell footage.
Shelley's insistence, that he was stood on the island when he saw Truly and Baker at the front of the building, is only explained as part of the series of lies he tells about his and Lovelady's movements after the shooting.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
His insistence that it was at least 3 minutes before he saw Truly and Baker about to enter the building is one of his more blatant lies that is easily refuted by Darnell (and easily ignored by those who don't care about the evidence).
What is more unusual is his insistence that he stayed on the steps until Gloria came running up in his WC testimony. This is a lie revealed by his same-day affidavit, where he ran across the Elm St Ext and met Gloria there. It seems to be part of Shelley and Lovelady making sure they're 'singing from the same hymn sheet':
Both are on the steps when the shooting takes place.
Both stay there til Gloria comes running up.
Both say it took her at least 3 minutes to get there.
After Gloria both make their way across to what both refer to as the "little, old island".
Both stay there for at least one minute before they both make their way along the Elm St Ext to the railroad yards (something both men neglect to mention in their same-day affidavits).
The only slip-up is when Shelley says they are on the little, old island when they both see Truly and Baker about to enter the building whereas Lovelady says they were walking along the Elm St Ext when he turned and saw them (something also missing from Darnell).
-
From Vicki's Feb '64 interview with Jim Leavelle,
"Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill."
Until Barry Ernest, Vicki is consistent that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the shooting. She ran all the way down the stairs and out the north loading dock door. She was on the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the last shot and saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators on the first floor.
The WC Sham used the easily disprovable lies of Shelley and Lovelady to discredit Vicki's account of her descent from the fourth floor. Even though these lies flatly contradicted the time trials conducted by the Sham involving Baker and Truly (something Vicki's account did not do).
So, let's take Vicki at her word and see where that takes us.
1] The pic taken by Tom Dillard approximately 10 - 15 seconds after the head shot showing the empty 4th floor window where Vicki and her colleagues makes sense. Vicki had decided to head downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass. She and Sandra have raced off followed by Garner. which is why the window is empty seconds after the shooting.
2] The Stroud document makes sense. The only way Vicki and Sandra could make it down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs, without either party encountering the other, is for Vicki to head off within in seconds of the head shot, race all the way down and be through the loading dock door before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators.
3] Baker's observation of two white men in the area near the elevators makes sense as being Shelley and Lovelady.
4] The affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady make sense. When taken at face value, the two men never made their way along the Elm St Ext., never hung around the railroad yards and never re-entered the building through the west door. After Shelley ran across the street and returned, both men immediately re-entered the TSBD building and made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Lovelady.
5] The Baker/Truly time trials make sense. The 3 minute lie, told by both Shelley and Truly can now be ignored. Baker and Truly were not still outside the building over 3 minutes after the shooting.
6] The Darnell footage makes sense. It confirms that Baker had arrived at the bottom of the steps within a few seconds of the shots supporting the time trials and refuting the lies of Shelley and Lovelady. It confirms the accounts of both Lovelady and Frazier regarding Gloria returning to the steps and telling everyone about the shooting.
This still from Darnell shows the moment Gloria is interacting with Lovelady on the steps. Shelley has just returned from across the street. This image is taken around 30 seconds after the head shot. Vicki is already on the stairs. Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady are all about to enter the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady immediately make their way to the back of the first floor followed seconds later by Truly and Baker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If we accept Vicki's version of events there are two questions that need answering:
Why did Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
Why did they feel the need to race toward the back of the first floor?
-
Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
This is one of Shelley's lies that isn't supported by any interpretation of the Darnell footage.
Shelley's insistence, that he was stood on the island when he saw Truly and Baker at the front of the building, is only explained as part of the series of lies he tells about his and Lovelady's movements after the shooting.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
His insistence that it was at least 3 minutes before he saw Truly and Baker about to enter the building is one of his more blatant lies that is easily refuted by Darnell (and easily ignored by those who don't care about the evidence).
What is more unusual is his insistence that he stayed on the steps until Gloria came running up in his WC testimony. This is a lie revealed by his same-day affidavit, where he ran across the Elm St Ext and met Gloria there. It seems to be part of Shelley and Lovelady making sure they're 'singing from the same hymn sheet':
Both are on the steps when the shooting takes place.
Both stay there til Gloria comes running up.
Both say it took her at least 3 minutes to get there.
After Gloria both make their way across to what both refer to as the "little, old island".
Both stay there for at least one minute before they both make their way along the Elm St Ext to the railroad yards (something both men neglect to mention in their same-day affidavits).
The only slip-up is when Shelley says they are on the little, old island when they both see Truly and Baker about to enter the building whereas Lovelady says they were walking along the Elm St Ext when he turned and saw them (something also missing from Darnell).
That was no "slip-up". Shelley was Q/A'd about when he saw Baker/Truly approaching the TSBD. Shelley's testimony was very consistent. Same goes for Lovelady.
Again, I believe this ALL traces back to Wiegman capturing the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass on his film. Those images of the JFK Limo mandated ALL of these timelines currently under discussion. Why do you think the WC did 3 trial runs with Officer Baker turning his motorcycle onto Houston and then progressing on foot into the TSBD? With the NOW released opening half of the Original Darnell Film showing ALL 3 Camera Cars at a Dead Stop, and the driver of one of those cars standing outside of the vehicle, it is now obvious that the timeline of those cars is Wrong, along with the timeline of Wiegman and the images on his film. If you are on the freeway and the traffic in front of you slows to a crawl and then suddenly comes to a STOP, how long do you sit inside your car before getting out of it and looking around to see what is causing the holdup? Put yourself in the shoes of that guy driving the camera car and our seeing him standing outside of the car on the Orginal Darnell Film.
-
That was no "slip-up". Shelley was Q/A'd about when he saw Baker/Truly approaching the TSBD. Shelley's testimony was very consistent. Same goes for Lovelady.
You've misunderstood the point being made.
Shelley and Lovelady had 'rehearsed' all the details of their WC testimonies. This was the only slip up between their two testimonies. Shelley even spoke for both men during this part of his testimony:
Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL. And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building7
Mr. SHELLEY. No; we didn’t watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin’ to go in.
Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes.
Apparently Shelley knew exactly what Lovelady did and saw at this moment.
As I say, Lovelady slipped up over this detail and testified he was walking toward the railway tracks (along the Elm St Ext) when he turned round and saw Baker and Truly running into the building
Again, I believe this ALL traces back to Wiegman capturing the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass on his film. Those images of the JFK Limo mandated ALL of these timelines currently under discussion. Why do you think the WC did 3 trial runs with Officer Baker turning his motorcycle onto Houston and then progressing on foot into the TSBD? With the NOW released opening half of the Original Darnell Film showing ALL 3 Camera Cars at a Dead Stop, and the driver of one of those cars standing outside of the vehicle, it is now obvious that the timeline of those cars is Wrong, along with the timeline of Wiegman and the images on his film. If you are on the freeway and the traffic in front of you slows to a crawl and then suddenly comes to a STOP, how long do you sit inside your car before getting out of it and looking around to see what is causing the holdup? Put yourself in the shoes of that guy driving the camera car and our seeing him standing outside of the car on the Orginal Darnell Film.
Again, I believe this ALL traces back to Wiegman capturing the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass on his film
You're free to believe whatever you want.
-
From Vicki's Feb '64 interview with Jim Leavelle,
"Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill."
Until Barry Ernest, Vicki is consistent that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the shooting. She ran all the way down the stairs and out the north loading dock door. She was on the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the last shot and saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators on the first floor.
The WC Sham used the easily disprovable lies of Shelley and Lovelady to discredit Vicki's account of her descent from the fourth floor. Even though these lies flatly contradicted the time trials conducted by the Sham involving Baker and Truly (something Vicki's account did not do).
So, let's take Vicki at her word and see where that takes us.
1] The pic taken by Tom Dillard approximately 10 - 15 seconds after the head shot showing the empty 4th floor window where Vicki and her colleagues makes sense. Vicki had decided to head downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass. She and Sandra have raced off followed by Garner. which is why the window is empty seconds after the shooting.
2] The Stroud document makes sense. The only way Vicki and Sandra could make it down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs, without either party encountering the other, is for Vicki to head off within in seconds of the head shot, race all the way down and be through the loading dock door before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators.
3] Baker's observation of two white men in the area near the elevators makes sense as being Shelley and Lovelady.
4] The affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady make sense. When taken at face value, the two men never made their way along the Elm St Ext., never hung around the railroad yards and never re-entered the building through the west door. After Shelley ran across the street and returned, both men immediately re-entered the TSBD building and made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Lovelady.
5] The Baker/Truly time trials make sense. The 3 minute lie, told by both Shelley and Truly can now be ignored. Baker and Truly were not still outside the building over 3 minutes after the shooting.
6] The Darnell footage makes sense. It confirms that Baker had arrived at the bottom of the steps within a few seconds of the shots supporting the time trials and refuting the lies of Shelley and Lovelady. It confirms the accounts of both Lovelady and Frazier regarding Gloria returning to the steps and telling everyone about the shooting.
This still from Darnell shows the moment Gloria is interacting with Lovelady on the steps. Shelley has just returned from across the street. This image is taken around 30 seconds after the head shot. Vicki is already on the stairs. Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady are all about to enter the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady immediately make their way to the back of the first floor followed seconds later by Truly and Baker.
If we accept Vicki's version of events there are two questions that need answering:
Why did Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
Why did they feel the need to race toward the back of the first floor?
You wrote: "The two men [Shelley and Lovelady] never made their way along the Elm Street Extension, never hung around the railroad yards, and never re-entered the building through the west [or rear] door."
Why, then, did they say that they did, and why was distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady (and slender, suit-wearing Shelley?) captured in the Couch-Darnell film about 25 seconds after the final shot as he's walking / running towards the railroad yard down Elm Street Extension?
Hmm?
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You wrote: "The two men [Shelley and Lovelady] never made their way along the Elm Street Extension, never hung around the railroad yards, and never re-entered the building through the west [or rear] door."
Why, then, did they say that they did, and why was distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady (and slender, suit-wearing Shelley?) captured in the Couch-Darnell film about 25 seconds after the final shot as he's walking / running towards the railroad yard down Elm Street Extension?
Hmm?
The key to the Lovelady WC Testimony is his revealing anyone could walk from that back dock ALL the way Straight Through/Into the TSBD 1st floor. Or, walk from the TSBD 1st Floor straight through to the Back Dock. I have tried to lay it out for you guys, but I guess I am going to have to Spell-It-Out. The Bushes through which "they" allegedly fired shot(s), DPD Officer Smith, and the Elm St Ext, ALL were within FEET of the "wide open" Huge Gates leading into/out of the TSBD 1st floor.
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The key to the Lovelady WC testimony is his revealing anyone could walk from that back dock all the way straight through/into the TSBD 1st floor. or walk from the TSBD 1st floor straight through to the back dock. I have tried to lay it out for you guys, but I guess I am going to have to spell-it-out. The bushes through which "they" allegedly fired shot(s), DPD Officer Smith, and the Elm Street Extension, all were within feet of the wide open Huge Gates leading into/out of the TSBD 1st floor.
Dear "Useful You-Know-What" Storing,
Which bushes do you think they shot from -- the poinsettias or the roses?
-- Tom
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And as I pointed out previously, in the affidavit filed by Bill Newman the day of the shooting, he claimed that shot(s) were fired from, "the garden". I take "the garden" to mean these very same bushes extending down the Elm St Ext within feet of the "wide open" Huge Gates. Think of how few images there is of the Elm St Ext immediately following the Kill Shot. DPD Officer Smith ran down the Elm St Ext, but his attention was focused (W) on the bushes. Lovelady and Shelley testified that they went down the Elm St Ext, but that was 3+ minutes after the Kill Shot. And there is even more specifically tied to this same area.
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You wrote: "The two men [Shelley and Lovelady] never made their way along the Elm Street Extension, never hung around the railroad yards, and never re-entered the building through the west [or rear] door."
Why, then, did they say that they did, and why was distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady (and slender, suit-wearing Shelley?) captured in the Couch-Darnell film about 25 seconds after the final shot as he's walking / running towards the railroad yard down Elm Street Extension?
Hmm?
Why, then, did they say that they did,
You have a terrible habit of not properly reading the Reply's you are responding to, thomas.
Go back and read the post properly.
why was distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady (and slender, suit-wearing Shelley?) captured in the Couch-Darnell film about 25 seconds after the final shot as he's walking / running towards the railroad yard down Elm Street Extension?
They weren't.
The narrative you are trying uphold is so weak you have resorted to making things up that are flatly refuted by the evidence (such as both Lovelady and Shelley meeting Gloria on the island that's not an island).
Read the post properly.
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Bumped for thomas to read properly
From Vicki's Feb '64 interview with Jim Leavelle,
"Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill."
Until Barry Ernest, Vicki is consistent that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the shooting. She ran all the way down the stairs and out the north loading dock door. She was on the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the last shot and saw Lovelady and Shelley near the elevators on the first floor.
The WC Sham used the easily disprovable lies of Shelley and Lovelady to discredit Vicki's account of her descent from the fourth floor. Even though these lies flatly contradicted the time trials conducted by the Sham involving Baker and Truly (something Vicki's account did not do).
So, let's take Vicki at her word and see where that takes us.
1] The pic taken by Tom Dillard approximately 10 - 15 seconds after the head shot showing the empty 4th floor window where Vicki and her colleagues makes sense. Vicki had decided to head downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass. She and Sandra have raced off followed by Garner. which is why the window is empty seconds after the shooting.
2] The Stroud document makes sense. The only way Vicki and Sandra could make it down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs, without either party encountering the other, is for Vicki to head off within in seconds of the head shot, race all the way down and be through the loading dock door before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators.
3] Baker's observation of two white men in the area near the elevators makes sense as being Shelley and Lovelady.
4] The affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady make sense. When taken at face value, the two men never made their way along the Elm St Ext., never hung around the railroad yards and never re-entered the building through the west door. After Shelley ran across the street and returned, both men immediately re-entered the TSBD building and made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Lovelady.
5] The Baker/Truly time trials make sense. The 3 minute lie, told by both Shelley and Truly can now be ignored. Baker and Truly were not still outside the building over 3 minutes after the shooting.
6] The Darnell footage makes sense. It confirms that Baker had arrived at the bottom of the steps within a few seconds of the shots supporting the time trials and refuting the lies of Shelley and Lovelady. It confirms the accounts of both Lovelady and Frazier regarding Gloria returning to the steps and telling everyone about the shooting.
This still from Darnell shows the moment Gloria is interacting with Lovelady on the steps. Shelley has just returned from across the street. This image is taken around 30 seconds after the head shot. Vicki is already on the stairs. Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady are all about to enter the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady immediately make their way to the back of the first floor followed seconds later by Truly and Baker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If we accept Vicki's version of events there are two questions that need answering:
Why did Shelley and Lovelady lie about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
Why did they feel the need to race toward the back of the first floor?
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Why, then, did Shelley and Lovelady say that they did go down Elm Street Extension to the "first railroad track"?
You have a terrible habit of not properly reading the reply's you are responding to, Thomas. Go back and read the post properly.
Nice gaslighting / trolling job, Danny Boy.
Why was distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady (and slender, suit-wearing Shelley?) captured in the Couch-Darnell film about 25 seconds after the final shot as he's walking / running towards the railroad yard down Elm Street Extension?
They weren't.
Lovelady was, and probably slender, suit-wearing Shelley, too, Mister Magoo.
The narrative you are trying to uphold is so weak you have resorted to making things up that are flatly refuted by the evidence -- such as both Lovelady and Shelley met Gloria Calvery on the island that's not an island.
Lots of people referred to that concrete area directly across from the steps that had the traffic signs and which divided Elm Street proper from Elm Street Extension as "the island."
In fifty words or less, what would you call it, Mr. Semanticist?
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Dear Danny Boy O'meara,
How do you know your "Shelley" isn't Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company, Ochus V. Campbell?
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/ochus-virgil-campbell/
-- Tom
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Nice gaslighting / trolling job, Danny Boy.
Why was distinctive-shirt-wearing / bald-spot-sporting Lovelady (and slender, suit-wearing Shelley?) captured in the Couch-Darnell film about 25 seconds after the final shot as he's walking / running towards the railroad yard down Elm Street Extension?
Lovelady was, and probably slender, suit-wearing Shelley, too, Mister Magoo.
Lots of people referred to that concrete area directly across from the steps that had the traffic signs and which divided Elm Street proper from Elm Street Extension as "the island."
In fifty words or less, what would you call it, Mr. Semanticist?
Lovelady was, and probably slender, suit-wearing Shelley, too, Mister Magoo.
No, they weren't.
Your 'it looks like Lovelady to me' schtick doesn't mean anything because it's refuted by the very evidence you couldn't care less about (hey...maybe that's why you don't care about it!)
That's why you've been trying to make the identification stick by 'fabricating' scenarios.
PS: the Grok thing is starting to make you look a little silly. Just sayin'
PPS: stop crying about gaslighting and read the posts properly.
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Lovelady (and probably slender, 5' 9", suit-wearing Shelley) were "captured" by Couch-Darnell as they were walking/running towards "the first railroad track" just as they said they did after speaking with Gloria Calvery (whom we can see on the steps in the same clip), about 25 seconds after the final shot.
No, they weren't.
LOL, Mister Magoo!
PS How do you know your "Shelley" isn't Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company, Ochus V. Campbell, who was standing in front of the steps near Truly during the motorcade?
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LOL, Mister Magoo!
:D
Top level debating Mr Mitty.
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[...]
Bumped for Mister Magoo, I mean Danny Boy O'meara:
Lovelady (and probably slender, 5' 9", suit-wearing Shelley) were "captured" by Couch-Darnell as they were walking/running towards "the first railroad track" just as they said they did after speaking with Gloria Calvery (whom we can see on the steps in the same clip), about 25 seconds after the final shot.
No, they weren't.
LOL, Mister Magoo!
PS How do you know your "Shelley" isn't Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company, Ochus V. Campbell, who was standing in front of the steps near Truly during the motorcade?
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You guys reliance on Blurry images is why you are having problems agreeing who is who. Including Calvery.
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You guys' reliance on blurry images is why you are having problems agreeing who is who, including Calvery.
Dear Comrade Storing,
You're the only one who doesn't agree that that's big/tall dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery standing on (or going up) the steps next to her dressed-all-in-white colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed, about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Sounds like wishful thinking or trolling on your part.
-- Tom
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Bumped for Mister Magoo, I mean Danny Boy O'meara:
Lovelady (and probably slender, 5' 9", suit-wearing Shelley) were "captured" by Couch-Darnell as they were walking/running towards "the first railroad track" just as they said they did after speaking with Gloria Calvery (whom we can see on the steps in the same clip), about 25 seconds after the final shot.
No, they weren't.
LOL, Mister Magoo!
PS How do you know your "Shelley" isn't Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company, Ochus V. Campbell, who was standing in front of the steps near Truly during the motorcade?
No offence, thomas, but the fact you openly admit you couldn't care less about the evidence, your recent strategy of simply 'fabricating' scenarios and your reliance on Grok has really damaged your credibility.
You never really engage in debate anyway and disappear the second you have to.
I'm not sure what the tinfoil equivalent of a LNer is, but you're it, and I really can be bothered with you.
The identification of Shelley at the bottom of the steps follows seamlessly from the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
I've moved on from your childish insistence that 'it looks like Lovelady to me' and am now dealing with the evidence you couldn't care less about.
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Dear thomas,
The identification of Shelley at the bottom of the steps follows seamlessly from the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
I've moved on from your childish insistence that 'it looks like Lovelady to me' and am now dealing with the evidence you couldn't care less about.
[/quote]
Dear dan o'meara,
The evidence, supported by Shelley's and Lovelady's statements, is that they can be seen in Couch-Darnell, walking / running down Elm Stree Extension towards "the first railroad track" about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Your "Shelley" is probably Ochus V. Campbell, Vice President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company. He was standing in front of the steps, near Roy Truly (who can also be seen standing in front of the steps in Couch-Darnell), during the motorcade.
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No offence, thomas, but the identification of Shelley at the bottom of the steps follows seamlessly from the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
Dear dan o'meara,
Your identification of Lovelady on the steps is based on highly dubious witness statements.
Your "Shelly" is probably Ochus V. Campbell, Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company, who was standing in front of the steps near Roy Truly (who can also be seen standing in front of the steps in Couch-Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot, watching Baker run past him to the steps).
-- Tom
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Dear thomas,
The identification of Shelley at the bottom of the steps follows seamlessly from the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
I've moved on from your childish insistence that 'it looks like Lovelady to me' and am now dealing with the evidence you couldn't care less about.
Dear dan o'meara,
The evidence, supported by Shelley's and Lovelady's statements, is that they can be seen in Couch-Darnell, walking / running down Elm Stree Extension towards "the first railroad track" about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Your "Shelley" is probably Ochus V. Campbell, Vice President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company. He was standing in front of the steps, near Roy Truly (who can also be seen standing in front of the steps in Couch-Darnell), during the motorcade.
:D :D
You need to lay off the sauce and get some sleep.
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You need to lay off the sauce and get some sleep.
Dear dan o'meara,
You need to read this again and then go get lost:
Your "identification" of Lovelady on the steps is based on a barely recognizable human face in Couch-Darnell and highly dubious witness statements. Your pivoting "Shelly" is probably Ochus V. Campbell, Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company. Campbell was standing in front of the steps near Roy Truly (who can also be seen standing in front of the steps in Couch-Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot, watching Baker run past him to the steps) during the motorcade.
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Dear dan o'meara,
You need to read this again and then go get lost:
Your "identification" of Lovelady on the steps is based on a barely recognizable human face in Couch-Darnell and highly dubious witness statements. Your pivoting "Shelly" is probably Ochus V. Campbell, Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company. Campbell was standing in front of the steps near Roy Truly (who can also be seen standing in front of the steps in Couch-Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot, watching Baker run past him to the steps) during the motorcade.
Like I said, "Blurry Images". Same stuff we went through with Lovelady being mistakenly ID'd as Oswald on the Altgens Photo. Just wait on these images being cleaned up. There's people probably sitting on better images right now. Just like we saw with the Z Film, Wiegman Film, Couch Film, and Darnell Film. You guys never learn.
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Dear dan o'meara,
You need to read this again and then go get lost:
Your "identification" of Lovelady on the steps is based on a barely recognizable human face in Couch-Darnell and highly dubious witness statements. Your pivoting "Shelly" is probably Ochus V. Campbell, Vice-President and Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company. Campbell was standing in front of the steps near Roy Truly (who can also be seen standing in front of the steps in Couch-Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot, watching Baker run past him to the steps) during the motorcade.
Your "identification" of Lovelady on the steps is based on a barely recognizable human face in Couch-Darnell and highly dubious witness statements.
If you cared about the evidence and read the posts properly you'd see this is not correct.
This is just your ranting opinion yet again.
Based on nothing more than 'what you think' is the case.
There is no challenge of the evidence I've put forward or the arguments emanating from that evidence.
Just thomas stamping his little foot and insisting 'it ain't so'.
Who do you think you are?
Just because you think you can insist something is the case without providing any supporting evidence, you expect everyone else to accept it and get upset when they don't.
Your identification of Lovelady has been blown out of the water by almost every single piece of evidence that has any bearing on this matter. But you don't care about the evidence, about what it means and how it refutes your 'it looks like Lovelady to me' routine.
You have no interest in debate or discussion so why don't you get lost.
Why don't you just run along.
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Like I said, "Blurry Images". Same stuff we went through with Lovelady being mistakenly ID'd as Oswald on the Altgens Photo. Just wait on these images being cleaned up. There's people probably sitting on better images right now. Just like we saw with the Z Film, Wiegman Film, Couch Film, and Darnell Film. You guys never learn.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you deny that Gloria Calvery can be seen on the steps in Couch-Darnell?
-- Tom
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Your "identification" of Lovelady on the steps is based on a barely recognizable human face in Couch-Darnell and highly dubious witness statements.
Just thomas, stamping his little foot and insisting 'it ain't so'.
6' 3", 250, size 15.
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Dear danny boy o'meara, Your "identification" of Lovelady on the steps is based on a barely recognizable human face in Couch-Darnell and highly dubious witness statements.
danny boy o'meara's reply: "Waaaah!"
Me: Are there any affidavits, official statements or testimonies by witnesses that tend to place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near (i.e., not about 60 feet away from the steps as they appear to be in Couch-Darnell) the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Grok:
Overview
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot (consistent with their apparent positions ~60 feet west in the Couch and Darnell films). Instead, available records indicate they left the steps almost immediately after the shots (within 15-20 seconds) and moved west toward the railroad yards and triple underpass area. Their initial affidavits (November 22, 1963) imply a quicker re-entry to the building than their later Warren Commission (WC) testimonies, but neither version supports their remaining on or near the steps at the ~25-second mark. Later accounts (FBI interviews, WC testimonies) describe a brief excursion outside before returning via a side door after 5-10 minutes (or longer per HSCA interview). The Warren Report reconciles this by estimating their return at several minutes post-shots, but photographic evidence (Couch/Darnell) aligns with an early departure.
Key Statements by Lovelady and Shelley
The following table summarizes their primary statements, focusing on post-shot movements and timing. All are official (affidavits to Dallas Police Department [DPD] or FBI; WC/HSCA testimonies).
(Matrix) Source/Date Speaker Key Excerpt on Post-Shot Location/Timing Implication for ~25 Seconds Post-Shot
DPD Affidavit, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:0, web:1, web:38, web:44, web:56]
Billy Lovelady
"When the President's car passed... shots were heard... After it was over we went back into the building and went to work" (handwritten version, with "went to work" struck through in typed report).
Implies immediate re-entry to TSBD front (steps area) after shots; no mention of leaving steps or excursion. Does not specify duration but suggests presence near steps/building shortly after.
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:0, web:52]
Billy Lovelady
"Immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away... They stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side." (CE 1381, March 1964 version echoes this).
They left steps immediately, ran ~50-100 feet west (toward Elm St./underpass), stayed 5 minutes, re-entered west side. Not on/near steps at 25 seconds.
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:3, web:15, web:22, web:54]
Billy Lovelady
"After the shots... Gloria Calvery ran up... Billy Lovelady and [Shelley] took off across the street... walked down to the first railroad track... watched them searching cars... then we came in through our parking lot at the west end." Estimates Truly/Baker entered building 3-4 minutes after shots.
Left steps immediately after Calvery's alert (~10-15 seconds post-shots), walked west ~60-100 feet to railroad area. Not on/near steps at 25 seconds; return unspecified but after several minutes.
HSCA Interview, 1978 [web:8, web:27, web:29, web:30, web:35]
Billy Lovelady
After Calvery's alert [that JFK had been shot], left for railroad yard; "it took 20-25 minutes before got back in the building."
Extended time outside (west of steps); contradicts earlier affidavits. Clearly not on/near steps at 25 seconds.
DPD Affidavit, Nov. 22, 1963
William Shelley
"I heard gunshots... ran across the street to the corner of the park [~45 feet west]... went back to the building and went inside and called my wife."
Immediate movement west (~45 feet from steps), then quick re-entry to front building (implies steps area). No explicit excursion; suggests near steps/building shortly after.
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:15, web:45]
William Shelley
Similar to Lovelady's: Ran toward car, stayed in area ~5 minutes, re-entered west side door.
Left steps immediately, west ~50-100 feet, 5-minute stay outside. Not on/near steps at 25 seconds.
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:4, web:15, web:45, web:48]
William Shelley
Echoes Lovelady: After Calvery (10-15 seconds post-shots), crossed street to "little old island" (60 feet west), then to railroad track; watched searches, re-entered west parking lot. Estimates 3-4 minutes until Truly/Baker entered front.
Left steps immediately, moved west ~60 feet (matches Couch/Darnell positions). Not on/near steps at 25 seconds; return after several minutes.
Analysis and Reconciliation in Official Reports
Warren Report (1964) [web:17, web:48]: States Shelley and Lovelady "moved out into the street" after Calvery's alert, then to railroad yards; re-entered "several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance." Cites their WC testimonies but notes initial affidavits' vagueness on excursion. Concludes they were not on steps post-shots but returned before Victoria Adams' alleged first-floor encounter (~1-2 minutes post-shots). No mention of 25-second timing.
Timing Discrepancies: Initial affidavits (day-of) suggest faster re-entry (potentially placing them near steps/building within 1 minute), but WC/HSCA versions extend time outside to 5-25 minutes. Researchers (e.g., Harold Weisberg [web:0, web:9]) argue WC testimonies were altered to align with Oswald's timeline, but photographic evidence (Couch: Baker running toward TSBD ~25 seconds post-shot; Shelley/Lovelady visible ~60 feet west) supports immediate departure [web:8, web:22].
No Supporting Witness Testimonies: No third-party affidavits/testimonies place them on/near steps at ~25 seconds. WC/HSCA witnesses (e.g., Sarah Stanton, Buell Frazier) confirm their pre-shot presence on steps but not post-shot [web:10, web:32]. Victoria Adams' WC testimony mentions seeing them on first floor ~1 minute post-shots, but she later recanted this (added without permission; corroborated by Sandra Styles as absent) [web:20, web:23, web:40]. No other witnesses (e.g., Truly, Baker) reference them near steps at that time.
In summary, evidence points to Shelley and Lovelady leaving the steps within seconds of the final shot, positioning them ~60 feet west by ~25 seconds (as in Couch/Darnell), not on or very near the steps. Initial affidavits hint at quicker return but do not contradict this movement.
. . . . . . .
Me: What FBI interviews or witness testimonies have them not reentering the building via a side or rear door until 5-10 minutes after the final shot?
Grok: The following FBI interviews and witness testimonies explicitly state or imply that Billy Lovelady and William Shelley did not re-enter the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) via a side or rear door until approximately 5-10 minutes after the final shot. All sources are official (FBI reports or Warren Commission [WC] testimonies), and I’ve focused on those directly addressing their re-entry timing and location.
Key FBI Interviews and Witness Testimonies
Source/Date
Speaker
Key Excerpt on Re-Entry Timing/Location
Notes on Timing and Re-Entry
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 (CE 1381, reiterated March 1964) [web:0, web:52]
Billy Lovelady
"Immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away... They stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side."
Explicitly states ~5 minutes outside before re-entering via west side door. Supports 5-minute delay before re-entry, not via front entrance.
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:15, web:45]
William Shelley
Similar to Lovelady’s account: After hearing shots, ran toward the presidential car, stayed in the area for approximately 5 minutes, then re-entered through the west side door.
Matches Lovelady’s timeline; ~5 minutes outside, re-entry via west side door (not front steps).
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:3, web:15, web:22, web:54]
Billy Lovelady
After Gloria Calvery’s alert (~10-15 seconds post-shots), "me and Bill Shelley took off across the street... walked down to the first railroad track... watched them searching cars... then we came in through our parking lot at the west end." Estimates Roy Truly and Officer Baker entered the building 3-4 minutes after shots.
Implies 5-10 minutes outside (based on observing searches and movement to railroad yards) before re-entering via west parking lot (side/rear door). Timing aligns with ~5-10 minutes post-shots for re-entry.
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:4, web:15, web:45, web:48]
William Shelley
After Calvery’s alert, crossed street to the "little old island" (~60 feet west), then to railroad tracks; watched police search cars, then re-entered via west parking lot. Estimates Truly and Baker entered front entrance ~3-4 minutes post-shots.
Suggests ~5-10 minutes outside (consistent with Lovelady’s account and search observation) before re-entering via west side/rear door. Not via front steps.
Additional Context and Notes
HSCA Interview, 1978 (Lovelady) [web:8, web:27, web:29, web:30, web:35]: Lovelady claimed he and Shelley stayed outside for 20-25 minutes before re-entering, which extends beyond the 5-10 minute range. This contradicts earlier statements but reinforces re-entry via a side/rear door (west side), not the front steps.
Warren Report (1964) [web:17, web:48]: Summarizes that Shelley and Lovelady moved west to the railroad yards after Calvery’s alert and re-entered “several minutes” after Truly and Baker (who entered ~1-2 minutes post-shots). This aligns with a 5-10 minute delay and west side re-entry, though less precise.
No Contradictory Testimonies for Re-Entry Timing: No other witnesses (e.g., Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Buell Frazier, or Victoria Adams) explicitly place Lovelady or Shelley re-entering the building sooner than 5 minutes or via the front entrance. Adams’ WC testimony (claiming she saw them on the first floor ~1 minute post-shots) was later disputed by her and Sandra Styles as fabricated [web:20, web:23, web:40].
Photographic Corroboration: The Couch and Darnell films (~25 seconds post-shots) show figures resembling Lovelady and Shelley ~60 feet west of the TSBD steps, supporting their immediate departure and absence from the front entrance area [web:8, web:22]. This aligns with their statements of not re-entering until later via the west side.
Summary
The FBI interviews (Nov. 22, 1963) and WC testimonies (Apr. 7, 1964) of Lovelady and Shelley consistently state they remained outside for ~5 minutes (FBI) to 5-10 minutes (WC, inferred from activities and Truly/Baker timeline) before re-entering the TSBD via the west side or rear door. No official statements indicate re-entry via the front steps or within 25 seconds to 5 minutes post-shots.
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Me: Are there any affidavits, official statements or testimonies by witnesses that tend to place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near (i.e., not about 60 feet away from the steps as they appear to be in Couch-Darnell) the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Grok:
Overview
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot (consistent with their apparent positions ~60 feet west in the Couch and Darnell films). Instead, available records indicate they left the steps almost immediately after the shots (within 15-20 seconds) and moved west toward the railroad yards and triple underpass area. Their initial affidavits (November 22, 1963) imply a quicker re-entry to the building than their later Warren Commission (WC) testimonies, but neither version supports their remaining on or near the steps at the ~25-second mark. Later accounts (FBI interviews, WC testimonies) describe a brief excursion outside before returning via a side door after 5-10 minutes (or longer per HSCA interview). The Warren Report reconciles this by estimating their return at several minutes post-shots, but photographic evidence (Couch/Darnell) aligns with an early departure.
Key Statements by Lovelady and Shelley
The following table summarizes their primary statements, focusing on post-shot movements and timing. All are official (affidavits to Dallas Police Department [DPD] or FBI; WC/HSCA testimonies).
(Matrix) Source/Date Speaker Key Excerpt on Post-Shot Location/Timing Implication for ~25 Seconds Post-Shot
DPD Affidavit, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:0, web:1, web:38, web:44, web:56]
Billy Lovelady
"When the President's car passed... shots were heard... After it was over we went back into the building and went to work" (handwritten version, with "went to work" struck through in typed report).
Implies immediate re-entry to TSBD front (steps area) after shots; no mention of leaving steps or excursion. Does not specify duration but suggests presence near steps/building shortly after.
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:0, web:52]
Billy Lovelady
"Immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away... They stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side." (CE 1381, March 1964 version echoes this).
They left steps immediately, ran ~50-100 feet west (toward Elm St./underpass), stayed 5 minutes, re-entered west side. Not on/near steps at 25 seconds.
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:3, web:15, web:22, web:54]
Billy Lovelady
"After the shots... Gloria Calvery ran up... Billy Lovelady and [Shelley] took off across the street... walked down to the first railroad track... watched them searching cars... then we came in through our parking lot at the west end." Estimates Truly/Baker entered building 3-4 minutes after shots.
Left steps immediately after Calvery's alert (~10-15 seconds post-shots), walked west ~60-100 feet to railroad area. Not on/near steps at 25 seconds; return unspecified but after several minutes.
HSCA Interview, 1978 [web:8, web:27, web:29, web:30, web:35]
Billy Lovelady
After Calvery's alert [that JFK had been shot], left for railroad yard; "it took 20-25 minutes before got back in the building."
Extended time outside (west of steps); contradicts earlier affidavits. Clearly not on/near steps at 25 seconds.
DPD Affidavit, Nov. 22, 1963
William Shelley
"I heard gunshots... ran across the street to the corner of the park [~45 feet west]... went back to the building and went inside and called my wife."
Immediate movement west (~45 feet from steps), then quick re-entry to front building (implies steps area). No explicit excursion; suggests near steps/building shortly after.
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:15, web:45]
William Shelley
Similar to Lovelady's: Ran toward car, stayed in area ~5 minutes, re-entered west side door.
Left steps immediately, west ~50-100 feet, 5-minute stay outside. Not on/near steps at 25 seconds.
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:4, web:15, web:45, web:48]
William Shelley
Echoes Lovelady: After Calvery (10-15 seconds post-shots), crossed street to "little old island" (60 feet west), then to railroad track; watched searches, re-entered west parking lot. Estimates 3-4 minutes until Truly/Baker entered front.
Left steps immediately, moved west ~60 feet (matches Couch/Darnell positions). Not on/near steps at 25 seconds; return after several minutes.
Analysis and Reconciliation in Official Reports
Warren Report (1964) [web:17, web:48]: States Shelley and Lovelady "moved out into the street" after Calvery's alert, then to railroad yards; re-entered "several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance." Cites their WC testimonies but notes initial affidavits' vagueness on excursion. Concludes they were not on steps post-shots but returned before Victoria Adams' alleged first-floor encounter (~1-2 minutes post-shots). No mention of 25-second timing.
Timing Discrepancies: Initial affidavits (day-of) suggest faster re-entry (potentially placing them near steps/building within 1 minute), but WC/HSCA versions extend time outside to 5-25 minutes. Researchers (e.g., Harold Weisberg [web:0, web:9]) argue WC testimonies were altered to align with Oswald's timeline, but photographic evidence (Couch: Baker running toward TSBD ~25 seconds post-shot; Shelley/Lovelady visible ~60 feet west) supports immediate departure [web:8, web:22].
No Supporting Witness Testimonies: No third-party affidavits/testimonies place them on/near steps at ~25 seconds. WC/HSCA witnesses (e.g., Sarah Stanton, Buell Frazier) confirm their pre-shot presence on steps but not post-shot [web:10, web:32]. Victoria Adams' WC testimony mentions seeing them on first floor ~1 minute post-shots, but she later recanted this (added without permission; corroborated by Sandra Styles as absent) [web:20, web:23, web:40]. No other witnesses (e.g., Truly, Baker) reference them near steps at that time.
In summary, evidence points to Shelley and Lovelady leaving the steps within seconds of the final shot, positioning them ~60 feet west by ~25 seconds (as in Couch/Darnell), not on or very near the steps. Initial affidavits hint at quicker return but do not contradict this movement.
. . . . . . .
Me: What FBI interviews or witness testimonies have them not reentering the building via a side or rear door until 5-10 minutes after the final shot?
Grok: The following FBI interviews and witness testimonies explicitly state or imply that Billy Lovelady and William Shelley did not re-enter the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) via a side or rear door until approximately 5-10 minutes after the final shot. All sources are official (FBI reports or Warren Commission [WC] testimonies), and I’ve focused on those directly addressing their re-entry timing and location.
Key FBI Interviews and Witness Testimonies
Source/Date
Speaker
Key Excerpt on Re-Entry Timing/Location
Notes on Timing and Re-Entry
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 (CE 1381, reiterated March 1964) [web:0, web:52]
Billy Lovelady
"Immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away... They stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side."
Explicitly states ~5 minutes outside before re-entering via west side door. Supports 5-minute delay before re-entry, not via front entrance.
FBI Interview, Nov. 22, 1963 [web:15, web:45]
William Shelley
Similar to Lovelady’s account: After hearing shots, ran toward the presidential car, stayed in the area for approximately 5 minutes, then re-entered through the west side door.
Matches Lovelady’s timeline; ~5 minutes outside, re-entry via west side door (not front steps).
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:3, web:15, web:22, web:54]
Billy Lovelady
After Gloria Calvery’s alert (~10-15 seconds post-shots), "me and Bill Shelley took off across the street... walked down to the first railroad track... watched them searching cars... then we came in through our parking lot at the west end." Estimates Roy Truly and Officer Baker entered the building 3-4 minutes after shots.
Implies 5-10 minutes outside (based on observing searches and movement to railroad yards) before re-entering via west parking lot (side/rear door). Timing aligns with ~5-10 minutes post-shots for re-entry.
WC Testimony, Apr. 7, 1964 [web:4, web:15, web:45, web:48]
William Shelley
After Calvery’s alert, crossed street to the "little old island" (~60 feet west), then to railroad tracks; watched police search cars, then re-entered via west parking lot. Estimates Truly and Baker entered front entrance ~3-4 minutes post-shots.
Suggests ~5-10 minutes outside (consistent with Lovelady’s account and search observation) before re-entering via west side/rear door. Not via front steps.
Additional Context and Notes
HSCA Interview, 1978 (Lovelady) [web:8, web:27, web:29, web:30, web:35]: Lovelady claimed he and Shelley stayed outside for 20-25 minutes before re-entering, which extends beyond the 5-10 minute range. This contradicts earlier statements but reinforces re-entry via a side/rear door (west side), not the front steps.
Warren Report (1964) [web:17, web:48]: Summarizes that Shelley and Lovelady moved west to the railroad yards after Calvery’s alert and re-entered “several minutes” after Truly and Baker (who entered ~1-2 minutes post-shots). This aligns with a 5-10 minute delay and west side re-entry, though less precise.
No Contradictory Testimonies for Re-Entry Timing: No other witnesses (e.g., Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Buell Frazier, or Victoria Adams) explicitly place Lovelady or Shelley re-entering the building sooner than 5 minutes or via the front entrance. Adams’ WC testimony (claiming she saw them on the first floor ~1 minute post-shots) was later disputed by her and Sandra Styles as fabricated [web:20, web:23, web:40].
Photographic Corroboration: The Couch and Darnell films (~25 seconds post-shots) show figures resembling Lovelady and Shelley ~60 feet west of the TSBD steps, supporting their immediate departure and absence from the front entrance area [web:8, web:22]. This aligns with their statements of not re-entering until later via the west side.
Summary
The FBI interviews (Nov. 22, 1963) and WC testimonies (Apr. 7, 1964) of Lovelady and Shelley consistently state they remained outside for ~5 minutes (FBI) to 5-10 minutes (WC, inferred from activities and Truly/Baker timeline) before re-entering the TSBD via the west side or rear door. No official statements indicate re-entry via the front steps or within 25 seconds to 5 minutes post-shots.
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot
As I've already said, your reliance on Grok is making you look foolish.
I'm now going to perform a magic trick and make little thomas disappear. All I have to do is engage him in an actual debate and he will vanish.
So...there's nothing to place Shelley or Lovelady on or near the steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot?
Really?
If thomas knew the most basic aspects of this case, he'd know that both men place themselves on the steps for at least 3 minutes after the final shot!
"Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL. And then?
Mr. SHELLEY. I didn’t think anything ahout it.
Mr. BALL. What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn’t real loud.
Mr. BALL. What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY. I didn’t do anything for a minute."
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Gloria] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
According to Shelley's WC testimony, after the shots he remained on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria ran up.
How can you not know this, thomas?
I have posted this information time and time again.
And what about Lovelady?
Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL. Three minutes is a long time.
Do you agree that both Shelley and Lovelady place themselves on the front steps for a least 3 minutes before Gloria arrives (don't bother trying to duck this question)?
Do you agree that the evidence you have used to try to support your identification of Lovelady and Shelley walking along the Elm St Ext in the Darnell footage actually refutes such an identification (you will be pressed for an answer on this as well)?
And remember both men state that after they left the steps they went across to the "little, old island", where they remained for at least a minute before heading along the Elm St Ext. Making your identification of the men impossible.
It has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Their affidavits are the only time they were honest.
Their insistence that they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived should have caused a massive headache for the WC Sham because both men stated that it wasn't until after they moved away from the steps that they saw Truly and Baker still outside the building.
They were, in effect, testifying that Truly and Baker were still outside the building at least 3 minutes after the shooting, if not longer. This was in complete contradiction with the Warren Commission's own time trials involving Baker and Truly which had them entering the building within seconds.
How did the Sham deal with this obvious contradiction?
Unbelievably, they accepted the results of the Truly/Baker time trials and accepted the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady and just ignored the fact there was a contradiction.
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[...]
Dear dan "Mister Magoo" o'meara,
Shelley's and Lovelady's allegedly spotting Baker and Truly near the entrance to the TSBD indicates (as does Baker's and Truly's location near the steps in Couch-Darnell and Shelley's and Lovelady's location on the Elm Street Extension sidewalk in same) that they did so about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Which, in turn, suggests that Shelley and Lovelady had already intercepted Gloria Calvery at or near the "island," where she told them that JFK had been shot and from which they started running / walking down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard and were "captured" doing so in the aforementioned Couch-Darnell clip.
Which "old, little island" 1) lies between the steps and where the limo was when the final shot rang out, 2) lies between the steps and the triple underpass, 3) Shelley and Lovelady admitted going over to, and 4) Buell Wesley Frazier saw them walking towards as they were "heading towards the triple underpass" before Calvary came up to the steps about ten seconds later.
We don't know who your "Lovelady On The Steps In Couch-Darnell" was, danny boy o'meara, but it's a good bet that your "Shelley" was Ochus V. Campbell, Roy Truly's motorcade-watching sidekick and Vice-President / Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company.
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you deny that Gloria Calvery can be seen on the steps in Couch-Darnell?
-- Tom
It takes more than the Blurry image of someone's BACK for me to apply a positive ID.
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It takes more than the blurry image of someone's back for me to apply a positive ID.
But not so blurry as to prevent us from discerning in the black-and-white Couch-Darnell clip that she's wearing a "black" blouse, a "black" headscarf and a plaid skirt, and that she's standing next to, or going up the steps with, her dressed-all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed).
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But not so blurry as to prevent us from discerning that she's standing next to (or going up the steps with) her dressed-all-in-white colleague, and that she's wearing a "black" blouse, a "black" headscarf and a plaid skirt in the black-and-white Couch-Darnell clip.
It's a Blurry B/W snippet. Firmly applying Colors to something such as this is reckless and reflects on other observations you make. Like I said before, this is the Mis-ID of Oswald on the Altgens Photo all over again. Learn from the mistakes of others. Don't duplicate their knee jerk inaccurate conclusions.
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It's a blurry B/W snippet. Firmly applying colors to something such as this is reckless and reflects on other observations you make. Like I said before, this is the mis-ID of Oswald on the Altgens photo all over again.
Dear Comrade Storing,
What "colors" did I attribute to Calvery and her colleague in the back-and-white Couch-Darnell clip other than "black" and "white"?
Question: Why don't you want Calvery on the steps 25 seconds after the assassination?
Because it would discredit your grandiose "HUGE GATES" CT?
-- Tom
-
You have absolutely no idea regarding my impression of how the Huge Gates may have been involved in the JFK Assassination. I have yet to lay out everything I have found in my continuing research of this overlooked Dealey Plaza area. I also continue conferring with other researchers inside and outside of this forum.
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You have absolutely no idea regarding my impression of how the Huge Gates may have been involved in the JFK assassination. I have yet to lay out everything I have found in my continuing research of this overlooked Dealey Plaza area. I also continue conferring with other researchers inside and outside of this forum.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Would Calvery's being on the steps 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell take the wind out of your "investigation"?
-- Tom
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Dear dan "Mister Magoo" o'meara,
Shelley's and Lovelady's allegedly spotting Baker and Truly near the entrance to the TSBD indicates (as does Baker's and Truly's location near the steps in Couch-Darnell and Shelley's and Lovelady's location on the Elm Street Extension sidewalk in same) that they did so about 25 seconds after the final shot.
:D :D :D
A fantasy, based on 'it looks like Lovelady to me'.
Great stuff, thomas. You should be proud Thumb1:
You previously posted this:
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot
This is a bare-faced 'deliberate falsehood'.
As you well know, both Shelley and Lovelady place themselves on the front steps for at least 3 minutes after the shooting in their WC testimonies.
How you can knowingly post such a brazen 'deliberate falsehood' is beyond me.
Which, in turn, suggests that Shelley and Lovelady had already intercepted Gloria Calvery at or near the "island," where she told them that JFK had been shot and from which they started running / walking down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard and were "captured" doing so in the aforementioned Couch-Darnell clip.
Another 'deliberate falsehood' created out of thin air.
A fantasy of your own making.
It's embarrassing.
That you couldn't care less about the evidence is one thing, not caring about the truth is another.
Which "old, little island" 1) lies between the steps and where the limo was when the final shot rang out, 2) lies between the steps and the triple underpass, 3) Shelley and Lovelady admitted going over to, and 4) Buell Wesley Frazier saw them walking towards as they were "heading towards the triple underpass" before Calvary came up to the steps about ten seconds later.
We don't know who your "Lovelady On The Steps In Couch-Darnell" was, danny boy o'meara, but it's a good bet that your "Shelley" was Ochus V. Campbell, Roy Truly's motorcade-watching sidekick and Vice-President / Secretary of the Texas School Book Depository Company.
-- thomas
More 'deliberate falsehoods' and nonsense.
What has become of you, thomas?
What is it you're doing here, posting on the forum?
You don't engage in debate.
You don't care about the evidence.
You just make things up.
Are you lonely or something?
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You previously posted this:
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot
Dear dan o'meara,
Did anyone other than Shelley and Lovelady place Shelley and Lovelady on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately three minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
. . . . . . .
Mr. Ball. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. Shelley. It would have to be three or four minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. Ball. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. Shelley. Yes.
Mr. Ball. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? [LOL!]
Mr. Shelley. Yes.
. . . . . . . .
Why did Lovelady and Shelley conflate the Darnell-Couch / Mark Tyler-determined 25 seconds with three minutes?
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three minutes to them, it's no surprise that they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and had taken off for the railway yard from there.
-- Tom
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Dear dan o'meara,
Did anyone other than Shelley and Lovelady place Shelley and Lovelady there 25 seconds after the final shot?
-- Tom
No
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot
This statement isn't true, is it Thomas?
-
No
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot
This statement isn't true, is it Thomas?
Dear dan o'meara,
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies (except those by unreliable Billy Lovelady and William Shelley which kinda do) explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot.
-- Tom
-
Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady. [LOL! --T.G.]
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Edited and bumped for Dear dan o'meara:
Did anyone other than Shelley and Lovelady place Shelley and Lovelady on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately three minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
. . . . . . .
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be three or four minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? [LOL!]
Mr. Shelley. Yes.
. . . . . . . .
Why did Lovelady and Shelley conflate the Darnell-Couch / Mark Tyler-determined 25 seconds with three minutes?
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three minutes to them, it's no wonder they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and had taken off for the railway yard from there.
PS Your "Shelley" is probably Truly's motorcade-viewing sidekick, Ochus V. Campbell.
-- Tom
-
Dear dan o'meara,
No affidavits, official statements, or witness testimonies (except those by unreliable Billy Lovelady and William Shelley which kinda do) explicitly place Billy Lovelady and William Shelley on or very near the Texas School Book Depository steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot.
-- Tom
Let's just say that the only statements placing Shelley and Lovelady on the front steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot are made by Shelley and Lovelady.
Let's also say that your desperate attempt to have Lovelady meet Gloria after leaving the steps is your own invention based on nothing whatsoever other than the recognition that your identification of Lovelady on the Elm St Ext fails without this falsehood.
Not a fantastic way to conduct research.
-
Edited and bumped for Dear dan o'meara:
Did anyone other than Shelley and Lovelady place Shelley and Lovelady on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately three minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
. . . . . . .
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be three or four minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? [LOL!]
Mr. Shelley. Yes.
. . . . . . . .
Why did Lovelady and Shelley conflate the Darnell-Couch / Mark Tyler-determined 25 seconds with three minutes?
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three minutes to them, it's no wonder they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and had taken off for the railway yard from there.
PS Your "Shelley" is probably Truly's motorcade-viewing sidekick, Ochus V. Campbell.
-- Tom
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three minutes to them, it's no wonder they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and had taken off for the railway yard from there.
:D :D :D :D
Have you forgotten to take your meds?
Honestly, thomas, who do you think you're convincing with this nonsense?
Can't you see what a fool you are making of yourself?
Please stop.
-
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three minutes to them, it's no wonder they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and had taken off for the railway yard from there.
[...]
Unfortunately, gas-lighter supreme, Danny Boy O'meara, has no answer.
-
Unfortunately, gas-lighter supreme, Danny Boy O'meara, has no answer.
:D :D :D
I've got no answer??
What was the question?
I was laughing so hard I missed the question.
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What was the question?
I was laughing so hard I missed the question.
Poor widdle danny o'meara missed the question because he was looking at himself in the mirror.
Here it is again, for you, poor widdle danny boy o'meara:
How did Lovelady and Shelley conflate the Darnell-Couch / Mark Tyler-determined 25 seconds that it took Gloria Calvery to arrive at the steps with 3-4 minutes?
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three or four minutes to them, it's no wonder they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and that they had taken off for the railway yard from there.
-
Let's just say that the only statements placing Shelley and Lovelady on the front steps approximately 25 seconds after the final shot are made by Shelley and Lovelady.
Correct.
Let's also say that your desperate attempt to have Lovelady meet Gloria after leaving the steps is your own invention based on nothing whatsoever other than the recognition that your identification of Lovelady on the Elm Street Extension fails without this falsehood.
Is English your second language?
-
Poor widdle danny o'meara missed the question because he was looking at himself in the mirror.
Here it is again, for you, poor widdle danny boy o'meara:
How did Lovelady and Shelley conflate the Darnell-Couch / Mark Tyler-determined 25 seconds that it took Gloria Calvery to arrive at the steps with 3-4 minutes?
If Lovelady and Shelley were so spaced out that 25 seconds seemed like three or four minutes to them, it's no wonder they forgot that they had spoken with Calvery at-or-near the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot and that they had taken off for the railway yard from there.
How did Lovelady and Shelley conflate the Darnell-Couch / Mark Tyler-determined 25 seconds that it took Gloria Calvery to arrive at the steps with 3-4 minutes?
It's been explained to you time and time again.
Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. They were never on the steps for 3 minutes after the shooting - that's a lie, thomas.
They never left the steps and went to the little, old island together - that's a lie, thomas.
They never stayed on the little, old island for at least a minute - that's a lie, thomas.
They never wandered along the Elm St Ext together - that's a lie, thomas.
They never hung around the railroad yard - that's a lie, thomas.
They never re-entered through the west door - that's a lie, thomas.
In Darnell we see the moment Gloria interacted with Lovelady on the steps. Immediately after this both men made their way to the back of the first floor, near the elevators, where they were seen by Vicki Adams and Marrion Baker.
And, because you haven't thought it through, the piss-weak scenario you are trying to maintain is even weaker than you realise.
By 25 seconds in Darnell your 'Shelley'and 'Lovelady' are already walking down the street.
That means they've already had their interaction with Gloria.
So, according to you, it would have taken Gloria around 15 seconds to make it to the steps, 5 seconds for her to tell her story and 5 seconds for your heroes to be waddling along the extension.
And it gets even weaker if we accept that Gloria had an interaction with Joe Smith before getting to the steps!
That's why you've had to invent the horsesh*t about Lovelady meeting Gloria at the little, old island and even that doesn't work.
Why don't you just give it a rest, thomas?
-
Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. They were never on the steps for 3 minutes after the shooting - that's a lie.
They never left the steps and went to the little, old island together - that's a lie.
They never stayed on the little, old island for at least a minute - that's a lie.
They never wandered [sic] down Elm Street Extension together - that's a lie.
They never hung around the railroad yard - that's a lie.
They never re-entered through the west door - that's a lie.
Why did they lie?
To cover for the "Sham WC"?
In Darnell, we see the moment Gloria interacted with Lovelady on the steps [sic]. Immediately after this, both men made their way to the back of the first floor, near the elevators, where they were seen by Vicki Adams and Marrion Baker.
No comment.
By 25 seconds in Darnell, your "Shelley" and "Lovelady' are already walking down the street.
In his HSCA interview, Lovelady said they ran down Elm Street Extension.
If not slender, suit-wearing Shelley and distinctive-shirt-wearing and bald-spot-spotting Lovelady, who is it?
According to you, it would have taken Gloria around 15 seconds to make it to the steps, 5 seconds for her to tell her story, and 5 seconds for your heroes to be waddling [sic] along the Extension.
Mark Tyler has her arriving at the "island" in 15 seconds, but it may have been sooner than that seeing as how she was standing only about 80 feet away from it during the motorcade.
-
Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
The image above is taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, Lovelady states he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting and that "after it was over we went back into the building."
No mention of him moving from the steps.
In his WC testimony he states he was on the steps when Gloria came running up and told him that the President had been shot. This is the moment we are witnessing in the image above.
A close examination of the GIF below (created by Chris Davidson, watch full screen and quarter speed), we see Karan Hicks (the woman in white) arriving at the steps and starting to climb them. She appears to have her arm linked with Gloria. As she climbs the steps, she seems to be briefly halted by the stationary figure of Gloria as she tells Lovelady, and others on the steps, about the shooting. Bill Shelley, returning from the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets, has his back to the camera as he takes a couple of large strides towards the steps before turning to his left and we see him in profile -
“I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building...”
[Shelley - affidavit 22nd Nov]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1
The important aspect of Darnell is that it shows Lovelady on the steps, interacting with Gloria, as Baker arrives at the front steps.
This reveals that both Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They were truthful in the very first statements they gave, but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
After the shooting, Shelley ran across to the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets where he met Gloria coming the other way. Gloria was crying and told him the President had been shot. As they were making their way to the TSBD building Gloria approached Officer Joe Marshall Smith and told him that someone was shooting at the President from the bushes - "she was in hysterics" Smith recalls.
At the steps Gloria told Lovelady and the others about the shooting. Immediately after this Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. They were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
Dear Danny Boy O'meara,
It seems as though your "Shelley" has a receding hairline like Ochus V. Campbell's.
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/ochus-virgil-campbell/
-- Tom
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Dealing with Tom has reminded me of how the lies of Lovelady evolved.
In his affidavit, given a couple of hours after the assassination, he states that he was on the steps at the time of the shots after which he re-entered the building. He didn't move from the steps, no mention of moving along the Elm St Ext, the little, old island, the railroad yard or the west door.
Later that same day he was interviewed by the FBI (this seems unusual as I can't recall any other employee of the TSBD being interviewed by the FBI on the day, but it must have happened. Lovelady cannot have been the only one). This is from that interview:
"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository."
No mention of the little, old island or the railroad yard. Instead, both men immediately race toward to limo in time to see it speed away.
On March 19th '64 Lovelady gave his CE1381 statement to the FBI. In it he repeats the nonsense about racing toward the area where the limo had "stopped" (presumably before it sped away):
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
So, Lovelady isn't talking about making his way along the extension to the railroad yard. This early version of the lie has Lovelady and Shelley racing to the spot where the limo stopped and staying in that area for around 5 minutes.
On April 7th '64 Lovelady gave his WC testimony. Finally, he and Shelley have coordinated their stories - on the steps (for 3 minutes), Gloria, little old island (for an undisclosed amount of time), along the Elm Street extension, hanging around the railroad yard (a minute or so) entering through the west door.
In Lovelady's final version of events, given during an interview for the HSCA, he states that he didn't enter the TSBD building for around 20 minutes.
So, which version do we accept?
They can't all be true.
Considering we have an excellent witness in Vicki Adams, why not pick the version that allows him to be somewhere in the vicinity of the elevators approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
That would be his very first statement on the matter, his same-day affidavit, in which he never left the steps before re-entering the building.
-
Dealing with Tom has reminded me of how the lies of Lovelady evolved.
In his affidavit, given a couple of hours after the assassination, he states that he was on the steps at the time of the shots after which he re-entered the building. He didn't move from the steps, no mention of moving along the Elm St Ext, the little, old island, the railroad yard or the west door.
Later that same day he was interviewed by the FBI (this seems unusual as I can't recall any other employee of the TSBD being interviewed by the FBI on the day, but it must have happened. Lovelady cannot have been the only one). This is from that interview:
"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository."
No mention of the little, old island or the railroad yard. Instead, both men immediately race toward to limo in time to see it speed away.
On March 19th '64 Lovelady gave his CE1381 statement to the FBI. In it he repeats the nonsense about racing toward the area where the limo had "stopped" (presumably before it sped away):
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
So, Lovelady isn't talking about making his way along the extension to the railroad yard. This early version of the lie has Lovelady and Shelley racing to the spot where the limo stopped and staying in that area for around 5 minutes.
On April 7th '64 Lovelady gave his WC testimony. Finally, he and Shelley have coordinated their stories - on the steps (for 3 minutes), Gloria, little old island (for an undisclosed amount of time), along the Elm Street extension, hanging around the railroad yard (a minute or so) entering through the west door.
In Lovelady's final version of events, given during an interview for the HSCA, he states that he didn't enter the TSBD building for around 20 minutes.
So, which version do we accept?
They can't all be true.
Considering we have an excellent witness in Vicki Adams, why not pick the version that allows him to be somewhere in the vicinity of the elevators approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
That would be his very first statement on the matter, his same-day affidavit, in which he never left the steps before re-entering the building.
Dear Danny Boy O'meara,
Do you still think that's William Shelley ushering Baker up the front steps in Couch-Darnell?
-- Tom
-
Dealing with Tom has reminded me of how the lies of Lovelady evolved.
In his affidavit, given a couple of hours after the assassination, he states that he was on the steps at the time of the shots after which he re-entered the building. He didn't move from the steps, no mention of moving along the Elm St Ext, the little, old island, the railroad yard or the west door.
Later that same day he was interviewed by the FBI (this seems unusual as I can't recall any other employee of the TSBD being interviewed by the FBI on the day, but it must have happened. Lovelady cannot have been the only one). This is from that interview:
"He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository."
No mention of the little, old island or the railroad yard. Instead, both men immediately race toward to limo in time to see it speed away.
On March 19th '64 Lovelady gave his CE1381 statement to the FBI. In it he repeats the nonsense about racing toward the area where the limo had "stopped" (presumably before it sped away):
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
So, Lovelady isn't talking about making his way along the extension to the railroad yard. This early version of the lie has Lovelady and Shelley racing to the spot where the limo stopped and staying in that area for around 5 minutes.
On April 7th '64 Lovelady gave his WC testimony. Finally, he and Shelley have coordinated their stories - on the steps (for 3 minutes), Gloria, little old island (for an undisclosed amount of time), along the Elm Street extension, hanging around the railroad yard (a minute or so) entering through the west door.
In Lovelady's final version of events, given during an interview for the HSCA, he states that he didn't enter the TSBD building for around 20 minutes.
So, which version do we accept?
They can't all be true.
Considering we have an excellent witness in Vicki Adams, why not pick the version that allows him to be somewhere in the vicinity of the elevators approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
That would be his very first statement on the matter, his same-day affidavit, in which he never left the steps before re-entering the building.
Dear Danny Boy O'meara,
Shelley’s and Lovelady’s early “running towards the limo” claims could be taken to mean that they ended up on the “little, old island” about 30 feet from the steps in the direction of limo. If so, they may have intercepted “bellowing” TSBD employee Gloria Calvery there as she was running towards the TSBD steps, and it's reasonable to assume that she informed them there that JFK had been shot. If such was the case, Shelley and Lovelady may very well have started running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard at that point (pardon the pun), as is suggested by the actions of the slender, suit-wearing “Shelley” figure and the distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!) “Lovelady” figure about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell.
-- Tom
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Dear Danny Boy O'meara,
Shelley’s and Lovelady’s early “running towards the limo” claims could be taken to mean that they ended up on the “little, old island” about 30 feet from the steps in the direction of limo. If so, they may have intercepted “bellowing” TSBD employee Gloria Calvery there as she was running towards the TSBD steps, and it's reasonable to assume that she informed them there that JFK had been shot. If such was the case, Shelley and Lovelady may very well have started running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard at that point (pardon the pun), as is suggested by the actions of the slender, suit-wearing “Shelley” figure and the distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!) “Lovelady” figure about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell.
-- Tom
You've missed the point of the post, thomas (a favourite strategy of yours)
I was just outlining how the lies Lovelady told about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, evolved.
1] He started out staying on the steps before re-entering the building
2] He ran to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for 5 minutes.
3] He went to the island AFTER Gloria, then down to the railroad yard etc., taking about 5 minutes to get back inside.
4] He didn't go back inside for 20 minutes.
There is no doubt he is lying about his movements (why would he be lying about his movements).
That was the point of the post.
Your desperate attempt to keep your dead theory afloat is no great surprise. Your interpretation of the evidence is laughable.
Why do you refer to Gloria as "bellowing"?
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You've missed the point of the post, thomas (a favourite strategy of yours)
Have you always been paranoiac, danny boy?
I was just outlining how the lies Lovelady told about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, evolved:
1] He started out staying on the steps before re-entering the building
2] He ran to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for 5 minutes.
3] He went to the island after Gloria, then down to the railroad yard etc., taking about 5 minutes to get back inside.
4] He didn't go back inside for 20 minutes.
Why would Lovelady be lying about his movements?
The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, or the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] must have made him do it, right?
That was the point of the post.
I know it was, danny Boy o'meara.
Why do you refer to Gloria as "bellowing"?
Didn't Buell Wesley Frazier say she was "bellowing," or "howling," or "growling," or words to that effect?
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Have you always been paranoiac, danny boy?
The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, or the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] must have made him do it, right?
I know it was, danny Boy o'meara.
Didn't Buell Wesley Frazier say she was "bellowing," or "howling," or "growling," or words to that effect?
It's good to see you agree Lovelady lied about his movements.
Frazier refers to a "low kind of hollering".
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It's good to see you agree Lovelady lied about his movements.
Nice trolling, danny Boy o'meara.
If Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements, who made them do it?
The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?
Regaardless, do you still think the balding guy who's pivoting out of Baker's way about 25 seconds after the final shot in Darnell is William Shelley?
-
Nice trolling, danny Boy o'meara.
High praise indeed from this forum's #1 troll
If Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements, who made them do it?
The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?
I don't understand the question.
Why do you think they were "made" to do it?
Why don't you explain why they lied about their movements after the assassination?
All I've done is demonstrate, beyond any reasonable doubt, that they did indeed lie about their movements after the assassination.
The only possible reason they had for doing this (as far as I can see) is to cover up the fact that immediately after the assassination both men made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker seconds after the assassination.
The question then becomes - why would they want to cover up their presence near the first floor elevators about 60 seconds after the assassination?
Regaardless, do you still think the balding guy who's pivoting out of Baker's way about 25 seconds after the final shot in Darnell is William Shelley?
I'm not like you, thomas. I don't change my opinion just to try and 'score a point'. My opinion is based on, what I regard to be, the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence.
At no point have I changed my mind about the identification of Shelley in Darnell. It fits perfectly with the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
Your ability to see bald spots and receding hairlines in such poor images is as laughable as everything else you've offered up in this thread. Almost every single piece of evidence related to this aspect of the case points away from your 'it looks like Lovelady to me' approach to the evidence. But here you are, still trollin' along
Walk:
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All I've done is demonstrate, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady did indeed lie about their movements after the assassination.
You must be very proud of yourself!
The only possible reason they had for lying (as far as I can see) is to cover up the fact that immediately after the assassination both men made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker seconds after the assassination.
Why, then, don't you have the walking/running "Shelley" and "Lovelady" figures in Couch/Darnell be them?
Gotta have Calvery bellowing the news to Lovelady on the front steps 25 seconds after the final shot and with receding-hairline "Shelley" hovering nearby?
The question then becomes - why would they want to cover up their presence near the first-floor elevators about 60 seconds after the assassination?
Ah ha!
They must have been part of the conspiracy!!!
At no point have I changed my mind about the identification of Shelley in Darnell.
Why does your "Shelley" have a receding hairline like Ochus V. Campbell?
It fits perfectly with the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
Huh?
-
I was just outlining how the lies Lovelady told about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination evolved:
1) He stayed on the steps until he reentered the building.
2) He ran to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for 5 minutes. [emphasis added by T.G.]
3) He went to the island after Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps and told him JFK had been shot, then he and Shelley down to the railroad yard, taking about 5 minutes to get back inside.
4] He didn't go back inside for 20 minutes.
Dear danny Boy o'meara,
You really need to read Lovelady's two affidavits / reports again.
Here they are:
Lovelady’s first affidavit (to the Dallas Police Department) on 11/22/63:
I work at Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm. On Friday November 22nd, 1963, I worked on the 6th floor along with Danny Arce, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens. When the President came by Bill Shelly and I were standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo. After it was over we went back into the building and took some police officers up to search the building. Our lunch period is from 12 to 12:45PM. All of us had left the sixth floor to see the President.
. . . . . . .
Excerpt from Lovelady’s 11/22/63 FBI report later that day:
On November 22nd, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 PM watching the presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first, he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle. He could not tell from which direction the shots came. He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelly started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository building. During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw any suspicious individuals.
. . . . . . .
Questions for danny Boy o'meara:
What in the heck is "after it was over" supposed to mean? After what was over?
Did Lovelady say that he / they actually ran down to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for five minutes?
Really?
-- Tom
-
...
Questions for danny Boy o'meara:
What in the heck is "after it was over" supposed to mean? After what was over?
What we do is follow some basic rules of the English language, thomas.
We are trying to discern what the word "it" refers to.
In order to do this we need to discern the 'context' that the word is derived from.
To do this we look at the preceding sentences - "After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo."
Lovelady is talking about the shots he heard.
The "it"refers to the shots that were fired.
He is basically saying - After the shots we went back into the building.
There is no sequence of events between the shots and re-entering the building.
He doesn't leave the steps, doesn't go across to the island, doesn't walk along the extension, doesn't hang around in the railroad yard and then re-enter the building.
There is an immediacy implied in his affidavit - he was on the steps, there were shots, he went back into the building.
This is his first and most honest account of events.
Did Lovelady say that he / they actually ran down to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for five minutes?
Really?
-- Tom
Yes, thomas, he really did say that he ran to the spot where the limo stopped and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for around 5 minutes.
This is from his CE1381, taken March 19th '64
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
Just to clarify...when Lovelady refers to "that area" he is referring to the area where the limo stopped.
That's how the English language works.
He is not referring to the railroad yard or the island.
At this stage of the lie he is stating that he went to where the limo had stopped on Elm Street, and that he and Shelley stayed in this area for a while.
Obviously, you will just ignore this.
It won't make you think, "oh...Lovelady really did give a series of completely contradictory accounts regarding his movements after the shooting".
You were just trying to catch me out and now that has failed you will just move on from this point as if nothing were said.
That's how you operate.
You're just a troll playing a game.
It's a pity you can't see the true relevance of your own work regarding the identification of Gloria on the steps.
Just a recap on the evolution of Lovelady's lies.
1] Didn't move from the steps, went back inside building.
2] Ran down to where limo stopped on Elm Street, stayed there for 5 minutes, re-eneterd building through west door.
3] Ran across to island, moved along extension, stayed in railroad yard, re-entered building through west door.
4] Stayed outside for 20 minutes before re-entering building.
This is how I reconcile these four contradictory accounts - #1 is true, the rest are lies told to cover up his movements after the assassination.
How do you reconcile these contradictory accounts?
-
Lovelady is talking about the shots he heard. The "it" in "when it was over" refers to the shots that were fired. He is basically saying, "After the shots we went back into the building." There is no sequence of events between the shots and re-entering the building.
He may have left 2 to 5 minutes out.
He doesn't leave the steps, doesn't go across to the island, doesn't walk along the extension, doesn't hang around in the railroad yard and then re-enter the building. There is an immediacy implied in his affidavit - he was on the steps, there were shots, he went back into the building. This is his first and most honest account of events.
Okay.
If Lovelady's later testimonies and interviews were lies, what's your theory as to why he (and Shelley) lied about their movements after the final shot?
1) Because they were forced to by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil Warren Commission, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] in order to somehow prove that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles came down to the first floor a lot later than they remembered? Something like that?
2) Because they were part of the conspiracy?
3) Because [fill in the blank]?
4) "Dunno"
He really did say that he ran to the spot where the limo stopped and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for around 5 minutes.
This is from his CE1381, taken March 19th '64
"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."
Just to clarify...when Lovelady refers to "that area" he is referring to the area where the limo stopped. That's how the English language works.
From the TSBD steps, the "old, little island" is towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had "stopped."
So, he's telling the truth there.
And by "awhile" he probably meant 5 minutes max.
He is not referring to the railroad yard or the island. At this stage of the lie, he is stating that he went to where the limo had stopped on Elm Street, and that he and Shelley stayed in this area for a while.
Lovelady really did give a series of completely contradictory accounts regarding his movements after the shooting".
Just a recap on the evolution of Lovelady's lies.
1] Didn't move from the steps, went back inside building.
2] Ran down to where limo stopped on Elm Street, stayed there for 5 minutes, re-eneterd building through west door.
3] Ran across to island, moved along extension, stayed in railroad yard, re-entered building through west door.
4] Stayed outside for 20 minutes before re-entering building.
This is how I reconcile these four contradictory accounts - #1 is true, the rest are lies told to cover up his movements after the assassination.
How do you reconcile these contradictory accounts?
Other than the HSCA interview "20-25 minutes" bit (by which he may have meant the period of time thirty minutes after the final shot in the Martin and Hughes clips in which he's smoking on the front steps, evidently having gone back outside for a nicotine "hit" once they started letting employees back in -- and after Martin and Hughes stop filming that scene, he probably went back inside), we don't know if Lovelady's statements and testimonies trend towards falsity, or truth.
But the fact that your receding-hairline "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell is probably Ochus V. Campbell, and the fact that in Couch-Darnell we can see a slender, suit-wearing "Shelley" figure and a distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!!!) "Lovelady" figure walking/running in the direction of the railway yard down Elm Street Extension 25 seconds after the final shot suggests the latter.
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He may have left 2 to 5 minutes out.
Okay.
If Lovelady's later testimonies and interviews were lies, what's your theory as to why he (and Shelley) lied about their movements after the final shot?
1) Because they were forced to by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil Warren Commission, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] in order to somehow prove that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles came down to the first floor a lot later than they remembered? Something like that?
2) Because they were part of the conspiracy?
3) Because [fill in the blank]?
4) "Dunno"
From the TSBD steps, the "old, little island" is towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had "stopped."
So, he's telling the truth there.
And by "awhile" he probably meant 5 minutes max.
Other than the HSCA interview "20-25 minutes" bit (by which he may have meant the period of time thirty minutes after the final shot in the Martin and Hughes clips in which he's smoking on the front steps, evidently having gone back outside for a nicotine "hit" once they started letting employees back in -- and after Martin and Hughes stop filming that scene, he probably went back inside), we don't know if Lovelady's statements and testimonies trend towards falsity, or truth.
But the fact that your receding-hairline "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell is probably Ochus V. Campbell, and the fact that in Couch-Darnell we can see a slender, suit-wearing "Shelley" figure and a distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!!!) "Lovelady" figure walking/running in the direction of the railway yard down Elm Street Extension 25 seconds after the final shot suggests the latter.
Come on Tom. Look at that Couch "reverse negative" real good. Those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext close to the "island/triangle" are Not that far behind Officer Smith who has just reached the Huge Gates. 2-5 Minutes? NOT even close. I know what Lovelady and Shelley testified about 3+ minutes, but if you believe those 2 guys we see on the Couch "reverse negative" are Lovelady and Shelley, your 2-5 minutes is more like 1 minute max. Officer Smith being just ahead of them = Lovelady's/Shelley's egg timer.
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Come on Tom. Look at that Couch "reverse negative" real good. Those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext close to the "island/triangle" are Not that far behind Officer Smith who has just reached the Huge Gates. 2-5 Minutes? NOT even close. I know what Lovelady and Shelley testified about 3+ minutes, but if you believe those 2 guys we see on the Couch "reverse negative" are Lovelady and Shelley, your 2-5 minutes is more like 1 minute max. Officer Smith being just ahead of them = Lovelady's/Shelley's egg timer.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
You need to be more specific.
"One minute max" to what?
Walk/run to the first railroad track, hang out there for a short time, and return to the TSBD and enter it via the rear door (per Lovelady) or the west door (per Shelley)?
Regardless, how are the images in a reversed Couch clip superior to the regular images in same in determining the locations and identities of people in them?
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
You need to be more specific.
"One minute max" to what?
Walk/run to the first railroad track, hang out there for a short time, and return to the TSBD and enter it via the rear door (per Lovelady) or the west door (per Shelley)?
Regardless, how are the images in a reversed Couch clip superior to the regular images in same in determining the locations and identities of people in them?
Do you see the 2 guys moving right alongside the "island/triangle"? Do you see one of these guys is wearing all dark? Probably a dark suit? Do you see the other guy is shorter and wearing a light colored shirt of some kind? Do you see both of the guys are walking toward the railroad yard? Do you see Officer Smith running in front of these 2 guys? Do you see that Officer Smith has reached the Huge Gates? Do you know Officer Smith's timeline? Personally, I believe the Couch Film "reverse negative" is fairly definitive as to the Lovelady/Shelley timeline. They were at the "island/triangle" at somewhere around 45+ seconds after the Kill Shot. Unless of course, you believe these 2 guys are 2 other people. That's certainly possible, but far from probable. You have viewed the Couch Film "reverse negative" right? If not, you need to get off the dime. It's this kind of lackluster effort that the Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers have made their hallmark. Please do Not follow in their footsteps.
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Do you see the two guys moving right alongside the "island/triangle"? Do you see one of these guys is wearing all dark? Probably a dark suit? Do you see the other guy is shorter and wearing a light-colored shirt of some kind?
DEAR COMRADE STORING,
DO YOU MEAN THE "SHELLEY" AND "LOVELADY" FIGURES?
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
REGARDLESS, HOW IS THE COUCH CLIP "REVERSE NEGATIVE" (SIC) SUPERIOR TO THE NORMAL COUCH CLIP FOR VIEWING THE PEOPLE YOU'RE RANTING ABOUT?
-- TOM
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DEAR COMRADE STORING,
DO YOU MEAN THE "SHELLEY" AND "LOVELADY" FIGURES?
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
REGARDLESS, HOW IS THE COUCH CLIP "REVERSE NEGATIVE" (SIC) SUPERIOR TO THE NORMAL COUCH CLIP FOR VIEWING THE PEOPLE YOU'RE RANTING ABOUT?
-- TOM
There's even more to that "reverse negative" than the Shelley/Lovelady stuff. You've obviously missed it. I'm not Samwise Gamgee. I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
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There's even more to that "reverse negative" than the Shelley/Lovelady stuff. You've obviously missed it. I'm not Samwise Gamgee. I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
I looked at the gosh darned videos you referred me to last night.
It was like looking at the regular Couch film, except right was left and left was right.
When you say "reverse negative" do you mean that right is left and left is right, or do you mean what's black in the regular clip is white in the "reverse negative" one, and vice-versa (which I was expecting, but couldn't find)?
What the heck are you talking about?
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There's even more to that "reverse negative" than the Shelley/Lovelady stuff. You've obviously missed it. I'm not Samwise Gamgee. I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
:D :D :D
-
I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
Dear danny Boy o'meara,
You've been in the act of "posting" on this thread for about ten hours.
Is this the best you can come up with?
-- Tom
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Dear danny Boy o'meara,
You've been in the act of "posting" on this thread for about ten hours.
Is this the best you can come up with?
-- Tom
Now you're acting like Peregrin Took. For you to believe there is no difference between those 2 Couch Films shows you have much to learn. You need to remain in The Shire. You're not ready yet.
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Now you're acting like Peregrin Took. For you to believe there is no difference between those 2 Couch Films shows you have much to learn. You need to remain in The Shire. You're not ready yet.
What's different about them, Comrade Storing?
Is the reversed one a widdle bit longer than the one we're used to?
Can we see the evil, evil CIA/Mafia sniper bad guy hiding in the shadows behind the HUGE GATES, waiting for Shelley and Lovelady to come by and give him a quarter for the bus?
ARE you INCAPABLE of putting IT into WORDS?
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"IT" is being examined by several researchers that I respect. That currently does Not include you. You're obviously not ready Young Grasshopper.
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"IT" is being examined by several researchers that I respect. That currently does Not include you. You're obviously not ready Young Grasshopper.
You gonna call in Tom Wilson to do some super-duper voodoo analysis of them there shadows?
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Dear danny Boy o'meara,
You've been in the act of "posting" on this thread for about ten hours.
Is this the best you can come up with?
-- Tom
You forgot to put the laughing emojis in my response, Mr Frodo.
Here's what I actually posted:
I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
:D :D :D
Why are you being so evasive?
Just answer Royell's question.
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You forgot to put the laughing emojis in my response, Mr Frodo.
Here's what I actually posted:
I will Not carry you Mr Frodo.
:D :D :D
Why are you being so evasive?
Just answer Royell's question.
Dear danny Boy o'meara,
1) Royell asked an intelligent question???
2) Why does your "pivoting Shelley" have such a receding hairline in Couch-Darnell?
3) Are you the second coming of Miles Scull?
-- Tom
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Dear danny Boy o'meara,
1) Royell asked an intelligent question???
2) Why does your "pivoting Shelley" have such a receding hairline in Couch-Darnell?
3) Are you the second coming of Miles Scull?
-- Tom
Stop being so evasive and cowardly, Mr Frodo, and answer Royell's question ;D
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Answer Royell's question.
Dear danny o'meara,
What question?
Why I can't see the bad guys in the shadows behind THE HUGE GATES?
Here's a question for you, danny Boy:
How is it that your "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell had a receding hairline just like Ochus V. Campbell's?
-- Tom
PS
Oh, this?
Storing: Do you see the two guys moving right alongside the "island/triangle" [in the Couch clip]?
Me: I can see two guys walking / running down the Elm Street Extension sidewalk towards the railway yard about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Storing: Do you see one of these guys is wearing all dark? Probably a dark suit?
Me: Yes.
Storing: Do you see the other guy is shorter and wearing a light-colored shirt of some kind?
Me: Yes, a bold "checkered" or "plaid" long-sleeved shirt.
Storing: Do you see both of the guys are walking toward the railroad yard?
Me: See above.
Storing: Do you see Officer Smith running in front of these two guys?
Me: Yes. I assume that's Officer Smith.
Storing: Do you see that Officer Smith has reached The Huge Gates?
Me: Yes.
Storing: Do you know Officer Smith's timeline?
Me: Just (from memory) that during the motorcade he was standing at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and a few seconds after the final shot a crying woman whom he'd either intercepted or who had come running up to him (or both) told him, "they're shooting at the President from the bushes!!!," or words to that effect, so he ran down Elm Street Extension in the direction of the railway yard to see if he could apprehend the suspect(s), and he ended up behind the picket fence where he allegedly saw a man who volunteered his "Secret Service" identification to him, but Smith didn't take a close look at.
Or something like that.
Storing: Personally, I believe the Couch Film "reverse negative" is fairly definitive as to the Lovelady/Shelley timeline.
Me: How is the "reverse negative Couch film" more helpful in that regard that the normal Couch film?
Storing: They were at the "island/triangle" at somewhere around 45+ seconds after the Kill Shot.
Me: You mean the area by the traffic signal pole and traffic signs directly across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD steps? That "island" or "peninsula"? How could that be if they were "captured" about 60 feet west of the steps in Couch-Darnell as they were walking / running towards the railway yard about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Storing: Unless of course, you believe these two guys are two other people.
Me: I don't, but danny Boy o'meara sure wants me to. His tinfoil-hat JFKA CT is evidently different from yours. Imagine that!
Storing: That's certainly possible, but far from probable. [emphasis added]
Me: Why do you say that?
Storing: You have viewed the Couch Film "reverse negative," right?
Me: I think so. Couple of times. Depends on what you mean by "reverse negative" -- i.e., "what's 'left' in the normal film is 'right' in the "reverse negative film," and vice-versa," or "what's 'black' in the normal film is 'white' in the "reverse negative film," and vice versa? What the heck do you mean by "reverse negative"? Suffice it to say I watched both of the clips you so graciously sent to me via the Forum's personal messenger thingy. Didn't learn anything I didn't already know from watching the regular Couch film. Should I watch them again? Are they longer than the regular Couch clip?
Storing: If not, you need to get off the dime. It's this kind of lackluster effort that the Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers have made their hallmark.
Me: LOL!
Storing: Please do not follow in their footsteps.
Me: Don't worry, I ain't goin' anywhere NEAR them spooky-lookin' HUGE GATES!!!
-
Everybody here is onna journey. We are all at different points in our journey. I don't agree with many of the Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers that contribute here, but I do respect their opinions and many times ask them backstage for their opinion(s) on something I am currently researching/examining. Somebody looking at an issue from a different angle can open your eyes to something you have missed or not even thought about. Know your limitations.
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Everybody here is on a journey. We are all at different points in our journey. I don't agree with many of the Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers that contribute here, but I do respect their opinions and many times ask them backstage for their opinion(s) on something I am currently researching/examining. Somebody looking at an issue from a different angle can open your eyes to something you have missed or not even thought about. Know your limitations.
Storing: Do you see the two guys moving right alongside the "island/triangle" [in the Couch clip]?
Me: I can see two guys walking / running down the Elm Street Extension sidewalk towards the railway yard about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Storing: Do you see one of these guys is wearing all dark? Probably a dark suit?
Me: Yes.
Storing: Do you see the other guy is shorter and wearing a light-colored shirt of some kind?
Me: Yes, a bold "checkered" or "plaid" long-sleeved shirt.
Storing: Do you see both of the guys are walking toward the railroad yard?
Me: See above.
Storing: Do you see Officer Smith running in front of these two guys?
Me: Yes. I assume that's Officer Smith.
Storing: Do you see that Officer Smith has reached The Huge Gates?
Me: Yes.
Storing: Do you know Officer Smith's timeline?
Me: Just (from memory) that during the motorcade he was standing at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and a few seconds after the final shot a crying woman whom he'd either intercepted or who had come running up to him (or both) told him, "they're shooting at the President from the bushes!!!," or words to that effect, so he ran down Elm Street Extension in the direction of the railway yard to see if he could apprehend the suspect(s), and he ended up behind the picket fence where he allegedly saw a man who volunteered his "Secret Service" identification to him, but Smith didn't take a close look at.
Or something like that.
Storing: Personally, I believe the Couch Film "reverse negative" is fairly definitive as to the Lovelady/Shelley timeline.
Me: How is the "reverse negative Couch film" more helpful in that regard that the normal Couch film?
Storing: They were at the "island/triangle" at somewhere around 45+ seconds after the Kill Shot.
Me: You mean the area by the traffic signal pole and traffic signs directly across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD steps? That "island" or "peninsula"? How could that be if they were "captured" about 60 feet west of the steps in Couch-Darnell as they were walking / running towards the railway yard about 25 seconds after the final shot?
Storing: Unless of course, you believe these two guys are two other people.
Me: I don't, but danny Boy o'meara sure wants me to. His tinfoil-hat JFKA CT is evidently different from yours. Imagine that!
Storing: That's certainly possible, but far from probable. [emphasis added]
Me: Why do you say that?
Storing: You have viewed the Couch Film "reverse negative," right?
Me: I think so. Couple of times. Depends on what you mean by "reverse negative" -- i.e., "what's 'left' in the normal film is 'right' in the "reverse negative film," and vice-versa," or "what's 'black' in the normal film is 'white' in the "reverse negative film," and vice versa? What the heck do you mean by "reverse negative"? Suffice it to say I watched both of the clips you so graciously sent to me via the Forum's personal messenger thingy. Didn't learn anything I didn't already know from watching the regular Couch film. Should I watch them again? Are they longer than the regular Couch clip?
Storing: If not, you need to get off the dime. It's this kind of lackluster effort that the Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers have made their hallmark.
Me: LOL!
Storing: Please do not follow in their footsteps.
Me: Don't worry, I ain't goin' anywhere NEAR them spooky-lookin' HUGE GATES!!!
-
Near the beginning of this footage, the camera pans across to briefly capture the front steps of the TSBD building.
Around 2017 Tom Graves and Sandy Larsen identified Gloria Calvery and a colleague (most likely Karan Hicks), at the steps.
Gloria is wearing a black headscarf, has her back to the camera and appears to be interacting with a bald man, stood higher upon the steps and facing her.
This man is Billy Lovelady.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The image above is taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
In his affidavit, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, Lovelady states he was on the front steps at the time of the shooting and that "after it was over we went back into the building."
No mention of him moving from the steps.
In his WC testimony he states he was on the steps when Gloria came running up and told him that the President had been shot. This is the moment we are witnessing in the image above.
A close examination of the GIF below (created by Chris Davidson, watch full screen and quarter speed), we see Karan Hicks (the woman in white) arriving at the steps and starting to climb them. She appears to have her arm linked with Gloria. As she climbs the steps, she seems to be briefly halted by the stationary figure of Gloria as she tells Lovelady, and others on the steps, about the shooting. Bill Shelley, returning from the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets, has his back to the camera as he takes a couple of large strides towards the steps before turning to his left and we see him in profile -
“I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building...”
[Shelley - affidavit 22nd Nov]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1
The important aspect of Darnell is that it shows Lovelady on the steps, interacting with Gloria, as Baker arrives at the front steps.
This reveals that both Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They were truthful in the very first statements they gave, but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
After the shooting, Shelley ran across to the concrete spur dividing the Elm Streets where he met Gloria coming the other way. Gloria was crying and told him the President had been shot. As they were making their way to the TSBD building Gloria approached Officer Joe Marshall Smith and told him that someone was shooting at the President from the bushes - "she was in hysterics" Smith recalls.
At the steps Gloria told Lovelady and the others about the shooting. Immediately after this Shelley and Lovelady entered the building through the front door and made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced outside. They were the two white men that Baker saw in this area as he and Truly were making their way to the elevators.
I don't believe that the person marked as being Lovelady in that Darnell frame is Lovelady. The image has clearly been altered to help give the appearance that it is Lovelady. However, just for the sake of argument, what are the ramifications if it is Lovelady? Give it to me here in short form. I don't feel like reading through the thread.
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I don't believe that the person marked as being Lovelady in that Darnell frame is Lovelady. The image has clearly been altered to help give the appearance that it is Lovelady. However, just for the sake of argument, what are the ramifications if it is Lovelady? Give it to me here in short form. I don't feel like reading through the thread.
"Altered"?
LOL!
Regardless, as I understand O'meara's theory, if it's Lovelady, it suggests that 1) he and Shelley were telling the truth in their early affidavits when they said they entered the TSBD front door about 30 seconds after the final shot, 2) that it was Shelley and Lovelady whom Officer Baker was referring to in his WC testimony when he volunteered that he noticed two white men, one sitting, not far from the elevators when he and Truly were trying to get the elevators to come down, 3) which in turn suggests that Vicki Adams really did see Lovelady and/or Shelley when she and Styles got to the first floor via the stairs, 4) which corroborates Adams' testimony that she and Styles started coming down about 15 seconds after the final shot, 5) and since neither Adams and Styles nor Baker and Truly saw Oswald on the stairs, he couldn't have been up on the sixth floor during the assassination, 6) and therefore, the self-described Marxist and former Marine sharpshooter was innocent, innocent, innocent!!!
Or something like that.
OH YEAH, AND THAT THE WARREN COMMISSION WAS A NO-GOOD, DIRTY-ROTTEN SHAM!!!!!
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=%22sam+the+sham%22&&mid=26CDFAABD94E5BBC3F0926CDFAABD94E5BBC3F09&&FORM=VRDGAR
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"Altered"?
LOL!
Regardless, as I understand O'meara's theory, if it's Lovelady, it suggests that 1) he and Shelley were telling the truth in their early affidavits when they said they entered the TSBD front door about 30 seconds after the final shot, 2) that it was Shelley and Lovelady whom Officer Baker was referring to in his WC testimony when he volunteered that he noticed two white men, one sitting, not far from the elevators when he and Truly were trying to get the elevators to come down, 3) which in turn suggests that Vicki Adams really did see Lovelady and/or Shelley when she and Styles got to the first floor via the stairs, 4) which corroborates Adams' testimony that she and Styles started coming down about 15 seconds after the final shot, 5) and since neither Adams and Styles nor Baker and Truly saw Oswald on the stairs, he couldn't have been up on the sixth floor during the assassination, 6) and therefore, the self-described Marxist and former Marine sharpshooter was innocent, innocent, innocent!!!
Or something like that.
OH YEAH, AND THAT THE WARREN COMMISSION WAS A NO-GOOD, DIRTY-ROTTEN SHAM!!!!!
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=%22sam+the+sham%22&&mid=26CDFAABD94E5BBC3F0926CDFAABD94E5BBC3F09&&FORM=VRDGAR
Lovelady and Shelley did not say in their early affidavits that they entered the TSBD front door about 30 seconds after the final shot.
Adams and Styles not seeing Oswald on the stairs does not mean that he couldn't have been up on the sixth floor during the assassination.
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Lovelady and Shelley did not say in their early affidavits that they entered the TSBD front door about 30 seconds after the final shot.
O'meara takes the following to suggest that they did:
Lovelady’s first Affidavit on 11/22/63
I work at Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm. On Friday November 22nd, 1963, I worked on the 6th floor along with Danny Arce, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens. When the President came by Bill Shelly and I were standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo. After it was over we went back into the building and took some police officers up to search the building. Our lunch period is from 12 to 12:45PM. All of us had left the sixth floor to see the President.
(LOL)
And this one, somehow, too:
Excerpt from Lovelady’s 11/22/63 FBI report
On November 22nd, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 PM watching the presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle. He could not tell from which direction the shots came. He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelly started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository building. During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw any suspicious individuals.
And this one by William Shelley!:
William Shelley’s first “Affidavit in Any Fact” to the DPD on 11/22/63
Today approximately 12:30 PM November 22nd, 1963 I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the president in the motorcade. The president's car was almost halfway from Houston St. to the triple underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn't tell where they were coming from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Cavalry who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the 1st floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors. I left Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevator.
Unfortunately, this one doesn't address the issue:
William Shelley’s second “Affidavit in Any Fact” to the DPD on 11/22/63
Approximately October 10th or 12th, 1963 a man by the name of Lee Oswald w/male/ 21, came to work where I do. I was put in charge of him by Mr. Truly to show him what to do. I have been working close with his man since he has been there. This man stayed by himself most of the time and would go for a walk at noon time. Lee would bring his lunch usually and usually eat with us in the lounge and read the paper. He would usually read about politics. Today I arrived for work about 8:00 AM and went about my usual duties. Lee was already filling some orders just outside my office. I saw him periodically all morning with the exception of when we were on the 6th floor. At noon I started eating my lunch in my office and I went outside to see the president. After the president's accident, I started checking around and I missed Lee. I asked Mr. Truly about him and he told me he had not seen him. I didn't see Lee until the police brought him in to the police Homicide Bureau.
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I don't believe that the person marked as being Lovelady in that Darnell frame is Lovelady. The image has clearly been altered to help give the appearance that it is Lovelady. However, just for the sake of argument, what are the ramifications if it is Lovelady? Give it to me here in short form. I don't feel like reading through the thread.
I don't believe that the person marked as being Lovelady in that Darnell frame is Lovelady.
What is this belief based on?
The image has clearly been altered to help give the appearance that it is Lovelady.
Errr...no offence, Tim, but that has a sightly Tinfoil whiff about it.
What are you basing this claim on?
However, just for the sake of argument, what are the ramifications if it is Lovelady?
Ironically, all this is your fault.
You posted Vicki Adams' lost interview.
In it we hear Vicki, in her own words, confirming she saw Lovelady and Shelley. More importantly, she confirms that she made some trivial corrections to the transcript of her WC testimony. One of these typos is on the same page as the claim she made about seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor meaning that she was aware of this claim in her WC testimony and didn't have a problem with it.
Up to that point I had accepted the claim that the evil, evil WC Sham had inserted the Shelley/Lovelady claim into her testimony.
The lost interview proved this was not the case.
So, I did something not many researchers had thought to do - I took Vicki's testimony at face value and accepted that she did, indeed, race downstairs within seconds of the shots being fired and interacted with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD building approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
This had a few ramifications of its own:
1] The Tom Dillard pic, taken between 10 - 15 seconds after the shots and showing an empty window where Vicki and her colleagues were supposed to be, now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced off as the limo reached the underpass, followed closely by Dorothy Garner.
2] The Stroud document now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced down and out of the building before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators. That's the only way Vicki/Sandra could have made it down the back stairs before Truly/Baker ascended the same stairs, without either party being aware of the other.
3] The two white men in the area near the first floor elevators reported by Baker could now be identified as Shelley and Lovelady.
4] Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Rather than Shelley/Lovelady discrediting Vicki's account, it's the other way round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
After the shots Shelley ran across the Elm St Ext and bumped into an hysterical Gloria coming the other way, "hollering" about the President being shot. After telling officer Joe Smith about the shooting, Gloria (accompanied by Karan Hicks) made her way to the front steps where she told Lovelady and others about the shooting. Shelley followed behind as he returned to the steps. The Darnell footage shows the moment Gloria has just arrived at the steps and is telling Lovelady about the shooting. Shelley is walking with his back to the camera, returning from across the street, and turns to his left as he reaches the bottom of the steps in time to see Baker rushing towards him.
If there was further footage taken of this area we would see Baker, followed by Lovelady and Shelley, ascend the front steps and enter the building. Truly would be close behind.
Shelley and Lovelady made their way immediately toward the back of the first floor where Vicki called out to them as she rushed to the loading dock door. Seconds later Truly and Baker, who had been talking in the lobby, arrived in the same area.
Identifying Lovelady in Darnell is part of the proof that he and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination.
In their WC testimonies both men testified that they were on the steps when Gloria came running up.
That it was at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived.
That after leaving the steps they turned and saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
The Darnell footage demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that these are all falsehoods. This is confirmed by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It is also confirmed by the account of Vicki Adams, who saw these men near the elevators on the first floor, approximately 60 seconds after the assassination.
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
How did your "Shelley" get such a receding hairline?
-
Lovelady and Shelley did not say in their early affidavits that they entered the TSBD front door about 30 seconds after the final shot.
Adams and Styles not seeing Oswald on the stairs does not mean that he couldn't have been up on the sixth floor during the assassination.
Just to clarify, Tim, I've not said anything about their affidavits mentioning 30 seconds.
You are responding to Tom who is giving a false account of the arguments I am presenting. Tom has a very loose grip of the facts concerning this case and is more interested in trolling than anything else.
BTW, I agree about Adams and Styles not being able to tell if Oswald were on the back stairs or not.
I've never understood this point.
The stairs were an enclosed L-shape with heavy doors top and bottom. Two women rattling down creaky wooden stairs in an enclosed space wouldn't have been aware of Oswald directly behind them, let alone on another floor.
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
How did your "Shelley" get such a receding hairline?
Is there any chance you could give the trolling a rest for a while, thomas.
You have been reduced to arguing that a blurry, grainy image shows a receding hairline (which it doesn't even show). Could you be any more desperate?
You're a sad troll.
You have noting to contribute.
-
Just to clarify, Tim, I've not said anything about their affidavits mentioning 30 seconds.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Oh.
My bad.
Question:
How soon after the final shot do you want them to enter the TSBD front door in order for your CT to work?
You do want them back by the elevators in time for Adams and Baker to see them there, don't you?
-- Tom
-
Thomas asked: How did your "Shelley" get such a receding hairline?
You have been reduced to arguing that a blurry, grainy image shows a receding hairline (which it doesn't even show). Could you be any more desperate?
In other words, childish danny BOY o'meara is stumped.
-
I don't believe that the person marked as being Lovelady in that Darnell frame is Lovelady.
What is this belief based on?
It's based on the fact that Lovelady is seen in Couch walking westward.
The image has clearly been altered to help give the appearance that it is Lovelady.
Errr...no offence, Tim, but that has a sightly Tinfoil whiff about it.
What are you basing this claim on?
I'm basing it on what is seen in the Darnell frames when zooming in. That image looks like it has been overly enhanced.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Darnell%20Gallery
However, just for the sake of argument, what are the ramifications if it is Lovelady?
Ironically, all this is your fault.
You posted Vicki Adams' lost interview.
In it we hear Vicki, in her own words, confirming she saw Lovelady and Shelley. More importantly, she confirms that she made some trivial corrections to the transcript of her WC testimony. One of these typos is on the same page as the claim she made about seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor meaning that she was aware of this claim in her WC testimony and didn't have a problem with it.
Up to that point I had accepted the claim that the evil, evil WC Sham had inserted the Shelley/Lovelady claim into her testimony.
The lost interview proved this was not the case.
So, I did something not many researchers had thought to do - I took Vicki's testimony at face value and accepted that she did, indeed, race downstairs within seconds of the shots being fired and interacted with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD building approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
This had a few ramifications of its own:
1] The Tom Dillard pic, taken between 10 - 15 seconds after the shots and showing an empty window where Vicki and her colleagues were supposed to be, now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced off as the limo reached the underpass, followed closely by Dorothy Garner.
2] The Stroud document now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced down and out of the building before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators. That's the only way Vicki/Sandra could have made it down the back stairs before Truly/Baker ascended the same stairs, without either party being aware of the other.
3] The two white men in the area near the first floor elevators reported by Baker could now be identified as Shelley and Lovelady.
4] Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Rather than Shelley/Lovelady discrediting Vicki's account, it's the other way round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
After the shots Shelley ran across the Elm St Ext and bumped into an hysterical Gloria coming the other way, "hollering" about the President being shot. After telling officer Joe Smith about the shooting, Gloria (accompanied by Karan Hicks) made her way to the front steps where she told Lovelady and others about the shooting. Shelley followed behind as he returned to the steps. The Darnell footage shows the moment Gloria has just arrived at the steps and is telling Lovelady about the shooting. Shelley is walking with his back to the camera, returning from across the street, and turns to his left as he reaches the bottom of the steps in time to see Baker rushing towards him.
If there was further footage taken of this area we would see Baker, followed by Lovelady and Shelley, ascend the front steps and enter the building. Truly would be close behind.
Shelley and Lovelady made their way immediately toward the back of the first floor where Vicki called out to them as she rushed to the loading dock door. Seconds later Truly and Baker, who had been talking in the lobby, arrived in the same area.
Identifying Lovelady in Darnell is part of the proof that he and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination.
In their WC testimonies both men testified that they were on the steps when Gloria came running up.
That it was at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived.
That after leaving the steps they turned and saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
The Darnell footage demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that these are all falsehoods. This is confirmed by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It is also confirmed by the account of Vicki Adams, who saw these men near the elevators on the first floor, approximately 60 seconds after the assassination.
I don't see how any of those are ramifications. What are they ramifications of? You have Lovelady, Shelley, and Victoria Adams all lying, but what is the big point that you're trying to make? Or do you even have one?
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Oh.
My bad.
Question:
How soon after the final shot do you want them to enter the TSBD front door in order for your CT to work?
You do want them back by the elevators in time for Adams and Baker to see them there, don't you?
-- Tom
You descended into lies and misrepresentation quite some time ago, little thomas.
You're a sad little troll who has nothing to contribute.
You've been made to look a real fool in front of the forum and now want to stifle any kind of discussion.
All you've got left is the utterly pathetic insistence that you can see a receding hairline in the image below, as if that has any significance, as if that makes up for how completely your half-baked arguments have been crushed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX1H8zy8/Shelley-Darnellclose.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You're an embarrassment.
Run along.
-
Just to clarify, Tim, I've not said anything about their affidavits mentioning 30 seconds.
You are responding to Tom who is giving a false account of the arguments I am presenting. Tom has a very loose grip of the facts concerning this case and is more interested in trolling than anything else.
BTW, I agree about Adams and Styles not being able to tell if Oswald were on the back stairs or not.
I've never understood this point.
The stairs were an enclosed L-shape with heavy doors top and bottom. Two women rattling down creaky wooden stairs in an enclosed space wouldn't have been aware of Oswald directly behind them, let alone on another floor.
Yeah, there really are no ramifications for Lovelady in Darnell. Barry Ernest seem to have tried to close a loophole in his narrative that would have allowed Oswald to slip through. He changed Dorothy Garner's telling of "not seeing the girls enter the stairwell" to "her seeing them enter the stairwell".
-
It's based on the fact that Lovelady is seen in Couch walking westward.
Oh brother, another 'it looks like Lovelady to me' loser.
The "fact"... :D
What evidence are you basing this identification on other than your OPINION that it looks like Lovelady on the extension?
I'm basing it on what is seen in the Darnell frames when zooming in. That image looks like it has been overly enhanced.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Darnell%20Gallery
As I suspected, utter nonsense.
"overly enhanced"... :D
I don't see how any of those are ramifications. What are they ramifications of? You have Lovelady, Shelley, and Victoria Adams all lying, but what is the big point that you're trying to make? Or do you even have one?
It's not my problem that you don't understand what the word 'ramifications' means.
Learn English...what can I say.
I have Vicki Adams lying?? ???
WTF?
What a waste of time your post is.
Really...what was the point of it?
-
You descended into lies and misrepresentation quite some time ago, little thomas.
You're a sad little troll who has nothing to contribute.
You've been made to look a real fool in front of the forum and now want to stifle any kind of discussion.
All you've got left is the utterly pathetic insistence that you can see a receding hairline in the image below, as if that has any significance, as if that makes up for how completely your half-baked arguments have been crushed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX1H8zy8/Shelley-Darnellclose.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You're an embarrassment.
Run along.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Why did you enlarge it so much that it's impossible to tell if it's even a human being?
Reasonable people probably already suspect that you're a charlatan.
Why confirm their suspicion?
A reasonable enlargement would prove you wrong, but at least it wouldn't expose you as a shyster.
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
It's amazing how much his hairline looks like Ochus V. Campbell's (who was watching the motorcade with his colleague, Roy Truly, who himself can be seen in the Darnell clip watching Baker run past him towards the steps), wouldn't you say?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
-- Tom
PS It's telling that you claim that the Darnell clip is too "fuzzy" to see Campbell's receding hairline, but not so "fuzzy" as to be unable to discern Lovelady on the steps.
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Why did you enlarge it so much that it's impossible to tell if it's even a human being?
Reasonable people must already suspect that you're a charlatan.
Why confirm their suspicion?
A reasonable enlargement would prove you wrong, but at least it wouldn't expose you as a shyster.
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
It's amazing how much his hairline looks like Ochus V. Campbell's (who was watching the motorcade with his colleague, Roy Truly, who himself can be seen in the Darnell clip watching Baker run past him towards the steps), wouldn't you say?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
-- Tom
Little thomas, you are so sad it's unreal.
-
Little thomas, you are so sad it's unreal.
Dear danny "I am Stumped" o'meara,
That all you got?
-- Tom
-
Dear danny "I am Stumped" o'meara,
That all you got?
-- Tom
What else is there to say about you?
You're a sad little troll.
Nothing more.
-
What else is there to say about you?
You're a sad little troll.
Nothing more.
What a paranoiac little loser you are.
-
Oh brother, another 'it looks like Lovelady to me' loser.
The "fact"... :D
What evidence are you basing this identification on other than your OPINION that it looks like Lovelady on the extension?
It is widely accepted that it is Lovelady in Couch.
As I suspected, utter nonsense.
"overly enhanced"... :D
It is overly enhanced.
I have Vicki Adams lying?? ???
WTF?
The Warren Commission did not alter Vicki's testimony.
Vicki altered her version of events for Barry Ernest.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4552.msg169767.html#msg169767
-
What a paranoiac little loser you are.
This thread is a written record of what a genuine loser you are.
That you are nothing more than a sad little troll.
I am more than happy to look back on the mass of evidence I've presented here, and the arguments emanating from that evidence.
Your contribution has been 'it looks like Lovelady to me' and 'it looks like Ochus Campbell to me'.
Could you be any more of a loser?
-
It is widely accepted that it is Lovelady in Couch.
So, it's just something you accept because you believe it's "widely accepted"
You're unaware of how the testimonial evidence relates to the identification?
It is overly enhanced.
I'm not sure repeating the phrase makes it real.
It seems like something you've just made up.
Is the photo you accept as showing Lovelady on Elm "overly enhanced"?
The Warren Commission did not alter Vicki's testimony.
Vicki altered her version of events for Barry Ernest.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4552.msg169767.html#msg169767
Yeah, Tim, the post you were supposed to be responding to had nothing to do with Vicki changing the detail about Shelley and Lovelady to Barry Ernest.
It was about accepting the fact that she was telling the truth when she originally testified and the RAMIFICATIONS of taking her WC testimony at face value.
Here it is again (look up the meaning of 'ramifications' before reading)
Ironically, all this is your fault.
You posted Vicki Adams' lost interview.
In it we hear Vicki, in her own words, confirming she saw Lovelady and Shelley. More importantly, she confirms that she made some trivial corrections to the transcript of her WC testimony. One of these typos is on the same page as the claim she made about seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor meaning that she was aware of this claim in her WC testimony and didn't have a problem with it.
Up to that point I had accepted the claim that the evil, evil WC Sham had inserted the Shelley/Lovelady claim into her testimony.
The lost interview proved this was not the case.
So, I did something not many researchers had thought to do - I took Vicki's testimony at face value and accepted that she did, indeed, race downstairs within seconds of the shots being fired and interacted with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD building approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
This had a few ramifications of its own:
1] The Tom Dillard pic, taken between 10 - 15 seconds after the shots and showing an empty window where Vicki and her colleagues were supposed to be, now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced off as the limo reached the underpass, followed closely by Dorothy Garner.
2] The Stroud document now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced down and out of the building before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators. That's the only way Vicki/Sandra could have made it down the back stairs before Truly/Baker ascended the same stairs, without either party being aware of the other.
3] The two white men in the area near the first floor elevators reported by Baker could now be identified as Shelley and Lovelady.
4] Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Rather than Shelley/Lovelady discrediting Vicki's account, it's the other way round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
After the shots Shelley ran across the Elm St Ext and bumped into an hysterical Gloria coming the other way, "hollering" about the President being shot. After telling officer Joe Smith about the shooting, Gloria (accompanied by Karan Hicks) made her way to the front steps where she told Lovelady and others about the shooting. Shelley followed behind as he returned to the steps. The Darnell footage shows the moment Gloria has just arrived at the steps and is telling Lovelady about the shooting. Shelley is walking with his back to the camera, returning from across the street, and turns to his left as he reaches the bottom of the steps in time to see Baker rushing towards him.
If there was further footage taken of this area we would see Baker, followed by Lovelady and Shelley, ascend the front steps and enter the building. Truly would be close behind.
Shelley and Lovelady made their way immediately toward the back of the first floor where Vicki called out to them as she rushed to the loading dock door. Seconds later Truly and Baker, who had been talking in the lobby, arrived in the same area.
Identifying Lovelady in Darnell is part of the proof that he and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination.
In their WC testimonies both men testified that they were on the steps when Gloria came running up.
That it was at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived.
That after leaving the steps they turned and saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
The Darnell footage demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that these are all falsehoods. This is confirmed by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It is also confirmed by the account of Vicki Adams, who saw these men near the elevators on the first floor, approximately 60 seconds after the assassination.
-
If you believe that is Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St Ext on the Couch Film, then you seriously have to question everything in the Lovelady and Shelley WC Testimonies. That, or the assigned Couch Film timeline is wrong.
-
So, it's just something you accept because you believe it's "widely accepted"
You're unaware of how the testimonial evidence relates to the identification?
How does testimonial evidence affect what we can see with our own eyes?
I'm not sure repeating the phrase makes it real.
It seems like something you've just made up.
Is the photo you accept as showing Lovelady on Elm "overly enhanced"?
I do not believe that Gerda over-enhanced the clip of the Couch film.
Yeah, Tim, the post you were supposed to be responding to had nothing to do with Vicki changing the detail about Shelley and Lovelady to Barry Ernest.
It was about accepting the fact that she was telling the truth when she originally testified and the RAMIFICATIONS of taking her WC testimony at face value.
You essentially said that Vicki lied. If you're going to claim the Lovelady and Shelley lied, then you have to own your claim about Vicki.
I don't believe that Lovelady and Shelley lied. Just as I don't believe that Benavides lied when he said that he stayed in his truck for several minutes after the Tippit shooting. Just as I don't believe that many other witnesses lied about timespans and other things that they got wrong or remembered wrong.
-
How does testimonial evidence affect what we can see with our own eyes?
I do not believe that Gerda over-enhanced the clip of the Couch film.
You essentially said that Vicki lied. If you're going to claim the Lovelady and Shelley lied, then you have to own your claim about Vicki.
I don't believe that Lovelady and Shelley lied. Just as I don't believe that Benavides lied when he said that he stayed in his truck for several minutes after the Tippit shooting. Just as I don't believe that many other witnesses lied about timespans and other things that they got wrong or remembered wrong.
So are you saying that Lovelady and Shelley were simply mistaken about waiting 3+ minutes BEFORE going down the Elm St Ext? This Couch Film snippet showing them going down the Elm St Ext is supposed to be roughly 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. I know some people are not very good at measuring the passage of time, but there is a huge difference between 30 Seconds and 3+ Minutes.
-
Little thomas, you are so sad it's unreal.
Widdle danny BOY o'meara,
Are you afraid to click on the links?
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
Poor widdle boy.
-- Tom
-
If you believe that is Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St Ext on the Couch Film, then you seriously have to question everything in the Lovelady and Shelley WC Testimonies. That, or the assigned Couch Film timeline is wrong.
Dear Royell,
Don't you want them approaching your HUGE GATES?
-- Tom
-
How does testimonial evidence affect what we can see with our own eyes?
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMQ2KzcZ/Shelley-Lovelady-Dunkelclose.png) (https://postimages.org/) (https://postimages.org/)
The above image is taken from the Dunkel footage you posted.
It is impossible to make a positive identification of anyone from this clip.
I find it amazing that you believe you can make such an identification and are so sure about it.
The testimonial evidence must be used to determine whether this identification is correct as it cannot be made "with our own eyes".
In this case, the testimonial evidence flatly refutes such an identification.
The image, taken around 25 seconds after the shooting, is way too soon for any scenario that involves Shelley and Lovelady walking along the Elm St Ext. at this point.
However, there's not much point getting into it as you are clearly unfamiliar with the evidence relating to this and have just blundered into this thread with some kind of ill-informed, preconceived ideas.
I do not believe that Gerda over-enhanced the clip of the Couch film.
Neither do I.
Look at the image above and tell me you can see anything positive about your identification.
Doubtless you will simply carry on saying you can positively identify both men. ::)
It must be noted that the two men walking along the extension in the Dunkel clip are not walking together. The 'Lovelady' figure starts off behind the 'Shelley' figure but is walking a lot quicker. He passes by 'Shelley' and accelerates away. By the end of the clip the two men are nowhere near each other.
You essentially said that Vicki lied. If you're going to claim the Lovelady and Shelley lied, then you have to own your claim about Vicki.
I don't believe that Lovelady and Shelley lied. Just as I don't believe that Benavides lied when he said that he stayed in his truck for several minutes after the Tippit shooting. Just as I don't believe that many other witnesses lied about timespans and other things that they got wrong or remembered wrong.
There are two contradictory versions of Adams' account of seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.
In her statement to the DPD, her WC testimony and the lost interview, she is insistent she saw Shelley and Lovelady.
Decades later she changes this detail, it would seem due to a constant campaign of threats to her life.
Rather than engage with the ramifications of Vicki seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor around 60 seconds after the assassination, you childishly keep hiding behind the fact she changed this detail when talking to Ernest.
Like most Nutters, you seem to be unaware that the forum is a written record.
Everyone can see how childish you're being and your silly attempts at avoiding the debate.
It's clear you have no intention of discussing this issue and will keep on trotting out your ill-informed, unsupported nonsense.
-
Here's your last chance to actually have a genuine discussion about this issue.
Rather than hiding behind the fact that Ernest reports Vicki changed this single aspect of her account, engage with the debate.
Let's hear your counter-arguments, let's hear how you have reached your own conclusions.
Don't just childishly evade.
Ironically, all this is your fault.
You posted Vicki Adams' lost interview.
In it we hear Vicki, in her own words, confirming she saw Lovelady and Shelley. More importantly, she confirms that she made some trivial corrections to the transcript of her WC testimony. One of these typos is on the same page as the claim she made about seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor meaning that she was aware of this claim in her WC testimony and didn't have a problem with it.
Up to that point I had accepted the claim that the evil, evil WC Sham had inserted the Shelley/Lovelady claim into her testimony.
The lost interview proved this was not the case.
So, I did something not many researchers had thought to do - I took Vicki's testimony at face value and accepted that she did, indeed, race downstairs within seconds of the shots being fired and interacted with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD building approximately 60 seconds after the shooting.
This had a few ramifications of its own:
1] The Tom Dillard pic, taken between 10 - 15 seconds after the shots and showing an empty window where Vicki and her colleagues were supposed to be, now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced off as the limo reached the underpass, followed closely by Dorothy Garner.
2] The Stroud document now made sense. Vicki and Sandra had raced down and out of the building before Truly and Baker reached the area near the elevators. That's the only way Vicki/Sandra could have made it down the back stairs before Truly/Baker ascended the same stairs, without either party being aware of the other.
3] The two white men in the area near the first floor elevators reported by Baker could now be identified as Shelley and Lovelady.
4] Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Rather than Shelley/Lovelady discrediting Vicki's account, it's the other way round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
After the shots Shelley ran across the Elm St Ext and bumped into an hysterical Gloria coming the other way, "hollering" about the President being shot. After telling officer Joe Smith about the shooting, Gloria (accompanied by Karan Hicks) made her way to the front steps where she told Lovelady and others about the shooting. Shelley followed behind as he returned to the steps. The Darnell footage shows the moment Gloria has just arrived at the steps and is telling Lovelady about the shooting. Shelley is walking with his back to the camera, returning from across the street, and turns to his left as he reaches the bottom of the steps in time to see Baker rushing towards him.
If there was further footage taken of this area we would see Baker, followed by Lovelady and Shelley, ascend the front steps and enter the building. Truly would be close behind.
Shelley and Lovelady made their way immediately toward the back of the first floor where Vicki called out to them as she rushed to the loading dock door. Seconds later Truly and Baker, who had been talking in the lobby, arrived in the same area.
Identifying Lovelady in Darnell is part of the proof that he and Shelley lied about their movements after the assassination.
In their WC testimonies both men testified that they were on the steps when Gloria came running up.
That it was at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived.
That after leaving the steps they turned and saw Baker and Truly about to enter the building at least 3 minutes after the assassination.
The Darnell footage demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that these are all falsehoods. This is confirmed by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It is also confirmed by the account of Vicki Adams, who saw these men near the elevators on the first floor, approximately 60 seconds after the assassination.
-
You gotta remember these images are from 1963. Men/Boys did Not walk closely alongside each other or even sit closely together on the bench seat of an auto. So, 1 guy walking ahead of the other on the Dunkel images does Not mean they do not know each other or are not walking down the Elm St Ext together. Yeah, the images are not Proof this is Shelley/Lovelady, but their attire does fit along with their size disparity. There are plenty of men wearing suits, but Lovelady's shirt "color clash" is tough to find anywhere else inside Dealey Plaza. The Joan Rivers "Fashion Police" would have been all over that thing.
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It's not like I care about this silly issue, but I fail to understand how the enhanced photos at Prayer Man don't settle it, as they did for Bart Kamp and do for me, I apparently can't post the images, but they clearly show Lovelady's distinctive shirt. Do people think these were faked or something?
Look halfway down the page, where Bart says "I applied various ways of sharpening with overall decent results to be absolutely positive that these two are Shelley and Lovelady. Lovelady’s shirt is a dead give away and so is the shape of Shelley, compare that with the collage below."
http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shellly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/
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You're late to the party involving the multiple issues surrounding the ID of these 2 guys moving down the Elm St Ext. The credibility of the WC testimonies of (1) Lovelady, (2) Shelley, & (3) Adams, hang in the balance of ID'ing these 2 guys. Also the ID of (4) Calvery, and (5) The current timeline assigned to this Couch Film snippet showing these 2 guys moving down the Elm Ext. "Prayer Man" has always been a One Trick Pony.
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[...]
Dear Comrade Storing,
How is the correct identification, by Sandy Larsen and me, of big/tall dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing South-West Publishing Company colleagues on Elm Street during the motorcade, and the concomitant correct identification of black-blouse-wearing / black-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Calvery and her all-in-white colleague (Karan Hicks or Carol Reed) as they're standing on (or going up) the TSBD steps in the black-and-white Couch-Darnell clip a "one-trick pony"?
Because it doesn't support your grandiose OFFICER JOE MARSHALL SMITH AND THE HUGE GATES conspiracy theory?
-- Tom
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"One Trick Pony" is in reference to the "Prayer Man" issue. The power of The Ring is consuming you.
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"One Trick Pony" is in reference to the "Prayer Man" issue.
You mean you don't support danny BOY o'meara's conspiracy theory that involves Calvary's bellowing at Lovelady on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
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You're late to the party involving the multiple issues surrounding the ID of these 2 guys moving down the Elm St Ext. The credibility of the WC testimonies of (1) Lovelady, (2) Shelley, & (3) Adams, hang in the balance of ID'ing these 2 guys. Also the ID of (4) Calvery, and (5) The current timeline assigned to this Couch Film snippet showing these 2 guys moving down the Elm Ext. "Prayer Man" has always been a One Trick Pony.
You show your ignorance here. I happen to think the Prayer Man theory is goofy, but the Prayer Man site is a goldmine and Bart Kamp has done invaluable work. The photo disposes of any issue as to whether that was Shelley and Lovelady walking down the dead-end portion of Elm as they claimed. I did a very intensive study of everything Shelley and Lovelady ever said, and there were no great inconsistencies. The only real outlier (or is that "out liar") is Adams, Apparently the fact that Sandra Styles disagreed with everything Adams said means "they" got to her, too, eh?
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You mean you don't support danny BOY o'meara's conspiracy theory that involves Calvary's bellowing at Lovelady on the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
None of the above has anything to do with "Prayer Man". Try consuming 1/2 a loaf of Elvin Bread. You must be suffering from malnutrition.
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You show your ignorance here. I happen to think the Prayer Man theory is goofy, but the Prayer Man site is a goldmine and Bart Kamp has done invaluable work. The photo disposes of any issue as to whether that was Shelley and Lovelady walking down the dead-end portion of Elm as they claimed. I did a very intensive study of everything Shelley and Lovelady ever said, and there were no great inconsistencies. The only real outlier (or is that "out liar") is Adams, Apparently the fact that Sandra Styles disagreed with everything Adams said means "they" got to her, too, eh?
What "photo"? Who took a "photo" of 2 guys moving down the Elm St Ext? We are talking about a film snippet/still frames from the Couch Film showing 2 guys moving down the Elm St Ext toward the railroad yard.
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What "photo"? Who took a "photo" of 2 guys moving down the Elm St Ext? We are talking about a film snippet/still frames from the Couch Film showing 2 guys moving down the Elm St Ext toward the railroad yard.
At least look at the Prayer Man site before you keep blathering. Bart isolated and enhanced frames from the Couch film, and they clearly and unequivocally show Lovelady's distinctive shirt. Prayer Man may be a one-trick pony, but you are beating a dead horse.
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None of the above has anything to do with "Prayer Man."
Dear Comrade Storing,
When you say "Prayer Man," do you mean a female employee of the TSBD as she's "holding" the reflection of the shiny door handle?
Who said it did?
-- Tom
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As I recall from my research (and this is from memory), there is no doubt Calvery encountered Shelley and Lovelady on or near the TSBD steps. Lovelady made clear he wasn't wearing a watch and guessed her arrival was three minutes after the shots. Shelley guessed three minutes after the shots based solely on his estimate of the time that she must have taken to travel from her location along the motorcade route. The time she actually took is whatever the hell she took, which I assume was less than their estimates - but who cares? Both said they first went to the island. Shelley said he saw Truly and Baker at the TSBD entrance but did not see them enter. Lovelady said he looked back when someone shouted and saw them enter. They then fast-walked or trotted down the dead-end part of Elm to the first set of tracks and stayed a short time. One of them, I believe Shelley, said they watched autos being searched in the parking lot for a brief time. They then entered through the open double wooden doors on the west side at the Houston Street dock. Shelley, as I recall, saw a Black guy (perhaps Piper?). Lovelady said several people had reentered the first floor and he saw Shelley either talking to a woman or a woman standing near him, whom he thought could be Adams but he wasn't sure. This would suggest Shelley and Adams were talking about two slightly different time periods - but who cares? Both said some distinctly "unhelpful" things, including thinking the shots had come from the west (Lovelady actually saying the knoll). Wouldn't their three-minute estimates also be grossly at odds with the official story of the lunchroom encounter? Do you seriously believe the WC lawyers browbeat Shelley and Lovelady into telling absolute whoppers just to discredit Adams - and, if so, how do you explain Styles completely discrediting Adams for no apparent reason (other than the truth) long after the fact? I fail to see how any of this adds up to any big deal.
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the Prayer Man site is a goldmine and Bart Kamp has done invaluable work.
I agree. I use that site from time to time.
Several years ago, I joined the Facebook group dedicated to discussing Prayerman. After a couple of days of posting there, Bart Kamp politely asked me to let myself out of the group. I did so. I thought that was nice of him.
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At least look at the Prayer Man site before you keep blathering. Bart isolated and enhanced frames from the Couch film, and they clearly and unequivocally show Lovelady's distinctive shirt. Prayer Man may be a one-trick pony, but you are beating a dead horse.
Oh, so you now wanna take back your claim of a "Photo"? I just commented on the Lovelady shirt of that guy going down the Elm Ext being Joan Rivers Fashion Police worthy. You have no idea what has transpired throughout the course of this thread.
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Oh, so you now wanna take back your claim of a "Photo"? I just commented on the Lovelady shirt of that guy going down the Elm Ext being Joan Rivers Fashion Police worthy. You have no idea what has transpired throughout the course of this thread.
What I called "photos" is in fact a series of stills that Bart isolated from the Couch film. Is this an issue, something I need to "take back"? You are quite right that I have no idea what has transpired on this thread or how it has reached 25 pages because it involves what I regard as a non-issue and several participants I regard as some of the biggest loons on this forum. I have no idea what your Joan Rivers reference is supposed to mean. I simply said that if you or anyone else doubts that is Shelley and Lovelady, you (or they, as the case may be) are demonstrably wrong.
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Oh, so you now wanna take back your claim of a "Photo"? I just commented on the Lovelady shirt of that guy going down the Elm Ext being Joan Rivers Fashion Police worthy. You have no idea what has transpired throughout the course of this thread.
Dear Comrade Storing,
You're full of high-fructose beans.
Lance was obviously referring to the frame from Couch-Darnell in which Bart Kamp, by adjusting the contrast, etc., was able to make more distinct the stripes in the "Lovelady" figure's shirt.
You sound desperate.
-- Tom
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At considerable risk to my sanity, I skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread. I must now congratulate myself on my wisdom in previously ignoring it. I did note, however, that Tim made pretty much every point that had occurred to me, including (1) not thinking the guy labeled in red as Shelley is Shelley at all, and (2) not quite understanding what the hell this thread is all about. I did see a couple of references to the Huge Gates, and that's always good for a giggle.
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As I recall from my research (and this is from memory), there is no doubt Calvery encountered Shelley and Lovelady on or near the TSBD steps. Lovelady made clear he wasn't wearing a watch and guessed her arrival was three minutes after the shots. Shelley guessed three minutes after the shots based solely on his estimate of the time that she must have taken to travel from her location along the motorcade route. The time she actually took is whatever the hell she took, which I assume was less than their estimates - but who cares? Both said they first went to the island. Shelley said he saw Truly and Baker at the TSBD entrance but did not see them enter. Lovelady said he looked back when someone shouted and saw them enter. They then fast-walked or trotted down the dead-end part of Elm to the first set of tracks and stayed a short time. One of them, I believe Shelley, said they watched autos being searched in the parking lot for a brief time. They then entered through the open double wooden doors on the west side at the Houston Street dock. Shelley, as I recall, saw a Black guy (perhaps Piper?). Lovelady said several people had reentered the first floor and he saw Shelley either talking to a woman or a woman standing near him, whom he thought could be Adams but he wasn't sure. This would suggest Shelley and Adams were talking about two slightly different time periods - but who cares? Both said some distinctly "unhelpful" things, including thinking the shots had come from the west (Lovelady actually saying the knoll). Wouldn't their three-minute estimates also be grossly at odds with the official story of the lunchroom encounter? Do you seriously believe the WC lawyers browbeat Shelley and Lovelady into telling absolute whoppers just to discredit Adams - and, if so, how do you explain Styles completely discrediting Adams for no apparent reason (other than the truth) long after the fact? I fail to see how any of this adds up to any big deal.
Just to try to drag the old man's nonsense into some kind of reality.
The image he believes conclusively shows Lovelady (and which cannot be questioned) was taken about 25 - 30 seconds after the head shot.
In this few seconds the old-timer has Gloria making her way back to the front steps from her position down Elm Street.
Telling Lovelady, and anyone listening, about the shooting of the President.
Lovelady and Shelley make their way across the Elm St Ext to the "little. old island" where they stay for a while and then make their way down the Elm St Ext where they are captured on film by Darnell and Couch.
It simply can't happen.
Let's ignore that BOTH men stated they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived at the steps.
Let's ignore that Shelley stated he met Gloria at the island in his affidavit but then insisted he stayed on the steps before Gloria arrived in his WC testimony.
Let's ignore that Shelley states he turned and saw Baker about to enter the steps when he was on the island even though the two men in Darnell/Couch are already on the extension as Baker races across from his bike.
Let's ignore that Shelley told Patricia and George Nash that Truly and Baker didn't enter the TSBD building for 5 or 6 minutes!
Let's ignore that, before re-entering the TSBD, in his affidavit Lovelady doesn't even move from the steps, in his FBI statements he raced to the area where the limo stopped on Elm Street, in his WC testimony he made his way to the railroad yard and in his HSCA interview he didn't even re-enter the building for 20 minutes!
Let's just ignore all this massively contradictory evidence you are either unfamiliar with or don't know how to process and just explain to us how Gloria gets to the steps, tells her story, Shelley and Lovelady go out to the island and are then filmed walking along the extension IN 25 TO 30 SECONDS
Try to be rational.
Try to apply common sense.
And, at all times, ask yourself "who the is man that Gloria is interacting with in Darnell"?
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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What I called "photos" is in fact a series of stills that Bart isolated from the Couch film. Is this an issue, something I need to "take back"? You are quite right that I have no idea what has transpired on this thread or how it has reached 25 pages because it involves what I regard as a non-issue and several participants I regard as some of the biggest loons on this forum. I have no idea what your Joan Rivers reference is supposed to mean. I simply said that if you or anyone else doubts that is Shelley and Lovelady, you (or they, as the case may be) are demonstrably wrong.
What I called "photos" is in fact a series of stills that Bart isolated from the Couch film
No, it isn't.
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As I recall from my research (and this is from memory), there is no doubt Calvery encountered Shelley and Lovelady on or near the TSBD steps. Lovelady made clear he wasn't wearing a watch and guessed her arrival was three minutes after the shots. Shelley guessed three minutes after the shots based solely on his estimate of the time that she must have taken to travel from her location along the motorcade route. The time she actually took is whatever the hell she took, which I assume was less than their estimates - but who cares? Both said they first went to the island. Shelley said he saw Truly and Baker at the TSBD entrance but did not see them enter. Lovelady said he looked back when someone shouted and saw them enter. They then fast-walked or trotted down the dead-end part of Elm to the first set of tracks and stayed a short time. One of them, I believe Shelley, said they watched autos being searched in the parking lot for a brief time. They then entered through the open double wooden doors on the west side at the Houston Street dock. Shelley, as I recall, saw a Black guy (perhaps Piper?). Lovelady said several people had reentered the first floor and he saw Shelley either talking to a woman or a woman standing near him, whom he thought could be Adams but he wasn't sure. This would suggest Shelley and Adams were talking about two slightly different time periods - but who cares? Both said some distinctly "unhelpful" things, including thinking the shots had come from the west (Lovelady actually saying the knoll). Wouldn't their three-minute estimates also be grossly at odds with the official story of the lunchroom encounter? Do you seriously believe the WC lawyers browbeat Shelley and Lovelady into telling absolute whoppers just to discredit Adams - and, if so, how do you explain Styles completely discrediting Adams for no apparent reason (other than the truth) long after the fact? I fail to see how any of this adds up to any big deal.
Wrong! You're making the same mistake the WC Attorney made. Lovelady made it clear to the WC attorney that he was NOT talking about entering the Houston St dock. He made it clear that there were 2 docks and that he and Shelley entered the dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. Which is very close to the 1st set of railroad tracks that he and Shelley stopped at. This dock makes for a very quick entrance into the TSBD. Also, we can see Officer Baker running toward the TSBD as those 2 guys move down the Elm Ext on the Couch Film. This further discredits the Lovelady/Shelley 3+ minutes timeline. That, or the current timeline of the Couch Film is incorrect, and the Darnell Film timeline would also be incorrect.
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At considerable risk to my sanity, I skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread. I must now congratulate myself on my wisdom in previously ignoring it. I did note, however, that Tim made pretty much every point that had occurred to me, including (1) not thinking the guy labeled in red as Shelley is Shelley at all, and (2) not quite understanding what the hell this thread is all about. I did see a couple of references to the Huge Gates, and that's always good for a giggle.
Danny O'meara seems to think Bill Shelley had an Ochus V. Campbell-like receding hairline.
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
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Danny O'meara seems to think Bill Shelley had an Ochus V. Campbell-like receding hairline.
https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_02/Darnellstabilized2.gif.24644887b631910787b2f94850be49e5.gif
Look at you, like teacher's pet.
Show some backbone, man.
And he treats you like such an idiot. ::)
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Look at you, like teacher's pet.
Show some backbone, man.
And he treats you like such an idiot. ::)
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
You forgot to include the article about Ochus V. Campbell (your "Shelley") which shows his very un-Shelley-like receding hairline.
Here it is, again, for you.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
You forgot to include the article about Ochus V. Campbell (your "Shelley") which shows his very un-Shelley-like receding hairline.
Here it is, again, for you.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
-- Tom
Lil' thomas,
The last count is around 20 trolling posts in this thread alone that you've made about your preciousss Campbell identification.
I could let you go on longer but it's time to put you out of your misery...slowly.
Ochus, Ochus, Ochus...this is what you've been reduced to.
Remember when you used to be an actual researcher who would actually research things?
Have noticed something about the man you think is Campbell in Weigman that is different from the findagrave image?
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What I called "photos" is in fact a series of stills that Bart isolated from the Couch film
No, it isn't.
Actually, it's not. It's Gerda Dunckel. but it is definitive. Other than that, I decline to be sucked into this, er, "discussion."
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Actually, it's not. It's Gerda Dunckel. but it is definitive. Other than that, I decline to be sucked into this, er, "discussion."
Wrong again.
And of course you decline.
You've looked at the case I've put forward in Reply#200 and decided to flee. If there was the slightest weakness in my arguments you would be all over it. It's an intensely cowardly way to approach the arguments.
In front of the forum, you're being ask to outline a potential timeline that explains how Shelley and Lovelady could interact with Gloria, visit the island and then be seen on the extension within 25 - 30 seconds.
It's the simplest thing.
Then you can be on your way.
You have described this identification as "definitive". You need to back this claim up otherwise people might start to get the impression you're just some deluded old man who believes his opinion is fact.
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Have [sic] noticed something [sic; anything] about the man you think is Campbell in Weigman [sic; Wiegman] that is different from the Find-a-Grave image?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
No, but even your "The-Warren-Commission-Was-A-Sham" mentor, John Iacoletti, unwittingly admitted that the gal standing on the north side of Elm Street behind the Secret Service follow-up car in Betzner-3 was wearing big, black-framed glasses. Funny thing is, he stopped referring to her as "Glasses Woman" when he realized that Gloria Calvery (whom he didn't want standing there) always wore big, thick, black-framed glasses! LOL!
Regardless, is my "Ochus V. Campbell" in Wiegman wearing big, thick, easy-to-see black-framed glasses in that fuzzy clip, or is he wearing his smaller, harder-to-see ones?
Gasp . . . is that a faint horizontal line going from his eye towards his ear?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
PS Note Fedora-wearing Roy Truly behind him.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/ochus-virgil-campbell/
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
No, but even your "The-Warren-Commission-Was-A-Sham" mentor, John Iacoletti, unwittingly admitted that the gal standing on the north side of Elm Street behind the Secret Service follow-up car in Betzner-3 was wearing big, black-framed glasses. Funny thing is, he stopped referring to her as "Glasses Woman" when he realized that Gloria Calvery (whom he didn't want standing there) always wore big, thick, black-framed glasses! LOL!
Regardless, is my "Ochus V. Campbell" in Wiegman wearing big, thick, easy-to-see black-framed glasses in that fuzzy clip, or is he wearing his smaller, harder-to-see ones?
Gasp . . . is that a faint horizontal line going from his eye towards his ear?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192066941/ochus-virgil-campbell
PS Note Fedora-wearing Roy Truly behind him.
-- Tom
Regardless, is my "Ochus V. Campbell" in Wiegman wearing big, thick, easy-to-see black-framed glasses in that fuzzy clip, or is he wearing his smaller, harder-to-see ones?
"his smaller, harder-to-see ones" :D :D :D
You funny, lil' thomas ;D
Gasp . . . is that a faint horizontal line going from his eye towards his ear?
:D :D :D
No, it's not.
YOUR Ochus isn't wearing any kind of glasses.
Maybe you'd like to post the image showing he is Thumb1:
Regardless, on the day Ochus was wearing his big, thick easy-to-see glasses.
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[...]
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Do us a favor and find (5' 9" in 1940 when he was 32 years old) Campbell in the Wiegman film or in any other film or photo that was taken during the motorcade right before or right after the shots rang out.
Just remember that Jeraldean Reid (Mrs. R. A. Reid) said she left the steps and was standing near Truly and Campbell on Elm Street Extension in front of the TSBD entrance when the limo was coming by the TSBD.
Thanks!
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Do us a favor and find (5' 9" in 1940) Campbell in the Wiegman film or in any other film or photo that was taken during the motorcade.
Just remember that Jeraldean Reid (Mrs. R. A. Reid) said she left the steps and was standing near Truly and Campbell on Elm Street Extension in front of the TSBD entrance when the limo was coming by the TSBD.
Thanks!
-- Tom
:D :D
You don't seem so sure about YOUR Ochus anymore, lil' thomas.
He's not wearing glasses, so that's not great. Is he stood in front of the TSBD entrance or is the angle of the Weigman image confusing?
Sometimes these things are hard to see.
One thing is for sure - not only is your Ochus not wearing his big, thick, easy-to-see glasses, he's also not wearing his hat Thumb1:
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He's not wearing glasses, so that's not great. Is he stood [sic] in front of the TSBD entrance, or is the angle of the Weigman image confusing?
Sometimes these things are hard to see.
One thing is for sure - not only is your Ochus not wearing his big, thick, easy-to-see glasses, he's also not wearing his hat.
At 5' 9", maybe glasses-and-hat-wearing Ochus got lost in the crowd, photographically speaking, standing out there on Elm Street Extension in front of the entrance.
What's important for our purposes, though, is the fact that your "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell has a receding hairline, but real-deal Shelley didn't.
Making any progress on finding out how Bart Kamp (with an "a") created Lovelady's bald spot and "checkered" / "plaid" shirt in Couch?
-- Tom
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At 5' 9", maybe glasses-and-hat-wearing Ochus got lost in the crowd, photographically speaking, standing out there on Elm Street Extension in front of the entrance.
What's important for our purposes, though, is the fact that your "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell has a receding hairline, but real-deal Shelley didn't.
:D :D
Abandoning your identification, are you?
What a shock.
After trolling for dozens of posts with your new 'discovery' you're just going to give it up with a whimper?
Do some research and you won't make such a fool of yourself.
just as you're doing with your claims about receding hairlines and bald spots.
Making any progress on finding out how Bart Kamp (with an "a") created Lovelady's bald spot and "checkered" / "plaid" shirt in Couch?
-- lil' thomas
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKgJDPNq/Lovelady-PBSSprague-Royell.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Let's see what Gollum makes of the above image.
The middle one (Sprague) is the image Kamp created. The two either side are the clearest images I can come across independent of Kamp.
The Royell image is, by far, the clearest image. Far more clear than the Sprague image.
No checkered pattern.
No bald spot.
Oh dear, Precious.
Maybe the resident troll can throw some light on this - how can the inferior Sprague image show much more detail than the superior Royell image, but only on Lovelady's shirt?,
How can Kamp manipulate an image in such a way that information which wasn't in the original image is brought forward?
PS: What do you think of your bald spot now?
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Wrong! You're making the same mistake the WC Attorney made. Lovelady made it clear to the WC attorney that he was NOT talking about entering the Houston St dock. He made it clear that there were 2 docks and that he and Shelley entered the dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. Which is very close to the 1st set of railroad tracks that he and Shelley stopped at. This dock makes for a very quick entrance into the TSBD. Also, we can see Officer Baker running toward the TSBD as those 2 guys move down the Elm Ext on the Couch Film. This further discredits the Lovelady/Shelley 3+ minutes timeline. That, or the current timeline of the Couch Film is incorrect, and the Darnell Film timeline would also be incorrect.
Having now re-reviewed the testimony, I am pretty impressed with my months-old recollection. I understood where Shelley and Lovelady reentered the TSBD – on the west side – but was conflating Adams’ testimony that she encountered them on her way out to the Houston Street dock. Set forth below are the relevant portions of their testimonies, together with a diagram of the first floor from John Armstrong’s site.
This is a really, really excellent piece called “Inside the Book Depository.” Chapter IX, “The Stairway,” begins at 46:00 and goes completely through the Shelley-Lovelady-Adams-Styles-Garner mystery in very clear detail: https://www.lemmi.no/p/the-kennedy-assassination-inside-the-book-depository.
I had forgotten that Adams herself suggested that her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony. How does that factor into the mysterious “ramifications,” those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought are inclined to wonder?
Anyway, thus endeth my interest in this topic – whatever this topic actually is. Even though I still run half-marathons, my aged heart simply cannot take this level of excitement.
(https://harveyandlee.net/No_Stairs/_2.jpg)
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the
dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there
in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking
lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr.
Truly, and Mr. Shel1ey park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.
…
Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you
go in the ordinary small door?
Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks-that door; we have
a little door.
Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn’t it?
Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY. No ; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL. I am?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side
of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it
from the south side.
Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL. That’s south.
Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this
direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we
get there we raised. There’s a fire door and they have two wooden doors
between it.
Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Miss ADAMS: And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back
of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill
Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you
mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.
…
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock
that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don’t know
how you would describe that.
Mr. BEI.IN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas
School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and
probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
-
Having now spent some more time on the Prayer Man site simply because it becomes almost addictive even for those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought, I will simply say:
1. There is no way the guy labeled in red as “Shelley” is Shelley. Simply no way.
2. I have considerable doubt that the woman identified as Gloria Calvery is in fact Calvery. If she is, something is far off on the supposed timing.
3. Joe Molina testified at the WC that he was on the TSBD steps, saw Truly go in, and went in after Truly. No one came up the steps and said JFK had been shot before he went in. After he was in the lobby, Calvery and another woman came in and said this.
4. Buell Frazier told the WC he stayed on the steps “a few minutes” after Shelley and Lovelady had left, until people started going back in to eat their lunches. The only thing he heard, “right before” he went back in, was “somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.” The girl who said this – who was unknown to him – “didn’t tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.”
5. I’ll leave it there. I still have no idea what this thread is about. There is no way to make this all neat and tidy. Ordinary people were instantly thrust into unimaginable chaos and confusion. CTers always pretend to nail things down to a level of certainty that is impossible and then to assign nefarious motives and purposes to all the dark and sinister “discrepancies” that are actually understandable and to be expected in such circumstances.
-
Having now spent some more time on the Prayer Man site simply because it becomes almost addictive even for those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought, I will simply say:
1. There is no way the guy labeled in red as “Shelley” is Shelley. Simply no way.
2. I have considerable doubt that the woman identified as Gloria Calvery is in fact Calvery. If she is, something is far off on the supposed timing.
3. Joe Molina testified at the WC that he was on the TSBD steps, saw Truly go in, and went in after Truly. No one came up the steps and said JFK had been shot before he went in. After he was in the lobby, Calvery and another woman came in and said this.
4. Buell Frazier told the WC he stayed on the steps “a few minutes” after Shelley and Lovelady had left, until people started going back in to eat their lunches. The only thing he heard, “right before” he went back in, was “somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.” The girl who said this – who was unknown to him – “didn’t tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.”
5. I’ll leave it there. I still have no idea what this thread is about. There is no way to make this all neat and tidy. Ordinary people were instantly thrust into unimaginable chaos and confusion. CTers always pretend to nail things down to a level of certainty that is impossible and then to assign nefarious motives and purposes to all the dark and sinister “discrepancies” that are actually understandable and to be expected in such circumstances.
:D :D :D
The old-timer has spoken!
No evidence required.
No arguments required.
Just the word of a deluded old fool who thinks his opinion is fact.
-
Since Tom is apparently asleep at the wheel on this, I am compelled to point out that "it's" in the thread title is egregiously incorrect. I used to make this mistake all the time, too ... in fourth grade, :D :D :D
(https://www.sarahtownsendeditorial.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Confusables-ITS-vs-ITS.-Simple-spelling-tips-to-remember-the-difference-from-The-Little-Book-of-Confusables-.png)
-
Having now re-reviewed the testimony, I am pretty impressed with my months-old recollection. I understood where Shelley and Lovelady reentered the TSBD – on the west side – but was conflating Adams’ testimony that she encountered them on her way out to the Houston Street dock. Set forth below are the relevant portions of their testimonies, together with a diagram of the first floor from John Armstrong’s site.
This is a really, really excellent piece called “Inside the Book Depository.” Chapter IX, “The Stairway,” begins at 46:00 and goes completely through the Shelley-Lovelady-Adams-Styles-Garner mystery in very clear detail: https://www.lemmi.no/p/the-kennedy-assassination-inside-the-book-depository.
I had forgotten that Adams herself suggested that her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony. How does that factor into the mysterious “ramifications,” those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought are inclined to wonder?
Anyway, thus endeth my interest in this topic – whatever this topic actually is. Even though I still run half-marathons, my aged heart simply cannot take this level of excitement.
(https://harveyandlee.net/No_Stairs/_2.jpg)
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the
dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there
in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking
lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr.
Truly, and Mr. Shel1ey park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.
…
Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you
go in the ordinary small door?
Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks-that door; we have
a little door.
Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn’t it?
Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY. No ; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL. I am?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side
of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it
from the south side.
Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL. That’s south.
Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this
direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we
get there we raised. There’s a fire door and they have two wooden doors
between it.
Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Miss ADAMS: And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back
of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill
Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you
mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.
…
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock
that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don’t know
how you would describe that.
Mr. BEI.IN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas
School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and
probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
The above diagram is a total misrepresentation of the TSBD. To look at that floor plan, you would believe that the TSBD was a Stand-Alone structure. FALSE! In reality, on 11/22/63 to the viewers (L) were: (1) the Huge Gates, (2) A Grocery Warehouse, and (3) A Large Dock facing the railroad yard. And all of these structures were connected. Anyone could walk through one structure into the other. That diagram above was an Intentional Misrepresentation! A Sham!
-
The above diagram is a total misrepresentation of the TSBD. To look at that floor plan, you would believe that the TSBD was a Stand-Alone structure. FALSE! In reality, on 11/22/63 to the viewers (L) were: (1) the Huge Gates, (2) A Grocery Warehouse, and (3) A Large Dock facing the railroad yard. And all of these structures were connected. Anyone could walk through one structure into the other. That diagram above was an Intentional Misrepresentation! A Sham!
Careful there, I believe Dan has copyrighted the term "sham" in reference to the JFKA. :D :D :D Having started out as an architecture major, I can tell you that architectural floor plan drawings simply do not depict surrounding structures.
Is the theory that Oswald actually exited through the Huge Gates, quickly grabbed a cucumber at the Grocery Warehouse, reentered the TSBD via the Houston Street dock, and was in fact observed by Baker, Truly and Mrs. Reid to be holding a cucumber, not a Coke, some 30 minutes after the JFKA? I like it, and I'm pretty sure Dan does, but it's gonna be a tough sell. (Note the correct use of "it's.") :D :D :D
Ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing, you've been a great audience. I open on the October 10th at Shecky's House of Giggles in Paramus, NJ. Lotsa new JFKA gags.
-
There is no way the guy labeled in red as “Shelley” is Shelley. Simply no way.
Correct.
I have considerable doubt that the woman identified as Gloria Calvery is in fact Calvery.
Given the fact that:
1) self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two TSBD workmates, strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons ("all of whom(?)" mistakenly told the FBI that they were standing on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade) were misidentified as "Gloria Calvery," "Karan Hicks," and "Carol Reed" "by" the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder film for several years
2) four headscarf-wearing gals can be seen standing shoulder-to-shoulder on the north side of Elm Street about 10 feet up Elm Street from the Jacob-Holt-Simmons group, and about 100 feet from the TSBD
3) as we can see in her wedding photograph, Calvery was a large-and-tall gal
4) one of the headscarf-wearing gals in the aforementioned group-of-four was not only suspiciously not labeled by Robin Unger or Dan Roberdeau for several years -- if ever), but is noticeably larger and taller than the other three and is wearing a dark-blue blouse, a dark-blue headscarf, and a lighter-colored plaid skirt
5) standing to the immediate right (from Zapruder's point of view) of the large-and-tall gal is a young-looking guy, and next to him is a Fedora-and-suit-wearing man. We know that their names are John Templin and Ernest Brandt, respectively
6) one of the other gals in the group-of-four is tallish and slender and is wearing a white dress and a white headscarf
7) in all of the verified photos of Calvery that we have seen, she is wearing the same black-framed glasses
8 ) in Betzner-3 (and from Betzner's point of view), we can see a gal in the background who is standing to the right of a shorter guy (who must be John Templin) and we can see that this gal is either wearing a dark-colored headscarf or has dark-colored hair, and that she appears to be wearing glasses (John Iacoletti labeled her "Glasses Woman" until he realized Calvery always wore glasses) .
9) standing about three feet to the right of this dark-clad, glasses-wearing gal (from Betzner's point of view) is a gal who appears to be wearing a white dress and a white headscarf
10) in all of the known photos and films that were taken in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 (except for the Darnell clip; see below), this dressed-all-in-white gal on the north side of Elm Street is the only one who is dressed all-in-white
11) in the Darnell clip, a dark-blouse-wearing, dark-headscarf-wearing, plaid-skirt-wearing gal can be seen standing on (or going up) the lower section of the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the Z-313 shot (according to the Mark Tyler synchronized animation, etc.)
12) to the immediate right of this gal, a dressed-all-in-white gal can be seen passing this gal, and maybe even trying to pull her up the steps,
I think it's reasonable to assume that the dark-blouse-wearing / dark-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing gal on the TSBD steps in the Darnell clip is Gloria Calvery, and that the dressed-all-in-white gal is her South-West Publishing Company colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed (and if it's the former, then the latter was "Running Woman" and vice versa.
If she is, something is far off on the supposed timing.
Considering the various witness that were all over the place, that's not surprising.
Joe Molina testified at the WC that he was on the TSBD steps, saw Truly go in, and went in after Truly. No one came up the steps and said JFK had been shot before he went in. After he was in the lobby, Calvery and another woman came in and said this.
Okay.
Buell Frazier told the WC he stayed on the steps “a few minutes” after Shelley and Lovelady had left, until people started going back in to eat their lunches. The only thing he heard, “right before” he went back in, was “somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.” The girl who said this – who was unknown to him – “didn’t tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.”
Okay.
I’ll leave it there. I still have no idea what this thread is about. There is no way to make this all neat and tidy. Ordinary people were instantly thrust into unimaginable chaos and confusion. CTers always pretend to nail things down to a level of certainty that is impossible and then to assign nefarious motives and purposes to all the dark and sinister “discrepancies” that are actually understandable and to be expected in such circumstances.
Okay.
Thanks for weighing in.
-
Careful there, I believe Dan has copyrighted the term "sham" in reference to the JFKA. :D :D :D Having started out as an architecture major, I can tell you that architectural floor plan drawings simply do not depict surrounding structures.
Is the theory that Oswald actually exited through the Huge Gates, quickly grabbed a cucumber at the Grocery Warehouse, reentered the TSBD via the Houston Street dock, and was in fact observed by Baker, Truly and Mrs. Reid to be holding a cucumber, not a Coke, some 30 minutes after the JFKA? I like it, and I'm pretty sure Dan does, but it's gonna be a tough sell. (Note the correct use of "it's.") :D :D :D
Ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing, you've been a great audience. I open on the October 10th at Shecky's House of Giggles in Paramus, NJ. Lotsa new JFKA gags.
You're referencing an "architectural floor plan". What we are specifically looking at is, "Commission Exhibit No. 1061" of the Warren Report. This level of intentional misrepresentation is right in line with Rep Ford moving the written description of the JFK Back Wound to the Base of JFK's Neck. And when you consider that the Huge Gates, the Grocery Warehouse, and the Dock facing the railroad yard have ALL been torn down and replaced with a parking lot, that stand alone representation of the TSBD in, "Commission Exhibit No. 1061", fits what we see today like a hand-in-glove.
-
Having now re-reviewed the testimony, I am pretty impressed with my months-old recollection. I understood where Shelley and Lovelady reentered the TSBD – on the west side – but was conflating Adams’ testimony that she encountered them on her way out to the Houston Street dock. Set forth below are the relevant portions of their testimonies, together with a diagram of the first floor from John Armstrong’s site.
This is a really, really excellent piece called “Inside the Book Depository.” Chapter IX, “The Stairway,” begins at 46:00 and goes completely through the Shelley-Lovelady-Adams-Styles-Garner mystery in very clear detail: https://www.lemmi.no/p/the-kennedy-assassination-inside-the-book-depository.
I had forgotten that Adams herself suggested that her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony. How does that factor into the mysterious “ramifications,” those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought are inclined to wonder?
Anyway, thus endeth my interest in this topic – whatever this topic actually is. Even though I still run half-marathons, my aged heart simply cannot take this level of excitement.
(https://harveyandlee.net/No_Stairs/_2.jpg)
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the
dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there
in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking
lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr.
Truly, and Mr. Shel1ey park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.
…
Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you
go in the ordinary small door?
Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks-that door; we have
a little door.
Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn’t it?
Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY. No ; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL. I am?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side
of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it
from the south side.
Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL. That’s south.
Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this
direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we
get there we raised. There’s a fire door and they have two wooden doors
between it.
Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Miss ADAMS: And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back
of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill
Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you
mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.
…
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock
that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don’t know
how you would describe that.
Mr. BEI.IN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas
School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and
probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Earlier in this thread the old-timer was asked to give a very simple timeline outlining how Shelley and Lovelady could be walking along the Elm St Ext a mere 25 seconds after the shooting.
In these few seconds, according to his shaky grasp of the evidence, Gloria had to get back to the front steps from her position on Elm Street, tell Lovelady about the shooting, Shelley and Lovelady then make their way across the extension to the "little, old island", before making their way along the Elm Street extension to the railroad yard. All that in around 25 seconds.
Rather than acknowledge that this makes a mockery out of his "conclusive" and "definitive" identification of Lovelady in the Darnell/Couch footage, we get this devious manipulation of the testimonial evidence instead.
The old man cherry picks certain passages from their WC testimonies to create a false narrative in which he omits that BOTH men specifically stated they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived at the steps and that they spent a minute or so on the island before heading along the Elm St Ext.
Even if it was just a case of Gloria getting to the steps, telling her story, both men going to the island and then heading along the extension where they are filmed by Darnell and Couch...even if it was just these things done as quickly as humanly possible, it is still doubtful the men would be filmed on the extension within 25 seconds.
It simply cannot be done and the old-timer was right to dodge attempting to take on this timeline because his delusional approach to the evidence would have been exposed.
-
Earlier in this thread the old-timer was asked to give a very simple timeline outlining how Shelley and Lovelady could be walking along the Elm St Ext a mere 25 seconds after the shooting.
In these few seconds, according to his shaky grasp of the evidence, Gloria had to get back to the front steps from her position on Elm Street, tell Lovelady about the shooting, Shelley and Lovelady then make their way across the extension to the "little, old island", before making their way along the Elm Street extension to the railroad yard. All that in around 25 seconds.
Rather than acknowledge that this makes a mockery out of his "conclusive" and "definitive" identification of Lovelady in the Darnell/Couch footage, we get this devious manipulation of the testimonial evidence instead.
The old man cherry picks certain passages from their WC testimonies to create a false narrative in which he omits that BOTH men specifically stated they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived at the steps and that they spent a minute or so on the island before heading along the Elm St Ext.
Even if it was just a case of Gloria getting to the steps, telling her story, both men going to the island and then heading along the extension where they are filmed by Darnell and Couch...even if it was just these things done as quickly as humanly possible, it is still doubtful the men would be filmed on the extension within 25 seconds.
It simply cannot be done and the old-timer was right to dodge attempting to take on this timeline because his delusional approach to the evidence would have been exposed.
The Lovelady WC testimony/timeline is difficult to accept simply because Lovelady says so. Lovelady says he and Shelley went down the Elm St Ext 3+ minutes after the Kill Shot vs the Couch Film still frames showing 2 guys looking like Lovelady and Shelley heading down the Elm St Ext roughly 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. Then, Lovelady gives WC Testimony that after entering the TSBD he stayed inside there for approximately 30 minutes vs there being images of Lovelady standing on the (R) side of the TSBD Front Steps. In my opinion, Lovelady's testimony regarding his own timeline is so far off that it impacts the credibility of everything he testified to.
-
The Lovelady WC testimony/timeline is difficult to accept simply because Lovelady says so. Lovelady says he and Shelley went down the Elm Street Extension 3+ minutes after the kill shot vs the Couch film still frames showing two guys looking like Lovelady and Shelley heading down the Elm Street Extension roughly 30 seconds after the kill shot. Then, Lovelady gives WC Testimony that after entering the TSBD he stayed inside for approximately 30 minutes vs there being images of him standing on the (R) side of the TSBD front steps. In my opinion, Lovelady's testimony regarding his own timeline is so far off that it impacts the credibility of everything he testified to.
Well put.
-
If those 2 guys in the Darnell film moving away at approx 30 sec post shots , then they have to start heading back to west side of TSBD pretty soon after that to make it to the west door of TSBD and get to the rear elevators by 60 sec post shots.
The distance approx from where they are in the film to the west side door of TSBD is about 200 ft so that’s a pace of about 6-7ft/sec which imo is equivalent to a “brisk” walk. So it’s possible that Lovelady and Shelly could have turned around after seeing the White Helmut Running Cop, and decided they should return to the rear side of TSBD asap.
The only reason I can think of for them to do an about face so quickly is that maybe they thought that because White Helmut Cop (with gun in hand) racing to get into TSBD , was indicative that the shooter was possibly in the TSBD.
So Lovelady and Shelley thought they should assist in this effort and that they might prevent the shooter from escaping out the back of TSBD
-
The Lovelady WC testimony/timeline is difficult to accept simply because Lovelady says so. Lovelady says he and Shelley went down the Elm St Ext 3+ minutes after the Kill Shot vs the Couch Film still frames showing 2 guys looking like Lovelady and Shelley heading down the Elm St Ext roughly 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. Then, Lovelady gives WC Testimony that after entering the TSBD he stayed inside there for approximately 30 minutes vs there being images of Lovelady standing on the (R) side of the TSBD Front Steps. In my opinion, Lovelady's testimony regarding his own timeline is so far off that it impacts the credibility of everything he testified to.
Agreed.
The only statements made by Shelley and Lovelady that I give any credence to are the very first statements they gave about their movements after the assassination.
IMO, the affidavits both men gave to the DPD a couple of hours after the assassination are the only reliable account of what they did in the aftermath of the shooting.
Both men were stood on the steps when the shots were fired, Shelley ran across the street and met Gloria coming the other way and then returned to the building. Lovelady never moved from the steps and simply re-entered the building. No walk along the extension, no visit to where the limo stopped or the railroad yard or anywhere else and no re-entering the building through the west door.
All of the movements and timings they gave, in all their statements after their affidavits, were lies.
What they actually did was to re-enter the building through the front door seconds after the shooting, make their way to the back of the first floor, towards the elevators, where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced towards the loading dock door, which would make them the two white men Baker reported seeing as he waited with Truly for the elevator that never came.
-
The only statements made by Shelley and Lovelady that I give any credence to are the very first statements they gave about their movements after the assassination.
IMO, the affidavits both men gave to the DPD a couple of hours after the assassination are the only reliable account of what they did in the aftermath of the shooting.
Both men were stood on the steps when the shots were fired, Shelley ran across the street and met Gloria coming the other way and then returned to the building. Lovelady never moved from the steps and simply re-entered the building. No walk along the extension, no visit to where the limo stopped or the railroad yard or anywhere else and no re-entering the building through the west door.
All of the movements and timings they gave, in all their statements after their affidavits, were lies.
What they actually did was to re-enter the building through the front door seconds after the shooting, make their way to the back of the first floor, towards the elevators, where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced towards the loading dock door, which would make them the two white men Baker reported seeing as he waited with Truly for the elevator that never came.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
1) Why did they lie?
Because if they'd told the Warren Commission "the truth," their being spotted near the elevators by Adams and Baker so soon after the final shot, when taken in conjunction with the fact that Adams and Styles didn't see or hear Oswald on the stairs, would "prove" that Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor during the shooting?
Shelley said he entered the building and called his wife.
Would Baker, back near the elevators, have been able to see him doing that from there?
Would he have been the guy who was sitting, or the guy who was standing?
2) Did the limo stop?
-- Tom
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
1) Why did they lie?
Because if they'd told the Warren Commission "the truth," their being spotted near the elevators by Adams and Baker so soon after the final shot, when taken in conjunction with the fact that Adams and Styles didn't see or hear Oswald on the stairs, would "prove" that Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor during the shooting?
Shelley said he entered the building and called his wife.
Would Baker, back near the elevators, have been able to see him doing that from there?
Would he have been the guy who was sitting, or the guy who was standing?
2) Did the limo stop?
-- Tom
1) Why did they lie?
As I've posted over and over and over again - they lied to cover up their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
2) Did the limo stop?
No.
What evidence do you have for your erroneous belief that Lovelady met Gloria on the little, old island?
-
Shelley and Lovelady lied to cover up their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
Fine.
Why did they need to cover up their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
What evidence do you have for your belief that Lovelady met Gloria on the island?
The fact that Buell Wesley Frazier said he believed that right after the shots, "Billy [Lovelady] and them walked down in the direction of the triple underpass," (i.e., towards the "island") before a girl (Calvery?) came up to the steps and started bellowing to the people there that JFK had been shot, and the fact that Shelley and Lovelady can be seen walking/running towards the railway yard/parking lot about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell.
If Lovelady didn't join "best man" Shelley in his interception of recent-bride Calvery on the "island," but stayed on the steps, instead, Shelley may have signaled to him to go with him to the railway yard/parking lot.
D'oh
What evidence do you have that the person in the Darnell clip who is standing on (or going up) the steps immediately in front of Gloria Calvery is Lovelady, and what evidence do you have that the pivoting guy with the receding hairline in front of the steps in Darnell is slender and "pompadour"-hair-styled William Shelley?
-- Tom
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Agreed.
The only statements made by Shelley and Lovelady that I give any credence to are the very first statements they gave about their movements after the assassination.
IMO, the affidavits both men gave to the DPD a couple of hours after the assassination are the only reliable account of what they did in the aftermath of the shooting.
Both men were stood on the steps when the shots were fired, Shelley ran across the street and met Gloria coming the other way and then returned to the building. Lovelady never moved from the steps and simply re-entered the building. No walk along the extension, no visit to where the limo stopped or the railroad yard or anywhere else and no re-entering the building through the west door.
All of the movements and timings they gave, in all their statements after their affidavits, were lies.
What they actually did was to re-enter the building through the front door seconds after the shooting, make their way to the back of the first floor, towards the elevators, where they were seen by Vicki Adams as she raced towards the loading dock door, which would make them the two white men Baker reported seeing as he waited with Truly for the elevator that never came.
What timelines are you assigning: (1) Officer Baker/Roy Truly arriving at the TSBD 1st floor stairwell, (2) Lovelady/Shelley arriving at the TSBD 1st Floor stairwell, and (3) Adams/Styles arriving at the TSBD 1st Floor?
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What timelines are you assigning: (1) Officer Baker/Roy Truly arriving at the TSBD 1st floor stairwell, (2) Lovelady/Shelley arriving at the TSBD 1st Floor stairwell, and (3) Adams/Styles arriving at the TSBD 1st Floor?
Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady are in the area near the first floor elevators 50 to 70 seconds after the shooting.
Truly and Baker arrive on the scene 10 to 20 seconds later.
Obviously, these are guesstimates but it's somewhere in this ballpark IMO
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Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady are in the area near the first floor elevators 50 to 70 seconds after the shooting.
Truly and Baker arrive on the scene 10 to 20 seconds later.
Obviously, these are guesstimates but it's somewhere in this ballpark IMO
Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady are in the area near the first floor elevators 50 to 70 seconds after the shooting
No, they weren't. Not even close.
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Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady are in the area near the first floor elevators 50 to 70 seconds after the shooting
No, they weren't. Not even close.
:D :D :D
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:D :D :D
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Have you figured out how Bart Kamp faked the bald spot on "Lovelady's" head and the stripes in his shirt in the Couch clip, yet?
Please let us know when you have!
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Have you figured out how Bart Kamp faked the bald spot on "Lovelady's" head and the stripes in his shirt in the Couch clip, yet?
Please let us know when you have!
-- Tom
:D :D :D
-
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Who is the man on the steps, Tommy?
Who do you think the man is that Gloria is facing?
;)
Is that a checkered pattern on his shirt? ;D
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(https://i.postimg.cc/pTGxHVvG/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Who is the man on the steps, Tommy?
Who do you think the man is that Gloria is facing?
Is that a checkered pattern on his shirt?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
How much did you have to pay Bart Kamp to have him put those stripes in his shirt?
Regardless, you forgot to have him give "Shelly" a full head of hair.
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
How much did you have to pay Bart Kamp to have him put those stripes in his shirt?
Regardless, you forgot to have him give "Shelly" a full head of hair.
-- Tom
You're avoiding the question, Tommy.
Who do you think the man is, facing Gloria?
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You're avoiding the question, Tommy.
Who do you think the man is facing Gloria?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
I have no idea.
By the same token, who do you think is wearing Lovelady's shirt and walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch, and who is that pivoting, suit-wearing guy with the receding hairline is in front of the steps in Darnell?
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
I have no idea.
By the same token, who do you think is wearing Lovelady's shirt and walking / running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard about 25 seconds after the final shot, and who is that pivoting, suit-wearing guy with the receding hairline is in front of the steps in Darnell?
-- Tom
I have no idea.
Not good enough Tommy.
You and Sandy were pivotal in the identification of Glorai on the steps in this picture.
You must have discussed this image, or one like it, in immense detail.
You tried Joe Molina at one point, so you had an opinion then (one you have correctly abandoned)
It's not good enough to say you have no idea and you know that.
The man in question must have been considered pivotal as far as your identification of Gloria was concerned, so you must give some kind of answer.
You are undermining your own contribution to this case by bailing out on this issue.
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I have no idea.
Not good enough Tommy.
You and Sandy were pivotal in the identification of Glorai on the steps in this picture.
You must have discussed this image, or one like it, in immense detail.
You tried Joe Molina at one point, so you had an opinion then (one you have correctly abandoned)
It's not good enough to say you have no idea and you know that.
The man in question must have been considered pivotal as far as your identification of Gloria was concerned, so you must give some kind of answer.
You are undermining your own contribution to this case by bailing out on this issue.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
It's interesting that you can't explain why the Lovelady figure walking / running down Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell is wearing Lovelady's shirt and has Lovelady's bald spot.
It must be very disconcerting for you.
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
It's interesting that you can't explain why the Lovelady figure walking / running down Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell is wearing Lovelady's shirt and has Lovelady's bald spot.
It must be very disconcerting for you.
-- Tom
Come on, Tommy.
Who is the man on the steps?
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QzxBwPJ/Darnellstepsnamed.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
White men on the steps:
Buell Frazier - no, we can see him at the top of the steps
Bill Shelley - no, Shelley had on a black jacket and a quiff
Joe Molina - no, was wearing a white shirt and reported interacting with Gloria in the lobby
Otis Williams - no, was wearing a white shirt
This leaves Billy Lovelady.
It can only be Billy Lovelady.
What possible alternative is there?
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I have no idea.
Not good enough Tommy.
You and Sandy were pivotal in the identification of Glorai on the steps in this picture.
You must have discussed this image, or one like it, in immense detail.
You tried Joe Molina at one point, so you had an opinion then (one you have correctly abandoned)
It's not good enough to say you have no idea and you know that.
The man in question must have been considered pivotal as far as your identification of Gloria was concerned, so you must give some kind of answer.
You are undermining your own contribution to this case by bailing out on this issue.
Do you have a timestamp for the image showing Lovelady on the (R) side of the TSBD Front Steps? Law Enforcement is in the background controlling the TSBD front door. This needs to be factored into the timeline of that Lovelady image.
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Do you have a timestamp for the image showing Lovelady on the (R) side of the TSBD Front Steps? Law Enforcement is in the background controlling the TSBD front door. This needs to be factored into the timeline of this Lovelady image.
What about the Darnell/Couch footage makes you believe there is "Law Enforcement...controlling the TSBD front door"?
Remember, this isn't a single photograph, this is a still taken from film footage that has an overwhelming amount of information in it proving it is taken within seconds of the assassination.
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What about the Darnell/Couch footage makes you believe there is "Law Enforcement...controlling the TSBD front door"?
Remember, this isn't a single photograph, this is a still taken from film footage that has an overwhelming amount of information in it proving it is taken within seconds of the assassination.
Darnell/Couch does Not show Lovelady standing on the viewers (R) side of the TSBD Steps. This is a different image. I believe it is a photo. I don't know for sure. With Lovelady allegedly being inside the TSBD for roughly 30 minutes, figuring out when this image was taken is important in the Lovelady timeline. Law Enforcement is visible manning the TSBD front door.
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Darnell/Couch does Not show Lovelady standing on the viewers (R) side of the TSBD Steps. This is a different image. I believe it is a photo. I don't know for sure. With Lovelady allegedly being inside the TSBD for roughly 30 minutes, figuring out when this image was taken is important in the Lovelady timeline. Law Enforcement is visible manning the TSBD front door.
I'm sorry Royell, this is 100% a crop from a still taken from Darnell's footage.
I don't know what else to say.
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Come on, Tommy.
Who is the man on the steps?
It's whomever you want it to be, danny BOY.
-- Tom
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It's whoever you want it to be, danny BOY.
-- Tom
Come on, Tommy.
There are so many people reading this interaction.
They are seeing your avoidance of such a fundamental identification.
I've presented the argument for why it can only be Lovelady and you have presented nothing but avoidance.
I know you don't care how that looks but I wish you could see it's damaging your credibility and undermining the work you did identifying Gloria in the first place.
Who is the man on the steps that Gloria is interacting with the moment she arrives at the steps?
I know that you know there's only one realistic possibility.
I know that's why you're avoiding answering my question.
Do you think you're somehow hidden by being evasive?
It's quite the opposite.
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Darnell/Couch does Not show Lovelady standing on the viewers (R) side of the TSBD Steps. This is a different image. I believe it is a photo. I don't know for sure. With Lovelady allegedly being inside the TSBD for roughly 30 minutes, figuring out when this image was taken is important in the Lovelady timeline. Law Enforcement is visible manning the TSBD front door.
Storing,
Are you referring to the clips filmed by John Martin and Robert Hughes which show Lovelady smoking on the steps about 30 minutes after the last shot, and the film (by Tom Alyea?) showing him sitting in the Homicide and Burglary office as he's watching them bring Oswald in?
-- Tom
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Storing,
Are you referring to the clips filmed by John Martin and Robert Hughes which show Lovelady smoking on the steps about 30 minutes after the last shot, and the film (by Tom Alyea?) showing him sitting in the Homicide and Burglary office as he's watching them bring Oswald in?
-- Tom
Royell - serious question - can you actually see the images I'm posting?
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Royell - serious question - can you actually see the images I'm posting?
Yes, I can see the images you are posting. Those images are Couch/Darnell. They do not show Lovelady standing on the side of the TSBD steps that are below the sniper's window.
-
Storing,
Are you referring to the clips filmed by John Martin and Robert Hughes which show Lovelady smoking on the steps about 30 minutes after the last shot, and the film (by Tom Alyea?) showing him sitting in the Homicide and Burglary office as he's watching them bring Oswald in?
-- Tom
I just checked and these Color film images showing Lovelady are Not from the Martin Film. This footage is shot from further away from the TSBD. There are no regular citizens standing on the TSBD Landing. Just law enforcement up there. The Martin Film has regular people standing up there with Lovelady standing below them. This is not Martin Film footage.
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I just checked and these Color film images showing Lovelady are not from the Martin Film. This footage is shot from further away from the TSBD. There are no regular citizens standing on the TSBD Landing. Just law enforcement up there. The Martin Film has regular people standing up there with Lovelady standing below them. This is not Martin Film footage.
Where can I see the image or images you're referring to?
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Yes, I can see the images you are posting. Those images are Couch/Darnell. They do not show Lovelady standing on the side of the TSBD steps that are below the sniper's window.
This is a still from the Darnell footage taken around 25 - 30 seconds after the head shot.
What is your guess at the man I have identified as Lovelady.
Tom has bailed out on this identification because he knows it can only be Lovelady but has put all his eggs into the Kamp basket.
In this image we see Baker just about to reach the area near the bottom of the front steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QzxBwPJ/Darnellstepsnamed.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
As for the colour image you are referring to, is it something like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4N3BMGZ4/Hughestasbdsteps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Where can I see the image or images you're referring to?
Those Color Film images of Lovelady on the (R) of the TSBD front steps are on "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" DVD. It is also posted on YOU TUBE as, " Unsolved History: Death in Dealey Plaza Discovery Channel 2/26/2003" by Vince Palamara. Go To - 5:50 - 5:56. The balding guy on the lower (R) side of the steps is Lovelady. Gary Mack hosts this presentation and I think he provided most of these images from the Sixth Floor Museum, so they are very detailed. On the DVD the images are much sharper than this YOU TUBE posting. On the DVD you can see the brownish/red color of Lovelady's shirt. There's no question we are seeing Lovelady here. I highly recommend viewing this entire DVD. There's a ton of JFK Assassination images on it. So many are flying by that sometimes you need to frame-by-frame them. Again, do you know how long after the Kill Shot that these images of Lovelady on the (R) side of the TSBD Steps were filmed?
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Those Color Film images of Lovelady on the (R) of the TSBD front steps are on "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" DVD. It is also posted on YOU TUBE as, " Unsolved History: Death in Dealey Plaza Discovery Channel 2/26/2003" by Vince Palamara. Go To - 5:50 - 5:56. The balding guy on the lower (R) side of the steps is Lovelady. Gary Mack hosts this presentation and I think he provided most of these images from the Sixth Floor Museum, so they are very detailed. On the DVD the images are much sharper than this YOU TUBE posting. On the DVD you can see the brownish/red color of Lovelady's shirt. There's no question we are seeing Lovelady here. I highly recommend viewing this entire DVD. There's a ton of JFK Assassination images on it. So many are flying by that sometimes you need to frame-by-frame them. Again, do you know how long after the Kill Shot that these images of Lovelady on the (R) side of the TSBD Steps were filmed?
It's the Hughes film.
The image I posted in my last Reply is from that.
I believe part of it shows either Hank Norman or Junior Jarman being ushered back into the building. After coming down from the 5th floor, they ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside. It must be about 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination.
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After coming down from the 5th floor, Hank Norman and/or Junior Jarman ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside.
FWIW, that's Bonnie Ray Williams on a lower step, wearing what looks to be a dark-brown shirt and tan pants.
He, Danny Arce, and Shelley were taken to the DPD Station around 1:30 to make affidavits.
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FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.
Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).
Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.
In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).
I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).
I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.
(https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/whole_scene_cut.jpg?w=768&h=911)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdZFO7QIlvo0JUEEcNRVSggN2Wtz59PmbRUN5AZqLmfEnNM8F55UZ9yZZUX7Z81IU3zVpWIT3tAmt528kHw7nx219nEJn2FW4IKWXlsdfzqKIGlV-aP_FHbqLvYP_UW2zvg8o03EYoCjG1DMXK9KPEOWg4ZQWgNVoIhYKtpLgm05qqveZ7xaqa8ObBGrIueisUESnzrhLLFYvow=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdYdwjk1-XTNpMBTGijFLa3lZna_N4Iqx9GY6O8xC4PI86maw6Lqi_x5fntBb4o8lS6QOy5jKARxgFqIju5by26pG-L4HAiD4SOFAdCUW1UIiyAMNzg4KswgYYb33CkjE0c1NdCH_3yJ0xPNL45MWG6i1ew7LnNMmMU3F8pn60pRFmozoa9lpbFvW-vwVYEf3H6cL1RfOj_R=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdYlqU0Z8s7L2at3k54y_fAgm76DDd7zGYH5pTL8ggH1qA2EA1Ace8sUNYrZzWpn4EifHFKYVareSOJINxx6FrE1sN4OxHtV2AW-8yYTfpBEiRJKrnQeBczHgCCKSfkcfxr7fZxnerwk7AFffHPjZk6yYoDk4Mtce5bCButApi-Pj9isWs2Rn4_Tn1MkheLccdspNGTwHtLjz_oJMKNbdNjIC2sUWsAC7QLo=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdZU9Sys-pCYyD64E1pSfAkDcO1dH5Q4mUq7w-xYshzkK0FZPfTNs2Jz0_-aDJvLvN0467DzKAe4MV0qfg9eKhHLQFzk2aVXGsCuQAubgzz-xN3Xiw-Ed1msTpS602XIBJWKQQ9JV5HCvmYIznEjj4oMuwdVJZcdp_H2sHSV_W-J_GXNTGzl1jb8SNiWQOADl3UVLrPEwIgdIBI=w1280)
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Looks like all my images from Pat Speer's site disappeared? Well, anyway, the link for his Chapter 4 and the images found there gave me my clearest understanding of exactly where Shelley and Lovelady returned to the TSBD, which seems to be a point of confusion. Oops, now they're back! They weren't there this morning when I wrote this post.
You can also see a clear photo and a diagram here: https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/leaving-the-texas-school-book-depository.pdf, where Armstrong has LEE leaving out of the door that Shelley and Lovelady entered! :D HARVEY, of course, departed on the north side.
Actually, that's not where I pictured the supposed Nash Rambler either. Wouldn't "parked right outside the little door" have made more sense? Probably daredevil LEE said, "No way, I want this as risky as possible so I have something to tell FAKE MARINA and FAKE JUNE about when I get back to the FAKE HOME." Or something like that.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQ0tjB3s2hZPgy7PdZsCbRV4dp_zCuGdv0Iw&s)
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For those not inclined to wade through Pat Speer's musings, he basically has Shelley and Lovelady leaving the steps almost immediately, spending far less time down by the tracks than they estimated, and being back in the TSBD far quicker than is generally supposed. It seems to me that something like this almost surely has to be correct. In a situation such as they were in, I just don't think we can hold people to their time estimates as though they were precise. We have both the time dilation factor, which is very real, as well as the fact that people say things like "I'll just be a minute" when they really mean ten seconds.
I have no dog in the fight, but "people being off in their time estimates" sounds to me far more plausible than all sorts of fakery, witness intimidation and lying.
This from Pat Speer will give you the idea:
But this, too, was a problem. And a pretty big one at that. While Shelley and Lovelady were purported to have told the FBI they spent 5-10 minutes in the train yards before re-entering the building, those claims were made in unsigned statements. So how did they testify? Well, when asked how long they spent by the railroad tracks, Shelley said he "wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half" and Lovelady said "just a minute, maybe minute and a half."
Now, wait a second. It would have taken Shelley and Lovelady but 15 seconds or so to reach the train yards, and another 15 seconds or so to re-enter the building via the side door. And they had already left the steps when Baker and Truly ran up to the steps. So let's cut 5 seconds off that 30.
So...by their own approximation, Shelley and Lovelady were back inside the building within 85-115 seconds of Baker and Truly's entering the building (as opposed to the "several minutes" claimed in the report).
Well, this nearly overlaps with the re-enactment performed by Baker on 3-20-64, which Baker thought was a bit faster than it had been in reality.
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It's the Hughes film.
The image I posted in my last Reply is from that.
I believe part of it shows either Hank Norman or Junior Jarman being ushered back into the building. After coming down from the 5th floor, they ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside. It must be about 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination.
Thanks for the "Hughes Film" ID of that color film snippet. I'll look it up on my "Pictures Of The Pain" book later today. The internet went down for almost 24 hrs here and just came back up. I will be playing "catch up" until this afternoon. I am going to have to verify the 10-15 minutes after the kill shot estimate for that Hughes color snippet. Lovelady said that he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes after going down the Elm St Ext with Shelley and then entering the TSBD. How could Lovelady be outside the TSBD only 10-15 minutes after the kill shot, (as seen on that Hughes footage), if he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes following the Kill Shot? That snippet has always puzzled me with respect to how it does not seem to fit into the Lovelady WC Testimony/timeline.
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FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.
Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).
Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.
In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).
I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).
I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.
(https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/whole_scene_cut.jpg?w=768&h=911)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdZFO7QIlvo0JUEEcNRVSggN2Wtz59PmbRUN5AZqLmfEnNM8F55UZ9yZZUX7Z81IU3zVpWIT3tAmt528kHw7nx219nEJn2FW4IKWXlsdfzqKIGlV-aP_FHbqLvYP_UW2zvg8o03EYoCjG1DMXK9KPEOWg4ZQWgNVoIhYKtpLgm05qqveZ7xaqa8ObBGrIueisUESnzrhLLFYvow=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdYdwjk1-XTNpMBTGijFLa3lZna_N4Iqx9GY6O8xC4PI86maw6Lqi_x5fntBb4o8lS6QOy5jKARxgFqIju5by26pG-L4HAiD4SOFAdCUW1UIiyAMNzg4KswgYYb33CkjE0c1NdCH_3yJ0xPNL45MWG6i1ew7LnNMmMU3F8pn60pRFmozoa9lpbFvW-vwVYEf3H6cL1RfOj_R=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdYlqU0Z8s7L2at3k54y_fAgm76DDd7zGYH5pTL8ggH1qA2EA1Ace8sUNYrZzWpn4EifHFKYVareSOJINxx6FrE1sN4OxHtV2AW-8yYTfpBEiRJKrnQeBczHgCCKSfkcfxr7fZxnerwk7AFffHPjZk6yYoDk4Mtce5bCButApi-Pj9isWs2Rn4_Tn1MkheLccdspNGTwHtLjz_oJMKNbdNjIC2sUWsAC7QLo=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdZU9Sys-pCYyD64E1pSfAkDcO1dH5Q4mUq7w-xYshzkK0FZPfTNs2Jz0_-aDJvLvN0467DzKAe4MV0qfg9eKhHLQFzk2aVXGsCuQAubgzz-xN3Xiw-Ed1msTpS602XIBJWKQQ9JV5HCvmYIznEjj4oMuwdVJZcdp_H2sHSV_W-J_GXNTGzl1jb8SNiWQOADl3UVLrPEwIgdIBI=w1280)
I have never experienced this "time dilation" stuff. It sounds like something out of a dream sequence from "Gilligan's Island". This is the kinda plot "contrivance" that is used to fill gaps inna "story".
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I have never experienced this "time dilation" stuff. It sounds like something out of a dream sequence from "Gilligan's Island". This is the kinda plot "contrivance" that is used to fill gaps inna "story".
It's very common and well-documented. Pat Speer links to a scientific piece on it. I've experienced it at least twice, once in a motorcycle accident and once in a car accident. Time slows down, sometimes to an astounding extent. The point is nothing more than that time estimates by participants in an extreme event such as the JFKA can be very unreliable.
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This is just an attempt at clarification. I realize that Tom’s (and the late Sandy Larsen’s) identification of Tartan Skirted Woman as Gloria Calvery is extremely important to him for some reason. What I don’t quite understand is why. (Assuming we can trust Gloria’s grave marker, her name was Calvery and not Calvary as it is often misspelled.)
To be clear, I’m not insisting Tartan Skirted Woman isn’t Calvery. I’m just puzzled.
Back in the day, a well-respected researcher named Linda Giovanna Zambanini debated the identification of Calvery with Tom and Sandy, and serious researchers such as Robin Unger, Bart Kamp and others were aligned with Linda in believing that Chubby Crying Woman in the image below was in fact Calvery. It seemed to me that Linda and her supporters made a good case, using old photos, that Chubby Crying Woman looks a lot more like Calvery than Holt (as Tom claims). There was certainly some facial similarity between Calvery and Holt.
Now, however, I see that Linda has “tentatively” joined the Tartan Skirted Woman brigade at the Calvery memorial site. She has an arrow pointing to Tartan Skirted Woman but with a question mark: “Gloria Calvery?”
We will concede that it is Tartan Skirted Woman going up the steps with All White Woman, but my question is, “Why must this be Calvery? What’s the great significance?”
For Tartan Skirted Woman to be Calvery, the following would have to be true:
1. Westbrook’s recollection in 2016 as to where she was standing would have to be dead wrong.
2. Westbrook’s identification of Calvery in the photos would have to be dead wrong, even though “her” Calvery is dressed completely differently from Tartan Skirted Woman.
3. Westbrook’s identification of herself would have to be dead wrong. According to Tom, the woman Westbrook thinks is herself, from both the front and back in photos, is actually Simmons-Nelson. One of the women standing with Tartan Skirted Woman is presumably Tom’s Westbrook, but she didn’t recognize herself in 2016?
Westbrook’s recollection was so strong that she confidently disagreed with the supposed identification of Calvery by the latter’s own son.
Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.
Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event.
What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal?
Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.”
Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is.
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/DARNELL80a.jpg.7404efa09d28549ec8fa02232e60e064.jpg)
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This is just an attempt at clarification. I realize that Tom’s (and the late Sandy Larsen’s) identification of Tartan Skirted Woman as Gloria Calvery is extremely important to him for some reason. What I don’t quite understand is why. (Assuming we can trust Gloria’s grave marker, her name was Calvery and not Calvary as it is often misspelled.)
To be clear, I’m not insisting Tartan Skirted Woman isn’t Calvery. I’m just puzzled.
Back in the day, a well-respected researcher named Linda Giovanna Zambanini debated the identification of Calvery with Tom and Sandy, and serious researchers such as Robin Unger, Bart Kamp and others were aligned with Linda in believing that Chubby Crying Woman in the image below was in fact Calvery. It seemed to me that Linda and her supporters made a good case, using old photos, that Chubby Crying Woman looks a lot more like Calvery than Holt (as Tom claims). There was certainly some facial similarity between Calvery and Holt.
Now, however, I see that Linda has “tentatively” joined the Tartan Skirted Woman brigade at the Calvery memorial site. She has an arrow pointing to Tartan Skirted Woman but with a question mark: “Gloria Calvery?”
We will concede that it is Tartan Skirted Woman going up the steps with All White Woman, but my question is, “Why must this be Calvery? What’s the great significance?”
For Tartan Skirted Woman to be Calvery, the following would have to be true:
1. Westbrook’s recollection in 2016 as to where she was standing would have to be dead wrong.
2. Westbrook’s identification of Calvery in the photos would have to be dead wrong, even though “her” Calvery is dressed completely differently from Tartan Skirted Woman.
3. Westbrook’s identification of herself would have to be dead wrong. According to Tom, the woman Westbrook thinks is herself, from both the front and back in photos, is actually Simmons-Nelson. One of the women standing with Tartan Skirted Woman is presumably Tom’s Westbrook, but she didn’t recognize herself in 2016?
Westbrook’s recollection was so strong that she confidently disagreed with the supposed identification of Calvery by the latter’s own son.
Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.
Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event.
What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal?
Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.”
Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is.
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/DARNELL80a.jpg.7404efa09d28549ec8fa02232e60e064.jpg)
Dan is trying to prove this is true.
Re: Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.«
Reply #232 on: Yesterday at 02:49:41 AM »
Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady are in the area near the first floor elevators 50 to 70 seconds after the shooting.
Truly and Baker arrive on the scene 10 to 20 seconds later.
Obviously, these are guesstimates but it's somewhere in this ballpark IMO
He totally ignores and dismisses the statements of the DPD Harkness, Barnett and Detective Sawyer which meshes with the statements of Adams and Styles as to time stamps on their trek around the TSBD. Bottom line is they left much later than they thought and stated. Which in turn meshes with what Shelley and Lovelady stated, as to the encounter at the elevator. This was done to death in this thread.
Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview (jfkassassinationforum.com)
Apparently, now he is taking a whole different path trying to prove the same thing.
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(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/women3.gif)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Match.jpg)
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"For over a century, social scientists have been conducting experiments concerning people’s ability to estimate the duration of a stressful incident. Those studies have consistently shown not only that most people have enormous difficulty estimating the length of these events but also that the vast majority of these errors are in the same direction – toward overestimating the duration of a stressful event. Overestimation can vary substantially depending on the amount of stress accompanying the event."
“Testing Jurors’ Understanding of Eyewitness Reliability Evidence,” Jurimetrics 177, 198 (Winter 2006).
One source states that time estimates are often exaggerated by 2.5 to 5 times the actual duration. Another very large study showed that overestimates of 3-4 times were common.
I happen to think Pat Speer’s estimates may be unrealistically short because he was trying to make everything fit with Adams' supposed sighting, which I do not think occurred at all, but I think he is on the right track.
For the reasons stated above, precision is impossible. Surely, a Presidential motorcade that suddenly turns into an assassination would have to be just about the ultimate stressful and chaotic event. If we try to work out a scenario that meshes ten participants’ recollections, we are likely to end up way off base. Films and photos can serve as anchors if their exact timing is known – but even then, as we see with the Calvery issue, there can be uncertainty as to who and what they actually show.
CTers never seem to take these variables into account and instead cherry-pick from the accounts and photos to create a conspiracy-oriented scenario. If Fred says two minutes and John says five, and Fred's estimate is a better fit for the conspiracy narrative, then John is lying and the conspirators "got to him."
BTW, doesn't Duncan's video support that Westbrook's Calvery is likely the one whom everyone would remember crying and saying JFK had been shot?
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"For over a century, social scientists have been conducting experiments concerning people’s ability to estimate the duration of a stressful incident. Those studies have consistently shown not only that most people have enormous difficulty estimating the length of these events but also that the vast majority of these errors are in the same direction – toward overestimating the duration of a stressful event. Overestimation can vary substantially depending on the amount of stress accompanying the event."
“Testing Jurors’ Understanding of Eyewitness Reliability Evidence,” Jurimetrics 177, 198 (Winter 2006).
One source states that time estimates are often exaggerated by 2.5 to 5 times the actual duration. Another very large study showed that overestimates of 3-4 times were common.
I happen to think Pat Speer’s estimates may be unrealistically short because he was trying to make everything fit with Adams' supposed sighting, which I do not think occurred at all, but I think he is on the right track.
For the reasons stated above, precision is impossible. Surely, a Presidential motorcade that suddenly turns into an assassination would have to be just about the ultimate stressful and chaotic event. If we try to work out a scenario that meshes ten participants’ recollections, we are likely to end up way off base. Films and photos can serve as anchors if their exact timing is known – but even then, as we see with the Calvery issue, there can be uncertainty as to who and what they actually show.
CTers never seem to take these variables into account and instead cherry-pick from the accounts and photos to create a conspiracy-oriented scenario. If Fred says two minutes and John says five, and Fred's estimate is a better fit for the conspiracy narrative, then John is lying and the conspirators "got to him."
BTW, doesn't Duncan's video support that Westbrook's Calvery is likely the one whom everyone would remember crying and saying JFK had been shot?
Was this written about men by men?
They needed to take into account that women do not hurriedly go anywhere. Ever. It does not matter if it is wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers, acquaintances, fellow employees, daughters, or whoever. They doddle along leaving because they do not want to forget something. The great part is the women think they are leaving quickly, and God help you if you say anything.
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What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal? Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.” Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is. [emphasis added by T.G.]
Dear Lance,
It's ironic that you, great debunker of CTs that you are, are creating one of your own by suggesting that I conspired with Sandy Larsen to implicate the FBI in the assassination of JFK, when it was Larsen (RIP) and Robert Prudhomme who were conspiracy theorists extraordinaire (the latter sent me a PM or email at two o'clock one morning, accusing me of being a "disinfo agent").
Truth-be-told, I started out on this Gloria Calvery "journey" just trying to determine whether or not the alleged dark-complected gal standing "near" the Stemmons Freeway sign with two other gals in the Zapruder film really was Gloria Calvery, as Thierry "The Moon Landings Were Faked" Speth had led our very own Robin Unger and like-minded Don Roberdeau to believe, and which Unger and Roberdeau had, in turn, led us to mistakenly believe for so many years.
So, I started reading the FBI statements of witnesses, and I chanced upon that of Stella Mae Jacob in which she identified herself as "an American Indian" and said that during the motorcade, she and her two TSBD coworkers, Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharon Simmons, were standing about fifty yards (one said "about halfway between the TSBD and the triple underpass" or words to that effect) down Elm Street, on the south side (the same one who said "about halfway" didn't mention which side) of it and near the curb. I also read the FBI statements of Holt and Simmons and noticed that they said that during the motorcade they were standing about fifty yards down Elm Street, on the south side of it and near the curb.
In identical, or near-identical, language.
"I, Stella Mae Jacob, freely furnish the following voluntary statement to Eugene F. Petrakis and A. Raymond Switzer, who have identified themselves to me as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I am an Indian female and reside at 508 South Marsalis, Dallas, Texas. I was born on May 31, 1943 in Wright City, Oklahoma, and have been employed at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm, Dallas, Texas, as typist in the billing department since the 1st of July, 1963. At approximately 12 :00 p .m . on November 22, 1963. I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm Street to await the presidential procession. I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs. Nelson, and [Gloria] Jeanne Holt, both employees of the Texas School Book Depository. I was still standing on the curb at the time president John F. Kennedy was shot I do not recall seeing Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and did not see him at the time of the assassination. I did not observe any strangers in the building on the morning of November 22, 1963. Following the assassination of the president, I tried to return to work in the Texas School Book Depository, but was told by other employees that no one would be allowed in the building so I did not return to work that day. I did not personally know Lee Harvey Oswald although I recall seeing him on several occasions in the lunchroom. I have read this two page statement, initialed each page and each correction and find it true and correct to the best oŁ my knowledge." /s/ Stella Mae Jacob [emphasis added]
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
Then, I looked at the photos and films that showed Elm Street during the motorcade, but I couldn't find a group of three gals anywhere on the south side of it, much less fifty yards down it and near its curb.
Can you?
Given the fact that in Z-60 (see below) the black-haired "Gloria Calvary" (sic) of Speth, Unger and Roberdeau has her head turned to her right and we can see that her complexion is darker than any other human flesh visible in said frame, and given the fact that in the black-and-white Darnell clip that was taken a few minutes after the assassination, this same gal seems to be dark complected and have an "Indian nose" (as Sandy Larsen pointed out), and given the fact that the crying, light-haired gal next to her in that Darnell clip has, iirc, been identified as Gloria Jeanne Holt by her brother, it's reasonable to assume that the three gals aren't Unger's and Roberdeau's "Calvary, Hicks, and Reed" or Westwoods "Mystery Gal, Calvert (sic), and Westwood, but Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, and Sharon Simmons, and if that's the case, we must ask ourselves, "Where the heck was big/tall, glasses-wearing Gloria Calvery with her three South-West Publishing Company colleagues during the motorcade (they all said they were standing on the south side of Elm Street, about halfway between the TSBD and the triple underpass!!!)."
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z060.jpg
I don't remember accusing the FBI (as Robert Prudhomme did) of altering the statements of Jacob, Holt, and Simmons. What I do remember saying is that either the three gals were together in the same room when they were giving their statements, and the first one to do so mistakenly said "south side" and the other two gals followed suit, or the FBI mistakenly believed that the first one was correct in saying "south side" and created "boiler text" for the other two gals in that regard in an honest attempt to expedite said statement-taking and/or typing-up.
Shall I explain to you, once again, how Sandy Larsen and I determined that real-deal Calvery was none other than Robin Unger's and Dan Roberdeau's then-unlabeled mysto person standing to the immediate left of John Templin in their respective Internet labeled-in-yellow Zapruder Frame and Map?
-- Tom
PS Here, for your reading pleasure, are the FBI statements of Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharon Simmons:
"I, Gloria Jeanne Holt, freely furnishthe following voluntary statement to Eugene F. Petrakis and A. Raymond Switzer who have identified themselves to me as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
"I am a Caucasian female and reside at 2521 Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas. I was born on March 27, 1945 in Dallas, Texas, and have been employed at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, as a clerical employee in the billing department since the middle of July,
1963.
"At approximately 12 :10 P.M. on November 22, 1963, I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm Street to await the presidential procession. I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs . Nelson, and Stella Jacob, both-employee of the Texas School Book Depository. [emphasis added]
"I was still standing on the curb at the time the president was shot. I do not recall seeing Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November
22, 1963, and did not see him at the time of the assassination.
"I did not observe any strangers in the building on the morning of November 22, 1963.
"Following the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, I tried to return to work in the Texas School Book Depository but was told
by other employees that no one would be allowed in the building, so I did not return to work that day.
"I did not personally know Lee Harvey Oswald although I recall seeing him on several occasions."
[Dated, witnessed, and signed]
. . . . . . .
"I, Mrs. Sharon Nelson nee Simmons, hereby freely and voluntarily make the following statement to E. J. Robertson
who has identified himself as a Special Agent of the F.B.I.
"My name is Sharon Nelson nee Simmons, and I reside at 409 East 9th Street, Apt. 202, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years
of age, born February 24, 1944, at Abilene, Texas. I am a white female and am employed as a Clark for the Texas School
Book Depository.
"At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street about midway between the
Texas School Book Depository Building and the underpass on Elm Street.
"I was with Jeannie Holt, 2521 Pleasant Drive, Dallas, and Stella Jacob, 508 South Marsalis, Dallas, at the time
the President was shot.
"I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President
Kennedy was shot.
"I do not remember seeing any person in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the morning of November 22, 1963, who was a stranger to me.
"I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12 :20 PM on November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date. "I have read the above statement consisting of one and one half pages and is true and correct to the best of my knowledge."
[Dated, witnessed, and signed]
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This is just an attempt at clarification. I realize that Tom’s (and the late Sandy Larsen’s) identification of Tartan Skirted Woman as Gloria Calvery is extremely important to him for some reason. What I don’t quite understand is why. (Assuming we can trust Gloria’s grave marker, her name was Calvery and not Calvary as it is often misspelled.)
To be clear, I’m not insisting Tartan Skirted Woman isn’t Calvery. I’m just puzzled.
Back in the day, a well-respected researcher named Linda Giovanna Zambanini debated the identification of Calvery with Tom and Sandy, and serious researchers such as Robin Unger, Bart Kamp and others were aligned with Linda in believing that Chubby Crying Woman in the image below was in fact Calvery. It seemed to me that Linda and her supporters made a good case, using old photos, that Chubby Crying Woman looks a lot more like Calvery than Holt (as Tom claims). There was certainly some facial similarity between Calvery and Holt.
Now, however, I see that Linda has “tentatively” joined the Tartan Skirted Woman brigade at the Calvery memorial site. She has an arrow pointing to Tartan Skirted Woman but with a question mark: “Gloria Calvery?”
We will concede that it is Tartan Skirted Woman going up the steps with All White Woman, but my question is, “Why must this be Calvery? What’s the great significance?”
For Tartan Skirted Woman to be Calvery, the following would have to be true:
1. Westbrook’s recollection in 2016 as to where she was standing would have to be dead wrong.
2. Westbrook’s identification of Calvery in the photos would have to be dead wrong, even though “her” Calvery is dressed completely differently from Tartan Skirted Woman.
3. Westbrook’s identification of herself would have to be dead wrong. According to Tom, the woman Westbrook thinks is herself, from both the front and back in photos, is actually Simmons-Nelson. One of the women standing with Tartan Skirted Woman is presumably Tom’s Westbrook, but she didn’t recognize herself in 2016?
Westbrook’s recollection was so strong that she confidently disagreed with the supposed identification of Calvery by the latter’s own son.
Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.
Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event.
What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal?
Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.”
Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is.
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/DARNELL80a.jpg.7404efa09d28549ec8fa02232e60e064.jpg)
If you believe that Calvery is pictured above, then Shelley's, "Running BACK UP There," does Not apply to the TSBD. These 3 women were coming Down from being UP on the knoll.
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I note that the woman in the light scarf in Duncan's video, who would presumably be Westbrook, is fairly attractive and appears to have a slight gap in her front teeth. This would match all photos I have seen of Westbrook, including those from that era. She also appears to be just about exactly the right height, judging from the color photos that Westbrook herself provided to the Sixth Floor Museum. I'm not dogmatic about this because I have no reason to be, but this is an awful lot of coincidences and it's increasingly difficult for me to accept that Tartan Skirted Woman is Calvery. (No, Tom, you don't need to explain to me how you cracked the Calvery code because I've read it all and, while I don't insist you are wrong, I don't think you're going to convince me you're right. Westbrook seems to still be alive - if she changes her story, I'll certainly listen.)
Tom thinks I'm accusing him of "conspiring" with Sandy Larsen? What does that mean? Call it what you will, but I have reviewed umpteen threads and posts on this issue at the Ed Forum, and Tom and Sandy were practically orgasmic in their mutual admiration over what "they" had discovered. It's all what "we" have done on this issue. This from Tom in 2018:
"All I can say is that I consider Sandy to be a truly great American who has done very, very good work on many valuable subjects (excluding, of course, the Arcane Art known as 'The H&L And The Two Marguerites Theory'), and I don't know what I'd do, on this wonderful forum, without him!"
:D :D :D
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Karen-Westbrook.jpg?w=742)
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If you believe that Calvery is pictured below, then Shelley's, "Running BACK UP There," does Not apply to the TSBD. These 3 women were coming Down from being UP on the knoll.
You lost me there.
In his affidavit the day of the JFKA, Shelley said he crossed the street "to the corner of the park" and encountered Calvery. At the WC he said he and Lovelady were on the steps (with him on the landing) when "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said 'The President has been shot' and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."
So in one case he encounters Calvery across the street, and at the WC it's not clear that he's saying anything different. (Well, yes, he is saying they heard Calvery before they left the steps, but he's not necessarily saying she was on the steps before they left.)
Yes, the women in Duncan's video are coming down toward the TSBD from where they had been watching the motorcade. I interpret Shelley's "back up there crying" to mean in the direction of the TSBD, where he and Lovelady could see and hear her. I see no basis for thinking Shelley is saying Calvery ran back toward the knoll.
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I note that the woman in the light scarf in Duncan's video, who would presumably be Westbrook, is fairly attractive and appears to have a slight gap in her front teeth. This would match all photos I have seen of Westbrook, including those from that era. She also appears to be just about exactly the right height, judging from the color photos that Westbrook herself provided to the Sixth Floor Museum. I'm not dogmatic about this because I have no reason to be, but this is an awful lot of coincidences and it's increasingly difficult for me to accept that Tartan Skirted Woman is Calvery. (No, Tom, you don't need to explain to me how you cracked the Calvery code because I've read it all and, while I don't insist you are wrong, I don't think you're going to convince me you're right. Westbrook seems to still be alive - if she changes her story, I'll certainly listen.)
Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,
Why trust Westbrook's memory fifty-four years after-the-fact when she (undoubtedly traumatized at-the-time by seeing JFK's head get blown off about fifty feet from her) is trying to identify her good friend, "Gloria Calvert" (sic) from above and far behind (per the camera's elevation and distance from the subject) in a film frame in which she and all three of her three South-West Publishing Company colleagues were wearing headscarves (which she obviously doesn't remember) and in which she mistook strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt for her "good friend, red-haired Gloria Calvert" (sic) to a smiling-and-nodding Stephen Fagin and a national audience?
Tom thinks I'm accusing him of "conspiring" with Sandy Larsen? What does that mean? Call it what you will, but I have reviewed umpteen threads and posts on this issue at the Ed Forum, and Tom and Sandy were practically orgasmic in their mutual admiration over what "they" had discovered. It's all what "we" have done on this issue. This from Tom in 2018:
"All I can say is that I consider Sandy to be a truly great American who has done very, very good work on many valuable subjects (excluding, of course, the Arcane Art known as 'The H&L And The Two Marguerites Theory'), and I don't know what I'd do, on this wonderful forum, without him!" [emphasis added by T.G. on 10/2/25]
Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,
Sandy Larsen (a fervid believer in the Harvey and Lee and Harry and Hal and the Four Marguerites Cult) and I were giving each other "moral support" for having correctly solved the "Was Gloria Calvery close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get to them within 30 seconds (or so) of the final shot and bellow out to Buell Wesley Frazier, Sarah Stanton, Prayer Man / Prayer Woman and others there that JFK had been shot (and thereby prove that Shelley and Frazier had lied about what they had done and where they had gone immediately after the assassination since they can be seen walking/running towards the railway yard/parking lot in Couch-Darnell?" puzzle.
And I gotta tell ya -- it was a real HOOT doing so!
PS Please let us know when you find those three young gals (Jacob, Holt, and Simmons) standing together near the curb anywhere on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade.
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FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.
Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).
Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.
In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).
I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).
I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.
(https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/whole_scene_cut.jpg?w=768&h=911)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdZFO7QIlvo0JUEEcNRVSggN2Wtz59PmbRUN5AZqLmfEnNM8F55UZ9yZZUX7Z81IU3zVpWIT3tAmt528kHw7nx219nEJn2FW4IKWXlsdfzqKIGlV-aP_FHbqLvYP_UW2zvg8o03EYoCjG1DMXK9KPEOWg4ZQWgNVoIhYKtpLgm05qqveZ7xaqa8ObBGrIueisUESnzrhLLFYvow=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdYdwjk1-XTNpMBTGijFLa3lZna_N4Iqx9GY6O8xC4PI86maw6Lqi_x5fntBb4o8lS6QOy5jKARxgFqIju5by26pG-L4HAiD4SOFAdCUW1UIiyAMNzg4KswgYYb33CkjE0c1NdCH_3yJ0xPNL45MWG6i1ew7LnNMmMU3F8pn60pRFmozoa9lpbFvW-vwVYEf3H6cL1RfOj_R=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdYlqU0Z8s7L2at3k54y_fAgm76DDd7zGYH5pTL8ggH1qA2EA1Ace8sUNYrZzWpn4EifHFKYVareSOJINxx6FrE1sN4OxHtV2AW-8yYTfpBEiRJKrnQeBczHgCCKSfkcfxr7fZxnerwk7AFffHPjZk6yYoDk4Mtce5bCButApi-Pj9isWs2Rn4_Tn1MkheLccdspNGTwHtLjz_oJMKNbdNjIC2sUWsAC7QLo=w1280)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sitesv/AICyYdZU9Sys-pCYyD64E1pSfAkDcO1dH5Q4mUq7w-xYshzkK0FZPfTNs2Jz0_-aDJvLvN0467DzKAe4MV0qfg9eKhHLQFzk2aVXGsCuQAubgzz-xN3Xiw-Ed1msTpS602XIBJWKQQ9JV5HCvmYIznEjj4oMuwdVJZcdp_H2sHSV_W-J_GXNTGzl1jb8SNiWQOADl3UVLrPEwIgdIBI=w1280)
By now I should be used to dealing with the lunacy of a zealot Nutter like Lance, but it still catches me off guard.
The lengths he goes to in order to 'score a point' are mind-blowing. Out goes truth, rationality and common sense. As long as he can find a counter-position he doesn't care how many times he shoots himself in the foot.
Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them
The "reality" of Lovelady and Shelley in the Couch film.
Elsewhere, Lance has referred to this identification as "conclusive" and "definitive".
As far as he is concerned Shelley is shown on the Elm St ext. in Couch.
I disagree and identify Shelley near the bottom of the front steps.
In his zeal to score a point, Lance then completely contradicts his identification of Shelley on the Elm St ext.
Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up.
Now he is arguing that Shelley on the front steps!!
Truly unbelievable ::)
And let's have a quick look at how convincing and clear Stancak's 'Shelley' is:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvZkBg8z/Shelley-Stancak.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Stancak gives no reason for identifying this blurred smudge as Shelley.
None.
This is what Lance views as clear and convincing. This is his standard.
BTW, anyone interested in the JFK case should visit Pat Speer's website. It is an invaluable source of information created by one of the best JFKA researchers.
The chapter "Pinning The Tale On The Oswald" is a devastating critique of the Warren Commission, holding it up for all to see as the fraud, farce and sham it really was. I can only wonder what a foaming-at-the-mouth Nutter like Lance makes of his arguments.
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This is just an attempt at clarification. I realize that Tom’s (and the late Sandy Larsen’s) identification of Tartan Skirted Woman as Gloria Calvery is extremely important to him for some reason. What I don’t quite understand is why. (Assuming we can trust Gloria’s grave marker, her name was Calvery and not Calvary as it is often misspelled.)
To be clear, I’m not insisting Tartan Skirted Woman isn’t Calvery. I’m just puzzled.
Back in the day, a well-respected researcher named Linda Giovanna Zambanini debated the identification of Calvery with Tom and Sandy, and serious researchers such as Robin Unger, Bart Kamp and others were aligned with Linda in believing that Chubby Crying Woman in the image below was in fact Calvery. It seemed to me that Linda and her supporters made a good case, using old photos, that Chubby Crying Woman looks a lot more like Calvery than Holt (as Tom claims). There was certainly some facial similarity between Calvery and Holt.
Now, however, I see that Linda has “tentatively” joined the Tartan Skirted Woman brigade at the Calvery memorial site. She has an arrow pointing to Tartan Skirted Woman but with a question mark: “Gloria Calvery?”
We will concede that it is Tartan Skirted Woman going up the steps with All White Woman, but my question is, “Why must this be Calvery? What’s the great significance?”
For Tartan Skirted Woman to be Calvery, the following would have to be true:
1. Westbrook’s recollection in 2016 as to where she was standing would have to be dead wrong.
2. Westbrook’s identification of Calvery in the photos would have to be dead wrong, even though “her” Calvery is dressed completely differently from Tartan Skirted Woman.
3. Westbrook’s identification of herself would have to be dead wrong. According to Tom, the woman Westbrook thinks is herself, from both the front and back in photos, is actually Simmons-Nelson. One of the women standing with Tartan Skirted Woman is presumably Tom’s Westbrook, but she didn’t recognize herself in 2016?
Westbrook’s recollection was so strong that she confidently disagreed with the supposed identification of Calvery by the latter’s own son.
Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.
Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event.
What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal?
Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.”
Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is.
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/DARNELL80a.jpg.7404efa09d28549ec8fa02232e60e064.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpZZVM0B/Calvery-Holt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.
Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event
Yes, Shelley's affidavit, given a couple of hours after the assassination, should be considered the most reliable.
After the shooting he runs across the street, meets Gloria, returns to the building.
That's it.
No trip down to the railroad yard.
But in his WC testimony he is unequivocal that he stays on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria comes up.
This isn't about 'time dilation'. This is a different sequence of events. This is a fabrication.
So, which is it - he left the steps and met Gloria across the street or he waited on the steps until Gloria arrived?
And as for your 'time dilation' argument - what great trauma was Shelley undergoing, while he waited on the steps, that made time stretch seconds into minutes?
Apart from his affidavit, Shelley lied about his movements after the assassination.
He did not wait on the steps until Gloria arrived - this is a lie.
He did not wait there for 3 minutes - this is a lie.
He did not go across the street AFTER Gloria came up to the steps - this is a lie.
He did not see Truly and Baker outside the building while he was on the "little, old island" - this is a lie.
He did not accompany police officers along the extension - this is a lie.
He did not hang around at the railroad yard for about 10 minutes - this is a lie.
He did not re-enter the building through the west door - this is a lie.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/GpZZVM0B/Calvery-Holt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Expected reply from Fancy Prancer Rants:
"Maybe Gloria Calvert (sic) always took her glasses off when she was crying."
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The picture below was taken in December 1963, a few weeks after the assassination and is of ‘the office girls’ working out of Room 203. It is one of a series of photos donated to the 6th Floor Museum by Karen Westbrook Scranton:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZbBMgC0/Calveryroom203.png) (https://postimages.org/) (https://postimages.org/)
The photo appears with the following description::
“From left to right in this photo: Woman with dark hair whose name is unknown, Gloria Calvery (red hair, with glasses), Carol (last name unknown), another Carol (last name unknown), Karen Hicks in red, and on the far right, Westbrook.”
The woman on the far left is the heavily pregnant Carolyn Arnold. We know from the CE 1381’s that Westbrook worked with two Carol’s but, in the photo above, which Carol was Carol Hughes and which was Carol Ann Reed. On his website, Pat Speer reveals:
“Karen Westbrook also mentioned Carol Ann Reed... (Researcher Brian Doyle reports that he contacted Reed, and that she identified herself in the Christmas photos put online by Westbrook, and that she is the fourth woman from the left, with the white sleeves…)”
From left to right the women are Carolyn Arnold, Gloria Calvery, Carol Hughes, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook.
I wonder if Lance can identify the women below in the above picture:
(https://media.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/DARNELL80a.jpg.7404efa09d28549ec8fa02232e60e064.jpg)
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You lost me there.
In his affidavit the day of the JFKA, Shelley said he crossed the street "to the corner of the park" and encountered Calvery. At the WC he said he and Lovelady were on the steps (with him on the landing) when "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said 'The President has been shot' and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."
So in one case he encounters Calvery across the street, and at the WC it's not clear that he's saying anything different. (Well, yes, he is saying they heard Calvery before they left the steps, but he's not necessarily saying she was on the steps before they left.)
Yes, the women in Duncan's video are coming down toward the TSBD from where they had been watching the motorcade. I interpret Shelley's "back up there crying" to mean in the direction of the TSBD, where he and Lovelady could see and hear her. I see no basis for thinking Shelley is saying Calvery ran back toward the knoll.
So in one case he encounters Calvery across the street, and at the WC it's not clear that he's saying anything different.
Is this statement a deliberate falsehood?
Is it ignorance about the basics?
Is it delusion?
In his WC testimony Shelley leaves no doubt that he stays on the steps until Gloria arrives and that he only leaves the steps AFTER listening to Gloria:
Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
So, which is it Lance - did Shelley meet Gloria across the street or did he stay on the steps until she arrived there?
And while you're mulling that over, let's have your timeline outlining the movements of Shelley and Lovelady from the time of the shots to the moment you see them on the Elm St ext. in Couch about 25 seconds after the shots. This is the fourth time you've been asked for it.
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Last one.
This is nothing more than a point of curiosity for a very bored, housebound me. Yes, if I dive into an issue I do approach it like an appellate lawyer, not a jump-to-my-preferred-conclusion, agenda-driven, spittle-spewing fanatic like Some People I Could Mention.
Tom may well be correct in his identification. I'm not convinced, but he may be. He seems driven by an agenda to make Shelley and Lovelady into liars and the FBI and WC into evidence-fabricating fiends, which I find improbable. If Tartan Skirted Woman can be established as Calvery without all of the supposed (and, I believe, insane) "ramifications" - well, that's fine with me.
Westbrook's 50-year-old recollections are not about some obscure detail. They are about where she was standing, who she was with, and what SHE HERSELF looked like. She is looking at photos, front and back, and saying "That's me."
The person she thinks is her just happens to be standing in the photos with someone who looks a great deal like Calvery - who is precisely whom she recalls standing with her.
She is adamant about all this. She was honest enough to say she wasn't sure who the dark-haired woman next to Calvery is. In those circumstances, I'm not prepared to say she is wrong and Tom is right. If she is wrong, she's very, astoundingly wrong.
She's alive. Did anyone ever show her Duncan's clip? Maybe she'd say, "I'm not sure who those three are, but that's still me in the blue scarf with Gloria in the other photos." Or maybe she'd say, "Yeah, that's us. The dark woman is ______." Or maybe she'd still say, "I don't know who the dark woman is."
I have no idea what point Dan is making. I think Shelley was on the TSBD landing, where he said he was, then quickly left and headed down the Elm extension with Lovelady. I think he either left the steps and crossed the street before encountering Calvery, as he said the day of the JFKA, or left in response to seeing and hearing her as he suggested at the WC. If there is some great contradiction here, I guess I don't see it. The point of his affidavit was what he saw and heard at the time of the assassination, not a detailed itinerary of all his subsequent movements.
If Dan is still in fakery mode, suggesting that isn't Shelley and Lovelady in Couch, he's a lost cause even for a CTer.
Dan is clearly not familiar with the totality of Andrej Stancak's work, which is extensive and impressive even if he is a Prayer Man enthusiast. (Never mind, of course, that this is precisely where Shelley testified he was standing. Never mind, either, that numerous people have pointed out for years that Dan's "Shelley" simply doesn't have Shelley's build.) I don't know where Dan got the photo he has labelled Shelley and attributed to Andrej, but Shelley's suit and tie seem reasonably clear in Andrej's April 10, 2023 piece "The timing of Wiegman film and Altgens6 photograph questions the continuity of frames in Zapruder film," https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2023/04/10/the-timing-of-wiegman-film-and-altgens6-photograph-questions-the-continuity-of-frames-in-zapruder-film/.
Yes, I have seen all the photos that Westbrook herself donated to the Sixth Floor Museum. I mentioned them above. Yes, I would say the dark woman in the trio is not Hicks or Reed. I don't see that this settles anything. Send the clip or photo to Westbrook - her address is public - and see what she says.
Well, it's been fun. Despite its amusement value, whatever issues are being hashed out here are truly not that big of a deal to me because I believe the entire underlying premise of LYING! FABRICATING! and INTIMIDATING!, all to DEFEAT OSWALD'S IRONCLAD ALIBI!, is simply insane.
Dang me, I need to paste inside my hat the old aphorism about wrestling with a pig ...
Carry on, oinkers.
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Tom seems driven by an agenda to make Shelley and Lovelady into liars and the FBI and WC into evidence-fabricating fiends.
Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,
"Last one"?
If so, is that the best chicken you-know-what "Parthian Shot" you can come up with?
Contrary to your asinine insinuation, the reason I started this "journey" wasn't to prove that Shelley and Lovelady had lied or that the FBI and the Warren Commission were implicated in "the coverup," but simply to determine whether or not then-controversial Gloria Calvery had been correctly identified, by "experts" Robin Unger and Don Roberdeau, as the black-haired / dark-complected (see Z-60 and the black-and-white Darnell clip showing the three gals walking back to the TSBS) gal standing "by" the Stemmons Freeway sign in Zapruder (with, strangely, only two of her three South-West Publishing Company colleagues), and if not, if it was possible to determine 1) where she was standing during the motorcade, 2) whether she was close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get to them within 35 seconds (iirc) of the final shot, 3) be visible in Couch-Darnell, and 4) therefore possibly serve as a photographic clue as to who was telling the truth (and who wasn't) regarding what they had witnessed and what they had done immediately after the assassination.
When I proved that Calvary wasn't the black-haired / dark-complected (see Z-60) gal "near" the Stemmons Freeway sign in Zapruder, Sandy Larsen and I were able to locate her (and her dressed-all-in-white colleague) standing about ten feet closer to the TSBD than Robin Unger's and Karen Westbrook's Calvarys (plural).
Then Sandy located Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white colleague standing on (or going up) the steps in Darnell.
Since Mark Tyler's highly-acclaimed-by-you synchronized animation of the motorcade have Couch and Darnell filming the TSBD steps (and Officer Baker running towards them) about 25 seconds after the final shot, the fact that a "Shelley" and "Lovelady" figure can be seen walking/running down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard/parking lot in Couch-Darnell suggests that they didn't wait until Calvery ran up to the steps and bellowed that JFK had been shot, but that "best man" Shelley, with or without his sidekick Lovelady, intercepted her at the "island" across the street from the steps and that it was from this point that Shelley and Lovelady commenced their jaunt to the railway yard/parking lot.
-- Tom
PS Tall, thin Westbrook didn't correctly identify herself in the Zapruder frame fifty-four years after the event because, in it, she was wearing a dark-blue dress and a light-blue headscarf (which looks "off white" in Zapruder) and standing farthest-from-the-camera of the four South-West Publishing Company colleagues, bending in, photographically speaking, with the almost invisible person in front of her and the people surrounding her on both sides.
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It's the Hughes film.
The image I posted in my last Reply is from that.
I believe part of it shows either Hank Norman or Junior Jarman being ushered back into the building. After coming down from the 5th floor, they ran outside but were stopped, briefly grilled by an officer then told to get back inside. It must be about 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination.
Per Trask's "Pictures Of The Pain", your 10-15 minute estimate of your posted Hughes Film Footage showing the front of the TSBD would seem to be accurate. Walk me through what you believe Lovelady did after the Kill Shot. Obviously, Lovelady could Not have been inside the TSBD for 30 minutes following the Kill Shot and be in this Hughes film footage 15 minutes after the Kill Shot too. What did Lovelady do? Where did Lovelady go during the 30 minutes following the Kill Shot?
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Per Trask's "Pictures of the Pain," your 10-15 minute estimate of your posted Hughes film footage showing the front of the TSBD would seem to be accurate. Walk me through what you believe Lovelady did after the kill shot. Obviously, Lovelady could not have been inside the TSBD for 30 minutes following the kill shot and be in this Hughes footage 15 minutes after the kill shot, too. What did Lovelady do? Where did Lovelady go during the 30 minutes following the kill shot?
I've often suspected that the guy in the Alyea film who's standing in the background and who turns his head towards the window and back is Lovelady, standing on a pallet or something.
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/l1.gif)
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I've often suspected that the guy in the Alyea film who's standing in the background and who turns his head towards the window and back is Lovelady, standing on a pallet or something.
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/l1.gif)
Lovelady testified that he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes shortly after the Kill Shot. Lovelady is clearly on the Hughes Film outside of the TSBD 15-20 minutes after the Kill Shot. He can not be in both places at the same time. Though interesting, the above snippet does Not answer this question. Plus, I believe that guy is wearing a Sweat Shirt over a T-Shirt.
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Lovelady testified that he was inside the TSBD for 30 minutes shortly after the kill shot. Lovelady is clearly on the Hughes film outside of the TSBD 15-20 minutes after the kill shot. He cannot be in both places at the same time. Though interesting, the above snippet does not answer this question. Plus, I believe that guy is wearing a sweatshirt over a T-Shirt.
There must have been two Loveladys, then, huh?
Wait! Maybe it was just a "Joe Blow" who wandered in from the street!!!
Afterall, the police were probably letting oodles and gobs of "Joe Blows" into the TSBD at that time!!!
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There must have been two Loveladys, then, huh?
Wait! Maybe it was just a "Joe Blow" who wandered in from the street!!!
So you agree that the man in the snippet you posted is wearing a Sweat Shirt over a T-Shirt. That's good, but it does not answer the question of how Lovelady can be in that Hughes snippet 15-20 minutes after the Kill Shot vs his claiming to be inside the TSBD for 30 minutes shortly after the Kill Shot. The closer you look at the WC Testimony of Lovelady vs the JFK Assassination Images, the more his testimony continues falling apart.
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So, you agree that the man in the snippet you posted is wearing a sweatshirt over a t-shirt.
Did I agree to that?
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I've often suspected that the guy in the Alyea film who's standing in the background and who turns his head towards the window and back is Lovelady, standing on a pallet or something.
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/l1.gif)
How about? (1) Telling us when Lovelady put on that sweatshirt, (2) Telling us when Lovelady changed back into his button-up shirt which we see him wearing when he is sitting down as Oswald is marched by him, Or (3) Set the record straight and say this is Not Lovelady.
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How about? (1) Telling us when Lovelady put on that sweatshirt, (2) Telling us when Lovelady changed back into his button-up shirt which we see him wearing when he is sitting down as Oswald is marched by him, Or (3) Set the record straight and say this is Not Lovelady.
Dear Comrade Storing,
It was you, not I, who said the guy in the clip is wearing a sweatshirt.
D'oh!
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
It was you, not I, who said the guy in the clip is wearing a sweatshirt.
D'oh!
-- Tom
If you really want to solve this case, you need to admit when clearer images reveal your previous claim(s) to have been incorrect. Also, there are people on this Forum looking for information on the JFK Assassination. You should not permit them to be misled. This is the way that Urban Legends get passed around and then eventually accepted as being fact.
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If you really want to solve this case, you need to admit when clearer images reveal your previous claim(s) to have been incorrect.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Unlike your hero, Donald John Trump, I'm not perfect.
Which of my previous claims are you referring to?
When is the last time you admitted to being wrong about something JFKA-related?
There are people on this forum looking for information on the JFK Assassination.
Good!
You should not permit them to be misled.
Do you think I'm misleading them?
If so, how?
This is the way urban legends get passed around, and then eventually accepted as being fact.
You mean like "Harvey, Lee, Hank, and Hal and the Four Marguerites," and "The Evil, Evil CIA Killed JFK"?
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I feel sure I’ve been exposed as a Calvery Luddite since I last appeared, but I have placed Tom and Dan on Eternal Ignore and will not be seeing or responding to their work here or elsewhere, ever. I do have my limits and value my sanity.
However, since I have turned this Calvery Thing into the equivalent of an appellate brief anyway, I did a bit more lawyerly thinking. I’m not dogmatic about where this points, but I tend to think it tilts in favor of Westbrook’s version. You are welcome to disagree.
Just for fun, I read through all of the March 1964 TSBD employee statements in Warren Commission Exhibit 1381.
We have two sets of witnesses who said they were together. They are:
GROUP 1: Westbrook, Calvery, Hicks, Reed.
GROUP 2: Jacob, Holt, Simmons-Nelson.
Where did they say they were when the shots were fired?
GROUP 1
Westbrook: “about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass”
Calvery: “about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass”
Hicks: “halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass”
Reed: “about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass”
GROUP 2
Jacob: “west of the building approximately fifty yards”
Holt: “west of the building approximately fifty yards”
Simmons-Nelson: “about midway between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the underpass on Elm Street”
Note the oddity: Simmons-Nelson uses the same terminology as those in Group 1.
Now we add a new name: Johnson. Why do we add her? Because she says she left the TSBD with Jacob and Holt. The three of them walked to the “corner of Elm and Houston,” where they were joined by Richey, Arnold and Dragoo. Johnson was “standing at this point” when the shots were fired.
Richey says she was with Johnson, Arnold, Dragoo, Baker and Campbell “in the roadway directly south of the” TSBD.
Arnold says she was with Johnson, Richey, Dragoo, Baker and Campbell “in front of” the TSBD.
Dragoo says she was with Johnson, Richey, Arnold and Baker and that she “walked just across the street in front of the building entrance.”
Campbell recalled being with Truly, Richey, Arnold and Reid “next to the curb on Elm Street adjacent to the street signal light.”
We thus have Jacob and Holt leaving the TSBD with Johnson and walking to the corner of Elm and Houston. When they are joined by Richey, Arnold and Dragoo, all but Jacob and Holt apparently remain close to the TSBD entrance. No one mentions leaving the TSBD with Simmons-Nelson; it sounds as though she joined Jacob and Holt as they went farther down Elm.
Did they say anything about the shots?
GROUP 1
Westbrook: The first shot was almost directly in front of her.
Calvery: The first shot was almost directly in front of her.
Hicks: The first shot was almost directly in front of her.
Group 2
Nothing at all was said by Jacob, Holt or Nelson-Simmons.
Does this not seem odd?
What did they do after the shots?
Group 1
All returned to their office inside the TSBD.
Group 2
Jacob and Holt were blocked from returning into the TSBD, as were Johnson and Dragoo.
Simmons-Nelson, Richey and Arnold never returned to the TSBD.
There is clearly something "different" about Group 1.
I don’t want to be dogmatic, but it sounds to me as though (1) Group 1 was a distinct group somewhat farther down Elm than the others (the terminology “halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass” versus “west of the building approximately fifty yards"), (2) Group 1 noticed the first shot occurring directly in front of them, whereas no one in Group 2 said anything about the shots, and (3) only Group 1 was able to renter the TSBD. This all seems consistent with Westbrook’s recollection.
As far as Chubby Crying Woman goes, I’m now thinking she probably is Holt and that is probably Jacob and Simmons-Nelson with her. That clip is well along in the Darnell film, so I’m not sure that it tells us anything about Westbrook’s recollection.
Make of it what you will.
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Last one.
This is nothing more than a point of curiosity for a very bored, housebound me. Yes, if I dive into an issue I do approach it like an appellate lawyer, not a jump-to-my-preferred-conclusion, agenda-driven, spittle-spewing fanatic like Some People I Could Mention.
Tom may well be correct in his identification. I'm not convinced, but he may be. He seems driven by an agenda to make Shelley and Lovelady into liars and the FBI and WC into evidence-fabricating fiends, which I find improbable. If Tartan Skirted Woman can be established as Calvery without all of the supposed (and, I believe, insane) "ramifications" - well, that's fine with me.
Westbrook's 50-year-old recollections are not about some obscure detail. They are about where she was standing, who she was with, and what SHE HERSELF looked like. She is looking at photos, front and back, and saying "That's me."
The person she thinks is her just happens to be standing in the photos with someone who looks a great deal like Calvery - who is precisely whom she recalls standing with her.
She is adamant about all this. She was honest enough to say she wasn't sure who the dark-haired woman next to Calvery is. In those circumstances, I'm not prepared to say she is wrong and Tom is right. If she is wrong, she's very, astoundingly wrong.
She's alive. Did anyone ever show her Duncan's clip? Maybe she'd say, "I'm not sure who those three are, but that's still me in the blue scarf with Gloria in the other photos." Or maybe she'd say, "Yeah, that's us. The dark woman is ______." Or maybe she'd still say, "I don't know who the dark woman is."
I have no idea what point Dan is making. I think Shelley was on the TSBD landing, where he said he was, then quickly left and headed down the Elm extension with Lovelady. I think he either left the steps and crossed the street before encountering Calvery, as he said the day of the JFKA, or left in response to seeing and hearing her as he suggested at the WC. If there is some great contradiction here, I guess I don't see it. The point of his affidavit was what he saw and heard at the time of the assassination, not a detailed itinerary of all his subsequent movements.
If Dan is still in fakery mode, suggesting that isn't Shelley and Lovelady in Couch, he's a lost cause even for a CTer.
Dan is clearly not familiar with the totality of Andrej Stancak's work, which is extensive and impressive even if he is a Prayer Man enthusiast. (Never mind, of course, that this is precisely where Shelley testified he was standing. Never mind, either, that numerous people have pointed out for years that Dan's "Shelley" simply doesn't have Shelley's build.) I don't know where Dan got the photo he has labelled Shelley and attributed to Andrej, but Shelley's suit and tie seem reasonably clear in Andrej's April 10, 2023 piece "The timing of Wiegman film and Altgens6 photograph questions the continuity of frames in Zapruder film," https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2023/04/10/the-timing-of-wiegman-film-and-altgens6-photograph-questions-the-continuity-of-frames-in-zapruder-film/.
Yes, I have seen all the photos that Westbrook herself donated to the Sixth Floor Museum. I mentioned them above. Yes, I would say the dark woman in the trio is not Hicks or Reed. I don't see that this settles anything. Send the clip or photo to Westbrook - her address is public - and see what she says.
Well, it's been fun. Despite its amusement value, whatever issues are being hashed out here are truly not that big of a deal to me because I believe the entire underlying premise of LYING! FABRICATING! and INTIMIDATING!, all to DEFEAT OSWALD'S IRONCLAD ALIBI!, is simply insane.
Dang me, I need to paste inside my hat the old aphorism about wrestling with a pig ...
Carry on, oinkers.
I do approach it like an appellate lawyer, not a jump-to-my-preferred-conclusion, agenda-driven, spittle-spewing fanatic
This is a falsehood.
You are a dyed-in-the-wool, foaming-at-the-mouth, Lone Nutter zealot who treats the evidence with utter contempt.
The person she thinks is her just happens to be standing in the photos with someone who looks a great deal like Calvery - who is precisely whom she recalls standing with her.
This is a falsehood.
The woman Westbrook recalls standing next to her DOES NOT look "a great deal like Calvery".
1] Westbrook's 'Gloria' had blonde hair. The real Gloria had flame red hair:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5cZwbbk/Calvery-Holtclosecrop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
2] Gloria towered over her colleagues:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CBb9SjS/Calvery-Reed-Hughes.png) (https://postimages.org/)
She was even taller than Westbrook:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbKx5frL/Calveryroom203tiltedand-lined.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Westbrook's 'Gloria' is possibly the shortest of the three:
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Match.jpg)
3] In every extant picture of Gloria I've ever seen, including her wedding day and year book picture, she is wearing glasses:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzXGzQ3n/Calverycompilation.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Obviously, Gloria needed glasses to see the world around her.
Westbrook's 'Gloria' isn't wearing glasses.
Conclusive proof that Westbrook misidentified Gloria in the Z-film.
In every single account we can find, including Westbrook's, the four work colleagues are together. Therefore, Westbrook's certain misidentification of Gloria in the Z-film means she has incorrectly identified herself in the Z-film. Remember, the only thing she actually remembered was the scarf she thought she was wearing that day. A scarf she lost long ago. A scarf she didn't even mention the colour of.
I have no idea what point Dan is making. I think Shelley was on the TSBD landing, where he said he was, then quickly left and headed down the Elm extension with Lovelady. I think he either left the steps and crossed the street before encountering Calvery, as he said the day of the JFKA, or left in response to seeing and hearing her as he suggested at the WC. If there is some great contradiction here, I guess I don't see it.
So, Lance doesn't see the contradiction?
He doesn't see the contradiction between:
1] Shelley running across the street and meeting Gloria on the 'divider'
and
2] Shelley waiting on the steps until Gloria came running up
In his mind these are somehow the same thing.
Hmmm....
The reality is that these are completely contradictory accounts of his movements.
In his WC account, Shelley is unequivocal that he remained on the steps until Gloria arrived.
Shelley is asked to confirm this sequence of events and he then confirms that it wasn't until AFTER Gloria had come to the steps that he then went across the street.
This sequence of events is incredibly inconvenient for Lance, and anyone who believes in the Shelley/Lovelady-on-Elm identification, as it makes it physically impossible for this to happen in the 25 seconds allotted.
Lance knows this. Four times I've asked him to provide a credible timeline explaining this conundrum and four times he has slithered out of it.
He has been corrected already for trying to peddle the...falsehood that Shelley never really made it clear in his WC testimony that he waited on the steps until Gloria came up.
The truth is that Shelley is unequivocal about this point and in the clearest terms. There is no room for misunderstanding.
Just as both Shelley and Lovelady make it clear they waited there for 3 minutes before Gloria arrived.
Even so, I have no doubt that Lance will carry on spouting his impossible nonsense because he has such contempt for the overwhelming evidence contradicting his identification.
I don't know where Dan got the photo he has labelled Shelley and attributed to Andrej, but Shelley's suit and tie seem reasonably clear in Andrej's April 10, 2023 piece "The timing of Wiegman film and Altgens6 photograph questions the continuity of frames in Zapruder film,"
You don't know where I got the Shelley image from?
Really, Lance?
Because I got it from the site you posted leading to Andrej's work - https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/.
On this page, Andrej has this image:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d02jTYFK/Shelley-Andrej.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I have simply blown up the centre image showing that his identification of Shelley is based on nothing more than an indistinct smudge:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvZkBg8z/Shelley-Stancak.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Andrej gives no reason whatsoever for why he has identified this smudge as Shelley in the Darnell clip.
You'd know this if you had the first clue about his work.
And the image you are referring to, that you believe shows Shelley's suit and tie, comes from Weigman and is taken BEFORE the shots.
BEFORE Shelley runs across the street where he meets Gloria coming the other way. The Darnell 'smudge' is taken AFTER the shots and AFTER Shelley has run across the street. There is no reason whatsoever to label this smudge as Shelley.
Especially as we can see Shelley returning to the steps in Darnell.
Yes, I would say the dark woman in the trio is not Hicks or Reed. I don't see that this settles anything
:D :D :D
Brilliant stuff.
At long last you are correct...a stopped clock and all that.
Well done. The non-Caucasian woman is not Hicks or Reed.
She is, as Tom has been telling you over and over again, Stella Jacobs.
Stella is known to have been with her colleagues, Sharon Simmons and Jeannie Holt, watching the motorcade.
It is further proof Westbrook got it seriously wrong (as if any more were needed).
Does that settle it for you?
(I doubt it ::))
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I have placed Tom on Eternal Ignore and will not be seeing or responding to his work here or elsewhere, ever.
Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,
Your placing me on "ignore" just makes you even more what I already knew you are -- a Trump-loving, KGB-dismissing ignoramus.
-- Tom
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I've often suspected that the guy in the Alyea film who's standing in the background and who turns his head towards the window and back is Lovelady, standing on a pallet or something.
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/l1.gif)
Bump regarding previous claim(s).
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Bump regarding previous claim(s).
That dude must have been one of the oodles and gobs of "Joe Blows" the police let into the TSBD right after the assassination as a really, really early promotional gig for The Sixth Floor Museum, huh?
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The way it seems to me is that the 2 men that Baker saw near the rear elevators, (whom both were white men) , are either Lovelady and Shelley, or they are 2 unknown non TSBD employees.
Since the WC was trying to establish that there was no conspiracy, then surely there should have been more effort to identify those 2 men, right? After all, there were already Mark Lane CTs questioning everything so it seems odd that the WC would not clear up the matter.
So the fact that there was no effort by those questioning Baker to further elaborate about the 2 men, suggest there was some other reason to avoid the issue.
Therefore I think it is warranted to suggest that the 2 men were Lovelady and Shelly and that the reason the WC did not establish L/S as the 2 men ( this nullifying any CT ? Immediately) must be because identifying the 2 men would iinterfere with the WC theory of Oswald’s staircase descent from 6th floor to 2nd floor lunchroom.
Dorothy Garners statement was suppressed as a seemingly unimportant memo, and she was never called by the WC as a witness. So all the more reason therefore to suspect that the reluctance of the WC to establish Lovelady and Shelley as the 2 men was to avoid establishing the Adams/Stiles 60 sec post shots sighting of Lovelady and Shelley( an vice versa).
But the problem here, is getting Lovelady and Shelley to the rear elevators by 60 secs post shots, without them having made some contact with Baker and Truly in the front lobby, or at the bottleneck area of the front desk without the 2 parties having LOS to each other at around 45-50 secs post shots.
This is where I question is the route that Lovelady and Shelley took was through the front entrance doors of TSBD just ahead ( by only about 10 secs ) of Baker and Truly doing likewise.
I think its just as probable that Lovelady and Shelley could have left the steps after both of them saw and heard Calvary, and traveled some 200 ft in about 30 more secs from the point where at about 30 secs post shots they seem to be moving in that “ enhanced” clip from Couch (Gerda D’s ) film.
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So Officer Baker thinks there is an active shooter inside the TSBD and he encounters 2 men near the elevator/1st floor exit and he does not confront them? That is strange. Extremely strange.
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So, Officer Baker thinks there is an active shooter inside the TSBD and he encounters two men near the elevator/1st floor exit and he does not confront them? That is strange. Extremely strange.
He thought the shots had come from the roof. If he and Truly entered the front door about 30 seconds after the final shot, he probably figured those two guys (who weren't together and one of whom was sitting) couldn't have been on the roof and gotten down to the first floor so quickly.
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(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/l1.gif)
For the longest time I didn't believe it was Lovelady (I thought it might be the elusive Jack Dougherty) because this guy seemed really tall, was wearing what appeared to be a less white shirt over a very white t-shirt and the hairline and head shape didn't seem to match with Lovelady from the Martin film (I think the Martin image is somehow distorted):
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wryz6fM/Lovelady-or-Dougherty4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
However, when I compared the image to a Lovelady mugshot it became clear that this man is, indeed, Lovelady:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbRwxNM6/Lovelady-or-Dougherty3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I believe the Alyea footage shows Fritz in the foreground standing in the area where the rifle was found. It is just after the discovery of the rifle. Off to one side is Lt. Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints. My guess is that it's taken somewhere between 13:40 and 13:50 PM, shortly before Truly comes up from the first floor to tel Fritz that Oswald is missing.
It would be good to ID the detective that Fritz is talking to, it might help with a more certain timestamp.
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Actually , it was not until about 70 secs post shots that Baker and Truly encounter the 2 mystery white men “loitering” around the rear elevators.
So like Storing ? Why did not Truly ID these men to Baker as TSBD employees?
Imo, if Truly did not recognize 2 men at the rear elevators as TSBD employees then surely he would have questioned their presence there would he not?
This points therefore to those 2 men being Lovelady and Shelley and it was at this 70 sec post shots encounter when Truly told Lovelady to guard the elevators while Truly and Baker prepared to start ascending the staircases.
But then there is Luke Mooney arriving next, so Mooney should have encountered Lovelady guarding the elevators should he not ?
And Luke Mooney had an encounter with Victoria Adams at the rear elevator on the 2nd floor which was stuck because the power was off and he couldn’t operate the elevator. So Mooney starts ascending the stairs and lo and behold he counters 2 plainclothes men coming down the stairs!
Meanwhile, where the heck are Shelley and Lovelady if they were supposed to be guarding the elevators when Mooney gets to the rear elevator on the 2nd floor?
I think the solution must be that Mooney went up to the 2nd floor using the FRONT staircase at the front lobby entrance, thus he did not make contact with Shelley or Lovelady if they were still guarding the rear elevators on the 1st floor.
I think that Victoria Adams after standing outside in front of TSBD for about 2 minutes decided to go back into TSBD and return to the 4th floor office. Not sure which way she went though, however which ever way, she runs into Mooney on the 2nd floor at the rear elevators.
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I think the Martin image is somehow distorted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wryz6fM/Lovelady-or-Dougherty4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The Martin image isn't distorted, Lovelady's face is distorted because he's exhaling cigarette smoke in-a-smoke-circle-creating or a "I wanna see the little puffs leave my mouth" kinda way.
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Actually , it was not until about 70 secs post shots that Baker and Truly encounter the 2 mystery white men “loitering” around the rear elevators.
So like Storing ? Why did not Truly ID these men to Baker as TSBD employees?
Imo, if Truly did not recognize 2 men at the rear elevators as TSBD employees then surely he would have questioned their presence there would he not?
This points therefore to those 2 men being Lovelady and Shelley and it was at this 70 sec post shots encounter when Truly told Lovelady to guard the elevators while Truly and Baker prepared to start ascending the staircases.
But then there is Luke Mooney arriving next, so Mooney should have encountered Lovelady guarding the elevators should he not ?
And Luke Mooney had an encounter with Victoria Adams at the rear elevator on the 2nd floor which was stuck because the power was off and he couldn’t operate the elevator. So Mooney starts ascending the stairs and lo and behold he counters 2 plainclothes men coming down the stairs!
Meanwhile, where the heck are Shelley and Lovelady if they were supposed to be guarding the elevators when Mooney gets to the rear elevator on the 2nd floor?
I think the solution must be that Mooney went up to the 2nd floor using the FRONT staircase at the front lobby entrance, thus he did not make contact with Shelley or Lovelady if they were still guarding the rear elevators on the 1st floor.
I think that Victoria Adams after standing outside in front of TSBD for about 2 minutes decided to go back into TSBD and return to the 4th floor office. Not sure which way she went though, however which ever way, she runs into Mooney on the 2nd floor at the rear elevators.
I can buy into some of the earlier points you make, but there is Nothing ID'ing one of the women that Officer Mooney encountered as being Vicky Adams. You need to be careful about cavalierly applying ID's to people. If it's your opinion please state such. People come here looking for Facts about the JFK Assassination.
Why would Officer Mooney enter the 1st floor right next to the freight elevators and Not use those same elevators to go up? Why would he walk clear across the 1st floor? Mooney clearly testified that the elevator power went Out AFTER he was going up with the 2 women.
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He thought the shots had come from the roof. If he and Truly entered the front door about 30 seconds after the final shot, he probably figured those two guys (who weren't together and one of whom was sitting) couldn't have been on the roof and gotten down to the first floor so quickly.
"He probably...?" You ever see a cop enter a house? They "clear" every room, every stranger they encounter. 1 story house, 5 story house, doesn't matter. Protocol.
Officer Baker should have quickly patted Oswald down. Maybe Oswald was carrying that Phony ID? Finding that Phony Id on Oswald would have saved Tippit's life.
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"He probably...?" You ever see a cop enter a house? They "clear" every room, every stranger they encounter. 1 story house, 5 story house, doesn't matter. Protocol.
Officer Baker should have quickly patted Oswald down. Maybe Oswald was carrying that Phony ID? Finding that Phony Id on Oswald would have saved Tippit's life.
Okay, Inspector Clouseau.
You seem to forget, however, that the seven-story TSBD was a large building, that Baker's first thought was that the shots had come from the roof, that when he and Truly entered the building only about thirty seconds after the final shot, he was the only policeman in it, and that it would have taken him several minutes to get to the roof if he'd "cleared" every nook and cranny on his way up.
D'oh!
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For some reason it just occurred to me that the FBI Hosty note about Oswald being “out front watching the P. Parade” could mean that Oswald had said he was out in the front LOBBY looking out at the parade thru those big clear glass walls.
This would be consistent with an FBI account of Carolyn Arnold having stated she had seen Oswald in the front entrance LOBBY approx 12:25 when she looked back towards the front doors of TSBD. ( she saw him through the glass wall).
This would also be consistent with Oswald on film saying he was IN the building when asked where he was at the time of the shooting.
So now it all works out quite well that Oswald had been sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom eating lunch when Carolyn Arnold saw him there at 12:15.
Then after Carolyn left to go outside with her friend Virgie Rachley , Oswald decided he should return to the Domino room and finish his lunch there ( probably thinking Carolyn might say something to Mrs Reid and he would get in trouble if he stayed in the 2nd floor lunchroom.)
So at about 12:23 Harold Norman and James Jarman , returned to the rear door of TSBD at the loading dock and they bypassed the Domino room , and they were seen by Oswald going to the rear elevators. N&J , however, did not see Oswald because they were looking 180 degrees the opposite direction at the elevator shaft.
So Oswald saw and probably heard something said by Norman or Jarmin about the JFK limo about to arrive, which prompted Oswald to leave the Domino room and go to the front lobby and look “out at the parade” at around 12:25. He was then seen standing by the plate glass wall, in the lobby, by Carolyn Arnold looking back at the TSBD entrance.
Now, after the shots fired and Oswald saw Baker running towards the front entrance, Oswald crossed the lobby and went up the front staircase, and then down the outer hallway of 2nd floor and into the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Why did Oswajd do that? Probably because that was where he had left his jacket and maybe had his keys in the jacket also. He needed those before he could go outside to see what the commotion was about.
So this times out remarkably well that Oswald had just entered the 2nd floor lunchroom at about 80-85 secs by using the outer hallway.
And the opening and closing of the 2nd inner door by Oswald when he went thru vestibule to enter the lunchroom, caused the light streaming thru that 2x2’ window of the outer door, to flicker which caught the eye of Baker as he arrived to the 2nd floor landing. This prompted Bsjer to shift over to look thru the window and that’s when he saw Oswald walking away.
It all works out now that Oswald remained IN the TSBD lobby ( and he was unseen by Piper in the lobby because there was solid brick wall that blocked LOS to Oswald.from Pipers position at the south side TSBD window where Piper was looking out.
This would explain how Lovelady and Shelley would not have seen Oswald whether they arrived to the rear elevators either by the west side door of TSBD or if they came thru the front lobby 15-20 secs ahead of Truly and Baker.
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Okay, Inspector Clouseau.
You seem to forget, however, that the seven-story TSBD was a large building, that Baker's first thought was that the shots had come from the roof, that when he and Truly entered the building only about thirty seconds after the final shot, he was the only policeman in it, and that it would have taken him several minutes to get to the roof if he'd "cleared" every nook and cranny on his way up.
D'oh!
Officer Baker's conduct inside the TSBD was inconsistent to put it mildly. But there's also his preamble. Baker claims that pigeons led him to believe that there was an active shooter atop/inside the TSBD, yet he does Not ride his motorcycle right up to the front steps. He does Not choose the fastest path to enter a building containing an active shooter. Baker instead rides his motorcycle around the corner, parks his bike at the curb, and then runs up Elm St and then across the Elm St Ext. This "course of action" in the face of an active shooter just does not fit this situation. And then there's Officer Baker, prior to his WC Q/A, going through 3 dress rehearsals with the WC Attorney regarding the tick-tock of his entering the TSBD. That challenges the smell test.
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Officer Baker's conduct inside the TSBD was inconsistent to put it mildly. But there's also his preamble. Baker claims that pigeons led him to believe that there was an active shooter atop/inside the TSBD, yet he does Not ride his motorcycle right up to the front steps. He does Not choose the fastest path to enter a building containing an active shooter. Baker instead rides his motorcycle around the corner, parks his bike at the curb, and then runs up Elm St and then across the Elm St Ext. This "course of action" in the face of an active shooter just does not fit this situation. And then there's Officer Baker, prior to his WC Q/A, going through 3 dress rehearsals with the WC Attorney regarding the tick-tock of his entering the TSBD. That challenges the smell test.
Dear Comrade Inspector Clouseau,
It's a PITY that Officer Baker was NOT as LOGICAL as you ALWAYS ARE when YOU'RE under intense PRESSURE in a dynamic SITUATION!!!
-- Tom
PS Hey! Maybe he was part of THE HUGE GATES CONSPIRACY, or maybe the EVIL, EVIL CIA forced him to COLLUDE in its evil, evil COVERUP!!!
Boy oh Boy oh Boy -- That dirty, rotten DPD Officer Marion Baker!!!
(And I bet he was a XXXXXX-LOVIN' LIBTARD DEMOCRAT, too!!!)
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Maybe Baker didn’t want to accidentally run over all those people with his motorcycle?
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Maybe Baker didn’t want to accidentally run over all those people with his motorcycle?
There were people stretched all down Elm St where he parked the motorcycle. The Lovelady and Shelley characters were not only able to walk cross the Elm St Ext there at the corner, they were able to walk right down the middle of that street. Wide open. Just my opinion, but Baker fully turning the corner makes his then reversing course and running toward the TSBD appear to be a 2nd thought. Maybe somebody yelled and/or pointed toward the TSBD? Something made Baker change his course. This is why I bring up Baker's 3 Dress Rehearsals. Those 3 dress rehearsals were Not restricted to a "silent" movie. Baker's performance is outta sync with his lines.
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There were people stretched all down Elm St where he parked the motorcycle. The Lovelady and Shelley characters were not only able to walk cross the Elm St Ext there at the corner, they were able to walk right down the middle of that street. Wide open. Just my opinion, but Baker fully turning the corner makes his then reversing course and running toward the TSBD appear to be a 2nd thought. Maybe somebody yelled and/or pointed toward the TSBD? Something made Baker change his course. This is why I bring up Baker's 3 Dress Rehearsals. Those 3 dress rehearsals were Not restricted to a "silent" movie. Baker's performance is outta sync with his lines.
YES, YES, YES!!!
(Paranoic much?)
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So Officer Baker thinks there is an active shooter inside the TSBD and he encounters 2 men near the elevator/1st floor exit and he does not confront them? That is strange. Extremely strange.
There were people in the lobby when he entered the building but he didn't question them.
There were people on the fourth floor but he didn't question them.
Two unarmed men on the first floor are not going to raise any suspicions.
Maybe it was at this time that Truly told Shelley to guard the elevators, showing Baker that the two white men worked there. Maybe.
What can't be disputed is that Baker reports seeing two white men in this area seconds after the shooting, and Vicki Adams reports Shelley and Lovelady also being in that same area seconds after the shooting.
Go figure.
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There were people in the lobby when he entered the building but he didn't question them.
There were people on the fourth floor but he didn't question them.
Two unarmed men on the first floor are not going to raise any suspicions.
Maybe it was at this time that Truly told Shelley to guard the elevators, showing Baker that the two white men worked there. Maybe.
What can't be disputed is that Baker reports seeing two white men in this area seconds after the shooting, and Vicki Adams reports Shelley and Lovelady also being in that same area seconds after the shooting.
Go figure.
If you look at Officer Baker's WC Testimony, he was Not Sure that shots had been fired from the TSBD. He also thought the Dal Tek building was the source of the shots. That said, Baker does admit to having his gun drawn when going up the stairwell behind Truly and still having that gun drawn when confronting Oswald inside the 2nd floor lunchroom. Yet, he does not "pat" Oswald down or anyone else inside the TSBD for that matter. For a 7-8 year DPD vet, Baker's actions during his time approaching the TSBD on his motorcycle and once inside the TSBD on 11/22/63 as he describes them are totally inconsistent.
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If you look at Officer Baker's WC Testimony, he was Not Sure that shots had been fired from the TSBD. He also thought the Dal Tek building was the source of the shots. That said, Baker does admit to having his gun drawn when going up the stairwell behind Truly and still having that gun drawn when confronting Oswald inside the 2nd floor lunchroom. Yet, he does not "pat" Oswald down or anyone else inside the TSBD for that matter. For a 7-8 year DPD vet, Baker's actions during his time approaching the TSBD on his motorcycle and once inside the TSBD on 11/22/63 as he describes them are totally inconsistent.
There's no reason for Baler to pat Oswald down because Truly vouched for him.
As I say, the important point is that around 50 - 70 seconds after the assassination both Baker and Adams report two white men in the vicinity of the elevators.
These two white men are Shelley and Lovelady.
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There's no reason for Baler to pat Oswald down because Truly vouched for him.
As I say, the important point is that around 50 - 70 seconds after the assassination both Baker and Adams report two white men in the vicinity of the elevators.
These two white men are Shelley and Lovelady.
Question: Why didn't Adams and Styles see Truly, Baker or Oswald on the stairs, and vice versa?
Answer: Oswald, Baker and Truly were in the second-floor lunchroom "vestibule" while Adams and Styles were transiting a corner of the second floor.
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There's no reason for Baler to pat Oswald down because Truly vouched for him.
As I say, the important point is that around 50 - 70 seconds after the assassination both Baker and Adams report two white men in the vicinity of the elevators.
These two white men are Shelley and Lovelady.
Well, if you believe that Oswald fired the shots, then it's obvious that Truly vouching that Oswald worked there meant nothing. Which it always does if you're a cop responding to "Shots Fired". A Cop confronts/clears every stranger he encounters in a situation such as this. You notice that Baker had his gun drawn from the time he mounted the stairwell and that was with Truly in front of him. Baker did not know Truly from Adam and having his gun drawn on him from behind demonstrates this.
Those 2 guys near the elevator are an issue, but there is more. A Lot More ......................... STAY TUNED -----------------------
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Well, if you believe that Oswald fired the shots, then it's obvious that Truly vouching that Oswald worked there meant nothing. Which it always does if you're a cop responding to "shots fired". A Cop confronts/clears every stranger he encounters in a situation such as this. You notice that Baker had his gun drawn from the time he mounted the stairwell and that was with Truly in front of him.
BFD
(Pardon my German.)
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Question: Why didn't Adams and Styles see Truly, Baker or Oswald on the stairs, and vice versa?
Answer: Oswald, Baker and Truly were in the second-floor lunchroom "vestibule" while Adams and Styles were transiting a corner of the second floor.
Perhaps.
I'm thinking Adams and Styles were out the loading dock door before Truly and Baker arrived at the elevators,
I doubt the noise of the two women clattering along the wooden floor would not have gone unnoticed by someone in the "vestibule" but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
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Well, if you believe that Oswald fired the shots, then it's obvious that Truly vouching that Oswald worked there meant nothing. Which it always does if you're a cop responding to "Shots Fired". A Cop confronts/clears every stranger he encounters in a situation such as this. You notice that Baker had his gun drawn from the time he mounted the stairwell and that was with Truly in front of him. Baker did not know Truly from Adam and having his gun drawn on him from behind demonstrates this.
Those 2 guys near the elevator are an issue, but there is more. A Lot More ......................... STAY TUNED -----------------------
You're going round in circles, Royell.
Baker didn't "clear" Truly.
Or any of the people in the lobby.
Or Dorothy Garner and her colleagues on the fourth floor.
And your notion, that Baker pulled his gun on Truly as they were climbing the stairs, is insane.
You really must think things through before posting.
What's important is that around 50 - 70 seconds after the assassination both Baker and Adams report two white men in the vicinity of the elevators.
These two white men are Shelley and Lovelady.
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Perhaps.
I'm thinking Adams and Styles were out the loading dock door before Truly and Baker arrived at the elevators,
I doubt the noise of the two women clattering along the wooden floor would not have gone unnoticed by someone in the "vestibule" but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
If 1) Baker arrived at the front door about 30 seconds after the final shot (per Couch-Darnell), and 2) Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, and 3) Adams and Styles exited through the loading dock door before Baker and Truly arrived at the elevators and saw Shelley and Lovelady nearby, 4) since Baker/Truly and Adams/Styles didn't see each other or Oswald on the stairs, how does Baker's and Adams' spotting Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor prove Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor during the shooting?
By the same token, if 1) Baker (with Truly) saw Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators about a minute after the final shot, and 2) Adams and Styles started down about a minute after the final shot and traversed a corner of the second floor while Baker, Truly, and Oswald were in the lunchroom's "vestibule," and 3) Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when they got there, how would it prove that Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor during the shooting?
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If 1) Baker arrived at the front door about 30 seconds after the final shot (per Couch-Darnell), and 2) Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor, and 3) Adams and Styles exited through the loading dock door before Baker and Truly arrived at the elevators and saw Shelley and Lovelady nearby, 4) since Baker/Truly and Adams/Styles didn't see each other or Oswald on the stairs, how does Baker's and Adams' spotting Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor prove Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor during the shooting?
By the same token, if 1) Baker (with Truly) saw Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators about a minute after the final shot, and 2) Adams and Styles started down about a minute after the final shot and traversed a corner of the second floor while Baker, Truly, and Oswald were in the lunchroom's "vestibule," and 3) Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when they got there, how would it prove that Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor during the shooting?
There's no proof Oswald was or wasn't on the 6th floor for the shooting.
If there was this discussion wouldn't be happening.
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There's no proof Oswald was or wasn't on the 6th floor for the shooting.
If there was this discussion wouldn't be happening.
I didn't say that there was (although there is more evidence that he was than he wasn't).
Did you start this thread in an attempt to prove that he couldn't have been on the sixth floor during the shooting?
If not, why, then, did you start it?
To implicate someone else for the assassination?
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I didn't say that there was (although there is more evidence that he was than he wasn't).
Did you start this thread in an attempt to prove that he couldn't have been on the sixth floor during the shooting?
If not, why, then, did you start it?
To implicate someone else for the assassination?
Did you start this thread in an attempt to prove that he couldn't have been on the sixth floor during the shooting?
No, I did not start this thread in an attempt to prove Oswald couldn't have been on the 6th floor during the shooting.
Is that what you've been thinking all along??
What a f%cking waste of time it is dealing with you.
I started the thread to prove that Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They lied to cover up the fact that they made their way towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker.
The fact these two 'innocent' men felt the need to lie repeatedly to various law enforcement agencies raises some serious issues with your narrative.
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Did you start this thread in an attempt to prove that he couldn't have been on the sixth floor during the shooting?
No, I did not start this thread in an attempt to prove Oswald couldn't have been on the 6th floor during the shooting.
Is that what you've been thinking all along??
What a f%cking waste of time it is dealing with you.
I started the thread to prove that Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They lied to cover up the fact that they made their way towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker.
The fact these two 'innocent' men felt the need to lie repeatedly to various law enforcement agencies raises some serious issues with your narrative.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Did the evil evil CIA, the evil evil FBI, the evil evil DPD, or the evil evil [fill in the blank] force Shelley and Lovelady to lie to cover up its involvement in the JFK assassination?
Gasp . . . did Shelley and Lovelady participate in the JFK assassination???
Why don't you tell us what your conspiracy theory is?
Why is Shelly's and Lovelady's lying about [fill in the blank] so gosh darn important to you?
-- Tom
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Did you start this thread in an attempt to prove that he couldn't have been on the sixth floor during the shooting?
No, I did not start this thread in an attempt to prove Oswald couldn't have been on the 6th floor during the shooting.
Is that what you've been thinking all along??
What a f%cking waste of time it is dealing with you.
I started the thread to prove that Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
They lied to cover up the fact that they made their way towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker.
The fact these two 'innocent' men felt the need to lie repeatedly to various law enforcement agencies raises some serious issues with your narrative.
Are you claiming that after the Kill Shot: (1) Shelley/Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door? (2) The 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext on the Couch & Darnell Films are NOT Shelley & Lovelady?
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Are you claiming that after the Kill Shot: (1) Shelley/Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door? (2) The 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext on the Couch & Darnell Films are NOT Shelley & Lovelady?
Of course that's what he's claiming.
D'oh!
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Are you claiming that after the Kill Shot: (1) Shelley/Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door? (2) The 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext on the Couch & Darnell Films are NOT Shelley & Lovelady?
I've stated exactly that about a dozen times in this thread alone.
Don't you take any notice of the things other people are posting?
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I've stated exactly that about a dozen times in this thread alone.
Don't you take any notice of the things other people are posting?
My questions are only for the "current" record. Sometimes people change their mind when New Fact(s) are introduced. And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker. That could change too. You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that. Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley and they decided to make a (R) turn and enter the TSBD via the "wide open" Huge Gates? This would put them right there at the freight elevator where Officer Baker viewed the 2 guys.
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My questions are only for the "current" record. Sometimes people change their mind when New Fact(s) are introduced. And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker. That could change too. You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that. Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley and they decided to make a (R) turn and enter the TSBD via the "wide open" Huge Gates? This would put them right there at the freight elevator where Officer Baker viewed the 2 guys.
My questions are only for the "current" record.
Your questions reveal that you are unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
Your insinuation, that my arguments have changed during the course of this thread, reveals that you are completely unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
You are only interested in your own posts, which always have a 'disconnected' feeling about them because you are not actually interested in the topic of whatever thread you are posting on. You are just looking for an opportunity to post about your own "current" theory - STAY TUNED.
And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker.
I'm not "buying into" anything.
If you were familiar with the contents of this thread you would see that I am presenting my own arguments and timeline. Although I'm not the first, I'm actually doing something quite novel - I'm taking Vicki Adams at her word. That she did race down from the 4th floor within seconds of the shooting and that she did, indeed, see Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators when she got down to the first floor and that she did all this before Baker and Truly reached the same area (Baker then reporting seeing two white men in this area - Shelley and Lovelady).
Nearly everyone, on both sides of the fence, take the word of Shelley and Lovelady about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. But it is the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate that these two men are lying in their various statements about their movements.
You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that
This statement demonstrates your ignorance regarding the contents of this thread.
I don't know how many times I've made the point that the only account of their movements given by these two men that can be considered reliable are the affidavits they gave a couple of hours after the shooting.
These are their very first statements given to law enforcement.
In the affidavits Shelley is on the front steps, he runs across the street and back, the re-enters the building. Lovelady is stood on the front steps and doesn't even leave the steps before re-entering the building. No walking along the Elm St ext., no hanging around the railroad yard, no re-entering the building through the west door.
Their affidavits are very strong evidence supporting a re-entry through the front doors.
As is the tightness of the timeline in terms of Vicki Adams seeing both men near the elevators 50 -60 seconds after the shooting.
Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley
There's no need to "suppose" any such thing.
They are NOT Shelley and Lovelady.
So many people have bought into a single, clearly faked image but this has led them to completely disregard the testimonial evidence and start creating their own sequence of events, not supported by any evidence. In fact, utterly refuted by the testimonial evidence.
The crux of the matter is the interaction of Shelley and Lovelady with Gloria Calvery.
This interaction must occur before we see 'Shelley and Lovelady' on he Elm St ext. in Darnell.
But this image is taken around 25 seconds after the shooting and the two men are already well down the street, making it impossible for them to have already had the interaction with Gloria on the front steps (both men are unequivocal about this point in their WC testimonies).
In order to overcome this insurmountable problem, people like Tom and Lance have started peddling the idea that BOTH Lovelady and Shelley raced across the street and met Gloria coming the other way at the "little, old island" dividing the two Elm Streets.
This is a fabrication based on zero evidence created because of their unwavering belief in the image Bart Kamp sharpened up.
They never thought to question this image even though the identification is refuted by the testimonial evidence.
So they've made up something new and once that happens any realistic debate ends.
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Perry Mason, Episode #297, “The Case of the Vanishing Assassin” (air date 11/22/64).
As always, Perry, Della Street, Hamilton Berger and Gomer Pyle are sitting at a table in an upscale restaurant at the end of the show, as Della attempts to summarize the plot for 30 million confused viewers who didn’t quite follow it.
Della: “And so, Perry, Shelley and Lovelady left the TSBD steps only long enough to be captured on film before turning through the Huge Gates and reentering the TSBD through the little door next to the parking area … however, the Warren Commission needed to discredit Adams’ account of coming down immediately from the fourth floor but not hearing or encountering Oswald on the stairs – correct so far? … so, Perry, both Lovelady and Shelley were induced to lie and say they had actually spent three minutes on the steps, walked down to the railroad tracks, and observed the festivities for a considerable period before returning to the first floor … this, of course, makes it seem that Adams’ account of seeing Shelley and Lovelady had to be much later – correct? … but wait, Perry, why did Adams then say she had actually said nothing about Shelley and Lovelady at the WC and that her testimony had been altered, presumably by the same evildoers who caused Shelley and Lovelady to lie? … and why, Perry, did Styles say they had seen no one and she had no idea what Adams was talking about - did the evildoers pay her off? … and besides, Perry, why did Shelley and Lovelady, after having told 27 lies anyway, simply not say they had in fact seen Adams but it was many minutes after the JFKA when they had reentered the TSBD … and how do the Three Stooges figure into this anyway? ... I'm still kinda lost here ....”
Gomer: “Sha-zam!”
Perry: “Have another martini, Della.”
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My questions are only for the "current" record.
Your questions reveal that you are unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
Your insinuation, that my arguments have changed during the course of this thread, reveals that you are completely unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
You are only interested in your own posts, which always have a 'disconnected' feeling about them because you are not actually interested in the topic of whatever thread you are posting on. You are just looking for an opportunity to post about your own "current" theory - STAY TUNED.
And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker.
I'm not "buying into" anything.
If you were familiar with the contents of this thread you would see that I am presenting my own arguments and timeline. Although I'm not the first, I'm actually doing something quite novel - I'm taking Vicki Adams at her word. That she did race down from the 4th floor within seconds of the shooting and that she did, indeed, see Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators when she got down to the first floor and that she did all this before Baker and Truly reached the same area (Baker then reporting seeing two white men in this area - Shelley and Lovelady).
Nearly everyone, on both sides of the fence, take the word of Shelley and Lovelady about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. But it is the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate that these two men are lying in their various statements about their movements.
You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that
This statement demonstrates your ignorance regarding the contents of this thread.
I don't know how many times I've made the point that the only account of their movements given by these two men that can be considered reliable are the affidavits they gave a couple of hours after the shooting.
These are their very first statements given to law enforcement.
In the affidavits Shelley is on the front steps, he runs across the street and back, the re-enters the building. Lovelady is stood on the front steps and doesn't even leave the steps before re-entering the building. No walking along the Elm St ext., no hanging around the railroad yard, no re-entering the building through the west door.
Their affidavits are very strong evidence supporting a re-entry through the front doors.
As is the tightness of the timeline in terms of Vicki Adams seeing both men near the elevators 50 -60 seconds after the shooting.
Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley
There's no need to "suppose" any such thing.
They are NOT Shelley and Lovelady.
So many people have bought into a single, clearly faked image but this has led them to completely disregard the testimonial evidence and start creating their own sequence of events, not supported by any evidence. In fact, utterly refuted by the testimonial evidence.
The crux of the matter is the interaction of Shelley and Lovelady with Gloria Calvery.
This interaction must occur before we see 'Shelley and Lovelady' on he Elm St ext. in Darnell.
But this image is taken around 25 seconds after the shooting and the two men are already well down the street, making it impossible for them to have already had the interaction with Gloria on the front steps (both men are unequivocal about this point in their WC testimonies).
In order to overcome this insurmountable problem, people like Tom and Lance have started peddling the idea that BOTH Lovelady and Shelley raced across the street and met Gloria coming the other way at the "little, old island" dividing the two Elm Streets.
This is a fabrication based on zero evidence created because of their unwavering belief in the image Bart Kamp sharpened up.
They never thought to question this image even though the identification is refuted by the testimonial evidence.
So they've made up something new and once that happens any realistic debate ends.
There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext. They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot. And we also need to consider that these 2 guys are no Phi Beta Cappa's. Their WC Q/A permitted the WC attorney to deeply probe their actions that day.
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There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext. They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot. And we also need to consider that these 2 guys are no Phi Betta Cappa's. Their WC Q/A permitted the WC attorney to deeply probe their actions that day.
Since I am a Phi Beta Kappa, I would simply point out the correct spelling.
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Since I am a Phi Beta Kappa, I would simply point out the correct spelling.
Corrected for the record.
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[...]
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK, or do you think it was an evil, evil conspiracy by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil FBI, the evil, evil Secret Service, the evil, evil Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?
-- Tom
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Like Dan pointed out, we don’t really know for certain if Truly Identified Lovelady and Shelley as TSBD employees to Baker or not.
However, it seems logical imo, that if those 2 men were NOT known by Truly that he would have immediately wanted to know who they were and what they were doing in the building loitering around.by those elevators only 70 secs after the shots had been fired.
And at this 70 sec post shots interval, this would be the more probable time imo to have requested Lovelady and Shelley to “guard “ the elevators .
Otherwise it’s not until at least 5-6 minutes after the shooting when Truly and Baker would have seen Lovelady again because they were on the roof of TSBD for at least 5 minutes before they came back DOWN to the 4th floor using the EAST elevator. This is therefore not likely the interval that Dorothy Garner would have seen Baker /Truly and described as seeing them coming up the staircase.
So a reasonable speculation here is that the WC decided to purposely ignore any persons whom would cause a problem for the WC timeline for Oswald Running down stairs scenario,
So just as Truly and Baker may have been “advised” to avoid naming Lovelady and Shelley at the rear elevators, likewise they might have been told not to mention seeing Dorothy Garner on the 4th floor when B/T arrived , (using the rear staircase) just after they had seen Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom at approx 90 secs post shots.
So what we have here is a pattern by the WC that seems consistently to be avoiding details relating to the 2 white men by the freight elevators, the 2 girls on the stairs, Adams/Stiles) and the Lady In Waiting , Dorothy Garner) waiting by the 4th floor west window next to the rear staircase after she had followed behind A/S “almost immediately” after they left the 4th floor office.
Here is a short list of what seem to be circumstantial oddities that suggest a pattern of avoidance , obfuscation and or modification of witness statements by the WC whenever those might cause conflict with the Oswald staircase descent timeline:
1. Bakers WC brief mention of the 2 men, not further questioned by WC regarding the identity of the 2 men near the rear elevators at approx 70 sec post shots.
2.No further WC questioning of Truly as to the identity of the 2 men.
3 Alterations of Adam’s WC statements ( by her claim ) regarding seeing Lovelady/Shelley and the timing of her descent to 1st floor.
4. Only a brief reference (Belin memo) to Dorothy Garners statement of seeing Baker and Truly coming up to the 4th floor after she had seen Adams and Stiles go down. No further questioning from the WC of Garner on this detail.
5. Carolyn Arnold’s sighting Oswald SEATED in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 at the same time that Arnold Rowland saw a man with rifle in hand , standing at the SW window 6th floor. Carolyn Arnold not called to testify, while WC attempted to discredit Arnold Rowland.
6. Will Fritz failure to record interviews with Oswald, resorting instead to scribbled notes. Therefore the reference to Oswald sighting specifically the 2 “negro” James Jarman and Harold Norman could never be known certainly what exactly Oswald had said regarding the 2 men or why he had named them.
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My questions are only for the "current" record.
Your questions reveal that you are unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
Your insinuation, that my arguments have changed during the course of this thread, reveals that you are completely unfamiliar with the contents of this thread.
You are only interested in your own posts, which always have a 'disconnected' feeling about them because you are not actually interested in the topic of whatever thread you are posting on. You are just looking for an opportunity to post about your own "current" theory - STAY TUNED.
And then there is your buying into the current timelines assigned to Shelley, Lovelady, and Officer Baker.
I'm not "buying into" anything.
If you were familiar with the contents of this thread you would see that I am presenting my own arguments and timeline. Although I'm not the first, I'm actually doing something quite novel - I'm taking Vicki Adams at her word. That she did race down from the 4th floor within seconds of the shooting and that she did, indeed, see Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators when she got down to the first floor and that she did all this before Baker and Truly reached the same area (Baker then reporting seeing two white men in this area - Shelley and Lovelady).
Nearly everyone, on both sides of the fence, take the word of Shelley and Lovelady about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. But it is the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate that these two men are lying in their various statements about their movements.
You claim that Shelley & Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, though there is nothing to support that
This statement demonstrates your ignorance regarding the contents of this thread.
I don't know how many times I've made the point that the only account of their movements given by these two men that can be considered reliable are the affidavits they gave a couple of hours after the shooting.
These are their very first statements given to law enforcement.
In the affidavits Shelley is on the front steps, he runs across the street and back, the re-enters the building. Lovelady is stood on the front steps and doesn't even leave the steps before re-entering the building. No walking along the Elm St ext., no hanging around the railroad yard, no re-entering the building through the west door.
Their affidavits are very strong evidence supporting a re-entry through the front doors.
As is the tightness of the timeline in terms of Vicki Adams seeing both men near the elevators 50 -60 seconds after the shooting.
Suppose those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Extension were actually Lovelady & Shelley
There's no need to "suppose" any such thing.
They are NOT Shelley and Lovelady.
So many people have bought into a single, clearly faked image but this has led them to completely disregard the testimonial evidence and start creating their own sequence of events, not supported by any evidence. In fact, utterly refuted by the testimonial evidence.
The crux of the matter is the interaction of Shelley and Lovelady with Gloria Calvery.
This interaction must occur before we see 'Shelley and Lovelady' on he Elm St ext. in Darnell.
But this image is taken around 25 seconds after the shooting and the two men are already well down the street, making it impossible for them to have already had the interaction with Gloria on the front steps (both men are unequivocal about this point in their WC testimonies).
In order to overcome this insurmountable problem, people like Tom and Lance have started peddling the idea that BOTH Lovelady and Shelley raced across the street and met Gloria coming the other way at the "little, old island" dividing the two Elm Streets.
This is a fabrication based on zero evidence created because of their unwavering belief in the image Bart Kamp sharpened up.
They never thought to question this image even though the identification is refuted by the testimonial evidence.
So they've made up something new and once that happens any realistic debate ends.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Are you saying the that the only reason you started this thread was to show that Shelley and Lovelady told fibs?
-- Tom
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Shelley and Lovelady were truthful in the very first statements they gave but were quickly making up ever-changing stories until the version they settled on for the Warren Commission Sham.
If Oswald reached the second-floor lunchroom about 75 seconds after the final shot, and if Truly and Baker started climbing the stairs about 45 seconds after the final shot, and if Adams and Styles started descending the stairs about 45 seconds after the final shot, how does Shelley's and Lovelady's changing their story help "The Sham Warren Commission" cover up the evil, evil CIA's or the evil, evil FBI's or the evil, evil Secret Service's, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank's] assassination of JFK?
In other words, if Oswald, Truly and Baker were inside the second-floor lunchroom's "vestibule" and therefore out of Adams' and Styles' sight while Adams and Styles were quickly transiting a corner of the second floor from one stairwell to another, how would Shelley's and Lovelady's saying they visited the railway yard / parking lot before entering the TSBD incriminate Oswald?
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There's no way Officer Baker is climbing that stairwell "about" 45 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's Flash Gordon material. Probably closer to 1:30+. Baker had no idea where he was going inside the TSBD and he and Truly even screwed around getting through a door and then messing around with the elevator too. Baker was Not inside the TSBD 30 seconds after the Kill Shot either. It took him that long to turn the Elm St. corner, stop his motorcycle at the curb, and then rack it. Baker even admits to almost dumping the motorcycle due to the wind as he was slowly turning onto Houston. Tick/Tock, Tick/Tock! You guys have been bamboozled by the WC and to this day you merely echo their bogus timelines. Think Baker's journey through. Read his WC Testimony. He was Not sure that shots had been fired from the TSBD. And he did Not see pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD. That's even more WC BS:. And Baker was bullied/coached during his WC dress rehearsal runs. They made it clear what they wanted/expected.
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There's no way Officer Baker is climbing that stairwell "about" 45 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's Flash Gordon material. Probably closer to 1:30+. Baker had no idea where he was going inside the TSBD and he and Truly even screwed around getting through a door and then messing around with the elevator too. Baker was Not inside the TSBD 30 seconds after the Kill Shot either. It took him that long to turn the Elm St. corner, stop his motorcycle at the curb, and then rack it. Baker even admits to almost dumping the motorcycle due to the wind as he was slowly turning onto Houston. Tick/Tock, Tick/Tock! You guys have been bamboozled by the WC and to this day you merely echo their bogus timelines. Think Baker's journey through. Read his WC Testimony. He was Not sure that shots had been fired from the TSBD. And he did Not see pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD. That's even more WC BS:. And Baker was bullied/coached during his WC dress rehearsal runs. They made it clear what they wanted/expected.
Dear Comrade Storing,
How about 60 seconds?
Does that work for you?
GROK:
For Oswald, Truly, and Baker to be in the second-floor lunchroom vestibule while Adams and Styles are transiting the second-floor corner, given Truly and Baker start ascending 60 seconds after the final shot and Oswald takes 30 seconds on the stairs:
Oswald starts descending 24 seconds after the final shot.
Adams and Styles start descending 42 seconds after the final shot.
This ensures convergence at 72 seconds after the final shot, with Oswald on the stairs for 30 seconds.
-- Tom
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How about actually reading what I posted?
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How about actually reading what I posted?
Dear Comrade Storing,
Even though Baker and Truly can be seen very near the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell, you don't think they could have started going up the stairs about 35 seconds later?
-- Tom
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The power of the Ring is turning you into Gollum, Mr Frodo. Better give it up.
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The power of the Ring is turning you into Gollum, Mr Frodo. Better give it up.
Is that the best you've got, Comrade Storing?
It's a doggone shame you don't want to answer my question.
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I should have the remaining peer review in next week. This process takes time due to the subject matter being NEW and involves corroborating tentacles. No Spoilers ...................... STAY TUNED ..................................
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I should have the remaining peer review in next week. This process takes time due to the subject matter being NEW and involves corroborating tentacles. No Spoilers ...................... STAY TUNED ..................................
Having gone through the often-unpleasant peer review process for law review articles, it doesn't mean asking three other True Believers "So whaddya think?" Review is solicited by an editor from qualified reviewers who are and remain anonymous to the author. I realize this isn't realistic for whatever you're talking about, but "Dan, Michael and Martin don't think I'm crazy" is not peer review. We will indeed STAY TUNED, just as we've been STAYING TUNED for the bombshells you promised months ago, but hopefully your peer review is something more than "my fellow True Believers like it."
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Having gone through the often-unpleasant peer review process for law review articles, it doesn't mean asking three other True Believers "So whaddya think?" Review is solicited by an editor from qualified reviewers who are and remain anonymous to the author. I realize this isn't realistic for whatever you're talking about, but "Dan, Michael and Martin don't think I'm crazy" is not peer review. We will indeed STAY TUNED, just as we've been STAYING TUNED for the bombshells you promised months ago, but hopefully your peer review is something more than "my fellow True Believers like it."
Instead of welcoming new information, you instead want to poison the well. You are jaded. Why would anyone take your opinion seriously when you render judgement on something you have yet to see? You are an extremely sad cat.
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There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext. They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot. And we also need to consider that these 2 guys are no Phi Beta Cappa's. Their WC Q/A permitted the WC attorney to deeply probe their actions that day.
There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext.
Of course the affidavits don't rule out anything.
I'm not arguing that they do.
All I'm doing is presenting what they ACTUALLY DO SAY.
Not what they don't say.
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the street and returns.
Lovelady never moves from the steps.
Both men re-enter the building.
But you are free to add whatever you want to their affidavits.
But which version of their lies are you going to add?
Lovelady tells the FBI that he and Shelley immediately raced to the area where the limo stopped before speeding away. NOT THE RAILROAD YARD. Is this what you are going to add?
Or maybe you could add that, after meeting Gloria across the street, Shelley then testifies that he stayed on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria ran up to where he was. Are you going to add this contradiction?
Or maybe you could add the version where they accompany police officers along the extension (not in Darnell!) and stay in the railroad yards for TEN MINUTES. The affidavits don't rule this out, so maybe you could add that.
Or maybe add Lovelady's HSCA revelation - that he didn't re-enter the building for 20 minutes!!
And while you're at it, add Shelley's report of seeing Truly and Baker still outside the building more than 3 minutes after the assassination OR the version he told George and Patricia Nash, where Truly and Baker were still outside the building FIVE TO SIX MINUTES after the assassination!
You are quite correct, their affidavits don't rule out any of these lies.
They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot.
'Went to railroad yard'.
Four words.
That's all either man had to write, so your argument, that there wasn't enough room to fit all this in, doesn't really hold water.
The "minutia of their itinerary"??
Shelley mentions running across the street but not his more substantial trip along to the railroad yard.
Why?
He then goes on to clarify Gloria's name. Isn't that minutia?
He went back into the building to phone his wife. Isn't that minutia?
He wanted to tell her what happened. Isn't that minutia?
He was told to watch the elevators then told Jack Dougherty to look after them. Minutia?
As for Lovelady, his trip to the railroad yard is ALL OF HIS ITINERARY before re-entering the building.
I reject your arguments, that there wasn't enough space to write down what they did or that it was "minutia".
In your version of events BOTH MEN neglect to mention the railroad yard.
I don't buy it.
Their affidavits reveal their true movements before re-entering the building.
They never waited on the steps for 3 minutes before Gloria came up or ran to the area where the limo stopped or accompanied police officers or stayed outside for five, ten, twenty minutes or any other contradictory version of events they went on to tell.
They were approaching the area near the elevators 50 to 60 seconds after the shots.
Adams saw them, she actually called out to them, as she raced by on her way out of the back door.
Baker and Truly arrived on the scene 60 to 70 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles were already out the back of the building. Lovelady and Shelley had split up, but were still in that area.
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Instead of welcoming new information, you instead want to poison the well. You are jaded. Why would anyone take your opinion seriously when you render judgement on something you have yet to see? You are an extremely sad cat.
Oh, I welcome new information! I can barely contain my excitement over the bombshell you promised when I first joined the forum and the bombshells you have promised since. You are the one who keeps using the phrase "peer review." I merely point out that having three fellow True Believers agree with you is not peer review. Indeed, one of my most frequent challenges to CTers at the Other Forum was to submit their bombshell medical, ballistics and forensic claims to ACTUAL peer review. Never happens, never will.
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There is nothing in either Shelley or Lovelady's affidavits that rules out their moving down the Elm St Ext.
Of course the affidavits don't rule out anything.
I'm not arguing that they do.
All I'm doing is presenting what they ACTUALLY DO SAY.
Not what they don't say.
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps when the shots are fired.
Shelley runs across the street and returns.
Lovelady never moves from the steps.
Both men re-enter the building.
But you are free to add whatever you want to their affidavits.
But which version of their lies are you going to add?
Lovelady tells the FBI that he and Shelley immediately raced to the area where the limo stopped before speeding away. NOT THE RAILROAD YARD. Is this what you are going to add?
Or maybe you could add that, after meeting Gloria across the street, Shelley then testifies that he stayed on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria ran up to where he was. Are you going to add this contradiction?
Or maybe you could add the version where they accompany police officers along the extension (not in Darnell!) and stay in the railroad yards for TEN MINUTES. The affidavits don't rule this out, so maybe you could add that.
Or maybe add Lovelady's HSCA revelation - that he didn't re-enter the building for 20 minutes!!
And while you're at it, add Shelley's report of seeing Truly and Baker still outside the building more than 3 minutes after the assassination OR the version he told George and Patricia Nash, where Truly and Baker were still outside the building FIVE TO SIX MINUTES after the assassination!
You are quite correct, their affidavits don't rule out any of these lies.
They each filed only a 1 page "affidavit". Within this very confined space, they simply did not get into the minutia of their itinerary post kill shot.
'Went to railroad yard'.
Four words.
That's all either man had to write, so your argument, that there wasn't enough room to fit all this in, doesn't really hold water.
The "minutia of their itinerary"??
Shelley mentions running across the street but not his more substantial trip along to the railroad yard.
Why?
He then goes on to clarify Gloria's name. Isn't that minutia?
He went back into the building to phone his wife. Isn't that minutia?
He wanted to tell her what happened. Isn't that minutia?
He was told to watch the elevators then told Jack Dougherty to look after them. Minutia?
As for Lovelady, his trip to the railroad yard is ALL OF HIS ITINERARY before re-entering the building.
I reject your arguments, that there wasn't enough space to write down what they did or that it was "minutia".
In your version of events BOTH MEN neglect to mention the railroad yard.
I don't buy it.
Their affidavits reveal their true movements before re-entering the building.
They never waited on the steps for 3 minutes before Gloria came up or ran to the area where the limo stopped or accompanied police officers or stayed outside for five, ten, twenty minutes or any other contradictory version of events they went on to tell.
They were approaching the area near the elevators 50 to 60 seconds after the shots.
Adams saw them, she actually called out to them, as she raced by on her way out of the back door.
Baker and Truly arrived on the scene 60 to 70 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles were already out the back of the building. Lovelady and Shelley had split up, but were still in that area.
"What they DO Say"? Where do they say they went into the TSBD through the front door? They don't. YOU Do. Anyway, we both are in agreement that the assassination was not the sole work of Oswald. With that in mind ............................. STAY TUNED ................................
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"What they DO Say"? Where do they say they went into the TSBD through the front door? They don't. YOU Do. Anyway, we both are in agreement that the assassination was not the sole work of Oswald. With that in mind ............................. STAY TUNED ................................
This is another gross misrepresentation.
I have never claimed that it states they re-entered through the front door in their affidavits.
Your willingness to deal in these falsehoods, rather than engage in debate, says a lot about you.
Talking about dealing in falsehoods...what new buffoonery are you about to launch into?
You really should not have used the phrase 'peer review', that is going to come back to haunt you in a very large way.
Remember - your opinion is not evidence.
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This is another gross misrepresentation.
I have never claimed that it states they re-entered through the front door in their affidavits.
Your willingness to deal in these falsehoods, rather than engage in debate, says a lot about you.
Talking about dealing in falsehoods...what new buffoonery are you about to launch into?
You really should not have used the phrase 'peer review', that is going to come back to haunt you in a very large way.
Remember - your opinion is not evidence.
When you stop worrying about suffering the slings and arrows around here, you will move forward with your JFK Assassination research. "To thine own self be true", is a time tested steadfast shield.
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I should have the remaining peer review in next week. This process takes time due to the subject matter being NEW and involves corroborating tentacles. No Spoilers ...................... STAY TUNED ..................................
Why don't you want Gloria Calvery on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
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Why don't you want Gloria Calvery on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot?
You need to think everything through. How long after the Kill Shot do you believe: (1) Officer Baker was rounding that turn onto Elm St? (2) parking/racking his motorcycle at the Curb? and, (3) running up the sidewalk toward the TSBD? Do you still wanna put Calvery standing on the TSBD Steps only 25 seconds after the kill shot? Officer Baker is supposed to be physically inside the TSBD 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. Based on your Calvery timeline, she and Baker were literally on a Collision course. Yet, you have placed Calvery standing stock still at the TSBD Steps on the Couch/Darnell Films 25 seconds after the Kill Shot. Either your Calvery timeline is wrong or the timelines of the Couch & Darnell Films/Baker are wrong. There are many dependent links in this chain that you have failed to consider.
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Officer Baker is supposed to be physically inside the TSBD 30 seconds after the Kill Shot.
Dear Comrade Storing,
How soon after the final shot do you want Baker inside the TSBD front door?
40 seconds?
50 seconds?
60 seconds?
minute-and-a-half?
[fill in the blank]?
What works best with your grandiose HUGE GATES - OFFICER SMITH IMPERSONATOR!!! JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory?
-- Tom
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You want to only counter punch and that serves no purpose with respect to solving this case. Do your research and then give some serious thought to what you have found.
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You want to only counter punch and that serves no purpose with respect to solving this case. Do your research and then give some serious thought to what you have found.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Why are you so defensive and so evasive in your answers?
Hint: The JFKA case was solved a long time ago; no more "research" is required -- except, of course, to determine how your beloved KGB* "made hay" from the assassination -- and many other problems in America -- and was eventually able to install The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx") as our "president."
Why are you afraid to say you think Officer Baker entered the TSBD three minutes (or some-such thing) after the final shot?
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Why are you so defensive and so evasive in your answers?
Hint: The JFKA case was solved a long time ago; no more "research" is required -- except, of course, to determine how your beloved KGB* "made hay" from the assassination -- and many other problems in America -- and was eventually able to install The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx") as our "president."
Why are you afraid to say you think Officer Baker entered the TSBD three minutes (or some-such thing) after the final shot?
-- Tom
You claim Calvery is on the Couch/Darnell Films standing at the bottom of the TSBD Steps. Couch gave WC testimony. Bone up on that and then get back to me. It is obvious that you currently lack the necessary foundation to be making ID's and assigning time lines. You gotta crawl before you can walk.
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You claim Calvery is on the Couch/Darnell Films standing at the bottom of the TSBD Steps. Couch gave WC testimony. Bone up on that and then get back to me.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you mean this part?
Mr. BELIN - Where was the car when you saw the rifle being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH - I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation, and you saw what you just related?
Mr. COUCH - Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And - uh - you can see from my film that we were just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn. And then I took pictures of - uh -a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.
Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?
Mr. COUCH - Not of the south side at the moment. After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh - we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the - I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the - uh - at the very bottom of Elm Street.
Do you not think what Couch said approximates what we see in his film?
-- Tom
PS Here, this might help you.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
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You're funny and lost at the same time. For starters, you should be asking yourself why you are seeing a Couch Still Frame in Color when the Couch Film was shot in B/W. Like I said, you gotta crawl before you can walk. I'm not being mean, but you are presently in way over your head. Take the time and do some serious JFK Assassination research. This will provide you with a broad foundation. You can then build upon that.
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You should be asking yourself why you are seeing a Couch Still Frame in Color when the Couch Film was shot in B/W.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Is there anything that the evil, evil CIA didn't alter?
-- Tom
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(https://i.postimg.cc/4N3BMGZ4/Hughestasbdsteps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
The guy walking up the steps wearing light-colored pants and the brown shirt is Bonnie Ray Williams. He testified to the Warren Commission that he came down from the fifth floor about 15 minutes after the assassination, and that he and some others were then taken by car to the courthouse to write up affidavits. Therefore, it would seem that the above scene (with Lovelady smoking a cigarette on the steps) was filmed by Robert Hughes significantly more than 30 minutes after the assassination.
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
The guy walking up the steps wearing light-colored pants and the brown shirt is Bonnie Ray Williams. He testified to the Warren Commission that he came down from the fifth floor about 15 minutes after the assassination, and that he and some others were then taken by car to the courthouse to write up affidavits. Therefore, it would seem that the above scene (with Lovelady smoking a cigarette on the steps) was filmed by Robert Hughes significantly more than 30 minutes after the assassination.
-- Tom
You're ID'ing someone from behind based on the color of their slacks? Seriously? This is just like ID'ing Calvery from behind on the TSBD Steps. Both ID's are pure guesswork. Also, who has ever claimed that Hughes was filming, "....significantly more than 30 minutes after the assassination"? (Other than yourself). Making stuff up will not solve this case.
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You're ID'ing someone from behind based on the color of their slacks? Seriously? This is just like ID'ing Calvery from behind on the TSBD Steps. Both ID's are pure guesswork. Also, who has ever claimed that Hughes was filming, "....significantly more than 30 minutes after the assassination"? (Other than yourself). Making stuff up will not solve this case.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Why don't you watch the clip?
If you do, you'll see his face.
Why would he be ascending the steps at that point in time if he didn't work in the TSBD?
You've seen the black-and-white photos showing Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce and Willaim Shelley being escorted to a car by a policeman I mean a cop, haven't you?
Go look at those photos, again, and notice this time the clothes he was wearing that day.
D'oh!
-- Tom
https://www.jfk.org/collections-archive/8mm-film-can-top-and-base-reel-2/
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Why don't you watch the clip?
If you do, you'll see his face.
Why would he be ascending the steps at that point in time if he didn't work in the TSBD?
You've seen the black-and-white photos showing Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce and Willaim Shelley being escorted to a car by a policeman I mean a cop, haven't you?
Go look at those photos, again, and notice this time the clothes he was wearing that day.
D'oh!
-- Tom
Your timeline is Wrong. Try researching the images. "Pictures Of The Pain" is regarded as the Bible in this area. That evidence source makes you look bad. Do the work.
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Your timeline is Wrong. Try researching the images. "Pictures Of The Pain" is regarded as the Bible in this area. That evidence source makes you look bad. Do the work.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Bonnie Ray Williams, under oath, told the Warren Commission that he came down to the first floor about fifteen minutes after the assassination, and that he didn't go outside because "they weren't letting people out of the building."
He says that he and some others were taken to "the courthouse, I think" (Mr. Ball said it was the Police Department) to "fill out some affidavits and other things."
In some black-and-white photos, we can see Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, and William Shelley being escorted by a policeman I mean by a cop to a car parked on Elm Street so that they can be taken to "the courthouse, I think" (i.e., the Police Department at 106 South Harwood Street, about twelve blocks from Dealey Plaza).
Note that Williams was wearing light-colored pants and a dark-colored long-sleeved shirt that day.
D'oh!
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
The guy walking up the steps wearing light-colored pants and the brown shirt is Bonnie Ray Williams. He testified to the Warren Commission that he came down from the fifth floor about 15 minutes after the assassination, and that he and some others were then taken by car to the courthouse to write up affidavits. Therefore, it would seem that the above scene (with Lovelady smoking a cigarette on the steps) was filmed by Robert Hughes significantly more than 30 minutes after the assassination.
-- Tom
Just to put this in some kind of context.
You've taken a picture I posted ONE MONTH AGO and have felt the need to make this point about it representing the moment Bonnie Ray Williams was taken to the courthouse.
This is from a post 106 REPLIES AGO.
This is the only detail you feel comfortable criticizing?
You've trawled through the thread and this is the only point you can make?
I suppose it's a testimony to how solid the arguments are that I've put forward in this thread.
Now...as for the point you are making...
You're wrong.
You've stuck your head above the parapet over this minute detail and you're wrong.
The image from the Hughes film is showing the moment Bonnie Ray, Junior Jarman and Hank Norman run outside after reaching the first floor and are pointed out by Brennan as being the guys he saw on the fifth floor. They are then called back inside the building.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmrTRF5k/Brennanin-Hughes.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This image is taken approximately 10 - 15 minutes after the shooting.
In the image showing Williams, Arce and Shelley being taken to the police car the area around the front steps has been completely cleared and is from later on that day.
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The image from the Hughes film is showing the moment Bonnie Ray, Junior Jarman and Hank Norman run outside after reaching the first floor and are pointed out by Brennan as being the guys he saw on the fifth floor. They are then called back inside the building.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmrTRF5k/Brennanin-Hughes.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This image is taken approximately 10 - 15 minutes after the shooting.
In the image showing Williams, Arce and Shelley being taken to the police car the area around the front steps has been completely cleared and is from later on that day.
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Okay.
And this proves what?
That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Okay.
And this proves what?
That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?
-- Comrade Pinko Jerkov
And this proves what?
All it proves is that you don't really understand what's going on, Pinko.
You're like so many JFKA researchers, running around the hills chasing the CIA, the KGB, the mafia etc., but you don't really know what's happening on the ground. You're unaware of the importance of some basic facts because you've already raced ahead to your conclusion. It's why you have to fabricate certain scenarios.
That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?
Shelley and Lovelady were making their way towards the back of the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting and were seen there by Vicki Adams as she and Sandra Styles raced towards the loading dock door. They were also seen there, seconds later, by Baker when he arrived at the area near the elevators.
After a few false starts, Shelley and Lovelady finally settle on the lie that, after the shooting, they waited for 3 minutes on the steps, moved across to the "little, old island", made there way along the Elm Street Ext., hung around the railroad yards and re-entered the building through the west door. The only reason to tell these lies is to cover up their real movements. The only reason to cover up their real movements is because they are trying to hide whatever they were really up to.
The question is - what were they up to?
What were they covering up?
What is there, towards the back of the first floor, that could be so important?
And how did they get away with telling these ridiculously obvious lies to the Warren Commission Sham?
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And this proves what?
That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?
Shelley and Lovelady were making their way towards the back of the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting and were seen there by Vicki Adams as she and Sandra Styles raced towards the loading dock door. They were also seen there, seconds later, by Baker when he arrived at the area near the elevators.
After a few false starts, Shelley and Lovelady finally settle on the lie that, after the shooting, they waited for 3 minutes on the steps, moved across to the "little, old island", made there [sic] way along the Elm Street Ext., hung around the railroad yards and re-entered the building through the west door. The only reason to tell these lies is to cover up their real movements. The only reason to cover up their real movements is because they are trying to hide whatever they were really up to.
The question is - what were they up to?
What were they covering up?
What is there, towards the back of the first floor, that could be so important?
And how did they get away with telling these ridiculously obvious lies to the Warren Commission Sham?
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Does your scenario somehow preclude Baker's, Truly's and Oswald's being in the 2nd-floor lunchroom "vestibule" while Adams and Styles were quickly traversing a corner of the second floor from one stairwell to another?
Spell it out for me.
-- Tom
-
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
Does your scenario somehow preclude Baker's, Truly's and Oswald's being in the 2nd-floor lunchroom "vestibule" while Adams and Styles were quickly traversing a corner of the second floor from one stairwell to another?
Spell it out for me.
-- Comrade Pinko Jerkov
I'm not sure if it does preclude it, Pinko.
This is the way I look at it -
Adams is consistent that she set off within seconds of the shooting. She specifically states that she had decided to race downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass.
This would have her in motion within 10 seconds of the shooting.
For me, this is confirmed by the Dillard photo which shows the fourth floor open window which Adams, Styles and Dorman were positioned in front of during the motorcade. The Dillard pic is taken around 10 - 15 seconds after the shooting and shows an empty window, which is what we would expect if Adams and Styles had already taken off.
So, I reckon they were at the head of the stairs on the fourth floor no later than 20 seconds after the shooting and they ran all the way to the first floor.
Now let's think about the shooter.
Let's imagine it is Oswald and that he makes his way downstairs after the shooting (not that there is a shred of evidence that this actually happened).
According to Brennan, in "Eyewitness To History", the shooter was still at the SN window after the limo had reached the underpass. This delay receives support from Hank Norman, a few feet below the shooter, who heard the shells hitting the floor but didn't hear the sound of heavy Oxford work shoes on the wooden floor just above his head. Because the shooter was just stood there, not moving.
In this scenario, it would be impossible for Oswald to reach the second floor lunchroom before Adams and Styles passed by.
Even if the shooter left his position the instant he finished shooting, and was running, he still wouldn't have made it to the second floor before Adams.
Also, Dorothy Garner's statements make it clear Adams descended the back stairs a couple of minutes BEFORE Baker and Truly came up the same stairs. This means Oswald would have to make it down the stairs BEFORE Adams reached them and I just can't see a scenario where that happens without ignoring lots of witness evidence and physical evidence such as the Dillard pic.
That said, I've no doubt some really unlikely yet not impossible scenario can be created to make it so Truly and Baker didn't hear the two women clattering along a wooden floor in 3 inch high heels a few feet away.
If anyone can do it, you can Comrade.
-
ALL of this speculation is set in motion with the assumption that the 2 Guys that Officer Baker saw near the elevator were Lovelady & Shelley. To this day, we do KNOW who these 2 people were. And think about the timelines. Officer Baker is supposed to be inside the TSBD in 30 seconds. How long do you believe it took Calvery to get back to the TSBD, talk with Shelley, and then for Shelley and Lovelady to enter the front door of the TSBD? This had to take at least 30 seconds. If Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, and then traveled back to the freight elevators, they would be traveling the same diagonal route across the TSBD 1st Floor that Baker & Truly used. Yet, Shelley and Lovelady are allegedly already in place, laying around the freight elevators, when Officer Baker and Roy Truly reached these same freight elevators. How can this be? In order for ALL of this to happen, that 30 second timeline of Baker/Truly entering the TSBD has to be extended. Otherwise, these 4 people would have their own Conga Line going as they ALL diagonally crossed the TSBD 1st floor.
-
ALL of this speculation is set in motion with the assumption that the 2 Guys that Officer Baker saw near the elevator were Lovelady & Shelley. To this day, we do KNOW who these 2 people were. And think about the timelines. Officer Baker is supposed to be inside the TSBD in 30 seconds. How long do you believe it took Calvery to get back to the TSBD, talk with Shelley, and then for Shelley and Lovelady to enter the front door of the TSBD? This had to take at least 30 seconds. If Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, and then traveled back to the freight elevators, they would be traveling the same diagonal route across the TSBD 1st Floor that Baker & Truly used. Yet, Shelley and Lovelady are allegedly already in place, laying around the freight elevators, when Officer Baker and Roy Truly reached these same freight elevators. How can this be? In order for ALL of this to happen, that 30 second timeline of Baker/Truly entering the TSBD has to be extended. Otherwise, these 4 people would have their own Conga Line going as they ALL diagonally crossed the TSBD 1st floor.
ALL of this speculation is set in motion with the assumption that the 2 Guys that Officer Baker saw near the elevator were Lovelady & Shelley.
No, it's not.
This reflects your inability to appreciate the full extent of the evidence presented.
You are correct that the Shelley/Lovelady identification of the two white men Baker sees near the elevators is an assumption based on the positive identification made by Vicki Adams.
Adams sees Lovelady and Shelley in the area near the elevators seconds before Baker arrives on the scene. It is, therefore, a safe assumption that these two white men are Shelley and Lovelady.
I hope that's cleared up your fundamental misunderstanding of the argument I'm presenting.
How long do you believe it took Calvery to get back to the TSBD, talk with Shelley, and then for Shelley and Lovelady to enter the front door of the TSBD? This had to take at least 30 seconds
I think that's a fair assessment.
Let's have Shelley and Lovelady entering the front door of the TSBD around 30 seconds after the shooting.
Let's add another 20 seconds for them to make their way directly towards the back of the first floor.
Does that seem fair enough?
If Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, and then traveled back to the freight elevators, they would be traveling the same diagonal route across the TSBD 1st Floor that Baker & Truly used. Yet, Shelley and Lovelady are allegedly already in place, laying around the freight elevators, when Officer Baker and Roy Truly reached these same freight elevators. How can this be? In order for ALL of this to happen, that 30 second timeline of Baker/Truly entering the TSBD has to be extended. Otherwise, these 4 people would have their own Conga Line going as they ALL diagonally crossed the TSBD 1st floor.
How can this be?
How can Shelley and Lovelady already be at the elevators by the time Baker and Truly arrive in the same area?
When Baker made his way into the lobby he was followed by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Baker makes the point that people were entering as he entered.
As Truly and Baker had their interaction, Shelley and Lovelady made their way directly towards the elevators.
Truly and Baker followed a few seconds later.
It's really not difficult to understand and it doesn't require any Magical Thinking.
Here's a more detailed breakdown if it helps:
Last shot
0 - 10 seconds
Gloria is racing towards the TSBD building. Shelley runs across to the 'island'. Lovelady stays put. Baker is on his bike heading for the TSBD building. Adams is in motion
10 - 20 seconds
Gloria meets Shelley at the island and makes her way to the front steps followed by Shelley. Baker pulls up and dismounts. Lovelady stays put as Gloria runs towards him. Adams reaches the top of the stairs.
20 - 30 seconds
Baker races past Truly and makes his way up the front steps. As he enters the lobby he is followed by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Adams racing down stairs.
30 - 40 seconds
Baker and Truly have their interaction in the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady make their way directly through the lobby and start to cross the first floor. Adams is still on the stairs.
40 - 50 seconds
Shelley and Lovelady are near the elevators. Adams races past them and calls out about the President before leaving through the back door. Truly and Baker have just entered the first floor from the lobby.
50 - 60 seconds
Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators. Shelley and Lovelady have split up and are trying to act as if nothing is happening. Adams and Styles are outside, racing towards the railroad tracks.
-
You have Baker/Truly following Lovelady/Shelley, "a few seconds later"? So how does Baker/Truly NOT see Lovelady/Shelley directly in front of them as all of these people are simultaneously moving diagonally across the LARGE TSBD 1st floor? Also, why would Lovelady/Shelley want to go to the freight elevators and then just lay around there? That area of the 1st floor is an absolute cesspool. My opinion is that Adams/Styles got their timeline screwed up. They probably see Shelley/Lovelady knocking around the TSBD from time-to-time and just got confused as to exactly when they saw them. It's a leap putting Shelley/Lovelady laying around the freight elevator within a minute after the Kill Shot. They literally have no reason to be there at that point in time. None.
-
You have Baker/Truly following Lovelady/Shelley, "a few seconds later"? So how does Baker/Truly NOT see Lovelady/Shelley directly in front of them as all of these people are simultaneously moving diagonally across the LARGE TSBD 1st floor? Also, why would Lovelady/Shelley want to go to the freight elevators and then just lay around there? That area of the 1st floor is an absolute cesspool. My opinion is that Adams/Styles got their timeline screwed up. They probably see Shelley/Lovelady knocking around the TSBD from time-to-time and just got confused as to exactly when they saw them. It's a leap putting Shelley/Lovelady laying around the freight elevator within a minute after the Kill Shot. They literally have no reason to be there at that point in time. None.
Your only counter-argument is that Baker should have seen Shelley and Lovelady ahead of him??
You seem to imagine that the first floor is a wide open, empty space.
It's nothing of the sort.
You also seem to imagine that everyone travelled in the same straight, diagonal line that led directly from the entrance of the first floor to the elevators. (What makes you think they travelled in a diagonal line anyway?)
I can't help it if you have no idea how cluttered this space was.
At least you've grasped the concept that Shelley and Lovelady could just move into this space while Baker and Truly were interacting in the lobby.
As I said, it's not a difficult concept to grasp.
Your counter-argument is really weak which is very telling.
You are having a problem visualising what is happening because you imagine the first floor to be empty. Once you grasp how cluttered it was it might become clear why Baker didn't see Shelley and Lovelady near the back of the first floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfRmcghw/TSBDfirstfloor.png) (https://postimages.org/)
So, that's your main counter-argument dealt with.
What else do you have?
Also, why would Lovelady/Shelley want to go to the freight elevators and then just lay around there?
Lay around there?
What are you talking about?
What are you imagining?
That the first floor is this wide open, empty space with a few hammocks in it?
It's hard to discuss these issues with someone who can't grasp the basic realities of the situation.
What makes it even harder is that you never pay attention to what anyone else is posting.
Look back a few Replies and you'll see I posted this:
The question is - what were they up to?
What were they covering up?
What is there, towards the back of the first floor, that could be so important?
It has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements.
The lied to cover up their real movements.
They lied to cover up the fact that they immediately made their way towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker.
That they lied is not up for debate.
My opinion is that Adams/Styles got their timeline screwed up.
The reason your opinion is wrong is because it is based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.
They literally have no reason to be there at that point in time. None.
You literally have no idea if that is true.
Just because you can't imagine what they are up to doesn't mean anything.
They were witnessed in that area approximately 50 - 60 seconds after the shooting. Just because it's not clear what they were doing there doesn't mean they weren't witnessed there. That would be a crazy way to look at things.
-
This is the story YOU are putting out there. Yet, you provide no reason why Shelley/Lovelady would enter the TSBD via the front door and then walk all the way across the 1st floor to simply hang around that trash piled into the corner of the floor. Their timeline is also an issue. Serious issue. You gotta tick-tock problem getting them all the way back there to possibly be seen by Baker. To me, it just does not work. In order to make this work, you can't have Officer Baker already inside the TSBD only 30 seconds after the Kill Shot.
-
This is the story YOU are putting out there. Yet, you provide no reason why Shelley/Lovelady would enter the TSBD via the front door and then walk all the way across the 1st floor to simply hang around that trash piled into the corner of the floor. Their timeline is also an issue. Serious issue. You gotta tick-tock problem getting them all the way back there to possibly be seen by Baker. To me, it just does not work. In order to make this work, you can't have Officer Baker already inside the TSBD only 30 seconds after the Kill Shot.
You gotta tick-tock problem
;D
So you've dropped your main counter-argument.
A wise move as it was very foolish.
Rather than the usual meaningless statements, why not explain what you mean.
I presented a detailed timeline involving the movements of Baker, Shelley, Lovelady, Adams and Truly.
Let's hear your critique of it.
Shelley and Lovelady were witnessed in the area near the elevators around 50 -60 seconds after the shooting. Around the same time Baker witnessed two white men in the same area. You provide no counter-evidence or counter-arguments. Just your unsupported, unfounded opinion (which you seem to think is enough).
You don't seem to understand that, just because I don't know why they lied to cover up their movements, it doesn't change these facts.
You seem to think that, just because I don't know why they made their way to this area, it means they didn't make their way there. It's a really watery type of non-logic.
Unlike you, I'm not prepared to conjure up some ludicrous explanation for anything anomalous. I know Shelley and Lovelady were near the elevators within 50 - 60 seconds of the shooting.
I know they lied in their WC testimonies about their movements to cover up this fact.
But I don't know what they were up to.
In order to make this work, you can't have Officer Baker already inside the TSBD only 30 seconds after the Kill Shot.
What is this supposed to mean?
As part of your explanation don't forget to include what the Darnell footage shows us and the Baker/Truly time-trials.
Not to mention the statements of Joe Molina and Pauline Sanders, that have Baker and Truly arriving within seconds of the shooting.
Try to make things clear.
No cryptic remarks.
Plain and clear logic with a sprinkling of common sense.
-
In order to make this work, you can't have Officer Baker already inside the TSBD only 30 seconds after the kill shot.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Are you trying to say that Baker's and Truly's entering the TSBD about 30 seconds after the final shot (as suggested by Couch-Darnell) wouldn't have given Shelley and Lovelady enough time to enter the building about 20 seconds earlier and get to the area near the stairs / elevators in time for Baker to see them there, and/or that Adams and Styles couldn't have gotten to the first floor quickly enough for Adams to see [fill in the blank] there?
-- Tom
-
Dear Comrade Storing,
Are you trying to say that Baker's and Truly's entering the TSBD about 30 seconds after the final shot (as suggested by Couch-Darnell) wouldn't have given Shelley and Lovelady enough time to enter the building about 20 seconds earlier and get to the area near the stairs / elevators in time for Baker to see them there?
-- Tom
In what reality do Shelley and Lovelady enter the TSBD building 10 seconds after the final shot??
-
In what reality do Shelley and Lovelady enter the TSBD building 10 seconds after the final shot??
Dear danny BOY o'meara,
I said about ten seconds after the final shot.
Would you prefer three minutes?
-- Tom
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Dear danny BOY o'meara,
I said about ten seconds after the final shot.
Would you prefer three minutes?
-- Tom
Dear Comrade Jerkov,
I what reality do Shelley and Lovelady enter the TSBD building ABOUT 10 seconds after the final shot?
What are you waffling on about?
My guess is that you are either high or you've not been reading the posts you are replying to.
-
Mr. BAKER - As I entered that depository building, I was--people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way.
Mr. DULLES - From inside the building?
Mr. BAKER - No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.
There were "several people" entering the front door as Baker entered.
One of these people was Truly.
It was at this moment that Shelley and Lovelady passed by Baker in the lobby and entered the main room of the first floor while Baker was interacting with Truly.
Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady entered the building at pretty much the same time, around 30 - 40 seconds after the final shot.
-
Mr. BAKER - As I entered that depository building, I was--people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way.
Mr. DULLES - From inside the building?
Mr. BAKER - No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.
There were "several people" entering the front door as Baker entered.
One of these people was Truly.
It was at this moment that Shelley and Lovelady passed by Baker in the lobby and entered the main room of the first floor while Baker was interacting with Truly.
Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady entered the building at pretty much the same time, around 30 - 40 seconds after the final shot.
Expanding Officer Baker's entrance into the TSBD to 40 seconds is a good start to remedy your Tick-Tock issue. Now you gotta explain just how ALL of these people forced their way through the TSBD Front Door at the same time. That is just a glass door. It is not the Skull Island Gates/"King Kong" (1933). On top of that, the landing in front of the glass door was narrow'er on 11/22/63. And then on top of that, if you open that glass door ALL the way, Buell Frazier would have to move from standing out in front of it. When wide open, that glass door extended ALL the way to the outer edge of the landing.
-
Expanding Officer Baker's entrance into the TSBD to 40 seconds is a good start to remedy your Tick-Tock issue. Now you gotta explain just how ALL of these people forced their way through the TSBD Front Door at the same time. That is just a glass door. It is not the Skull Island Gates/"King Kong" (1933). On top of that, the landing in front of the glass door was narrow'er on 11/22/63. And then on top of that, if you open that glass door ALL the way, Buell Frazier would have to move from standing out in front of it. When wide open, that glass door extended ALL the way to the outer edge of the landing.
Royel, Royell, Royell...
You really must read the posts concerning the issue under discussion.
Firstly, I think it's just good manners to do that. If you're involved in a discussion you should make an effort to be aware of what's actually being said in that discussion. And, secondly, it would just save me so much time having to go over the same information time and time again trying to remedy your constant misinterpretations, misunderstandings and misrepresentations.
Here is the initial timeline I posted a few replies ago:
Last shot
0 - 10 seconds
Gloria is racing towards the TSBD building. Shelley runs across to the 'island'. Lovelady stays put. Baker is on his bike heading for the TSBD building. Adams is in motion
10 - 20 seconds
Gloria meets Shelley at the island and makes her way to the front steps followed by Shelley. Baker pulls up and dismounts. Lovelady stays put as Gloria runs towards him. Adams reaches the top of the stairs.
20 - 30 seconds
Baker races past Truly and makes his way up the front steps. As he enters the lobby he is followed by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Adams racing down stairs.
30 - 40 seconds
Baker and Truly have their interaction in the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady make their way directly through the lobby and start to cross the first floor. Adams is still on the stairs.
40 - 50 seconds
Shelley and Lovelady are near the elevators. Adams races past them and calls out about the President before leaving through the back door. Truly and Baker have just entered the first floor from the lobby.
50 - 60 seconds
Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators. Shelley and Lovelady have split up and are trying to act as if nothing is happening. Adams and Styles are outside, racing towards the railroad tracks.
Expanding Officer Baker's entrance into the TSBD to 40 seconds is a good start to remedy your Tick-Tock issue.
I have not expanded Baker's entrance into the building to 40 seconds.
Baker's entrance is around the 30 second mark.
At 40 seconds he is interacting with Truly in the lobby.
(Read the post again and pay attention this time)
You seem to imagine there is a "tick tock issue" but you never specify what it is.
Analyse the timeline I've presented and spell out why you believe there is an issue with the timings.
All you've done so far is come up with the ludicrous argument that imagines the first floor is a wide open, empty space which you've wisely dropped.
But now we have this gem...
Now you gotta explain just how ALL of these people forced their way through the TSBD Front Door at the same time.
I literally can't believe you've asked this question.
It really has blown my mind.
In the post you are responding to...THE POST YOU ARE RESPONDING TO...Baker answers this very question in detail.
In his WC testimony he literally states that "There were several people coming in as I...came in". He goes on to say, "there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back".
It's not my problem that you can't visualise a number of people entering through a doorway around the same time.
In your mind you seem to be imagining all four men stood side-by-side, shoulder-to-shoulder, trying to enter the door at exactly the same moment. Do you live in some kind of cartoon world?
According to you, this is the big problem with the timeline I'm putting forward but, like your nonsense about the empty first floor, it's not a "tick tock issue", as you put it.
If all you can come up with are Tom and Jerry arguments against the timeline I'm presenting, isn't it time to consider that I might be on to something?
The timeline I'm presenting, unlike anyone else's, is supported by the Dillard pic, The Stroud document, The Darnell footage, the WC testimonies of Adams, Baker, Truly, Molina, and the initial affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady.
It also makes sense of the lies Shelley and Lovelady told the WC.
-
Royel, Royell, Royell...
You really must read the posts concerning the issue under discussion.
Firstly, I think it's just good manners to do that. If you're involved in a discussion you should make an effort to be aware of what's actually being said in that discussion. And, secondly, it would just save me so much time having to go over the same information time and time again trying to remedy your constant misinterpretations, misunderstandings and misrepresentations.
Here is the initial timeline I posted a few replies ago:
Last shot
0 - 10 seconds
Gloria is racing towards the TSBD building. Shelley runs across to the 'island'. Lovelady stays put. Baker is on his bike heading for the TSBD building. Adams is in motion
10 - 20 seconds
Gloria meets Shelley at the island and makes her way to the front steps followed by Shelley. Baker pulls up and dismounts. Lovelady stays put as Gloria runs towards him. Adams reaches the top of the stairs.
20 - 30 seconds
Baker races past Truly and makes his way up the front steps. As he enters the lobby he is followed by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Adams racing down stairs.
30 - 40 seconds
Baker and Truly have their interaction in the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady make their way directly through the lobby and start to cross the first floor. Adams is still on the stairs.
40 - 50 seconds
Shelley and Lovelady are near the elevators. Adams races past them and calls out about the President before leaving through the back door. Truly and Baker have just entered the first floor from the lobby.
50 - 60 seconds
Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators. Shelley and Lovelady have split up and are trying to act as if nothing is happening. Adams and Styles are outside, racing towards the railroad tracks.
Expanding Officer Baker's entrance into the TSBD to 40 seconds is a good start to remedy your Tick-Tock issue.
I have not expanded Baker's entrance into the building to 40 seconds.
Baker's entrance is around the 30 second mark.
At 40 seconds he is interacting with Truly in the lobby.
(Read the post again and pay attention this time)
You seem to imagine there is a "tick tock issue" but you never specify what it is.
Analyse the timeline I've presented and spell out why you believe there is an issue with the timings.
All you've done so far is come up with the ludicrous argument that imagines the first floor is a wide open, empty space which you've wisely dropped.
But now we have this gem...
Now you gotta explain just how ALL of these people forced their way through the TSBD Front Door at the same time.
I literally can't believe you've asked this question.
It really has blown my mind.
In the post you are responding to...THE POST YOU ARE RESPONDING TO...Baker answers this very question in detail.
In his WC testimony he literally states that "There were several people coming in as I...came in". He goes on to say, "there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back".
It's not my problem that you can't visualise a number of people entering through a doorway around the same time.
In your mind you seem to be imagining all four men stood side-by-side, shoulder-to-shoulder, trying to enter the door at exactly the same moment. Do you live in some kind of cartoon world?
According to you, this is the big problem with the timeline I'm putting forward but, like your nonsense about the empty first floor, it's not a "tick tock issue", as you put it.
If all you can come up with are Tom and Jerry arguments against the timeline I'm presenting, isn't it time to consider that I might be on to something?
The timeline I'm presenting, unlike anyone else's, is supported by the Dillard pic, The Stroud document, The Darnell footage, the WC testimonies of Adams, Baker, Truly, Molina, and the initial affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady.
It also makes sense of the lies Shelley and Lovelady told the WC.
If Baker enters the TSBD in 30 seconds, and there are people behind him, in front of him, and to the sides of him, how does he converse with Truly, make it through the lobby and then cross the 1st Floor in only 30 additional seconds? He doesn't. Plus, you claim that Baker can Not see Lovelady and Shelley crossing the same 1st Floor in front of him, due to the 1st Floor being cluttered. This means that Baker and Truly are not crossing the floor inna straight line. This only increases the time it took them to navigate their way across the floor. I also believe you do not appreciate how large the footprint of the TSBD is. Crossing a floor is a good walk, especially if the floor is cluttered and Baker has to follow Truly as he zig-zags across it. 30 seconds to go from the TSBD front door, talk with Truly, fight their way through the throng all around them in the lobby, and then navigate across the entire 1st floor is too quick.
-
If Baker enters the TSBD in 30 seconds, and there are people behind him, in front of him, and to the sides of him, how does he converse with Truly, make it through the lobby and then cross the 1st Floor in only 30 additional seconds? He doesn't. Plus, you claim that Baker can Not see Lovelady and Shelley crossing the same 1st Floor in front of him, due to the 1st Floor being cluttered. This means that Baker and Truly are not crossing the floor inna straight line. This only increases the time it took them to navigate their way across the floor. I also believe you do not appreciate how large the footprint of the TSBD is. Crossing a floor is a good walk, especially if the floor is cluttered and Baker has to follow Truly as he zig-zags across it. 30 seconds to go from the TSBD front door, talk with Truly, fight their way through the throng all around them in the lobby, and then navigate across the entire 1st floor is too quick.
If Baker enters the TSBD in 30 seconds, and there are people behind him, in front of him, and to the sides of him, how does he converse with Truly, make it through the lobby and then cross the 1st Floor in only 30 additional seconds?
It's easily done.
Yet again, we are dealing with your inability to visualise things in a realistic way or to think things through properly.
You don't have a "tick tock issue", you have a thinking issue.
You also need to familiarise yourself with the evidence.
The distance they have to cover is no more than 110 feet. They don't walk , as you suggest, but "trot". At 5mph this is faster than a walk but slower than a run. Also, they don't have to zigzag, as you suggest, they travel straight ahead for about half the length of the building then travel diagonally to the area near the elevators.
110 feet can be covered can be covered in 15 seconds at a trot (there's 5280 feet in a mile if you are going to do the calculation).
After you've done the calculation, get yourself a stopwatch and time the following imaginary interaction:
Baker: Who can show me where the stairs or elevator are which will take me to the roof?
Truly: I'm Roy Truly, building supervisor, I can take you to the roof.
Baker: Let's go!
I make it at 10 seconds.
This even leaves enough time for Baker to run into the back of Truly at the counter.
Remember, the timings I've given are an approximation but, even so, they still stand up at the moment without any change.
There is no "tick tock issue", as you put it.
The arguments you've raised against my proposed timeline reveal nothing wrong with the timeline but plenty wrong with your ability to visualise reality.
You must see the ease with which your objections are being dealt with and you must concede that, after all your objections have been dealt with, the timeline is valid.
-
If Baker enters the TSBD in 30 seconds, and there are people behind him, in front of him, and to the sides of him, how does he converse with Truly, make it through the lobby and then cross the 1st Floor in only 30 additional seconds?
It's easily done.
Yet again, we are dealing with your inability to visualise things in a realistic way or to think things through properly.
You don't have a "tick tock issue", you have a thinking issue.
You also need to familiarise yourself with the evidence.
The distance they have to cover is no more than 110 feet. They don't walk , as you suggest, but "trot". At 5mph this is faster than a walk but slower than a run. Also, they don't have to zigzag, as you suggest, they travel straight ahead for about half the length of the building then travel diagonally to the area near the elevators.
110 feet can be covered can be covered in 15 seconds at a trot (there's 5280 feet in a mile if you are going to do the calculation).
After you've done the calculation, get yourself a stopwatch and time the following imaginary interaction:
Baker: Who can show me where the stairs or elevator are which will take me to the roof?
Truly: I'm Roy Truly, building supervisor, I can take you to the roof.
Baker: Let's go!
I make it at 10 seconds.
This even leaves enough time for Baker to run into the back of Truly at the counter.
Remember, the timings I've given are an approximation but, even so, they still stand up at the moment without any change.
There is no "tick tock issue", as you put it.
The arguments you've raised against my proposed timeline reveal nothing wrong with the timeline but plenty wrong with your ability to visualise reality.
You must see the ease with which your objections are being dealt with and you must concede that, after all your objections have been dealt with, the timeline is valid.
OK. So now you wanna go from Baker and Truly being literally surrounded by people, to their being able to freely "trot" around the TSBD? You make a big deal out of an alleged 110', but if you have a throng of confused people all around you, you're boxed in. You struggle to do jack. Even conversing would be an issue. And you forget to mention the "tug of rope" that Truly & Baker had going with that locked swinging door connected to the counter. You know, that escapade that had the 2 of them bouncing off of each other like "Laurel and Hardy"? All of this mayhem consumes "tick tock" off of that 30 second clock that begins the moment that Baker fights his way through that, "1 way in, 1 way out", TSBD front door. This has nothing to do with what I "visualize". It has everything to do with this ever evolving tale. You need to decide specifically how you want to paint this picture. "Measure twice, cut once", would be in order here.
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OK. So now you wanna go from Baker and Truly being literally surrounded by people, to their being able to freely "trot" around the TSBD? You make a big deal out of an alleged 110', but if you have a throng of confused people all around you, you're boxed in. You struggle to do jack. Even conversing would be an issue. And you forget to mention the "tug of rope" that Truly & Baker had going with that locked swinging door connected to the counter. You know, that escapade that had the 2 of them bouncing off of each other like "Laurel and Hardy"? All of this mayhem consumes "tick tock" off of that 30 second clock that begins the moment that Baker fights his way through that, "1 way in, 1 way out", TSBD front door. This has nothing to do with what I "visualize". It has everything to do with this ever evolving tale. You need to decide specifically how you want to paint this picture. "Measure twice, cut once", would be in order here.
So now you wanna go from Baker and Truly being literally surrounded by people, to their being able to freely "trot" around the TSBD?
Once again, I dispel one of your cartoonish notions with actual evidence so you just make up another.
Now you have the lobby so packed with people that nobody can move!!
It's impossible to have a reasoned debate when I am operating in the real world and you're just plucking bizarre scenarios out of your cartoonish imagination.
As Baker enters the lobby he makes the point that other people are entering with him at the same time and that there are already people in the lobby. In your life you must have seen a situation where a number of people are entering a building through a doorway at the same time. You don't have to imagine everyone standing shoulder-to-shoulder. That's just the cartoons.
Your arguments against the timeline I have presented are not arguments at all. It may really be the case that you imagine you are making valid points, it's hard to say.
You have said nothing that has had any impact on the validity of my timeline. I can't take your cartoonish scenarios seriously.
"Measure twice, cut once", would be in order here.
"Think once", might do you some good.
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O'MEARA - Have you gone through that YOU TUBE piece by Lone Gunman (1:37:49)? It looks like a lot of this is Kamp's work. It was posted 9 yrs ago and I am just beginning to sort through it. A ton of stuff in this opus applies to your alleged Lovelady/Shelley movements. Let me know if you have not gone through it and I'll direct you exactly where it is at. Very detailed, extremely interesting. Diamonds in the rough throughout I am sure.