JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on September 14, 2025, 10:46:55 AM
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During the motorcade, large-and-tall, dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with her three headscarf-wearing South-West Publishing Company colleagues (from left to right in Zapruder: Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery) only about 40 yards from the "island" that's across the street from the TSBD's front steps.
If you need "proof" of this, go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum website and read the articles that I and/or Sandy Larsen posted on Calvery and on self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (whom certain JFKA heavyweights confused with Calvery in the Zapruder film eons ago.)
We can see Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white (including white headscarf) colleague, Hicks, on the steps in the Couch-Darnell clip 25-30 seconds after the final shot. We can even see a part of Calvery's plaid shirt in one or two of the frames.
In his 11/22/63 affidavit to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department (24H226), William Shelley said, “The President’s car was about halfway from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn’t tell where they came from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park [i.e., the "island"] and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery,” and in his 4/7/64 Warren Commission testimony (6H327), Shelley said, "Gloria Calvery from South-Western Publishing Company ran back up there crying and said, "The President has been shot," and Billy Lovelady and myself took off."
In his 4/7/64 Warren Commission testimony (6H336), Billy Lovelady said, "It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."
Interestingly, in the same Couch-Darnell clip we can see DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker running towards the TSBD steps, Shelley and Lovelady walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot, and Calvery's other colleague, black-skirt-and-white-blouse-wearing Carol Reed, running past Shelley and Lovelady while bookin' it to the TSBD.
(Pat Speer speculates that Lovelady and Shelley sped up right after Reed passed them because she confirmed to them that JFK had been shot.)
Question:
Were Calvery and Hicks able to run to the "island" quickly enough to not only inform Shelley (and Lovelady?) there that JFK had been shot, but to give them 15-20 seconds to get as far down Elm Street Extension as we see them in Couch-Darnell?
My answer:
Having run the 40-yard dash in 4.8 seconds in high school (not bad for a big clodhopper like me), I say "Yes, they were."
Bottom line:
If Vicki Adams and /or Sandra Styles saw Shelley and /or Lovelady on the TSBD's first floor when they arrived there from the fourth floor, it must have been after Shelley and Lovelady had returned to the TSBD from the railway yard / parking lot (where they said they'd stayed for a minute-and-a-half, IIRC).
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During the motorcade, large-and-tall, dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with her three headscarf-wearing South-West Publishing Company colleagues (from left to right in Zapruder: Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery) only about 40 yards from the "island" that's across the street from the TSBD's front steps.
We can see Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white (including white headscarf) colleague, Hicks, on the steps in the Couch-Darnell clip 25-30 seconds after the final shot. We can even see a part of Calvery's plaid shirt in one or two of the frames.
In his 11/22/63 affidavit to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department (24H226), William Shelley said, “The President’s car was about halfway from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn’t tell where they came from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park [i.e., the "island"] and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery,” and in his 4/7/64 Warren Commission testimony (6H327), Shelley said, "Gloria Calvery from South-Western Publishing Company ran back up there crying and said, "The President has been shot," and Billy Lovelady and myself took off."
In his 4/7/64 Warren Commission testimony (6H336), Billy Lovelady said, "It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."
Interestingly, in the same Couch-Darnell clip we can see DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker running towards the TSBD steps, Shelley and Lovelady walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot, and Calvery's other colleague, black-skirt-and-white-blouse-wearing Carol Reed, running past Shelley and Lovelady while bookin' it to the TSBD.
(Pat Speer speculates that Lovelady and Shelley sped up right after Reed passed them because she confirmed to them that JFK had been shot.)
Question:
Were Calvery and Hicks able to reach the "island" quickly enough to tell Shelley (and Lovelady?) there that JFK had been shot and enable them to get as far as they did down Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell as they apparently did just 25-30 seconds after the final shot?
My answer:
Having run the 40-yard dash in 4.8 seconds in high school (not bad for a big clodhopper like me), I say "Yes, they were."
Bottom line:
If Vicki Adams and /or Sandra Styles saw Shelley and /or Lovelady on the TSBD's first floor when they got there from the fourth floor, it must have been after Shelley and Lovelady had returned to the TSBD from the railway yard / parking lot (where they said they'd stayed for a minute-and-a-half, IIRC).
Who has positively ID'd those 2 individuals going down the Elm St Ext as being Shelley & Lovelady? Other than Yourself? Please use caution with cavalierly slapping ID's on figures in JFK Assassination Films/Photos. Or repeating said same. Currently, the ID of DPD Motorcycle Officer Haygood being the motorcycle cop we see walking across the train yard on the Darnell Film is precariously hanging by a thread. The release of the last half of the NBC "Original" Darnell Film should put that erroneous Haygood ID to rest. Maybe this is what is holding up the release of that last 1/2 ?
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Who has positively ID'd those 2 individuals going down the Elm St Ext as being Shelley & Lovelady? Other than Yourself?
Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you think it's just a "photographic processing anomaly" that the bold horizontal and vertical stripes in the shirt "Lovelady" is wearing Couch-Darnell perfectly correlate with the stripes in the shirt we know he was wearing that day?
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you think that the fact that the bold horizontal and vertical stripes in the shirt that the "Lovelady" figure in Couch-Darnell is wearing perfectly match up with the bold horizontal and vertical stripes in the shirt we know he was wearing that day is just a "photographic processing anomaly" coincidence?
-- Tom
Think about your description, "....bold horizontal and vertical stripes.......". What you are describing is a checker'd shirt. Do you believe that Lovelady was wearing a checker'd shirt? And you have yet to tell me specifically who has definitively ID'd those 2 individuals going down the Elm St Ext as being Shelley and Lovelady.
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What you are describing is a checkered shirt. Do you believe that Lovelady was wearing a checkered shirt?
Dear Comrade Storing,
When I hear the word "checkered," I think of the board that the game of checkers (and chess) is played on.
It has sixty-eight equal-sized, alternating (typically) red-and-black squares on it, meaning that each square is relatively small compared to the overall size of the board.
Do you think Lovelady was wearing a shirt with a pattern of smallish, equal-sized squares on 11/22/63?
Or maybe you think he was wearing the shirt with the broad red-and-white vertical stripes that he was wearing at home when an FBI agent visited him and took some photos of him?
Regardless, do you agree that a brutish-looking Lovelady was "captured" on film by Martin and Hughes as he was standing on the TSBD's steps several minutes after the assassination, jutting his jaw outward while exhaling cigarette smoke and waiting to get back into the building, and/or do you agree that Lovelady was "captured" on film as he was sitting in-or-near the police station's Homicide and Robbery Bureau when they walked Oswald past him on their way to an interrogation room?
If so, that's the "checkered" or "plaid" shirt I'm talking about.
You've seen the frames from Couch-Darnell that have been photographically processed (contrast-adjusted?) in such a way as to show the pattern of bold horizontal and vertical stripes in said shirt, haven't you?
-- Tom
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During the motorcade, large-and-tall, dark-blue-blouse-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with her three headscarf-wearing South-West Publishing Company colleagues (from left to right in Zapruder: Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery) only about 40 yards from the "island" that's across the street from the TSBD's front steps.
If you need "proof" of this, go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum website and read the articles that I and/or Sandy Larsen posted on Calvery and on self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (whom certain JFKA heavyweights confused with Calvery in the Zapruder film eons ago.)
We can see Calvery and her dressed-all-in-white (including white headscarf) colleague, Hicks, on the steps in the Couch-Darnell clip 25-30 seconds after the final shot. We can even see a part of Calvery's plaid shirt in one or two of the frames.
In his 11/22/63 affidavit to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department (24H226), William Shelley said, “The President’s car was about halfway from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn’t tell where they came from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park [i.e., the "island"] and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery,” and in his 4/7/64 Warren Commission testimony (6H327), Shelley said, "Gloria Calvery from South-Western Publishing Company ran back up there crying and said, "The President has been shot," and Billy Lovelady and myself took off."
In his 4/7/64 Warren Commission testimony (6H336), Billy Lovelady said, "It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."
Interestingly, in the same Couch-Darnell clip we can see DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker running towards the TSBD steps, Shelley and Lovelady walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot, and Calvery's other colleague, black-skirt-and-white-blouse-wearing Carol Reed, running past Shelley and Lovelady while bookin' it to the TSBD.
(Pat Speer speculates that Lovelady and Shelley sped up right after Reed passed them because she confirmed to them that JFK had been shot.)
Question:
Were Calvery and Hicks able to run to the "island" quickly enough to not only inform Shelley (and Lovelady?) there that JFK had been shot, but to give them 15-20 seconds to get as far down Elm Street Extension as we see them in Couch-Darnell?
My answer:
Having run the 40-yard dash in 4.8 seconds in high school (not bad for a big clodhopper like me), I say "Yes, they were."
Bottom line:
If Vicki Adams and /or Sandra Styles saw Shelley and /or Lovelady on the TSBD's first floor when they arrived there from the fourth floor, it must have been after Shelley and Lovelady had returned to the TSBD from the railway yard / parking lot (where they said they'd stayed for a minute-and-a-half, IIRC).
Just to inject a bit of honesty into this thread.
Shelley's affidavit and his WC testimony completely contradict each other.
The sequence of events described in his affidavit is as follows:
1] On front steps when he hears shots
2] Heads to the concrete spur (on his own) where he meets Gloria.
3] Returns to the TSBD
4] Re-enters the building
The sequence of events described in his WC testimony is as follows:
1] On front steps when he hears shots
2] Waits on steps for about 3 minutes before Gloria arrives at steps
3] Both he and Lovelady then head over to the concrete spur.
4] He turns and sees Baker and Truly still outside the building.
5] Heads down Elm Street extension to the railroad yard, hangs around there for a while, re-enters building through west door (none of which is mentioned in his affidavit).
The main problem for young Thomas is Lovelady.
In his WC testimony Lovelady heads across to the spur AFTER interacting with Gloria on the steps (in his affidavit he never even leaves the steps before re-entering the building).
It is impossible for the two figures on Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady if this is the case.
There is simply no time as Gloria had just arrived at the steps in Darnell.
There is no way around this for young Thomas.
However, if we accept the affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady, and that Lovelady was still on the steps when Gloria came up and told him about the shooting, it is clear that Darnell is showing the moment Gloria arrives at the steps. The man she is talking to on the steps is Lovelady (who is stood in exactly the same position on the steps he was as the motorcade passed by).
There is nothing contradicting this identification.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGjmp3VK/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this
girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise
like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down
under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you run out to the point or walk out?
Mr. SHELLEY. I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, it wasn’t very long.
Mr. BALL. How long?
Mr. SHELLEY. Maybe a minute or two.
Shelley was still stood on the steps when Gloria came up (about 3 minutes after the shooting).
After Gloria came to the steps he went to the spur.
He stayed there maybe a minute or two.
The men on Elm cannot be Shelley and Lovelady. They are already making their way down Elm only 25 seconds after the shooting.
There is no time for the 3 minute wait.
No time for Gloria to finish telling them about the shooting.
No time to wait on the island for a minute or two.
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Just to inject a bit of honesty into this thread.
Shelley's affidavit and his WC testimony completely contradict each other.
The sequence of events described in his affidavit is as follows:
1] On front steps when he hears shots
2] Heads to the concrete spur (on his own) where he meets Gloria.
3] Returns to the TSBD
4] Re-enters the building
The sequence of events described in his WC testimony is as follows:
1] On front steps when he hears shots
2] Waits on steps for about 3 minutes before Gloria arrives at steps
3] Both he and Lovelady then head over to the concrete spur.
4] He turns and sees Baker and Truly still outside the building.
5] Heads down Elm Street extension to the railroad yard, hangs around there for a while, re-enters building through west door (none of which is mentioned in his affidavit).
The main problem for young Thomas is Lovelady.
In his WC testimony Lovelady heads across to the spur AFTER interacting with Gloria on the steps (in his affidavit he never even leaves the steps before re-entering the building).
It is impossible for the two figures on Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady if this is the case.
There is simply no time as Gloria had just arrived at the steps in Darnell.
There is no way around this for young Thomas.
However, if we accept the affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady, and that Lovelady was still on the steps when Gloria came up and told him about the shooting, it is clear that Darnell is showing the moment Gloria arrives at the steps. The man she is talking to on the steps is Lovelady (who is stood in exactly the same position on the steps he was as the motorcade passed by).
There is nothing contradicting this identification.
Big/tall, 20-year-old, dark-blue-skirt-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / lighter-colored-plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues were standing shoulder-to-shoulder about 40 yards from the "island" during the motorcade.
Calvery can be seen standing on or going up the TSBD steps next to her dressed-in-all-white colleague, Karan Hicks, 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
A guy who looks like William Shelley and a guy who looks like Billy Lovelady can be seen walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
The Shelley figure is slender, wearing a suit, and has a "pompadour" hair style. The Lovelady figure has a "male pattern" bald spot and is wearing a dark-colored long-sleeve shirt that has bold black and white horizontal and vertical lines.
Calvery's and Hicks' colleague, Carol Reed (who is wearing a black skirt, a white blouse, and a red headscarf in the Zapruder film, and who has told researcher Brian Doyle that she remembers running after the assassination), can be seen running past the Shelley and Lovelady figures, on her way to the TSBD 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
Police officer Marion Baker can be seen running towards the TSBD front steps, and Roy Truly, standing in front of the steps, can be seen watching Baker run past him 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
Shelley and Lovelady, due to poor memories and/or for sinister reasons, were "all over the place" (pardon the pun) in their affidavits and testimonies, but if we combine what we see in Couch-Darnell with certain statements in their affidavits and testimonies, we can create a plausible narrative which says:
Shelley (and Lovelady?) intercepted a crying Calvery and Hicks at the "island" about ten seconds after the final shot, Calvery (and Hicks?) told Shelley (and Lovelady?) there that JFK had been shot, Shelley and Lovelady started walking towards the railway yard / parking lot, Calvery and Hicks continued on their way to the TSBD steps (where Buell Wesley Frazier said he heard her bellow out that JFK had been shot), Shelley and Lovelady sped up when Carol Reed ran past them and verbally confirmed that JFK had been shot, and Shelley and Lovelady, after staying at the railway yard / parking lot for a minute or so, came back to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door, near which rear door just-arrived-from-the-fourth-floor Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles may (or may not) have seen Shelley and/or Lovelady on the first floor in the rear part of the building.
. . . . . . .
Caveat:
I don't subscribe to the "Prayer Man" theory, but Greg Parker's website has some good images of Lovelady and Shelley showing how they closely resemble the Shelley and Lovelady figures who are walking/running towards the railway yard / parking lot 25-30 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
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Big/tall, 19-year-old, dark-blue-skirt-wearing / dark-blue-headscarf-wearing / lighter-colored-plaid-skirt-wearing Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues were standing shoulder-to-shoulder only about 40 yards from the "island" during the motorcade.
She's standing on or going up the TSBD steps next to her dressed-in-all-white colleague, Karan Hicks, 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
A guy who looks like William Shelley and a guy who looks like Billy Lovelady can be seen walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
The Shelley figure is slender, wearing a suit, and has a "pompadour" hair style. The Lovelady figure has a "male pattern" bald spot and is wearing a dark-colored long-sleeve shirt that has bold black and white horizontal and vertical lines.
Calvery's and Hicks' colleague, Carol Reed (who is wearing a black skirt, a white blouse, and a red headscarf in the Zapruder film, and who has told researcher Brian Doyle that she remembers running after the assassination), can be seen running past the Shelley and Lovelady figures, on her way to the TSBD 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
Police officer Marion Baker can be seen running towards the TSBD front steps, and Roy Truly, standing in front of the steps, can be seen watching Baker run past him 25-30 seconds after the final shot in the Couch-Darnell clip.
Shelley and Lovelady, due to poor memories and/or for sinister reasons, were "all over the place" (pardon the pun) in their affidavits and testimonies, but if we combine what we see in Couch-Darnell with certain statements in their affidavits and testimonies, we can create a plausible narrative which says:
Shelley (and Lovelady?) intercepted a crying Calvery and Hicks at the "island" about ten seconds after the final shot, Calvery (and Hicks?) told Shelley (and Lovelady?) there that JFK had been shot, Shelley and Lovelady started walking towards the railway yard / parking lot, Calvery and Hicks continued on their way to the TSBD steps, Shelley and Lovelady sped up when Carol Reed ran past them and verbally confirmed that JFK had been shot, and Shelley and Lovelady, after staying at the railway yard / parking lot for a minute or so, came back to the TSBD and entered it through a rear door, near which just-arrived-from-the-fourth-floor Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles may (or may not) have seen Shelley and/or Lovelady on the first floor in the rear part of the building.
Wow.
So now you have Lovelady racing out to the "island" where he meets Calvery who tells him about the shooting at the island.
Don't you have any qualms about making this stuff up when you know Lovelady stated he was still on the steps when Gloria came running up.
How do you explain Shelley saying he met Gloria at the "island" in his affidavit but that he stayed on the steps after the shooting until Gloria arrived there in his WC testimony.
How do you explain the 3 minute lie both men told about how long it took Gloria to get there.
How do you explain that Shelley stated they spent a minute or two on the "island" but is seen walking up Elm Street seconds after the shooting?
How do you explain that Shelley was on the "island"when he saw Baker at the bottom of the steps but in Darnell "Shelley" is walking down Elm with his back to Baker arriving at the steps.
To be honest, now you've reached the stage where you're knowingly fabricating events, I suppose rational debate has left the building.
Do you remember when you used to be a decent researcher?
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So, now you have Lovelady racing out to the "island" where he meets Calvery, who tells him about the shooting at the island.
Why the hyperbole, Gaslighter Supreme?
I put a question mark after Lovelady's name.
Perhaps you didn't notice.
For all I know, best-man Shelley "raced out to the 'island'" all by him widdle self to intercept Calvery and Hicks and find out why they were running and crying. If that was the case, then Shelley probably signaled (by waving his arm, pointing, whistling loudly, etc.) to Lovelady (scoping things out from your beloved steps) to join him on his walk to the railway yard / parking lot to check things out.
Don't you have any qualms about making this stuff up when you know Lovelady stated he was still on the steps when Gloria came running up.
I didn't make anything up, Danny Boy.
I extrapolated from what Shelley and Lovelady said in their various affidavits and testimonies to create a plausible narrative that jibes with Couch-Darnell and the timing elements of Mark Tyler's mostly-correct (e.g., Calvery's location during the motorcade and the fact that Baker started running towards the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot) synchronized animation of the motorcade.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
Do you have a problem with that?
How do you explain Shelley saying he met Gloria at the "island" in his affidavit but that he stayed on the steps after the shooting until Gloria arrived there in his WC testimony.
Beats the heck out of me.
The dude either had a really poor memory regarding chaotic and stressful situations he'd been in, or he was part of the evil, evil Deep State, I reckon.
What do you make of it?
How do you explain the three-minute lie both men told about how long it took Gloria to get there?
See above.
How do you explain that Shelley stated they spent a minute or two on the "island" but is seen walking up Elm Street seconds after the shooting?
Ditto.
How do you explain that Shelley was on the "island" when he saw Baker at the bottom of the steps but in Darnell "Shelley" is walking down Elm with his back to Baker arriving at the steps?
Beats the heck out of me.
It really does.
To be honest, now you've reached the stage where you're knowingly fabricating events, I suppose rational debate has left the building.
That's tantamount to calling me a liar.
Do you really want to call me a liar, Danny Boy?
Do you remember when you used to be a decent researcher?
Do you mean when I used to be a tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorist like you?
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Why the hyperbole, Gaslighter Supreme?
I put a question mark after Lovelady's name.
Perhaps you didn't notice.
You clearly don't know what Gaslighting means.
And you can put as many question marks after Lovelady's name as you want, you've been caught out peddling this nonsense already and you doubtless will again.
For all I know, best-man Shelley "raced out to the 'island'" all by him widdle self to intercept Calvery and Hicks and find out why they were running and crying. If that was the case, then Shelley probably signaled (by waving his arm, pointing, whistling loudly, etc.) to Lovelady (scoping things out from your beloved steps) to join him on his walk to the railway yard / parking lot to check things out.
Great...more invented scenarios plucked out of thin air.
You really are starting to sound like some of the more fringe elements of the JFKA debate.
I didn't make anything up, Danny Boy.
I extrapolated from what Shelley and Lovelady said in their various affidavits and testimonies to create a plausible narrative that jibes with Couch-Darnell and the timing elements of Mark Tyler's mostly-correct synchronized animation of the motorcade.
You clearly don't know what "making things up" means.
You've completely invented a scenario that does not have a scrap of evidence to support it, which is, in fact, refuted by the evidence
You have invented it out of thin air.
You have fabricated it
Do you have a problem with that?
Knock yourself out, buddy.
Beats the heck out of me.
The dude either had a really poor memory regarding chaotic and stressful situations he'd been in, or he was part of the evil, evil Deep State, I reckon.
What do you make of it?
See above.
Ditto.
Beats the heck out of me.
It really does.
Wow.
That's tantamount to calling me a liar.
Do you really want to call me a liar, Danny Boy?
"Liar" is your word, not mine.
Try to think of a nicer word for someone who makes up any old BS: they want in order to support their agenda.
Do you mean when I used to be a tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorist like you?
I bet you had some respect for the evidence back then.
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You clearly don't know what Gaslighting means.
And you can put as many question marks after Lovelady's name as you want, you've been caught out peddling this nonsense already and you doubtless will again.
Great...more invented scenarios plucked out of thin air.
You really are starting to sound like some of the more fringe elements of the JFKA debate.
You clearly don't know what "making things up" means.
You've completely invented a scenario that does not have a scrap of evidence to support it, which is, in fact, refuted by the evidence
You have invented it out of thin air.
You have fabricated it
Knock yourself out, buddy.
Wow.
"Liar" is your word, not mine.
Try to think of a nicer word for someone who makes up any old [xxx xxxx] they want in order to support their agenda.
I bet you had some respect for the evidence back then.
Dear Danny Boy,
You're flailing, like a non-swimmer caught in a rip current who knows he's going down, down, down.
Regardless, you evidently think (sic) Shelley and Lovelady were witting parts of "The Conspiracy."
Why don't you spit out your tinfoil-hat JFKA CT for us, DB?
Between desperate breaths, that is.
-- Tom
PS You don't deny that Gloria Calvery is standing on, or walking up, the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the final shot in Couch-Darnell, do you?
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you think it's just a "photographic processing anomaly" that the bold horizontal and vertical stripes in the shirt "Lovelady" is wearing Couch-Darnell perfectly correlate with the stripes in the shirt we know he was wearing that day?
-- Tom
Bump with respect to your claimed, "..bold horizontal and vertical stripes in the shirt". How can a shirt have "Bold HORIZONTAL and VERTICAL Stripes", and not be checkered?
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Dear Comrade Storing,
When I hear the word "checkered," I think of the board that the game of checkers (and chess) is played on.
It has sixty-eight equal-sized, alternating (typically) red-and-black squares on it, meaning that each square is relatively small compared to the overall size of the board.
Do you think Lovelady was wearing a shirt with a pattern of smallish, equal-sized squares on 11/22/63?
Or maybe you think he was wearing the shirt with the broad red-and-white vertical stripes that he was wearing at home when an FBI agent visited him and took some photos of him?
Regardless, do you agree that a brutish-looking Lovelady was "captured" on film by Martin and Hughes as he was standing on the TSBD's steps several minutes after the assassination, jutting his jaw outward while exhaling cigarette smoke and waiting to get back into the building, and/or do you agree that Lovelady was "captured" on film as he was sitting in-or-near the police station's Homicide and Robbery Bureau when they walked Oswald past him on their way to an interrogation room?
If so, that's the "checkered" or "plaid" shirt I'm talking about.
You've seen the frames from Couch-Darnell that have been photographically processed (contrast-adjusted?) in such a way as to show the pattern of bold horizontal and vertical stripes in said shirt, haven't you?
-- Tom
I am familiar with what the Lovelady shirt looked like. Your description does Not match that shirt. This calls into question your other JFK Assassination Film observations. This would include the BACK of that person standing in front of the TSBD. Also, Lovelady and Shelley re-entered the TSBD via the dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. Lovelady very clearly details this during his WC Testimony. You mention Lovelady standing on the TSBD Steps and "exhaling cigarette smoke", while waiting to get inside the TSBD? Maybe what we are seeing was filmed during the 3-4 Minutes BEFORE he and Shelley spoke with Calvery and then walked down the Elm St Ext? Which of course defeats your claiming that Calvery spoke with Lovelady and Shelley 30 seconds after the Kill Shot , which then sent Lovelady and Shelley walking down the Elm St Ext. You're defeating your point that Calvery was at the TSBD and speaking with Lovelady and Shelley only 30 seconds after the Kill Shot.
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Bump with respect to your claimed, "..bold horizontal and vertical stripes in the shirt". How can a shirt have "Bold HORIZONTAL and VERTICAL Stripes," and not be checkered?
Is this some kind of desperate semantical ploy of yours, Comrade Storing?
Unless you think real-deal Lovelady was wearing a different shirt than the one the "Lovelady lookalike" was wearing in the Martin and Hughes clips while standing and smoking on the TSBD steps several minutes after the assassination, and in the [fill in the blank] clip in which another(?) "Lovelady lookalike" was sitting in the Homicide and Burglary Bureau as they walked Oswald past him, what point are you trying to make?
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You mention Lovelady standing on the TSBD steps and "exhaling cigarette smoke" while waiting to get inside the TSBD. Maybe what we are seeing was filmed during the 3-4 minutes before he and Shelley spoke with Calvery and then walked down the Elm Street Extension. Which of course defeats your claim that Calvery spoke with Lovelady and Shelley 30 seconds after the kill shot.
Dear Comrade Storing,
I guess you're not familiar with the John Martin* and Robert Hughes clips I was referring to.
Either that, or you think John Martin and Robert Hughes were standing there, calmly filming the scene on the TSBD steps, three to four minutes after the assassination.
In Lovelady’s HSCA interview, he stated that it took him 20 to 25 minutes to return to the TSBD. He's standing on the steps and smoking in the John Martin clip, which was filmed between 12:50 and 13:00.
Ditto the Robert Hughes clip that shows Lovelady standing on the steps and smoking.
-- Tom
PS If you weren't so lazy and/or so averse to experiencing the psychological pain of having your beliefs shattered, you could go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum, plug in the search term "Calvery," and read my and Sandy Larsen's posts there on the subject of the correct identification of headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues (Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, and Karen "Forgetful" Westbrook) in the Zapruder film, and headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and two of her work colleagues (Carol "Running Girl" Reed and Karan "Dressed-all-in-White" Hicks) in the Couch-Darnell film.
*Google "Raw footage #17: John Martin Jr.'s film" and go to the 00:00:38 mark.
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Dear Comrade Storing,
I guess you're not familiar with the Martin and Hughes clips I was referring to.
Either that, or you think Martin and Hughes were standing there, calmly filming the scene on the TSBD steps 3-4 minutes after the assassination.
What a piece of work you are, Comrade Storing.
-- Tom
Let's make sure we are discussing the same film footage. The footage I have watched shows Lovelady standing on the (R) side of the TSBD steps. (Not the (L) side as we see him on the Altgens Photo). You claim Lovelady was filmed waiting to get inside the TSBD. I have shown you that Shelley and Lovelady gave WC testimony that they went inside the TSBD via the loading dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. Also, Lovelady testified that after going back inside the TSBD via the loading dock, he was then running the elevator as ordered by Truly. If according to you, Lovelady and Shelley spoke with Calvery and then walked down the Elm St Ext only 30 seconds after the kill shot, how did they return to the front of the TSBD in order to "wait" to get inside? The WC Testimony of Lovelady and Shelley destroys your Calvery 30 second claim.
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Let's make sure we are discussing the same film footage. The footage I have watched shows Lovelady standing on the (R) side of the TSBD steps. (Not the (L) side as we see him on the Altgens Photo). You claim Lovelady was filmed waiting to get inside the TSBD. I have shown you that Shelley and Lovelady gave WC testimony that they went inside the TSBD via the loading dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. Also, Lovelady testified that after going back inside the TSBD via the loading dock, he was then running the elevator as ordered by Truly. If according to you, Lovelady and Shelley spoke with Calvery and then walked down the Elm St Ext only 30 seconds after the kill shot, how did they return to the front of the TSBD in order to "wait" to get inside? The WC Testimony of Lovelady and Shelley destroys your Calvery 30 second claim.
You posted before I'd finished editing my post.
Here it is:
You wrote:
You mention Lovelady standing on the TSBD steps and "exhaling cigarette smoke" while waiting to get inside the TSBD. Maybe what we are seeing was filmed during the 3-4 minutes before he and Shelley spoke with Calvery and then walked down the Elm Street Extension. Which of course defeats your claim that Calvery spoke with Lovelady and Shelley 30 seconds after the kill shot.
. . . . . . . . .
I wrote:
Dear Comrade Storing,
I guess you're not familiar with the John T. Martin, Jr.* and Robert Hughes** clips I was referring to.
Either that, or you think John T. Martin, Jr. and Robert Hughes were standing there, calmly filming the scene on the TSBD steps some three or four minutes after the assassination.
In Lovelady’s HSCA interview, he stated that it took him 20 to 25 minutes to return to the TSBD. He's standing on the steps and smoking in the John Martin clip which was filmed between 12:50 and 1:00.
Ditto the Robert Hughes clip that shows Lovelady standing on the steps and smoking.
-- Tom
PS If you weren't so lazy and/or so averse to experiencing the psychological pain of having your beliefs shattered, you could go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum, plug in the search term "Calvery," and read my and Sandy Larsen's posts there on the subject of the correct identification of headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues (Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, and Karen "Forgetful" Westbrook) in the Zapruder film, and headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and two of those colleagues (Carol "Running Girl" Reed and Karan "Dressed-all-in-White" Hicks) in the Couch-Darnell film.
*Google "Raw footage #17: John Martin Jr.'s film" and go to the 00:00:38 mark.
** Google "Complete Dorman, Hughes, Nix and Jefferies 8 mm Home" and go to the 03:30 mark.
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You posted before I'd finished editing my post.
Here it is:
You wrote:
You mention Lovelady standing on the TSBD steps and "exhaling cigarette smoke" while waiting to get inside the TSBD. Maybe what we are seeing was filmed during the 3-4 minutes before he and Shelley spoke with Calvery and then walked down the Elm Street Extension. Which of course defeats your claim that Calvery spoke with Lovelady and Shelley 30 seconds after the kill shot.
. . . . . . . . .
I wrote:
Dear Comrade Storing,
I guess you're not familiar with the John T. Martin, Jr.* and Robert Hughes clips I was referring to.
Either that, or you think John T. Martin, Jr. and Robert Hughes were standing there, calmly filming the scene on the TSBD steps some three or four minutes after the assassination.
In Lovelady’s HSCA interview, he stated that it took him 20 to 25 minutes to return to the TSBD. He's standing on the steps and smoking in the John Martin clip which was filmed between 12:50 and 13:00.
Ditto the Robert Hughes clip that shows Lovelady standing on the steps and smoking.
-- Tom
PS If you weren't so lazy and/or so averse to experiencing the psychological pain of having your beliefs shattered, you could go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum, plug in the search term "Calvery," and read my and Sandy Larsen's posts there on the subject of the correct identification of headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues (Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, and Karen "Forgetful" Westbrook) in the Zapruder film, and headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and two of those colleagues (Carol "Running Girl" Reed and Karan "Dressed-all-in-White" Hicks) in the Couch-Darnell film.
*Google "Raw footage #17: John Martin Jr.'s film" and go to the 00:00:38 mark.
You're claiming a Lovelady "HSCA INTERVIEW" in which he claims it, "took him about 20-25 minutes to return to the TSBD". I prefer to rely on Sworn Testimony. In his WC Testimony, Lovelady says that he and Shelley walked down to the 1st set of railroad tracks and stayed there for, "just a minute, maybe a minute and a half". They both then immediately entered the dock and then entered the TSBD 1st floor. Lovelady also says that He and Shelley STAYED on the TSBD 1st floor for "30 minutes". So obviously your claim of Lovelady "Waiting" to get inside the TSBD is incorrect. He and Shelley were already inside the TSBD for roughly 30 minutes.
As I said earlier, I have read the Ed Forum Link that was posted.
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You're claiming a Lovelady "HSCA INTERVIEW" in which he claims it, "took him about 20-25 minutes to return to the TSBD". I prefer to rely on Sworn Testimony. In his WC Testimony, Lovelady says that he and Shelley walked down to the 1st set of railroad tracks and stayed there for, "just a minute, maybe a minute and a half". They both then immediately entered the dock and then entered the TSBD 1st floor. Lovelady also says that He and Shelley STAYED on the TSBD 1st floor for "30 minutes". So obviously your claim of Lovelady "Waiting" to get inside the TSBD is incorrect. He and Shelley were already inside the TSBD for roughly 30 minutes.
As I said earlier, I have read the Ed Forum Link that was posted.
Dear Comrade Storing,
The following is from Brian Doyle's "Prayer Woman" Facebook page.
It's his rough transcription summary of Billy Lovelady's two-part HSCA interview which he says Richard Gilbride originally posted at a website that evidently is not allowed to be mentioned here.
I've cleaned up the grammar and vocabulary quite a bit, but I didn't fiddle with the meaning of what he wrote.
Google "Billy Lovelady HSCA Interview Part 1" and "Billy Lovelady HSCA Interview Part 2" if you want to listen to the poor-quality recordings.
"Just after the 29:00 mark in Part 1 of his HSCA interview, Lovelady mentions that a woman “ran up” and said that the President had been hit, and he identifies her as Gloria Calvery. He then says that after Calvery said the President had been hit, “we” left for the railroad yard and implies that they soon came back and went into the building through one of the side entrances the back entrance. Then around the 31:00 mark, he describes the situation inside the building after they got back inside, wondering whether they should go back to work. At the 31:40 mark, the roll call is discussed.
In Part 2, Lovelady says that Truly and “the police officer” (Baker) ran up the steps and he connects this with shots having been fired from the 6th floor and Truly’s and Baker’s investigating it. He says he didn’t know the reason for their ascent at that time, only later. Then Secret Service agents and others came in and wanted to go up to the top floor, so Lovelady took ten to fifteen of them up in one of the freight elevators.
After taking them to the 7th and 5th floors, he takes them to the 6th floor and says that he was standing near the freight elevator when they found the shells. He also states that he witnessed the discovery of rifle from about 50 feet away. He times these finds to 20-25 minutes after his arrival back inside the TSBD.
Around the 08:20 mark he states that the first time he spoke with a law enforcement and had his primary statement taken was at 1:30, one hour after the assassination. The second time was in the evening, and he confirmed that he was in the Altgens-6 photo when some FBI agents showed up at his house at 6 pm.
After that, he is shown a still from the Martin film which shows him on the front steps with his 5 o’clock shadow, and he confirms that it’s him. A voice in the background (Robert Groden) says that this still is from between 8-15 minutes after the assassination. Lovelady is seeing this image for the first time. His wife is present as well and recognizes him in that image. This part is interesting due to the interaction between the interviewer and Lovelady. Sean Murphy posted about Billy Lovelady at the Education Forum in 2013:
'In the first part of his HSCA interview, Billy Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John T. Martin, Jr., film showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the TSBD entrance some 15 minutes post-assassination. Lovelady identifies himself immediately.'
[...]
More Doyle (paraphrased):
"The biggest revelation is saved until the very last, at 29:20. When Lovelady was asked by the HSCA lawyer how many minutes after the final shot he reentered the TSBD, he said '20-25 minutes.' So, when he was 'captured' on film standing and smoking on the front steps in the Martin and Hughes clips, he evidently hadn't gotten back into the building, yet, which makes you wonder how he and Shelley had gotten back into the building through a side [sic; should have said back] entrance approximately 15 to 20 minutes earlier?"
. . . . . . .
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Thanks for posting that reader's digest version of that HSCA Lovelady interview. You're Not familiar with the layout of that stretch of buildings that runs from the TSBD down to the dock that Lovelady & Shelley entered. If you are standing on the Elm St Ext and facing the TSBD, you would see that TSBD connects to the Huge Gates, which connects to a grocery warehouse, which connects to that dock that Lovelady & Shelley entered. You can enter the dock and then walk straight through into the TSBD. You would enter the TSBD through a Side Door(s). It could have even been a side garage door kinda setup, but the entrance/door was technically on the side of the TSBD. It was close to the freight elevator/stairwell. Officer Luke Mooney entered the TSBD through this same door. Officer Luke Mooney also found the shells/hulls. Based on these claimed "SS Agents" finding the hulls would mean 45 minutes before that happened. Not true. Not even close. My opinion, but this time extension and the Lovelady stuff about being stuck outside the TSBD for an extended time period is being tailored to discredit Adams & Styles coming down the stairwell shortly after the Kill Shot and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there on the 1st Floor. Bottom line, I prefer Sworn Testimony to interviews or reader's digest compilation of an interview. Again, your reading the Lovelady WC Testimony would help you understand what is going on here and behind the curtain.
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Thanks for posting that reader's digest version of that HSCA Lovelady interview. You're Not familiar with the layout of that stretch of buildings that runs from the TSBD down to the dock that Lovelady & Shelley entered. If you are standing on the Elm St Ext and facing the TSBD, you would see that TSBD connects to the Huge Gates, which connects to a grocery warehouse, which connects to that dock that Lovelady & Shelley entered. You can enter the dock and then walk straight through into the TSBD. You would enter the TSBD through a Side Door(s). It could have even been a side garage door kinda setup, but the entrance/door was technically on the side of the TSBD. It was close to the freight elevator/stairwell. Officer Luke Mooney entered the TSBD through this same door. Officer Luke Mooney also found the shells/hulls. Based on these claimed "SS Agents" finding the hulls would mean 45 minutes before that happened. Not true. Not even close. My opinion, but this time extension and the Lovelady stuff about being stuck outside the TSBD for an extended time period is being tailored to discredit Adams & Styles coming down the stairwell shortly after the Kill Shot and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there on the 1st Floor. Bottom line, I prefer Sworn Testimony to interviews or reader's digest compilation of an interview. Again, your reading the Lovelady WC Testimony would help you understand what is going on here and behind the curtain.
Do you deny that Gloria Calvery can be seen standing on, or going up, the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell within 30 seconds of the final shot?
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If you are standing on the Elm Street Extension and facing the TSBD, you would see that TSBD connects to the Huge Gates, which connects to a grocery warehouse, which connects to that dock that Lovelady & Shelley entered. You can enter the dock and then walk straight through into the TSBD. You would enter the TSBD through a Side Door(s). It could have even been a side garage door kinda setup, but the entrance/door was technically on the side of the TSBD. It was close to the freight elevator/stairwell.
That's wonderful, Comrade Storing.
FWIW, in Part 1, Lovelady says at 29:08 that Calvery "came up to them" and told them that the President had been hit. He says at 30:24 that after "the girl" (Calvary) told them that the President had been hit, he and Shelley started running to the railroad tracks, and that when they got there, they saw people running around back there and he and Shelley started wondering what they (he and Shelley) were doing there and implies that they decided to go back to the TSBD. At 30:53 he says that they "came in through the back entrance of the building."
Are you saying that Lovelady lied, and that they actually entered the building though your HUGE GATES on the side of the building?
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That's wonderful, Comrade Storing.
FWIW, in Part 1, Lovelady says at 29:08 that Calvery "came up to them" and told them that the President had been hit. He says at 30:24 that after "the girl" (Calvary) told them that the President had been hit, he and Shelley started running to the railroad tracks, and that when they got there, they saw people running around back there and he and Shelley started wondering what they (he and Shelley) were doing there and implies that they decided to go back to the TSBD. At 30:53 he says that they "came in through the back entrance of the building."
I don't want to be nasty, but you need to read Lovelady's WC Testimony. It explains a lot of what you continue to rehash. He and Shelley did not hesitate to entire that dock after leaving the 1st set of railroad tracks. Also, you are unfamiliar with the layout of those buildings. This is why the "wide open" Huge Gates granting access to the TSBD was a revelation. That entire stretch of buildings was entirely torn down with a parking lot now filling that space. Probably intentionally done to confuse/fool people such as yourself.
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The "wide open" Huge Gates granting access to the TSBD was a revelation.
Are you saying that Lovelady lied, and that he and Shelley actually entered the building though your HUGE GATES on the side of the building a couple of minutes after the final shot?
How is it that Lovelady was filmed by Martin and Hughes as he was standing on the steps and smoking after the police had secured the building and weren't letting employees back in?
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Are you saying that Lovelady lied, and that he and Shelley actually entered the building though your HUGE GATES on the side of the building a couple of minutes after the final shot?
How is it that Lovelady was filmed by Martin and Hughes as he was standing on the steps and smoking after the police had secured the building and weren't letting employees back in?
Not saying that at all. People, (you included), are not familiar with that stretch of buildings. This is why you are unable to comprehend the WC Testimony of Lovelady, and why you arrive at an erroneous conclusion as to WHEN Lovelady and Shelly entered the TSBD 1st Floor. Even WHERE they entered that stretch of buildings. Remember, YOU are claiming it took Lovelady 30 minutes to enter the TSBD 1st Floor. That displays: (1) You do not know Lovelady's WC Testimony, and (2) the layout of those buildings stretching down from the TSBD. I did the deep dive research. Took the time. I highly recommend that you do likewise. Then, we can discuss this on an equal footing. And this is a very important issue as it also impacts the Styles & Adams issue of when they were coming Down the stairwell.
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Not saying that at all. People, (you included), are not familiar with that stretch of buildings. This is why you are unable to comprehend the WC Testimony of Lovelady, and why you arrive at an erroneous conclusion as to WHEN Lovelady and Shelly entered the TSBD 1st Floor. Even WHERE they entered that stretch of buildings. Remember, YOU are claiming it took Lovelady 30 minutes to enter the TSBD 1st Floor. That displays: (1) You do not know Lovelady's WC Testimony, and (2) the layout of those buildings stretching down from the TSBD. I did the deep dive research. Took the time. I highly recommend that you do likewise. Then, we can discuss this on an equal footing. And this is a very important issue as it also impacts the Styles & Adams issue of when they were coming Down the stairwell.
Dear Comrade Storing,
What I'm saying is that Shelley intercepted Calvery at the "island" about ten seconds after the final shot, Shelley and Lovelady can be seen walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about fifteen seconds later in Couch-Darnell, Calvery's colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed, can be seen running past them towards the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, Officer Baker can be seen running towards the front steps in Couch-Darnell, Roy Truly can be seen standing in front of the steps and watching Baker run past him in Couch-Darnell, Gloria Calvery can be seen standing on, or going up, the steps next to her colleague -- Karan Hicks or Carol Reed -- in Couch-Darnell, and that all of these things, except for the first one (the earliest one), were "captured" in Couch-Darnell.
Do any of these Darnell-Couch-supported facts conflict with your grandiose CT?
If so, which ones, and why?
Do you even have one?
-- Tom
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(1) You continue to claim that we are seeing Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St. Ext. As if this were a Fact. There is absolutely Zero Proof that those "figures" are Lovelady and Shelley.
(2) The BACK of that individual in front of the TSBD remains an unknown person. You continue slapping Calvery's name onto that BACK, but again, there is Zero Proof of this being a Fact.
You're trying to pass off Speculated ID's as being fact. I proffer the Lovelady WC Sworn Testimony (4/7/64), with respect to his going straight from the railroad tracks into the dock/TSBD and staying inside there for roughly 30 minutes.
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I proffer the Lovelady WC Sworn Testimony (4/7/64), with respect to his going straight from the railroad tracks into the dock/TSBD and staying inside there for roughly 30 minutes.
It seems that you want to delay Lovelady's and Shelley's walking/running from the front steps to the railroad tracks until Calvery has come up to them "about three minutes after the assassination" and told them that the President had been shot.
Why is this three-minute period of time so critical to your theory?
Does it have something to do with THE HUGE GATES?
Why does your theory require Lovelady's (and Shelleys?) staying inside the TSBD "for roughly 30 minutes"?
Do you think Lovelady, smoking on the front steps, was filmed by Martin and Hughes 1) before Calvery ran up "about three minutes after the assassination" and told him (and Shelley?) that the President had been shot, or 2) about 35 minutes after the assassination?
FWIW, during Lovelady's HSCA interview, Robert Groden said the Martin frame was shot between 8 and 15 minutes after the assassination."
. . . . . . .
Conversation with Grok:
Me: Did Buell Wesley Frazier say that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery at the base of the TSBD steps before going up Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot?
Grok: No, Buell Wesley Frazier did not state in his Warren Commission testimony or other documented statements that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery at the base of the TSBD steps before heading up Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot. In his Warren Commission testimony, Frazier described standing with Shelley and Lovelady on the steps during the shooting and noted that after the shots, "Billy and them walked down toward that direction" (referring to the underpass area where he believed the sounds originated), while he remained in place. He then mentioned that "right before I went back [into the building], some girl who had walked down a little bit further... came back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy," adding that "she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people." However, Frazier did not identify this girl as Gloria Calvery, did not state that Shelley or Lovelady spoke with her (as they had already begun moving away), and did not reference any specific conversation at the base of the steps involving her before their departure. In later interviews (e.g., a 2013 video excerpt), Frazier similarly referenced an unnamed woman who approached while he was on the steps and said "somebody had shot The President" before Shelley and Lovelady headed toward the triple underpass, but again, he did not name her as Calvery, confirm that Shelley or Lovelady spoke directly with her, or mention Elm Street Extension, the railway yard, or parking lot in that context. Sources analyzing his statements note that Frazier did not know Gloria Calvery's name even months after the event and did not describe her as the woman in question. In contrast, Billy Lovelady's own testimony explicitly mentioned Gloria Calvery approaching the steps and informing them of the shooting before he and Shelley left the area.
Me: How do we know that Shelly and Lovelady had already begun moving away when the girl came up and told some people on the steps that the president had been shot?
Grok: We know that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady had already begun moving away when the unnamed girl approached and informed people on the steps that the president had been shot based primarily on Buell Wesley Frazier’s Warren Commission testimony and related statements. In his testimony, Frazier described the sequence of events as follows: He was standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) with Shelley and Lovelady during the shooting.
After hearing the shots, which he initially thought came from the direction of the triple underpass, he noted that "Billy and them walked down toward that direction" (referring to Shelley and Lovelady moving toward the underpass area).
Frazier remained on the steps, and it was only after Shelley and Lovelady had started moving away that he recalled a girl, who had walked further down, coming back and saying, "Somebody had shot President Kennedy," addressing several people in a low, hollering voice.
This timeline indicates that Shelley and Lovelady had already begun moving toward the underpass before the girl’s return and announcement. Frazier’s account does not suggest that Shelley or Lovelady were still on the steps or engaged in a conversation with this girl when she delivered the news. Additionally, in a 2013 interview, Frazier reiterated a similar sequence, stating that after the shots, Shelley and Lovelady headed toward the triple underpass, and then a woman (unnamed) approached the steps, informing him and others that the president had been shot. Supporting this, Billy Lovelady’s own Warren Commission testimony aligns with the idea that he and Shelley left the steps shortly after the shooting, prompted by Gloria Calvery’s information (though Frazier did not identify her by name). Lovelady stated that Calvery ran up to the steps, said the president had been shot, and then he and Shelley walked toward the railroad tracks, consistent with Frazier’s observation of their movement before the girl’s announcement to the group on the steps. The clarity of this sequence relies on Frazier’s consistent description of Shelley and Lovelady departing before the girl’s return, as well as Lovelady’s corroborating account of their actions post-shooting.
[...]
Me: I want to correct something you said earlier in this conversation: Although the concrete island is on a direct path from Calvery's estimated position on Elm Street to the TSBD steps, it's not near the triple underpass.
Grok: Thank you for the correction. You’re right that the concrete island (often referred to as the traffic island or median in Dealey Plaza) is not near the triple underpass but is instead closer to the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps, positioned along Elm Street between the TSBD and the triple underpass. Let’s clarify its location and reassess the scenario to ensure accuracy, addressing whether William Shelley and Billy Lovelady could have walked 40 yards down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot within 25 seconds of the final shot, intercepting Gloria Calvery at the concrete island (30 feet from the TSBD steps) after she ran from her position approximately 50 yards away.
Clarification of the Concrete Island’s Location
Corrected Position: The concrete island is a small median or traffic island in Dealey Plaza, located on Elm Street, roughly 30–40 feet west of the TSBD steps, near the intersection of Elm, Main, and Commerce Streets. It is not adjacent to the triple underpass, which is further west (approximately 100–150 yards from the TSBD). The island is on a direct path from Calvery’s estimated position (near the Stemmons Freeway sign, about 50 yards from the TSBD steps) to the TSBD entrance, making it a plausible point for Shelley and Lovelady to intercept her.
Implication: The concrete island’s proximity to the TSBD (30 feet, as specified) means Shelley and Lovelady’s initial movement is short, and their subsequent path down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot begins closer to the TSBD than the underpass. Elm Street Extension runs alongside the TSBD, leading toward the railroad tracks and parking lot, which are west/southwest of the TSBD.
Revised Scenario
Starting Point: Shelley and Lovelady are on the TSBD steps during the shooting.
Post-Shooting: After the final shot, they walk 30 feet to the concrete island (not near the triple underpass but near the TSBD on Elm Street), where they intercept Gloria Calvery, who has run approximately 50 yards (150 feet) from her position near the Stemmons Freeway sign.
Action: They learn from Calvery that the president has been shot and then proceed 40 yards (120 feet) down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot.
Time Constraint: All occurs within 25 seconds of the final shot.
Key Distances and Timing
Distances:
TSBD Steps to Concrete Island: 30 feet (10 yards), as specified.
Calvery’s Position to Concrete Island:
Calvery starts 50 yards (150 feet) from the TSBD steps. The concrete island, 30 feet from the steps, is approximately 120 feet from her starting point (150 – 30 = 120 feet).
Concrete Island to 40 Yards Down Elm Street Extension:
40 yards (120 feet) from the island toward the railway yard or parking lot, along Elm Street Extension.
Total Distance for Shelley and Lovelady: 30 feet + 120 feet = 150 feet (50 yards).
Speeds
Walking Speed: Brisk walking speed is 3–4 mph, or 4.4–5.9 feet per second (fps). Use 5 fps for Shelley and Lovelady.
Calvery’s Running Speed: Moderate running speed is 6–8 mph, or 8.8–11.7 fps. Use 10 fps for Calvery.
Interaction Time: Assume 3 seconds for Calvery’s brief announcement (“The president’s been shot!”).
Timeline Breakdown:0–3 Seconds:
Reaction to the final shot (processing, deciding to move). Buell Wesley Frazier’s testimony suggests Shelley and Lovelady moved toward the underpass area shortly after the shots.
3–9 Seconds:
Shelley and Lovelady walk 30 feet to the concrete island (30 ÷ 5 = 6 seconds + 3 seconds reaction = 9 seconds).
9–12 Seconds:
Calvery runs 120 feet to the island (120 ÷ 10 = 12 seconds, assuming immediate start; with a 2–3 second delay, arrival could be 14–15 seconds). Interaction takes 3 seconds. Assume they meet at 9–12 seconds, with Calvery arriving slightly earlier or simultaneously. Billy Lovelady’s testimony supports her informing them of the shooting.
12–25 Seconds:
Shelley and Lovelady cover 40 yards (120 feet) down Elm Street Extension in the remaining 13 seconds (25 – 12 = 13 seconds).At 5 fps (brisk walk), 120 feet takes 24 seconds (too long).
At 6 fps (very brisk walk, ~4.1 mph), 120 feet takes 20 seconds (too long).
At 10 fps (jog, ~6.8 mph), 120 feet takes 12 seconds, fitting within 13 seconds.
Feasibility AnalysisTotal Time:0–3 seconds:
Reaction.
3–9 seconds: Walk 30 feet to the island.
9–12 seconds: Interact with Calvery (3 seconds).
12–24 seconds: Jog 40 yards (120 feet) in 12 seconds at 10 fps.
Impact of Corrected Location:
The concrete island’s position closer to the TSBD (30 feet from the steps, not near the triple underpass) aligns with its actual location in Dealey Plaza and remains on Calvery’s direct path from her position to the TSBD steps. This correction does not significantly alter the timeline, as the island’s proximity to the TSBD was already assumed (30 feet). The key is that Elm Street Extension, running alongside the TSBD, leads toward the railway yard and parking lot, consistent with Shelley and Lovelady’s stated direction.
Challenges:The 25-second timeline requires a jogging pace (10 fps, ~6.8 mph) for the 40 yards, as a brisk walk (5–6 fps) takes 20–24 seconds, exceeding the 13 seconds available. Shelley and Lovelady’s testimonies describe “walking,” but in the post-shooting chaos, a hurried pace or jog is plausible.
Calvery’s timing (120 feet in 12–15 seconds) assumes a prompt start. A 2–3 second delay could push her arrival to 14–15 seconds, tightening the subsequent movement window.
Supporting Factors:
The 30-foot distance to the island allows Shelley and Lovelady to reach it quickly (6 seconds walking + 3 seconds reaction).
Calvery’s path (120 feet to the island) aligns with her running from 50 yards away, and Lovelady’s testimony confirms her informing them of the shooting, supporting an encounter at the island.
The urgency after Calvery’s news likely prompted a faster pace, making a jog feasible.
Frazier’s account of their quick movement toward the underpass area (though not the island’s exact location) supports rapid action.
Conclusion
Yes, it is feasible for Shelley and Lovelady to have walked 40 yards down Elm Street Extension within 25 seconds of the final shot, with the concrete island 30 feet from the TSBD steps and correctly positioned near the TSBD (not near the triple underpass). The timeline requires:3–9 seconds: Walk 30 feet to the island.
9–12 seconds: Interact with Calvery (3 seconds).
12–24 seconds: Jog 40 yards (120 feet) in 12 seconds at 10 fps (~6.8 mph).
The corrected location of the concrete island reinforces its role as a logical interception point on Calvery’s path to the TSBD. The scenario hinges on Shelley and Lovelady jogging rather than walking for the 40-yard leg, which is plausible given the urgency and consistent with their movement toward the railway yard or parking lot as described in their testimonies.
. . . . . .
My comment: Although the Shelly figure in Couch-Darnell appears to be walking and the Lovelady figure doesn't appear to start running until "Running Girl" passes them, Lovelady said in his HSCA interview that after he and Shelly spoke with Calvery, they "started running" down Elm Street Extension towards the "rail lines."
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I am relying on the WC Testimony of Lovelady himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. HE supplies the 3-4 minutes. HE also supplies the 30 minute figure. I have nothing to do with those numbers. I'm not guessing like your ID of those 2 figures moving down the Elm St Ext. Or the BACK ID of a figure facing the TSBD. And based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's just not realistic.
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I am relying on the WC Testimony of Lovelady himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. HE supplies the 3-4 minutes. HE also supplies the 30 minute figure. I have nothing to do with those numbers. I'm not guessing like your ID of those 2 figures moving down the Elm St Ext. Or the BACK ID of a figure facing the TSBD. And based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's just not realistic.
Royell Storing,
You wrote: "Based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only ten seconds after the kill shot."
Please try to get something straight for a change.
The only thing I'm saying happened within about ten seconds of the "kill shot" was "best man" Shelley's intercepting his crying friend, Gloria Calvery (who had been standing only about 80 feet down Elm Street from the "island"), at or near said "island" as she was running towards the steps, where, interestingly, Frazier saw and heard a girl (Calvery!) come up to the steps and bellow out that the President had been shot. This sequence was confirmed by Frazier when he said Shelley and Lovelady started going in the direction of the triple underpass before the girl (Calvery!) arrived at the steps and started bellowing.
And IIRC, Shelley, himself, said that he and Lovelady went to a "little, old island" after the "kill shot."
A little bit later during the general front-of-the-TSBD part of the Couch-Darnell clip, we can see Officer Baker running towards the steps, Truly, pivoting and watching him run by, Calvery, as she and one of her colleagues are standing on (or going up) the steps, and Shelley and Lovelady, as they're . . . gasp . . . approaching your HUGE GATES as they're walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 25 seconds after the "kill shot."
-- Tom
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Yes, both Lovelady and Shelley claim they crossed the Elm St Ext and went to that "little old island". What you have omitted is they claimed they did this 3-4 minutes AFTER the Kill Shot. If you are going to use eyewitness testimony to support a position you are taking, please present it within the Entire context of which it was given.
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Yes, both Lovelady and Shelley claim they crossed the Elm St Ext and went to that "little old island". What you have omitted is they claimed they did this 3-4 minutes AFTER the Kill Shot. If you are going to use eyewitness testimony to support a position you are taking, please present it within the entire context of which it was given.
Royell Storing,
Lovelady and Shelley said "three minutes" because they either had really poor memories or they were part-and-parcel of The Deep State Conspiracy (which obviously involved oodles and gobs of evil, evil bad guys who planned "the hit," "patsied" Oswald, shot JFK, planted false evidence, got away, altered oodles and gobs of photos, films, x-rays, and documents, and have succeeded in covering up The Conspiracy for sixty-two years now.
But don't you worry -- Laura Loony, Jim "I Never Met A Communist I Didn't Cherish" DiEugenio, Jefferson "Yuri Nosenko Was A True Defector!!!" Morley, and Oliver "I Hate The Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex" Stone are going to get to the bottom of it!
Regardless, I edited my previous post.
Here it is:
Royell Storing,
You wrote: "Based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only ten seconds after the kill shot."
Please try to get something straight for a change, Royell.
The only thing I'm saying that happened within about ten seconds of the "kill shot" was "best man" Shelley's intercepting his crying friend, Gloria Calvery (who had been standing only about 80 feet down Elm Street from the "island"), at or near said "island" as she was running towards the steps -- where, interestingly, Frazier saw and heard a girl (Calvery!) come up to them (the steps) a few seconds later and bellow out that the President had been shot. This sequence was confirmed by Frazier when he said Shelley and Lovelady started going in the direction of the triple underpass before the girl (Calvery!) arrived at the steps and started bellowing. (Hint: The "island" lies between the steps and the triple underpass.)
And iirc, Shelley, himself, said that he and Lovelady went to a "little, old island" after the "kill shot," but got confused as to whether they did that about ten seconds after the "kill shot," or 3 or 15 minutes after it.
A little bit later, during the 10-second-long front-of-the-TSBD Couch-Darnell clip, we can see Officer Baker running towards the steps; Roy Truly, pivoting and watching him run by; Gloria Calvery, as she and one of her colleagues are standing on (or going up) the steps; Buell Wesley Frazier, evidently listening to Calvery as she bellows out "THEY SHOT THE PRESIDENT"; and Shelley and Lovelady, as they're . . . gasp . . . approaching your HUGE GATES while walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 25 seconds after the aforementioned "kill shot."
-- Tom
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I continue urging you to actually read the WC Testimonies of Lovelady & Shelley. Shelley and Lovelady were Not walking down the Elm Ext on the TSBD side of the street. It's FACTS such as this that continue to disprove your False ID's.
If Calvery is walking down Elm St toward the TSBD only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot, she should be somewhere on the Wiegman Film as he jumps out of Camera Car #1 as it makes the turn onto Elm St. Calvery would be facing Wiegman as he moves down Elm St. And her size and the direction she is headed would stand out. Just as we see from that Professional Woman that was standing next to Mumford. Remember, we do see the JFK Limo as it is going under the Triple Underpass on the Wiegman Film. Tick, Tock!
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Shelley and Lovelady were not walking down the Elm Street Extension on the TSBD side of the street.
Well, either Shelley and Lovelady or their Deep State "doubles."
If Calvery is walking (sic) down (sic) Elm Street toward the TSBD only ten seconds after the kill shot, she should be somewhere on the Wiegman film as he jumps out of camera car #1 as it makes the turn onto Elm Street.
Weigman jumps out of the car about seven seconds after the final shot and either points his camera at the ground or twirls it all around during the period of time that Calvery was running past him.
Remember, we do see the JFK limo as it is going under the triple underpass on the Wiegman film.
Nice catch!
. . . . . . .
By the way, I just watched the Tyler synchronized animation, again.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg
In it, plus or minus a second, the following things happen:
Calvery starts running towards the TSBD three seconds after the final shot, she reaches the "island" twelve seconds after the final shot, she finishes talking with Lovelady in the middle of the street twenty-two seconds after the final shot (Shelley is nowhere to be found), and she arrives at the steps twenty-five seconds after the final shot.
Baker arrives at the curb on his motorcycle fourteen seconds after the final shot, he starts running towards the steps 23 seconds after the final shot, he arrives at the steps thirty-one seconds after the final shot, and he reaches the front door thirty-three seconds after the final shot.
Lovelady kinda hangs out in the middle of the street, drifting slowly all by himself in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot for two minutes and thirty-eight seconds after the final shot, at which time the animation ends at a total elapsed time of five minutes.
Bottom line: I was wrong, wrong, wrong.
Calvery didn't reach the "island" in ten seconds after the final shot, she reached it in twelve seconds after the final shot.
*Caveat: I think Tyler has Calvery about twenty feet too close to the TSBD during the motorcade, so let's say she reached the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot, okay?
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You do realize you are not watching actual assassination film footage? You are watching a visual aid cartoon.
We still have no idea how it is that we are seeing Lovelady blowing smoke on the steps of the TSBD. Their testimony is that they were inside the TSBD for 30 minutes. The Martin Film was part of the DCA film package. Maybe the Martin Film was mixed with other assassination footage then? Whether accidental or intentional, Groden did do this with the Couch Film and the Darnell Film.
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You do realize you are not watching actual assassination film footage? You are watching a visual aid cartoon.
I hope you're referring to the animation by Tyler and not to the clips by Couch and Darnell, themselves. If so, gee, I didn't realize that. If not, then there's even less hope for you than I thought.
We still have no idea how it is that we are seeing Lovelady blowing smoke on the steps of the TSBD. Their testimony is that they were inside the TSBD for 30 minutes.
Agreed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that something sinister was going on at the time.
Edit: Grok says there were no DPD radio transmissions on the subject, but witnesses like Roy Truly and Jack Dougherty testified that the police started letting TSBD employees back into the building around 1 o'clock.
The John T. Martin / Jack T. Martin clip shows the police letting Bonnie Ray Williams back into the building while "Neanterthal" Lovelady is standing on the steps, wearing his distinctive "checkered" / "plaid" shirt, watching "the action" and jutting his jaw out as he exhales some cigarette smoke.
Scroll down about halfway to watch a good, properly exposed copy of the aforementioned John T. Martin / Jack T. Martin clip.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
I figure Lovelady, desperately needing a shot of nicotine after being cooped up inside since around 12:35, stepped out onto the front steps to have a quick "fix."
That works for you, doesn't it?
The Martin Film was part of the DCA film package. Maybe the Martin Film was mixed with other assassination footage then?
Point being?
Whether accidental or intentional, Groden did do this with the Couch Film and the Darnell Film.
Did do what?
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I hope you're referring to the animation by Tyler and not to the clips by Couch and Darnell, themselves. If so, gee, I didn't realize that. If not, then there's even less hope for you than I thought.
Agreed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that something sinister was going on at the time.
Edit: Grok says there were no DPD radio transmissions on the subject, but witnesses like Roy Truly and Jack Dougherty testified that the police started letting TSBD employees back into the building around 1 o'clock.
The John T. Martin / Jack T. Martin clip shows the police letting Bonnie Ray Williams back into the building while "Neanterthal" Lovelady is standing on the steps, wearing his distinctive "checkered" / "plaid" shirt, watching "the action" and jutting his jaw out as he exhales some cigarette smoke.
Scroll down about halfway to watch a good, properly exposed copy of the aforementioned John T. Martin / Jack T. Martin clip.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
I figure Lovelady, desperately needing a shot of nicotine after being cooped up inside since around 12:35, stepped out onto the front steps to have a quick "fix."
That works for you, doesn't it?
Point being?
Did do what?
So we are just to "move along" when the Lovelady timeline with respect to his being out on the steps smoking is unexplainable? Again, the Lovelady timeline impacts the Adams & Styles timeline. And the word smiths are hoodwinking you. "LETTING TSBD employees back into the building around 1 o'clock"? How about employees that simply walked into the TSBD BEFORE 1'oclock? Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony detailed his entering the TSBD 1st Floor via the Huge Gates/TSBD side door. He was then immediately approached by 2 ladies needing to go up to the 2nd floor. Mooney was inside that building only minutes after the Kill Shot. Same goes for those 2 ladies already being inside the TSBD. That 1 o'clock stuff is misdirection/hog wash. This is why I urge you to read testimony. Those that do Not know eyewitness testimony are easily led astray. Those that are also unfamiliar with the layout of Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, are lambs being led to the slaughter. I believe you mean well, but remember that knowledge is power. Do the deep dive research. Read the eyewitness testimony and examine every single 11/22/63 image of Dealey Plaza you can find. This includes the railroad yard. And do you think these guys such as Lovelady were Not smoking inside the TSBD? Stop kidding yourself. How many cops did you see inside the TSBD with a cigarette hanging outta their mouths? This was 1963 and even smoking inside stuffy movie theaters was common conduct.
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So we are just to "move along" when the Lovelady timeline with respect to his being out on the steps smoking is unexplainable? Again, the Lovelady timeline impacts the Adams & Styles timeline. And the word smiths are hoodwinking you. "LETTING TSBD employees back into the building around 1 o'clock"? How about employees that simply walked into the TSBD BEFORE 1'oclock? Officer Luke Mooney's WC Testimony detailed his entering the TSBD 1st Floor via the Huge Gates/TSBD side door. He was then immediately approached by 2 ladies needing to go up to the 2nd floor. Mooney was inside that building only minutes after the Kill Shot. Same goes for those 2 ladies already being inside the TSBD. That 1 o'clock stuff is misdirection/hog wash. This is why I urge you to read testimony. Those that do Not know eyewitness testimony are easily led astray. Those that are also unfamiliar with the layout of Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, are lambs being led to the slaughter. I believe you mean well, but remember that knowledge is power. Do the deep dive research. Read the eyewitness testimony and examine every single 11/22/63 image of Dealey Plaza you can find. This includes the railroad yard.
Dear Comrade Storing,
I thought you were wondering why Lovelady, wearing his distinctive "checkered" / "plaid" shirt, was standing on the TSBD steps around one o'clock as the police were letting TSBD employees back into the building.
My bad.
Regarding Adams and Styles, Brian Doyle posted on his website some time ago that he had a two-hour conversation with Barry Ernest during which Ernest told him that he'd interviewed Styles and that Styles was adamant that she did not see Lovelady or Shelley by the first-floor stairs when she and Adams got there.
Doyle also wrote, "Ernest said he interviewed Baker, and Baker told him the only person on the first floor when they got back to the elevators was a black person whom Truly stopped him from questioning ... Adams and Styles said the same thing."
If that's the case, it must have been because it took Adams and Styles a lot longer to get to the first floor than they remembered, and Baker and Truly (whom we can surmise from the Couch-Darnell clip entered the TSBD about 30 seconds after the final shot) must have been having their little out-of-view-in-the-second-floor-lunchroom-"vestibule" confrontation with Oswald when Adams and Styles finally hit the second floor . . . and were on it for maybe three seconds.
-- Tom
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You do know that the WC did 3 trial runs with Officer Baker riding his motorcycle from Main to Houston and then entering the TSBD BEFORE he testified? This is how important it was to put Baker quickly inside the TSBD in order for him to eventually see Oswald through that vestibule door. And Baker had to know this too. He's no dummy. I believe the recently released first half of the Original Darnell Film throws numerous previously accepted timelines into question. That Original Darnell Film opens with the Camera Cars atta Dead Stop as they were turning onto Elm, and 1 driver is standing outside the car. This tells us the Officer Baker/Truly being inside the TSBD in 30 second stuff is BS:. This lengthy slowing/then stopping of the camera cars also impacts the accepted timelines of the Darnell and Couch Films, which also impacts the timeline of Officer Smith being filmed running down the Elm St Ext. And why are we seeing all of these timeline/dominoes fall? Just my opinion, but I believe it is because Wiegman filmed the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass. It took the JFK Limo more time after the Kill Shot to travel down to the Triple Underpass than has been foisted on us. Which brings us to the Limo Stop or prolonged rolling stop/crawl.
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You do know that the WC did 3 trial runs with Officer Baker riding his motorcycle from Main to Houston and then entering the TSBD before he testified? This is how important it was to put Baker quickly inside the TSBD in order for him to eventually see Oswald through that vestibule door. And Baker had to know this, too. He's no dummy. I believe the recently released first half of the Original Darnell Film throws numerous previously accepted timelines into question. That original Darnell film opens with the camera cars at a dead stop as they were turning onto Elm, and one driver is standing outside the car. This tells us the Officer Baker/Truly being inside the TSBD in 30 seconds stuff is [XX]. This lengthy slowing/then stopping of the camera cars also impacts the accepted timelines of the Darnell and Couch films, which also impacts the timeline of Officer Smith's being filmed running down the Elm Street Extension. And why are we seeing all of these timeline/dominoes fall? Just my opinion, but I believe it is because Wiegman filmed the JFK limo going under the Triple Underpass. It took the JFK limo more time after the kill shot to travel down to the triple underpass than has been foisted on us. Which brings us to the limo stop or prolonged rolling stop/crawl.
Dear Comrade Storing,
You wrote, "I believe the recently released first half of the Original Darnell Film throws numerous previously accepted timelines into question. That original Darnell film opens with the camera cars at a dead stop as they were turning onto Elm Street, and one driver is standing outside the car."
Have you ever noticed how I almost always post the "links" to videos I refer to in my text?
Are you incapable of doing that?
-- Tom
Edit:
Regarding the "recently released" version of the Darnell film you must be talking about, the following is what Gerald Posner posted about it five months ago on Twitter:
Time for a dose of reality.
This 👇is the supposedly smoking gun video that @RepLuna said last night had "never been seen before" and "could blow open the entire JFK investigation."
Luna said she learned about it from Oliver Stone and said the video "shows Oswald near the vehicle [JFK's limo] when the assassination took place, which means he couldn't have been the shooter." And she told a credulous Jesse Watters, NBC had been "very, very much guarding this tape."
A small problem.
It is NOT a secret video that has never been seen. It is available for anyone to watch at the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas (or on their YouTube channel). What Rep. Luna is referring to is a clip of a film taken by Jimmy Darnell, an NBC affiliate cameraman who had been riding in the "press camera cars" behind the motorcade. He, and three other cameramen had jumped out of their car after the shots and started filming about 30 seconds AFTER the assassination.
Darnell's film shows Dallas police officer Marrion Baker running to the front door of the Texas School Book Depository, and past the TSBD's supervisor, Roy Truly, both of whom would encounter Oswald in less than another 30 seconds, on the second floor. Oswald was on his way out of the building, having come down from the sixth floor after the shooting. Truly vouched for Oswald and Baker let him go.
Some conspiracy theorists think that a few seconds in the Darnell film shows a figure on the far-left side of the front of the Texas School Book Depository they believe is Oswald. The figure has been dubbed prayer man, some say because of the way he has his arms crossed in front of him, while others think the conjecture is the equivalent of a conspiracy Hail Mary prayer long shot.
For those not into the weeds on the JFK assassination, this is not the first time that a film or photo has been used to try and exonerate Oswald. For many years, conspiracy theorists contended that Oswald was visible in one of the pictures taken by James Altgens, an AP photographer at the scene. Oswald, they contended, was the fuzzy figure in a white t-shirt standing to the left entrance of the TSBD. That was in fact one of Oswald's coworkers, Billy Lovelady. Even AFTER Lovelady identified himself as the person in the photo, some conspiracy theorists refused to believe him.
Oliver Stone and others have now turned to the Darnell film and the person standing to the left of Lovelady. Maybe that is Oswald. It is not even clear from the fuzzy image if it is absolutely a white man. It could even be a light-colored black or Latin person. But to Stone and Luna and others, it is Oswald.
Thirteen of Oswald’s work colleagues were standing at the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository. They were there to watch the motorcade. Not one of them remembers seeing Oswald there.
That has not stopped the conspiracy theorists, who claim the clothing on the unidentified man looks like what Oswald wore when he was arrested after killing Dallas police officer J.D. Tippit. Ten other Texas School Book Depository employees wore shirts like the one on “prayer man.”
The entire exercise might as well be a Rorschach inkblot test. That is what happened before in the case, for instance, with a half-inch square portion of Mary Moorman’s badly faded Polaroid taken a split second after the assassination. Conspiracy theorists enhanced it and blew it up and thought they had found the image of the phantom second shooter on the Grassy Knoll, someone they dubbed “badgeman.” They claimed that greatly enlarged pixels identified a rifle and a Dallas police uniform. The enhanced photo only shows shadows and trees, no person, no shooter.
Now, Oliver Stone and others believe the only thing preventing an ironclad identification of Oswald in the Darnell film is that they do not have the original first-generation. The Sixth Floor Museum version is a second-generation print of the film that the Museum acquired as part of a personal collection in 2006.
No one is certain if a first-generation version exists, but the guess by Luna and Stone is that it must be somewhere in the long-lost archives at NBC. Not quite the same as NBC having, as Rep. Luna claimed, “very, very much guarding it.”
I hope that the Oversight Committee gets the original Darnell video. Many of us would like to see the clearest possible version of the frenetic scenes that played out in the minutes after the assassination. For those, however, who think it will be dispositive and exculpatory evidence that Oswald was hanging out at the front of the School Book Depository, good luck. That story might earn a headline in the National Enquirer or the Daily Mail. It should not be the ‘breaking news’ from the congresswoman leading the new investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy.
https://x.com/geraldposner/status/1905998079112745239
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I believe the recently released first half of the Original Darnell Film throws numerous previously accepted timelines into question. That Original Darnell Film opens with the Camera Cars atta Dead Stop as they were turning onto Elm, and one driver is standing outside the car. This tells us the Officer Baker/Truly being inside the TSBD in 30 second stuff is [XX]. This lengthy slowing/then stopping of the camera cars also impacts the accepted timelines of the Darnell and Couch Films, which also impacts the timeline of Officer Smith being filmed running down the Elm Street Extension.
Dear Comrade Storing,
At the very beginning of this "recently released" version of the Darnell clip, you do see a motorcycle parked to the right of the car, don't you, and you do see the white helmet of Officer Baker as he starts running towards the TSBD from the "island"?
You don't think he arrived at the curb on his motorcycle about 12 seconds after the final shot, parked his bike, looked around, and started running towards the TSBS about ten seconds later?
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
At the very beginning of this "recently released" version of the Darnell clip, you do see a motorcycle parked to the right of the car, don't you, and you do see the white helmet of Officer Baker as he starts running towards the TSBD from the "island"?
You don't think he arrived at the curb on his motorcycle about 12 seconds after the final shot, parked his bike, looked around, and started running towards the TSBS about ten seconds later?
-- Tom
Officer Baker allegedly thought there was an active shooter atop the TSBD due to his seeing pigeons flying from the rooftop after shots were fired. Yet, he does Not ride his motorcycle right up to the front of the TSBD? He turns onto Elm St, props his motorcycle up, and as you claim looks around before heading toward the TSBD with that active shooter inside? And with an active shooter inside the TSBD, he then encounters Oswald and Fails to even "pat" Oswald down? Officer Baker's story is riddled with inconsistencies.
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Officer Baker allegedly thought there was an active shooter atop the TSBD due to his seeing pigeons flying from the rooftop after shots were fired. Yet, he does Not ride his motorcycle right up to the front of the TSBD? He turns onto Elm St, props his motorcycle up, and as you claim looks around before heading toward the TSBD with that active shooter inside? And with an active shooter inside the TSBD, he then encounters Oswald and Fails to even "pat" Oswald down? Officer Baker's story is riddled with inconsistencies.
Comrade Storing,
Why do you think Baker parked his motorcycle where he did?
To help the evil, evil CIA's sniper escape through THE HUGE GATES?
-- Tom
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Comrade Storing,
Why do you think Baker parked his motorcycle where he did?
To help the evil, evil CIA's sniper escape through THE HUGE GATES?
-- Tom
This recent "stuff" about Calvery also telling Officer Smith about shots being fired through the bushes is damaging your Calvery Case. 1 person can only do so much within seconds after witnessing a POTUS getting his head exploded.
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Officer Baker allegedly thought there was an active shooter atop the TSBD due to his seeing pigeons flying from the rooftop after shots were fired. Yet, he does Not ride his motorcycle right up to the front of the TSBD? He turns onto Elm St, props his motorcycle up, and as you claim looks around before heading toward the TSBD with that active shooter inside? And with an active shooter inside the TSBD, he then encounters Oswald and Fails to even "pat" Oswald down? Officer Baker's story is riddled with inconsistencies.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you think Officer Baker was part of THE CONSPIRACY?
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Do you think Officer Baker was part of THE CONSPIRACY?
-- Tom
So prior to telling Lovelady about JFK being shot, Calvery stopped and talked with Officer Smith? And then somehow Calvery gets to the TSBD Steps BEFORE Smith can even be seen running past? This scenario is DOA.
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So, prior to telling Lovelady about JFK being shot, Calvery stopped and talked with Officer Smith? And then somehow Calvery gets to the TSBD Steps before Smith can even be seen running past? This scenario is DOA.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Please freshen my memory.
When have I said anything about Officer Smith's actions in the context of Gloria Calvery's post-final-shot actions?
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Please freshen my memory.
When have I said anything about Officer Smith's actions in the context of Gloria Calvery's post-final-shot actions?
-- Tom
So where exactly where do you stand on this issue? You know the tick-tock does not permit Calvery encountering both Lovelady and Officer Smith.
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So where exactly where do you stand on this issue? You know the tick-tock does not permit Calvery encountering both Lovelady and Officer Smith.
Dear Comrade Storing,
By comparing the witnesses' statements with the combined Couch-Darnell clip and Mark Tyler's DPD-radio-transmissions-and-photographic-images-synchronized animation, it seems plausible to me that Calvery could have been intercepted simultaneously by "best man" Shelley (with or without his sidekick, Lovelady) and Officer Smith 10-15 seconds after the final shot and given them the news that JFK had been shot before she continued on her way, about ten seconds later, to the TSBD steps . . . where we can see her in Couch-Darnell as she's very likely bellowing out to Buell Wesley Frazier, Sarah Stanton and bald-headed Joe Molina (whom I believe is right in front of her), et al., the bad news.
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
By comparing the witnesses' statements with the combined Couch-Darnell clip and Mark Tyler's DPD-radio-transmissions-and-photographic-images-synchronized animation, it seems plausible to me that Calvery could have been intercepted simultaneously by "best man" Shelley (with or without his sidekick, Lovelady) and Officer Smith 10-15 seconds after the final shot and given them the news that JFK had been shot before she continued on her way, about ten seconds later, to the TSBD steps . . . where we can see her in Couch-Darnell as she's very likely bellowing out to Buell Wesley Frazier, Sarah Stanton and bald-headed Joe Molina (whom I believe is right in front of her), et al., the bad news.
-- Tom
(1) What DPD Radio Transmissions impact the possibility of Calvery being the BACK we see on the Darnell Snippet? (2) You originally claimed we were seeing the BACK of Calvery as she was telling Lovelady about seeing JFK being shot. Are you Now claiming we are seeing the back of Calvery as she "bellows" at Frazier at the top of the steps into the TSBD? (3) Do you know of any images showing Shelley being down on the ground in front of the TSBD within your 10 second time stamp? Thanks
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(1) What DPD radio transmissions impact the possibility (sic) of Calvery being the back we see in the Darnell snippet?
(2) You originally claimed we were seeing the back of Calvery as she was telling Lovelady about seeing JFK being shot. Are you Now claiming we are seeing the back of Calvery as she "bellows" at Frazier at the top of the steps into the TSBD?
(3) Do you know of any images showing Shelley being down on the ground in front of the TSBD within your ten-second time stamp?
Dear Comrade Storing,
It's a pity that you're so terribly confused.
1) Several years ago, Sandy Larsen and I identified big/tall (almost as tall as her tall husband!) Gloria Calvery in the Zapruder film and in the Couch-Darnell clip, the latter of which captured the hectic activity going on near the TSBD about 30 seconds after the final shot. We did this by reading several documents and by viewing and comparing images in the Zapruder film and the Couch-Carnell clip and other photographic images, including those in her high school yearbook and those that were taken of her and her colleagues during the 1963 Christmas season at her place of employment -- the South-West Publishing Company office in the TSBD. In short, we didn't need to listen to DPD radio transmissions to realize that she was standing only about 80 feet from the "island" and about 100 feet from the front steps during the motorcade. In other words, close enough to the latter to get to them within 25 seconds after the final shot.
2) I "originally" thought Calvery was talking with Billy Lovelady on the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the final shot, and I also used to think that the evil, evil CIA/Mafia killed JFK. Bart Kamp's(?) "bringing out" the stripes in Lovelady's distinctive "checkered" / "plaid" shirt in the Couch-Darnell clip, and my realizing that Buell Wesley Frazier said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps right after the final shot and started walking in the direction of the triple underpass (i.e., in the direction of the "island") before Calvery came running up to the steps and started bellowing that JFK had been shot, has convinced me that that's not Lovelady on the steps directly in front of Calvery.
3) Unfortunately, Dave Wiegman, Malcolm Couch and Jimmy Darnell were the only three people who were filming the front of the TSBD right after the assassination. If Weigman had simply stayed in his camera car and filmed what was going on around him, he probably would have "captured" Calvery's running to the "island" and her telling Shelley, Officer Smith (and maybe even Willian Nolan Lovelady) that she'd just seen JFK's head get blown off. Ditto Couch and Darnell if they'd started filming a little earlier and pointed their cameras in the right direction.
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
By comparing the witnesses' statements with the combined Couch-Darnell clip and Mark Tyler's DPD-radio-transmissions-and-photographic-images-synchronized animation, it seems plausible to me that Calvery could have been intercepted simultaneously by "best man" Shelley (with or without his sidekick, Lovelady) and Officer Smith 10-15 seconds after the final shot and given them the news that JFK had been shot before she continued on her way, about ten seconds later, to the TSBD steps . . . where we can see her in Couch-Darnell as she's very likely bellowing out to Buell Wesley Frazier, Sarah Stanton and bald-headed Joe Molina (whom I believe is right in front of her), et al., the bad news.
-- Tom
Bump regarding the claim of DPD Radio-Transmissions. This is another claim that has now been withdrawn. This process of elimination is progress!
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Dear Comrade Storing,
It's a pity that you're so terribly confused.
1) Several years ago, Sandy Larsen and I identified big/tall (almost as tall as her tall husband!) Gloria Calvery in the Zapruder film and in the Couch-Darnell clip, the latter of which captured the hectic activity going on near the TSBD about 30 seconds after the final shot. We did this by reading several documents and by viewing and comparing images in the Zapruder film and the Couch-Carnell clip and other photographic images, including those in her high school yearbook and those that were taken of her and her colleagues during the 1963 Christmas season at her place of employment -- the South-West Publishing Company office in the TSBD. In short, we didn't need to listen to DPD radio transmissions to realize that she was standing only about 80 feet from the "island" and about 100 feet from the front steps during the motorcade. In other words, close enough to the latter to get to them within 25 seconds after the final shot.
2) I "originally" thought Calvery was talking with Billy Lovelady on the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the final shot, and I also used to think that the evil, evil CIA/Mafia killed JFK. Bart Kamp's(?) "bringing out" the stripes in Lovelady's distinctive "checkered" / "plaid" shirt in the Couch-Darnell clip, and my realizing that Buell Wesley Frazier said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps right after the final shot and started walking in the direction of the triple underpass (i.e., in the direction of the "island") before Calvery came running up to the steps and started bellowing that JFK had been shot, has convinced me that that's not Lovelady on the steps directly in front of Calvery.
3) Unfortunately, Dave Wiegman, Malcolm Couch and Jimmy Darnell were the only three people who were filming the front of the TSBD right after the assassination. If Weigman had simply stayed in his camera car and filmed what was going on around him, he probably would have "captured" Calvery's running to the "island" and her telling Shelley, Officer Smith (and maybe even Willian Nolan Lovelady) that she'd just seen JFK's head get blown off. Ditto Couch and Darnell if they'd started filming a little earlier and pointed their cameras in the right direction.
-- Tom
In the course of your research and the morphing of the "evidence" you claim to have found, have you ever viewed the Couch Film Reverse-Negative?
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In the course of your research and the morphing of the "evidence" you claim to have found, have you ever viewed the Couch Film Reverse-Negative?
Is that something like a wilderness of mirrors?
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Dear Comrade Storing,
It's a pity that you're so terribly confused.
1) Several years ago, Sandy Larsen and I identified big/tall (almost as tall as her tall husband!) Gloria Calvery in the Zapruder film and in the Couch-Darnell clip, the latter of which captured the hectic activity going on near the TSBD about 30 seconds after the final shot. We did this by reading several documents and by viewing and comparing images in the Zapruder film and the Couch-Carnell clip and other photographic images, including those in her high school yearbook and those that were taken of her and her colleagues during the 1963 Christmas season at her place of employment -- the South-West Publishing Company office in the TSBD. In short, we didn't need to listen to DPD radio transmissions to realize that she was standing only about 80 feet from the "island" and about 100 feet from the front steps during the motorcade. In other words, close enough to the latter to get to them within 25 seconds after the final shot.
2) I "originally" thought Calvery was talking with Billy Lovelady on the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the final shot, and I also used to think that the evil, evil CIA/Mafia killed JFK. Bart Kamp's(?) "bringing out" the stripes in Lovelady's distinctive "checkered" / "plaid" shirt in the Couch-Darnell clip, and my realizing that Buell Wesley Frazier said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps right after the final shot and started walking in the direction of the triple underpass (i.e., in the direction of the "island") before Calvery came running up to the steps and started bellowing that JFK had been shot, has convinced me that that's not Lovelady on the steps directly in front of Calvery.
3) Unfortunately, Dave Wiegman, Malcolm Couch and Jimmy Darnell were the only three people who were filming the front of the TSBD right after the assassination. If Weigman had simply stayed in his camera car and filmed what was going on around him, he probably would have "captured" Calvery's running to the "island" and her telling Shelley, Officer Smith (and maybe even Willian Nolan Lovelady) that she'd just seen JFK's head get blown off. Ditto Couch and Darnell if they'd started filming a little earlier and pointed their cameras in the right direction.
-- Tom
I know we're going to agree to disagree about this but I'd like to say why I don't accept your notion that Gloria is talking to someone other than Lovelady on the steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzK3VBXj/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Of the white males on the steps at the time of the shooting, Shelley was wearing a black suit jacket (and had a 'pompadour' hairdo), Otis Williams had a white office shirt on and was wearing glasses and Joe Molina (the only other bald, white male on the steps besides Lovelady) was also wearing a pure white office shirt.
The man in the picture above is clearly not wearing a black suit jacket or a brilliant white office shirt (note how the white of Karan Hicks stands out). I would actually argue that there is a hint of Lovelady's checkered pattern in the man's shirt (although this is possibly an artifact of image enhancement).
By a process of elimination regarding the clothes it can only be Lovelady.
Also, Joe Molina specifically places his encounter with Gloria and Karan in the lobby. He is clear that he is standing in the lobby when he has his interaction with Gloria.
Also, in the last images we have of the front steps before Darnell (Weigman, Altgens), Lovelady is stood, more or less, in the same location we see above - on the west side of the steps a few steps up.
Finally there is Lovelady's account of being on the steps when Gloria came up to the steps. An analysis of the Darnell footage reveals that Hicks has just started to climb the steps, indicating she has literally just arrived there. There is no time for the man to be anyone other than Lovelady.
I understand how compelling Kemp's image is but, IMO, there is too much evidence against this identification. Also, Frazier isn't half as authoritative as you present him as being. He 'believes' "Billy and them walked down toward that direction". I get the impression he doesn't really know, he just knows that he stayed in place.
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Is that something like a wilderness of mirrors?
You wanna joke around and at the same time be taken seriously? Have it your way.
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You wanna joke around and at the same time be taken seriously? Have it your way.
You poor thing, you.
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You poor thing, you.
Your loss Tom.
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Your loss Tom.
Dear Royell,
Have you ever viewed the Couch Film Reverse-Negative?
If so, what did you "see"?
Something having to do with THE HUGE GATES?
-- Tom