JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2025, 12:50:58 PM
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In any complex operation that requires a large-scale cover-up, unwanted information, and even highly damaging information, will often slip out here and there. This is what happened when Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney testified before the Warren Commission (WC).
The WC established that Mooney was the first law enforcement officer to go to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) after the shooting, and that Mooney was the officer who discovered the sixth-floor “sniper’s nest.” Mooney headed up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor at no later than 12:50. No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
Not realizing the implications of what he was about to say, Mooney dropped the bombshell during his WC testimony that on his way up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor, he encountered two men in plain clothes coming down the stairs (3 H 284). Mooney did not recognize them, but he said he assumed they were fellow deputy sheriffs in plain clothes.
The two men on the stairs could not have been law enforcement officers of any kind (and they could not have been William Shelley and Billy Lovelady). They may well have been the same two men whom Officer D. V. Harkness encountered minutes later on the TSBD’s north loading dock by the rear door. The men falsely told Harkness they were Secret Service agents, so he did not question them (6 H 312; Dallas Morning News, August 27, 1978; Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, p. 26; Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, pp. 110-111). Of course, they could not have been Secret Service agents. The HSCA established that no Secret Service agents were in Dealey Plaza after the motorcade left the plaza.
The two men on the stairs were likely the men who were moving boxes around in the sixth-floor window within two minutes of the shooting. The HSCA’s photographic experts established that two photos taken of the sniper’s window, one taken moments after the shooting and the other taken about two minutes later, show that someone was rearranging boxes in the window during this timeframe (6 HSCA 109-115; 4 HSCA 422-423).
Obviously, Oswald could not have been in the sniper’s nest during that time, so he could not have been rearranging boxes in that time span. He would have had to be hiding the rifle and then running down the stairs rapidly enough to get beyond the second-floor foyer door allegedly to be seen by Officer Marrion Baker 75-90 seconds after the shooting.
For an exhaustive analysis of the photographic evidence that boxes were being rearranged in the sniper’s nest within two minutes of the shooting, see Barry Krusch’s detailed chapter on the subject in his book Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald, Volume Three (pp. 28-69).
We can pin down the timing of Mooney’s movements with a high degree of certainty. When Mooney found the sniper’s nest, he leaned out the sniper’s window at 1:00 to yell down to Captain Will Fritz and told him he had found the TSBD gunman’s location and to get crime lab people to the sixth floor. About 10 minutes later, Lt. J. C. Day and Detective R. L. Studebaker arrived on the sixth floor. Before this occurred, Mooney briefly scanned the sixth floor, then went to the seventh floor, then got two other law enforcement officers to come with him back to the sixth floor. Given Mooney’s movements before he yelled out the window to Fritz, he must have been heading up the stairs to the sixth floor no later than 12:50, and more likely several minutes earlier.
You might be wondering how the WC counsel who was questioning Mooney, Joseph Ball, reacted when Mooney dropped the bombshell about encountering two plain clothes deputy sheriffs heading down the stairs. Incredibly, Ball ignored the information and asked no questions about the two men, and the WC made no effort to determine the identity of the two men.
And, not surprisingly, WC apologists have virtually ignored Mooney’s bombshell disclosure.
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In any complex operation that requires a large-scale cover-up, unwanted information, and even highly damaging information, will often slip out here and there. This is what happened when Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney testified before the Warren Commission (WC).
The WC established that Mooney was the first law enforcement officer to go to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) after the shooting, and that Mooney was the officer who discovered the sixth-floor “sniper’s nest.” Mooney headed up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor at no later than 12:50. No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
Not realizing the implications of what he was about to say, Mooney dropped the bombshell during his WC testimony that on his way up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor, he encountered two men in plain clothes coming down the stairs (3 H 284). Mooney did not recognize them, but he said he assumed they were fellow deputy sheriffs in plain clothes.
The two men on the stairs could not have been law enforcement officers of any kind (and they could not have been William Shelley and Billy Lovelady). They may well have been the same two men whom Officer D. V. Harkness encountered minutes later on the TSBD’s north loading dock by the rear door. The men falsely told Harkness they were Secret Service agents, so he did not question them (6 H 312; Dallas Morning News, August 27, 1978; Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, p. 26; Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, pp. 110-111). Of course, they could not have been Secret Service agents. The HSCA established that no Secret Service agents were in Dealey Plaza after the motorcade left the plaza.
The two men on the stairs were likely the men who were moving boxes around in the sixth-floor window within two minutes of the shooting. The HSCA’s photographic experts established that two photos taken of the sniper’s window, one taken moments after the shooting and the other taken about two minutes later, show that someone was rearranging boxes in the window during this timeframe (6 HSCA 109-115; 4 HSCA 422-423).
Obviously, Oswald could not have been in the sniper’s nest during that time, so he could not have been rearranging boxes in that time span. He would have had to be hiding the rifle and then running down the stairs rapidly enough to get beyond the second-floor foyer door allegedly to be seen by Officer Marrion Baker 75-90 seconds after the shooting.
For an exhaustive analysis of the photographic evidence that boxes were being rearranged in the sniper’s nest within two minutes of the shooting, see Barry Krusch’s detailed chapter on the subject in his book Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald, Volume Three (pp. 28-69).
We can pin down the timing of Mooney’s movements with a high degree of certainty. When Mooney found the sniper’s nest, he leaned out the sniper’s window at 1:00 to yell down to Captain Will Fritz and told him he had found the TSBD gunman’s location and to get crime lab people to the sixth floor. About 10 minutes later, Lt. J. C. Day and Detective R. L. Studebaker arrived on the sixth floor. Before this occurred, Mooney briefly scanned the sixth floor, then went to the seventh floor, then got two other law enforcement officers to come with him back to the sixth floor. Given Mooney’s movements before he yelled out the window to Fritz, he must have been heading up the stairs to the sixth floor no later than 12:50, and more likely several minutes earlier.
You might be wondering how the WC counsel who was questioning Mooney, Joseph Ball, reacted when Mooney dropped the bombshell about encountering two plain clothes deputy sheriffs heading down the stairs. Incredibly, Ball ignored the information and asked no questions about the two men, and the WC made no effort to determine the identity of the two men.
And, not surprisingly, WC apologists have virtually ignored Mooney’s bombshell disclosure.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Whoever they were, they must have been from the evil, evil CIA or the evil, evil CIA-affiliated Mafia!!!
-- Tom
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How long after the Kill Shot did Officer Luke Mooney encounter the, "2 Men On The Stairs"? Mooney said in his WC Testimony that he and 2 other deputies walked through the "Wide Open" Gates, they then CLOSED those Gates, and then entered the TSBD 1st floor and began heading up toward the 7th Floor. The Martin Film shows Amos Euins on the back of DPD Sgt. Harkness 3 Wheel Motorcycle as they race down the Elm St Ext. Those same Gates are visible in the background. I believe we are seeing that those Gates are CLOSED. With these being the same gates that Officer Mooney physically Closed, means that at this point in time Officer Mooney is inside the TSBD. Sgt Harkness made a 12:36 DPD radio transmission that he had a witness that saw shots being fired from the TSBD. Harkness was instructed to bring the witness to the front of the TSBD. This witness was Amos Euins and Harkness immediately brought Euins to the front of the TSBD on the back of his 3 wheel motorcycle, which we see on the Martin Film. With Harkness making that 12:36 DPD radio transmission, (Harkness verified making this DPD radio transmission during his WC Testimony), we are probably seeing Euins and those Closed Gates at roughly 12:38 - 12:39 on the Martin Film. This also means that Mooney was already inside the TSBD at this same point in time. I would estimate that Harkness saw those 2 men on the stairwell at roughly 12 minutes after the Kill Shot.
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How long after the Kill Shot did Officer Luke Mooney encounter the, "2 Men On The Stairs"? Mooney said in his WC Testimony that he and 2 other deputies walked through the "Wide Open" Gates, they then CLOSED those Gates, and then entered the TSBD 1st floor and began heading up toward the 7th Floor. The Martin Film shows Amos Euins on the back of DPD Sgt. Harkness 3 Wheel Motorcycle as they race down the Elm St Ext. Those same Gates are visible in the background. I believe we are seeing that those Gates are CLOSED. With these being the same gates that Officer Mooney physically Closed, means that at this point in time Officer Mooney is inside the TSBD. Sgt Harkness made a 12:36 DPD radio transmission that he had a witness that saw shots being fired from the TSBD. Harkness was instructed to bring the witness to the front of the TSBD. This witness was Amos Euins and Harkness immediately brought Euins to the front of the TSBD on the back of his 3 wheel motorcycle, which we see on the Martin Film. With Harkness making that 12:36 DPD radio transmission, (Harkness verified making this DPD radio transmission during his WC Testimony), we are probably seeing Euins and those Closed Gates at roughly 12:38 - 12:39 on the Martin Film. This also means that Mooney was already inside the TSBD at this same point in time. I would estimate that Harkness saw those 2 men on the stairwell at roughly 12 minutes after the Kill Shot.
As I state in the OP, Mooney was heading up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor no later than 12:50 and probably several minutes earlier. The two men could not have been law enforcements of any kind and no TSBD employees were identified as having come down the stairs during that time period.
Judging from Mooney's description of "plain clothes," the two men were apparently in suits or at least in a shirt and tie, since that was the dress code for plain clothes deputy sheriffs and police detectives. If they had been dressed as common laborers, Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs.
Dear Comrade Griffith, Whoever they were, they must have been from the evil, evil CIA or the evil, evil CIA-affiliated Mafia!!! -- Tom
As expected, your only response to serious evidence is to offer more of your juvenile silliness.
You tell me: Since we know there were no Secret Service agents in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, who were the two men in suits in the back of the TSBD who told Harkness they were Secret Service agents? Who was the man on the grassy knoll who told Officer Smith he was a Secret Service agent and even showed a fake SS ID? Who were the two men coming down the stairs who were dressed nicely enough that Mooney thought they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs?
And who was moving boxes around in the sniper's next within two minutes of the shooting? Surely even you know enough to know that it could not have been Oswald.
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As I state in the OP, Mooney was heading up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor no later than 12:50 and probably several minutes earlier. The two men could not have been law enforcements of any kind and no TSBD employees were identified as having come down the stairs during that time period.
Judging from Mooney's description of "plain clothes," the two men were apparently in suits or at least in a shirt and tie, since that was the dress code for plain clothes deputy sheriffs and police detectives. If they had been dressed as common laborers, Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs.
As expected, your only response to serious evidence is to offer more of your juvenile silliness.
You tell me: Since we know there were no Secret Service agents in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, who were the two men in suits in the back of the TSBD who told Harkness they were Secret Service agents? Who was the man on the grassy knoll who told Officer Smith he was a Secret Service agent and even showed a fake SS ID? Who were the two men coming down the stairs who were dressed nicely enough that Mooney thought they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs?
And who was moving boxes around in the sniper's next within two minutes of the shooting? Surely even you know enough to know that it could not have been Oswald.
I would Not go as far as to say, "..could not have been law enforcements of any kind...". During his WC Testimony, Mooney detailed his encountering 2 women prior to his boarding the "Freight Elevator" to go up to the 7th floor. These women worked inside the TSBD and went up with Mooney on the freight elevator. Point is, there were people such as these women inside the TSBD during this time period. Therefore, it is "possible" that a couple of plain clothes cops entered the building and went up into the TSBD before these women entered the building. Mooney detailed that the power went out while he was on the freight elevator with these 2 women. Mooney then took these women to their office, made sure their office was secure, and then he took the "Stairs" Up to the 7th floor. This is when Mooney saw the 2 suits on the stairwell. If you can pin down when the power went out inside the TSBD, you would have a fairly good idea as to when Mooney saw these 2 suits coming down the stairwell.
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I would Not go as far as to say, "..could not have been law enforcements of any kind...". During his WC Testimony, Mooney detailed his encountering 2 women prior to his boarding the "Freight Elevator" to go up to the 7th floor. These women worked inside the TSBD and went up with Mooney on the freight elevator. Point is, there were people such as these women inside the TSBD during this time period. Therefore, it is "possible" that a couple of plain clothes cops entered the building and went up into the TSBD before these women entered the building.
I don't see how Mooney's seeing the two women before boarding the elevator means it is possible that two plain clothes law enforcement officers entered the building and went upstairs before Mooney got on the stairs. None of the law officers interviewed by the WC said they were in the building during that time. The WC went to considerable lengths to determine if Mooney was the first one on the sixth floor after the shooting. Baker did not go to the sixth floor after he allegedly encountered Oswald.
Another point: Mooney had been on the sheriff's force for nearly six years but did not recognize the two men on the stairs.
Mooney detailed that the power went out while he was on the freight elevator with these 2 women. Mooney then took these women to their office, made sure their office was secure, and then he took the "Stairs" Up to the 7th floor. This is when Mooney saw the 2 suits on the stairwell. If you can pin down when the power went out inside the TSBD, you would have a fairly good idea as to when Mooney saw these 2 suits coming down the stairwell.
We already have an almost exact time for when Mooney was on the stairs. Barry Krusch discusses this in volume 3 of Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald. We know that it was 1:00 PM, give or take a minute, when Mooney yelled down to Fritz from the sixth-floor window and told him to get some crime-scene officers up to the sixth floor. We know that Day and Studebaker arrived at right around 1:10. Making reasonable allowances for the actions that Mooney performed before he yelled down to Fritz would put him on the stairs no later than 12:50 and probably several minutes earlier.
Oswald could not have been the one moving boxes around in the sniper's nest within two minutes of the shooting.
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The main thing I do not like about the 2 men in suits is that Officer Mooney did not describe either of them wearing a hat. I do not recall seeing images of anyone connected to DPD wearing a suit and Not wearing a hat of some kind. Deputy Roger Craig was Not wearing a hat in the Darnell Film, but he was Off Duty that day. To me, both of these guys wearing No Hat is a serious concern.
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The main thing I do not like about the 2 men in suits is that Officer Mooney did not describe either of them wearing a hat. I do not recall seeing images of anyone connected to DPD wearing a suit and Not wearing a hat of some kind. Deputy Roger Craig was Not wearing a hat in the Darnell Film, but he was Off Duty that day. To me, both of these guys wearing No Hat is a serious concern.
I think the fact that he assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs implies they were dressed in accordance with the sheriff department's dress code. He never got a chance to give any description of their clothing or to explain why he assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs because Ball, incredibly enough, ignored his startling statement and did not ask any questions about the two men.
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I think the fact that he assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs implies they were dressed in accordance with the sheriff department's dress code. He never got a chance to give any description of their clothing or to explain why he assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs because Ball, incredibly enough, ignored his startling statement and did not ask any questions about the two men.
The key here is knowing exactly when did the TSBD power go out and prevent Mooney from using the freight elevator beyond the 2nd floor? Knowing this would timeline Mooney and those 2 "plain clothes" guys that he encountered coming DOWN the stairwell. It is hard to believe these 2 possible Sheriffs could have entered and gone up into the TSBD and actually investigated anything within roughly 10 minutes after the Kill Shot.
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The key here is knowing exactly when did the TSBD power go out and prevent Mooney from using the freight elevator beyond the 2nd floor? Knowing this would timeline Mooney and those 2 "plain clothes" guys that he encountered coming DOWN the stairwell. It is hard to believe these 2 possible Sheriffs could have entered and gone up into the TSBD and actually investigated anything within roughly 10 minutes after the Kill Shot.
And that's the rub: There just doesn't seem to be a plausible innocent explanation for two well-dressed men coming down the stairs at 12:40-12:50. They obviously were not common laborers or else Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes law officers. The WC went of its way to establish that Mooney was the first law officer on the sixth floor. Yet, Ball simply ignored Mooney's account of two law officers on the stairs at a time when none were there and when none should have been there, and the Commission showed no interest in Harkness's encounter at the rear of the TSBD with men who claimed they were Secret Service agents.
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And that's the rub: There just doesn't seem to be a plausible innocent explanation for two well-dressed men coming down the stairs at 12:40-12:50. They obviously were not common laborers or else Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes law officers. The WC went of its way to establish that Mooney was the first law officer on the sixth floor. Yet, Ball simply ignored Mooney's account of two law officers on the stairs at a time when none were there and when none should have been there, and the Commission showed no interest in Harkness's encounter at the rear of the TSBD with men who claimed they were Secret Service agents.
Don't forget that Mooney entered the TSBD with 2 other deputies. And they were ahead of Mooney as he helped those 2 women safely get to their 2nd Floor office due to the power being out. So there is at least Mooney and his 2 deputy buddies + Officer Baker inside the TSBD. The fact the 2 guys in question were heading DOWN is a reason for concern. I do wonder how Mooney SAW these 2 Men on the stairwell if the power was still out. And I am assuming the power was still out or Mooney would have used the freight elevator as he originally did. With the power out, that stairwell should have been as dark as a hole.
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Didn't Vicky Adams say that she passed two men sitting down between the freight elevators and the door out onto the North loading Dock?
Her and Sandra Styles had come down to the north loading Dock to look around the rail yard but were sent back in by a cop. She had never seen the men before.
And wasn't the electrical distribution board there?
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I think the fact that he assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs implies they were dressed in accordance with the sheriff department's dress code. He never got a chance to give any description of their clothing or to explain why he assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs because Ball, incredibly enough, ignored his startling statement and did not ask any questions about the two men.
"Plain clothes" can mean a lot of different things. Anybody not wearing a cop uniform might be considered to be wearing "plain clothes". "Plain clothes" could be a suit, or a sports shirt, etc. Officer Mooney was Not wearing a uniform that day. This is probably why Mooney thought these guys were "deputy sheriffs". Their attire was similar to what he was wearing.
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MTG--
You make an excellent post, and yet by your own narrative Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney was ascending the stairs in the TSBD ~12:50 pm, about 20 minutes after the JFKA.
Mooney says he passed by "two men in plain clothes," somewhere between the 2nd and 6th floor.
There were publisher's offices on TSBD floors 2 through 4 with execs and sales-men. They would typically wear office business attire of the day, which was suit and tie.
I find it hard to fathom that JFKA perps would hang around the TSBD 20 minutes after the JFKA.
Also, are we 100% sure that no Sheriffs or DPD'ers, unrecorded, went to the upper floor of the TSBD about 12:50pm?
While Mooney would have possibly recognized fellow sheriffs, what about a non-fellow DPD'er?
I dunno about this one. In the hub-bub after the JFKA, outright pandemonium, a couple of guys in suits on the TSBD stairs 20 minutes after the JFKA...means there was a conspiracy?
Could have been anybody.
This does not excuse the WC, which essentially conducted a posthumous LN prosecution of LHO...and also suffocated leads to G2 in the process.
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The key here is knowing exactly when did the TSBD power go out and prevent Mooney from using the freight elevator beyond the 2nd floor? Knowing this would timeline Mooney and those 2 "plain clothes" guys that he encountered coming DOWN the stairwell. It is hard to believe these 2 possible Sheriffs could have entered and gone up into the TSBD and actually investigated anything within roughly 10 minutes after the Kill Shot.
Mooney never claimed that the power to the building was cut off. Only to the elevator.`This is from his report to Decker:
"Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor"
No one else reported the power to the entire building being cut off or the lights going out etc, and there were any number of people in the building at the time.
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Mooney never claimed that the power to the building was cut off. Only to the elevator.`This is from his report to Decker:
"Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor"
No one else reported the power to the entire building being cut off or the lights going out etc, and there were any number of people in the building at the time.
Careful, Mitch! You're employing too much logic for Royell Storing!
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[...]
What does "NLT" stand for?
North Loading Transitional Zone, and you just forgot to put the Z in?
-- Tom
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And that's the rub: There just doesn't seem to be a plausible innocent explanation for two well-dressed men coming down the stairs at 12:40-12:50. They obviously were not common laborers or else Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes law officers. The WC went of its way to establish that Mooney was the first law officer on the sixth floor. Yet, Ball simply ignored Mooney's account of two law officers on the stairs at a time when none were there and when none should have been there, and the Commission showed no interest in Harkness's encounter at the rear of the TSBD with men who claimed they were Secret Service agents.
10-20 minutes is plenty of time for other DCSD officers to enter the building, get up to a higher floor and come back down in time to meet Mooney. Also, Mooney may have just run into someone who worked in one of the publisher's offices in the TSBD, but whom Mooney took for a other deputies. Suits weren't uncommon businesswear in those days.
As for Harkness, he didn't run round to the back of the TSBD until after Euins had been seated in Sawyer's car. As Mr Storing has pointed out, film shows this occurring while the TSBD's red gates are already closed. Dan O'Meara has shown that photographs show that those red gates are still open at 12:40 PM. Therefore, Harkness doesn't make it to the rear of the TSBD until after 12:40. Maybe even many minutes after 12:40.
At the same time, Forrest Sorrel's didn't hang around at Parkland for very long before he grabbed the first DPD car headed back to Dealey Plaza. Sorrel's testified that the car came down Houston, and that he exited the car and immediately entered the TSBD through the rear entrance. This would put him at the TSBD rear doors about the time that Harkness also showed up back there. The implication should be obvious.
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The WC established that Mooney was the first law enforcement officer to go to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) after the shooting, and that Mooney was the officer who discovered the sixth-floor “sniper’s nest.” Mooney headed up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor at no later than 12:50. No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
This is clearly not the case.
Marrion Baker, along with Roy Truly, reached the seventh floor at approximately 12:35 PM. As the were coming back down to the first floor in the elevator, they stopped on the fourth floor where Baker had a quick chat with Inspector Sawyer. Sawyer had entered the TSBD around 12;35Pm and made his way up to the fourth floor with another officer and a mystery employee from the TSBD. He had his interaction with Baker on the fourth floor at approximately 12:40PM.
However, both these men were in full uniform and cannot be mistaken with the plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney saw on his way up to the sixth floor.
Mooney entered the TSBD no sooner than 12:40PM.
He took the elevator, which stalled on the second floor. He had a quick look around the second floor then made his way up to the sixth floor via the back stairs. It was at this time he crossed the two men coming down the stairs. This took place at approximately 12:45PM.
Mooney went up to the sixth, had a good look around on his own, went up to the seventh floor and helped out there before returning to the sixth floor and walking straight over to the southeast corner, where he discovered the "cubby hole". After alerting other officers on the sixth floor of his discovery, he shouted down to Fritz, who was entering the building at 12:58PM
So who were the two plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney encountered around 12:45PM?
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTyfcn9c/Faulkner-Report.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This is the report of Deputy Sheriff Jack Faulkner, written up on the day of the assassination.
In it he reports that immediately after the shots he made his way to Elm Street where he was trying to find out what was going on.
He reports that "a small negro boy came up to a Dallas Uniform officer" and told him the shots came from the TSBD. The is is clearly Amos Euins talking to Harkness. This happened BEFORE Harkness radioed in this information at 12:36PM.
Faulkner immediately went to the TSBD where he was met by McCurley, Wiseman and Loraine and they "went to the top of the building and started checking the floors going down from the top in search of the assassin".
They make it to the third floor where they interview some people after which they make their way back up to the building. It is some time after this that Mooney makes his discovery.
It seems that Faulkner, a plain clothed Deputy Sheriff making his way down from the seventh floor, is at least one of the men Mooney encountered. I'm guessing Bill Wiseman was the other.
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No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
This is clearly not the case.
Marrion Baker, along with Roy Truly, reached the seventh floor at approximately 12:35 PM. As the were coming back down to the first floor in the elevator, they stopped on the fourth floor where Baker had a quick chat with Inspector Sawyer. Sawyer had entered the TSBD around 12;35Pm and made his way up to the fourth floor with another officer and a mystery employee from the TSBD. He had his interaction with Baker on the fourth floor at approximately 12:40PM.
However, both these men were in full uniform and cannot be mistaken with the plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney saw on his way up to the sixth floor.
Mooney entered the TSBD no sooner than 12:40PM.
He took the elevator, which stalled on the second floor. He had a quick look around the second floor then made his way up to the sixth floor via the back stairs. It was at this time he crossed the two men coming down the stairs. This took place at approximately 12:45PM.
Mooney went up to the sixth, had a good look around on his own, went up to the seventh floor and helped out there before returning to the sixth floor and walking straight over to the southeast corner, where he discovered the "cubby hole". After alerting other officers on the sixth floor of his discovery, he shouted down to Fritz, who was entering the building at 12:58PM
So who were the two plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney encountered around 12:45PM?
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTyfcn9c/Faulkner-Report.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This is the report of Deputy Sheriff Jack Faulkner, written up on the day of the assassination.
In it he reports that immediately after the shots he made his way to Elm Street where he was trying to find out what was going on.
He reports that "a small negro boy came up to a Dallas Uniform officer" and told him the shots came from the TSBD. The is is clearly Amos Euins talking to Harkness. This happened BEFORE Harkness radioed in this information at 12:36PM.
Faulkner immediately went to the TSBD where he was met by McCurley, Wiseman and Loraine and they "went to the top of the building and started checking the floors going down from the top in search of the assassin".
They make it to the third floor where they interview some people after which they make their way back up to the building. It is some time after this that Mooney makes his discovery.
It seems that Faulkner, a plain clothed Deputy Sheriff making his way down from the seventh floor, is at least one of the men Mooney encountered. I'm guessing Bill Wiseman was the other.
There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD. This same footage also shows the Huge Gates were Closed/Ajar at that same time. Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD. After arriving at the TSBD, Harkness then loaded Euins into Sawyer's car. The loading of Euins into Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates already being closed, would then be 12:37. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC testimony that he and 2 other DPD Deputies closed those gates after finding them to be "wide open". This means that 12:37 timeline also applies to Luke Mooney and the 2 deputies who closed those Huge Gates. Luke Mooney and the 2 Deputies were then inside the TSBD no later than 12:38.
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There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD. This same footage also shows the Huge Gates were Closed/Ajar at that same time. Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD. After arriving at the TSBD, Harkness then loaded Euins into Sawyer's car. The loading of Euins into Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates already being closed, would then be 12:37. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC testimony that he and 2 other DPD Deputies closed those gates after finding them to be "wide open". This means that 12:37 timeline also applies to Luke Mooney and the 2 deputies who closed those Huge Gates. Luke Mooney and the 2 Deputies were then inside the TSBD no later than 12:38.
There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD
I have never seen this footage. I don't believe such footage exists.
I believe you are referring to footage of Brennan being loaded into Sawyer's car.
If I am mistaken, please point me towards this footage.
Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD.
Harkness makes two documented transmissions at 12:36PM
"I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store."
"Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Neither of these transmissions states that Harkness was "bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD."
I believe you are wrong about the Euin's footage and the Harkness transmission. To my mind this negates your assertion that Mooney entered the TSBD at 12:38PM.
The Allen picture below shows the gates wide open and the time as 12:40PM.
Mooney had not yet entered the TSBD at 12:40PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1shgspM/Allen-Walthers-arrow.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rNmj57M)
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There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD. This same footage also shows the Huge Gates were Closed/Ajar at that same time. Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD. After arriving at the TSBD, Harkness then loaded Euins into Sawyer's car. The loading of Euins into Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates already being closed, would then be 12:37. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC testimony that he and 2 other DPD Deputies closed those gates after finding them to be "wide open". This means that 12:37 timeline also applies to Luke Mooney and the 2 deputies who closed those Huge Gates. Luke Mooney and the 2 Deputies were then inside the TSBD no later than 12:38.
There is nothing in Harkness testimony (or anyone else's) indicating exactly how long it took to put Euins in Sawyer's car.
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There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD
I have never seen this footage. I don't believe such footage exists.
I believe you are referring to footage of Brennan being loaded into Sawyer's car.
If I am mistaken, please point me towards this footage.
Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD.
Harkness makes two documented transmissions at 12:36PM
"I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store."
"Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Neither of these transmissions states that Harkness was "bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD."
I believe you are wrong about the Euin's footage and the Harkness transmission. To my mind this negates your assertion that Mooney entered the TSBD at 12:38PM.
The Allen picture below shows the gates wide open and the time as 12:40PM.
Mooney had not yet entered the TSBD at 12:40PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1shgspM/Allen-Walthers-arrow.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rNmj57M)
Why not just nicely ask me for the source that shows Euins being loaded into Sawyer's car?
(1) Go to "YOU TUBE". (2) SEARCH - "Amos Euins?" by- NoTrueFlags Here (3) 7:21 -7:30 shows Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates being closed/ajar.
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There is nothing in Harkness testimony (or anyone else's) indicating exactly how long it took to put Euins in Sawyer's car.
The "longer" you take to place Euins inside Inspector Sawyer's car, means it is even later when Harkness then goes to secure the Back of the TSBD. This is when the Darnell Film shows both Officer Harkness and Officer Haygood together inside the railroad yard. AND, this Darnell film footage of Officer Haygood and Officer Harkness together has to happen BEFORE 12:35 when Officer Haygood makes his documented police radio call from his motorcycle parked at the Elm St curb close to the Triple Underpass. You're stuck. The Tick/Tock of all of this ties together and simply does Not work. These dominoes are falling into each other.
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The "longer" you take to place Euins inside Inspector Sawyer's car, means it is even later when Harkness then goes to secure the Back of the TSBD. This is when the Darnell Film shows both Officer Harkness and Officer Haygood together inside the railroad yard. AND, this Darnell film footage of Officer Haygood and Officer Harkness together has to happen BEFORE 12:35 when Officer Haygood makes his documented police radio call from his motorcycle parked at the Elm St curb close to the Triple Underpass. You're stuck. The Tick/Tock of all of this ties together and simply does Not work. These dominoes are falling into each other.
Harkness explicitly testified that his position near the end of the Elm Street extension was not behind the TSBD
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do
Mr. HARKNESS - I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and Industrial.
Mr. BELIN - Why did you go down there?
Mr. HARKNESS - By the way the people, when I went into this area, everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars.
Mr. BELIN - You mean from some point in front of the cars?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know who that someone was?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did that person do that indicated that?
Mr. HARKNESS - I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you
Mr. HARKNESS - I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone fleeing that area.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see?
Mr. HARKNESS - I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - What do you mean across the street from Elm Street?
Mr. HARKNESS - Again, I will have to--near the railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - Behind the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down.
Mr. BELIN - What you are really saying---
Mr. HARKNESS - This area.
Mr. BELIN - You are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual extension of Elm?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; to the plaza area.
Mr. BELIN - The plaza area?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you find there?
Mr. HARKNESS - I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.
The rear of the TSBD is where the the truck loading dock on the North side of the building is. That is, the rear of the TSBD is opposite side of the front, where one would expect the rear to be.
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Harkness explicitly testified that his position near the end of the Elm Street extension was not behind the TSBD
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do
Mr. HARKNESS - I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and Industrial.
Mr. BELIN - Why did you go down there?
Mr. HARKNESS - By the way the people, when I went into this area, everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars.
Mr. BELIN - You mean from some point in front of the cars?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know who that someone was?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did that person do that indicated that?
Mr. HARKNESS - I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you
Mr. HARKNESS - I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone fleeing that area.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see?
Mr. HARKNESS - I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - What do you mean across the street from Elm Street?
Mr. HARKNESS - Again, I will have to--near the railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - Behind the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down.
Mr. BELIN - What you are really saying---
Mr. HARKNESS - This area.
Mr. BELIN - You are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual extension of Elm?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; to the plaza area.
Mr. BELIN - The plaza area?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you find there?
Mr. HARKNESS - I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.
The rear of the TSBD is where the the truck loading dock on the North side of the building is. That is, the rear of the TSBD is opposite side of the front, where one would expect the rear to be.
You are another that is short on detailed foundational knowledge. You need to bone up on Euins WC Testimony and the structures which stretch down the Elm St. Extension. In Euins WC Testimony, he indicated on a map where he 1st came into contact with Officer Harkness. This point of contact was where the buildings running down the Elm St Extension end and a FENCE then begins. Inside this FENCE is ANOTHER LOADING DOCK. This additional dock also connects to the TSBD. If you continued walking directly out into the railroad yard from the end of this chain link fence, you would come to the Check Point that Harkness set up out there in order to secure the back of the TSBD. This would be where we see Harkness and the "No Glove Cop" within feet of each other on the Darnell Film. Belin asked Harkness - "BEHIND the builiding?" And Harkness replied, "NO sir, this area right here".
I don't mind helping you out, but please do your necessary JFK Assassination research beforehand. Thanks
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There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD
I have never seen this footage. I don't believe such footage exists.
I believe you are referring to footage of Brennan being loaded into Sawyer's car.
If I am mistaken, please point me towards this footage.
Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD.
Harkness makes two documented transmissions at 12:36PM
"I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store."
"Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Neither of these transmissions states that Harkness was "bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD."
I believe you are wrong about the Euin's footage and the Harkness transmission. To my mind this negates your assertion that Mooney entered the TSBD at 12:38PM.
The Allen picture below shows the gates wide open and the time as 12:40PM.
Mooney had not yet entered the TSBD at 12:40PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1shgspM/Allen-Walthers-arrow.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rNmj57M)
BUMP
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Why not just nicely ask me for the source that shows Euins being loaded into Sawyer's car?
(1) Go to "YOU TUBE". (2) SEARCH - "Amos Euins?" by- NoTrueFlags Here (3) 7:21 -7:30 shows Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates being closed/ajar.
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You are another that is short on detailed foundational knowledge. You need to bone up on Euins WC Testimony and the structures which stretch down the Elm St. Extension. In Euins WC Testimony, he indicated on a map where he 1st came into contact with Officer Harkness. This point of contact was where the buildings running down the Elm St Extension end and a FENCE then begins. Inside this FENCE is ANOTHER LOADING DOCK. This additional dock also connects to the TSBD. If you continued walking directly out into the railroad yard from the end of this chain link fence, you would come to the Check Point that Harkness set up out there in order to secure the back of the TSBD. This would be where we see Harkness and the "No Glove Cop" within feet of each other on the Darnell Film. Belin asked Harkness - "BEHIND the builiding?" And Harkness replied, "NO sir, this area right here".
I don't mind helping you out, but please do your necessary JFK Assassination research beforehand. Thanks
I'm assuming that by "FENCE" you're talking about the v-shaped chain link fence between the first RR yard spur and the TSBD parking are west of the annex covered parking. He could also be referring to the GK picket fence; he doesn't specify. I'm going to bend cardinal directions a bit so they match the main downtown Dallas street grid. The chain link fence meets the Elm St extension west of the TSBD and well clear of any part of the Depository.
In the Darnell film, it is easily apparent that Darnell's position is in line with the south curb of the Elm St extension, and that Harkness is about 25-30' north of Darnell's position. Which would put Harkness more or less in line with the north side of the Elm St extension. In turn, this puts him directly west any position he would have taken next to the fence. And not by that far. So, if Harkness is not behind the TSBD when he's on the ESX near the fence, he's also not behind the TSBD when he's at his position in the Darnell film.
That being said, it's worth repeating that "behind" is the opposite of 'in front of." In front of the TSBD is to the south of it. That would put "behind" to the north of the building. The Darnell film shows Harkness to the west of the SW corner of the building. Anyone with the sense of a mule can figure this out.
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I'm assuming that by "FENCE" you're talking about the v-shaped chain link fence between the first RR yard spur and the TSBD parking are west of the annex covered parking. He could also be referring to the GK picket fence; he doesn't specify. I'm going to bend cardinal directions a bit so they match the main downtown Dallas street grid. The chain link fence meets the Elm St extension west of the TSBD and well clear of any part of the Depository.
In the Darnell film, it is easily apparent that Darnell's position is in line with the south curb of the Elm St extension, and that Harkness is about 25-30' north of Darnell's position. Which would put Harkness more or less in line with the north side of the Elm St extension. In turn, this puts him directly west any position he would have taken next to the fence. And not by that far. So, if Harkness is not behind the TSBD when he's on the ESX near the fence, he's also not behind the TSBD when he's at his position in the Darnell film.
That being said, it's worth repeating that "behind" is the opposite of 'in front of." In front of the TSBD is to the south of it. That would put "behind" to the north of the building. The Darnell film shows Harkness to the west of the SW corner of the building. Anyone with the sense of a mule can figure this out.
Would you consider the 2 Story railroad tower to be "behind" the TSBD? Harkness is standing close to that railroad tower.
I disagree with your physical placement of Darnell. Darnell, Harkness, and "No Glove Cop" are almost directly in line with each other when Harkness and "No Glove Cop" are filmed together early on.
The "fence" I am referring to encloses the loading dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. You have the TSBD, the Huge Gates, and then the Brick Warehouse. Where the Brick Warehouse ends, the FENCE then begins and runs toward the railroad yard.
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Would you consider the 2 Story railroad tower to be "behind" the TSBD? Harkness is standing close to that railroad tower.
I disagree with your physical placement of Darnell. Darnell, Harkness, and "No Glove Cop" are almost directly in line with each other when Harkness and "No Glove Cop" are filmed together early on.
The "fence" I am referring to encloses the loading dock at the end of the Elm St Ext. You have the TSBD, the Huge Gates, and then the Brick Warehouse. Where the Brick Warehouse ends, the FENCE then begins and runs toward the railroad yard.
In the Harkness/Haygood/Walthers segment of the D film shows that Darnell, Harkness, and he cop identified as Haygood are aligned along a string of wooden bollards that line the east side of the western RR yard spur. There is a bollard just to the north of the helmeted motorcycle cop. This puts him just south of the gap in the bollards that allow cars to drive on the dirt extension of the ESX where it turns to the Northwest. Of course, Harkness is south of the motorcycle cop. This places Harkness roughly in-line with the front face of the TSBD. That's not what anyone would call "behind the TSBD"
In the below image, the black line runs along the south curb of the ESX and extends to the west of it. D, H, and C are the positions of Darnell, Harkness, and the motorcycle cop. The yellow line is the chain link fence.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXnpcSj3/Darnell-Film-Harkness-Position-1.jpg)
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In the Harkness/Haygood/Walthers segment of the D film shows that Darnell, Harkness, and he cop identified as Haygood are aligned along a string of wooden bollards that line the east side of the western RR yard spur. There is a bollard just to the north of the helmeted motorcycle cop. This puts him just south of the gap in the bollards that allow cars to drive on the dirt extension of the ESX where it turns to the Northwest. Of course, Harkness is south of the motorcycle cop. This places Harkness roughly in-line with the front face of the TSBD. That's not what anyone would call "behind the TSBD"
In the below image, the black line runs along the south curb of the ESX and extends to the west of it. D, H, and C are the positions of Darnell, Harkness, and the motorcycle cop. The yellow line is the chain link fence.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXnpcSj3/Darnell-Film-Harkness-Position-1.jpg)
Have you examined the recently uncovered Darnell Film snippet? Steve Barber posted 1 very sharp still frame from that snippet. You have incorrectly positioned all 3 people. (1) The "No Glove Cop" should be on the other side of the dirt road. (2) Officer Harkness was across from him on that same dirt road. (3) Darnell needs to be moved closer to "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness. On that new Darnell Film snippet, Darnell films down the Elm St Ext. Darnell would not be able to do that from the position you have him in.
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Have you examined the recently uncovered Darnell Film snippet? Steve Barber posted 1 very sharp still frame from that snippet. You have incorrectly positioned all 3 people. (1) The "No Glove Cop" should be on the other side of the dirt road. (2) Officer Harkness was across from him on that same dirt road. (3) Darnell needs to be moved closer to "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness. On that new Darnell Film snippet, Darnell films down the Elm St Ext. Darnell would not be able to do that from the position you have him in.
RS: Have you examined the recently uncovered Darnell Film snippet?
Yes. In it, you see that Darnell is standing south and west of the depository when he's filming the crowd on the Elm Street extension. When he does so, you can see a street sign on the S side of the ESX right in front of one of the oak trees that line Elm. That's why the black line locates his position.
RS: The "No Glove Cop" should be on the other side of the dirt road.
No. There is a string of bollards running between the motorcycle cop and Harkness. You see the bollards when the cop walks past them. There wouldn't be a line of bollards placed across a dirt road. You'd also have us believe that there's a car parked in the middle of the dirt road.
RS: Officer Harkness was across from him on that same dirt road
Also no, and for the same reasons.
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RS: Have you examined the recently uncovered Darnell Film snippet?
Yes. In it, you see that Darnell is standing south and west of the depository when he's filming the crowd on the Elm Street extension. When he does so, you can see a street sign on the S side of the ESX right in front of one of the oak trees that line Elm. That's why the black line locates his position.
RS: The "No Glove Cop" should be on the other side of the dirt road.
No. There is a string of bollards running between the motorcycle cop and Harkness. You see the bollards when the cop walks past them. There wouldn't be a line of bollards placed across a dirt road. You'd also have us believe that there's a car parked in the middle of the dirt road.
RS: Officer Harkness was across from him on that same dirt road
Also no, and for the same reasons.
You are Not describing the new Darnell Film snippet. Darnell is not standing near the TSBD when he films this snippet. He is standing well inside the railroad yard, close to Harkness, the No Glove Cop, and Buddy Walthers. Please get yourself up-to-speed and then get back to me.
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You are Not describing the new Darnell Film snippet. Darnell is not standing near the TSBD when he films this snippet. He is standing well inside the railroad yard, close to Harkness, the No Glove Cop, and Buddy Walthers. Please get yourself up-to-speed and then get back to me.
I didn't say Darnell was near the TSBD. I said he was positioned both west and south of the TSBD, as can easily be determined from his film. It's position "D" on the image I shared earlier. You will note that I've put Darnell "well inside the railroad yard, close to Harkness, the No Glove Cop, and Buddy Walthers," as you have said yourself.
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I didn't say Darnell was near the TSBD. I said he was positioned both west and south of the TSBD, as can easily be determined from his film. It's position "D" on the image I shared earlier. You will note that I've put Darnell "well inside the railroad yard, close to Harkness, the No Glove Cop, and Buddy Walthers," as you have said yourself.
Nobody fixes the position of someone back inside the railroad yard by detailing how far that person was from the TSBD. You simply revealed that you were unfamiliar with the newly found Darnell Film snippet. Learning something new is to be valued. It's what you learn after you know-it-all that really counts.
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Nobody fixes the position of someone back inside the railroad yard by detailing how far that person was from the TSBD. You simply revealed that you were unfamiliar with the newly found Darnell Film snippet. Learning something new is to be valued. It's what you learn after you know-it-all that really counts.
Again, I never mentioned how far Darnell was from the TSBD. Your entire reply is just a load of empty whargarrbl. We can locate where Darnell is directly from his film using the curbline of the Elm St extension and figuring out which railroad spur he is standing next to. Doing so puts Harkness directly west of the location of his meeting with Amos Euins. And if the latter location isn't "behind the TSBD", then Harkness' location in the Darnell film is also not behind the TSBD.
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Again, I never mentioned how far Darnell was from the TSBD. Your entire reply is just a load of empty whargarrbl. We can locate where Darnell is directly from his film using the curbline of the Elm St extension and figuring out which railroad spur he is standing next to. Doing so puts Harkness directly west of the location of his meeting with Amos Euins. And if the latter location isn't "behind the TSBD", then Harkness' location in the Darnell film is also not behind the TSBD.
Your giving anyone directions to anywhere would result in them being forced to stop at a gas station and asking for directions. Simply put, Darnell is almost directly in line with "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness back inside the railroad yard. THAT is what matters. And your "curb" stuff carries absolutely no weight. The dirt portion of the Elm St Ext that we see both No Glove Cop and Harkness standing on, does a "Dog Leg" to the viewer's (R). That dirt portion of the Elm St Extension is NOT close to being in direct line with your Elm St Extension curb. Like 99% of the JFK Assassination Researchers, you are unfamiliar with both the Elm St Extension and the railroad yard. This is why I have made the: (1) "Getaway" car, (2) "That Ain't Haygood", and, (3) "wide open" Huge Gates major discoveries. I have focused on the railroad yard and the Elm St Extension which researchers are not interested in. This is because there is no $$ to be made investigating these areas. These areas remain virgin research territory.
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Your giving anyone directions to anywhere would result in them being forced to stop at a gas station and asking for directions. Simply put, Darnell is almost directly in line with "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness back inside the railroad yard. THAT is what matters. And your "curb" stuff carries absolutely no weight. The dirt portion of the Elm St Ext that we see both No Glove Cop and Harkness standing on, does a "Dog Leg" to the viewer's (R). That dirt portion of the Elm St Extension is NOT close to being in direct line with your Elm St Extension curb. Like 99% of the JFK Assassination Researchers, you are unfamiliar with both the Elm St Extension and the railroad yard. This is why I have made the: (1) "Getaway" car, (2) "That Ain't Haygood", and, (3) "wide open" Huge Gates major discoveries. I have focused on the railroad yard and the Elm St Extension which researchers are not interested in. This is because there is no $$ to be made investigating these areas. These areas remain virgin research territory.
RS: your "curb" stuff carries absolutely no weight
the "curb stuff" shows where Darnell was standing on the north/south axis when he was filming Walthers, Harkness, and the motorcycle cop whom you deny is Haygood. And that he was much further south than you want to admit.
RS: The dirt portion of the Elm St Ext that we see both No Glove Cop and Harkness standing on, does a "Dog Leg" to the viewer's (R)
As I've already mentioned, you can see a line of bollards between Harkness' and the motorcycle cop's position. If they were both standing on opposite sides of the dirt road, those bollards would run across the road, making it useless as a road. So the dirt road is not between those two policemen, QED.
That dirt portion of the Elm St Extension is NOT close to being in direct line with your Elm St Extension curb.
That's good, because Darnell and Harkness are both south of the dirt road.
Like 99% of the JFK Assassination Researchers, you are unfamiliar with both the Elm St Extension and the railroad yard.
Apparently, I'm much more aware of what's there than you are. Otherwise you would have understood the significance of the line of bollards between Harkness and the MC.
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Clearly the answer must be that there were 2 6th floor TSBD assassins dressed as plainclothes officers who waited 5 minutes after shooting to walk down 6 flights of stairs and on their way, cut the power to the elevators when they heard the voices of Luke Mooney asking Victoria Adams how to operate the elevator. 🥸
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RS: your "curb" stuff carries absolutely no weight
the "curb stuff" shows where Darnell was standing on the north/south axis when he was filming Walthers, Harkness, and the motorcycle cop whom you deny is Haygood. And that he was much further south than you want to admit.
RS: The dirt portion of the Elm St Ext that we see both No Glove Cop and Harkness standing on, does a "Dog Leg" to the viewer's (R)
As I've already mentioned, you can see a line of bollards between Harkness' and the motorcycle cop's position. If they were both standing on opposite sides of the dirt road, those bollards would run across the road, making it useless as a road. So the dirt road is not between those two policemen, QED.
That dirt portion of the Elm St Extension is NOT close to being in direct line with your Elm St Extension curb.
That's good, because Darnell and Harkness are both south of the dirt road.
Like 99% of the JFK Assassination Researchers, you are unfamiliar with both the Elm St Extension and the railroad yard.
Apparently, I'm much more aware of what's there than you are. Otherwise you would have understood the significance of the line of bollards between Harkness and the MC.
Just take a look at the Towner Film. After the JFK Limo turns onto Elm St and permits unobstructed viewing of the Traffic Signal, Fedora Man can be seen standing close enough to the Traffic Signal to touch it.
The dirt road is roughly 2 lanes wide. "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness are on opposite sides of that 2 lanes wide dirt road.
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Just take a look at the Towner Film. After the JFK Limo turns onto Elm St and permits unobstructed viewing of the Traffic Signal, Fedora Man can be seen standing close enough to the Traffic Signal to touch it.
The dirt road is roughly 2 lanes wide. "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness are on opposite sides of that 2 lanes wide dirt road.
We aren't talking about the Towner film, "Fedora Man" or a traffic signal here. They have no import on the issues in question.
Again --for the third time-- the Darnell film shows a line of bollards that run between Harkness and the motorcycle cop. Because of this, the dirt road cannot be between Harkness and the MC. Period.
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Again --for the third time-- the Darnell film shows a line of bollards that run between Harkness and the motorcycle cop. Because of this, the dirt road cannot be between Harkness and the MC. Period.
Shocker: Royell Storing is beyond dead wrong with his amateur photo and film analysis.
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Where these 2 plainclothes men the same 2 men that Baker and Truly run into at the rear elevators on the ground floor as early as 75 post shots?
If so , were those the same 2 plainclothes men that DPD officer Barnett saw at the rear loading dock within less than 60 sec post shots?
Were those 2 plainclothes men the same 2 men that Adams and Stiles saw when they had exited via the TSBD back door( about 60 sec post shots also) , and the men having told Adams to go back inside? A&S apparently ignored the command and went outside anyway because tgey arrived out front by the TSBD main entrance ( where they were photographed)
If those 2 plainclothes men were the ones outside that Adams and Barnett saw at 60 sec post shots , then perhaps they went into TSBD via rear door and were standing near the rear elevators to be seen by Truly and Baker at 70-75 sec post shots mark.
Then perhaps they went up the staircases just after Baker and Truly, with intent to help search some of the floors.
Why Baker did not ask who the men were or attempt to coordinate with them searching the floors , is a mystery.
Why there was no conversation with nor coordination with Luke Mooney when the 2 plainclothes men come back the stairs is equally a mystery.
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We aren't talking about the Towner film, "Fedora Man" or a traffic signal here. They have no import on the issues in question.
Again --for the third time-- the Darnell film shows a line of bollards that run between Harkness and the motorcycle cop. Because of this, the dirt road cannot be between Harkness and the MC. Period.
I am talking about the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension. When the alleged motorcycle cop changes directions, and walks DOWNWARD onto that dirt road, there are NO BOLLARDS between Officer Harkness and this alleged motorcycle cop. If the lack of clarity on the Darnell Film you are looking at is clouding your judgement, a good overhead view of this portion of the railroad yard will help. I can direct you to such if need be. Just let me know.
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I am talking about the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension. When the alleged motorcycle cop changes directions, and walks DOWNWARD onto that dirt road, there are NO BOLLARDS between Officer Harkness and this alleged motorcycle cop. If the lack of clarity on the Darnell Film you are looking at is clouding your judgement, a good overhead view of this portion of the railroad yard will help. I can direct you to such if need be. Just let me know.
RS: I am talking about the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension.
So why did you bring up the limo turn and traffic signal in the Wegman film?
there are NO BOLLARDS between Officer Harkness and this alleged motorcycle cop.
Yes there are! Not only can you see many of them in the Darnell film, others are made obvious when the motorcycle cop walks behind them.
Here, bollards are outlined in red. Note that one is in Harkness' shadow:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs658FVF/Haygood-RR-Yard-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Tpn4W6sB)
Here, "B" marks where the line of bollards is. You can see that two of them are silhouetted by the MC as he walks behind them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDLdqf4g/Haygood-RR-Yard-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jLyFJb1p)
Here he is a half step later:
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4zy21B4/Haygood-RR-Yard-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYFMVjcL)
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I am talking about the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension. When the alleged motorcycle cop changes directions, and walks DOWNWARD onto that dirt road, there are NO BOLLARDS between Officer Harkness and this alleged motorcycle cop. If the lack of clarity on the Darnell Film you are looking at is clouding your judgement, a good overhead view of this portion of the railroad yard will help. I can direct you to such if need be. Just let me know.
Bump. The above clearly shows I am talking about, "the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension". That "dirt road" DEAD ENDS into your outlined bollards. The "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness are BOTH on the Elm St Extension when that alleged cop walks between/through the bollards. At this point, the alleged cop and Harkness are physically on the dirt road, and there are no bollards between them. This has consistently been my stated position.
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Bump. The above clearly shows I am talking about, "the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension". That "dirt road" DEAD ENDS into your outlined bollards. The "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness are BOTH on the Elm St Extension when that alleged cop walks between/through the bollards. At this point, the alleged cop and Harkness are physically on the dirt road, and there are no bollards between them. This has consistently been my stated position.
RS: That "dirt road" DEAD ENDS into your outlined bollards
Not true at all. In the Darnell film, the line of cars to the left of the image is clearly seen extending to the west end of the "long house" sitting directly to the east of Bowers' tower. This fact allows us to locate which spur Darnell, Harkness, and the MC are next to. Any aerial image of the RR yard clearly shows that the road crosses that line of cars and continues on. In fact, the dirt road turns to the north and extends well beyond the E-W tracks and to the northern end of the rail yard.
You need to stop just making things up as you go along.
Again, here is an annotated photo showing the railyard:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXnpcSj3/Darnell-Film-Harkness-Position-1.jpg)
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TODD - All you need to do is watch the recently discovered Darnell Film Snippet to see where "No Glove Cop" is positioned inside the railroad yard. Go to YOU TUBE and search - "The Full Darnell Snippet" by - "The JFK Theorist" (23:32 - 23:40). This is not complicated.
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TODD - All you need to do is watch the recently discovered Darnell Film Snippet to see where "No Glove Cop" is positioned inside the railroad yard. Go to YOU TUBE and search - "The Full Darnell Snippet" by - "The JFK Theorist" (23:32 - 23:40). This is not complicated.
You saw the screencaps I just posted of Harkness and the MC. Those are in fact from the exact Youtube video you keep referring us to.
I'm not the one who is confused.
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You saw the screencaps I just posted of Harkness and the MC. Those are in fact from the exact Youtube video you keep referring us to.
I'm not the one who is confused.
What you posted does not show the Darnell footage of the Elm St Extension. That Elm St Extension footage leads directly to your posted still frames. It shows us exactly where "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness are. If you are aware of this footage, why are you avoiding it?
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What you posted does not show the Darnell footage of the Elm St Extension. That Elm St Extension footage leads directly to your posted still frames. It shows us exactly where "No Glove Cop" and Officer Harkness are. If you are aware of this footage, why are you avoiding it?
You said that I should look at "'The Full Darnell Snippet' by - 'The JFK Theorist' (23:32 - 23:40)." The screen caps I posted are taken from the 23:34-23:36 interval of the same video. That is, they come from within the interval you pointed to. Do you not even know what film you are looking at?
Harkness and the MC do not appear in the part pointing down the Elm St extension (23:32-23:34), so it cannot not itself show "exactly where [they] are." It does show that Darnell is south of the TSBD, about where the ESX curb would be if it continued straight west. Just like I showed in the annotated aerial photo of the RR yard. This puts him, Harkness, and the MC south of where you so desperately want to believe.
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You said that I should look at "'The Full Darnell Snippet' by - 'The JFK Theorist' (23:32 - 23:40)." The screen caps I posted are taken from the 23:34-23:36 interval of the same video. That is, they come from within the interval you pointed to. Do you not even know what film you are looking at?
Harkness and the MC do not appear in the part pointing down the Elm St extension (23:32-23:34), so it cannot not itself show "exactly where [they] are." It does show that Darnell is south of the TSBD, about where the ESX curb would be if it continued straight west. Just like I showed in the annotated aerial photo of the RR yard. This puts him, Harkness, and the MC south of where you so desperately want to believe.
It is the ENTIRE Darnell Film Snippet that has to be viewed in order to appreciate what we are seeing. Also, a sound foundation regarding the Elm Street Extension is required. You obviously do Not have this. This is why you are unable to connect-the-dots.
After making his 12:36 police radio transmission, Officer Harkness was filmed by Martin as he took Amos Euins down the "wide open" Elm St Ext on the back of his 3 wheel motorcycle. Harkness then loaded Euins into Inspector Sawyer's car. Euins sitting in the back of Sawyer's car, with the Harkness motorcycle double parked next to that same car, was filmed by National Geographic. The Elm St Ext can be seen to be STILL WIDE OPEN on this Nat Geo film footage. The Darnell Film shows the Elm St Ext to be JAMMED WITH PEOPLE at the very same time that Officer Harkness and "No Glove Cop" are filmed together. This timestamps Harkness and "No Glove Cop" being filmed together on the Darnell Film at 12:38. Officer Haywood made a 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle that was parked at the Elm St curb near the Triple Underpass. Haygood's 12:35 radio transmission means the "No Glove Cop" on the 12:38 Darnell Film snippet can NOT be Officer Haygood. Which begs the question. Who is this "No Glove Cop" that was filmed with Officer Harkness?
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It is the ENTIRE Darnell Film Snippet that has to be viewed in order to appreciate what we are seeing. Also, a sound foundation regarding the Elm Street Extension is required. You obviously do Not have this. This is why you are unable to connect-the-dots.
After making his 12:36 police radio transmission, Officer Harkness was filmed by Martin as he took Amos Euins down the "wide open" Elm St Ext on the back of his 3 wheel motorcycle. Harkness then loaded Euins into Inspector Sawyer's car. Euins sitting in the back of Sawyer's car, with the Harkness motorcycle double parked next to that same car, was filmed by National Geographic. The Elm St Ext can be seen to be STILL WIDE OPEN on this Nat Geo film footage. The Darnell Film shows the Elm St Ext to be JAMMED WITH PEOPLE at the very same time that Officer Harkness and "No Glove Cop" are filmed together. This timestamps Harkness and "No Glove Cop" being filmed together on the Darnell Film at 12:38. Officer Haywood made a 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle that was parked at the Elm St curb near the Triple Underpass. Haygood's 12:35 radio transmission means the "No Glove Cop" on the 12:38 Darnell Film snippet can NOT be Officer Haygood. Which begs the question. Who is this "No Glove Cop" that was filmed with Officer Harkness?
RS: It is the ENTIRE Darnell Film Snippet that has to be viewed in order to appreciate what we are seeing. Also, a sound foundation regarding the Elm Street Extension is required. You obviously do Not have this. This is why you are unable to connect-the-dots.
I've already addressed both parts of the snipped. That is, the "ENTIRE" thing. I've already demonstrated that Darnell's position is south of the TSBD and to the west of it, along the second RR spur. The annotated photo I've twice posted shows this, and why. It also shows a parked car and a line of bollards between Harkness and the motorcycle cop, which puts Harkness south of the dirt road. Harkness position is then almost perfectly due west of the place he encountered Euins near the SE corner of the TSBD annex.
RS: was filmed by National Geographic.
NatGeo didn't have a cameraman in Dealey Plaza that day. No idea where you got this.
The Elm St Ext can be seen to be STILL WIDE OPEN on this Nat Geo film footage. The Darnell Film shows the Elm St Ext to be JAMMED WITH PEOPLE at the very same time that Officer Harkness and "No Glove Cop" are filmed together.
The area in the Darnell film where you see the crowd of people clustered together is the triangular area bounded on the south by the rear of the pergola, on the west be the first RR spur, and on the north/east by the dirt road where it turns and starts running to the northwest. This puts them somewhat to the west and south of the annex. Darnell is filming this from a position west of this triangular area. Martin filmed Harnkess driving down the ESX from a position directly south of the annex. So the crowd is beween Darnell's and Martin's positions. Which is behind Martin while when was filming, so you wouldn't see that big crowd in his shot. You still do see a small crowd standing in the street along the south side of the ESX, but they likely had enough sense not to bock the roadway with a police officer coming through.
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After 62+ years, I can understand you're having problems accepting that which has been right in front of you. But there it is, right there. The Elm St Ext is jammed with people. They have: (1) drifted down from the TSBD, (2) to Inspector Sawyer's car with Euins inside, and, (3) now stand parallel to the loading dock. This is ALL IMAGE DOCUMENTED starting with the Allen Photo taken in front of the TSBD. That photo shows these very same people beginning their journey as they mill around there. Just focus your attention on that Old Man wearing the screwy hat. He's the guy the kids are kinda heckling. These people are nowhere close to the rear of the Pergola. That's just flat-out wrong.
It's evident that you are not familiar with the Nat Geo clip I referenced. You could fire a canon ball down the Elm St Ext on this footage. This footage shows how clear the Elm Ext is at that point in time. And this Nat Geo clip also shows Officer Harkness's #99 3 wheel motorcycle double parked alongside Inspector Sawyer's car. Inspector Sawyer did Not arrive at the TSBD until 12:35. Officer Harkness made a 12:36 radio transmission that he was bringing Euins to the TSBD. And we see the Elm St Ext is wide open at 12:37 on this Nat Geo film snippet. By 12:38 the Elm St Ext is jammed packed due to the people filtering down from the TSBD. This is also when we see Harkness and the "No Glove Cop" together on the Darnell film.
It is physically impossible for Officer Harkness and Officer Haygood to be filmed together by Darnell. Haygood made a 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle over by the Triple Underpass. Harkness made his 12:36 radio transmission mentioned above. That "No Glove Cop" is not Officer Haygood. I have proven this via Image Evidence and the Documented DPD Radio Transmissions by Haygood and Harkness. This is a slam dunk.
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After 62+ years, I can understand you're having problems accepting that which has been right in front of you.
You're the one having problems. Mitch Todd just deflated your nonsensical "Elm Street Extension" balloon.
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You're the one having problems. Mitch Todd just deflated your nonsensical "Elm Street Extension" balloon.
Tommy, are you up to actually doing some of your Own Research? This is much different than merely endorsing somebody else's say-so.
Go over to YOU TUBE and search: "The Full Darnell Film" by - The JFK Theorist (23:32 - 23:33). You can see the railroad spur closest to the TSBD. You can also see well down into the Elm St Ext. You can easily see the Huge Gates. And you can also see throngs of people stretched across & down that street. I have done the research. Now, how about You?
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After 62+ years, I can understand you're having problems accepting that which has been right in front of you. But there it is, right there. The Elm St Ext is jammed with people. They have: (1) drifted down from the TSBD, (2) to Inspector Sawyer's car with Euins inside, and, (3) now stand parallel to the loading dock. This is ALL IMAGE DOCUMENTED starting with the Allen Photo taken in front of the TSBD. That photo shows these very same people beginning their journey as they mill around there. Just focus your attention on that Old Man wearing the screwy hat. He's the guy the kids are kinda heckling. These people are nowhere close to the rear of the Pergola. That's just flat-out wrong.
It's evident that you are not familiar with the Nat Geo clip I referenced. You could fire a canon ball down the Elm St Ext on this footage. This footage shows how clear the Elm Ext is at that point in time. And this Nat Geo clip also shows Officer Harkness's #99 3 wheel motorcycle double parked alongside Inspector Sawyer's car. Inspector Sawyer did Not arrive at the TSBD until 12:35. Officer Harkness made a 12:36 radio transmission that he was bringing Euins to the TSBD. And we see the Elm St Ext is wide open at 12:37 on this Nat Geo film snippet. By 12:38 the Elm St Ext is jammed packed due to the people filtering down from the TSBD. This is also when we see Harkness and the "No Glove Cop" together on the Darnell film.
It is physically impossible for Officer Harkness and Officer Haygood to be filmed together by Darnell. Haygood made a 12:35 radio transmission from his motorcycle over by the Triple Underpass. Harkness made his 12:36 radio transmission mentioned above. That "No Glove Cop" is not Officer Haygood. I have proven this via Image Evidence and the Documented DPD Radio Transmissions by Haygood and Harkness. This is a slam dunk.
I take it, by "National Geographic film" you are referring to the second episode ("Manhunt") of the National Geographic series "JFK: One Day in America" and that you are specifically referring to a clip that begins about nine minutes into the episode. A clip showing a blue-hatted DPD office carrying a shotgun across Elm behind Sawyer's car and Harkness' trike?
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I take it, by "National Geographic film" you are referring to the second episode ("Manhunt") of the National Geographic series "JFK: One Day in America" and that you are specifically referring to a clip that begins about nine minutes into the episode. A clip showing a blue-hatted DPD office carrying a shotgun across Elm behind Sawyer's car and Harkness' trike?
Nat Geo (8:55 - 8:57) & "The Full Darnell Film" by - "The JFK Theorist" (23:32 - 23:40)
Nat Geo - Shows the Elm St Extension to be empty of people. Amos Euins is sitting inside Inspector Sawyer's car and Officer Harkness's 3 wheel motorcycle is double parked next to Inspector Sawyer's Car. (Time Stamp)
"The Full Darnell Film" - Shows the Elm St Extension now jammed with people. Officer Harkness is filmed providing security behind the TSBD. (Time Stamp)
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RS: I am talking about the dirt road portion of the Elm St Extension.
So why did you bring up the limo turn and traffic signal in the Wegman film?
there are NO BOLLARDS between Officer Harkness and this alleged motorcycle cop.
Yes there are! Not only can you see many of them in the Darnell film, others are made obvious when the motorcycle cop walks behind them.
Here, bollards are outlined in red. Note that one is in Harkness' shadow:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs658FVF/Haygood-RR-Yard-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Tpn4W6sB)
Here, "B" marks where the line of bollards is. You can see that two of them are silhouetted by the MC as he walks behind them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDLdqf4g/Haygood-RR-Yard-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jLyFJb1p)
Here he is a half step later:
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4zy21B4/Haygood-RR-Yard-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYFMVjcL)
12:35 - DPD Motorcycle Officer Haygood makes documented radio transmission from his motorcycle parked near the Triple Underpass
12:36 - DPD Officer Harkness makes a documented radio transmission that he is bringing a witness/Amos Euins to the TSBD. Harkness then loads Euins into the backseat of Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD. Harkness is then instructed to secure the area behind the TSBD.
Above, we see Officer Harkness has followed his orders with respect to securing the area behind the TSBD. The time of the above would be 12:38 PM. This makes it physically impossible for the above DPD Motorcycle Cop to be Officer Haygood. Haygood having made his 12:35 radio transmission from his parked motorcycle near the Triple Underpass.